Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

noting:

that the processing time of welfare applications, particularly jobseekers supports, is too long with some individuals and families waiting up to 16 weeks for their claim to be processed, and with potential delays of many months in processing appeals;

official HSE figures which show an 85% increase in the number of requests for emergency welfare assistance over the past two years, while the number of community welfare staff has remained unchanged;

the unacceptable delay in recruiting additional staff to deal with the dramatic increase in welfare claims;

the 35% increase in the number of people seeking support from the Money Advice and Budgeting Service (MABS);

that the Legal Aid Board has a function to provide legal advice and representation to people with debt problems;

that there are currently more than 9,616 people in receipt of mortgage interest supplement, an increase of 134% (4,111) over the number in receipt of payment at the end of 2007;

that the new code on mortgage arrears does not sufficiently protect borrowers and fails to include any sanctions for breaches of the code; and

that problems experienced in repaying debt are not limited to mortgage debt, but that the recently unemployed face difficulties repaying a series of debts including: household bills, credit card repayments, car loans, personal loans, hire purchase agreements and so on;

considering:

that 276 people were jailed last year for failing to repay debt, many of which were jailed for failing to repay loans to credit providers, and received an average sentence of 27 days and served an average of 20 days;

that this Government has not taken any steps to update or reform the current system of debt enforcement which is ineffective in collecting debt, is extremely costly to taxpayers and wasteful of Court, Judge and Garda time;

that unlike many other EU countries, Ireland has no system of regulation of debt collectors; and

pending the completion of the Law Reform Commission Report, that there is a need for urgent measures to be taken, as set out below;

calls on the Government to:

immediately increase the number of Community Welfare Officers, Social Welfare and Social Welfare Appeals Office staff by redeploying staff within the HSE and the Department of Social and Family Affairs;

encourage MABS and the Legal Aid Board to co-operate more closely so that they can deal with the surge in people seeking advice and support for debt difficulties;

expand the role of MABS into debt settlement and mortgage renegotiation, which will take less time, is less expensive to the taxpayer and offers a more integrated and effective approach when dealing with consumer debt;

introduce legislation to regulate debt collection and to ensure that debt collectors are registered and vetted; and

review legislation including the Enforcement of Court Orders Acts 1926 and 1940 and the Bankruptcy Act 1988.

I wish to share time with Deputies Noonan, O'Dowd, Ring, Connaughton, Doyle and Joe Carey.

I welcome the opportunity to introduce this motion on behalf of the Fine Gael Party. It is a timely non-contentious motion which seeks to ensure that our social welfare system is responsive to the needs of the people it is supposed to serve and that it is adequately staffed to carry out this function. We are seeking the creation of an alternative dispute resolution system for those who find themselves in debt, together with greater co-operation between the money advice and budgeting service, MABS, and the Legal Aid Board in order that both organisations might deal with the surge of people seeking advice and support with debt difficulty. We are also seeking to have the role of MABS expanded in order that it will be sufficiently resourced to allow it to deal with — through the further training of staff — debt settlement and mortgage negotiation for which, unfortunately, there is a growing need.

Fine Gael is further seeking the introduction of legislation to regulate debt collection and to ensure that debt collectors will be registered and vetted. In addition, legislation such as the enforcement of court orders Acts and the bankruptcy Acts must be reviewed and amended to take account of the current climate.

I am disappointed with, but not surprised by, the Government's amendment to the motion. The amendment displays the typically unimaginative everything-is-all-right, head-in-the-sand approach we have come to expect from the Government. I do not believe anyone will deny that over-indebtedness is a serious problem in the lives of many Irish people, although the amendment prompts me to question whether the Government has any idea of the extent of the problem.

During the past decade, the personal household component of private sector credit has risen to record levels in Ireland and in many other countries. In 2007, the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland admitted that the gross indebtedness of the household sector in Ireland — before account is taken of its financial net worth — is high by comparison with that which obtains in other euro area countries. In 1997, personal sector credit as a percentage of disposable income was in the region of 60%. Ten years later, this figure had risen to well over 175%.

Many people have a variety of debts. These include mortgages, personal loans, credit cards, car loans, hire purchase agreements, household debts, store cards, etc. While this was a matter of concern in times of high employment, it is of even greater concern now. The downturn in the economy and the increase in unemployment has placed a massive strain on Irish families. People are losing their jobs, are unable to repay loans to a variety of institutions and are under severe pressure.

The delays in the processing of social welfare applications and the subsequent delays in appeals are adding further to the strain. While families are awaiting the processing of their applications or of appeals, they often find themselves being plunged further into debt, with their mortgage bills unpaid and their electricity, gas and car loans mounting as they struggle to pay for their day-to-day household and living expenses.

It must be remembered that one third of the cost of houses in recent years went on taxation. For many individuals and couples, one third of the mortgages they are struggling to pay off went directly to the Exchequer. Many of these people's homes are no longer worth what they paid for them and they are struggling to pay off loans they took out during a building bubble from which they obtained no benefit. If a house is repossessed by the State, these people will be obliged to seek rent supplement and to return to their local authority housing lists.

There are currently more than 9,600 people in receipt of mortgage interest supplement. This represents an increase of 134% on the figure that obtained at the end of 2007. The Government is in the process of reviewing the mortgage interest supplement. However, I am unclear as to what is the aim of this review and I am gravely concerned that — like many previous reviews — it is designed to make the supplement more difficult rather than easier to obtain. There are a number of serious difficulties regarding the way in which the scheme operates at present. Claimants are not eligible for mortgage interest supplement if their mortgages are considered to be too expensive. However, there seems to be huge discretion across the country with regard to what is "too expensive". This raises questions in respect of the uniformity of the system. In addition, the scheme ignores the fact that a mortgage may have been affordable when the person who took it out was in employment. If a mortgage is granted on the basis of two incomes and one income is lost through unemployment, illness or disability, the household will still not be eligible for mortgage interest supplement because there is still one income coming in. That people have mortgage arrears seems to be irrelevant when this criterion is put into operation.

There are also extreme difficulties for people who were self-employed but who are now unemployed, particularly in the context of producing up-to-date accounts and the fact that the previous year's accounts are generally taken into consideration. There are many people who were working last year and who had steady incomes but who literally do not have an income at present. These individuals find it extremely difficult to access the supplement. Unbelievably, there is a lack of valid data. As the Minister previously admitted, the Department of Family and Social Affairs does not collect figures regarding the number of people who want to apply for mortgage interest supplement. It is, therefore, extremely difficult to judge the fairness of the system.

Why does the Department not collect such data? I am aware from speaking to a number of community welfare officers that they retain this information. What kind of system allows us to pay a supplement to some and refuse it to others? Why is it not possible to examine the objective criteria that are being used to decide who is paid and who is refused? The system must be changed. I urge the Minister to obtain the data to which I refer from community welfare officers and to make it available in order that we might discuss people's real needs in an informed way.

