Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are in the midst of a full-blown national housing crisis. It is a crisis which needs to be tackled with determination and a real sense of urgency. As the Tánaiste knows, rents are soaring. Up to 130,000 applicants are on social housing waiting lists and housing supply is minimal. The rent caps in the rent supplement scheme are so out of line with market rents that they are little more than a fantasy. The Central Bank deposit rules have made it incredibly difficult for first-time buyers in major urban areas and many of those who are looking to trade up are, in effect, trapped by the 20% deposit rule. Mortgage interest relief is gone for home buyers and banks are leaning on indebted landlords who have good tenants to force them to push rents towards market rents. Banks are repossessing homes with increasing zeal and do not even have to comply now with the code of conduct on mortgage arrears before proceeding with the repossession of a home. The cruellest face of the housing crisis is the scandal of homelessness with people sleeping rough on our streets and 1,500 children living in emergency accommodation.

With each passing day, we are treated to another leak about what the Government intends to do to tackle the crisis. Today's instalment is tax breaks for landlords if they accept tenants on rent supplement or the housing assistance payment. That proposal will simply not work, primarily because it will not add a single new unit to housing stock. Second, if a landlord has the option of accepting rent of €1,400 a month in the private market or taking €800 per month under the rent supplement or HAP scheme, he or she would want one hell of a tax break to choose the latter. Every Deputy is inundated day after day with housing related issues. The elephant in the room is the lack of housing supply. The consistent message we are all getting from the construction sector is that it is simply not viable to build. There are a number of steps the Government needs to take urgently. First, it must examine why it costs so much to build a home in Ireland today. It must examine the State controlled costs which are an important part of those input costs, including development levies and the Irish Water connection which I am told is adding €3,000 to €4,000 to the cost of building a new home. It must make finance available so that residential construction can get underway. In July, a €500 million was announced through the Strategic Investment Fund, but it is not yet up and running. It will be towards the end of the year at the earliest before it is operational and I am told that the cost of borrowing from the fund will be in the region of 14%, which is absolutely mad at a time when the State is borrowing at record low interest rates of between 1% and 2%.

Within the Tánaiste's own Department, she needs to lift the rent caps immediately to bring some sense of reality to the rent supplement and HAP schemes and to introduce a level of rent certainty. This is a crisis in the here and now. It is all very fine to talk about grandiose plans for billions of euro to build thousands of houses, but the reality is that tonight 1,500 children in Ireland will sleep in emergency accommodation. There are 130,000 families on the social housing list. It is a scandal, it is not acceptable and it is not going to get any better without major intervention. There is no building and there is no supply and the problem is only going to get worse. What is the Government going to do about it?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Notwithstanding the general economic recovery that is under way and that, thankfully is getting stronger every day, I accept that as a country we have a legacy issue in relation to housing arising, as Deputy Michael McGrath well knows, from the collapse in the building industry. Leaving that aside, I note the following on rent supplement which I am not sure people like the Deputy particularly understand. Through rent supplement, we provide housing and homes for 65,000 individuals and families. It is one of the largest suppliers of rental accommodation in the country. What we do and have been doing for some time is to negotiate rents on an individual basis with landlords. The 65,000 homes in question constitute approximately 30% of the entire rental market in the State and our concern as a major player in the private rented market is about what will happen if we simply follow the demands of some landlords who, I have to say, are excessively greedy. The Deputy referred to it himself and let us not put a tooth in it. They are excessively greedy and they are looking for more and more money every couple of months to a scale that is not particularly justified on economic grounds. We can understand that they may be looking to recover losses from the crash, but what we are exploring as a Government currently is the provision of rent certainty. In other European countries where the rental model works quite well, rents are stable over a three-year period or longer in relation to the tenancy agreement.

Coming back to rent supplement, I will give the Deputy the figures to the end of September. We have negotiated new rental agreements which have generally involved significant increases in rents on a case-by-case basis. Working with the family or individual concerned, we have negotiated almost 2,700 agreements through the new, improved community welfare service that the Department of Social Protection offers since we took over the service from the HSE a couple of years ago. The Deputy will know that we work on a protocol with Threshold and a number of other agencies, including Simon on a smaller scale, and have actually negotiated over 1,200 agreements on that basis.

That means that we have negotiated this year. Of the 65,000 people and families in rental accommodation, many of their landlords do not regularly raise rents, but there is a cohort of landlords who do and often ask tenants to leave houses, frequently because a returning emigrant child is going to use the family property. That is fine and valid.

