Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the Humanist Association of Ireland; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6609/15]

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with Atheist Ireland; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6610/15]

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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7. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with representatives of the Jewish faith and the Islamic community; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [6611/15]

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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8. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with Atheist Ireland; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9978/15]

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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9. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with Atheist Ireland. [12748/15]

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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10. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with Atheist Ireland and their discussions on a blasphemy referendum; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15221/15]

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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11. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meetings with leaders of faith communities; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [15222/15]

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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12. To ask the Taoiseach if he has met religious leaders since the referendum campaign on marriage equality began; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [19224/15]

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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13. To ask the Taoiseach if he has met any of the faith communities since the "Yes" vote in the marriage equality referendum; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [22945/15]

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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14. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the last meeting he had with Atheist Ireland. [25818/15]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 5 to 14, inclusive, together.

As with public representatives generally, I often meet church and other religious or non-religious leaders on an informal basis in the course of attending official or public events. Most recently, I met Archbishop Diarmuid Martin and Archbishop Michael Jackson when I officially opened a new campus development at St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra. In addition, I meet representatives of religious and other philosophical bodies through a formal structured dialogue process, which provides a channel for consultation and communication between the State and such bodies on matters of mutual concern. These meetings take place at both ministerial and official levels, and meetings may be sought by either side on the basis of a proposed agenda, agreed in advance of the meeting. The arrangements for such meetings are made by my Department. This process does not, of course, displace arrangements for the conduct of policy and administration by Departments and agencies in their functional responsibilities.

Since I last reported to the House, I met representatives of the Humanist Association of Ireland on 29 January 2015, and representatives from Atheist Ireland on 10 February 2015. At both meetings discussions covered a wide range of topics of mutual interest. The discussion with Atheist Ireland focused on the philosophy and aims of the organisation, a secular constitution, laws and practices, matters concerning the education system, and the constitutional and human rights of atheists in Ireland. At the meeting with the Humanist Association of Ireland the matters discussed were education issues, hospital chaplaincy, religious declarations under the Constitution and the census.

With regard to the holding of a referendum on blasphemy, I pointed out that the Government had decided to put two referendums before the people in May 2015 and that a referendum on blasphemy would not be held in the lifetime of the current Government.

I met representatives from the Islamic community on 4 June 2015 and representatives from the Jewish community on 16 June 2015. Discussions with the Islamic community focused on blasphemy, an Islamic Sharia council, forced marriages, the wearing of the hijab and community and cultural aspects. Discussion with the Jewish community focused on Jewish life in Ireland, access to education, religious practices and rites, and anti-Semitism.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. He outlined a series of meetings he had with the Humanist Association of Ireland, Atheist Ireland and the Catholic Church and Church of Ireland. Let me move quickly to the issue concerning our schools, and school patronage in particular. The Taoiseach will recall that in the early days of Deputy Ruairí Quinn's time as Minister for Education and Skills, he said he wanted 50% of schools to change patronage or to change to other models during the lifetime of the Government. I remember questioning the Taoiseach at the time and he deferred to the Minister. There are approximately 3,000 primary schools. If 50% were to change status, it would have involved approximately 1,500 schools. Out of the more than 1,500 primary schools that were supposed to have been involved, exactly five changed status and another four are to change status in September. If ever there was a case of spin trumping substance, this is one. The Taoiseach must accept that.

The former Minister, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, said many things in this day but we all remember the famous comment about signing on the steps of Trinity College the dotted line of an agreement that there would be no increase in third level fees. Within months, he was increasing them. That happened so I do not know why the Minister for Foreign Affairs is shaking his head. He cannot make these things go away. There are photographs and so on. It is a bit like the statement that the VAT never increased. It appears we all only imagined that it actually increased. It actually never did according to the Taoiseach. I thank the Taoiseach for convincing me of the fact that we never had an increase in VAT. Likewise, on this issue, much time was wasted and many fears were stoked up. Very little actually happened in this area. I would like the Taoiseach to comment on that.

With regard to the Taoiseach's meeting with the Islamic religious leaders, one of the issues that arises is that many Muslims are very concerned about what is happening. After the Paris attacks, the German demonstrations, and so forth, a debate on Islam has been taking place in Europe. It is completely unacceptable to try to blame Muslims in general for the actions of a tiny extremist minority, yet certain movements are trying to do that. Did the Taoiseach discuss this with the leaders of the Muslim church in Ireland? Does he agree that we need to ensure we stand united against attempts to blame an entire religion or group for the action of extremists?

As we said earlier, given the murders in Tunisia and elsewhere, we need to increase vigilance against extremist violence. In the Taoiseach's discussions with the leaders, did he touch on those subjects and how we can prevent a fundamentalist minority entrenching itself and developing here? How can we guard against intolerance and the emergence of generally extreme manifestations of religions, particularly Islam?

