Dáil debates

Thursday, 16 July 2015

11:40 am

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste will be aware there has been a massive investment in the post office network for several years. I am sure she will acknowledge that this happened primarily during the lifetime of the previous Government. Yes, some of those running post offices took the decision when this upgrading was being carried out to take voluntary redundancy which resulted in closures.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Over 400 post offices were closed under the previous Government.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are 1,150 post offices across the country in which 3,700 people are employed. What is happening is up to the Government and its policies. Post offices play a vital part in communities and are a serious focal point for the elderly and families living in rural areas.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How is the Deputy’s local post office going?

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle, may I have the floor, please? I am raising a serious issue.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy has the floor.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Banks have closed in many smaller towns. Garda stations have also been closed and sold. Post offices have to be protected and enhanced. Department of Social Protection payments account for 30% of the business of the post office network. The spin-off value of people buying other items is as high as 50%. The contract for making social protection payments is worth €25 million per annum to post offices.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not; it is twice that amount.

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If Deputy Robert Troy cannot get his figures right, it is not surprising that Fianna Fáil broke the country.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste will have an opportunity to respond. Whether it is accepted by her, there is genuine concern among postmasters that their businesses will end up being closed, mainly due to the fact that the Department of Social Protection is issuing forms instructing people to change their method of collection to their bank accounts.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One will not be even be able to buy a stamp soon.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The concerns of postmasters have been independently verified in a report commissioned from Grant Thornton in 2014. The Tánaiste has taken many policy decisions which have irked particular groups across the country.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Many decisions.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Her decision, however, to send forms to people to select bank accounts in which to receive social protection payments threatens to lead to the closure of up to 400 post offices.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sabotage.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the 400 Fianna Fáil closed?

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Postmasters are simply asking for a level playing field, but they are not getting it. The Tánaiste is undermining the future and viability of post offices. Will she confirm that it is the Government’s intention to maintain the current network at 1,150 post offices? Will it invest the much needed funding to allow post offices to develop an electronic transaction account which will afford people the option of receiving and transacting social welfare payments in the post office, either electronically or by cash? Will she confirm that she will meet the Irish Postmasters Union as it has requested? Two months ago she said she would change the social welfare forms that requested social welfare recipients to change to bank accounts. Today the very same forms are on the Department’s website. Will she instruct her officials to take them down and ensure new forms are sent that will not recommend that people receive their social welfare payments electronically?

Photo of Dinny McGinleyDinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not think the Deputy had such neck.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am aware that quite a number of Deputies and their families have an interest in post offices. I hope any Member who has a direct commercial interest in a post office will actually let us know.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy has declared it already.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was declared in the register of Members’ interests and during the general election.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the Deputy also a postmaster?

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste should answer the question.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is disgraceful. She should answer the question.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am just asking in the interests of debate.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please, Deputies, this is Leaders’ Questions.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste is a disgrace.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I asked because I am aware that Deputy Robert Troy has a long-standing interest in post offices.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He has declared it in this House.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste is a disgrace.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am just asking if there is a commercial interest.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please stop, as we cannot hear the reply.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When Fianna Fáil was in government, it closed 197 post offices.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tell the truth.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In fairness, Deputy Robert Troy said many were voluntary decisions made by postmasters because, for instance, a family member was retiring and no one else wanted to take on the job. Of the 25 closures during the Government’s tenure, almost all have been for that exact reason. Like other Deputies, I, too, was involved in my constituency in efforts to recruit a new postmaster or postmistress when one retired. That is a familiar story in the post office system, of which all Members will be aware. It might have escaped Deputy Robert Troy’s attention that the contract for services with the Department of Social Protection is worth €50 million per annum. He suggested it was only worth half of that amount.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste is trying to undermine them - sabotage.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The figure is €50 million and it is higher when other departmental services supplied through the post office network are taken into account. To suggest it is half that figure is pretty poor counting by somebody involved in the post office network. That is why I asked Deputy Robert Troy if he had a personal awareness and familiarity with the post office system. I would have expected him not just to have a researcher’s brief but also some personal knowledge. Post offices play an important role in urban and rural communities.

They provide important services, particularly for people who do not actually have a formal bank account. It is not just past Fianna Fáil taoisigh who do not have a formal bank account. It is actually quite a lot of other people in this country.

11:50 am

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My goodness.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Up to 200,000 people in this country do not have a formal bank account.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Wonder Woman is back today.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Leave Bertie out of it.

