Dáil debates

Tuesday, 29 September 2015

Ceisteanna - Questions (Resumed)

UK Referendum on EU Membership

4:45 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach if his Department is assessing the impact of an exit by the United Kingdom from the European Union following a referendum being held; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11634/15]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if he discussed with the British Prime Minister, Mr David Cameron, in any of his recent conversations, the issue of a referendum in Britain seeking British withdrawal from the European Union. [15227/15]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach if his departmental officials have prepared a report on the likely impact to this State of a British withdrawal from the European Union. [15228/15]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach if he has discussed with other European Union leaders at recent European Union Council meetings, or in bilateral meetings, plans for a referendum in Britain on an exit from the European Union; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15229/15]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach the actions he and his Department are taking to protect the business and trading relationship between Ireland and the United Kingdom, which now amounts to over €1 billion per week, in the event of the United Kingdom voting to leave the European Union; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16206/15]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach if he is setting up a special working group that includes business representatives, to prepare for the possibility of the United Kingdom leaving the European Union; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16207/15]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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7. To ask the Taoiseach his plans to speak at the next European Union Council meeting regarding the possible exit of the United Kingdom from the European Union; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19226/15]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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8. To ask the Taoiseach if he and his Department have considered or deliberated on whether Ireland will agree to changes to the European Union treaty, when it is discussed at European Union Council level, to allow the United Kingdom to remain within the European Union; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [20237/15]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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9. To ask the Taoiseach the preparatory steps he has taken, or is planning to take, in the event that the British Government’s proposed in-out referendum goes ahead; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22950/15]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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10. To ask the Taoiseach his plans to raise the British Government’s in-out European Union referendum at the next meeting of European Union leaders; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22951/15]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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11. To ask the Taoiseach if he has commissioned a report and-or analysis into the British Government's demands for changes to the treaty of the European Union as part of its negotiations in advance of its planned European Union in-out referendum; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22952/15]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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12. To ask the Taoiseach if the Government is prepared to countenance changes to the treaty of the European Union in any negotiations with the British Government on its planned in-out European Union referendum; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22953/15]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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13. To ask the Taoiseach the specific concerns for Ireland he discussed with the British Prime Minister, Mr David Cameron, in the event of the planned referendum on the United Kingdom's future membership of the European Union being passed; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25705/15]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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14. To ask the Taoiseach if he was requested by the British Prime Minister, Mr David Cameron, to support certain reforms in the European Union, to allow a compromise to be negotiated in relation to the 2017 referendum in Britain; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25712/15]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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15. To ask the Taoiseach if he or his Department officials are exploring the options of a referendum being held here in the event of changes being made to European Union treaties prior to the referendum taking place in Britain; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [25713/15]

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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16. To ask the Taoiseach if he has discussed with the British Prime Minister, Mr David Cameron, the proposed referendum on British membership of the European Union. [32852/15]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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17. To ask the Taoiseach if he has discussed the issue of a referendum and the possible withdrawal of Britain from the European Union in his recent discussions with the British Prime Minister, Mr David Cameron; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32854/15]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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18. To ask the Taoiseach the Government's position on British demands for changes to the treaty of the European Union; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [32855/15]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. I to 18, inclusive, together.

The place of the UK in the European Union is of real national importance for Ireland and is a strategic priority for the Government. We are, therefore, watching developments very closely, engaging with our counterparts and doing all we can to help to keep the United Kingdom in the European Union. When I met with Prime Minister Cameron in London on 18 June, we discussed his pledge to hold an in-out referendum on EU membership before the end of 2017, the general outline of his proposals for EU reform, the thinking around treaty change and other issues relating to the EU-UK relationship. We also discussed our specific concerns about the impact a change in the nature of the EU-UK relationship could have on economic and trade links between our two countries and on stability in Northern Ireland. As I described previously in the House, on 23 June, that meeting was both positive and constructive. The Prime Minister did not ask for any particular support in respect of any proposal. However, I made it clear to him how much value we attach to the fact that both our countries are members of the European Union. I said that, without necessarily agreeing on all points, Ireland will be as helpful as it can be in the negotiations.

The issue is obviously of great importance to the European Union as a whole and it arises frequently in discussions with my EU counterparts, as it did last weekend. At the European Council on 25 and 26 June, Prime Minister Cameron presented a brief outline of his thinking, following meetings with most of the leaders of the European Union. A lengthy debate did not take place at that meeting, but it was agreed that consultations would be undertaken to see how the issues might be progressed. At the October European Council meeting, which will be held on 15 and 16 October, President Tusk intends updating Heads of State and Government on the state of play of the technical work that has been under way in Brussels since the June discussion.