There is also a lack of awareness regarding the existence of the supplement, which is a matter of some surprise. It is as if the Department hopes people will not become aware of the supplement in order that it will not be obliged to pay it. This matter must be addressed because it is giving rise to real difficulties for some people.

Perhaps one of the biggest scandals in the banking sector in recent years was the length to which financial institutions and sub-prime lenders would go to encourage and induce people into consolidating all their loans into a single mortgage. Needless to say this seemed an extremely attractive proposition at the time, particularly when people had a number of debts with various institutions in respect of which different repayment dates applied. These individuals received letters or saw advertisements suggesting that they "consolidate it all into one simple mortgage". Matters have not proven to be so simple. Many people who consolidated their debts are being particularly badly hit if they find it difficult to meet their payments because the mortgage interest supplement is paid only in respect of the portion of the mortgage that relates directly to the purchase of their dwelling house.

Poor Government regulation over the past 12 years allowed lenders to operate as they pleased and to actively encourage people into this position. Those making the type of commitments to which I refer would have been unaware of the criteria relating to the mortgage interest supplement and would certainly never have expected to find themselves in their current position. These people must be given the benefit of the doubt. We should, by all means, ensure that the regulations will be in place from now on and we should make people aware of that. However, it does not make sense to provide people with support only in respect of the portion of the mortgage that relates to the house. If the lender calls in the loan and repossesses the house, the proportions involved will be irrelevant.

Repossession orders sought by banks and mortgage lenders soared by more than 100% last year. Figures compiled by the Court Service show that in 2008 some 758 new applications for repossession orders were brought before the High Court. The figure for the previous year was 347. The increase in the figure for repossessions is the largest recorded by the courts and it points to aggressive tactics deployed by some lenders to recover their debts. The Master of the High Court, Mr. Edmond Honohan, recently warned that an avalanche of home repossession cases is anticipated. He stated that the number of such cases is increasing weekly, with an emerging ratio of approximately 80:20 between sub-prime lenders and mainstream banks. Mr. Honohan expects an avalanche because few of the cases that have appeared to date relate to recent job losses. In all cases before him since last October, the mortgage arrears were already in excess of nine months when proceedings were initiated. It is estimated that there are approximately 15,000 sub-prime mortgage holders in Ireland and it is feared that many of them are in difficulty.

The Government must act to protect all struggling home owners. While the recent code in respect of mortgage arrears is welcome, provision has not been made in respect of breaches of that code. In addition, the code has little or no impact on sub-prime lenders. The Government must address this matter immediately. The dismissive amendment to the motion effectively informs people that their difficulties are a matter for them and their financial institution and will only serve to isolate them further and escalate the problems they face.

The majority of people want to repay their loans. However, the downturn in the economy and the increase in unemployment means that many are finding it increasingly difficult to repay their debts. In dealing with individual cases, I have been struck by people's determination to find a way through their current difficulties. There is a strong desire on their part to find alternative employment in order that they can recommence paying their mortgages as soon as possible. These are people who entered into mortgage agreements in order to purchase homes for their families. They did what was considered the right and sensible thing. Many purchased houses at hugely inflated rates and are now finding it impossible to make ends meet.

Our changing economic environment brings into focus the current system of debt enforcement in Ireland and makes me question what we achieve by dragging an impoverished person under pressure from a debtor through an intimidating, costly and ineffective legal process. I accept that there must be a constitutional right of recourse to the courts. However, this is not the place from which we should start. Ours is one of the last governments in Europe to accept that fact.

Our debt enforcement legislation was last updated in the 1940s and has little or no relevance to the society in which we live. Most debt enforcement procedures take place at District Court level and assess the capacity of the debtor to pay. However, the way judgments are enforced is outdated. Many believe that the open court procedure — whereby people are exposed to members of their communities and the press in their local courts — is a natural deterrent. If a debtor does not file a defence, there will be no hearing and judgment for the amount claimed will be given in his or her absence when the solicitor for the creditor files the correct papers.

According to the Free Legal Advice Centre, FLAC, only some 20% of debtors appear at hearings. As a result, judgments are made in their absence and in the absence of up-to-date financial information. The repayment schedules that are decided are, therefore, often at a level which debtors cannot afford. In many instances, a debtor will be unaware that a judgment has been made against him or her. It is important to point out that many creditors are also unhappy with the system as it currently operates.

Last year alone, 276 people were imprisoned for failure to pay debt. The average sentence received was 27 days and the average sentence served was 20 days. Where is the financial logic for such a system? The person comes out of prison still owing the debt. They still have no means of repaying it. The creditor still does not receive the money and yet we have paid the courts system, judges, gardaí, prison officers, legal fees and whatever else. There is no economic sense to this system.

The overall cost to the State of over-indebtedness is hard to quantify but it is time for a complete overhaul. We must also bear in mind how innocent parties suffer. Chronic debt and imprisonment for failure to pay debts will have consequences for partners, children and relatives of the debtor who find themselves struggling further while their partner, father or relative is imprisoned, with the debt still hanging over the family.

I appreciate that there are those who could repay their debt and choose not to, but a real distinction must be made between those who cannot pay and those who will not pay. Money advisers will say that this becomes very clear in most cases, and those who will not pay should be subject to the full rigors of the law.

Is the Government and the Minister satisfied with the existing system and do they intend to take any action to relieve families suffering from debt? The existing system is archaic and there is common agreement among all stakeholders that it does not serve the interests of the creditor, debtor or taxpayer.

There are actions that can be taken immediately to address the situation. First, we should simplify documentation. Too many people under pressure from debt do not open registered letters and if they do, they panic at the prospect of court hearings and documents that are unintelligible to them. No explanatory information is included to explain the consequence of the legal proceedings in plain, understandable language. No contact numbers for MABS, the Legal Aid Board or FLAC, which the debtors could contact for assistance, are included. Effectively, people just see the long hand of the law reaching through their front door and try to bury their head in the sand.

It is not clearly explained to people that the creditor may also apply for legal costs or that interest may be claimed, increasing the debt substantially. A covering letter accompanying the summons will suggest that the debtor contact their solicitor for advice. Many cannot afford that and individuals can wait months for civil legal aid, depending on where they live. The system must be changed to ensure the legal jargon is removed. People receiving the documents should be able to understand clearly what they mean and the consequences of them. They should also be advised as to where they can turn for help. We must move also to regulate debt collectors, an issue Deputy Flanagan will expand on tomorrow.

We must examine a means of having an alternative dispute resolution system. We must review legislation. The legislation dealing with this area was introduced at a time when borrowing money was extremely rare. The process must be amended to deal with debt in a more effective way.

The Government must create an alternative dispute resolution system to help with debt settlement and mortgage renegotiation. MABS is an extremely useful service but its function is somewhat limited in that it is not equipped to engage or negotiate directly with lenders, although it has done some good pilot work in this area.