I just want the Deputy to be sure. I want to send out the message to people on rent supplement - we text over 40,000 such customers on a monthly basis, but I want all Deputies to hear this and pass the message on to people who attend their clinics with difficulties - that, if they contact the community welfare service, not only can we negotiate rent successfully, but we will, as the statistics show. This should assist families. The one-to-one contact is also a way of reaching out for more detailed assistance in a variety of other areas, for instance, helping individuals or families into education, training and employment. It is a different kind of in-depth service.

In June 2012, we raised rents across the board by an average of €12,000. Two months later, landlords were back looking for another 10% to 20%. What I want-----

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Introduce rent controls.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Government sorted out those landlords, but what about the ones who are selling their houses?

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste is talking a load of waffle. Introduce rent controls.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste has the floor.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Some 65,000 people on rent supplement-----

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I do not know whether the Tánaiste realises that there is an emergency.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and getting good homes from landlords is not waffle.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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It is waffle.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That shows the level of Sinn Féin's cynicism about our country.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Cynicism. I do not think that the Tánaiste is even on the ground. She is on another planet. She does not know what is happening.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please. The Tánaiste to conclude.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Sinn Féin denied-----

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Tánaiste is denying.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----this country over and over again. It shows an appalling level of cynicism that Sinn Féin would decry-----

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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This shows the Tánaiste's level of understanding.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----65,000 families and individuals being assisted through rent supplement with housing-----

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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For God's sake. This is ridiculous.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----that, for the most part, is good. I just want to send out the message to Deputy Michael McGrath-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The majority are suffering.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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What about prefabs?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----that we are doing this on an individual basis. It is in addition to the investment of €3.8 billion in building and acquiring homes and refitting those that have been closed. Deputies know that the practice of voids in county councils around the country, particularly Dublin where it has been a major problem, is being brought to an end. Those houses are being given out this year in their hundreds-----

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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That is all gone.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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When? We have been hearing that for years.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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There is no supply.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----to families that require housing. Houses are being built as well.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Out of touch.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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People want to hear solutions to this crisis.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is right.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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If the rent supplement-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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They wanted them ten years ago but did not get them.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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If I may, Deputy, please.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Do not talk, Deputy Durkan.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil privatised social housing by handing it over to the private sector.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Could we have order, please? Deputy Michael McGrath has the floor.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Deputy Durkan's party has had power for four and a half years.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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People want to hear-----

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil privatised the whole system.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Ten years ago, Deputy Michael McGrath signed up to-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Listen, Members.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Leas-Cheann Comhairle stop the clock, please?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies, we cannot hear.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil did not build social housing.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It was Fianna Fáil that caused the problems by privatising the system.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil only built nine social houses in Trim over 14 years.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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It did not build many social houses during the boom.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Will Members settle down, please, while Deputy Michael McGrath asks a supplementary question?

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have clearly touched a nerve.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Michael McGrath touched no nerve but his own.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This situation has gone out of control.

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil touched a nerve with the Irish people.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, but Deputy Michael McGrath has the floor.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Let me tell the Government Deputies a few home truths.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I thought that Fine Gael members were landlords.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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If the rent supplement scheme is so flexible and accommodating, why are people becoming homeless?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Yes.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The Deputy's party was there for years.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are all practising politicians. We know what is happening on the ground.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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And we know what caused it as well.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The level of flexibility that the Tánaiste talked about is not there.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil privatised social housing.

A Deputy:

Deputy Finian McGrath was a part of-----

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Stagg does not like listening to the truth.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil handed it over to landlords. Money was coming out of its ears.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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There are many more homeless now.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The chickens have come home to roost.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Durkan, please.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, but I get upset when I hear that kind of nonsense.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Michael McGrath has the floor.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Bernard is upset.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Not for the first time.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Throw him out.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Never in government.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The truth of the matter is-----

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil handed the whole thing over to private landlords and is now complaining about it.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, please.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Throw him out, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. Deputy Stagg is harassing Deputy Michael McGrath.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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This is Leaders' Questions, Deputy Stagg.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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People want to hear solutions.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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They want us to debate rationally-----

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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We will not get that from you.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----what is a major crisis facing the country.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil handed it over to private landlords.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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All we will get from Deputy Stagg is a rant, obviously. It is pathetic.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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An apology would be a good start.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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It would nearly-----

