Dáil debates

Thursday, 20 February 2014

12:00 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yesterday the Taoiseach stated in the House, in respect of the confidential recipient and Garda whistleblower, that "having read all of the statements made and having been in contact with the Minister for Justice and Equality who is very concerned about this matter [...] he has this morning relieved Mr. Connolly of his duties." There has been nothing else from the Taoiseach or the Minister and no comprehensive statement from the latter concerning the entire affair or outlining the rationale for relieving Mr. Connolly of his duties. After the emergence of the transcript, there was absolute silence from the Minister for Justice and Equality for approximately two weeks, and then there was a very minimalist response. Everybody is expected to believe that in the conversation involving the confidential recipient and the Minister, the confidential recipient is wrong in his assertions vis-à-vis the Minister.

Yesterday I handed a series of shocking cases to the Taoiseach involving assault, sexual assault and a range a very profound, serious and shocking incidents. I seek clarification on a very key point. The confidential recipient would have had possession of all this material for approximately two years. It involves, in its entire detail, the case of the abduction and assault of Mary Lynch, the subsequent abduction of a child in Tipperary by the same culprit and the subsequent murder of Sylvia Roche Kelly. The confidential recipient got it in the form of a complaint from Mr. Maurice McCabe, the whistleblower. It included all of those cases to which I have referred and many more. The information was sent to the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, by the confidential recipient. We know this from the transcript because it states:

Connolly: Shatter would have read your report in detail, I know he did, he communicated with me and he will have read all of your exhibits, which I actually labelled them numbered one to nine in the actual, in the order they were highlighted so he did know. And you know I redacted, the only thing I redacted was your name. Alan studied everything in fact I know he did.
The Minister knew about these very shocking and serious cases for two years. With knowledge of those cases, he comes into this House and actually accuses the whistleblower of not co-operating with the Garda in its inquiry into the penalty points saga, undermining the man's credibility in the public domain. This was fundamentally wrong.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That is not the full story, though.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, agree that we require a comprehensive statement from the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, on the reasons he decided to relieve Mr. Connolly of his duties? Second, does she agree it is now important that the Minister for Justice and Equality make a comprehensive statement in the House on the entire affair and apologise to the whistleblower, Mr. Maurice McCabe, for wronging him through the allegation of non-co-operation? Can the Minister for Social Protection say to the House that she has confidence in Deputy Shatter as Minister for Justice and Equality?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy sent the letter to the Taoiseach yesterday, or last evening. He received it last evening. As the Deputy said, there are important issues raised in the letter and material that he sent. The Taoiseach is examining the material very carefully. The Deputy will understand that, having just received the information last night, the Taoiseach wants to consider it and reflect on it very carefully. Therefore, I will not comment at this point on what the outcome might be. The Deputy would agree that if this is a significant and important matter, it deserves very careful consideration and examination rather than simply a go-to response, which I believe is what the Deputy is implying should be given this morning. If the Deputy sent the material to the Taoiseach, it is reasonable to expect the Taoiseach to consider it carefully. I have not actually seen the material. I understand the only person who has received it is the Taoiseach.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, received it two years ago.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy spoke about the material he communicated to the Taoiseach. I have not seen that material. The Deputy is suggesting the material sent by him is already held by other people.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister for Social Protection is representing the Taoiseach today.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am just saying the Taoiseach needs time to examine the material. He just got it from the Deputy last night.

With regard to confidence in the Minister for Justice and Equality, the Government announced yesterday, on foot of the advice of the Attorney General, that an independent inquiry would be carried out by Mr. Justice John Cooke.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That has nothing to do with it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The judge has agreed to the terms of reference of the inquiry, as drawn up by the Attorney General.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not talking about that.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy asked whether I had confidence in the Minister.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Yes or no?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Members should speak through the Chair.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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One of Deputy Martin's questions was whether I have confidence in the Minister for Justice and Equality.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is taking the Minister a long time to answer.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputies please allow a reply to a question?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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This is one of the questions I was asked.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Minister has nine seconds left.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I have confidence in the Minister, Deputy Shatter, first because the Government has now established an independent inquiry under one of the most esteemed jurists in the country, who is regarded on all sides as somebody with an excellent record as a legal practitioner and judge.

