Michael Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach the status of the commitment in the programme for Government on political reform. [7364/17]

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on commitments contained in the programme for Government in respect of political reform. [8552/17]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 and 6 together.

A Programme for a Partnership Government was published last May and contains a number of commitments on Dáil and Seanad reform. In December, the Government published a report on the programme setting out the progress made to date across all of Government on implementing the programme. This is the first of many regular reports to be published in addition to the annual report which will be published in May following the Government’s first year in office.

In respect of Dáil reform, this Government continues to build on the Oireachtas reform packages introduced by the previous Administration. Implementation of A Programme for a Partnership Government requires a new relationship between the Government and Oireachtas. This is reflected in significant Dáil reforms that are being implemented, providing a significantly greater role for members of Dáil Éireann. These arrangements require greater collaboration and sharing of information by the Government with the Oireachtas.

Central to our approach for delivering on this ambitious programme is the concept of good faith and no surprises. Following the general election in 2016 this Government, and the previous Government, played a crucial role in the process of Dáil reform including the first election of a Ceann Comhairle by secret ballot, the selection of Oireachtas committee chairs under a d'Hondt system and the establishment of an all-party Dáil reform committee, which has since made a number of recommendations. Within my Department, there is an expanded role for the Chief Whip to support these arrangements including supporting good communication between Departments and the Oireachtas, particularly in terms of progressing Government legislation through the Oireachtas.

The new arrangements include more proactive communication between Ministers and their Departments and Opposition spokespeople and Oireachtas committee chairpersons and Members. It requires greater sharing of information with the Oireachtas to inform its deliberations, for example through the new budgetary procedures, use of pre-legislative scrutiny by committees and more briefing on significant developments or issues. There is a new Dáil business management committee established to discuss and agree on the Dáil schedule, more time for Private Members' business, new arrangements for Topical Issue motions and reformed structures for parliamentary questions. These all require a new approach from Ministers and their Departments and the Government is committed to ensuring it works effectively.

On Seanad reform, several steps were taken by the previous Government in relation to Seanad reform and we continue to progress this matter. The programme for a partnership Government commits to pursuing the implementation of the Manning report as a priority. In response to a suggestion by Deputy Micheál Martin last year, I have indicated that, provided there is all-party support for the Manning Report, the interim implementation body proposed in the report should be set up comprising members of all parties and groups in the Dáil and the Seanad. On foot of this, I wrote to party leaders, Dáil groups and Seanad groups seeking agreement to the setting up of the implementation group and seeking nominees for same. I understand the three groups have not yet responded yet. I believe there is a bit of dispute over who should actually chair the group. I may speak with Deputy Micheál Martin about that matter.

There seem to be what one might call, shall we say, collegial tensions, to put it mildly.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Do tell.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I would be very happy if we could agree on a chair and get on with it.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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God forbid.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It worked out.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, I will not. These things work both ways. A lot of legislation has gone through in Private Members' time and that is now backed up, so obviously parties will have to make a decision on what priorities they want taken through. I am genuinely anxious that this commission would get under way to start to implement the Manning report. I have another name that has come through as well, and I might mention that to Deputy Martin and the other leaders.

At the start of every session Departments are slow to come through with legislation. Nonetheless, there is the amendment Bill setting out the factors which a court may take into account when refusing bail, the Misuse of Drugs (Supervised Injecting Facilities) Bill 2017 and the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Bill 2016. There are also the other works, such as the Action Plan for Rural Development, the plan for the north inner city, the DEIS inclusion plan and the Creative Ireland programme, so there is a great deal of work going on. Therefore, far from being strangled or beaten down, there is a very full programme for all Ministers and I expect them to continue to implement that.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I do not buy into this spin about new politics. What is there is an arrangement which suits Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. I commend the work the Ceann Comhairle has done in terms of bringing in necessary reforms of how we do our business. However, the biggest difficulty is getting answers from Ministers, either in the exchanges in the Chamber or as one goes about trying to make representations on behalf of constituents. The Taoiseach cited the need for greater co-operation and greater information sharing with the Oireachtas.

I will give an example which I am sure matches the experience of all Teachtaí. I am fighting a case for a 42 year old adult with serious issues whose parents can no longer deal with this chap because he has such profound issues. I made representations to the HSE, as other Deputies would. The HSE sent back responses which are not adequate. We then made representations to the Minister. In this case, the Minister for Health referred it to the Minister of State with responsibility for people with disabilities, and we got an answer saying he has referred it back to the HSE. That is the universal experience. In another case, a five year old boy has only had two one-to-one speech therapy sessions despite the fact this child could be helped greatly if he got this therapy in a timely way. We were put through the same perambulations once again, namely, representations to the HSE, representations to the Minister and it is then sent back to the HSE.

