Dáil debates
Wednesday, 18 July 2012
Leaders' Questions
10:30 am
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Last week I highlighted the farcical situation in the Department of Health and in the health services generally, with health officials sitting on the board of the HSE for very tense meetings in which, acting as health officials one day and HSE board members another day, they are not in a position to agree with each other, and a serious budget overrun which was at â¬250 million by the end of May and is projected to run to â¬500 million by the end of the year. All of that was a direct result of the Minister's decision to get rid of the HSE board without putting anything in its place, which created a significant vacuum at the heart of decision-making in the health services. The results will be serious for those on the front line and will be serious for patients by the end of the year.
The CEO of the HSE argued cogently to this House and to the Oireachtas committees that the Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, did not fulfil his side of the Estimate arrangements. I described the Estimate as dishonest, and I hold by that. Quite simply, there were figures of â¬141 million for revenue generation from private insurers and â¬100 million from drug pricing, as well as a figure for agency staff, which were not based on valid assumptions. The legislation for private insurance has not yet been produced although the session is nearly finished. It is a complete mess and it is unacceptable.
This morning we learn that the CEO of the HSE is to resign. He is a highly regarded individual with considerable integrity who was placed in an impossible position by the Minister on the budget, management and organisation of the HSE. Has he been shoved out by the Minister?
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Of course he has.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can the Taoiseach confirm this morning why the CEO of the HSE is leaving?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin had a long tirade there. He has been asking questions about the production of the HSE governance Bill for some time. It was cleared yesterday by Cabinet and will be published today. That Bill will establish seven directorates dealing with hospital care, primary care, mental health, social care, child and family services, public health and corporate shared services. There will be a much clearer line of accountability in respect of moneys voted by the Oireachtas for the provision of health services, with particular emphasis on the patient and on the front line. We have made the point on many occasions in the past that the HSE, because of its structure and the way it was initially set up, created a lack of clarity about where the voted moneys were being spent and how effective that spending was. The May report produced by the HSE clearly shows overruns in some areas. Some of these are because of increased hospital activity, increased throughput of patients in accident and emergency departments and so on.
I understand that for some time the chief executive, Mr. Cathal Magee, has been discussing with the Department of Health the intended changes to the structure of the HSE in the context of the governance Bill. Having considered the new structure that is to be established, Mr. Magee indicated that it is his intention to depart when the transition takes place. I thank him for his service as a person of integrity and commitment. The answer to Deputy Martin's question is in the negative.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Whether the Taoiseach accepts it or not, the current management of the health service is a shambles.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin hopes.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The deficit at Limerick Regional Hospital is â¬9 million.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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There was no one in Fianna Fáil to take it.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Settle down, please.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The deficit of Galway University Hospital is â¬7 million, Drogheda is at â¬6 million, Beaumont is at â¬8 million, Tallaght is at â¬7.5 million, the Mater is at â¬5 million, Cork University Hospital is at â¬5 million and St. Vincent's hospital is at â¬6 million. I am not the only one saying this.
Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Where is the â¬250 million? What is funny about that?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Everybody out there in the health service is saying the situation is not sustainable. We have already seen the high-profile resignation of the CEO of the VHI because of disagreements with the Minister. We have a volatile Minister, and senior personnel have left the health service because of his behaviour and the manner in which he deals with people.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Could we have a question, please?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The exit of the CEO of the HSE is being masked by a re-labelling of positions. It is being labelled as some sort of fundamental redrawing of the architecture of health, which fools nobody.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Martin is over time.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The bottom line is this. The Government is running out of time. It prepared a false Estimate for health services.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Would Deputy Martin please ask his question?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is without question that the Minister did so. I put it to the Taoiseach that the Minister put the CEO of the HSE in an impossible position 12 months ago when he abolished the board of the HSE and established the Secretary General as chairman of the board.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Does Deputy Martin want change or the status quo?
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Without question, he is being shoved out of that position in an unacceptable manner by the Minister.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Government is wrecking the disability service as well. There are 220 young people looking for a service.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is utterly hypocritical of Deputy Martin to get up there and say-----
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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That is the reality. Talk to the parents.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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There are people looking for services and they are laughing on the Government benches. It is a disgrace. They should hang their heads in shame.
Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Deputy McGrath was Bertie's mudguard.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is completely hypocritical of Deputy Martin to stand up there and say that the chief executive of the HSE is being pushed by the Minister and in the next sentence say that the management of the HSE is in a shambles.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not say that; I said the health services.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy cannot have it both ways.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I can, because the Minister took control of it 12 months ago.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Magee for his integrity and for his commitment to his job.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister took control of it 12 months ago, he brought in a false Estimate and he is getting rid of staff left, right and centre.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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He made his decision after discussions in respect of the new structure for the HSE, which I outlined for the Deputy.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The seven directorates will bring clarity and accountability to the spending of public moneys so that they are spent effectively in delivering care and attention to the patients who are at the centre of this.
Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Those hospitals have serious deficits. All of the hospitals are in crisis. Suppliers are not being paid.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Martin is like a wind-up machine. Would he ever hold down, please?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A Fianna Fáil-led Government set up the HSE.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They said it would deliver world-class services. That is the situation.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Adams.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Government is wrecking the health service.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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They signed up to it.
Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin is suffering from end of term jibber-jabber.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have called Deputy Adams.
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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How many bankers has the Minister locked up today?
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Order, please. That includes you, Deputy Kelleher. I call Deputy Adams.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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He is going to take the wedding rings off the ordinary people.
Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There will be a few taking a walk if they do not give Deputy Adams the floor. I thank Members for their support.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Government is showing complete disregard for the concerns of Gaeltacht communities and Irish language organisations by pushing a highly deficient Gaeltacht Bill through the Oireachtas. Tá easpa muinÃne ag pobail Gaeltachta agus ag daoine a dhéanann a gcuid oibre tré Ghaeilge i mBille na Gaeltachta. The Government has refused to hold proper consultations with Irish language organisations and Gaeltacht communities or to accept any amendments - not one amendment has been accepted from Sinn Féin or any of the other parties. As the Taoiseach knows, this Bill will strip Gaeltacht communities of their right to democratic representation on Ãdarás na Gaeltachta. The Government has also rejected any role for the Irish language commissioner in overseeing the various plans envisaged. This is despite the fact the office of An Coimisinéir Teanga is widely acknowledged as being the most effective and appropriate in this regard.
The Bill puts the bulk of responsibility on voluntary organisations and increases responsibilities for an unelected údarás and other local organisations but refuses to accept that any additional resources are required. It is being rushed through to avoid an údarás election. It should be withdrawn because it is bad legislation. Will the Government withdraw this Bill, go back to the drawing board and come back with a Bill more in keeping with the 20-year strategy for the language?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Tá a fhios mhaith ag an Teachta Adams gurb é an t-Aire Stáit, an Teachta McGinley, an duine is fearr sa Teach a bhfuil Gaeilge aige le blianta fada. Tá suim iontach domhain ag an Aire Stáit i bhforbairt na teanga.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Nà hà sin an cheist.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Sin atá i gceist le cur in áit an údaráis nua agus leis na pleananna agus an struchtúr a leagfar amach ó thaobh fhorbairt na teanga de. Nà hamháin go mbeidh suim ag bord an údaráis nua sa Ghaeltacht, eatartha siúd a cuirfear ar an mbord ag na comhairlà contae agus na baill a n-ainmneofar ag Aire féin.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Nà bheidh cead ag daoine vótáil ar na baill sin.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Ach is é atá i gceist ná go bhfuil Gaeltachtaà na tÃre ag fáil bháis agus go bhfuil laghdú tagtha ar lÃon na ndaoine a labhraÃonn Gaeilge go laethúil. Sin atá i gceist ag an Aire Stáit maidir leis an údarás nua seo. Beidh brú ar gach uile Gaeltacht a plean agus a struchtúr féin a leagadh amach ó thaobh fhorbairt na teanga de. Forbairt ár nGaeilge dúchais atá i gceist.
Nà cóir don Teachta a rá nach bhfuil suim ag an Aire Stáit-----
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----atá ag caint anseo ar son mhuintir na Gaeltachta agus ar son ár dteanga dúchais le 30 bliain.
Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Tá an t-Aire Stáit as láthair inniu. Tá sé imithe.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Tá a fhios ag an Teachta go bhfuil cinneadh déanta ag an Rialtas nach dtofar an t-údarás mar a rinneadh le blianta anuas. Sin an fáth go bhfuil orainn an Bille seo a chur trÃd an Dáil roimh sos an tsamhraidh. Sin an fáth go bhfuil orainn an dÃospóireacht a chrÃochnú Déardaoin.
Nà chóir don Teachta a rá nach raibh dÃospóireacht nó cainteanna ag an Aire Stáit le muintir na Gaeltachta nó le daoine thart faoin tÃr. Tá sé ag taisteal ó Ghaeltacht go Gaeltacht an t-am ar fad ag déileáil leis an gcinneadh seo, i dtreo is go mbeidh plean soiléir ag gach uile Ghaeltacht maidir le forbairt na teanga, nà hamháin sa Ghaeltacht mar atá sà faoi láthair ach ins an am atá le teacht.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Nà dúirt mé rud ar bith faoin Aire Stáit. Nà dúirt mé nach raibh suim aige sa cheist. Creidim go bhfuil an t-Aire Stáit mÃcheart. Nà bheidh muintir na Gaeltachta ábalta vótail ar bhord an údaráis. Quango eile a bhéas ann i ndiaidh an phróiseis seo.
AontaÃm leis an Taoiseach go ndearna an Stát teip ar an dteanga ó bunaÃodh é. Is à sin ár dteanga atá á labhairt sa tÃr le 20,000 bliain anuas. There were 250,000 Irish language speakers in the Gaeltacht when this State was founded and there are now only 25,000, so there is obviously a failure. It is not just that the language is dying; the language is being killed off, not least by bad legislation like this. It flies in the face of expert advice. It also flies very particularly in the face of the 20-year strategy, and I have met the Minister of State to discuss this. The vast majority of Irish language groups in the State are calling for this Bill to be suspended so amendments can be introduced to fix what they perceive to be problems.
Is there not something wrong when a Government does not accept one single amendment, not just from Sinn Féin but from all of the other parties? Tá sé de chumhacht ag an Aire Stáit an rud ceart a dhéanamh. Tá a fhios sin ag an Taoiseach. Why does the Government not bring in a one-line Bill to postpone the údarás elections for six months? This Bill is being rushed because the údarás elections are due in September. Why not suspend the elections for six months and then allow for a more detailed discussion on all the issues involved?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The time has come to deal with this. The Government has made a clear decision about the structure and nature of the new údarás and what its function, role and responsibility will be. I accept Deputy Adams's assertion that he does not cast any slight upon the Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, who has had a passion for the Irish language from childhood and since he came into the House. I also accept the Deputy's observation that we have not measured up in terms of having our language flourish as it should. It is true that the number of daily speakers has declined seriously; however, it is also true that many more people have a smattering of the language now than was the case previously, although perhaps they do not have the opportunity to use it often.
It is also very obvious that the urbanisation of Ireland has had a direct impact, with 55% of people now living in the greater urban areas. In this city, i gcathair Ãtha Cliath, tá i bhfad nÃos mó Gaeilge á labhairt anois ná mar a bhà le blianta fada.
Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Tá nÃos mó gaelscoileanna i mBéal Feirsde na mar atá i mBaile Ãtha Cliath.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Tá nÃos mó daoine a bhfuil Gaeilge acu sa chathair seo faoi láthair, agus a labhrann à go minic nuair a bhÃonn an seans acu, ná i gcuid des na Gaeltachtaà le blianta anuas. I notice that in Dublin people do want to avail of the opportunity to speak the language. What the Minister of State, Deputy McGinley, is doing here is to put in place a structure under which we have clear plans from areas that are called Gaeltachtaà about what they want to do to preserve, strengthen and develop the language in the time ahead.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams will have an interest in that when he goes to Donegal on his laethanta saoire.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We are not withdrawing the Bill; we are getting on with it. There is no point in putting this off any longer. The Deputy asked for the Bill to be withdrawn and for a delay to the údarás elections. I do not want any difficulty or lack of clarity about this. The Minister of State is following through on the Government decision. We will set up the new údarás with its new functions and get on with it in the interests of the language and those who wish to speak it.
Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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It was not so long ago that the Government was promising to break away from the old and begin a new politics. Reform, transparency and fairness were the talk of the day, and we all know how that has worked out. While the extravagant pay rates for special advisers are constantly breaching the pay cap, cuts to social welfare payments and indirect taxes have ravaged the low-income people of this country. Jobs are as sparse now as they ever were, while more and more people are being forced to emigrate to make a living.
It seems the poor are becoming poorer while the rich just keep getting richer. In fact, the gap between rich and poor in Ireland is constantly widening, with disposable income for the least well off falling by over 18% while income for the most well off has increased by over 4%. The top 10% of the population receives almost 14 times more disposable income than the poorest 10%. Surely the Taoiseach will agree there is something profoundly wrong in that.
We also have a situation in which, as a result of the reduced rates of social welfare payments, young people who are made homeless are left trapped in emergency accommodation because they cannot get the assistance that will allow them to make a life for themselves. This could be easily resolved, and addressing it would actually reduce the cost to the State rather than costing money. This is yet another group which has been failed by the Government as a result of its attack on the vulnerable. It is clear from this that the Taoiseach and his Government continue to make questionable decisions that result in a lopsided distribution of wealth when so many people are struggling on low incomes to make ends meet. As we move into the budget preparation season, will the Taoiseach pledge that the upcoming budget will not include further cuts for those who have suffered so much already? Will he commit to equality-proofing the budget measures to determine their impact on people on very low incomes?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will not comment on what the Government will do in respect of the budget to be prepared for 2013 but in budget 2012, the Government renegotiated the memorandum of understanding with the troika and reversed the minimum wage cut introduced by the previous Government. It also renegotiated the universal social charge with the troika, and that liability was removed from 330,000 people. In addition, it did not increase income tax, and there was no cut in the basic rates of social welfare payments.
We face a challenging time ahead, and the Government will apply itself to that in meeting the targets we have set out and the ceilings that have been put in place and will make its decisions based on being as fair as possible. Those who can contribute should and will contribute to enable our country to get out of the programme we are in and retrieve our economic independence.
In some of the key measures in last year's budget, capital gains tax, capital acquisitions tax and deposit interest retention tax were increased to 30%. The tax-free thresholds for CAT have been reduced to take account of the fall in asset values in recent years. It is not true to say, therefore, that the Government did not act in respect of the lower paid and the more vulnerable. We are very conscious of people on the housing lists, those who are homeless, and those in lower paid positions.
The priority of the Government must be to reduce the live register figures substantially in terms of the long-term unemployed. That is, in part, the reason the agenda from Europe has changed. There is now an interest in a growth agenda, which is why the European Investment Bank representatives were here recently. That is the reason the Government was able to introduce a stimulus package yesterday of â¬2 billion, which will not sort out our problems and will not take effect for some time but shows the increased interest on the part of the European Investment Bank in participating in a growth agenda for this country that will create jobs, boost the local economy, and deal with some of the issues the Deputy mentioned. As far as budget 2013 is concerned, the Government will apply itself to that in the months ahead.
Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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For the first time in its history, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul has described the position of low-income families as critical. That is as a result of the budgets the Taoiseach has spoken about, and measures such as increasing the minimum wage have not made any difference or had any real impact. In fact, inequality is widening as a result of the budgets the Taoiseach's Government is introducing. We have the fourth lowest tax take, as a percentage of GDP, in the European Union. If the Taoiseach only made the decision to move up to the average, he would be doing a great deal to ensure that the people on the lowest incomes and those who are struggling the most in this society would not carry the burden. It is not too much to ask people such as those of us in this House and other high earners to contribute more and pay a fairer share. That is what the Taoiseach's budget should do, and that is the reason I ask that he equality-proof his budget to ensure it does not increase the inequality in society. That is something the Taoiseach should be able to do, and I ask him to do that for budget 2013.
Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.
John HalliganEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can take it that the Government, in making its decisions about budget 2013, which will be challenging indeed, will do so in the interests of fairness, ensuring that waste is eliminated and that those who can contribute do contribute.
I note the Deputy's comment that people in this House should be asked to contribute more. The Deputy might start by paying the household charge.