A Deputy:

Appointed in 1996 by Fine Gael.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Second, as the House knows, the Oireachtas committee has been given powers to examine the legislation in respect of GSOC. Third, the Minister for Justice and Equality attended yesterday a meeting of the committee of considerable length - four hours - to go through all the matters that have been raised. If there are other matters-----

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Has the Minister for Social Protection confidence in the Minister for Justice and Equality? Yes or no?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister for Justice and Equality has indicated he is available if there are other issues to be discussed and raised. On the question as to whether I have confidence in the Minister, Deputy Shatter, the answer is, "Yes, the Government has confidence in Minister Shatter."

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Has the Minister for Social Protection got confidence in him?

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will Deputy Martin's supporters please quieten down and allow him to ask his supplementary question?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is the document-----

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Which document?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is a document that was sent to the confidential recipient on 23 January 2012.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Which document is that? I do not have that document.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are not to display these documents in the Dáil Chamber.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Which document is that?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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If the Minister lets me explain-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There has to be order. Will the Deputy put his question, please?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This document is a complaint about very serious matters and it refers to very serious issues. It was sent to the confidential recipient and it was sent to the Minister for Justice and Equality in January 2012. Can I be any clearer?

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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When did Deputy Martin get them?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I got these this morning. I got this actual document this morning.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy put the question?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What I am saying is that the material-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is incredible.

12:10 pm

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please put your supplementary question without interruption.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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With respect, will the Minister stop trying to undermine people who are bringing very important matters of concern into the public domain? She should stop doing that. She has done too much of it. The Minister, Deputy Shatter, undermined a good man in the case of the whistleblower. The documentation here contains some of the material I gave to the Taoiseach yesterday concerning the cases. The pertinent point is that these shocking cases were given to the Minister for Justice and Equality two years ago. There is no doubt about that-----

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy knew about them four years ago.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and there is no doubt that he read and studied them. The confidential recipient says, "I know he did". He read them and he knew their gravity. What happened? Nothing happened.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy knew about them four years ago.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Would you please put your question?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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All of this ran into the sand. These are very serious issues. The bottom line is that there simply must be a commission of inquiry into these matters of grave public concern. The Minister did not answer the questions I asked her. Does she not think the Minister should come here today and address the House on the gravity of the assertions and allegations that have been made? The House is being treated with contempt on this issue. There has been silence about this transcript and the issues contained it for the last two weeks and there has been a minimalist response from the Minister, so far, in respect of these very serious issues matters. Does the Minister, Deputy Burton, not agree that he should come to the House to exonerate the whistleblower and withdraw the misleading remarks he made about his not co-operating with a Garda inquiry? All of that is wrong, and if the Minister cannot see that it is a significant indictment of her and her judgment.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I will respond, if the Deputy is interested in a resolution of these issues. Why are we interested in a resolution of these issues and why ought they to be important to Fianna Fáil and the Opposition, as well as to the Government? It is because they go to the heart of the matter in respect of the security of the State and individuals in the State, which is looked after by An Garda Síochána. Second, in a modern democracy, the Garda Síochána or policing authority must be overseen by an appropriate oversight commission. I have read to the House, at length, the appointment, under very broad and detailed terms of inquiry-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is a different issue.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Hold on, Deputy.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We did not raise that issue this morning.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is answering on an issue about which she was not asked.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy came here this morning-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The only reason the Minister is answering on that matter is to avoid answering the question she was asked.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputies, please. There is no point in being sorry. This is not a shouting match. It is a serious issue. The Minister has one minute to answer. Will she please do so and we can move on to the next speaker?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy sent a letter to the Taoiseach last night. I have just told him in all seriousness, although he does not appear to be able to take it on board-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Get to the point.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----that the Taoiseach is considering that letter. That is a proper and appropriate response.