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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People are homeless, and all that Deputy Stagg is doing is throwing mud across the floor. It is pathetic.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Get-out clauses for landlords.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Stagg sums up the arrogance of the Government on this issue. He will not even listen to the truth. The reality is-----

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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We know the truth. Fianna Fáil privatised social housing and handed it over to landlords.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Michael McGrath is in denial.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies, please.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In my constituency, the rent cap for a family with two children is €725. There is not a house to be had-----

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The landlords are Fianna Fáil's buddies, to whom it handed over the sector.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----for less than €1,200. That gap is not being bridged on a day-to-day basis by the community welfare officer, CWO. The Tánaiste is referring to the tenancy protection scheme that is in place in Dublin city-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Not at all.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and Cork city.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I will pass the Deputy the details.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not happening on the ground, Tánaiste. That is the truth.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Here are the figures.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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You are the biggest cause of homelessness.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Does Deputy Michael McGrath accept that-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has a question, please, Tánaiste.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Lashing out at landlords will not solve the problem. They will charge what they can. That is the reality.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil knew that when it handed the sector over to them.

A Deputy:

How many landlords are there in the Labour Party?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Was Deputy Michael McGrath encouraging that?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies, please.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil handed it over to them lock, stock and barrel.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry, but this is not a debate. This is Question Time.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We support rent certainty.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Cowen has produced a comprehensive document on the issue. If Government Deputies wish to discuss the record, the reality is that, in 2009, some €670 million was given to local authorities for social housing investment. Last year, the figure was €88 million. There are 4,000 local authority homes still boarded up. I know my own area best. In Cork city and county, there are approximately 700 voids. Under the great announcement from the Minister, Deputy Kelly, this summer, there will be enough funding to bring 200 of those to the market.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There were 2,000 when Fianna Fáil left office.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Two hundred out of 700. That is the truth.

In her response, the Tánaiste ignored the issue of supply, to which I dedicated much of my time when putting my questions to her. Will we examine why the cost of building in Ireland is so high and the funding model? The State's response has been abysmal. At €500 million, it is a Mickey Mouse fund and is still not available. I am being told that it will cost 14% at a time when the State is borrowing at between 1% and 2%.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is over time.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It will not work. It is making non-viable projects even less viable. Let us give people some hope. Let us discuss solutions-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is a bit late in the day for that.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and what can be done with the rent supplement scheme, rent certainty and increasing supply. There are bottlenecks. The situation is only going from bad to worse. It will not improve. Leaking this, that and the other everyday about what the Government is considering doing is of no consequence or use to people who are facing into homeless, are homeless or have been ten years on local authority housing lists. Let us deal with solutions.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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This is on the Government's watch.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy's question was long on analysis, but I do not believe that I heard a single suggestion from him.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste did.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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He made approximately six of them.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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He said that landlords could charge what they liked.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I said that they would charge what they liked. That is the reality.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Fianna Fáil, in its previous incarnation,-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Here we go. Get out the violins.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----set the tone for how landlords learned to behave.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Skip the history lesson and give us some solutions.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That was because Fianna Fáil decided sometime around 2000, in conjunction with many local authority managements-----

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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And Deputy Finian McGrath.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----that the solution to housing supply issues in Ireland lay almost entirely with the private sector. I do not-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not true.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government cut funding by 70%.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please, Deputy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry, but the evidence-----

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste is talking through her hat. The Government cut funding by 70%. That is the truth.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The evidence is there.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The evidence is that this Government cut funding by 70%.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please, Deputy. You asked a question. Do you want a reply? The Tánaiste has the floor.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy just said that landlords could charge what they liked.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not what I said, and the Tánaiste knows it.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Fianna Fáil agree with that?

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not true.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is what the Deputy said.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I said that they would charge what they wanted and that we supported rent certainty. That is the truth.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry, but it is what the Deputy said.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is what the Deputy said.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, Deputy. Resume your seat.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy said landlords can charge what they like.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not what I said.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I suggest that Fianna Fáil send a message to landlords who think they can charge what they like, regardless of people at work who are renting-----

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They will charge what those in the market will pay. The Tánaiste knows that.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry-----

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They will charge what the market will pay.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, Deputies.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have learnt a lot about markets since people like the Deputies acted as cheerleaders for the banks, which caused the banks to collapse, and with it the construction industry.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The banks collapsed themselves.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What is happening at present is that the Government is allocating, out of a recovering economy, a significant amount of capital funding to do a whole series of things. First, it is to reopen the void properties-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When?

