Dáil debates

Wednesday, 5 July 2017

12:00 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday, agents from the European Commission competition directorate raided the offices of motor insurance providers in Ireland as part of an investigation into anti-competitive practices. The Commission said it had concerns that the companies involved may have engaged in anti-competitive practices in breach of European Union anti-trust rules that prohibit cartels and restrictive business practices or abuse of a dominant market position. In a separate development, it emerged that the offices of Insurance Ireland were visited by compliance officers as part of a European Union investigation into access to two databases used by insurance providers in the Republic. The investigations are on foot of complaints from new entrants to the market. The databases involved are Insurance Link and the Integrated Information Data Service, which were dealt with by an Oireachtas committee in some length over a year ago.

When most people heard this news, they said at long last somebody is doing something to stop the great rip-off of consumers by motor insurance companies and the insurance industry in general. We have witnessed increases of over 60% or more since 2011, 51% from 2014 onwards in motor insurance itself. These are extraordinary increases which people have experienced. People are generally fed up with what they perceive to be total inaction and ineffective interventions to give some fair play to consumers. They feel there are many platitudes and reports but no action. Essentially, it seems the Government stood by while these incredible increases were allowed to take place without any effective intervention.

Back in November, the Oireachtas all-party committee on finance finalised its report and raised the necessity of access to the two databases referred to as a matter of urgency. That recommendation was based on an earlier Department of Finance report in June 2016. Essentially, it seems it has taken Europe and the European Commission to shine a light on this, shake it up and seriously engage with the issues. It is not just car insurance but other areas of insurance. Many businesses have come under pressure in this regard. Most people would accept that when they went looking for car insurance over the past several years that there was little evidence of any competition in the marketplace.

Will the Taoiseach accept that the Government's response, as well as that of the agencies involved such as the Central Bank, raises questions as to how the insurance industry has been progressing in recent times? Will he accept the Government's response has been pathetically slow in dealing with this crisis for many consumers? Is the tolerance threshold for anti-competitive behaviour too high? That is a fundamental question we need to ask ourselves. Why has access to the two databases, in particular, been so restrictive? The industry has made all sorts of claims over the past several years, but they are not verifiable because of the absence of transparent comprehensive data.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to comment in detail on yesterday’s raids because they form part of an ongoing investigation by European authorities. Nobody in this House wants to say anything that could prejudice that investigation.

However, the whole issue of rising insurance costs is a big one and is severely impacting on individuals, families and businesses. It is not just the rising cost of motor insurance, but also home and business insurance, all of which have gone up considerably in recent years and have had a considerable impact on households and businesses.

Much action has been taken. As the Deputy will be aware, over the past several months, the insurance task force, headed up by the then Minister of State, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, reported and measures have been taken to implement its findings, including a fraud register, changes to the book of quantum and legislation, just approved by the Cabinet, to ensure better use of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board. We are already seeing results. For example, this year so far, insurance costs have moderated and, in some cases, have actually fallen.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Where?

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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In Canada?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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However, what we want to see is a significant improvement in insurance costs, not just moderation.

The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission advised the Department of Finance that the raids in question were not connected to its current investigation of the motor industry. In addition, a press release from the European Commission stated:

The European Commission can confirm that [on 4 July 2017] its officials carried out unannounced inspections at the premises of companies active in motor insurance in the Republic of Ireland.

The Commission has concerns that the companies involved may have engaged in anti-competitive practices in breach of EU anti-trust rules that prohibit cartels and restrictive business practices and/or abuse of a dominant market position.

The Commission officials were accompanied by their counterparts from the Irish Competition and Consumer Protection Commission.

Unannounced inspections are a preliminary step into suspected anti-competitive practices. The fact that the Commission carries out such inspections does not mean that the companies are guilty of anti-competitive behaviour nor does it prejudge the outcome of the investigation. The Commission respects the rights of defence, in particular the right of companies to be heard in any [anti-trust] proceedings.

There is no legal deadline to complete inquiries into anti-competitive conduct. Their duration depends on a number of factors, including the complexity of each case, the extent to which the companies concerned co-operate with the Commission and the exercise of the rights of defence.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We all know the last section. However, people will be somewhat taken aback by the Taoiseach’s comment that we are getting results. Most people are angry when the car insurance bill comes in. It is a serious hit on people's disposable income. When one looks at the scale of the increases over the past four to five years, over 60% from 2012 onwards, these are extraordinary increases. Task forces have done nothing. I recall in the early 2000s when the Personal Injuries Assessment Board was established, it was effective at that time in getting spiralling costs under control.