Second, the Deputy has now waved another blizzard of paper. One would think one was in a snowstorm the way he is producing paper at this point.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is trivialising it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy has produced more paper and said that he made it available this morning. I have not received it. I take the Deputy sufficiently seriously that I will do him the courtesy of reading the material when I receive it and have the opportunity to do so. I wish to say to the other Members of the House that if there is more information or material, it is extraordinarily important to bring it forward. The Deputy has only brought that material forward this morning.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will you take your tablets, please? I call Deputy Pearse Doherty.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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We have reached the eleventh day of a scandal in which the Minister, Deputy Shatter, has been at the epicentre. First, there was the alleged bugging of the GSOC offices. Then there was the rubbishing of those claims as baseless innuendo by the Minister. He misled the Dáil last Tuesday regarding the report he received from GSOC. Now, there is new information in the public domain as a result of documents which have now gone to the Taoiseach - it is new information to the Taoiseach but not to the Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter - that a whistleblower within the Garda has used every opportunity to bring to the attention of the appropriate authorities misconduct, malpractice and destruction of documents within the Garda Síochána regarding serious abuses up to the highest level of murder. The Minister says the Taoiseach is looking at the letter he received yesterday, but does she acknowledge that the Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter, received this complaint in 2012? Can she acknowledge that the Minister, Deputy Shatter, spoke to the Garda Commissioner and furnished a three-letter response to the confidential recipient, Mr. Connolly?

Mr. Connolly's is the only head that has rolled in this scandal. Why was it his head that rolled? In the GSOC bugging controversy, the fact that the whistleblowers were rubbished, the penalty points debacle and the issue of the cover-up of alleged malpractice within the Garda, why was it Mr. Connolly's head that rolled? It was clear from the justice spokesperson on "Morning Ireland" this morning that it is because he made derogatory comments about the Minister, Deputy Shatter. That goes to the crux of the matter. It is about protecting the Minister and the Garda Commissioner at all costs. Forget about the alleged bugging of GSOC and the fact that a whistleblower has tried to bring this evidence into the public domain and to the proper authorities for many years. The head of Mr. Connolly, who made comments about Deputy Shatter, had to roll.

Let us look at the comments he made, some of which have been put on the public record.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy's time is up. Will he put his questions?

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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He said the Garda Commissioner had made a serious error of judgment and that he knew, or should have known, about the malpractice. He also goes on to suggest that the Garda Commissioner should stand aside. He also said:

I think the Commissioner has a case to answer. I think you have the evidence they destroyed you. A man has only got his reputation. You were just standing up for what is right if you ask me.
The appropriate thing to do as a result of the shattering of confidence in sections of the Garda Síochána, right up to the level of Garda Commissioner, is not for the Taoiseach to start studying these documents but to immediately set up an independent commission of investigation to find out what happened. The Minister, unfortunately, is in the dock because he did not respond appropriately to these allegations in 2012.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Obviously, the Deputy failed to notice that yesterday the Government established an independent inquiry under one of the most highly regarded retired judges in the country, with the terms of reference drawn up by the Government on the advice of the Attorney General.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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If the Deputy is interested, as he claims, in having a functioning Garda Síochána which protects the security and the people of the State and which is, importantly, overseen by an ombudsman commission that can carry out its job, the Government has just commissioned such an independent inquiry to be carried out. If the Deputy wishes to rubbish the establishment of an independent inquiry, as he is suggesting, under one of the most respected retired judges in the State, that is up to Sinn Féin and Fianna Fáil. I believe they are wrong. The important issue for the State and for both Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin ought to be that we have a Garda Síochána which functions with the full support and confidence of the public. The gardaí are the people who put their lives in danger every day for our citizens-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, Deputies.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and the Deputy should show some concern that the Garda Síochána should be fully supported in the State and, second, that the Garda Síochána should be properly overseen by the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. That is precisely what the Government has set out to do, having given an independent power of inquiry to one of the most respected retired judges in the State.

I wish to make a point to Sinn Féin and other Opposition Deputies if they have more material. I understand that Deputy Martin met the Garda whistleblower last weekend, which is about five days ago.

He chose to send the material to the Taoiseach last night. Sinn Féin might have more material. In the interests of-----

12:20 pm

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It was a little quicker than two years.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please be quiet.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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This is not about politicking but about the Garda Síochána commanding the respect and support of every citizen and party. It is also about having a proper oversight commission for the Garda. That is what we set out to do. Last night the Minister for Justice and Equality addressed the committee for about four hours.