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not happening.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Four thousand.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and second, it will build new houses. There are announcements and allocations to both the Deputy's own local authority and to local authorities nationwide.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One hundred and twenty in County Meath.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Third, approved housing bodies will build houses, and fourth, local authorities will buy houses on the private housing market to house people. It is a four-part solution.

As for the Deputy's specific question about the strategic investment fund, yes, half a billion euro has been allocated to housing in that regard. While I cannot give the Deputy a response now on the exact rate of return required by the strategic investment fund, I will get that information for the Deputy. Because those deals have not commenced, that information has not been available to me or generally available in the public domain. However, I welcome Fianna Fáil's conversion to the notion of rent certainty because, in respect of making progress on policy in Ireland, I refer to getting an agreement from all of the parties in this House to opt for a model based on our experience. Many Members have travelled to or lived in countries such as France and Germany, where there are models.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Do it, so, and we will support the Government.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In addition, there are countries such as Austria, a small country like Ireland, from which models of rent certainty are available. I welcome Fianna Fáil's commitment to put manners on landlords who think they can charge what they like.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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For most of the lifetime of this Dáil, Sinn Féin has been raising concerns about the sale of NAMA's loan books, including its Northern loan book. There is now a growing scandal around the revelations that an illegal £15 million fixer's fee was to be paid as part of the sell-off of this Northern loan book. As the Tánaiste may be aware, this matter was brought to NAMA's attention by PIMCO, a potential US bidder. It also advised NAMA that the proposed recipients of this fixer's fee included Frank Cushnahan, a member of NAMA's Northern advisory committee. Mr. Cushnahan originally was appointed by Fianna Fáil and was reappointed by the present Government. NAMA initially claimed that its Northern advisory committee was not privy to confidential information regarding this sale. However, it since has been disclosed that this committee discussed potential purchases on at least two occasions before the loan book was sold at a huge loss to Irish taxpayers. Mr. Cushnahan was present at these meetings. He later acted as an adviser to a bidder in the sale of the Northern loan book. Has the Tánaiste been briefed on these matters? Has she raised them with the Taoiseach and the Minister, Deputy Noonan? Is it acceptable, in the light of these disturbing revelations, that the Minister, Deputy Noonan, continues to protect NAMA from public scrutiny? NAMA is an arm of the State and I hope the Tánaiste agrees that it should be accountable. When will the Minister, Deputy Noonan, come before the Dáil and make a statement on these serious issues of public interest? Moreover, as I have requested, along with Deputy Pearse Doherty and others, will the Government establish a commission of investigation into the management and operations of NAMA?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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First, I am advised that the loan sale was executed in a proper manner. There has been much confusion and conflation in the coverage of this matter. Much of the commentary has come in detail from various sources within Northern Ireland. My understanding is that there is an ongoing examination of a wide variety of statements and allegations made by different individuals in the North by a committee at Stormont. The second point is that the loan portfolio was sold for €1.5 billion because that is what the properties securing the loans were worth. In this regard, one has a constant comparison of pre-crash values with post-crash sales. I believe Deputy Adams has told Members previously that he owns a residential house, as well as a holiday home, and I do not know whether he has another house in the Republic. However, I would argue strongly that before the crash, quite a lot of houses rose to heights of being worth approximately half a million euro, certainly in the Dublin area. I do not know whether the Deputy has a house there.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Dublin which?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Subsequent to the fall, those houses ended up being worth €200,000 to €300,000 in some cases.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As a result of the banks. The banks caused that.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Subsequently, in terms of the recovery-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The banks caused that.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Subsequently, in terms of-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The banks caused that.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In terms of the recovery-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The banks caused that.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We got that, Deputy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----there was an improvement-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government does not understand that. The banks caused that.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There was an improvement in those values.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy is arguing that a loan portfolio that was worth €5.7 billion at the top of the boom and was sold for a lesser value-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A loss.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----when we had a very deep crash and NAMA was responsible for getting the market going again-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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They call it negative equity. The banks call it negative equity.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This fall in value of course represents a fall in value to the taxpayer, but it was caused by the banking crash and by the collapse in values.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was a fire sale also.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let us be clear about that.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They call it negative equity. The absurdity.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste has the floor. Please.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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It is absurd.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Consequently, there is no reason in particular to refer to the pre-crash value, other than perhaps as a cause of great regret that the fall was indeed so great and so substantial.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A credit pyramid caused by the banks.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

