John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Before the Order of Business, the Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, made the remark that most of what was being said on this side of the House about Irish Water was ranting and raving.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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No solutions.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There are plenty of solutions over here.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Let us hear them.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State does not have a solution. The Government brought forward Irish Water.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Let us hear them.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is the Government's policy. If the Minister of State read the motion, he would find out exactly what is in it. Throwing his eyes up to heaven will not get the Minister of State anywhere and will not get him the answers he needs-----

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Pointing the finger will not get Deputy McGuinness anywhere either.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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-----to get out of the serious difficulties the Government is in.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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It is difficult to take lectures from Deputy McGuinness.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It was wrong of the Minister of State to say what he said because we have the right, in terms of the result of the previous election, to provide him with an opposition, about which he does not seem to worry too much in spite of the fact the Government was advised by professionals and the Opposition that Irish Water would not work.

The Tánaiste, in the course of the Order of Business, stated it would cost €2.5 billion to return the system of management of the water structure to the local authorities. I want to know from where that figure came. Would the Minister of State substantiate that figure line by line in order that we can understand it? The Government is throwing out loose facts and figures. They do not even know whether they are facts and figures, and they will not substantiate them, just as much as they did not know the cost of setting up Irish Water. We are where we are with Irish Water. Will the Minister of State request the Comptroller and Auditor General to examine the figures that have been put out by the Tánaiste for the cost of reversing the decision? Will he also ask the Comptroller and Auditor General to conduct a special report on the set-up cost of Irish Water?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Will Deputy McGuinness give way?

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Will the Member give way?

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is not the function of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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In answer to Deputy Durkan who seems to want to interrupt everyone, the Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform suggested in relation to Irish Water and the Poolbeg incinerator that the Committee of Public Accounts and the Comptroller and Auditor General should have a role in looking at the set-up costs. If the Government did that, it would take all the argument out of it. It would be relying on an independent body such as the Comptroller and Auditor General, who could look at the figures put forward by the Tánaiste, the scandalous waste of money in the employment of consultants and other matters in Irish Water, and who could inform the House independently of where all these costs stand. Will the Minister of State do that?

The Tánaiste referred to the taxpayer picking up the tab of €2.9 billion but it is the same taxpayer she expects to pick up the tab on the charges for the significant costs of setting up Irish Water. The Government cannot dismiss the fact it is the same taxpayer in every instance. She is misleading the House on that matter.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I thank all Members who contributed to this debate during the course of this week. The debate has been robust, comprehensive and informative.

The appearance of the Commission for Energy Regulation before the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht yesterday also provided meaningful engagement and an opportunity for Members of the House to understand the rationale behind the commission's decisions on Irish Water's charging plan.

In response to Deputy McGuinness, the Irish Water management team attended a meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht on 11 February 2014 and submitted and outlined in detail a comprehensive report on the costs of the Irish Water programme, including the establishment costs. That is available on the public record for all to see. I encourage Deputy McGuinness and anyone with an interest in the establishment costs to read the report of that committee.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I have read it. They were before the Committee of Public Accounts. I challenge the figures.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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It is all there to be seen. There has been a shared concern during the course of the debate this week to ensure we have significant investment in the water services infrastructure.

1 o’clock

That is now happening because we have created Irish Water as a public utility with a capacity to access off-balance sheet funding in the future. Contrary to assertions last night, investment is already increasing; capital expenditure on water services infrastructure should see an increase averaging €100 million in each of the years 2015 and 2016, in comparison to approximately €350 million this year. That does not include investment in domestic metering, which will reduce customer-side leakage and conservation measures, and assist Irish Water to make more targeted improvements and increase operational efficiency on the system.

I accept that Irish Water needs to communicate the major initiatives it has undertaken much more strongly, such as building a detailed record and database of all water and wastewater assets in the country, something that has never been done before, and it is vital to get the best value from the assets and to prioritise planned maintenance and investment. It must also explain again the justification for its establishment costs, build customer support and asset management systems. Irish Water must remind the public that the regulator approved and allowed 95% of its establishment costs. By comparison with similar water change programmes in the UK, the change in this country has been seen to be delivered at a comparable and efficient level.