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Not on this issue.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Opposition, including Sinn Féin, now seems to have a problem with the Taoiseach taking time to have a look at documents.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No one mentioned that.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is the correct response.

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister had two years in which to address it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I do not want to suggest one would make a political football out of something as important as the Garda Síochána and the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, but an important and appropriate mechanism has been established and it is to report back within a relatively short period. That is the proper way to do it.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry, but the Deputy cannot make a point of order during Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy cannot do so during Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I wish to draw your attention to a very serious and unacceptable remark made in this House by Deputy John Halligan.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Deputy cannot raise that matter during Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry, but I did not hear anything.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It was made yesterday by Deputy Finian McGrath who cast a slur on a member of the Judiciary. I call on you to ask the Deputy to withdraw the remark.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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There are no points of order during Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am trying to manage a session and I did not hear what was said.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Repeat the remark outside the House.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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If the Ceann Comhairle did not hear what was said, I ask him to check with the Clerk. A very serious and unacceptable remark was made, and not for the first time.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will Members, please, be quiet?

Photo of Simon HarrisSimon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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If the Deputy is so brave, repeat it.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Deputy should not wag his finger.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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A charge was made against a member of the Judiciary by Deputy John Halligan and it was made earlier by Deputy Finian McGrath.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy, please, resume his seat?

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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What did I say?

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should check the record of what he said yesterday.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Deputy must have-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Pearse Doherty should, please, put his question.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Chair not to let this matter go without a reply.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will check the record.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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I am sure there will be plenty of opportunities to correct the record, including by the Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter, who made a complete and inappropriate slur against the whistleblower in October-----

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That is not true.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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-----and has still failed to correct the public record.

Photo of Charles FlanaganCharles Flanagan (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy knows that is not the full story.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister should be informed that the review set up has nothing at all to do with the confidential recipient, the transcript of that conversation or the file the Taoiseach has received. I am sure the Minister, Deputy Joan Burton, is aware of this and, if she is not, she must make herself aware of it. I am sure that what the Government is trying to do is to confuse the public, if it can do so, by stating it is dealing with the matter appropriately.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is like a scatter-gun.

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister, Deputy Joan Burton, asked us for additional information. We have no additional information, but she should ask the Minister for Justice and Equality because in 2012 he received a document which showed there was widespread abuse in small sections of the Garda in connection with various serious matters. He failed to investigate them at an appropriate level. He said-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy, please, put his supplementary question, as he is over time?

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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The person who had the full information, the confidential recipient, said the Commissioner should be asked to stand aside as he had a vested interest. He said he should stand aside during the investigation as he was investigating himself again. What is required for public confidence to be restored in the Garda at all levels is an independent commission of investigation. The Government cannot hide from the issue. It is not a new issue; it is something that was presented to the Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter, two years ago. Why does the Government deem it appropriate, after all of the allegations of corruption, the destruction of material, cover-ups, malpractice, cases going missing up to the level of murder-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy, please, resume his seat?

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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-----alleged bugging within GSOC, and inappropriate or misleading comments being made in the Dáil, that the only person held accountable in all of the scandals in the past 11 days is the confidential recipient who, as Deputy Charles Flanagan outlined, had to go because he had made comments that were considered inappropriate against the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter? Given the gravity of the allegations, does the Minister, Deputy Joan Burton, believe there is a need for an independent commission of investigation and that the Taoiseach is not the appropriate person to investigate his own Minister's conduct in this matter?

Photo of Arthur SpringArthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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We need Judge Smithwick back again.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Minister should be allowed to respond without interruption.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is an extremely confused contribution. To start with-----

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Minister listen to herself? She look at the video afterwards.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister should get the transcript.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Everyone in the country understands it, except the Minister.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Would Members mind not interrupting?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Pearse Doherty has thrown out a whole series of events and happenings over a protracted period and at the end of asked for a commission of inquiry. In case he missed the news yesterday, I draw his attention to the announcement that the Government has appointed a High Court judge, Mr. John Cooke, to conduct-----

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister might as well sit down. That is a pathetic response which disrespects those who want transparency in the system.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy, please, allow a response to be given to his question?