The single biggest reform any Government could bring in would be to get clarity and clear answers. I do not know who the geniuses are who script the responses. There seems to be a type of genius involved in trying not to give people clear answers. The Taoiseach famously said at one time that Paddy and Patricia need to know. Imagine the family who are beside themselves trying to get respite care and other care for a 42 year old adult or, on the other side of the scale, the parents of that five year old boy. That is the reality. It is not just an issue when I talk to the Taoiseach every so often. It is an issue in their lives every single day. Thus far, I have been unable to get answers for those two families to the very legitimate questions they are asking.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When we had the old health board system, while it had its faults and failings, at least we were able to get answers and Deputies could talk to whoever the official was, although they were not called directors of services then. Public representatives-----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Nonetheless, at board meetings the issues were always raised by public representatives and they would get a response. I do not understand why the parents of that person mentioned by Deputy Adams could not be given all of the facts and information on all of the opportunities to provide care for that person. There was a system whereby the HSE would come to the audiovisual room in Leinster House to answers queries from Deputies about issues like that. Some Deputies will table a parliamentary question to the Minister for Health and get an answer from the HSE, and the paper trail goes around, but the Deputy still does not have the answer he or she might get through a phone call or a direct discussion with whoever might be in charge. This applies not only in the case of health but in many other areas as well.

I suppose this is an example of the eternal balance between public representatives, who are elected by the people and entitled to ask questions in the House, and Ministers, who are responsible for the Vote in their Departments and, as such, should be able to provide transparency, accountability and responsibility in respect of all of these things. It is a case in point. If the Deputy speaks directly to the Minister for Health, he might deal with that one-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I do all that but the culture is against giving people information.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The system needs to be able to deal with many more cases because there are many more.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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To finish the last conversation, Deputy Adams is right. It is not a uniform culture. Health has always been a very difficult area to get accurate answers on. When Deputies put in a query, they get an acknowledgement from the HSE parliamentary affairs division that acknowledges it in a standard way, and the reply comes back on occasion to give the Deputy the very information he or she gave to the HSE in the question in the first place. We need a better system. Frankly, the Department of Social Protection is very good in this regard. If a Deputy contacts the Department of Social Protection, he or she will be telephoned by somebody to explain the answer to the query. It is a cultural thing that we need to do better.

With regard to the political reform question before us, while the Seanad has been mentioned, I want to mention local government. I will acknowledge it was a mistake that the Government of which the Taoiseach and I were members decided to abolish town councils. That is a view I hold very strongly now and I want to build a political consensus to restore them.

2 o’clock

I think Fianna Fáil is in the same space.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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They voted against it.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I think it is in favour of restoring them. That would be very good, but if we could have a political consensus it is something we should do in advance of the local elections. I ask the Taoiseach for his views regarding their restoration on a practical basis. Obviously, there was a lot wrong with some of them. Some of them did not have any powers.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There were some very small county councils to which 27 or 28 votes, in essence, one's extended family, would get one elected but in devolving local government I believe we should do better. Does the Taoiseach have any thoughts on that?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to give a guarantee here on a return for town councils but I have to say that some of them worked exceptionally well.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Many of them were completely ecumenical.

Darragh O'Brien (Dublin Fingal, Fianna Fail)
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Remember him?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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What he did to Kilkenny was-----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The benefit can be seen in some towns. In Westport, for example, one had different groupings on the town council but they always looked in the same direction for developments. Signs around the town-----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Others-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please allow the Taoiseach answer.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----as Deputy Martin well knows, became the Frank Hall story and could not get agreement on anything.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It was a mistake.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We need to look at the outcome of what has transpired since they were abolished in terms of representation of people. I know it took some time for people in towns to understand that they did not go to an office to deal with their town council business but rather had to deal with municipal authorities in terms of their functions. Deputy Howlin has raised the issue. There is nothing wrong with having a review or monitoring the current position. It was a big decision to make. It reduced the number of public representatives by 600 or 700. This was a big issue in------

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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With very little in terms of savings.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----populist Ireland at the time in terms of the scale and size of political bureaucracy, questions about what they were doing and so on. The Deputy has every right to say we should seriously examine this issue and build a consensus. We will get a paper first and see what is the general response.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I thank the Taoiseach. I appreciate that.