The proposal by the Opposition and Fianna Fáil to leave things as they are is simply not an option. I do not believe the public would thank us if we continue with a 40% leakage rate, cryptosporidiosis in the public water system, lead pipes serving many of the public and a lack of capacity in large urban centres. Rather than undermining, scaremongering and spreading fear and misinformation among the public, which is what the Opposition is doing-----

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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That is what Fine Gael used to do.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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-----we would welcome some positive engagement on how to improve the water service and the utilities required to deliver for all citizens. However, we do not hear that. We hear that everything is a problem but we do not get any solutions.

I remind Fianna Fáil Members opposite that they signed up for water charges with the troika. They have obviously forgotten that. They are changing their position in order to be populist and to fit in somewhere.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Did the Minister of State hear the debate this morning?

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I refer the Minister of State to the NewERA document produced in 2009 by Fine Gael which referred to the introduction of water charges.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil also considered charging people €400 per annum for water.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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That is a lazy argument.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That is the truth.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Deputies raised several issues on which they were contacted by members of the public during the registration campaign, in particular relating to PPS numbers. It is considered normal to require PPS numbers in any interaction with the State where entitlements or allowances are claimed. I remind Deputies that it is incumbent on Irish Water to appropriately manage the provision of free allowances which are being funded by taxpayers. Strict laws and protocols govern the use of PPS numbers that are overseen by the Data Protection Commissioner and the Department of Social Protection. There is no question of PPS data being shared with anyone expect the Department of Social Protection. I urge people to provide the necessary information to claim their household allowance, which is worth €146 per annum, and the free allowance for qualified children worth €102 per child.

I urge people not to listen to Members of the Opposition. In fairness, I do not include Fianna Fáil, but many Independent Members, including those from the People Before Profit Alliance, have urged people not to register and not to pay. We saw what happened when they held public meetings around the country urging people not to pay the household charge and the property tax. Those who did not were left with added penalties and liabilities. Some of the Deputies holding the meetings charged €5 entry to the meeting-----

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Was that you, Mattie?

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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-----in exchange for the best legal advice, but when the penalties were imposed those same Deputies deserted the public.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Minister of State's time is up.

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The Government acknowledges the need for improved customer engagement and communications by Irish Water. My colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, had a very constructive engagement with Irish Water yesterday-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Where is he?

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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-----following which we expect to see improvements in that regard very shortly.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I thank my colleague, Deputy Barry Cowen, for tabling the motion and ensuring a debate on Irish Water but more importantly for the work he has done to ensure parliamentary scrutiny of Irish Water since last January. It was the Government's intention that there would be no such parliamentary scrutiny. Irish Water was designed to be above scrutiny and beyond questioning.

For all those Deputies of Government parties who spoke this morning about their genuine concerns or, to use the phrase of the Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, who were scaremongering about Irish Water, I draw their attention to Thursday, 19 December 2013, to the passage of the Water Services (No. 2) Bill. That was the Bill that gave carte blancheto Irish Water to operate in the way it does. Every single Government Deputy who complained this morning and who has complained on the fifth floor and in Leinster House 2000 and has run to the media, supported the passage of the Bill. Every one of them supported the guillotining of the Bill and ensured there was only two hours to discuss it. When the combined Opposition walked out of the Chamber in protest at the guillotining of the Bill and the lack of scrutiny of Irish Water, many of the Deputies who were belching and bellyaching this morning were the ones making the smart comments and unprintable remarks that day. Their troubles with Irish Water go back to the way it was created.

It is not the fault of Irish Water that the debate was guillotined that morning. It is not John Tierney’s fault. Ironically, the then Minister of State who led the guillotine that morning was Deputy Fergus O’Dowd, who now wants to guillotine John Tierney. Irish Water was set up to be beyond scrutiny, reproach or answer. That is the reason we have the current mess. Deputies must go back to the day in question and reflect on their behaviour. The ball is very much at the Government’s door.

Reference was made to change in Irish Water and engagement with it but the Government amendment to the motion does not hint at any drive for change from Government quarters. There is no mention in the Government amendment of the bonus culture in Irish Water or, to use the Ervia phrase, the at-risk pay model. That sounds like a bonus, talks like a bonus and is a bonus. There is nothing to address that in the Government amendment. Several times this morning the Tánaiste was asked to criticise the bonus culture but she avoided doing so.

We can take it from the Government amendment that it believes the current allowances are adequate and appropriate, when anyone with a modicum of sense knows they are nowhere near what is required. They are nowhere near the kind of usage required by a family with adult children. If one’s adult children are on social welfare they receive a considerably reduced social welfare rate because they are living at home with their parents but no concession is made when it comes to the water allowance.