Photo of Ray ButlerRay Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Listen.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Wonder Woman is back.

Photo of Noel CoonanNoel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Stop breaking the peace. Be quiet.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let me say as Minister for Social Protection that, in that context, the Department of Social Protection relies on the post office system to make payments to the people who do not have bank accounts, and we will continue to rely on it.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste is telling them all to take their money away.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We also require the post office to be available for people-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste is undermining post offices.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to collect their social welfare jobseeker's payments through the post office and turn up in person to collect them. It is for that reason that the post office has a very large and very valuable contract with the Department of Social Protection, worth more than €50 million. Fianna Fáil seems unable to count because it is suggesting that it is worth less than half of that. So let us get our facts right.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government is not able to count regarding Irish Water.

Photo of John BrowneJohn Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the form?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are the first few facts-----

Photo of John BrowneJohn Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about Deputy Troy's question?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----that I would like to give to Deputy Troy.

Photo of Noel CoonanNoel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Troy can ask a supplementary question. He has one minute.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It ill behoves the Tánaiste to try to take cheap shots at me.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a matter of fact that I have a post office in my constituency.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I declared it on the list of Members' interests. I have declared it umpteen times on the floor of this House.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I was just questioning why the Deputy's facts were so wrong.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. What the Tánaiste is trying to do is make it personal.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Photo of Noel CoonanNoel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When you are explaining, you are losing.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Post office staff are listening to this debate.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste made it personal for lone parents.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those staff want answers. I want answers on behalf of the 3,700 people employed in the post office network across the country.

Photo of Brendan SmithBrendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Not cheap shots.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have asked a number of questions this morning, but the Tánaiste has not answered one.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Correct.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In her typical style-----

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy was factually incorrect with his questions.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----she has come in and tried to talk the topic down.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is supposed to be a supplementary question.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It does not do her justice that she does not answer the questions.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The minute is up.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are asking questions on behalf of the people whom we represent.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are representatives to Dáil Éireann.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will ask the questions again. Will the Government commit to maintaining the current network of 1,150 post offices?

Photo of John BrowneJohn Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A simple question.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a simple "Yes" or "No" question. Will the Tánaiste commit to meeting the Irish Postmasters Union-----

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is too bad Fianna Fáil closed them all.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to work through its six-point plan-----

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about lone parents?

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fianna Fáil is the crowd that closed all of the post offices.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to save the post office network, yes or no?

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the lone parents?

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about lone parents?

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Withdraw the letters.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Tánaiste-----

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry, but will Deputies please lower the noise level?

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Stagg is having a go.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Government commit to investing in the development of the post office-based electronic transaction account, yes or no?

Photo of John BrowneJohn Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the form?

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Finally, will the Tánaiste honour her commitment of two months ago when she said that the forms would be taken down and replaced? That has not happened. As of this morning, the old forms are still on the Department's website. I am aware of this because I am a postmaster and sent back to the Tánaiste and her Department the old forms that every post office across the length and breadth of this country still had.

Photo of Emmet StaggEmmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Special delivery.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those forms request, direct and recommend that people change from having their payments made through post offices to through banks. Will the Tánaiste live up to her commitment and ensure that those promises are maintained?

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste to reply.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am happy to say that-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Answer the questions today.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please, Deputy.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----my Department provides over €50 million worth of business to the post office system in Ireland.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We heard that already. Answer the question.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are more than 1,100 post offices.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is its largest single customer.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry, Deputies.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Answer the questions.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Normally, when entities have a significant and important customer-----

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste is not going to answer the questions, as usual.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----I expect the people who are being paid-----

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not just on the "Late Late Show" that she does not answer questions. It is in here as well.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----for the service to give a good service to the people who use the post offices. That is what the people who use the post offices want. The biggest problem is the fact that so few people who use post offices have a full bank account. The purpose of the recent report by Mr. Bobby Kerr and the recent examination under the auspices of the Minister of State for rural affairs was, in fact, to find a pathway that would provide an efficient and a profitable service, both for the customers and for the people-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste will be getting her pathway in the next few days.