Can the Taoiseach outline why he decided not to proceed with the blasphemy referendum? I never heard a proper explanation as to why he decided not to proceed with it. Most people were nonplussed or could not understand why we were having a referendum on the age at which one could become President. No one saw that as a pressing, urgent matter of public interest. The blasphemy referendum proposal had substance to it. Why did the Taoiseach not proceed with it, especially because he was going forward with two referenda, one on marriage equality and the other on the age of the President? One could argue that a blasphemy referendum or, alternatively, a referendum on the nomination process concerning how one becomes President were more pressing. On blasphemy, commitments had been given. I would like an explanation as to why the Taoiseach did not proceed with that referendum.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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A former Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Mr. Dermot Ahern, blocked it in the early stages.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government made a commitment and the Constitutional Convention was in favour of one. We were told there would be one but the Government did not proceed with it. I just want to find out why.

Charles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Opportunism on the Deputy's part.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We are four years into the term of the current Government and I am entitled to ask the Taoiseach why the Government did not proceed with the blasphemy referendum. Was it dissuaded from doing so by others?

Did the Atheist Association, on which I have a question, raise the issue of the Angelus? It made very strong representations to RTE. I believe it is overdoing it in this regard. One cannot just excise out of existence Christian beliefs and the need for reflection. I would have believed that what now stands for the Angelus, the moment of reflection before the "Six One News", is not exactly injurious or offensive to anyone. One runs the risk of becoming offensive and intolerant of the various manifestations of spirituality and religion in the country. There is a need for balance in the public debate. I would accept the bona fides expressed in the debate on the more substantive issues but when the debate focuses on such micro elements, it offends many people.

On the fundamental issue of school patronage, resources comprise the key issue in primary schools today.

Sometimes this does not get said enough. I visit many primary schools - Educate Together, Catholic and Church of Ireland schools. It needs to be said that there are people of many faiths and none on the campuses of denominational schools which cater for them in a very harmonious and effective way. There are many different nationalities and people of different religions and none in many of our primary schools who get along fine. We need to acknowledge that in terms of the development of primary and secondary school settings. Critical mass is important. We are now constructing three or four schools in very close proximity to each other and that also needs to be thought through as well in terms of the proper use of resources, a bit of common sense and an understanding of where various people are coming from. Resources at primary level are a major issue in terms of the capitation grant, pupil-teacher ratio and a range of other supports that have been taken from primary schools in recent times. Many teachers and principals are fed up with the phoney debate on patronage entered into by the previous Minister for Education and Skills. It is a load of bluster and spin with no substance behind it yet it distracts from core issues facing teachers.

The Taoiseach met with the Jewish congregation. My understanding is that it also feels targeted and vulnerable in respect of what is happening globally. We need to pay particular attention to its faith and schools attended by significant numbers of the Jewish congregation and acknowledge and address the community's vulnerability.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin raised a number of important issues. In respect of the decision to hold the referenda on presidential age and marriage equality, I originally thought that it might be possible to hold five or six referenda on the same day. I learned from the first occasion where two referenda were held on the same day that it is not that simple. People inevitably say "I don't know enough about this. I'm confused by all the explanations that are out there. Therefore, I might vote or I might not vote." In hindsight, it was overly enthusiastic to consider holding half a dozen referenda on the same day called Constitution Day. For that reason, we made a choice. The Convention on the Constitution said that we should have referendums in certain areas. We dealt with six referenda during the lifetime of this Government on Oireachtas committees; judges' remuneration; the Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union; children's rights; the abolition of the Seanad, the setting up of the Court of Appeal; and the two most recent referenda. I think more referenda have been held in the lifetime of this Government than in the lifetime of any other Government.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Why not the one on blasphemy?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The one on blasphemy was considered along with a number of others. It was a choice. It could have been the one on blasphemy. As the Deputy said, there is a deal of substance in this. It might have added greatly to confusion and all the interest that was found in the referendum on marriage equality. It might be right or it might be wrong. We held two referenda, one of which was accepted and the other not accepted. Obviously, blasphemy is one for the next Government to consider.

I met with the Archbishop of Dublin, Diarmuid Martin, a couple of years back. He was the first person to mention the question of patronage and the fact that the Catholic Church had so many schools that it wished to divest itself of a number of them. He said that it would be more than appropriate for the Catholic Church to have schools that reflected its ethos. The former Minister for Education and Skills recognises that a 50% transfer to other patrons will never be achieved within the period in question.