The approach to debt enforcement through this system will take less time, prove to be less expensive to the taxpayer and will be a more integrated and effective approach when dealing with consumer debt. Most stakeholders, except the Government, agree with that. The Irish Banking Federation supports calls by FLAC and MABS for an overhaul of the system.

I will deal briefly with the Government's response to the huge increase in the numbers of people seeking jobseeker's assistance. At best the response is inadequate. Every Member in this House has received complaints about the length of queues in social welfare offices. Restricted opening hours together with shortages in staff have resulted in serious queues. Community welfare officers have seen an 85% increase in the number of requests for emergency assistance in the past two years.

Last December, after much pressure, the Minister eventually announced the provision of 115 additional staff. The response was too little too late, and it is not clear if all of those have taken up their positions. She may tell us that tonight. It must be borne in mind that staff being deployed do not necessarily have the skills in this area. They have to be trained, which takes considerable time. We are expecting a continuously growing number of people in receipt of unemployment benefit in the immediate future. The Minister must act now to ensure sufficient numbers of staff are trained to cope with that.

Michael Noonan (Limerick East, Fine Gael)
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Ireland is facing a massive jobs crisis. Thousands of jobs are being lost every week. Some are being lost because Ireland is no longer competitive and the difference in wage, transport, telecommunications and energy costs explains succinctly how we recently had 1,900 redundancies in the Dell plant in Limerick.

The chairman of the jobs task force set up by the Government after the Dell announcement, Mr. Denis Brosnan, has estimated that 50,000 persons will be unemployed in the Limerick region by Christmas. The Taoiseach has estimated that 450,000 people will be unemployed nationally by the end of this year. Yesterday, the head of the OECD, Mr. Angel Gurria, estimated that unemployment in the 30 most advanced OECD countries would swell by approximately 23 million persons this year, which he described as "by far the largest and most rapid increase in OECD unemployment in the post-war period, which is rapidly turning into a jobs and social crisis".

The misery of joblessness is appalling but if, as a consequence, one loses one's house as well the misery is turned into a personal and a family disaster. The Government must act to ensure that house repossessions are minimised. Every decision the Government takes in the budget on 7 April must be measured against its effect on jobs and rejected if it does not pass the jobs test. People will still lose their houses, however, and the Government must take explicit action to support home ownership and forestall foreclosures to give people time to get back to work and maintain their homes.

In its recent recapitalisation arrangement with the banks, the Government secured commitments from them to provide a moratorium on repayments for unemployed persons. This is welcome in so far as it goes but it only applies to the three main banks. I know of one mortgage broker who has been arranging loans for people with 17 different finance companies. Government agreements with Allied Irish Bank, Bank of Ireland and Anglo Irish Bank are welcome but what about the 14 other finance companies that are taking people to court to foreclose on their mortgages?

Today's The Irish Times illustrates what is happening in the High Court. As reported in yesterday's High Court, IIB Homeloans repossessed a property in Tullamore, County Offaly. Later in the morning, three further possession orders were granted to IIB Homeloans. One of the properties was in County Clare. The court heard that the defendant couple had attempted to sell their property for some time but without success. They had a mortgage of €220,000. The arrears were €13,483 and the total balance was well in excess of the value of the property by the time the court proceedings took place.

Later in the day a repossession of a home in County Kildare by Start Mortgages took place and the judge, in handing down the order, said that he was seriously concerned that the property was still not worth €400,000, the value attributed to it when the mortgage was raised. Later in the day a repossession order was granted to Leeds Building Society after the court had heard that no mortgage repayments had been made on the loan since it was drawn down, and so on.

This is the story every week in the High Court where repossession orders are given. They do not involve Allied Irish Bank Bank of Ireland or Anglo Irish Bank but the multiplicity of other lending agencies that have been active since the Celtic tiger took off. I know one broker who has given out mortgages sourced at 17 different lending agencies.

Some months ago in the United Kingdom, the Prime Minister, Gordon Brown announced that a six months moratorium would apply to all persons in difficulty with their mortgages and that a two year period where interest payments would be suspended would also apply to persons unemployed. The Government of the United Kingdom would underpin this arrangement but the two years would be added on at the end of the mortgage period when the individual would get back to work. The 30 year mortgage, therefore, would become a 32 year mortgage but there would be a two year gap in the middle. That is reasonable, and the Government here should follow that example.

MABS should be allowed to retain persons who have the skills to renegotiate mortgages. That could be done on a case by case basis. It could be paid for on a no foal, no fee basis, with a few hundred euro per mortgage renegotiated, but MABS, despite its excellence, does not have the skills to renegotiate mortgages. That should be done, and it is included in the motion before the House.

Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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I wish to make a few brief but important points. The community welfare officer is becoming more important in his interaction with the community than had previously been the case. I compliment the Department on the training of the community welfare officers so they can deal with people who are in desperate situations and I support them in their work.

Increasingly I am hearing from people who have been refused assistance on the basis of the habitual residence clause, an issue of growing concern. Returned emigrants who have been out of the country for over a year have been refused social welfare claims on that basis. They have worked abroad, losing their employment benefit entitlement even though they are Irish citizens. Perhaps the Minister could provide statistics on the numbers involved.

I have been seeking information on the number appeals to community welfare officers in County Louth but I have not received a satisfactory response. In my experience, rarely, if ever, is an appeal successful. I would like to find out what is happening throughout the country and I ask the Minister to publish a league table of appeals to superintendent community welfare officers and further appeals to the HSE. There must be more transparency about those facts and figures.

In many cases those who have lost an appeal have not prepared the best possible case for themselves and there may be a need for assistance in the preparation of appeals. The wording of refusals can also be very cold, with phrases such as "I received your undated letter of..." smacking of bureaucracy.

The CWOs and the Society of St. Vincent de Paul work well together in County Louth and I pay tribute to the work they do to deal with cases. The Society of St. Vincent de Paul can assist in cases where there may be a doubt — it errs on the side of generosity and I welcome that.

In County Louth, 14,700 people are claiming job seeker's benefit or job seeker's allowance. Of those, fewer than 200 are on the back to work or back to education allowances. There is a job to be done around the country in dealing with people who would benefit from the back to work or back to education allowances, particularly young people who were involved in the construction industry, to get better qualifications. Perhaps the Minister will direct attention to that area when applications are being assessed, with someone appointed to tell people about educational options that are available in a way they can act upon.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I compliment Deputy Enright on tabling this important motion. People are hurting at the moment and they are feeling the pressure. People who have never gone near a social welfare office or a community welfare officer are finding it strange and difficult and are upset at the length of time it takes to process their cases. Even before the recession, there were problems last year getting some benefits from the Department. It would take weeks for claims to be processed and now, with the recession, it takes even longer, putting further pressure on the community welfare officers who must pay out money in the meantime.