NAMA paid no moneys and-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was a credit pyramid caused by the banks.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----had no relationship with any party on the loan sale against whom allegations of wrongdoing now are being made. The loan portfolio was sold after an open process to the highest bidder for what it was worth. As I stated, attempting to put NAMA into what is a highly complicated Northern tale is not necessarily, I suggest to Deputy Adams, giving the full picture. NAMA did not appear before the Northern Ireland Committee for Finance and Personnel. What NAMA has done is to appear before committees of this House and speak in detail, because NAMA is an entity established by the Irish Government. NAMA does not have a responsibility in respect of the Northern Executive.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For the loss to Irish taxpayers.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What NAMA has done is to appear before committees of this House and answer questions. All the questions and briefings are available both on the website of this House and, I understand, on the NAMA website. The Northern Ireland committee submitted a list of questions to NAMA regarding the sales process. NAMA responded to that on 4 September with detailed responses to the questions, running to several hundred pages, which also are available on the website. They also are available on the website of the Committee of Public Accounts, to which NAMA is accountable on behalf of Irish taxpayers in this House.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste stated that this is a Northern tale. She stated that it was being dealt with by a committee of the Assembly. She then conceded that the Government is not co-operating with the Northern Assembly committee - that NAMA has refused to appear before it, as has the Minister.

I received, as a result of a freedom of information request, the briefing pack for Ministers on this issue. It states that the conflation of the issues involved in this is dangerous. It also states, and the Tánaiste has ignored this although it has been the main thrust of my question and the main thrust of our concerns, that the concern was that fees were to be paid to a Mr. Cushnahan who was a former member of NAMA's Northern Ireland advisory committee and that this would constitute a clear conflict of interest and would cause reputational damage to all involved. That is the core it. Fixer's fees of £15 million were to be paid and this person has been named as one of those who was to be a recipient.

The chairman of NAMA, Mr. Frank Daly, says he briefed the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, in full on this £15 million fixer's fee, yet the Minister, Deputy Noonan, failed to suspend the sales process. He failed to inform the Office of the First Minister and the Office of the Deputy First Ministers. Apparently, these matters were also brought to the Taoiseach's attention in a letter in February 2014. Yesterday, the Taoiseach refused to confirm this. Can the Tánaiste confirm it? The businessman, Mr. Gareth Graham, has testified that he possesses thousands of recordings of phone calls by Mr. Frank Cushnahan, exposing inappropriate and, possibly, illegal conduct. This is, as the Tánaiste said, being investigated by the Assembly finance committee and the police. The US Department of Justice is also investigating it. The Irish Government is defending it despite the move by all these agencies to address these matters.

The Tánaiste is the second most senior member of the Government. We know there is a crisis in housing and a crisis across a range of matters that are pressing down on citizens.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is a crisis in Northern Ireland too.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We also have this sell-off, with the allegation of an illegal fixers' fee of £15 million being paid. The Tánaiste says the Labour Party is in government to keep Fine Gael in check and so she must have a view on the Minister for Finance's handling of these issues. I would like the Tánaiste to answer the following question directly. Has the Tánaiste asked the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, and the Taoiseach about this? Surely, as Tánaiste and leader of the Labour Party she would agree, in the light of all these disclosures which are not Northern matters because, as has been said, NAMA is a national body and the money involved, in terms of the loans that are being sold, is taxpayers' money, that there is enough evidence to justify a series of investigations. Would the Tánaiste support the establishment of a commission of investigation into the management and operations of NAMA?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there anything in the Republic of Ireland that Deputy Adams regards as being good?

