Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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On 19 October last, I raised the need to give access to the Orkambi drug to cystic fibrosis, CF, patients. I pointed out that we have the highest number of people per head of population with cystic fibrosis. We should be in the vanguard in terms of research and new drug technologies. Since I last raised this matter, I met Jillian McNulty who has CF and who has been on Orkambi for three years and three months. It is worthwhile to meet her and hear first hand of the dramatic and transformative impact Orkambi has had on her life. One can look at all the statistics and so forth, but one should also meet a person concerned. There is one stunning statistic. In the past two and a half years, Jillian has been in hospital for only ten weeks and that was due to the swine influenza. Before she went on Orkambi, she was in hospital for eight to nine months every year. That is her testimony to me. She has met one of the lead researchers in Washington. This drug has been 20 years in the pipeline and billions have been spent on bringing it to fruition.

There has been an attempt in recent times to talk down the effectiveness of the drug. That is wrong. The leak last week to The Sunday Business Posthas been described by Cystic Fibrosis Ireland as a heartless and disgraceful form of communication by the Health Service Executive, HSE, to people with CF. It was disgraceful and heartless but it is also part of an agenda that appears to be about talking down the effectiveness of the drug. If it was so ineffective, why would the HSE spend 25 to 26 weeks negotiating with the company? I do not deny that there are issues with the cost. However, let us accept that this drug has an impact and is effective in terms of lung function, weight gain, quality of life and independence. Jillian McNulty said that to me but there is no need to take my word or her word on the matter. Cystic Fibrosis Ireland, in its open letter to the Minister, makes that point and it is very disappointed by the degree to which the acknowledged international research is in many ways being dismissed by the HSE and others. It also references Professor Stuart Elborn of Royal Brompton Hospital, a leading facility for the treatment of CF, in this regard. The research to which I refer points to the extraordinary impact the drug is having and how exciting it is, not just in the short term but also for its long-term impact on the condition.

Will the Government intervene to ensure that this drug is made available? Will it also ensure that there will be no more talking down the effectiveness of the drug for people with CF?

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this question. It is an issue of considerable concern, particularly for sufferers. The Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, has made it clear that he wishes to make progress on this issue.

There is no attempt by the Government to talk down the benefits of this. Indeed, other Ministers have met families directly affected and are very aware of the concerns. However, approval of a drug of this nature has been taken out of the political process, as the Deputy knows. We have decided, as an Oireachtas, that this would be decided based on the medical evidence and we have appointed those to be expert on this. As the Deputy rightly said in his comments, both the effectiveness and the cost must be considered. The National Centre for Pharmoeconomics, NCPE, which has expertise in this area, has been clear that it views that this company is not approaching this in the proper way and is not showing sufficient concern for patients' needs in the approach it is taking to the pricing of this particular product. There have been intense discussions between the Health Service Executive and the company to seek to get agreement.

It is not without note that none of the other Governments that have sought to find agreement have been able to reach agreement. Canada, Australia and other countries have not been able to reach agreement with this company and the Minister for Health has taken the step of aligning himself with those other countries in order that we can form a group together to get a proper and decent outcome for patients suffering from this condition, some of whom can significantly benefit from this product, of that there is no doubt. The Minister, Deputy Harris, is acutely aware of the position and is not only continuing to press the work that is done here but is seeking to get co-operation from across other Governments and Ministers for health who are in a similar position seeking to get a good outcome for their patients. The product has to be brought within an affordable level. The NCPE has to be in a position to show that this treatment will be effective at the price at which the drug is being provided. That work is being pursued very intensively. The Minister has taken the unusual step of seeking to get a coalition of other Governments to approach this company in a concerted way in order that we can get assurance that this product, which has hugely beneficial effects for some sufferers of cystic fibrosis, can be made available. I assure the Deputy that everything will be done but it will be done within the legal provision that we have all agreed in this House.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not accept the Minister's response in its entirety. Up to very recently the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform demanded the right to sanction any new drugs and the Minister for Health had to go before the Cabinet. That was the position. I know that to be the case up to very recently, even up to the time the new cancer drug pembro came along. Professor Stuart Elborn has said:

Long-term follow-up data has indicated that this treatment can prevent disease progression.

Initially, we were able to show that you can make people a bit better. Now we're seeing exciting and reassuring long-term improvement.

We hope it will lead to a further rethink about the long-term benefits.

I am really excited ... [about] the therapy and also the pipeline of other powerful drugs that could get us closer to a cure.