Photo of Charlie McConalogueCharlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the forms?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----who run and who work in the post offices.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

She will get a P45.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You must be getting all of the shouts out today because you are worried that you will miss them for the next few weeks,-----

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the forms? Come on.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies, please stop.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Tánaiste answer the questions that I asked her, please?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----so give it a rest.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will shout any day and give you a piece of my mind. That will be your pathway.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies, stop.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Your pathway is the P45 pathway.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We know you.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Go get ready.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We know you.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Calm down.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In relation to-----

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste might answer the questions that were asked of her.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies, please.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Calm down, Mattie.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste to conclude. Quiet, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Regarding the standard bank account,-----

Photo of Noel CoonanNoel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did you use the post office to pay the court fines, Mattie?

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What did you say?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----we have put forward detailed-----

Photo of Noel CoonanNoel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did you use the post office to pay the courts?

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You do not have a clue.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please, Deputies.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

------proposals to the Minister for Finance. So has the Kerr report.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The answer must be "No", then.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I broadly support the recommendations made in the Kerr report.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Government make the investment, yes or no?

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No answer.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think they make a lot of sense.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Pathway.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Troy spoke a few moments ago as a postmaster. Maybe he will tell us what the postmasters are going to bring to the table,-----

Hear, hear.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They have-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----seeing as how he is standing-----

Photo of John BrowneJohn Browne (Wexford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the form being withdrawn?

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am asking the Tánaiste to meet them.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----here speaking on behalf of them.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Tánaiste meet them?

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Quiet, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So, in relation to-----

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will meet them with the Tánaiste.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----the forms, this is another issue-----

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Tánaiste meet them, yes or no?

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please, Deputy.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Tánaiste meet them, yes or no?

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry, but the Tánaiste has the floor.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----that the Deputy is extremely familiar with, which is, all of the forms that relate to social welfare payments are designed and redesigned with a couple of objectives in mind, which is why they take quite a time to design and redesign.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Take a long time?

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Paid consultants.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One is to prevent fraud and the other is to ensure accuracy and simplicity in so far as a long form for a pension application-----

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would be very simple.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----can be made as simple as possible.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It did not take the Labour Party too long to take defected members down from its website, so-----

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is actually being done at the moment.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----why will the Tánaiste not take the form down from the Department's website?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As a postmaster, Deputy Troy seems to be taking an attitude whereby he does not want people who have bank accounts to actually-----

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, he wants choice.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----be able to use their bank account.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He wants fair choice.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He wants them, because he is a business owner in a post office,-----

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want choice.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

------to only be allowed to queue up at the post office.

Photo of Charlie McConalogueCharlie McConalogue (Donegal North East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste told them to go to the banks.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not right, Deputy Troy.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste is not playing-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Stop making a cause for the banks.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One actually has to provide a bank account system that the post offices can use.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Tánaiste meet them?

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As a postmaster, Deputy Troy will have to co-operate with that.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you. I now call Deputy McDonald.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the Tánaiste going to meet them?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As a postmaster, Deputy Troy is going to have to co-operate.

Photo of Niall CollinsNiall Collins (Limerick, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

She is a complete bluffer. She never answers a question.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Order.

Photo of Kevin HumphreysKevin Humphreys (Dublin South East, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is Deputy Mattie McGrath going to be a Fianna Fáil candidate?

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Order, please.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One cannot even buy a stamp these days.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please, Deputy McDonald has the floor.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yesterday, Irish Water was forced to admit that fewer than half of householders were paying the Government's water tax. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly, the Tánaiste's deputy leader,-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Who wants to be leader.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----has insisted that the €30.5 million collected to date of a projected income of €66.8 million was "a good start". I do not know what planet the Minister is living on, but his delusional response to the overwhelming rejection of water charges further discredits the Government. We learned today that, with the failure of the Government's intimidation and threats, Irish Water has proposed a campaign of direct harassment of struggling families. It proposes to bombard thousands of households-----

Photo of Aodhán Ó RíordáinAodhán Ó Ríordáin (Dublin North Central, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sinn Féin would know about that.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----by telephone in a desperate, last ditch attempt-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to get them to sign up to water charges. This move is pathetic.

I raised with the Taoiseach yesterday all of these issues. How does Irish Water expect to attract investment with such a derisory level of compliance with the Government's charge? According to one economist, at least 80% of householders would need to pay if the company were to borrow at competitive rates. That is not going to happen. The Government's water tax has been roundly and comprehensively rejected. The Tánaiste has heard what people are saying. Now, it is time to act. Abolish the charges. Abolish Irish Water.