Photo of Pearse DohertyPearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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On a point of order-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, Deputy.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mario Rosenstock will have a field day.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Government has appointed Mr. Cooke to conduct an independent inquiry, the terms of reference for which were agreed to by the Government on the advice of the Attorney General. The judge was consulted on the terms of reference and has agreed to them.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Hold on, please.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Minister should please respond.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In terms of the Dáil and Opposition parties, there is a level of common agreement across the House on what we want-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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We want the Minister to go.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We want the Garda Síochána to carry out its duties-----

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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We want new terms of reference.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----in protecting the people of the State and to enjoy the confidence of the public. I know that view is not shared by everybody in the House.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The terms of reference do not include what has been raised today.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should, please, stay quiet.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is a priority in any democracy.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is not a priority.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are five minutes over time.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is not included in the terms of reference.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Second, independent oversight by the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission is absolutely important. The matters to which Deputy Pearse Doherty referred - he was making comments about transcripts in the public media and discussions various people had had-----

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has had them for two years.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----in terms of all of the material and documentation available and the power of the retired judge to hear evidence and call and speak to those involved, are all covered by what he has laid out.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is not.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Why then does Sinn Féin want another independent inquiry?

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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For God's sake, the Minister signed off on it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Will Sinn Féin Members not let the judge proceed with his work?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Minister listen to me? Will she, please, resume her seat? We are six and a half minutes over time.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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On a point of order-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We will now get the point of view of a Government backbencher.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy, please, resume his seat? There is no point of order during Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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A remark was made that cast aspersions on the competence of the Judiciary to carry out an inquiry.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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If the Deputy does not resume his seat, I will suspend the sitting.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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If Members of this House have no confidence in the Judiciary, they should say so and we can debate the matter.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will suspend the sitting if the Deputy does not resume his seat.

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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The matter should be debated in the House.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Deputy hear me?

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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All of the Opposition Members who are contesting-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will the Deputy, please, respect the Chair?

Photo of Ciarán LynchCiarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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-----or casting aspersions-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy will find himself outside the Chamber. He is the Chairman of a committee and knows that one should respect the Chair. If I stand up, he should sit down. I will not tell him a second time.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Maith an fear.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That applies to all Members. I am sick of what is going on here today.

Photo of Patrick NultyPatrick Nulty (Dublin West, Independent)
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We are sick of it every day.

Photo of Eric ByrneEric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Repeat the allegation.

Photo of Séamus HealySéamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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Last year marked the 100th anniversary of the 1913 Lock-out, a struggle for workers' rights. The previous year marked the 100th anniversary of the foundation of the all-Ireland Labour Party by James Connolly and Jim Larkin in Clonmel. In a few short years we will remember the sacrifice of James Connolly and his comrades in 1916. It is more than 125 years since Michael Davitt initiated the Land League campaign against rack-renting landlords.

All of these were movements for the rights, freedom, independence and self-determination of the Irish people. Today the Government is prepared to sell the roofs over the heads of 13,000 Irish people to the modern equivalent of rack-renting landlords, foreign vulture capitalists. A total of 13,000 Irish Nationwide mortgage holders face the appalling vista of their mortgages being sold to these foreign vulture capitalists. These companies are not subject to the Irish regulations put in place to protect distressed mortgage holders. The mortgages are expected to be sold at huge knockdown discounts. Performing mortgages will be discounted up to 30% while distressed mortgages will have discounts in excess of 50%. These companies will be able to squeeze Irish Nationwide mortgage holders, increase interest rates, repossess homes and make obscene profits. The mortgage holders are being thrown to the wolves by the Government.

12:30 pm

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Séamus HealySéamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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They are not even being allowed to bid for their own mortgages.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Deputy and ask him to put a question.