We have the highest number of cystic fibrosis patients per capitain the world. We should be leading this in terms of new technologies and clinical trials and engaging with the industry, not in a reactive mode. Jillian McNulty has said to me that she is convinced that she would not be here without this drug. That is her assessment of the situation. I take that seriously. There is a lot of medical evidence that has not come to the fore and there has been an attempt to talk it down. I believe the context of the discussions would change if there was an acceptance that this drug was effective and was an impactful therapy for people with cystic fibrosis. I am glad the Minister has at least confirmed that much today.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time is up.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We should be under no illusion that the leak last Sunday was to send a message that this was not going to happen. That is what the leak to The Sunday Business Postwas about.

Finian McGrath (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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That is not true.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The decision was taken. That is why it was leaked. We need to reverse that and get to the front line-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and be in the vanguard of new technologies. I apologise, a Cheann Comhairle, and I thank you.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I can assure the Deputy that the Minister is absolutely at the front line-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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Yes.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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-----but the difficulty has been that the technology assessment has shown that at the price being demanded for the drug, it is not medically cost effective. That has been found to be the case not only in Ireland but in Australia, Canada, England and Scotland. All those countries are having difficulty with this company in getting a reasonable pricing of the product. That has been confirmed by the technical work done here.

The Minister is, therefore, taking the lead, as, quite rightly, the Deputy has asked him to do. He is seeking to build a coalition between those bodies in order that each country can work together to try to reach a sensible outcome. The countries in question have not been able to approve it under their reimbursement codes either in light of the high price being charged. They all recognise its benefits but they have not been able to approve it. That is what we need to get from this company.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yesterday evening, we received the long-awaited report of the commission on the future of water charges. I welcome aspects of the report, particularly the call for constitutional protection to keep our water services in public ownership. Sinn Féin has long argued for that. I also welcome the commission's recognition that the best way to pay for general domestic water usage is through general taxation. Sinn Féin has long argued that case also. The report rightly recommends fair treatment for those on group water schemes and those who paid the Government's water charge. In Sinn Féin's view, this means no domestic charges for those on such schemes or those with their own water sources and involves refunding those who paid the Government's water charges to date but - and this is a big "but" - we do not support the commission's proposal for a charge on so-called excessive use. This, in reality, is simply a rehash of the original Fianna Fáil-Green Party proposal devised in 2009 and it would inevitably lead to the introduction of across-the-board water charges in the future. A low charge now to soften the blow before hiking charges in the future is how the story goes and that is not acceptable. Given Fine Gael's and, indeed, Fianna Fáil's track record on water charges, how could anyone trust them not to increase water charges in the future? The Minister's colleague, the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government said as much this morning. He stated, "No water charges for the moment".

Having flip flopped from one position to another more times than I care to remember, we learned this morning that Fianna Fáil is proposing to introduce a super-tax of combined water charges and property tax. A super-tax from super-Fianna Fáil. Sinn Féin is committed to scrapping both. In any event, the report acknowledges that determining what is excessive water usage would be extremely difficult to calculate. It is also highly likely that the cost of administering and enforcing such a scheme would be greater than the revenue that might be realised. Let us be clear that citizens have demanded no water charges through the front door or through the back door.

In light of the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government's statement this morning, is it the Government's intention to pursue those who did not or who could not pay its water charges? If so, will this be done through the courts, the Revenue or deductions from social welfare payments? Will the Government act to enshrine water services in public ownership? Will the Minister commit today to a referendum being held in respect of this matter in the future?

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank all those who have been involved in drawing up this report. It is a useful piece of work done under the chairmanship of Mr. Kevin Duffy and it shows that a great deal of expertise was brought to bear on the issue. The report allows us to have a genuine conversation about the future of water. The Deputy has selectively picked parts that she likes and chosen to ignore others. What we now have to do in the political environment that exists is use the committee that has been established, and on which Sinn Féin is represented, to tease out the issues that have been highlighted. How do we ensure that genuine people who did their civic duty are treated equally and not put at a disadvantage in respect of this matter? We equally must examine how we might deal with the fact that there is in the legislation an absolute assurance that no change in ownership can occur without a plebiscite. We have to decide whether we need to go further than that. The Deputy has expressed her view, but I am certainly content to wait for the committee to tease out this matter. The commission has also made it clear that it believes the polluter pays principle, which is at the heart of a great deal of thinking about the use of water, would be met by making normal usage free. That would be decided by an independent regulator, not the Government.

Where people are using manifestly excessive amounts of water, that would be paid for. There is a large element of fairness in that.