Rural schools are of great interest to an enormous number of people. There has been a growth in the population in city areas and a corresponding reduction with smaller families, planning permission problems and a drop in the population in any event. The Government made two changes recently. Small schools form a critical part of the social infrastructure of rural Ireland, particularly isolated communities. In recognition of that and in order to support the sustainability of small school communities, the Government decided that there should be a development of a voluntary protocol for amalgamation of the smallest schools that are close to each other with other schools of similar patronage and language of instruction. It was to be completely voluntary. The other policy consists of an improvement of the staffing schedule for the smallest schools. It was becoming an issue in quite a number of locations around the country.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Government cut it the previous year.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Many of the minority schools at primary level are small and isolated schools. The Minister announced some improvements to the staffing schedule for small schools for the 2015-16 school year in February. They are improved retention thresholds for second, third and fourth-class teachers and the improved appointment and retention thresholds for isolated one-teacher schools, which are a source of considerable pressure from a number of communities. Those improvements recognise the challenges faced by very small schools that are more than 8 km from the nearest school of the same type. That package of measures will provide rural communities, including those representing minority religions, with security about the future of their small schools, for which they are very grateful, recognising the essential social function small schools can play, particularly in isolated communities.

Deputy Martin mentioned a number of groups with which I met. I met with the Islamic community. We discussed the question of the law on blasphemy. It referred to the great value placed on religion in Ireland and indicated the Islamic community's support for the protection afforded in Article 46.1 of the Constitution which provides for the offence of blasphemy. I noted that the recommendation by the Convention on the Constitution that the offence of blasphemy be removed from the Constitution had been accepted by the Government. It had already been decided that this referendum would not be held during the lifetime of this Government but if the people return the current Government to power after the next election, the referendum will go ahead or whatever Government is returned can make its own mind up on that. If the question goes to a referendum, it will then be a matter for the people.

We also discussed the question of establishing a sharia council. By that, the Islamic community meant a council that would deal with issues of family law and domestic challenges. It said it would benefit the community as it would save time and money for those who submit to its rulings instead of taking grievances to court. An official council could provide clarity as to which imam to attend for guidance. There are imams in different locations around the country. I pointed out that the Islamic community did not need the State's blessing to establish a sharia council. Freedom of religion provided for in the Constitution would permit its establishment. This does not negate the fact that the laws of the State apply to all its citizens. I drew a parallel with divorce and the Catholic Church whereby divorce is recognised by the laws of the State but not by the laws of the Church and this was a rule Catholics could choose to adhere to. We discussed forced marriages, the wearing of the hijab and community and cultural aspects relating to the Islamic community.

Deputy Martin also mentioned Atheist Ireland. It discussed a secular Constitution, laws and practices, a secular education system, the constitutional and human rights of atheists and the philosophy and aims of Atheist Ireland. I met with the Jewish community which discussed the religious rights and practices of the community. We also discussed anti-Semitism which was of great interest to the members present.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach has made it clear that he will not act on the recommendation of the sixth report of the Convention on the Constitution, although the Minister of State, Deputy Ó Ríordáin, told the Dáil that this recommendation was accepted and that a referendum would be held to remove the offence of blasphemy from the Constitution. The law defines blasphemy as publishing or saying something that is grossly abusive or insulting in respect of matters held sacred by any religion, thereby causing outrage among a substantial number of the adherents of that religion.

There is an exception where literary, artistic or academic merit can be proved. This, arguably, might not be such a huge issue, given that no one has been convicted of blasphemy in Ireland since 1855. However, the acts of violence by ISIS, the civil wars in Iraq and Syria, the attack in North Carolina, the huge atrocities committed in north Africa and which are ongoing in parts of the Middle East and the recent attack in Tunisia in which three Irish citizens and 38 other folks were slaughtered all underline the role fundamentalism, political sectarianism and race hatred continue to play in the world. The State has a ban on incitement to hatred, including on religious grounds, but the removal of the blasphemy clause from the Constitution would send a very powerful message across the world that the Irish people were opposed to sectarianism, which is still prevalent in Irish society today, in particular, in the North, as well as to intolerance, injustice and racial hatred.