Prime Minister Cameron has informed his colleagues and partners of his intention to present his proposals after the European Council meeting in October. The arrangements for detailed discussions on these proposals have yet to he agreed, but it is expected that there will be further consideration by Heads of State or Government at the European Council meeting to be held in December. It is not clear at this stage whether the British reform proposals will require treaty change. We would in general have serious reservations about opening up the European Union treaties. However, the substance and scope of the proposals and what is eventually acceptable to all EU partners will need to be examined before the possible need for treaty change and the form of such change can be assessed.

I welcome the publication in June by the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs on the EU-UK relationship. It acknowledges that British membership is important not just for Ireland, but for the European Union as a whole. The report makes a valuable contribution to our understanding of the issues at stake and is a powerful symbol of the cross-party consensus that Ireland is best served by our closest neighbour and good friend remaining in the Union.

Departments, led by my the Department, are also very much engaged on the matter and have been for some time. In May, a new division was established in my Department to focus specifically on relations between Ireland and Britain, including bilateral issues that arise in the context of the EU-UK debate. That division also has responsibility for Northern Ireland where, of course, the impact of a British exit would be most severely and acutely felt. Preparatory work has already been undertaken on questions that might arise for Ireland in the event of a possible British exit from the Union. Of course, in that hypothetical situation much would depend on future EU-UK arrangements.

I wish to emphasise that the main aspect of our work has been on examining how to support UK membership of the Union rather than on planning for its withdrawal. The Government fully recognises that the economic dimension is significant. We are in regular contact with business groups and other civil society organisations which appreciate directly how crucial common EU membership is for the Irish-British bilateral economic relationship. Further work is being undertaken to enhance that understanding, including research that the Department of Finance has commissioned from the Economic and Social Research Institute on macro economic links between the United Kingdom and Ireland in the context of our joint membership of the European Union.

I would add that the Government will continue to seek to ensure that Irish perspectives and concerns are understood in the United Kingdom. Our position was set out once again in recent speeches in Britain by myself and by the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. In my contribution to the British Irish Association in Cambridge earlier this month, I emphasised the importance of Britain's continuing membership of the European Union, including in the context of stability and prosperity on the island of Ireland. Our embassy in London is also very much engaged in public diplomacy on the issue. However, we are very clear that the final question will be exclusively for the electorate in the United Kingdom to decide.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. I am sure many postgraduate students in foreign relations and diplomacy would like to get their teeth into such a reply, because it is a lengthy masterpiece that says nothing of substance. It is full of banal generalities, which is what we have been getting on this issue for the past year and a half since Prime Minister Cameron said what he said. I am very unclear as to what the Irish position is and do not know where we stand on any of the issues that have been raised by the British Government in regard to its membership of and participation in the European Union. Unfortunately, the House has not had the opportunity to debate issues discussed prior to or after the past three EU Council meetings. This is unfortunate and unacceptable. The Government cannot be complacent about people's attitude to the European Union and cutting debate does not help. Will the Taoiseach confirm that statements will be scheduled before and after EU Council meetings from now on?

I am unclear, and the Taoiseach said nothing in his reply today, of Ireland's position on any of Britain's demands. We need to be careful. The Taoiseach is using language saying "we will be supportive" and "we will be helpful". Has this country anything to bring to the debate? Of course we support fair trade, free trade, competitiveness and all of that, but Britain's own review of the balance of competencies within the Union showed that the bulk of European powers help individual states to compete on a level playing field and give them fair access to trade. Britain's and the British Government's own analysis had little to show at the end in terms of meeting the views of eurosceptics, who tend to be sceptical of and against the European Union on emotional grounds as opposed to factual and substantive grounds.

It is important the guarantees that exist within the European Union which allow for basic working conditions and social supports are maintained. One of the bigger issues emerging in our two-tiered recovery is the high number of people on low incomes and wages within our economy. This is a trend across Europe and we need a proper debate in Europe on the issue. In our never-ending move towards what is labelled as competitiveness, we are shoe-horning a significant cohort of the population into permanent, low wage jobs with exploitative, zero hour and low hour contracts and so on.

These things have taken from many families and young people any certainty about security of tenure in housing, mortgages, buying a car, and so on. At European level and at the level of leaders all of this terminology gets thrown around. Of course we must be more competitive, but there are different ways of doing so. Competitiveness cannot mean reducing the means of middle and lower income groups on a continual basis while wealth in the stratosphere of the corporates or whoever goes to a higher level. This needs to be critically examined within the European Union and is part of the British debate. Ireland should be saying to Britain that it does not agree with it on that front. We are not going to undermine social supports or protections for workers.

