Dáil debates
Tuesday, 9 May 2017
Topical Issue Debate
Special Educational Needs Service Provision
6:35 pm
Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister, Deputy Bruton, for taking this serious Topical Issue matter. Gorey community school is the largest post-primary school in Ireland with 1,577 students. It is an inclusive school with 211 students with identified special educational needs. The school does a lot of good work and is not selective with regard to students with learning difficulties.
There are 40 students in the school with autism spectrum disorder, ASD, for 12 of which the school has applied for two classes comprising six pupils in each. That is the background to what Gorey community school wants to do to ensure these students have the best possible care and opportunity to learn and progress through education.
The application for an ASD unit went through the process but the school was informed that Creagh College, under the patronage of the Waterford-Wexford Education and Training Board, already has such a unit. The unit is in Creagh College but, amazingly, it does not have any students or staff to run it. The students and staff are in one school, but the ASD unit on the other side of Gorey has the physical facility. One could not make it up.
That is the background to where things stand. In a letter to the Department of Education and Skills, the principal of Gorey community school, Mr. Michael Finn, stated, "The fact is that while Creagh College has a physical facility, Gorey community school has the students enrolled and has the responsibility of addressing their [i.e. students with ASD] significant needs which are not being appropriately met in Gorey community school." A note attached to that letter, which also went to the Department, states:
There is no safe space or room available to remove students who present with extremely challenging behaviour. This is impacting on the school's ability to meet these students' complex needs, as in one instance a placement is in danger of becoming untenable.
That suggests to me that the school is doing its very best. It is not good enough for the Department to respond by saying they have spent the money and that the physical space is in another school where there are no students or staff. This matter needs to be brought to a conclusion, so I look forward to the Minister's response.
Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy D'Arcy for raising this matter. The briefing I have is not quite the same as the issue the Deputy has outlined. Perhaps we need to clarify some points. It has certainly not been brought to my attention by the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, which would have responsibility for placing children, that the needs of the children in Gorey community school are not being appropriately met. That is the case the Deputy is making, but that evidence is certainly not available in my Department. I will ask the NCSE to assess the matter.
The Deputy is right in saying that we have provided a new 1,000 pupil school in Creagh College. That is obviously a growing school, and as its numbers grow, it will be fully equipped and staffed both with teachers and SNAs as appropriate. Within that construction, it has been provided with a four classroom special needs unit, with a capacity for 24 students. As those students present themselves, they will be fully equipped with resource teachers and SNAs.
As I understand it, the position in Gorey is that there are 12 children in an ASD unit, so there is provision for an ASD unit in Gorey community college. Between both colleges we have six special needs units. At this point the Department is waiting to see the growth of requirements involved. I will investigate the case the Deputy has made that these children's needs are not being appropriately met. There is a process of appeal to the NCSE and a school would work through its local special needs organiser in respect of any requirement. In turn, the NCSE would identify the most appropriate support.
In a wider context there are 681 children with ASD needs in County Wexford. Some 216 of them are in special classes spanning early childhood, primary and post-primary. A substantial number of children on the ASD spectrum are catered for in mainstream education with appropriate support from resource teachers and SNAs and without necessarily having a specific, dedicated unit.
6 o’clock
The most appropriate level of provision depends on the needs of the child as assessed by the NCSE. The response from my Department, which the Deputy will see, indicates that the NCSE advises that there is enough capacity to meet local needs. Obviously, if it is the case children's needs are not being appropriately met, that would be of concern and the NCSE would assess the position. It would not be a matter or issue on which I, as a Minister, would make a judgment. They would have to be assessed by the NCSE and, in turn, the Department would have to respond to what it identified.
6:45 pm
Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. It is kind of a funny space to be in that the Minister has been given a reply to this Topical Issue debate that is wrong. That is a little bit of my criticism. The NCSE tells him that there is capacity for 24 students. There is that capacity in the education centre in Gorey, but it is in the wrong school. The school in question, which requires two units for 12 students, does not have any space. The school is doing the best it can for those students in the circumstances in which it finds itself, but it is no longer acceptable for this to continue. I find it amazing and it is part of my criticism - the Ceann Comhairle has heard me criticise the responses that come back on some occasions - that what the Minister has been presented with is correct but it is also wrong. It is wrong because the students in the school that has staff have no physical facilities. There is a school located about a mile away that has the facilities, but it does not have any students and has no staff for the requirements. Something needs to give. I ask the Minister to bring this to a conclusion or to ask the NCSE to explain how it could give - and I am trying to be generous - an answer that is misleading in the extreme.
Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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It is unfair to say that it is misleading. My understanding of this, which I will have to get clarified because there is obviously a difference of evidence, is that the Department has responded to the need. As the Deputy rightly says, this is the largest school in the country. The Department has built a new school. That school is to provide for 1,000 children. This is an area that is rapidly expanding. In order to anticipate the need, it built in facilities for 24 children in four ASD units. That is planning for an anticipated need.
It has not been presented to me that Gorey community school is seeking to expand its provision of ASD units. As I understood the matter, it has 12 children in an ASD unit and that is providing the appropriate service for them. That ASD unit was built some time ago, but there are new facilities and existing facilities. As the Deputy has said, there are children in one school whose needs are being met and there is quite a number of children with special needs. They will have resource teaching, SNAs and, where appropriate, ASD units as opposed to mainstream classes allocated to them as the NCSE identifies their needs.
On the advice of the NCSE, the Department has built an expanded facility to provide for the growth in the area and it is making provision for service. It is a bit simplistic to say that the Department is building in one location where there are no teachers and no students. It is a growing school and its enrolment has yet to reach its full level, but naturally, as a rapidly growing area, we would be expected to make provision to expand where needed. The net question that the Deputy is raising - and on which I will seek advice from the NCSE - is whether it is the case that the children in the community school are not being adequately catered for in the ASD units which I understood were there. That is a question that will need to be assessed by appropriate people on the basis of the evidence.
Michael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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To clarify for the Minister, there is no ASD unit in Gorey community school. It is requesting that an ASD unit be built for 12 students in two classes. For the Minister's information, there is no unit. The teachers and students are working in spaces all around the school where they try to do their best. I just want to clarify that as a point of information.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank Deputy D'Arcy. We now move on to the third item, which relates to Deputy Michael Collins seeking to discuss the harvesting of kelp forests in Bantry Bay.
Michael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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No, we may wait. We do not have a Minister to take this.
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Was our item not third?
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will take the Deputy's item-----
Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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It does not matter.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry, Deputy Eugene Murphy's item was fourth. Is the Minster of State, Deputy Breen, taking the matter tabled by Deputies Eugene Murphy and Calleary?
Pat Breen (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Yes. It is actually down as Topical Issue No. 3.
Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is down in front of me as Topical Issue No. 4, but Deputies Eugene Murphy and Calleary may proceed.