Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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61. To ask the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht if she will report on her Department's work with An Post and the Irish Postmasters' Union regarding the implementation of point 20 of the Action Plan for Rural Development; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [27513/17]

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I congratulate Deputy Michael Ring on being appointed to his ministry. I recall a very heated debate not too long ago when the subject of who was responsible for the post offices at the Cabinet, at the level of Minister or Minister of State, exercised a particular passion on the part of the then Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ring, and the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Denis Naughten. Obviously, today's question arises after some Cabinet changes. First, Deputy Michael Ring is now to be Minister for community and rural affairs. What is his responsibility for the post offices now? Presumably with the rural affairs brief being transferred from the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Heather Humphreys, as we understood from the statement this morning of the Taoiseach, Deputy Michael Ring is now to be responsible for the post office network. Part 20 of the action plan for rural development states, "Oversee and monitor the implementation of actions to support the Post Office Network, arising out of the report of the Post Office Renewal Board and the Post Office Hub Working Group". The question is very simple. The leading executives of the post office network - the leading management of the post office network - have produced a plan for hundreds of post office closures. Under the Government of which I was a member, there were almost no post office closures. What is the Minister going to do about it?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy very much for her good wishes. I am glad to be back on questions that I understand.

A Programme for a Partnership Government made a number of commitments in regard to the post office network that were assigned to my Department. The commitments in question have now been completed or are significantly advanced. Following an extensive deliberations process, I presented the final report of the post office hub working group to the Government in March. This report examined the potential for post offices to act as hubs of economic and social activity, particularly in rural communities, and recommended that a project to test the concept of shared-value co-located post offices should be piloted, initially at four locations.

5 o’clock

There have been a number of developments in relation to postal services generally since A Programme for a Partnership Government was agreed last May, including the commissioning by An Post of a root and branch review of the company. By and large, this has overtaken the work of the post office network renewal board, which reported its findings to An Post in December last year.

Overall responsibility for the postal sector, including the governance of An Post, falls within the remit of the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment and, in light of developments in the sector, it has been agreed that all aspects of the postal services, including the post office network, should transfer to the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment. It will be a matter for that Minister’s Department to oversee the future direction of An Post and the post office network. However, my Department will continue to work closely with the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment where necessary to support the post office network in rural communities.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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When the Minister transferred responsibility for the post office network back to the Minister, Deputy Denis Naughten, notwithstanding the fact that he is now the Minister responsible for rural affairs, he washed his hands of the post office, other than to say God speed and that he will watch how the progress goes. We know from the Kerr report that half the post offices in this country are not commercially viable. The Minister is talking about a study or a pilot with regard to, as I understand it, four post offices. The Minister is known, fairly, I think, as somebody who is quite truthful, honest and open in his answers. Can we get some serious honesty in terms of what is happening to the epayment account? The problem is that many people who use post offices have no form of current banking as referred to in European plans and in Irish plans over a long period of time. What about the motor tax services in the post office? Has the Minister had a chance to discuss that with his colleagues around the Cabinet table? What about the Minister's own four hub pilots? Can he tell us a little bit about what that is going to mean, in particular for hard-pressed rural communities? When I was Minister for Social Protection, I ensured that the social welfare business stayed with the post office as did Deputy Eamon Ó Cuív when he was Minister, even though Fianna Fáil presided over many closures. What is being proposed to the Government is catastrophic.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Above anybody else, the Deputy knows how Government works. She was long enough in government. She knows about delegated orders, responsibility and what happens when somebody is given a task. As a Minister of State, I was given the role of looking at the post office hub working group which I chaired. I made a recommendation to Government. I was delighted that the Government accepted that recommendation. What was accepted was that we would have a pilot scheme run in four post offices to be rolled out to 150 post offices. We needed the pilot scheme first. I could talk to Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív about rural Ireland and I will in a minute. I will tell the Deputy what he did for rural Ireland when he was there.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister will not have a minute.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As I said, the report was accepted by Government. My Department is going to pay the cost of that, which is €100,000. We hope to have services put in, like a peace commissioner service, a one-stop shop for communications, ICT training, expert advice services, collection of motor taxes and so on. In the private sector we have already seen somebody else taking one on in Kildare. When we get these pilot schemes up and running and if they are successful, we will roll them out in 150 post offices. Overall, the responsibility is with the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment. It has responsibility for An Post.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Everybody knows that one of the weakest links in the chain of the protection of rural Ireland is the future viability of post offices. I think we are all agreed on that issue.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I agree with the Deputy, as well as on the issue of fibre broadband.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I worked might and main to ensure that only a very small number of post offices closed during the period when the Labour Party was in government. The Minister has still not answered the principal question. The view has been given by post office management and by the Kerr report that half the post offices in the country are not commercially viable. That means that up to 500 post offices or more could close over a period of time. Of course, I welcome the Minister's pilot initiative, but I question if that is enough to maintain the post office network, or if the demand of many of the elements within the Fine Gael Party to privatise and outsource as much as possible is actually the dominant the philosophy. I acknowledge that the Minister's own philosophy is not that.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Action 20 in the action plan for rural Ireland states,"Oversee and monitor the implementation of actions to support the Post Office Network". It lists the responsible bodies as the Department of Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, An Post and relevant Government Departments. We are beating around the bush too long on the whole post office issue. My question to the Minister is this: is he going to start making decisions? There are a fair number of people in post offices - the truth is told in rural Ireland - who are hanging on and wondering what the Minister is going to do. Let us be straight about it. Some of those would like to get a package and get out because they know there is not a living in it.

It is a favourite topic of people in Dublin that the only thing in rural Ireland is post offices. To be quite honest, for many people fibre broadband outscores the post office network. I hate to say it, but that is the reality and I live in the real rural Ireland and not in some leprechaun rural Ireland. When is the Minister going to start making decisions? Anybody who tells me that it would have been viable to keep every post office that was there for 20 years open is talking tommyrot.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I accept what Deputy Joan Burton said about no closures of post offices. There have been very few in the lifetime of this Government. Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív's Government nearly closed more post offices than there are post offices now. I do not have the figures but I will have them for him the next time.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is the Minister telling me-----

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Wait a minute-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister to continue, without interruption.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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Ciúnas, Éamon.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I will chair the meeting.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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Fadhb ar bith.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Tá Teachta McHugh anseo. Tá fáilte roimhe. Tháinig sé ar deireadh.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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Sin an scéal.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Tá sé cineál deireanach. Thosaigh muid ag a cúig tar éis-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister to continue, without interruption. He has one minute.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputies Joan Burton and Éamon Ó Cuív, who were both senior Ministers in government, know about semi-State companies and that An Post is a semi-State company that is now doing a root and branch review of the whole post office network. I have done my report to Government on the hub. We are now waiting for An Post to come to the Government with whatever proposals it will come with. Therefore, we cannot do anything until the proposals come.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív is quite correct and I will be honest as well as him. We have many post offices. Some of them have a very bright future and some of them have very serious difficulties. I saw some of the transactions that were taking place in some of these post offices. I will be honest. Some of these post offices are not going to survive. We have to make sure that we strengthen the ones that survive and get them whatever they need to assist and help them. However, I cannot interfere with the process of An Post, which is a semi-State company. As previous Ministers, both of the Deputies know that semi-State companies are independent of the Government.