There was much talk last year of taking staff from the Department of Health and Children and placing them in the Department of Social and Family Affairs. They say that a week in politics is a long time but a year in this country is not a long time. This time last year everything was booming and now we have a depression and people are feeling the pressure. The community welfare officers are working very hard under a lot of pressure. I see it in my own town where we have massive unemployment now. Many people were working in the hotel industry but, with the decline in numbers visiting and hotels under pressure, they are on a three-day week or using the social welfare system.

Even the social welfare offices are under pressure. More resources must be put in place for social welfare offices; they need more staff and support. I tried to contact a local officer today about a case I had yesterday. He told me he is at breaking point and that he is unable to cope. He is at it seven days a week because he feels for those people he sees coming in. He knows they are under pressure and that he must deal with their cases immediately. He does not want them to have to wait because he knows these people are under pressure. He told me he was seeing people he had never seen in his life and he has been working in the Department for 30 years. These people have never been in a social welfare office or seen a community welfare officer. He is trying to do the right thing by them, by the Minister and by the Department to ensure that they are looked after.

I ask the Minister for Social and Family Affairs not to allow what is happening in the west — the centralisation of the medical card distribution to a centre in Dublin. We have enough agencies and eejits in Dublin we cannot deal with already. We cannot deal with these eejits. At least we can deal with local people at home. I do not want to see discretion taken away from the community welfare officers because if a person needs to talk to an eejit in Dublin, he or she will not answer the phone and there will be more problems. If I table a question, I will be told the Minister has no responsibility. Keep that service in the regions, in the counties and with the community welfare officers.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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They will not answer people who call them eejits.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am talking about the eejits the Ministers is going to put in place now.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I congratulate Deputy Enright on tabling this motion. Like anyone who has been around this House for a few years, I thought I would never see this day and I am sorry that it has come. I know people who have been waiting between ten and 16 weeks for a decision on their job seeker's benefit. That is a denial of a basic human right because it is fundamentally important to people for their everyday lives. It is nothing short of shameful.

I join Deputies on all sides in saying that I have never found, particularly now the pressure is on them, a more dedicated brigade of people than the community welfare officers. They work under terrible conditions. I heard the Minister announce some time ago that she was increasing the numbers. Whatever she did, it was of no use at all because they are swamped with people and she knows that as well as I do. There is a breaking point and those men and women have reached it.

That is no good, however, to the people who are waiting so long for their money. There are two problems here. If the Department cannot make the assessment and pay the claim quickly, the community welfare officers must pay out supplementary welfare. Two systems are running in parallel unnecessarily. This is the same money so there is a need to streamline this system as soon as possible.

Apart from sickness, one of the worst things to befall a man or woman is when they lose their job. Not alone do they lose their dignity, they have problems paying back loans. They know they will be able to pay back money to the credit union on loans for furniture, televisions and other small items. However, if there is not enough money coming into a household, one can imagine the pressure caused by repayments. One can see why the illegal moneylenders become so welcome in such situations. These current economic conditions are heaven to the moneylenders. We will see them sprouting up like mushrooms all over the place in the next 12 months if no action is taken on repayment conditions.

This evening I saw the starkest figure I have ever seen in my long political life. Currently, 2,250 people are on Galway County Council's housing waiting list when it usually is approximately 1,000. The astonishing aspect of this figure is that 500 people went on the waiting list in the past three months. These are the people who have had problems with job losses and receiving social welfare payments, many of whom will soon lose their homes.

Andrew Doyle (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Enright for tabling this Private Members' motion. This afternoon I learned of the imminent closure of Schering-Plough in Bray, County Wicklow, which will lead to the loss of 240 specialist jobs and add to the 10,000 people already unemployed in the county. With unemployment on the rise, we must examine how our social welfare and community support systems operate.

On 3 March, I put down a parliamentary question asking the Minister for Social and Family Affairs if the various unemployment and training social welfare schemes are outdated in the current economic climate in view of the varied profiles of the people applying for State assistance. For example, the back to work allowance is designed to assist the long-term unemployed. It does not, however, define long term. The Minister's reply concluded, "the qualifying conditions will continue to be monitored in the context of the objectives of the scheme and the changing economic circumstances".

We cannot continue playing catch-up. Community welfare officers and social welfare inspectors have informed me they are dealing with many new social welfare recipients, profiles of whom they have never before encountered. Those at the coalface are sending recommendations to their head offices for further assistance, requests which are constantly declined. They are trying to be creative in the current existing structures because they recognise the predicament faced by social welfare recipients.

Deputy Charles Flanagan recently raised the matter of 13 of the 15 State prisons being overcrowded. Last year, 276 people were jailed for failing to repay debt, serving an average of 20 days, which equates to two year's servitude for a criminal. All of these people wanted to pay their debts but such a distinction has not been made. Many of them have been contributors to society, self-employed workers who now cannot get any assistance from the State as they are means-tested.

In the 1990s, there were start-your-own-business initiatives in which people could access seed capital. Now, no small business, even those which are relatively healthy, can get seed capital or credit. People who find themselves in such personal circumstances are being forced to cut into their savings and whittle them down to €20,000. In crude terms, that is not much more than what will bury someone these days. The cost of living is going down but the cost of dying is going up.

We cannot wait until next year to respond; we need to respond now. We need imaginative thinking to help these people who want to help themselves. Much of the responsibility for the current economic state of affairs lies with the Government.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The Private Members' motion tabled by Deputy Enright offers an opportunity to reflect on the more human aspect of the perilous financial situation in which the country finds itself. It is an effort to provide practical support to people who are finding this period extremely difficult.

During the last significant recession in the 1980s, the critical issue was Ireland's national debt which ultimately focused all minds on finding a solution. This time round, the factors are significantly different. Debt has in essence been transferred from the State to the citizen. Personal debt in the form of credit card repayments, car loans, personal loans, hire purchase agreements and mortgages comes to hundreds of billions of euro. The State, through its Government, must support its people to ultimately support itself.

Similarities in the treatment of customers can be drawn between how we purport to run our public service and what has happened with our banking system. Historically, a bank manager was a community's counterbalance, between those that had money to lodge and those that required a loan. With the wisdom of Solomon, he adjudicated on what was put before him. The system worked reasonably well for nearly 200 years, with the odd hiccup on occasion.

However, in the past ten years, when an individual's car loan or a mortgage was approved, it was packaged up with many others to be sent off to Wall Street, London or the Docklands Financial Services Centre where somebody bet on the person's ability to pay the loan back. This dehumanising of the process has placed us in the current economic position in which we find ourselves.

With this in mind, it is only correct the Government should act by implementing this motion's proposals in the redeployment of social welfare staff and the creation of legislation to address a matter that will become more prominent. As a matter of urgency the Government must reallocate social welfare staff. A Civil Service that is responsive to the needs of the people is required. It is not acceptable for families to have to wait up to 16 weeks for welfare payments because of a shortage in staff to deal with claims.