This morning in Dublin Castle, the Tánaiste claimed, mar dhea, that she wanted to listen to people's views regarding the direction of economic policy. I do not know if that was some sort of joke, but if it was, no one is laughing. Clearly, she has no intention of listening to anyone outside the Government about its discredited and shambolic water policy. The people have spoken loudly, repeatedly and clearly. They have flatly rejected its water tax.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did Deputy McDonald pay?

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government's figures for the Irish Water quango do not add up. It is time that she face this reality. The water tax is finished. Will the Tánaiste and the Labour Party heed this message?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When I spoke this morning in Dublin Castle to a very wide group of people from the trade union movement, from the business movement and from the voluntary and advocacy organisations in Ireland, big and small, I talked about a future that we would all put together for Ireland that would give us a good outlook for people who were older and retired, for younger people and for families with children.

The feedback was very strong and it is a vision people in Ireland wanted, with everyone back at work-----

12:00 pm

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On slave wages.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----the country investing in schools and hospitals and a water system that produces safe clean water. I cannot understand why Sinn Féin's policy is to bankrupt Irish Water and to potentially seek to bankrupt the Irish State, as it advocated some six or seven years ago when it wanted this country to default and do what some countries have, unfortunately, experienced in recent times. If we are to fulfil the vision of this morning in Dublin Castle, of getting our people back to work and building infrastructure, clean water is critical to that. Whether Sinn Féin likes it or not we have taken the water supply away from over 30 councils-----

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To privatise it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----who all dealt with it in a different way and we have brought it together into a national utility, like the ESB or Bord Gáis, identifying leaks and lead pipes, issues which county councils around the country had sat on for years and not addressed. We have already begun to bring to an end to the scandal of boil water notices in County Roscommon, which is an enormous achievement that was not achievable by a local authority on its own.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the Government had given €500 million to local authorities they would have done it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We want to build a tourism industry, to attract foreign direct investment and build local Irish businesses. Above all, we want our farmers and our agriculture industry to prosper and we need good clean water for all those things, as well as for ourselves, our children and our grandchildren. Sinn Féin's vision is to pretend that instead of a functioning utility, we can load €800 million onto income tax and taxes on workers this year.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government is both subsidising and charging and it is still not fixing the leaks.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What we are proposing in the budget is to give workers tax relief, particularly in terms of the USC, and to have a separate system for paying for water at a very moderate rate of €60 net for a single person household and €160 for two adults or more. This has been an extremely difficult debate and I acknowledge that there are people vehemently opposed to the development of Irish Water but there are many people who have paid the charges. I congratulate the hundreds of thousands of families, individuals and households who have done so.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government bullied them into paying.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government intimidated them.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The billing cycle started relatively recently and I am very confident that people will pay for clean, reliable drinking water that serves their needs from industry to hospital to private home.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am struck by the extent to which the Tánaiste has morphed into a Fine Gael mouthpiece. There is not a sliver of difference between her answer-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

At least I am not the mouthpiece of Deputy Adams.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste is admitting, then, that she is the mouthpiece of Fine Gael.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Labour Party, led by the Tánaiste, which came to office on a platform of opposition to water charges for some very obvious reasons, not least that people had suffered so much by way of cutbacks and were struggling to get by, now staunchly defends the indefensible. The Labour Party and the Tánaiste stand shoulder to shoulder with the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny and tells people they really do not care what their view is, what their struggles are or what their difficulties are - they are going to stick with this unfair charge in any event. The financing model for this utility is now utterly undermined but the Tánaiste is in cloud cuckoo land on that score as well.

The subvention for Irish Water on the State balance sheet in 2015 is €810 million. Fewer than 50% of households have paid up and if the Tánaiste thinks that is going to improve she is wrong as it is not going to happen. Many people will not pay as a matter of principle, as they pay already and oppose moves towards privatisation, but a huge number of people simply cannot pay. This is not about whether or not Sinn Féin likes it, as the Tánaiste would have it. This opposition is beyond any political party or anything we have seen in recent times in this State.