Concerns were expressed this morning by Government Deputies on bonuses, the manner in which Irish Water treats this House and customers, but when the time comes to vote on the Government amendment which approves the manner in which Irish Water operates, they will face the test. That is when all the words they have spoken will be put to the test. We will then see whether it is a time for words or action.

The Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, spoke about the communication strategy of Irish Water. He wants Irish Water to actively review its communication strategy, yet the amendment does not commit to bringing Irish Water under the control of the Committee of Public Accounts, as Deputy McGuinness outlined, and neither has a commitment been made to allow for Members to use the parliamentary questions system to inquire about Irish Water projects. It has been said that is not the responsibility of the Minister, Deputy Kelly, but rather the responsibility of Irish Water. There is no commitment to ensure Irish Water is accountable in the same way as the HSE and that it would have to come before the Joint Committee on the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht four or five times a year to answer questions. The Government is happy with the status quo and how Irish Water is operating, in spite of all the criticism and leaks that come from meetings of Government parties.

Members of Government parties criticised the manner in which Irish Water has sought PPS numbers. The Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, explained the reason he believes such numbers are required. If one is aged over 18 in this country, one is on the electoral register. If one is aged under 18, one is not. If one is on the electoral register, surely one should be entitled to an adult allowance without handing over one’s PPS number? The Tánaiste said this morning that in the area of educational grants, SUSI requires PPS numbers. However, it is not a commercial semi-State body that is being sized up for potential sale down the line. It is a grant-awarding body. A commercial semi-State body such as Irish Water should not need one’s PPS number. It cannot be trusted with such numbers. If allowances are required, they could be provided through the Department of Social Protection, which controls the numbers.

I refer to the concern about PPS numbers expressed some weeks ago in the case in County Wicklow. This is a cause for concern; our offices always treat PPS numbers with great care. I refer to one of my constituents who spent 48 minutes on the phone to Irish Water, which is a commercial semi-State body, in an attempt to get a registration pack but had to give up after 48 minutes even though he still wants to get the pack. I do not understand how it is possible to trust a body to deal with PPS numbers when its personnel cannot answer a telephone call after 48 minutes.

The Government amendment to the motion misses the point. There is no confidence in Irish Water nor any confidence in a company that will spend its first year's revenues on staff and set-up costs and on paying for this bonus culture. There is no confidence in a company that will avoid spending its first year's revenue on dealing with the leaks. I refer to the notion of there having been a lack of investment in the infrastructure over past years. Ireland has become the major location for the pharmaceutical industry and this industry requires reliable water provision which was provided by the local authorities. Likewise the food industry needs a reliable water supply and this was provided by the local authorities. The local authorities responded to the challenge of providing good water supplies and they did so without the gold-plated structure which has been put in place.

I met the chairperson of a group water scheme with 150 members who has operated the scheme for 30 years. He reckons that he could do any job in Irish Water and he might take up the Minister's invitation to join the board of Irish Water. Group water schemes in general were managed with little drama and without bonuses and gold plating and they did the job. People look at the culture of entitlement and bonus in Irish Water and they see the cost of consultants whose advice is ignored and yet the people are being asked to pay for it. They are being asked to pay for something they do not have and neither have they the money to pay for it. They do not have confidence in the process and they realise that there is no scrutiny of the body to which they are paying their money. That is why it will not work. This is not a communications issue but rather there is a fundamental fault in the design envisaged by Fine Gael in 2009 in its NewERA document. This is the Government's chance to put the brakes on this policy, to restore people's faith in this House and in politics and a chance for the Government to state that it is hearing what the people are saying. The fault with the communications strategy is not entirely Irish Water's fault; it rests in the main with the Government.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all speakers for their contributions to this debate, both expected and unexpected. I was mildly surprised at some of the earlier contributions and the weight of those contributions will be judged in the next minutes.

In my contribution on Tuesday I said this process had been, as Deputy O'Dowd said, an unmitigated disaster. The democratic process was usurped by the Economic Management Council comprised of the Taoiseach, the Ministers, Deputy Noonan and Deputy Howlin, and the Tánaiste. Anyone who stood in the way of that policy decision and the means by which the funding would be allocated to put it in place, was steamrolled. Notwithstanding the advice of the PwC report commissioned by the same Government and notwithstanding the advice of the Opposition, this Fine Gael and Labour Party Government proceeded with that Fine Gael policy contained in the 2009 NewERA document, which set up Irish Water and transferred the assets worth €11 billion into its ownership.