More than 9,616 people in receipt of mortgage interest supplement, an increase of 134% over the number in receipt of this payment at the end of 2007, will become a time bomb for the Government. Young couples and individuals are stretched on 25, 30 or 35-year mortgages with repayments of up to €2000 a month. The loss of one job in such a household would have catastrophic consequences. Any reduction in salary places an enormous strain. Yet the new code on mortgage arrears does not sufficiently protect borrowers and fails to include any sanctions for breaches of the code. The moratorium agreed by the banks and the Government must be monitored carefully in light of disagreements between the parties on its length.

The introduction on the website of the Department of Social and Family Affairs reads, "Our mission is to promote a caring society through income and other support services, enabling active participation in society, promoting social inclusion and supporting families". While such words are fine, it is the manner in which the mission is implemented that is key. The modest proposals in this motion would go some way towards addressing the imbalances people are experiencing in this regard.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I move amendment No. 1:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

noting that the average processing time nationally for jobseeker's benefit was three weeks in February and that the average for the jobseeker's allowance was six weeks;

welcoming the provision of extra staff to social welfare local offices and the process improvement initiatives and other steps that have been taken to reduce delays;

acknowledging that jobseekers may get a supplementary welfare allowance from the community welfare officer while they are awaiting a decision on their claim;

recognising that the HSE is currently reviewing the allocation of staff engaged in the delivery of the supplementary welfare allowance scheme and associated income support payments in the context of the Government policy on public service manpower levels;

appreciating the importance of the mortgage interest supplement scheme in assisting mortgage holders and the provision of almost €30 million for that scheme in 2009;

welcoming the publication of the statutory code of conduct on mortgage arrears;

valuing the role of the money advice and budgeting service, MABS, in helping people to organise their debts and make arrangements with debtors and the Legal Aid Board in providing legal advice to people with debt problems;

recognising that 90% of callers to the MABS helpdesk get the assistance they need over the phone without having to make an appointment;

noting that the MABS is represented on the Legal Aid Board's consultative panel and that the two organisations do and will work together;

further noting the commitment of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to continuing to review legislation including the Enforcement of Court Orders Acts 1926 and 1940 and the Bankruptcy Act 1988; and

recognising the review in the current Law Reform work programme on the examination on debt enforcement and securing interests over personal property; supports the Government's determination to:

take further steps to reduce processing times in offices where they are much longer than the national average and to ensure that jobseekers receive financial and other supports as early as possible;

continue to publicise the supports that are available through the MABS and to encourage people to contact them early before their debt problems accumulate;

ensure that the MABS continues to play a vital role in negotiating with creditors on behalf of people with debts;

assert that civil debt is generally a matter best mediated between the two parties involved;

acknowledge that the current legislation includes safeguards that are there to ensure that imprisonment is a final resort and is invoked for breach of a court order or contempt of court; and

note that it is necessary in the interests of competitiveness and the rule of law that third parties can ultimately rely on the courts to ensure that contracts can be enforced.

I wish to share my time with Deputy Cyprian Brady and Deputy Dara Calleary.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick East, Labour)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Enright and all those who spoke tonight for their constructive comments on a serious issue. The motion is a comprehensive one that covers a wide range of issues and for that reason both I and the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will speak in the debate. The Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, will speak tomorrow evening to address some of the issues that relate to debt legislation.

We all acknowledge the extremely hard working staff we have in social welfare offices and community welfare offices throughout the country. I accept they are under pressure. That is primarily due to the pace of the change and the rate of increase that has placed great demands on them. Despite the additional staff that have been made available, the further staff that will be going into the offices and the improved processes that have been put in place I accept there are some offices where the waiting times are too long. We are working seriously with them to address the issue. In my local office in Dún Laoghaire, staff are coming in on Saturdays to make sure they are dealing with the backlog. That is happening throughout the country to try to give people their entitlements. It is a key concern for the Government.

Deputy Noonan inquired whether the budget is about jobs; it is. It is about protecting people in jobs and the people we are concerned about tonight to get them back into work, and in the meantime to support those people who have lost their jobs. As everybody knows, unfortunately, there has been a significant increase in the live register and tomorrow we will see a further increase. Year on year it is up more than 165,000 on the February figures, which is an increase of 87%.

As has been stated, we are talking not just about the persons on the live register but their families, children, spouses, homes, and the debts they have accumulated. I assure people that right across all sectors within Government we are committed to doing our best to try to meet the needs of those people in recognition of their vulnerability. Staff are genuinely working flat out. We were fortunate in recent years that we did not have this type of problem, namely, people losing their jobs in such numbers. The staff have responded well and between the last quarter of 2007 and the final quarter of 2008 productivity of existing staff increased by 74%.

The Deputy inquired about the total number of posts that were allocated, including facilitators. A total of 266 extra staff have been allocated but of the 246 allocated to social welfare offices in recent months 223 of them are already in place and the rest will be assigned in the next couple of weeks. Various practices had to be adhered to that had been agreed with unions and it is important that we try to get through those practices quickly to facilitate the needs in the various offices. Of the 246 posts, 190 staff are being assigned to local offices, while 16 additional inspectors are being put in place in various locations around the country to undertake means testing and other work associated with the processing of jobseeker's allowance claims. Inspectors and the investigation unit are also doing valuable work on control and fraud, which is a central part of ensuring the right people are getting the money. Members may have seen evidence of that especially in the cross-Border work we are doing.

Many local offices have reached capacity, or are close to reaching capacity, in terms of the number of staff that can be accommodated in them. Therefore, as was mentioned in the House recently, a number of central decisions units are being set up around the country. There will be four of these units initially, one in Townsend Street in Dublin city centre, one in Finglas, one in Sligo and one in Carrick-on-Shannon. A total of 40 of the additional staff are being assigned to the central decisions units. A further unit is planned for Roscommon and it is expected that additional units will be set up in other areas in the coming months. The great advantage of them is that they will simply be deciding offices. Staff there will go through the paperwork and be able to make speedy decisions.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Good. That is right.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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In addition to those 246 staff, the number of facilitators providing support for people who are unemployed has also been increased from 40 to 60. A question was asked about who would advise people about the back to education and back to work schemes. Again, we have seen significant increases in participation in the back to education scheme, which is important. We hope to see more of that. In accordance with Government policy, the majority of those posts were filled by the redeployment of existing civil servants, either within the Department or from other Departments.

Given the number of locations involved in administering jobseeker's payments in the Department, the deployment of staff was complex and, in many cases, involved the lateral transfer of individuals from one location to another. However, that is being done as quickly as possible. We recognise that providing additional staff is only one element in dealing with the increased volume of claims. Therefore, a number of measures have been taken to date to improve claim processing procedures. These include the introduction of a streamlined process for people who had a claim in the previous two years; an improved procedure for claimants moving from jobseeker's benefit to jobseeker's allowance, which we plan to extend to all offices later this month — that should be completed by now; on-line availability of application forms for the jobseeker schemes; and the use of an appointment system for taking claims in some offices, which we intend to roll out to other areas over the coming months. That has worked very well. People are given an appointment and come with all their documentation and a decision is made there and then for them. We are rolling that out to all our offices in the coming months.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Is much of that going on?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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We operated it on a pilot basis initially in one of the offices to see how it would work and as it is working well we are spreading it throughout the country.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Very good.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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It protects the dignity of the person also if he or she is not left waiting.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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CWOs are able to do that everywhere.