There seems to have been an acceptance of the insurance industry’s claims around the high cost of awards, etc, without verification. The 2016 Oireachtas committee recommended an integrated insurance database service be completed as a matter of urgency, that it must be independently verified, policed by the Central Bank of Ireland to ensure it is correctly populated, that it becomes an open source of information available to all insurance companies, all brokers and intermediaries, and any foreign insurance companies seeking to enter the Irish insurance market. In other words, there is a sense of a closed shop to new entrants and the lack of competition is an area the Government has not addressed over the past several years. It has been pathetically slow in following through on recommendations made. It has taken the European Commission to wake everybody up in official Ireland with regard to the insurance industry. It has been an incredible and unacceptable rip-off of customers in our society. Who protects the consumer?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has exceeded his time.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is the tolerance threshold too high for anti-competitive forces in our economy and society? That is the basic question I want to put to the Taoiseach given what has happened over the past several years.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The actions that occurred yesterday, the actions taken by the Competition Authority in the past and by the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission in recent times, show real evidence that action is being taken to enforce competition law and ensure no collusion or cartels exist among businesses seeking to fix prices.

We all acknowledge in this House that insurance costs have increased considerably in the past couple of years and that this has had an impact on motor, home and business insurance which, of course, affects individuals, families, businesses and homeowners. That is why we established the task force under the Minister, Deputy Murphy. That task force reported not too long ago. As I mentioned earlier, measures are being taken to moderate the rise in insurance costs. The rise has moderated. It is now a question of bringing those costs down. It is important that insurance costs do come down. The Government will take whatever actions it can take to ensure this. It could be achieved, for example, through better use of the Personal Injuries Board, putting together the necessary databases, using a register of fraud and by having a revised quantum, the work on which is now under way. In addition, the building of a real Single Market across Europe in terms of services is a factor. We often talk about a Single Market in Europe but it is evident in some areas that we do not really have one. It should be much easier for people in Ireland to buy their insurance from other countries.

12:10 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Government is now over a month behind in allocating special needs assistants, SNAs, to schools for the forthcoming school year. This comes hot on the heels of an overwhelming number of appeals by schools regarding their special needs allocation under the new resource model. These delays are causing serious distress in families and communities. Parents of children with special needs are this morning at their wits' end. They do not know whether their child will have access to an SNA in September or, if they do, how many hours of SNA support they will receive.

As we know, SNAs help children to feel safe and secure in meeting the challenges of school. They focus on the specific challenges of children with special needs and help them to cope with and overcome them. These children will struggle in mainstream school settings without the support of an SNA. The work of an SNA is very valuable. Knowing that they will have such support is a great source of confidence for children and parents during the back-to-school period. The delay has robbed children and their parents of that confidence. School has now finished for the summer so schools are not in a position to make plans or prepare children for potential changes in the new term. School principals are placed in the extremely difficult position of not being able to tell SNAs employed by their school whether they will have a job when the children come back in September.

I have been contacted by numerous SNAs expressing their fears for the future. One wrote to me and asked how what is happening could be fair on SNAs. She stated they deserve respect and to know where their future lies. She contends it is the same old story every year, involving uncertainty and unease. She stated she is a parent to two children and has a mortgage. She claims SNAs need answers and, more important, stability regarding their future. Does the Taoiseach believe it is acceptable to leave children, parents and SNAs in this position of uncertainty and fear?

Schools, parents and children are now in limbo over the lack of clarity as to the resources that will be available in September. This is not good enough. There really is no excuse. The kind of slapdash approach to the allocations contrasts sharply with how schools are treated if they miss deadlines for applications for resources. The Taoiseach and Minister for Education and Skills need to ensure this critical information on allocations is provided to schools as a matter of urgency. The Taoiseach also needs to review his procedures to ensure the information is provided every year in good time. What is the cause of the current delay? Will the Taoiseach now tell the children, parents and SNAs when the allocations are to be finally made?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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We will all agree that the provision of SNAs for children with special educational needs is essential. We want all children to be able to avail themselves fully of the educational opportunities that are made available to them in our schools. The Government is absolutely committed to that. We have shown proof of that in recent years. There are now approximately 13,000 SNAs. There are more SNAs than gardaí, for example. In addition, almost 20% of the education budget is spent on special education. That is good evidence of the Government's commitment. It is putting manpower and money behind its commitment.