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, lots of things, but mostly the people whom the Government is letting down.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Adams, please, you have had a good innings.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste asked-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Adams told us previously that he did not need to know about economics.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not say that to the Tánaiste.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I note that the other day the Deputy, in an interview, said he knows a lot about economics.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the Tánaiste's point?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We might get an answer to the question now.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I suspect Deputy Adams also knows a lot about governance-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The conservation grant.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----including of organisations of which he was never even a member, but that is another issue.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is a scurrilous sneer.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is being inquired into. It is a Northern matter.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not a Northern matter.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Everything Deputy Adams has said relates to various individuals within the Northern business community or, indeed, individuals from other communities who have come forward-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But nothing to do with the Government.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to suggest there was something untoward in relation-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To the fire sale.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to how property matters were dealt with-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The briefing concedes it, Tánaiste.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----in respect of the North of Ireland and distressed assets in the North of Ireland which, unfortunately - and I agree with Deputy Adams on this-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will have to examine my conscience.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy never had one.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----have ended up being sold-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

At a loss to NAMA.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----way below the values attributed to those assets at the height of the boom. That is my point about economics.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Many of these are people's homes.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I share the Deputy's distress on that. Does Deputy Adams agree, given that he at all times talks about Northern institutions-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please answer the question.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the Tánaiste not curious?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can Deputy Adams not allow the Northern Ireland institutions, which are investigating this matter-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government will not co-operate with them.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----including the Police Service of Northern Ireland and agencies from the UK that deal with fraud and serious crime issues-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The USA.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As I understand it, those different organisations, including some organisations from the US-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Except here.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----are inquiring into this. Does that not suggest that Deputy Adams lacks confidence in the Northern Ireland institutions to make inquiries that could lead to a conclusion of those investigations?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I believe Deputy Adams is engaging in a game of charades.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The biggest charade is what the Tánaiste is doing.

A Deputy:

We are talking about hundreds of millions of taxpayers' money.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is extremely important-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Order, please.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The suggestion is that a substantial sum of money was to be awarded to a number of parties involved-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Awarded?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am reading in the newspapers about the allegations being made by different people-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the Tánaiste not talk to the Taoiseach?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----that a substantial sum of money was potentially going to be given, shared, awarded - whatever term the Deputy wants to use - to particular individuals involved in particular deals. Rightly, the policing authorities are examining this.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government is not.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would suggest, Deputy, that that is the proper-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about transparency?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----issue that needs to be addressed. If it is being suggested, as it seems to be, that sums of money were being paid to individuals in a particular way, then it is right that the policing authorities should investigate that.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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And that NAMA answer questions.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is right that the other agencies should investigate it and also that the Northern Ireland committee should investigate it-----

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Should the Government fully co-operate in those inquiries?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and should produce answers. In regard to the Minister, Deputy Noonan, he is available to the Committee of Public Accounts and to all the other committees of this House-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will he come in here?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy Leader of Sinn Féin, Deputy McDonald, is a member of the Committee of Public Accounts.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, come into the Dáil Chamber?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I suggest that if Deputy Adams sees further merit in committees of this House, or members of Sinn Féin who are members of the Committee of Public Accounts, examining the matter further, they should do that.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are going to do that.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They should do that because it is important in terms of governance and integrity of practices in the North.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are going to do it.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But the ECB should not appear before the banking inquiry because it is in a different jurisdiction.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Wallace.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It has not been a good day at the office for Deputy Adams.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Listen to Comical Ali over there.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please. I have called Deputy Wallace.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I am a little taken aback by the position which the Tánaiste is taking on NAMA. I raised this issue with her before the summer recess, when I marked her card that all was not well with NAMA. I told her that it would do her no favour to do nothing about this. Since then, a lot more questions than answers have been thrown up. At a meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts on 9 July, the CEO of NAMA, Mr. Brendan McDonagh, argued that the sale of the Project Eagle portfolio represented the best commercial option for NAMA as, according to him, there had been little or no investor interest in acquiring either Northern Ireland assets or the associated loans. This is not consistent with statements contained in the NAMA Northern Ireland advisory committee's minutes of the meeting of 7 October 2013. At that meeting representatives of CBRE gave a summary of the Northern Ireland real estate market. NAMA was represented at that meeting by, among others, Mr. Frank Daly. CBRE said that, positively, rent and yield forecasts across the commercial property sector were predominantly stabilising or strengthening and added that US investment funds were showing interest.