A gold-plated, bonus-driven super-quango has materialised into the animal that many of us envisaged. The Government policy direction to Irish Water is rebounding and many of the Deputies in the Government parties realise the error of their ways. They realise that this very issue could rid them of their seats. They realise that they have shown blind allegiance to their superiors. Now they have to shift the blame from their superiors and instead blame Irish Water, its staff, its board and the chief executive officer. As Deputy Calleary said, it is everyone's fault bar their own.

The Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, in his contribution on Tuesday night gave the Civil Service-speak and talked about the so-called under-investment in the previous years but he failed to acknowledge that €4.6 billion was spent in the first decade of this century. I agree there has not been sufficient investment and there needs to be more. The archaic system was built long before any of us arrived and long before this State was formed-----

Paudie Coffey (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's party opposed the ESB when the State was formed.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I appeal to the Ceann Comhairle. Can the clock be suspended?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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No. Please, Deputy.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister read the script placed in front of him and he moved out to RTE where he gave a different angle for the viewing public. He said he was worried about the scale and the size of this monstrosity. He said he was worried about the timelines associated with its direction as given by the Government. He said he was worried about the bonus-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Was the Deputy watching?

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I was watching because I was supposed to be out in RTE but I was told I was not allowed.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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That is a serious accusation.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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He was worried about the bonus scale and the bonuses and he said he would do something about it. He was worried about the communications.

We have heard there were meetings last night in different parts of Leinster House, where groups undertook role play sessions. I wonder who was acting the part of Irish Water and who was acting the part of the customer.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Seán Conlan.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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They should have plenty of experience acting the part of the customer if what they hear in their clinics is anything to go by.

Frantic efforts are being made to save face, some examples of which were heard in the debate on this motion. Deputy Buttimer was the first to say he wanted an open and frank debate. As Deputy Calleary said we asked for that on 19 December last year and we got our answer-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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There was no debate.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We were told we would be shut up and the guillotine would be used, as it has been for 65% of legislation brought before the House by this Government. That is the way they do business; they do not just withhold information from their own Cabinet as they did in the establishment of Irish Water, they withhold it from this House and from anyone who seeks to question the Government on this subject or any other subject.

Deputy Derek Nolan and Deputy Anthony Lawlor appeared to give full support to this motion. Deputy Lawlor blamed the chief executive officer, as he did last week. Thank God he did not use the language he used then. He said there needs to be an assessed charge and that students over 18 should not be charged. He said there should be a cap on payments for any household. Deputy Robert Dowds of the Labour Party said there should be a standing charge until all meters are installed. Deputy Joe Costello of the Labour Party said that Irish Water is a subject and a company of derision. He voted for its establishment; he allowed his party to implement the policy to give it effect. Deputy Mulherin from Mayo and Fine Gael, said that the CER data is not sufficient and that the call-out fee and the allowances are ridiculous. She said the CER is being asked to do a job but it has not had an opportunity to assess the call-out charges. Those charges amount to €700 in some instances and the great news is that there might be a rebate when the CER examines the costs eventually. Then we are told they have not rushed the process but the CER is unable to catch up with the Government in its rush to charge. Deputy Keating said there should be a limited time to sort this out and there should be an assessed charge. This is the theme running through the role play carried out last night. Deputy O'Mahony, like the Minister, said he is not happy with the bonuses. He wants there to be a flat charge and he calls for an overhaul of the system. He said the postmen are unable to keep up with the volume of post which they are expected to deliver by the due date. This is further evidence of the rush which is synonymous with this project.

I did not have to say that it has been an unmitigated disaster because it was said by one of their own on the other side of the House. One by one I listened to those who were allowed to speak giving vent to their frustration and anger based on what is being said to them in their constituencies and throughout the country.

It is plain for everyone to see in the electoral performances in recent weeks. If their crocodile tears mean anything, they should support the motion and force the Government to do something about it. Otherwise they are blindly supporting it. The Government implemented it and is using them as cannon fodder. If they think it is the Government's problem, that it caused it or should do something about it, they should withdraw their support for it.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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As a teller, under Standing Order 69, and in light of the debate we had and many of the comments voiced by Government Members, I offer them another opportunity to walk blindly behind this legislation, as they did last December, and I propose that the vote be taken by other than electronic means.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil drove the country blindly over a cliff.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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As Deputy Barry Cowen is a teller, under Standing Order 69 he is entitled to call a vote through the lobby.