There has been no public debate initiated by the Government on this issue. Our party held a significant meeting in Cavan with a number of academics presenting. The agricultural economist with the Irish Farmers Association was very informative and enlightening on the devastating potential impact of a British exit on agriculture and food here and in Northern Ireland. It was the first time I had heard an articulation of concrete impacts, which I have never heard from the Government or from any Minister. There is a complete absence of substantive debate and information on the issue.

Can the Taoiseach tell me what specific changes the British Government is looking for? Has it made a formal statement to him in that regard? Everyone is now saying that it will not be treaty change, as the capacity of Europe to facilitate that is not there. Now we are looking at something short of treaty change. What is it? In what specific areas is the British Government seeking change? What is our position? I get a sense that the Prime Minister, Mr. Cameron, has landed himself in it. To appease the sceptics within his own party, he announced the "in or out" referendum without a clear agenda or pathway as to how it would work out. He will now want other EU countries to help him and to facilitate Britain in getting a "Yes" vote in the referendum when it transpires.

What plans are in place to protect Irish business and enterprise in this context? Does the Taoiseach accept the ESRI estimate that a British exit from the European Union could wipe about €4 billion off the value of Irish exports? We know the European Union has played a very significant role in assisting Northern Ireland's recovery. EU funds totalling about €500 million have been invested in Northern Ireland through the peace initiative and other initiatives. Brexit would have a very significant impact on Northern Ireland and on the entire island. Would, for example, controls be reintroduced at the Border? Has the Taoiseach a position paper on this? Could he publish the position papers which must have been drawn up by his Department and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade?

There was a decision in May of this year, only a month or two ago, to set up a new division within the Department of the Taoiseach to cover the relationship between Britain, Ireland and Northern Ireland. That suggests an acknowledgement of what we have been saying for years about the detachment of the Government from issues pertaining to Northern Ireland, North-South relationships and the Good Friday Agreement. There has been an increase in the Civil Service capacity within the Department of an Taoiseach to deal with these issues.

4:55 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy started by saying that my response was full of banal generalities and that it was unclear what the Irish position is. Let me deal with that. I do not think it is a banal generality to say that the place of the UK in the European Union is of real national importance for Ireland, and is a strategic priority for the Government.

I said to the Deputy that we also discussed our specific concerns about the impact of a change in the nature of the EU-UK relationship on economic and trade links between Ireland and Britain, and on stability in Northern Ireland. I do not regard that as a banal generality. I said to him that without necessarily agreeing on all points, Ireland will be as helpful in the negotiations as we can be. That is not a banal generality.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What are those points?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I said to the Deputy that the President of the European Council, Mr. Tusk, intends to inform the leaders of the Council on 15 and 16 October of the state of play in regard to the technical work arising from the visits of the Prime Minister, Mr. Cameron, since the June discussion. That is not a banal generality. Deputy Martin asked what Mr. Cameron wants and what the British Government is looking for. The British Prime Minister has informed his EU partners of his intention to present his proposals after the October European Council. That is not a banal generality.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is a statement of fact that the British Prime Minister has said he intends to present his proposals after the October European Council.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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On what?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy, please.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On the four points he has started out. These are first, measures to make the European Union more competitive, which are likely to include completion of the Single Market, better regulation and expediting international trade agreements. Does Ireland support those measures? It does.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is nothing new in that.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Second, steps to enhance national sovereignty. This relates to the role of national parliaments as well as the concept of ever-closer union. That needs careful analysis and scrutiny.

Third, making the European Union more fair, preventing non-eurozone countries from being disadvantaged by decisions taken solely by the eurozone. The Prime Minister, Mr. Cameron has said repeatedly that he sits at the European Council and that as he is not a member of the eurozone, he would not like to think that decisions made within that zone will impact adversely on countries which are outside it but which are within the European Union.

Fourth, addressing migration and welfare. They are the four main points Mr. Cameron set out in terms of wanting change. The Prime Minister presented those general principles and they are doing technical work on what that actually means. The Prime Minister has visited quite a number of the leaders and intends to present his proposals in detail after the October meeting. As I stand here talking to the Deputy, we still only have that broad sense of the issues that are of concern to the British Government. We do not have the detail. It is important to see what exactly is put on the table.

As I indicated to the Prime Minister, given that there is a large Irish contingent living in England - 70,000 on the boards of British companies - we appreciate how important it would be that the British electorate - it is its business - would eventually decide on the nature of the question it is being asked and that it would respond by saying it wants Britain to continue to be a forthright and strong member of the European Union. Within that, there are aspects to which we can point from our own experience in dealing with the fiscal stability treaty in the middle of the greatest recession of 60 years.