Cerberus has been able to sell loans for double what it paid for them in a very short period. Why could NAMA not do that? If due diligence with NAMA in Dublin for Project Eagle cost €1.8 million, can the Tánaiste explain why the same work in the North should cost €21 million? That is what Cerberus paid over for four weeks' work. NAMA had to do more work on due diligence than the people working for Cerberus, including those in Brown Rudnick and Tughans. NAMA sold Project Eagle to Cerberus for approximately 27p in the pound. The missing 73p has been picked up by the Irish taxpayer, those in the South, not the North - this is not just a Northern problem.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Hear, hear.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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This is a seriously Southern problem. Cerberus went to some of the major developer players. Before it bought the portfolio, a group of individuals went around to the big developers and asked them whether they would buy their loans back for 50p in the pound. What happened? They jumped at it. However, they had to pay a fixer's fee. The £7 million in the Isle of Man that we have been talking about was only for openers. A total of £45 million has been paid to fixers.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Come on, Tánaiste.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Given that Cerberus is under criminal investigation in two countries for Project Eagle, why has that company not been disqualified from Project Arrow? How, in God's name, can the Government tolerate that? This is a portfolio with a par value of €7.2 billion which NAMA is threatening to sell for something in the region of €1 billion. Some 50% of the portfolio is residential in Ireland, in the South, and we have a housing crisis. How can the Government allow Project Arrow to go ahead? It looks like Cerberus is going buy it.

NAMA has made out that Frank Cushnahan was not privy to sensitive information or anything that was confidential with regard to Project Eagle. There was a meeting on 7 October 2013. Project Eagle was discussed in detail. This included external member feedback. If the external members, who included Frank Cushnahan and Mr. Rowntree, were given feedback, how is this consistent with the proposition that they had no confidential information? It was interesting that the chairman added that he wanted to remind members that the matter was extremely politically sensitive and that absolute confidentiality was required. It is nonsense to suggest that Frank Cushnahan did not have confidential information regarding Project Eagle. It is nonsense for NAMA to suggest that the problems are all about the purchase. There are serious problems about the sale of Project Eagle by NAMA to Cerberus and it stinks to the high heavens.

Is the Government prepared to look at this? Too many questions have not been answered. It is a serious concern for the public because it has cost them dearly. Is the Government prepared to investigate it and initiate an independent investigation? It is seriously required.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I thank the Deputy. I can understand that he has considerable detailed knowledge of this matter as he raised it on a previous day. As has been said, it is being investigated by the Police Service of Northern Ireland, the agencies dealing with serious crime and fraud in the UK and the Northern Ireland Committee for Finance and Personnel.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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But not by the Government.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Does Deputy Wallace not believe that, in the first instance, he should give the information he has in his possession? Perhaps he could go to the committee and set out the information that he knows of in open session.

I believe it is important in terms of the Northern Ireland committee-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste does not.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----that if Deputy Wallace possesses such detailed information - as he has indicated - then perhaps he should give some consideration to doing that. I am unsure whether Deputy Wallace has done it in private. I am not aware that he has done it in public because I have not seen any reference to it.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Government would not let NAMA go.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Alternatively, the appropriate committee that deals with NAMA in this House is a cross-party committee, including members of Sinn Féin, chaired by the Opposition, properly, and including Independent Members.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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The Government is limiting efforts to get to the truth on purpose.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I put it to Deputy Wallace that if he wants further examination of the detail of what he is describing-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We want a commission of investigation.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and his opinions on the matter, then perhaps he should look to speak to the Committee of Public Accounts, either in private or in public. It is the committee that deals with NAMA.

As Deputy Wallace is aware, NAMA was set up under fairly extraordinary legislation following a series of through-the-night meetings in this Chamber when it was established by the late Brian Lenihan, the then Minister for Finance. It was specifically structured - I am saying this to Sinn Féin Members as well - so that politicians would not be involved actively in any way in the management. More than almost any other structure, when it comes to legislation that this Dáil has passed, any active involvement, even at ministerial level, was actually precluded from the structure, such was the sensitivity of the case and the desire of the late Brian Lenihan, the then Minister for Finance, to avoid any direct involvement of politicians, office-holders or others in the affairs of NAMA.

I was the Labour Party finance spokesperson in the Dáil at the time. While I disagreed with the then Minister on many issues about NAMA - I see other people who were there at the time - I actually agreed that it was quite important that serving politicians were not involved in the business of NAMA. That was the structure put in place by the Dáil to avoid the situation that arose previously, leading up to the crash, when there had been an unhealthy and close connection between some politicians and the housing and development market and, perhaps, with banking institutions and all of that. We still have to hear from the banking inquiry, but I imagine it is the view of many people that many of those connections were unhealthily close. They led to bad decision-making and very bad outcomes, as Deputy Wallace has just said, for Irish taxpayers, something about which we are all extremely concerned.

