Dáil debates

Wednesday, 10 June 2015

12:00 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I raise with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, the ongoing debate around the commission of investigation into issues pertaining to IBRC and the need for absolute clarity in relation to the terms of reference the Government has proposed and guarantees that they cover key issues. The heart of this goes back to concerns raised by civil servants in the Department of Finance on the governance at IBRC. Thanks to the painstaking efforts of Deputy Catherine Murphy, we learned of that through freedom of information and parliamentary questions. At the heart of the concerns was a sense that IBRC was being mismanaged, that there were governance issues at the very heart of it and, for example, that departmental officials had concerns about the relationships between big borrowers and key personalities within the management of IBRC, including the CEO, Mr. Aynsley, Mr. Hunerson and, indeed, Mr. Woodhouse. This is all minuted in departmental information files. In responding to assertions by the Department as to whether relationships were too close - this involved Mr. McKillen, Mr. O'Brien and others - Mr. Aynsley said, "They are strong but not inappropriate" and "I might have had four of five dinners or lunches with them". That is how he responded.

Why I raise that is because yesterday evening in the Dáil, Deputy Pearse Doherty raised - Deputy Catherine Murphy raised it last week and the week before - the so-called loan extensions that Mr. O'Brien sought, which are being disputed. The terms of reference refer to contractual relationships. In the context of the loan extensions, Mr. O'Brien apparently argued that he had a verbal assurance with Mr. Aynsley and Mr. Woodhouse. The bottom line is that it seems to be a bit unclear as to whether that verbal assurance is covered by the terms of reference and by the phrase "contractual relationships". The language used in the terms of reference is tortuous. We asked for "governance at a macro level" to be put in and while that is done, it is qualified in the manner in which it is put in. The same applies to this issue. Last night, the Minister for Finance said in response to Deputy John McGuinness that it is covered by the terms of reference. I ask the Minister, Deputy Bruton, to give an assurance to the House between now and the close of the debate that the Government will come forward with language in the form of an amendment that makes it absolutely clear that the issue of the loan extensions moving into the liquidator's sphere and period is absolutely covered by the terms of reference, as are the other issues that we have alluded to.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Martin for his questions. First, this is clearly a painful legacy of a bank that was not governed by proper regulation over many years. I recall clearly that when money was first put into this bank by the previous Government, we were told it was solvent shortly after it took control. We are now entering the last act of this arrangement and it is important to bear in mind that the only actions this Government has taken in respect of Anglo and IBRC have been, first, to change the control framework - under the previous Fianna Fáil arrangement, there was no official within the IBRC to oversee what was occurring - and, second, to liquidate the bank. Both of those decisions will be vindicated by the history of this.

In terms of the question specifically raised, I give the Deputy absolute assurance that the issues raised by Deputy Doherty and others are within the terms of reference. There is no doubt about this. The Minister for Finance signalled that last night and the Attorney General, who has reviewed the documentation, has also confirmed it. There is no doubt that the issues about which Deputy Martin has raised concern are within the terms of reference and will be covered. The judge will have the power to investigate the issues raised in the debate last night. I hope that gives the Deputy assurance.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I regret that, again, the Minister had to be politically partisan in his opening remarks. What he just stated in his opening remarks was exactly what the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, said during the Private Members' debate and in answer to a parliamentary question to me some time back. He had to come to the House and, humiliatingly, apologise. He also wrote to me to apologise because the assertion that nothing happened until after March 2012 was wrong. Nevertheless, the Minister comes in and says it again. I know from my own sources that there was a relationship between the Department of Finance and Anglo Irish Bank after it was nationalised going right back to 2009. We know now that there were board minutes going right back. The Minister should please not repeat the falsehood that was articulated in the House a week or two ago.

We have sought to be constructive here and we met with the Minister for Finance to get the terms of reference right. We understand that we are not going to get everything, but the language was tortuous. I must be honest with the Minister and say I would like to think the term "contractual obligation" covers the verbal assurances that Mr. O'Brien says he got from Mr. Aynsley and others, but I am not certain. I have preliminary legal advice, but I am not certain and the House deserves certainty on that point. Are loan agreements that might have taken place under the old Anglo Irish Bank outside the relevant period or not? Given the controversy that has arisen, we cannot let this hang. There is an absolute necessity for the Government to make it clear in writing that this issue is covered within the terms of reference. This issue also underlines the need for an interim report by the end of October as there are a lot of issues hanging out there now. They cannot hang out there forever. I refer to the Siteserv issue and the issue of the loan extension.