Photo of Noel CoonanNoel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sinn Féin is like Syriza.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

New Democracy is the Fine Gael crowd in Greece.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste should listen to the people as she has promised to do and scrap this scheme. It is not working for the people or for the State's balance sheet. Would the Tánaiste prefer to blindly follow where Deputy Enda Kenny and his Blueshirt colleagues lead her, and insist on a policy that is clearly failing? She disregards lone parents, pickpockets them and leaves them struggling. She then delivers a homily in which she says it is only €3 per week but that does not add up for people who have to run their households. She is persisting with this even though she knows the damage it will do to individuals and families.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the forthcoming budget the Government will have room for spending of between €1.2 billion and €1.5 billion. Given where the country has come from, the improvements in both last year's and next year's budget offer us an opportunity to assist everybody in this country.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did the Government assist lone parents?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

More important, it will help us get more people back to work because the key to economic recovery is to get people back to work, either in jobs or in self-employment. There are some 4,000 involved in working directly or indirectly in the area of water services. Sinn Féin's proposal for water services is to throw those people out of a job and to bankrupt the provision of proper water services in this country.

Photo of Brian StanleyBrian Stanley (Laois-Offaly, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Rubbish. This is Alice in Wonderland economics.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the forthcoming budget the important thing is to see a shift in favour of people at work or in self-employment with low or middle incomes and to use that for the economic growth that everybody in this country has worked so hard to create. The people have worked so hard to get the country out of the economic difficulties they have borne. We want a recovery dividend and an easing in income taxes on labour so that people, especially families with children, can work and have a lower burden.

We also want a well-structured service sector that provides for absolute essentials. I note that Deputy McDonald did not disagree with me that a good quality water service is essential in a modern economy, as is a good quality sewerage service. Deputy McDonald did not say this could be provided for nothing or magicked out of thin air.

We have a strategy in the Labour Party.

12:10 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am suggesting that the Government should stop screwing struggling families. That is my proposition to the Tánaiste.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have a strategy in the forthcoming budget to put money back in the pockets of workers while building quality services.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about parents who work less than 19 hours?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sinn Féin does not even seem to have an economic policy.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It does not have a water policy and it does not have a policy which will put money in workers' pockets and help them go back to work.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The only policies the Tánaiste has are Fine Gael policies.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What does Sinn Féin want? It seems only to care about soundbites.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government certainly is no friend of the Greeks. It never even tried to help them.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sinn Féin has nothing of substance to say in this debate or any other debate.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Fine Gael Deputies are smiling over there. Their policies were implemented. It is only the Fine Gaelers who are smiling.

Photo of Paul ConnaughtonPaul Connaughton (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is summertime.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Order for Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice, please.

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Over the past seven years, the people have struggled in many ways to come through the recession. Throughout Ireland, people struggle with mortgages. They are raising families in difficult situations. I saw a report which states grocery prices have gone up approximately 70%. People are struggling to send their kids to college. We have property tax. Elderly people will get 45 minutes of home help to get out of bed. County councils cannot take on new employees even though the number of employees they have has been decimated. We all know the state of the health service. Each one of us in this Dáil gets calls every day about the distress families are suffering. The Tánaiste told us earlier to look at where we have come from. She is right. Look at it. The kick in the teeth to the people is to be found in the reports in the media telling us that top politicians and former taoisigh will now get a couple of grand extra. They will end up with €136,000 to look out the window at home and smile at Ireland. Former Ministers will be looked after. Just imagine it. The rise they will get in their pensions equates to extra home care for three people. Some of them, including the Tánaiste, have said they will not accept it, which I acknowledge. However, that is not the way to go forward. Some of these people will give the State the two fingers. They will run for the hills with the money in their pockets. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, has been asked about this situation. What did he do? He put his hands in the air and asked what could he do.

When crises hit this country, the Government was prepared to bring in emergency legislation. We are legislators. We are here to solve the problems of the country. We cannot have a family home being repossessed. We cannot have banks closing in on families throughout the country and at the same time give €2,000 to the fat cats. I am not long a Member of the Dáil but I will ask the Tánaiste one thing. Will she answer me straight? I do not need an epitaph. I want straight answers. Does she agree with those increases in pensions? Will her Government legislate to stop this immediately? When will she bring in that legislation?

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The answer is never.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy. First of all, in relation to the issue of local authorities hiring staff-----

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We do not want to know about them.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Answer the question.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Answer the question.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----I am sure the Deputy is aware that his own county council in Galway, along with all the other county councils, have been sanctioned to hire more than 300 additional staff.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have not got one in Tipperary. Not one.