Joe Carey (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Exactly.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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It is practical.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Members will be aware that what happens in a social welfare office is that everybody turns up together on a Monday morning. They all turn up at 8 a.m. even though the office might not open until 9 a.m. or 9.30 a.m. People want to try to get on with their lives as best they can——

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Why can they not schedule appointments?

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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——and they are also people who are used to getting up and going to work so they tend to arrive before the offices are open. The streamlining process will help.

The average processing times for applications processed in February was three weeks for jobseeker's benefit claims and six weeks for jobseeker's allowance claims. That is the average nationally but, as I indicated, there are variations between offices. The length of time it takes to process claims varies and depends not only on the availability of staff in a given office but also on the complexity of the claim, the provision of the necessary documentation from the applicant or his or her employer and the need to carry out additional inquiries including assessment of means. That is why it takes longer to process jobseeker's allowance claims. By providing extra staff and improving the processing of claims, we are trying to ensure that the process is as efficient as it can be. I accept that processing times are still too long in some areas but in many big offices the processing times are very quick and perhaps other offices can learn lessons from them. We will continue to take the necessary steps to improve the situation and we will keep matters under review.

Deputies paid tribute to community welfare officers. If people need support while they are awaiting a decision on their jobseeker's payment they can apply for a supplementary welfare allowance, SWA. In the same way as social welfare staff are under pressure, the same is true of community welfare officers. The latter are still employed by the Health Service Executive even though they administer the scheme for the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Expenditure in that area is under our control. There has been a long drawn out process to bring over community welfare officers to the Department of Social and Family Affairs and I hope we can conclude the process as quickly as possible.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They need to work in their areas and not in Dublin.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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There is no question of that.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is. There was talk of bringing the administration of medical cards from local areas to Dublin.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry. I thought the Deputy was talking about bringing community welfare officers to Dublin.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The social welfare payments they make will all be kept at local bases also.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Do not centralise it.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The payments are extensive. They include the basic weekly payments, rent and mortgage interest supplements, diet supplements, miscellaneous other supplements, exceptional needs payments, and urgent needs payments. Total expenditure on the supplementary welfare allowance scheme in 2008 was €882 million, which is a substantial amount of money. The Department funds the HSE on the basis of the proportion of the community welfare officer's time that is spent administering SWA, as opposed to activities carried out for other organisations such as medical card assessments for the HSE or homeless services on behalf of local authorities.

The issue of increased demand on existing resources is a matter for the HSE in the first instance to prioritise workloads and redeploy resources where necessary so that front line services are maintained. My Department is working closely with the HSE to ensure effective delivery of services and any request by the HSE for an additional staffing allocation will be given due consideration. The question of any increase in expenditure for staffing within the community welfare service, above that currently provided, would have to be considered in the context of overall Government policy on public service manpower levels. In 2008, the Department paid the HSE €58.3 million in administration costs, which was used to fund 636 community welfare officer posts, 58 superintendent community welfare officer posts and 172 additional support staff.

As I mentioned earlier, recourse to the supplementary welfare allowance, SWA, is an important resource for people waiting for their jobseeker's claim to be decided upon. A long processing time in some areas can lead to increased demand for the SWA. Extra staff have been assigned to the Department's social welfare local offices and, hopefully, this will speed up the processing and relieve some of the pressure on the community welfare officers.

The motion before the House tonight also refers to the mortgage interest supplement scheme, which is designed to help those who run into difficulties with meeting their mortgage repayment schedule when their income drops significantly. There has been much mention of the loss of a job being the worst thing that could happen to somebody, but losing one's home must come very close to that. The most recent figures indicate that approximately 11,000 people are in receipt of mortgage interest supplement, an increase of almost 7,000 over the number receiving payment at end 2007. This is a significant number. If Members feel we have not advertised this relief adequately, I will be happy to do that. Whenever I mention the relief in the media, I notice an increase in the uptake. People like to know it is there.

The provision for this demand-led scheme has increased from €12 million to almost €30 million and will continue to be monitored on an ongoing basis in light of the current economic circumstances. The supplement assists with the interest portion of the mortgage repayments only, in respect of a house which is the person's sole place of residence. The capital element of the repayment is not taken into account in calculating the amount of supplement payable as it is not considered appropriate that the Exchequer should repay part of the initial loan and thereby provide assistance towards the accumulation of a capital asset on the part of the individual concerned. The HSE must be satisfied that the loan agreement was entered into at a time when the person was in a position to meet the repayments.

The amount of the mortgage interest payable by the claimant must also not exceed such amount as the HSE considers reasonable to meet the claimant's residential and other needs. In exceptional circumstances, the HSE may award a supplement where the amount of mortgage interest payable by a person exceeds such amount as the HSE considers reasonable to meet his or her residential and other needs. Such a supplement is payable for a maximum of 12 months from the date of the claim.

Mortgage interest supplements are normally calculated to ensure that a person, after the payment of mortgage interest, has an income equal to the rate of supplementary welfare allowance appropriate to their family circumstances less a minimum contribution, of €18, which recipients are required to pay from their own resources. Many recipients pay more than €18 because they are also required, subject to income disregards, to contribute any additional assessable means that they have over and above the appropriate basic social welfare allowance rate towards their accommodation costs. The existing mortgage interest supplement assessment provides for a gradual withdrawal of payment as hours of employment or earnings increase. In recent years, improvements have been made to the means test to encourage eligible people to engage in employment without losing their entire mortgage interest supplement. Those availing of part-time employment — less than 30 hours a week — and-or training opportunities can continue to receive mortgage interest supplement subject to their satisfying the standard means assessment rules.

Since June 2007, where a person has additional income in excess of the standard weekly rate of supplementary welfare allowance, the first €75 of such additional income together with 25% of any additional income above €75 is disregarded for means assessment purposes. This ensures that those returning to work or participating in training schemes are better off as a result of taking up such an opportunity.

We appreciate that becoming unable to meet one's mortgage payments is a hugely stressful situation. By helping with the interest part of the mortgage, this scheme significantly reduces the burden on people who would otherwise be likely to default on their mortgage. However, the advice is that in the first instance, people should negotiate with their lender or financial institution. Many of the mainstream banks are taking a reasonable approach in this regard.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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People need help to do that.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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This is in the context of looking for the mortgage interest supplement. If their mortgage repayments can be put on hold or renegotiated, that would also be a help. The mortgage interest supplement is something on which people can fall back. The scheme is being reviewed in order to ensure that it continues to meet the needs of the maximum number of people possible.