Photo of Peter MathewsPeter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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There is also interest overcharging.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is unacceptable that it would be allowed to drag on over an indefinite timeframe and, as such, we need clarity and certainty in relation to it. Given what the Minister has said, it should be within the Government's capacity to give that certainty in writing before the close of the debate.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I have given the Deputy the assurance he needs in the House. I have given him the assurance of the Minister for Finance and the assurance of the Attorney General, who is the legal adviser to the Government. Any reading of the terms of reference clearly embraces this. It was specifically in response to concerns raised by Deputies that the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, included within the investigation the issue here on contractual obligations agreed during the relevant period but not executed until after. It was very clearly in response to concerns to make sure the terms of reference covered this that they were framed in this way.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is a verbal agreement contractual?

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin may not like legalistic argument that goes into terms of reference, but we have the assurance of the Attorney General that the wording here is absolutely categorical that these cases will be included.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can that be written as an appendix to the terms of reference?

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I have never heard of appendices being written by Attorneys General to legal documents adopted by the Dáil and neither has Deputy Martin.

That would be a wholly inappropriate approach. We have the terms of reference and the categorical assurance that they will cover the issues of concern raised by Deputies. These are legitimate public interest concerns and it is right that we have an investigation. We have appointed a judge who will do this. All of the documentation provided by Deputy Doherty or others will be provided to the judge who has the authority confirmed by the Attorney General to pursue these issues and to satisfy the public as to how these were handled.

12:10 pm

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Government's draft terms of reference for the commission of investigation concerning Irish Bank Resolution Corporation has a cut-off date of 7 February 2013 which is the date of the appointment of the special liquidator. Information was passed by Sinn Féin's finance spokesperson, Deputy Pearse Doherty, to the Taoiseach so the Taoiseach has all the information and not just the part of it which was read into the record of the House yesterday. I have also seen this documentation which indicates transactions, activities and decisions beyond the date set in the Government's terms of reference. The special liquidators have disposed of €21.7 billion of loans since that date and that dwarfs the sales in the period open to the commission to look at under the Government's terms of reference. We are talking about billions of the people's money being transferred to private interests in a completely opaque way. This money could have been spent on hospitals, schools, houses and in combating poverty. They include the sale of Racing Postloans which have been criticised by a bidder as being less than transparent. It includes the sales of the mortgages of thousands of people to unregulated vultures that also fall into this timeframe. Contrary to the Minister's claims and the Minister for Finance's claims, these and the period involved are not included in the Government's terms of reference and could be subject to a legal challenge or not investigated at all if the terms of reference are not amended.

One of Sinn Féin's amendments proposes that the relevant period be from 12 January 2009 to 12 March 2015, inclusive, in order to cover all of these transactions. That is what Fianna Fáil should support if the Government does not signal clearly that it will accept our amendment. Will the Government accept our amendment and change the terms of reference accordingly?

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I do not accept that the liquidator has been dealing in an opaque way with loans that have disposed of. The legislation governing the liquidator provides that he must get an independent valuation of the loans and the loans must then be disposed of by way of open public tender. He cannot dispose of the loans below the value indicated by the independent evaluation - they have to go to NAMA - and he cannot dispose of them below that price.

Photo of Peter MathewsPeter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Not true.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Stay quiet, please.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The provisions in the legislation governing the liquidator are clear and they are transparent in the way they operate. As for the issue raised by Deputy Adams in respect of the files provided by Deputy Pearse Doherty, these have been reviewed by the Attorney General and she has given the assurances that they will be covered by the commission of investigation.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There are more.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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As an example.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Furthermore, these files will be provided to the judge who will be chairing the commission and he will have full access to the files that Deputy Doherty has identified. The terms of reference fully accommodate the issues that have been raised by Deputy Doherty. I can only give Deputy Adams the assurances and I hope he accepts them.

Photo of Peter MathewsPeter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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I raised those matters an hour ago.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Deputy Mathews, you are not a leader yet. Please allow Deputy Adams to take his question without interruption.

Photo of Peter MathewsPeter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Is it in prospect?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Talk to Deputy Broughan who is on your left. He might take you on board.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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It is on the cards.