Photo of Séamus HealySéamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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Media reports, rightly in my view, have described this sell-off as pure financial treason and an act of outrageous vandalism. Will the Government reverse the decision to sell these mortgages? Will the Government instruct the IBRC liquidator, as it is entitled to do in law, to stop these sales?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Special liquidators have been appointed to oversee the liquidation of the IBRC. This is in law for the benefit of all the creditors of the institution, including the State. The special liquidators, as with any liquidator, must maximise the return, and to do otherwise would leave it open to legal challenge. The process involves the special liquidators conducting a valuation and sale process for all the assets of the IBRC, including the residential mortgage portfolio. They are obliged to ensure they maximise the price obtained.

I understand and respect the Deputy's concern for the people who have mortgages with the institution. A number of such sales have been carried out and quite a number of Deputies have asked this question of the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance. In those cases a number of the purchasers, although they are outside the State, have adhered to the code of conduct and the guidelines set down by the Central Bank.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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What about Danske Bank?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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This is exactly what I would expect to happen in this case. Unfortunately, because of the collapse of the banks and what Fianna Fáil bequeathed to us, we have a situation in which quite a number of financial institutions have collapsed.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Government is in charge.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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To get the economy working again fully - we have started the recovery - we must sort out the issues arising from liquidation. I am very confident the mortgage holders will find that, as has happened in previous cases in this respect, the advice and codes of conduct established by the Central Bank will be adopted. Nothing else makes sense, if I may say so, for the purchasers of the mortgages, whoever they may be and whether they are from Ireland or from abroad, because at the end of the day they will want to recover their money. If, as the Deputy suggests, they will buy some of the mortgages at a discount, it will make sense for them to treat their customers very well because it will ensure they recover the money they invest in the deal. This is what has happened in Ireland and other jurisdictions where unfortunately there has been this type of bank collapse followed by liquidation of financial institutions.

Photo of Séamus HealySéamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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Quite clearly, these families are being thrown to the wolves by the Government, because that is what the reply means. It means the Government is reversing the gains made by Michael Davitt and James Connolly, who called for the reconquest of Ireland from foreign landlords and foreign capitalists. The Government is restoring the modern equivalent of the rack-renting foreign landlord and providing them with the modern equivalent of the battering ram. Will the Government extend Irish legal protections to all mortgage holders? Will it allow householders to bid for these mortgages? Will the Government allow the special liquidator, KPMG, and its advisers, PricewaterhouseCoopers, both companies that were highly complicit in the banking crisis, to decide the future of Irish families? The Tánaiste and leader of the Labour Party accused the former Taoiseach, Brian Cowen, of economic treason regarding the bailout of Anglo Irish Bank. The Government is knowingly prepared to sell the roofs over the heads of Irish families to these international vulture capitalists. Is this not also economic treason?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The economic treason was probably by the people who brought in the bank guarantee resulting in the disastrous collapse-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Minister's colleagues in government voted for it.

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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The Government extended it.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----of a number of banking institutions, as happens, unfortunately, in banking collapses. It gives none of us any pleasure to have to recall very sad history of the party opposite when it ruined the economy and the livelihoods and jobs of more than 250,000 people.

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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You could do with recalling your own history.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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What about the Labour Party?

Photo of Barry CowenBarry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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And you turned it around. You are doing a great job.

Photo of Séamus HealySéamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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Will the Government allow the people to bid for their own mortgages?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Do you mind? Thank you.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am perfectly aware - I understand and I sympathise with people-----

Photo of Dara CallearyDara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Crocodile tears.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----who are affected by the fact they took out a mortgage, maybe 15 or 20 years ago, with a solid-as-a-rock building society, perhaps specialising in mortgages for teachers or gardaí, but suddenly all of the certainty collapsed with the bank guarantee.

Photo of Séamus HealySéamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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Will the Government protect these mortgage holders?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What the Government is doing is sorting out the legacy we inherited.

Photo of Michael McGrathMichael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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You are selling them down the Swanee.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Department of Finance is aware of this. We have two previous examples of groups of mortgages being sold-----

Photo of Michael McGrathMichael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is unenforceable. That is the point.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and where the interest of the mortgage holders has been treated absolutely consistently with the code of conduct and the other advices of the Central Bank. This is what I anticipate will happen again this time.

Photo of Bernard DurkanBernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.