We put forward suggestions as to what people should do with regard to their debt and that is the reason we have the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS. It is a wonderful operation and provides advice to people on how to cope with their debts. The number of visits to MABS has increased significantly. The budget for MABS this year is €18 million. The service operates from 65 locations throughout the country and also offers a national telephone helpline. I urge Deputies to recommend this helpline to people they know in need of help because it is very efficient and is available from 9 a.m. to 8 p.m. from Monday to Friday. The service also has a website that can be accessed 24 hours a day.

In 2008, over 16,000 new clients approached MABS for assistance with debt difficulties and the telephone helpline dealt with almost 11,000 callers. Up to the end of February this year, 3,400 new clients approached the service and over 4,200 calls were received on the telephone helpline. Some 252 staff have been allocated to the MABS service, so that it can provide vital money advice and assistance services all over the country. Deputy Noonan made a valuable suggestion earlier about renegotiating mortgages and people with particular skills. I will see if I can accommodate that.

Olwyn Enright (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We made that suggestion a month ago on Question Time. We need action on these matters.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy was talking about employing people with particular skills to work with MABS. However, MABS people have particular expertise. They have worked and continue to work with the financial institutions. They have said that, unfortunately, some lenders — the ones most likely to take people to court — will not deal with MABS or anybody else. However, the more mainstream financial institutions are willing to talk to them and discuss the issue.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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That is the reason people are so vulnerable. They are very alone in such situations.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. The statutory code has it written into it that mortgage providers must recommend that people go to MABS. This is written in formally and will, hopefully, improve the situation. We put in that provision to ensure that those, almost sub-prime, lenders most likely to evict people would be obliged to negotiate with borrowers and MABS. As we know, people approaching MABS may have debt owed to a range of creditors, including banks and financial institutions, credit unions, electricity and gas companies, and moneylenders. MABS NDL, the national support company, works closely with the Financial Regulator and the Irish Bankers Federation to ensure that the best advice is available to people.

I already mentioned the statutory code and the advice MABS offers. It provides budgeting advice on setting up accounts with local credit unions. It does tremendous work for people with particular financial difficulties. The telephone helpline is particularly significant for people who need immediate advice. Over 90% of callers to the helpline find that their money management and budgeting issues can be resolved with the assistance of the helpline advisor. It is a great support to people to have somebody at the other end of the telephone line who is able to provide good advice. Some 10% of callers or more difficult cases are referred to the local MABS for appointment.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the Government should ring the helpline.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is working very hard to meet all of our needs, but that is not easy.

Paul Connaughton Snr (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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That would be phoning a friend.

Mary Hanafin (Dún Laoghaire, Fianna Fail)
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We all recognise the valuable work MABS does. Consulting MABS can be a very positive step for people and helps them overcome the difficulties they have in meeting and repaying their debt. MABS is also represented on the Legal Aid Board's consultative panel and the two organisations work well together. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform will deal with those issues tomorrow.

Tonight's debate has demonstrated there is a genuine concern among all Members for those people who are losing their jobs and that we are willing to see how we can meet their needs. We are doing that through additional staff, more stream-lined processing and through ensuring that we meet their needs through social welfare, community welfare officers or MABS as far as possible.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The staff should be complimented on what they achieve under pressure.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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I acknowledge the progress set out in the Government's amendment and the Minister's input into making such progress, including by way of providing extra staff and resources to try to address the dramatic turnaround in the demand for welfare payments in the past 12 months. This turnaround was referred to by Deputy Cyprian Brady. I pay particular tribute to the staff in all the local offices who have had to deal with the matter head-on. In many cases, they will be able to manage the problem within their existing resources. They are at the coalface and deal with people who do not want to be in their offices. In the majority of cases, such people arrive at the offices in a shocked and embarrassed state. The staff deal with them and process their claims.

The staff at the Department of Social and Family Affairs lead the way in terms of their service and assistance to clients and Members of this House. I stated privately to the Minister that I appreciate the work of all the staff who man the Oireachtas helplines. If every Department's Oireachtas helpline were as efficient and helpful, the number of questions in this House would be reduced greatly.

I am concerned about staffing arrangement in the Ballina office, as the Minister is aware. I have spoken to her about it and I ask that she look into the delay in appointing the extra staff. The Minister is continuing to hammer her colleague in the Office of Public Works with regard to the need for the new social welfare office in the town, which was never more needed than at present.

The Minister referred in her speech to the variations in response times from office to office nationally. The shortest period mentioned was three weeks and this needs to become the standard. At a time when people must sign on and receive payments, we need to provide some sort of income certainty to address the very real anxieties people face. In the context of the current partnership talks, the Minister should table, on behalf of the Government, a proposal to the unions to commit to achieving a minimum turnaround time for responding to claims. This is because people's incomes and daily lives are being dealt with. People are not statistics and it is not a survey; it is real life in real situations. I ask that the unions become involved in reducing the turnaround time. If this means redeploying staff from other Departments, let it be done, and done quickly.

I, too, pay tribute to community welfare officers. Deputy Ring's comment on ensuring they are local is hugely important. Local officers understand local circumstances and, more particularly, local personalities. They can see one coming a mile away and, in this economy, that is needed as much as anything else. This is why I want to put on record the centralisation of medical card processing to Dublin, in spite of its being the subject of a different debate. Nobody operating a computer understands a person. We need to retain the community welfare officer model at the level of medical card processing.

The Government's commitment to dealing with debt issues was shown in the discussions with the banks, particularly in regard to the handling of the mortgage arrears problem. The Minister referred in her speech to the supplementary allowances available for mortgage interest relief. There is much confusion over this and Members of the Oireachtas need to direct people further towards those allowances.

The work of the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, is superb. We often end up doing its type of work in our offices. MABS is a success story of this economy and it suggests how something small can grow and respond in a very timely manner using technology to address real queries. We should all commit to promoting the work of MABS in our own newsletters and through our own publicity work. We should give the service a boost.

Over the next week as the Minister is addressing the issue of resources in her Department, she should note that many people were self-employed in recent years, be it in a trade or some other form of employment. They paid tax and PRSI and, in many cases, employed others and paid PRSI on their behalf. Those whom they employed, who may now be unemployed, are entitled to social welfare but their employers are not immediately entitled to it. They are stuck in a catch-22 situation and we need to assist them. The Minister for Social and Family Affairs, with the Minister for Finance, should consider this even if it involves taking resources from another section of the Department of Social and Family Affairs, as it probably will.

Particular attention must be paid to credit card debt. Although we are concerned here with mortgages and personal debt, the issue of credit card debt merits study by MABS or the Department to determine how we can help people to pay it off. Interest rates on credit cards are crippling, yet the temptation to use the cards still exists. This is not the case with other forms of debt. I ask the Minister to consider this.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Labour)
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I will share time with Deputies Arthur Morgan and Mary Upton. I commend Fine Gael on bringing this motion to the House. I agree with the majority of its proposals, and the Labour Party will support it in full in the vote tomorrow night.