Photo of Noel CoonanNoel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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This is not a Vincent Browne rave up.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The people who are listening in to this are seeing their money being frittered away; they are seeing the way the Government responds to these issues and seeing the way the Minister has refused to deal with the very simple straightforward proposition from Sinn Féin to amend the terms of reference. Let me make it clear to the Minister that it is totally and absolutely unacceptable. Deputy Pearse Doherty made it clear yesterday that he was reading that section into the record of the House to point out one of the transactions which was being claimed had taken place in order that the Government would change the terms of reference. The Government has not changed the terms of reference. However, this is in line with the Government's refusal to deal properly with these issues of major public concern, despite them being brought to its attention for more than three years.

Another example is the mystery of the missing minutes and the Minister for Finance's failure thus far to explain when he was first alerted to the sale of Siteserv. Did the Minister for Jobs, Innovation and Enterprise, Deputy Bruton, know of the sale of Siteserv before the Minister for Finance? Sinn Féin has uncovered via a freedom of information request that the issue of Millington's purchase of Siteserv was reported to the Competition Authority on 16 March 2012 and reported to the Minister, Deputy Bruton, in correspondence from the Competition Authority on 20 March 2012 and on 21 May 2012. This issue was already a matter of major public concern. On 17 March 2012, Fiona Reddan, writing in The Irish Times, drew attention to Siteserv being sold to Denis O'Brien for €45 million in cash with a loss to the taxpayer of €105 million and an award of almost €5 million to Siteserv executives and shareholders. Why was the Government not alert to these issues, especially when it was being brought, along with all of this, to the Government's attention by the Minister's own officials? Was the Minister aware of the Siteserv deal before the Minister for Finance knew? I ask him to please tell us when the Minister for Finance became aware of this deal.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Money was not frittered away by this Government in respect of Anglo Irish Bank. This Government did not put a single euro into Anglo Irish Bank. All of the money was put in by the previous Government and the actions by this Government and by the Minister, Deputy Michael Noonan, reduced the cost of the debt of Anglo Irish Bank. Also, the liquidation is actually showing signs that we will get back more than was expected. No taxpayers' money is being frittered away by the actions of this Government in respect of Anglo Irish Bank. To be honest, Sinn Féin is playing a political game, despite getting assurances that all of the issues raised are being covered by the agenda.

Photo of Sandra McLellanSandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I believe they are not.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Sinn Féin wants to find a reason to vote against this. In so far as the issue of the sale of Siteserv, it was notified to the Competition Authority among many other such mergers on grounds of competition.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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And the Minister?

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Competition Authority made very clear that there were no issues of competition in respect of that sale. I accepted the advice from the Competition Authority and officials at that time.

Sinn Féin is scrambling around to find some reason to vote against the terms of reference of an investigation that is clearly going to deal with all of the issues of public concern-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I have seen this in the past but this is a robust inquiry. We have the assurances of the Attorney General and this inquiry will deal with this issue in a timely way so that we can have a report here by the end of the year.

Photo of Peter MathewsPeter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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What is the Minister afraid of?

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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I wish to remind the Minister of what the Taoiseach said yesterday during Leaders' Questions: "I have been a supporter for a very long time of the idea that Dáil questions should be answered as fully and as completely as possible." Fair play to the Taoiseach. Perhaps he could have let the Minister, Deputy Noonan, know that this is the approach of the Government. Four weeks ago I asked the Taoiseach a very simple question. I asked how many people had paid the water charges so far. In response, he advised me to toddle along to the AV room where Irish Water would give me the answers to any questions I wished to ask. Indeed, he accused me of thinking I was Julius Caesar because I wanted an answer to a question in the segment of Dáil business known as Leaders' Questions. He then said that the point of Leaders' Questions was to tell us where to go.

Undeterred by this less than full and complete answer, Deputy Coppinger and myself duly toddled along to the audiovisual room and asked the people from Irish Water the question. They confirmed that over 600,000 bills had passed their pay-by date and that they knew how many of those had been paid and how many had not. However, they refused outright to give us the figures for payment.

12:20 pm

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Transparency.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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They said it would not be helpful to do so. Helpful to whom? We then took the advice of the Minister, Deputy Noonan, that if one really wants an answer to a question, one has to submit a freedom of information request. We duly submitted the request, in response to which Irish Water confirmed that by 18 May almost 800,000 bills had passed their pay-by date, although it again refused to say how many had paid and not paid on the grounds that disclosure of the information could reasonably be expected to result in undue disturbance of the ordinary course of business. Could that be because the payment levels are on the floor and disclosure of the figures would undermine the Government's scare campaign and give many others the confidence not to pay?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question, please.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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Could it be that it would give confidence to people, particularly at a time when people are looking at the IBRC scandal, the bailout and write-offs for the rich, for the Denis O'Briens, at the expense of the majority through measures such as the water charges?