I signed a letter some years ago with the Prime Minister, Mr. Cameron, about improving the way in which the efficiency of the Union operates, including such issues as red tape and administration. Everybody supports these and they are part of what he is concerned with. With regard to any changes that the British might require either for EU legislation or for policy, where they are reasonable and achievable, I do not see why we cannot be supportive of them. I made it clear to him that there will more than likely be issues on which we cannot be supportive and he understands that. If a UK proposal would be unrealistic or damaging to this country's interests, we will say so and be very forthright about it.

I believe the Deputy did the right thing in having a debate on it. I would not like to believe, however, that we would set out all the implications for us here because what the British people actually do is not within our control. However, the additional personnel in the section of the Department of the Taoiseach dealing with Northern Ireland and watching these issues as they unfold do not in themselves comprise a new, additional resource. There is a lot of work going on within the Departments to allow us to best understand what actually is meant here. I include the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and the Department of Finance. The latter has commissioned the ESRI to do work on the macro-economic links between Ireland and Britain. The focus of that is such that we should be able to promote the reasons Britain should stay in the Union. We will study carefully the indications coming from the British side before the Prime Minister presents his detailed proposals after the October meeting.

5:05 pm

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Mary Lou McDonald, who is representing Deputy Gerry Adams.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach moved from bland generalisations to worrying, bland generalisations.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Accurate and factual.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Let me just probe this a little bit further with the Taoiseach. He referred to circumstances in which we can be helpful. He said we will try to be helpful. I find that a little worrying. Let me tell the Taoiseach why. The tenor and nature of the reservations of British Tories, UKIP and a variety of other political forces about the European Union have been very obvious for a long time, particularly in recent times. I say this as a person who herself believes the European project is on the wrong track and that the European Union is long overdue a radical reassessment and a radical overhaul. That is my position and that of Sinn Féin on these matters. Is the corollary of prioritising more competition not the downgrading of "social Europe" yet again?

With regard to the issue raised concerning migration and welfare, it is scarcely surprising to say it is code for a sort of little-England, small-minded, in extremisand xenophobic view of migrants who come to Britain or any other part of the Union. This has been made all the more acute by the trauma in Syria and elsewhere and the resulting refugee crisis. I would be very worried if the Taoiseach were considering even for a second being helpful to a British Tory Government set on dismantling social protections, such as they are within the European Union, and placing even greater emphasis on and according greater supremacy to competition, competition law and the forces of the market or, in many cases, the forces of the jungle. I would be very worried if he were in any way proposing to give succour to a British Tory Government that wished to roll back the tide. What was the term that Mr. Cameron used? Was it "an influx of persons seeking to get into Britain"? His rhetoric was ugly on the issue of migration only very recently.

Deputy Kenny is, of course, Taoiseach but he is also the leader of Fine Gael. He has a particular worldview and much of his outlook is shared with the British Tories. The Tories, however, are not elected in any part of Ireland, as the Taoiseach is well aware. Certainly, this jurisdiction and its Taoiseach should not be party to any rowing back of social protection or social provision, much less playing into the hands of a xenophobic outlook in respect of migration.

Rather than having a generalised, bland or abstract perspective on what the British may or may not be looking for, we and the Government should have a very strong view on what we believe should be prioritised by way of reform at EU level. More to the point, the Taoiseach should know and be prepared to state very publicly on the floor of the Dáil those places to which he will not go to mollify or curry favour with Mr. David Cameron and his Tory colleagues.

The Taoiseach refers to the North almost as an afterthought in this debate. He says he is worried about the stability of the North. That is fair enough but the truth is that, in terms of our national interest and the interest of Ireland, the biggest dilemma and biggest potential problem for us consequent to any Brexit is the North. That is not a minor detail. In my view, it ought to be the centrepiece of the Taoiseach's and our concerns for any British exit strategy. In the Taoiseach's conversations with Mr. Cameron, has he asked him about this referendum and the North? Has he put it to Mr. Cameron that the people of the North and the others who live on the island of Ireland need to determine for themselves whether the North stays or goes in terms of EU membership? The Taoiseach will know that, in Scotland, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has made clear that the Scottish would regard it as their right to have Scotland decide on its membership, or otherwise, of the European Union. Equally — I am sure the Taoiseach shares this view — it is a matter for the people in the North of Ireland to make that call. While that call is so significant in terms of trade, agriculture, PEACE funding and supports, as referred to, it represents, in a much more fundamental way, big stuff for Ireland because its economy, in the medium and longer terms, will grow and develop at its optimum rate and in the best way on an all-island basis.