Much of the discussion during the general election campaign focused on the need to bring about greater fairness and to ensure that our economic success would be used in a fairer way. Making sure that we use resources in a fair way has been at the heart of the thinking of the new Government. The commission has pointed the way to some elements of how water should be dealt with in a fair way. These elements include the principle of the polluter pays. They also include ensuring that no person who did his or her civic duty and paid up will be left at a disadvantage. They further include, as the Deputy rightly says, that those who are involved in group schemes and other schemes will not be placed at a disadvantage. That is very valuable food for thought.

I am content to work within the committee. Fine Gael members will work with others on the committee to find a sensible route forward for a resource that is immensely important to our social and economic progress and which needs an investment in the near term of €5.5 billion and in the longer term, according to Irish Water, one of €13 billion. We need to have a sustainable approach. It will not be achieved by individual parties grandstanding and saying they are going to stand on this ground and not consider any other opportunities or options. We have to behave in accordance with the way we were elected. We are legislators. We have to deliberate on what has been provided to us as expert opinion and draw conclusions collectively. That is what I look forward to doing.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We can agree on the point that we should behave in accordance with how we were elected. The majority of Deputies in this Dáil were elected on the basis of the abolition of water charges. That is a statement of fact. The Government does not need a commission, a committee or a long, elaborate process of reflection to understand that reality. That is what the majority of Deputies, including this crowd here in Fianna Fáil, were elected to do. Committee or no committee, the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government, Deputy Coveney, was quite clear in saying that those who have not paid will be pursued. I want to know what that means. Does that mean that this matter will go through the courts? Will the Government use the Revenue Commissioners? Will it deduct money from people's social welfare payments? I will enlighten colleagues that this is not a matter which those affected will be happy to leave in abeyance or about which they will just wait and see. Lots of people paid this charge because the Government browbeat and bullied them into it. Many did not pay because they simply will not pay as a matter of principle. Lots more did not pay because they could not pay. Those people need to know today whether it is the intention of the Government, as enunciated by the Minister, Deputy Coveney, to pursue them through the courts, by means of the efforts of the Revenue Commissioners or via their welfare payments. Will the Minister, Deputy Bruton, please make a clear statement on the matter?

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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It is nonsense to suggest that people were elected on any one issue. People were elected because of concerns across a range of issues. They wanted to see people getting back to work. They wanted those on welfare who had not received increases for eight years to receive such increases. This Government is providing a response in respect of many of the issues that were raised during the election campaign. We all recognise that we did not get a majority. No one got a majority and we have to work together to develop fair solutions. This Government is delivering fair solutions for welfare recipients who had not received an increase for eight years, for people who are getting back to work and for investment in education, particularly in the context of disadvantage and in the area of special education. We are providing solutions.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How is the Government pursuing water charges?

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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We have to sit down-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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How is the Government pursuing water charges?

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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As Deputies elected to this House, we have to deliberate on this decision. We have to reach our own decisions. We are not pre-empting that. We all have our views.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government, Deputy Coveney, just said-----

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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We all have our views. Sinn Féin set out its red-line issues. We need to sit down at the committee that has been appointed for the purpose of-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister is not answering the question.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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The committee will be well chaired and we will reach a conclusion.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Minister. Deputy Brendan Howlin, please.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy fails to understand the process.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I understand the process perfectly.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can we have silence please? Deputy Howlin.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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As Deputy McDonald has indicated, Members received the report of the commission on water last evening. The very first recommendation of the expert commission concerns the public ownership of the water infrastructure.

It states that as part of the overall approach to settling the issue addressed in the report, the expert commission recommends that the adoption of a suitable constitutional provision on public ownership of water services be more fully addressed by the Oireachtas committee as part of its deliberations. The Dáil has already passed a Bill on Second Stage to achieve this objective. We are told that the Government was briefed this week on the complexities that would arise if water was the only utility network given constitutional protection. The Labour Party has published a referendum Bill that protects all our networks, including gas and electricity. It avoids a repetition of the disaster of the sale of the telecommunications network some years ago.

Whether those of us in the House like it, there is a real distrust of politicians on this issue. There is a real fear that whatever laws we pass – the Minister has indicated that we have already enacted laws to protect it as a public utility – we need to go beyond that now to reassure people and to assuage real fears. While the detail will be addressed more fully by the committee, as the Minister has said, the report makes clear that the principle of public ownership must be enshrined in the Constitution. Yesterday, before the report was even published, we saw reports of Cabinet briefings against a referendum.