Four weeks later, I came back to the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, in place of the Taoiseach. By now almost all of the bills have issued-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is over time. Would he please put a question?

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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I am at the question now. A total of 1.4 million bills have passed their pay-by date. I ask for a full and complete answer to two simple and precise questions. Have the figures for rates of payment been discussed between Irish Water and the Government? How many of those due to pay have paid the water charges by now and how many have not?

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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If the Deputy is unhappy with the response to the freedom of information request, there is an independent Information Commissioner, who will deal with those issues.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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What about the parliamentary question?

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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Although I do not have the information that the Deputy seeks available to me here, I can say that the establishment of Irish Water is an important national infrastructure. We have laboured under a system in which 34 different local authorities have operated a water network. We have seen leakages from that water network of up to 50%.

Photo of Sandra McLellanSandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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It still leaks.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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In this city, the supply system has been on a knife edge, and we saw last year interruptions of supply.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Deputy Bruton will not answer the question.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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We are now introducing a system whereby we will have a single utility which will have a revenue stream.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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We will have another commission of investigation on this.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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We need a modern water infrastructure that is fit for purpose, and that is what the Government has been putting in place. There will be multiples of the revenue stream in terms of investment into that infrastructure to provide a system that will be fit for the 21st century. It will be available to support job creation, home ownership and home building.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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May I remind the Minister for the second time what the Taoiseach said yesterday? "I have been a supporter for a very long time of the idea that Dáil questions should be answered as fully and as completely as possible."

Photo of Arthur SpringArthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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As possible.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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I asked the question in the Dáil four weeks ago. I was told by the Taoiseach to go to Irish Water, to toddle along, where I would be given the answer. Four weeks have passed and we come back and ask the same questions again.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Toddle along.

Photo of Colm KeaveneyColm Keaveney (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Where is the Taoiseach?

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Where is the toddler?

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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The Minister did not answer one of my two questions. I am going to ask it very clearly and would like a clear answer in response. Has the Government discussed the levels of payment with Irish Water? Has there been communication of information about the levels of payment from Irish Water to the Government? I would like a clear answer to that question. It is simply not credible that they have not been discussed. The only conclusion people can draw is that the Government is hiding the figures, although it boasted about the bloated registration figures, because the figures are on the floor. That explains the scare tactics and the attempt to suggest Irish Water can take the charges from people's wages, social welfare benefits or pensions when it simply cannot. That is simply a dirty lie.

To come back to simple questions, looking for simple answers, has the Government discussed the payment levels with Irish Water and can the Minister please give us the figures?

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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In the old days we would have called it a cover-up.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I am afraid the Deputy will have to table a question to the Minister responsible.

Photo of Sandra McLellanSandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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It is Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I do not have that answer. Leaders' Questions is not designed to table individual questions to individual Ministers.

Photo of Sandra McLellanSandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Bruton should not be taking Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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I can assure Deputy Paul Murphy that the introduction of Irish Water has been a very important element of a strategy to improve our water system. People who register by 30 June will have access to a conservation grant, which will be a very significant bonus.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister should answer the question.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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In a modern economy we need a modern water system. We have put in place a utility that will establish a properly managed approach.

Photo of Peter MathewsPeter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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He is the Minister for propaganda.

Photo of Richard BrutonRichard Bruton (Dublin North Central, Fine Gael)
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As we have seen in respect of a serious problem, namely, lead in water, which has been an issue of public concern, it is only through the establishment of Irish Water as a national utility that this issue has been identified. A national programme is now being put in place to deal with it. We are seeing the benefits of having a single integrated utility already and I believe it is the correct approach.

Photo of Paul MurphyPaul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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Has the Government discussed it with Irish Water?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We now move on to the Order of Business.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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This is a joke. Is there no obligation to respond to regular questions?

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Is the Ceann Comhairle not meant to ask people to answer the questions?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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No. It is not my job to answer questions.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is not the Minister's either. He also does not answer parliamentary questions.

Photo of Sandra McLellanSandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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It is nobody's job, then.

Photo of Dara MurphyDara Murphy (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Deputies know full well there is a difference between a parliamentary question and Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Paul Murphy should try submitting 19 parliamentary questions. He might be lucky.

Photo of Sandra McLellanSandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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There is no answer, yet again.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Irish Water will not fix the lead pipes.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It is a cover-up.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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You have had your say. Quiet now, please.