The Cabinet discussed this matter this morning and made two decisions. The first was to allocate an additional 975 SNAs for September. The Minister, Deputy Bruton, will be detailing that announcement in the next day or two. It is July so people will know well before September what allocation they are going to get. The first decision was to allocate an additional 975 SNAs. The second was that we would not decide in the same way again in that we are not going to have this process we have had for a number of years now, whereby decisions on the number of SNAs are made relatively late in the year and into the summer. The first decision was to have 975 additional SNAs allocated for the forthcoming school year. The second decision was that we would make this part of the normal Estimates process so we will know long in advance what the allocation for 2018 will be, exactly for the reason the Deputy outlined, namely, the fact that people should not have to wait until July to find out what is available in September.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The figures the Taoiseach sets out and the percentage of the education budget allocated for special education, resources and supports are testimony to the need within the education system. The evidence of the Government's commitment in this area is fairly scant and mixed given that, year on year, families and children are left in limbo, as I have outlined.

I am very pleased to hear there will be additional resources. I look forward to hearing the Minister setting out the details. This, however, does not answer the central question that is on the minds of SNAs and parents and causing distress to some children. For the next school year, commencing in September, when will people know whether they will have the support of an SNA? What will be the extent of that support? When will schools be in a position to say to SNAs they have a job?

I look forward to the Minister setting out the new procedure that the Taoiseach has referred to. God knows, it is convoluted. It is not helped and is in fact aggravated by the uncertainty in this sector. What caused the delay? Will SNAs and families hear this week or next week whether the SNAs will have a job? Can we have a date, please?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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They will hear this week. As I said, there will be an additional 975 SNAs in place for September. The Minister, Deputy Bruton, will give the detail in a statement this week. Therefore, everyone will know this week where they stand for September. In future years, the decision will be made much earlier because it will be part of the normal Estimates process, which is in October. There will be plenty of notice for the first quarter of 2018.

The Deputy is absolutely correct that the need is great. The response, however, is also great. Let me give some examples of the kind of response the Government has put in place in recent years to assist children in education with special educational needs. The budget for special needs has increased by 32% since 2011. It is now €1.68 billion. The number of SNAs has increased by 23% since 2011, from just over 10,000 to 13,000. The number of special classes has increased by 120% since 2011. That is just to give a few examples of the very real response that the Government has put in place to the very real and enormous need that exists.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The visit yesterday of the Canadian Prime Minister, Mr. Trudeau, was an important one. While socks and jogging might have captured the headlines, it seems clear from Prime Minister Trudeau's comments that he was here for one specific reason, building support for the free trade agreement between Canada and the European Union, CETA. Like most Members of this House, I understand the benefits of globalised trade. Such trade has reduced global poverty and has enriched many lives and brought people back to work. We must also be aware of the negative impacts of globalisation, however. CETA has been a long time coming. It is welcome that it proposes to replace investor-state dispute settlements, which were secretive arbitration panels that allowed investors to challenge government regulation behind closed doors. The Japan-EU deal has been grappling with this exact issue. While a move away from the existing model may be welcome, replacing it with investment courts does not go nearly far enough.

The proposed courts are not transparent and they pay little attention to democratic politics or the right of individual countries to regulate in their own national interest. As a country, we have suffered immensely as a result of light touch regulation, or deregulation. The banking crisis and much of the shoddy building work in this State over the last 20 years are testament to that. Therefore, we have more reason than most to question any structures that would allow investors or companies to challenge the robust regulation we now have. As The Financial Times- no bastion of left-wing thinking - has pointed out, in highly developed legal systems, including those of the EU, Canada and Japan, there is really no need for a separate adjudication forum for investors. Therefore, there is much political reason to insist on our own domestic courts. Japan, Canada and the EU should be comfortable with the national courts making decisions where conflicts arise, in particular given the presence of international treaty obligations of non-discriminatory treatments for investors and companies.

Several months have now passed since the Seanad voted for a variety of reasons against the ratification of the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA. Can the Taoiseach indicate the view of Government on the vote of the Seanad in the first instance and can he tell the House when he will bring the agreement for formal decision and ratification before the House?