Photo of Ann PhelanAnn Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy McGrath needs to speak to his county manager.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is up to the county manager to apply. Some 300 additional staff have been sanctioned to provide for the planning, building and development of new homes and houses in all counties throughout Ireland-----

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Answer the question.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----as part of the Government's €3.5 billion investment in housing in this country. In case Deputy Fitzmaurice is not aware of the fact-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Answer the question.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----I know from visiting Galway that Galway County Council has taken on more staff. Those extra staff are in addition to the 1,800 or so additional teachers and the 600 additional special needs assistants who have been taken on throughout the country. The Deputy's suggestion that a recovery dividend is not being paid in terms of additional staff is wrong. While it is a few counties away from him, Deputy Fitzmaurice will probably know that Templemore, which was shuttered by the previous Government, is now home at any one time to 500 or 600 gardaí in training.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What has this got to do with the question he asked about the pensions? This is unreal. A specific question was asked but we cannot get an answer.

Photo of Peter MathewsPeter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have had enough. I am going to leave.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Peter has had enough.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Peter could not take it any more. Even Peter walked out.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the Lansdowne Road agreement and the emergency financial measures in the FEMPI legislation, the advice to the Minister, Deputy Howlin, has been that the FEMPI measures should be unwound as the Lansdowne Road deal comes to an end.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government can cut the lone parents payment but it cannot cut payments to the fat cats.

Photo of John DeasyJohn Deasy (Waterford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Take it easy, Mattie.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will not take it easy. It is a fact.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As the House will be aware, a new deal is currently being negotiated and finalised with the trade unions. People on pensions in excess of €100,000 have rightly taken a pension deduction of 20% in the special levy on high level pensions. There is a significant deduction in existence at the moment, in respect of FEMPI, imposed on people who have very high pensions at more than €100,000.

Deputy Fitzmaurice referenced my personal view. If the Taoiseach of this country earns less than €200,000 and therefore might be in line for a pension of somewhat less than half of that, and the Taoiseach now earns significantly less than €200,000, I do not see why anyone in this country-----

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One Minister living in America for the past five years is still getting his pension. He is not even living in Ireland.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----who was paid out of public funds should earn a pension in excess of €100,000.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the Tánaiste going to do about it?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

However, the principal people in receipt of these sums are medical consultants who are very highly paid following a move initiated by the previous Government.

Photo of Róisín ShortallRóisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It has been endorsed by this Government.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have said it publicly and I will say it again. We have been legally advised that now that the financial emergency is over, thankfully, the FEMPI legislation should be unwound in line with the restoration of, in particular, low-paid public servants' pay in respect of the cuts they took in terms of both actual cuts to their wages and additional levies in relation to pensions.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we see that advice?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The same applied to low earning retired civil servants on pensions. I have made a suggestion-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Cut the lone parent's payment.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to the people involved who are fortunate enough. Some of these former Ministers and taoisigh earn more than serving Ministers and taoisigh or almost as much nowadays.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Which is why they do not need it.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As I said, one is living in America. He is not even living in Ireland. Martin Cullen is living in America. He has been living there five years.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think they should have the decency to offer-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Legislate.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to refund that pension increase to the State.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They should not get it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They should do it on a voluntary basis and they should acknowledge the strong level of pension they receive.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They can claim it after a year or two. It will come back to them.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not see why they would need it. It would be an honourable gesture-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Like burning the bondholders.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to the State they served.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Tánaiste is asking them to give it back but will not take it off them.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The State now contributes significantly to their pensions and comfort in retirement. They should refrain from accepting it.

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not long in the Dáil but after listening to that waffle a person would lose the will to be here. The same ding-dong goes on every day. I look around me and no one answers a question straight. The fact is those politicians who are gone have given the two fingers to the State. We need to do something as legislators to stop what is going on. Go out on the ground and listen to the people. This is a problem with many politicians. The Government should listen to its backbenchers. In fairness to the backbenchers of all parties and none, behind the scenes they will say what is going on is a disgrace.

Why does the Tánaiste not listen to the people on the ground who have made the sacrifices in the past six or seven years? Why does she not show an example as a leader or a deputy leader of a country, show the people and give them the hope they need? They need to know there is some someone at the top who will show the light, show the way and not keep with the same ding-dong with the fat cats of this country.

The Tánaiste should go around Ireland to the small and medium-sized businesses. She has talked about where we are now. We are €208 billion in debt. We are not out of the woods. The Tánaiste should go into every small town in this country. Small and medium-sized businesses are struggling and on their knees. They are keeping the door open and the light lit but I can tell the Tánaiste they will not have a holiday.

These people who have absconded and gone include ex-taoisigh and ex-ministers. Some of them are living outside the State. They do not give a damn. They are not worried about small business. The small businesses are what will bring Ireland back and make an Ireland of the future, not these people who have headed for the hills.