Will the Government support the idea of a referendum to keep our water infrastructure in public ownership? A Bill has already passed the House to that effect. If so, will the Government give a guarantee to the House that the resulting referendum will take place during 2017? Will the Government publish and provide to the committee now established the briefings and advices given to it in respect of such a referendum in order that the committee can carry out its work properly informed?

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Howlin for raising this matter. It is worth restating one point. While I fully acknowledge the public disquiet, section 2(1) of the Water Services Act 2014 provides that there will be no change in the status of Irish Water without a majority of votes cast in a plebiscite in favour of the proposal. We already have legal provision in place, as Deputy Howlin knows.

The Deputy's party has brought forward Private Members' legislation. As he is aware, we have not opposed it and we are open to discuss it. However, this has to be done in the usual way, whereby we evaluate the potential impact of any such legislation and ensure that the decisions we take are robust for the future. Certainly, I am of the view that, as a State, we need to protect our core networks and ensure they are available and managed in the interest of the State. We have seen the mistakes made in other jurisdictions, as well as our own, whereby such decisions were not taken with due caution. A Bill put forward in this area on the back of the recommendations will have to be seriously considered by the committee in the first instance. Then, on foot of the committee report, which, I understand, will come within three months, we will be able to make decisions about where we go from there in terms of a potential referendum.

We ought not to seek to pre-empt the work of the committee that we have appointed. It has valuable work to do. We must acknowledge that those responsible have found the legislative assurance we provided to be insufficient. That is what they found in public opinion and the Oireachtas has to take account of that. I am sure it will do so in the committee.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I welcome this acknowledgement. The Labour Party supported the Water Services Act that gave the plebiscite guarantee, but, to be blunt, it is not good enough. People want further assurance and want to hold it in their own hands. That is why we need a constitutional referendum. I welcome the views of the Minister in this regard. Let us agree across the House that we will do that. That would be one thing off the agenda.

A second issue arises in respect of those law-abiding citizens who have paid the charges. The matter was pursued by Deputy McDonald, but to no clear view. Anyone who believes that people are going to be pursued and that Irish Water is going to get that money now is being fanciful.

It is absolutely a requirement, if charges are not to be imposed, that they are not imposed on anybody. I, therefore, want an assurance from the Minister that the Government will ensure that those law-abiding taxpayers who, for whatever reason, paid their water charges in good faith will have all the moneys they paid fully reimbursed in order to achieve what the commission has recommended, that is, that citizens who paid should not be treated less favourably than those who did not.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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We must consider in the committee how the issue of fairness for those who have respected their civic duty and paid a tax that was duly charged and duly underpinned by law is to be dealt with. However, I will not make a decision to commit money today to the repayment of charges. As a former Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, the Deputy would be the first to criticise me if I were to rise as a Minister to make commitments of payment to the Opposition without first giving the Dáil-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is a matter of equity.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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-----an opportunity to deliberate on this and arrive at the consensus approach. The commission has done very valuable work in showing elements of fairness that must be respected: the fair treatment of those who paid their water charges, the fair treatment of those who have paid for water for years through water schemes, group schemes and so on, and fairness in the sense that if some people use water excessively and plainly waste a resource that is very costly to produce, the general taxpayer should not have to carry the cost of that behaviour. Important issues of fairness must, therefore, be teased out by the committee, and we look forward to that.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I would like briefly to welcome the political students of Sallynoggin College of Further Education who have come to the Dáil today.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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All politics is local.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I suspect young people interested in politics hope to get from political representatives clarity and clear principles on important issues. I suggest to the Minister that when it comes to this so-called expert commission on water, what we are getting from this Government and Fianna Fáil is a monumental political fudge designed to save the blushes of Fine Gael and most particularly Fianna Fáil and leave the door open for the future reintroduction of water charges on the basis of this so-called excessive water charge. For the past two years, in unprecedented numbers, the people of this country, who have been assaulted with austerity and injustice, have taken to the streets and said they do not want household water charges - full stop. The one useful aspect of the commission's report is the confirmation of something we and the people on the streets have been saying, that Ireland does not have a problem of excessive household usage. In fact, we use 20% less water per household than Britain does, which has had charges and meters for many years. There is, therefore, no excuse or justification on the basis of water conservation for water charges. Irish people are conscientious in their use of household water. It is agriculture and industry that use the vast bulk of water, not households.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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They pay for it too.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Order.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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They already pay.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Order for Deputy Boyd Barrett.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Does this Government understand a simple thing called democracy and the will of the people, who have said they do not want domestic water charges? Does it understand that there is now no justification for domestic water charges? Does Fianna Fáil understand that people do not want water charges rolled up into another regressive tax by linking them with property tax? I do not know if Bertie Ahern suggested that idea to Fianna Fáil, but if he did, Fianna Fáil would want to think very seriously about rehabilitating him.