I strongly suggest to Deputy Wallace that, if he has information, he should make that information available to the authorities and the committee in Northern Ireland investigating the matter. In respect of NAMA, Deputy Wallace clearly has a list of significant questions he wants to put to the agency. I strongly suggest that he uses the mechanism of the Committee of Public Accounts and the other committees of this House to progress his questions.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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It is the Government's duty to do that.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Tánaiste comes from an accountancy background and she is the leader of the Labour Party. I cannot believe that she is happy for all this stuff to be simply tossed around here between ourselves in committees. This requires a proper independent investigation, preferably by people from outside the country.

In the contribution sent in by Cerberus, whose representatives refused to go before the Northern Ireland committee, the firm stated:

The terms of Brown Rudnick's engagement by Cerberus included the payment on a success fee only basis. Brown Rudnick agreed to share the success fee with Tughans. The involvement of Brown Rudnick, their involvement of Tughans (and their respective payments on a success fee basis) were known to NAMA in advance of Cerberus being selected as the preferred bidder and its acquisition of the Project Eagle portfolio.

NAMA cannot wash its hands of what has happened with Project Eagle.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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It just does not stack up.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The proceeds of the sale of Project Eagle are the proceeds of crime and the Criminal Assets Bureau should now get involved. CAB could get an interim freezing order in the High Court within a few days and stop the profits being taken offshore. We know, for example, that Cerberus staff were forcing borrowers to pay them back loans urgently and were telling frightened borrowers to talk to Cardinal Capital, another American hedge fund, as it had been lined up for the refinancing side of the loans which had been legally taken over by Cerberus. We will not get the truth of this until the Government is happy to initiate a proper independent inquiry. I ask Tánaiste please not to leave as part of her legacy the fact that she did nothing about NAMA's workings.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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They are rotten. NAMA has behaved in a rotten manner.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is a serious allegation.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I know, and I would not make it lightly.

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Excellent public service.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The whole NAMA process requires serious independent scrutiny. I am sure the Tánaiste does not have the answer to my final question, but she might look for it for me. What role did NAMA's Ronnie Hanna, head of asset recovery, play in the sale and purchase of Project Eagle?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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You should not be naming people like that, Deputy. Are you concluding now?

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I am only asking for some information. We are not going to find it in this House or the committees. The Government will not get answers from NAMA; it will have to investigate it.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Without labouring the point, this House decided, in establishing the NAMA legislation, to have the strictest barriers between politicians' contact with NAMA, including office holders. The rules were stricter than those in place in any previous legislation of which I am aware. The record will show that I did not particularly care for the NAMA model, which was brought forward by Fianna Fáil. However, the former Minister for Finance, Brian Lenihan, set out a mechanism whereby politicians would not be involved in the works and doings of NAMA.

I refer to the mechanism we use in the Dáil. Deputy Wallace has made a series of allegations and I do not know their total significance in the scheme of things. He referenced a number of people, organisations and committees and actions by CAB. I am not in a position to give him any kind of judgment on those issues or the facts he put forward. I suggest that perhaps he first make that information known to the investigating authorities, in particular the police in the North, and the UK authorities, and perhaps, if relevant, to the American authorities which are making inquiries.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Is the Tánaiste interested in it?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Wallace might also be in a position to assist the Northern Ireland authorities. It is a matter of judgment for him as to whether he is prepared to do that.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes Leaders' Questions.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Is the Government interested?

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I have been to the Garda and the National Crime Agency. We need an independent inquiry here.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I suggest that Deputy Wallace think seriously about using the availability of the Committee of Public Accounts. To be perfectly honest, he is suggesting another commission of inquiry without having established the broad level of facts. If a commission of inquiry was announced tomorrow, how long will it take and where will the public debate and examination take place? Commissions of inquiry have become a political go-to that we need one to decide whether it rained in Dublin today or yesterday.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, United Left)
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Check the record. It was not even mentioned.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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A commission of inquiry would follow after the Committee of Public Accounts has had an opportunity to seriously examine the issues.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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We need the truth.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Are we afraid of the truth now?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Yes.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Simply reaching for that has become an automatic default response of the Opposition and, to be honest, it has not done the preliminary work. Deputy Wallace should offer his insights to the investigating authorities in the North and the UK.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. That concludes leaders questions. Shortly we will go on to the Order of Business. The bells have already rung for the Order of Business.