In responding to this matter so far, the Taoiseach has expressed concerns for Ireland, by which I presume he means this jurisdiction. By saying "our relationship with Britain ", I presume he is referring to this jurisdiction again. The North is almost a separate consideration. That is the wrong way to go about this. The Taoiseach says that Mr. Cameron has spoken to some leaders about his proposals. I doubt that Mr. Cameron has been as coy with the Taoiseach as the Taoiseach is being with us in terms of setting out precisely what he has in mind. Can the Taoiseach reassure us that he is not being quite so coy in return and that he will defend the national interest, prioritise the issue of the North and the right of its people to set its course and decide in their own right on whether it should be in the Union, and not allow a decision by England, led by Tories or anybody else, to be imposed on them, or us, as an island people?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am interested in the Deputy's range of views. She talked about being bland and general. Deputy Martin talked about being banal and general. I have listed six or eight specific issues in the reply I gave to both Deputies. They are not generalities; they are quite specific about where we stand and where we want to be. Deputy Mary Lou MacDonald finds it worrying that we should be helpful in respect of Britain's position.

I pointed out to Deputy Martin that we do not have the details, other than generalities and general principles, of what the Prime Minister has set out. However, the Deputy will be aware of the extent of trade across the Irish Sea every day and the extent to which jobs in this country are dependent upon British trade and on exports from Ireland to Britain. It is beyond simplistic to assume that it is not evident to everybody that being a member of a market with a population of 500 million has enormous implications and potential for Ireland. Britain is our closest neighbour and our greatest trading partner, and that also has serious implications for us. It is, therefore, in our interest - and as all other countries have said - that the European Union would continue to be stronger with Britain as a central member.

In fairness to Prime Minister Cameron, he has been very strong about the completion of the Single Market and the digital market. He has also been very strong on getting rid of useless red tape and strangulation by administration. Everyone supports these-----

5:15 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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And the working time directive.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and having them implemented. The Deputy says that the European Union is on the wrong track. That is nothing new from Sinn Féin. She has never believed in the European Union and has voted against it on every occasion during the past 30 years.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I did not have a vote then.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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She is completely hypocritical about it in that her party's MEPs will come home and say "We can't have this. We can't make contributions for that service but we'll write documents in Europe and vote for them and say 'We should make contributions for some of the services that we have'." Of course, the general population here might not be aware of that. As the deputy leader of her party, therefore, she is opposed to Europe. She does not want anything to do with Europe. She is quite happy to see European involvement here and European contributions for the benefit of Ireland. She sends out her MEPs and they still oppose everything except contributions for services.

Deputy McDonald mentioned social protection and social services and, of course, we will defend our national interests. We will defend and hopefully promote the way we have evolved social services here and the way we have maintained the extent of contributions through social services despite the economic recession of recent years. However, I would say this to Deputy McDonald. She comes in here with all this pious goodness.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I was elected to serve in the House, Taoiseach.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Rightly so, and you are fully entitled to be here.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Could the Taoiseach define "pious goodness".

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will because-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sure there are Deputies waiting to put their questions.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----suddenly the Deputy's aspirations regarding Northern Ireland and her contributions about it leave a lot to be desired. I will say why. She mentioned that the people in the North are entitled to their vote and to make their decisions. The people, North and South, made a decision in respect of the Good Friday Agreement. I would say that from her party's perspective she has lost interest in Northern Ireland being a priority and her focus down here is on the people seated to her left and all the rest of it because she is looking to a different time. However, I warn Deputy McDonald - at her peril - that her party should not lose sight of what the people, North and South, did in voting in favour of the Good Friday Agreement. As she is well aware-----

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is this a commentary?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----if the institutions in Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement were to fail or fall because of her party's reluctance to accept responsibility regarding financial matters and reform, then upon their heads would that be. The Deputy cannot have it both ways all the time. She doesn't want contributions for services down here, yet she makes them in Northern Ireland. Her party caps property tax at £400,000 so the person living in a £2 million mansion up there will pay the same as somebody in a suburban semi-detached in the more affluent areas of some towns. Yet she comes down here and screams about wealth tax and all the rest of it.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am actually from this city.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Of course you do. She asks what the British are looking for and I have outlined that in some detail to Deputy Martin. I have pointed out to him, not as a bland generality, that I do not know the detail of what the British Prime Minister is going to present to the leaders of the European Council after the October meeting.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is what frightens me. It worries me.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is what he intends to do, however, so we will know at that stage. For us, Northern Ireland is not an afterthought and far be it from Deputy McDonald to assume that. When Ireland held the EU Presidency at the start of 2013, we had personnel from Northern Ireland based in Brussels so that they were fully acquainted with what was happening. The issues were being discussed on the basis of an all-island economy.

We are very supportive of the British Government's move to give authority to the Northern Ireland Assembly to reduce corporation tax and make us more compatible as an island entity. We have been clear about that.