Finian McGrath (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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Bertie is back.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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There is a clear mandate for this Dáil.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Back again.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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When will the Government stop the delay and obfuscation and simply accept the democratic will and mandate of the people to get rid of household water charges, establish the right to water as a human right and pay for the urgently needed investment in our water infrastructure and conservation through progressive taxation?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It should make companies like Cerberus, the property vultures and other corporate vultures pay their taxes instead of consistently screwing ordinary householders.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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First, I welcome the students from Sallynoggin.

Finian McGrath (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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This is the assembly where people deliberate, sift the evidence and draw conclusions after careful consideration. Unfortunately, Deputy Boyd Barrett tends to reach his conclusions without looking at any of the evidence.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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One must be careful with the evidence.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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This is a very valuable document providing evidence for us. It deals with issues raised, such as the nature of the right that might be there for water and the best system for charging. Interestingly, it is recognised that the best system for managing the issue would be volumetric metering, although it is recognised that the political realities are such that we must have acceptance for whatever form of charging is introduced. The report points out the road on which acceptance would be built. It would be built on principles of fairness, one of which is that people who use water excessively could not expect the general taxpayer to pay for that behaviour. Equally, it is indicated that people with group and other schemes should be treated equally.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Private wells.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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It is indicated that people paid in good faith, with more than 60% of people doing so, recognising their civic duty. Not everybody decided they would not pay a legally established charge. The report indicates those people should be treated equally and fairly.

There is much food for discussion and as we evolve a system that will deal with a water network that needs €5.5 billion and which is immensely important to our ambition to attract new employment and provide a social underpinning to our growing communities and new areas, we must recognise it is an important asset. We must deliberate on the expert input that has been provided. The Deputy tends to draw his conclusions by looking into his own heart and deciding what is best.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Does he have a heart?

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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We must deliberate over the evidence in a mature way. That is what I look forward to doing.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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That is the nature of democracy. It is not just those who shout loudest or protest who make determinations. It is the elected people, on a balanced basis, sifting the evidence and making decisions for our community in the best long-term interest of the country.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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For many Deputies, it is why they were elected.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Please do not insult the intelligence of the people who took to the streets over the past two years.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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What about those who did not take to the streets?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The difference is they did their research a long time ago.

Simon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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Did they?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Government never produced any research to back up false claims that these charges would somehow reduce household water usage and they were necessary to do so. I just quoted real research, facts and comparisons that have been confirmed by the water commission. We relayed them to the Government two years ago. We use 20% less water per household than Britain, which has water charges. Therefore, such charges do not reduce water usage. It is a simple fact arising from comparison. I suggest the Minister does his research.

Will the Government now accept the will and intelligence of the people who have taken to the streets? They want conservation as much as the Minister.

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That is a hell of a-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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If the Government wants an incentive for further conservation, why does it not introduce an actual conservation grant?

John Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That is some future. If that is the premise there will be some future.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Deasy, please.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That grant should encourage people to put in water-saving devices. It has never done that. The Government is spoofing when it argues that it wants water conservation. It actually wants to impose a regressive and unfair tax on householders and the people will not be conned.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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If the Minister does not know, the people will be on the streets in February again if the Government does not accept their will and intelligence in this matter.

Michael Creed (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will not accept anything.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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This is a valuable report. We are setting up a committee. The Deputy is involved in the committee, so he will have ample opportunity to air his views.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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He is open-minded.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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The report shows that metering has reduced leakage. It shows that it has worked. The report endorses the idea of setting up a national utility and removing the responsibility from the local authorities. It endorses the value of moving away from the old approach. It supports the polluter pays principle, which provides that people who use water excessively should pay for such usage and that the general taxpayer who pays for most of the normal usage should not pay for excessive usage.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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There is no excessive usage.

Richard Bruton (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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The report endorses many valuable principles. Like every other Deputy who is a member of the committee, Deputy Boyd Barrett will be able to tease this out and come back to the Oireachtas so that we can make final decisions. That is the way the people of Sallynoggin would expect us to behave as elected representatives who have a duty to make decisions that are based on the long-term ability of this country to fund a water system that meets the needs of our citizens. We hope that will happen through this process.