It is good that the Taoiseach has met religious leaders. When we last discussed this issue in January, he said he was going to meet representatives of the Islamic faith. It is also good that he met Atheist Ireland and Jewish religious leaders, although, of course, these meetings were separate and unrelated. Having a structure and a strategy for the Taoiseach's meetings with religious leaders and others would be very helpful at this time because our focus has to be on strengthening pluralist values, building on the republican and democratic values of citizenship, equality and inclusivity. Lest we be too pious about all of this, there are lots of reminders of religious fundamentalism, including Catholic fundamentalism, in the scandals of the mother and baby homes, the Magdalen laundries and the mistreatment of women. The Government established a commission of investigation into mother and baby homes and certain related matters. The commission is to provide a full and proper account of what happened to vulnerable women, babies and children in these homes. Does the Taoiseach have any information on the progress of the commission and when its report is to be published? I previously asked but do not recall the Taoiseach answering if he had met any of the faith communities since the "Yes" vote in the marriage equality referendum and if he would make a statement on the matter. If he has answered that question, I stand corrected.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I also wish to ask about I believe the Taoiseach's one and only meeting with Atheist Ireland. Will he recognise that we now live in a very diverse society, a society in which there are many religions and faiths but also people of no faith? When will this fact be reflected by the Government and the State? We recently had a fantastic referendum result which provided for affirmation of LGBTQ rights, but it was much more than that. It was a statement of intent by the majority of people in the country that they wanted a tolerant and diverse society and that they also believed there should be a separation of Church and State. I firmly believe this. Odinary people are way ahead of the political establishment in these matters. In health, education and other aspects of life we need to start deconstructing the symbiotic relationship between Church and State. Do we really need to have an archbishop sitting on the board of the National Maternity Hospital? What gynaecological expertise does he have? In the education sector is it acceptable - the United Nations does not think it is - that atheists like me who, according to the census, actually make up about 8% of the population, as well as people of minority faiths, have nowhere to send their children to school in most areas? The Catholic Church controls 90% of primary schools, while I think the Church of Ireland controls about 6%, which means that there are really very few alternatives for those living in most locations. We heard a lot of platitudes about divesting schools and starting to reflect the demand for more diversity, but it did not happen.

I understand Atheist Ireland raised three issues with the Taoiseach. The first was to recognise that a large number of issues remained to be addressed. The group was concerned, in particular, about the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill, which is going through the Oireachtas, and section 37, an issue which the House has debated. The Labour Party's Bill on that issue in the Seanad still allows for discrimination against atheist teachers, for example. A Catholic primary school would be allowed to not employ somebody who did not believe and it seems that this would be okay. That is not acceptable. The United Nations Human Rights Committee has told Ireland to stop breaching the human rights of minorities and atheists. It does not matter if the majority are Catholics; the rights of others have to be respected also. The third issue was the case of Louise O'Keeffe in the European Court of Justice where it had to be proved that the State was responsible for protecting her rights. The State has not as yet owned up to this.

The leader of Fianna Fáil referred to the Angelus. We need to start separating civil society from a person's private religious faith. For instance, in this House each morning when it begins its business, we have a prayer, but it is a Catholic prayer. As a lot of people are not Catholics, why do we do this? We need to separate the civic space from the religious space. I am fully in favour of protecting people's religious rights to worship but not of inflicting it on the rest of society.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Gerry Adams raised the question of blasphemy. The Government made a decision that there should be a referendum on the issue. I am glad to note the support of the Opposition parties, which is different from what applied in the past. The issue can be carried forward by way of agreement. Whatever Government the people select in the future can decide to follow through on that decision and hold a referendum on the issue. There is a structure to the dialogue and, as I said in my opening remarks, the agenda can be determined by either side. Issues that might be of importance to any of the religious groups or institutions may be raised, if they wish to do so. I found the discussions with the different groups exceptionally interesting in the issues they raised. For instance, the Humanist Association stressed the importance of removing the requirement for incoming Presidents, judges and members of the Council of State to make a religious declaration on taking office. It explained that a humanist could not hold any one of the positions mentioned. It referred to the number of instances in the education system where parents said they had their children baptised solely for the purpose of obtaining a baptismal certificate to increase their chances of securing school places. The former Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, pointed to all of these matters in the move towards having a more disparate patronage of schools. At the meeting the Minister for Education and Skills explained that the Equal Status Acts, 2000 and 2004, allowed for schools to be selective in their admissions policies when they were oversubscribed. The requirement to produce a baptismal certificate was one of the criteria that schools could adapt.

When I met Atheist Ireland, it referred to Article 42 of the Constitution, which states:

The State acknowledges that the primary and natural educator of the child is the Family and guarantees to respect the inalienable right and duty of parents to provide, according to their means, for the religious and moral, intellectual, physical and social education of their children.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger made a point about minority faiths.

This was part of the process that the former Minister, Deputy Quinn, had put in place to deal with these issues which became very real to me when they pointed out what they have to do every day in respect of their children. Obviously, there is an issue for further discussion here. I take the Deputy's point about the minority faiths.

I refer briefly to the issue of mother and baby homes that was raised. The commission was established on 19 February under section 32 of the Commissions of Investigation Act and it is working away. The terms of reference include clarifying that the intended focus is on single women and children being accommodated for the purpose of receiving extended and supervised maternity and infant care services in mother and baby homes; defining the specific issues of public concern as discrete matters to be investigated; and specifying a list of mother and baby homes; and defining the relevant period as being from 1922 to 1998, while allowing the commission to reduce the relevant period in respect of any component part or institution if it considers it appropriate to do so.

The two modules under way are scheduled to be completed by August 2016 and the commission will complete its final report not later than February 2018. Deputies will appreciate that the range of years from 1922 to 1998 is enormous and the timescale to do that is appropriate.