12:20 pm

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The visit of Prime Minister Trudeau to Ireland was a very welcome visit. The purpose of the visit was to cement the bonds of friendship that exist between our two countries and governments. We discussed many different issues in our meetings, but free trade and CETA, which is a free trade agreement between the EU and Canada, were things we discussed in depth. While some countries may be turning their backs on free trade, this country, those in the EU and Canada are absolutely committed to it. We understand that free trade in the round makes us all better off and creates good jobs and opportunities for businesses and individuals. Both countries are very committed to CETA and want to see it implemented as soon as possible.

While there are always arguments over free trade agreements, once they are in place very few people want to pull back from them. That is why we are trying to retain the free trade agreements we have with the UK because we know they make us better off. That is also why we joined the EU. We all know the EU has made us better off. CETA will be no different. It will be a successful and progressive free trade agreement that creates jobs and opportunities for people. That is what government is all about.

It is intended that provisional ratification will occur in the next couple of months. That will give us about 80% of the benefits of the deal. We will remove tariffs from the vast majority of goods that are traded between the two countries. We do not have a date for formal ratification, which involves the court procedure that the Deputy mentioned, as yet. There is no timeline for it. Only two countries in the EU have so far ratified it and we do not have any plans to do so in the next couple of months, but will do so in due course. What is crucial to us is provisional ratification because that is what removes the tariff barriers. Removing the tariff barriers is the mechanism by which we will get the most benefits economically.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Most people in this House and in most arms of the community - labour, employers, agriculture workers and so on - support the concept of free trade. However, when there are issues to be addressed, we as an elected assembly have a responsibility to address them ensure we have as much support for trade agreements that are beneficial to an open economy like ours. That means having a proper debate in the House, ventilating real concerns in an open and honest way and finding solutions that will bring the bulk of our people with us. Even in advance of the provisional ratification, will the Taoiseach arrange for a proper debate in this House with a formal motion put by Government so that we can address the concerns outlined by various elements in society and build the biggest consensus we can build for an agreement that meets those concerns?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I very much agree with the Deputy's sentiment. In Ireland, labour and employers support free trade. Left, right and centre support free trade. It was not always so and I am glad that it is one of the areas in which that argument has been won in the past couple of decades. We have a vast political consensus in Ireland in favour of free trade and its benefits to business, individuals and the economy. Ratification of the agreement in full will require a motion and a debate in the Dáil. We have not scheduled that yet but as EU countries ratify the agreement, we will have a debate in the Dáil and a motion on it. We do not have any plans for a motion or debate on the provisional ratification, because all that involves-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There was a Fianna Fáil motion last week on CETA.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----is reducing the tariff barriers. Obviously, if the Deputy wants to have that, it could be discussed with the Business Committee or perhaps be done in his party's time.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There was a motion passed on CETA last week.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Glaoim ar an Teachta Eamon Ryan.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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After last night's debate on waste, I went home to my own house to see what we were doing. There is a cupboard in which we put waste before it goes into the bin. I am sure everyone else knows the expression: when I opened up the cupboard, suddenly an avalanche of stuff came out. We are awash with it. We are being drowned in tonnes of plastics.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We are in the Houses of Parliament on national television.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Polypropylene-----

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That is not allowed.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Polyethylene-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Has the Deputy any dirty socks in there?

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Any green tea bags?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Advertisements are not allowed in the House.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Polystyrene-----

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We will have to move on to Questions on Promised Legislation.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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A Leas-Cheann Comhairle-----

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There is no point of order on Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Why can I not ask my question?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is not entitled to have a point of order on Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I can ask my question.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is entitled to ask a question, but I ask him to remove that stuff from the desk.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán FlemingSeán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Recycle it.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There must be some dignity in the House. Normally, the Deputy is-----

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Could the clock be stopped so that I have time to ask the question?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Normally, Deputy Ryan acts in a dignified fashion and I would ask him to continue in that way.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I am acting in a dignified fashion, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Can I ask the question?

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Straight out of the Mattie McGrath school of politics.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy can ask the question. He has one minute left.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Can we restart the clock because I have not had the time to ask it?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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No. The clock has started.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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We are drowning in plastic.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Pay by weight.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputy McGrath.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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The use of plastic has increased 25-fold in my lifetime.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Deputies to please give Deputy Ryan an opportunity.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is growing at 5% per annum. Some 150 million tonnes of that plastic is now in our seas. We are adding a dump truck every minute. We have to stop this and cut out the waste. It is not easy. It takes attention. This is vital to the question of how much people have to pay, because rather than having to pay for all that and work out whether it is recycling, which most of it is not when 40% of that plastic ends up in the dump, we need to start to make it easy for the householder to do the right thing. That is why I make this point, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Yesterday, I wrote a letter to each of the party leaders and group leaders asking if they would support our Waste Reduction Bill, which does two things that the best international research, such as the New Plastics Economy paper from the Ellen MacArthur Foundation, recommends as simple measures in order to start doing the right thing. It proposes the introduction a returned deposit of 10 cent on bottles and containers so that householders, rather than seeing these bottles go out to be dumped, can see them saved, recycled and used again. Second, the Bill proposes a ban on plastic cups. These cups are not recyclable. One would think they were with the logo on them, but they are not. However, there are instead alternatives-----