I do not accept that we could ask someone if they might give it back to us. That day is gone. As legislators, we need to sit down. Whatever the way, legally it can be done.

12:20 pm

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of course it can.

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If we say it cannot be done, then we are giving up as a country.

I am appealing to the Tánaiste. Altogether, I think there would be support right around the House. We could work together and make sure this will not go on. There are senior civil servants who have retired on massive pensions as well. This cannot go on, when we see people struggling on €20,000, €30,000 and €40,000. They cannot send their children to college. They are the people who have pulled Ireland out of the coals, out of the fire. I appeal to the Tánaiste to reconsider what she is doing. We would work with the Government. I believe everyone in the House is disgusted with what has been said. I put it to the Tánaiste that legislation has to come in: if we need to come in during the holidays, let us do it. Let us go forward, show example and let the people see that there is some decency in politicians before they given up on us once and for all.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When this Government came into office the first thing we did was abolish a series of privileges which applied to politicians, in particular, to officeholders who served in government. We abolished all of the transition payments relating to retiring Ministers. Not only that, but Ministers and others who would serve henceforth received and took significant cuts in their salaries and in their future pension entitlements. In fact, for ordinary Deputies the future pension entitlements of those who came to serve recently apply from the age of 65 years. By the way, at the time, I did not see the Independent Members offering the €41,000 allowance that each of them get on a tax-free basis.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes we did.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is €40,000 a year.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not see them offering that.

Photo of Catherine MurphyCatherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government parties get it as well.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not see them offering that.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They get €200,000 over five years.

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government parties get millions.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They get €200,000 over five years.

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Government Members get €25 million.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Excuse me, can we have order, please?

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They get it free into their pockets.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They get €200,000.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we have order, please?

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will they give it back? Will they give back the €40,000?

(Interruptions).

Photo of Stephen DonnellyStephen Donnelly (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will swap Deputy Kehoe my €40,000 for his €25 million.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have called the Tánaiste, please.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Perhaps Deputy Fitzmaurice might lead by example. Perhaps he does not take that particular payment.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Perhaps Deputy Fitzmaurice would lead or, in terms of his fellow Independent Deputies, address-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry. This is Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice's question. Can we have order, please? Deputy Donnelly, please.

(Interruptions).

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the Tánaiste going to do about it? The former Minister is off living in America. What is the Tánaiste going to do about the former Minister living in America who brought this country to its knees? He is laughing at this State in America.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, please.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have asked the Tánaiste to reply.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Halligan, this is Deputy Fitzmaurice's question, please. Deputy Fitzmaurice asked the question.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Fitzmaurice-----

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He is on a golf course in America with a huge pension after wrecking this country. The pension is being sent out to America to him.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Halligan, I do not know what you are talking about. I am going to have to suspend the House if we cannot have Deputy Fitzmaurice's question addressed.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Fitzmaurice said that he would support moves that "can legally be done" - that was the phrase he used. In that, his has used a very wise phrase, one with which I concur. This is because it is the same constitutional advice as has been given to the Government.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we see it?

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can we see the advice?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is related to the financial emergency measures. The financial emergency period, thankfully, is over and is beginning to recede.

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are €208 billion in debt.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is because of the sacrifices the people in Ireland have made. The legal advice to us, whether Deputies like it, is relevant. Deputy Fitzmaurice talked about what can be legally done. I accept the spirit in which he is making his proposal. However, he asked that we could see what can legally be done.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tax them.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will certainly take it up again with the Attorney General. However, a range of legal advice suggests that a pension right is a particular right people have. It was reduced in the emergency for people on over €100,000 by 20% and upwards. It was reduced even more by this Government when we came into office for current and future officeholders and Members. That was agreed and it was legally okay.

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why not leave it reduced?

(Interruptions).

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

This is Leaders' Questions, please.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

At the moment according to the legal advice that is available to us, the recourse is that the people involved, whether they are in America sunning themselves, as Deputy Halligan has suggested-----

Photo of John HalliganJohn Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are in America. He is in America.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Then, it behoves them and perhaps their former party members in the House - I am referring to the former party of government - to advise them that in the public interest they should actually not take what would be, in effect, some reduction in the level of reduction they are currently taking.

Photo of Michael KittMichael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That concludes Leaders' Questions. I hope Deputy Fitzmaurice heard all that was said there; I could not.