I have spoken to Prime Minister Cameron about the referendum but I do not know the question he is going to ask. I know the general nature of the question but not how it will be phrased. We have pointed out the impact of Britain leaving the European Union on both the Republic and Northern Ireland. Mr. Cameron is well aware of that.

Deputy McDonald mentioned the First Minister in Scotland. My understanding is that the SNP will be voting to stay in the European Union but if the overall British electorate, including that part of it in Northern Ireland, decided to leave, the party might take a different view about a second run at independence. However, that is a matter for the SNP. In that sense, it is important for us.

In fairness to Deputy Martin, his party stated during the referendum campaign on the fiscal stability treaty that it is important to protect the business element relating to this country whereby jobs are created, people are employed and families can have careers. We will protect it and our people voted to protect it. We have strong trade links with the British economy, as well as strong links with the euro and the eurozone.

This is a pathetic attempt to link us with Tory Government but Deputy McDonald has tried that before. We are very different parties and personalities.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Taoiseach, I want to let Deputy Higgins in.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The county and country I live in are very different to those inhabited by the British Tories to whom Deputy McDonald might be referring. I wait with interest to see what the Prime Minister will present. He clearly indicated to me that he does not want to interfere with the principle of the freedom of movement within the European Union.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Fair play. He cannot. There is a treaty.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He was very clear about that. It is a cornerstone of the European treaties in any event and he made that quite clear. I will wait and see what the detail of his presentations will be when he makes them in October.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I wonder if the Taoiseach has any understanding of the nature of the debate that is opening up in Britain now on the proposal of the Tory Government to hold a referendum on the European Union. Does he understand that a referendum on EU membership is due to be held in Britain by 2017 and that are powerful arguments being put forward by ordinary people there - and working class people in particular - who would vote against the European Union? I wonder if the Taoiseach understands that the manner in which the EU, as part of the troika, attempted to humiliate and cow the people and Government of Greece in recent months, showed the Union as representing the major capitalist financiers within the financial markets of Europe and not the interests of the poor, the working class or the small farming community in Greece.

Does the Taoiseach understand that the British people would be fully justified in drawing the conclusion that the EU is utterly hypocritical when it proclaims in its treaties that it is a zone of solidarity, democratic rights and human rights when it trampled all over the rights of the Greek people and its democracy, for example, and also over the democratic and social rights of the Irish people when it cowed governments like the Taoiseach's to repay the private financiers of Europe for their reckless gambling in the Irish property bubble? Does he understand that he and his Government's shameful and opportunistic support for the troika in attempting to cow the Greek people has strengthened the argument among ordinary people in Britain to oppose the workings of the EU and will be another justification for them opposing it? Has he seen the opinion polls in Britain that show that despite the rantings of the Tory press, substantial cohorts of ordinary people in Britain oppose the neoliberal drive of the EU, particularly in respect of privatisation, and stand for bringing critical services like water, rail and transport into public ownership again?

Is the Taoiseach being informed about the how the debate is shaping up for the referendum campaign ahead? Does he know that socialists and significant elements of the labour movement with a small "L" in Britain are seriously discussing how they will campaign against the right-wing and neoliberal policies of the EU in the referendum and, very importantly, will counterpose to the xenophobia, racism and false right-wing populism of parties like UKIP and the fascist elements in Britain who are attempting to take advantage of the disasters that neoliberal capitalism has inflicted the idea of a really democratic and socialist Europe where real social solidarity can be based on breaking the power of the major corporations, which predominate - all one needs to do is look at Volkswagen and its scandalous carry-on in the past week and the massive tax avoidance of major multinationals operating in Europe and here - and genuine social and democratic ownership of key services in the interests of our people, including a banking industry in the interests of all people? That is the basis on which genuine solidarity can be built among the peoples of Europe. We see the scandalous situation of 25 million Europeans, particularly young people, cast on the stones of unemployment by the type of Europe that the Taoiseach and his colleagues in the EU have created. Those are the terms of a riveting debate that opens up in Britain. I doubt that the Taoiseach is aware of it though.

5:25 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is wrong; I am well aware of it. He asked whether I am receiving information about these things. Of course, I am. I listen to the news like everyone else. I do not get to read all of the material that comes out but we are regularly kept informed, through our own ambassador and people in Britain, about what is happening. The answer to the Deputy's question is "Yes". He asked whether I understand what is going on; I do, absolutely. All the polls, indicators and commentators and all the people who knew everything got it wrong in Britain. The people voted, as they are entitled to do, and elected a Government with an overall majority, small though it may be.