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy had agreed to remove those items from the desk. The Taoiseach to respond.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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-----such as bioplastic bases, which are usable.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach to respond.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Can I ask my question?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think the Deputy should be acting in that fashion.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I am not being disrespectful. I am just trying to make a point. I also recognise that we have done a lot of good. We have increased our recycling over the last 15 or 20 years. However, at this point when the householder is going to have to pay for all that stuff that goes into the black bin, will the Taoiseach and his Government introduce and support the Waste Reduction Bill that we have produced? Every environmental NGO of note has stated its support for it. I heard Deputy Sherlock make a similar point in the House last night. We have to review what we are doing with Repak and not just change the charging system, but change the way we manage waste.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach to respond.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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Will the Taoiseach support our Bill, give a 10 cent deposit back on these bottles and containers and cut out these coffee cups so that we help people to reduce the amount of waste they create?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I was here when the Deputy introduced the Bill. I have not had the chance to read it yet. We will certainly consider it when it is brought to the floor of the House. I think Deputy Ryan will agree with what we are trying to achieve here. First, we want to reward people who recycle, reuse, compost and reduce their waste. It is not right that somebody who does not do those things should pay the same as somebody who does. We want to make sure people who do the right thing by their community and by the environment, and who reuse, reduce, recycle and compost pay less than those who do not. That is a part of the reason for the move away from flat charges to the pay-by-lift or pay-by-weight arrangement, which already exists in at least half the country.

We also want to make it easier for people to do the right thing and make the right choices. That is why it will now be a requirement to provide the brown bin in any population centre of more than 500. That will be in place quite soon.

In addition, the Minister is looking at introducing large-scale recycling bins outside supermarkets to reduce waste at source in order that people who buy things in a supermarket would be able to dispose of the packaging inside or outside it. For a start, that would be of benefit to them in reducing their waste, but, second, it would make supermarkets and manufacturers think twice about the packaging they use if it went straight back to them and never even managed to make it to somebody's home.

We will also introduce a new scheme to manage end-of-life vehicles to stop and reduce the dumping of vehicles. We will also launch a new scheme to manage waste tyres which we will believe will help to tackle the widespread dumping of used tyres, in country areas in particular.

12:30 pm

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I asked other leaders yesterday whether they would support this Bill and perhaps even go further and give of their time because we do not receive a huge amount of Private Members' time. I am fairly confident that if it were to get onto the floor of the House - I hope it will and if any party wants to help us in that regard, we will work with it - it would carry the day.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I am fairly confident that we would have the numbers in this House to get the measure through. I am supportive of the Minister. It is not an easy job, but he has signalled today that he does not want to change the current system. That is the point I am making. We need to win the hearts and minds of the people and not turn this into another water charges row. We have to be seen as not just changing the charging system but helping people by introducing a deposit refund scheme and cutting out waste at source. This is a very concrete, specific and achievable measure. The Taoiseach will have to win over the Minister and his Department as they do not want to do it because it would be tough and not easy, but it is being done in France where these cups will be banned by 2020. In loads of countries the deposit is given back and they have seen recycling rates go up to 90%. I hope the Bill will be brought to the floor of the House. If we do not have wait several months and can get another party to be the lead party, we would have a majority in the House. I am asking the Government to reconsider its position and support such practical measures in order that the people would know that we were making it easier for them to cut back on the black bin charge.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Government is certainly open to considering any idea that might achieve the objectives we share, which are to reduce waste and protect the environment. To the best of my recollection, the Bill has not yet come before the Cabinet; therefore, there has not yet been a Government decision on it. We will need to study it. First, we need to ensure it will not transgress any rule relating to the Single Market and will not raise revenue implications. If, however, it is something that is being done in other European countries, perhaps it might be done here. The Government has an open mind in considering good ideas that will allow us to reduce waste and protect the environment.