The Deputy spoke about ordinary people, working class people and working people. When the Greek prime minister was elected on the basis of a very populist set of proposals, Greece had been approaching a 1% growth rate but that went back. When the prime minister came to the European Council on the assumption that there would be massive write-offs, he found that he was talking to people who must also deal with ordinary, everyday people. The Spanish prime minister was not in a position to say that he would write-off €36 billion worth of moneys Spain had given to help Greece and the French president was not prepared to say that he would write-off €42 billion of the contribution France made. That was followed by a referendum and another election.

The Greek prime minister, with his new Government, must make very difficult choices and decisions because one has to pay one's way in the world. The assumption that one can have everything for nothing and that somebody else will pay continuously is not the way it is going to be.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Boyd Barrett is waiting patiently to ask his question.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Labour Party in Britain is perfectly entitled to decide who it wants to elect and that is what it did. I wish Mr. Corbyn the very best of luck in his endeavours. Obviously, there will be a vigorous, enthusiastic and energetic internal debate about where the party is headed with that leadership and that is its business.

In respect of where Europe is moving, we have contributed to the base erosion of profit-sharing debate. The OECD visited here recently, looked at Ireland and said that we are moving in the right direction. Challenges still exist. Those reports will be published very shortly and we have contributed to them to be up-front with everybody in terms of our corporate tax rate, which will not be moving from 12.5%, but also in respect of other issues that were central to that debate.

With the greatest of respect of the people of Britain, they have not had the same taithí, as one would put it in our native tongue, in dealing with referenda on European issues. We have had referenda over the years, such as the Maastricht and Nice referenda, and people understand the relationship between the Commission, the Parliament and the Council. They have not had that opportunity in Britain with the exception of the referendum to join the EEC. Many people in Britain would not see the EU as a friend. Whatever the question is and whenever it is put, they will be the ultimate deciders.

As a neighbouring island, we take a very clear view that the EU would be stronger if Britain can remain in it. That is through the will of the British people. In respect of both Northern Ireland and our business connections, jobs and exports, it is in our interest that Britain remains in the EU and we are quite entitled to develop that argument. As I said to Deputy Martin earlier, where we disagree regarding an issue about which we feel strongly, we will say so very clearly. When the British prime minister goes to the European Council and says that these are the detailed proposals he is putting forward, we need to look at them carefully. I do not favour treaty change because it will open up a range of other issues not just for this country but for many others. It may be the case that when he presents his detailed proposals, they may not require treaty change in the first instance. For all the arguments concerning right-wing and left-wing populism, neoliberalism and all the things that swirl around in British political circles, at the end of the day, the people must mark the paper.

Irrespective of the nature of the question, it is in our interest for it to be answered by way of Britain staying a member of the European Union in order to protect jobs in the Deputy's constituency and to continue exports from his constituency to Britain and everywhere else. That is what I want the situation to be. In the meantime we will strongly defend our national interest where it affects our country and I have made that clear to the British Prime Minister.

5:35 pm

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I express great relief that the Taoiseach suggests his personality is very different from the British Prime Minister's because I would hate to think he had anything in common with some of the rather bizarre goings-on of the British Prime Minister in his younger university days, with strange engagements with pigs. That, at least, is a relief.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should stick to the politics.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Less confidence inspiring is the Taoiseach's attitude to the concerns expressed by the British Prime Minister, Mr. David Cameron, and what lies behind those concerns. There is a need for the Taoiseach to very sharply distance himself and this country from what is motivating the Prime Minister in his attitude towards the EU referendum.

I am less concerned about the European Union than I am about the future of Europe and European citizens, which is an important distinction. Would the Taoiseach agree that Europe is at quite a dangerous crossroads and the motivations behind a possible Brexit point in a rather dangerous and worrying direction? To put it simply, is the British Prime Minister not pandering to the racist and xenophobic forces in British society, particularly UKIP, whose anti-immigrant, anti-refugee rhetoric is alarming?

This comes against a background of a very worrying rise of the far-right, xenophobic, racist and in some cases outright fascist forces in Europe, most notably manifest by the growth of Golden Dawn, outright neo-Nazis, in Greece. The British Prime Minister is pandering to these people. They are getting an audience because disillusionment with the European Union is reaching crisis levels. Certain forces are willing in a cynical, nasty and reactionary way to try to channel that disillusionment with Europe in a very dark direction. We must distance ourselves from this and call it for what it is because I believe that is what the Prime Minister is doing and the dogs on the street know it. He is pandering to forces on his right that he is worried could outflank the Tories and that is a dangerous road to go down.

Is it not also the case that the disillusionment that these forces can tap into is the responsibility of the European Union itself given the kinds of things it has done to the people of Greece when they demanded an end to austerity, change, fairness, respect for their democratic mandate and were instead bullied into submission? They were told by the European Central Bank, an unaccountable, unelected body, that it would cut off the money if they tried to end the austerity policies as they promised. Is that not discrediting the European Union?

I take some hope from a different kind of reaction to disillusionment with the European Union in the form of the support for Mr. Jeremy Corbyn, MP. However, when one looks at the vicious reactionary assault of the Tory press on Mr. Corbyn, one sees the kinds of forces we are ranged against. I would like to see the Taoiseach echo some of the things Mr. Corbyn is saying. I met Mr. Corbyn's economic advisor, Mr. Richard Murphy, the renowned international tax expert who is advising him on his economic policies. He told me something very interesting that relates to the issue of competition and so on that the Taoiseach mentioned, which is one of the other concerns of the British Prime Minister in all this. Mr. Murphy told how he used to be in business here in Ireland when he engaged in the manufacture of game boards for Trivial Pursuit in County Clare. He said he had an interesting engagement with our tax regime at the time he was setting that up. He said he met IDA Ireland officials who were selling him the advantages of the low corporate tax regime here and special tax designated zones.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Deputy, we are on Question Time.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am nearly finished.

He was taken to some part of the west and was told that basically, he would have to pay not tax if he set up his business there. His response was that was all very fine, not paying tax, but he asked where were the roads and said taxes have to be paid in order to have roads. He went on from that to say that the key issue facing Europe - Mr. Corbyn is now also saying this - is that unless we tax the multinationals and corporates to a far greater extent than we are doing now, the gap between rich and poor in Europe, which is growing spectacularly, will undermine the fabric of not just the European Union but social cohesion across Europe.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Deputy.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That was his point. It is that sort of disillusionment, that growing gap between rich and poor, that growing alienation from the political institutions across Europe that is the biggest threat to Europe and the European Union.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Deputy, it is Question Time.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy talks about Europe being at a dangerous crossroads and he is right. There are a range of issues that are very sensitive, very difficult to resolve and very real. At last week's European Council meeting, which was a very constructive meeting, the fault lines that now apply because of what is happening in Syria, Libya and other places were very clear with more than 1 million refugees in south Lebanon and 1 million in Jordan. Were both of these countries to collapse because there is no real plan to deal with that humanitarian crisis, the issue for Europe would not just be millions of refugees in single figures but millions in double figures.

When one hears a prime minister saying that what happens when refugees leave Turkey, which is a very short distance from some of the Greek isles, that as soon as a boat appears, dinghies that are grossly overladen with people are ripped asunder with knives so that they end up in the water and have to be saved or drowned, one can understand the challenge that this presents. The huge numbers of people, including women and children, walking into small countries in many cases exhausted and expected to be registered under the Dublin Agreement and the Schengen Agreement, has presented logistical issues they are unable to cope with.

Germany has taken in 500,000 refugees this year. Ireland, a small country that is not a member of Schengen and not inside the protocol, is because of our own tradition offering voluntarily to take in 4,000 refugees. Clearly the discussions that took place in New York yesterday are not conclusive in respect of what is going to happen in Syria. In this regard I have referred on other occasions to why things should be done to deal with migration. I recently opened a facility where one of the managing directors was a young woman who came here as a refugee with her parents. She was educated here and is contributing greatly to our society in a really important position.

The Deputy made the point about young people being unemployed and he is right. Let us consider where Ireland was four and a half years ago, locked out of all markets, interest rates of 15%, borrowings of €22.5 billion and haemorrhaging thousands of jobs every year.

However, in a short time, because the Government and people made difficult decisions, some economic indicators say we will grow by more than 5.5% this year and even more next year. Whether that will be the case or not remains to be seen. In many countries that have real difficulties, it is a question of making difficult decisions in those countries' interest to move them forward. It is grossly unacceptable to have 25 million young people unemployed. Everybody accepts that. We would like to think that due to our efforts here we will see more people with experience coming back next year than will leave.

Deputy Boyd Barrett mentioned right and left and extremes. Where young people are not given the opportunity to be challenged in terms of their careers and opportunities, they get frustrated, angry and take to the streets. They could be either on the right or the left. The centre, centre right and centre left are often forgotten. That is the momentum in terms of having to pull people in from the sides and move forward with any individual country. The Deputy might differ on that, from a political perspective. I am glad he said that one has to pay taxes to have roads. One has to pay taxes to have any service because nothing is free in this world. I hope that by the time we get to 2018, our country will have a balanced budget and the rules of the European Commission that tie us down in terms of the fiscal stability treaty will be very much relaxed.

5:45 pm

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Could we get the rich to pay taxes?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The more people we have working, the less tax they will have to pay and the greater the range of services there can be.

Written Answers follow Adjournment.