Yet again, we find ourselves in here discussing long queues at social welfare offices. In recent days, the Department of Social and Family Affairs provided me with figures which showed an escalating problem with 27 welfare offices now having a waiting time of nine weeks or more for jobseeker allowance applicants. Bandon, with a waiting time of 14 weeks, has the worst record in the country. Drogheda and Edenderry are next with waiting times of 13 weeks while Boyle, Castlepollard and Loughrea have waiting times of 12 weeks.

Last week, the Secretary General of the Department told the Committee of Public Accounts that the target waiting time was five weeks. This is not good enough. We are not discussing a reservation for a posh restaurant, we are talking about someone's income. People need to know where they stand in order that they can adjust their household budgets accordingly. The actual position at present is that 63 welfare offices, more than half of the total, have average waiting times of more than five weeks. This is not acceptable.

I have examined these figures in detail. While the single biggest problem is the force of numbers turning up to sign on, there are also clear organisational difficulties. For instance, the rate of increase of numbers signing on is below average in Drogheda, yet this office has the second longest wait time in the country. By contrast, the number signing on at the Westport office has risen by 120% in a year, which is well above average, yet that office has a waiting time of just two weeks.

I am not convinced that the present system works at times of high demand or that there is enough flexibility generally within the public sector to deal with such problems. The problem was evident at least six months ago, yet even the staff which the Minister has been able to secure are not yet in place. I would implore the Minister to find the staff and to reduce the waiting times because people who have lost their jobs deserve nothing less.

I also want to speak about mortgages. I am particularly disappointed that the motion does not include a proposal on mortgage interest supplement because it is a very pressing issue. The boom-bust policies of Fianna Fáil did not just mess up our public finances, they have left a permanent hefty monthly bill for thousands of Irish homeowners. This has been largely overlooked by the media in recent months. It is fair to say that safeguards for mortgage holders have played second fiddle to safeguards for mortgage providers during the current financial crisis. It is long past time this imbalance was addressed.

The code of conduct on mortgage arrears is incredibly weak. The focus on delaying home repossessions instead of dealing with the debt issue itself is a major flaw. Very little protection remains for people struggling with their mortgages. At the Labour Party conference in Mullingar last weekend I called for several key commitments from the Government and the banks on mortgages.

There has to be a total overhaul of the mortgage interest supplement scheme. I am very concerned for the future of many families if the scheme is not changed soon. Most of the rules for this scheme were set down before the housing boom. They reflect a time when mortgages were much lower and were paid back with one wage rather than two. At present, if one of a couple works 30 or more hours a week, they do not qualify regardless of how high their mortgage is or how low their income may be. The figure of 30 hours seems to be arbitrary and it does not relate to the circumstances in which people find themselves. For many families, it means that where one partner has lost employment, the other must reduce his or her working hours or give up work altogether. Very often, this is the only way they can continue to meet the cost of their mortgage.

In recent weeks, I have had contact from dozens of newly unemployed people, such as painters, printers, plasterers, carpenters, builders and electricians each with high mortgages and young families. I had to tell each and every one of them that they are better off on the dole and their partners are too. If the rules are not changed quickly, it is only a matter of time before people will be giving up their marriages instead of giving up their jobs in order that the family is not made homeless. There must be a better way.

The Government is the first to tell those struggling with debt that the worst thing one can do is to ignore the problem, yet this is exactly what the Government is doing in respect of the mounting crisis of private mortgage debt. There are at least four areas where the Government could make a difference. The Government should scrap the 30-hour rule that penalises people because they work. It should revise the means test for the supplement to ensure it does not act as a disincentive to work as it does at present. It should examine ways in which the State could revise the shared ownership scheme to help struggling home-owners to qualify, thereby allowing the State to take equity in the home which could be paid back over a more manageable timeframe and at a more manageable rate. The Government should get the banks, which have just received €7 billion in welfare payments themselves, to postpone interest payments for struggling mortgage holders for two years. It is in no one's interest that family homes are repossessed, families are separated or workers are forced onto the live register. Yet these will be the consequences if the Government does not act quickly.

I also want to discuss those on fixed rate mortgages. For mortgage holders on a tracker mortgage, the cost of interest on their monthly payment has declined significantly, by approximately 26%, in the past 12 months. This has helped somewhat to offset the pay cuts, extra taxes and extra levies with which people have been faced. It has also helped them to meet higher costs on items such as groceries, insurance, child care and GP fees which continue to increase. However, not everyone has been so lucky. Mortgage holders on a fixed-rate mortgage also have had to bear all these extra costs, cuts and charges, yet their monthly mortgage bill has not reduced. For most, there is a very hefty penalty if they try to switch. One constituent told me his bank is charging him €14,000 to switch from his 12-year fixed rate mortgage. It is time the banks played their part. It should be possible for the banks to offer a once-off penalty-free switch to a variable rate mortgage to existing customers or at least to reduce the penalty significantly. The Government should have made this a condition of financial support.

The motion also refers to the role of MABS. MABS already has a role in mortgage renegotiation and debt settlement, although this could be improved with more resources. I am concerned about the growth of for-profit intermediaries for people experiencing debt. I received an e-mail from one such intermediary last week, as I am sure other Members did also. It talks of doing all the things that MABS does but for a price. There is a delicate balance to be struck between allowing people the free choice of paying someone to handle their affairs and at the same time ensuring their obvious vulnerability is not exploited when a free State-supported service already exists.

I would like the Minister to arrange for the publication of the waiting times at each MABS office. Debt problems, by their very nature, require immediate attention and it encourages recourse to money-lending if people are turned off by long waiting times. Statistics on this would be helpful in identifying where extra resources are most required. They would also, I expect, promote greater efficiency in the overall service.

I welcome this motion which covers a wide range of issues which face those who have lost their jobs in recent times. When people experience the trauma of losing their jobs they are in a very vulnerable position. The least they should expect is that when they turn to the State for assistance, such assistance is available in a timely, professional and caring manner. Regrettably, due to the inadequate resources that are allocated to the area, that is not the situation at the moment. This area needs to be tackled immediately.

The issue of growing personal debt, which is just below the radar at the moment, will be a major problem in the future. The Government needs to take action to deal with it. I commend Fine Gael on bringing this issue to the floor of the House, and I confirm that the motion will receive the full support of the Labour Party.

Arthur Morgan (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Deputy Shortall for sharing time with me, and I commend the Fine Gael Party on bringing forward this motion. I support almost everything in it. It is a very broad motion and it is unfortunate that we do not have more time to debate it in the House, because each one of those items could occupy a good three hours debate in its own right.

The tsunami of unemployment that is occurring across the land is well known to every single Member of this House. Members must deal with a significant number of representations about it. First, somebody must suffer the trauma of being made unemployed, whether it is through a call to the office in the factory or through written notification. I am sure the shock is the same, irrespective of how the news is conveyed. It was bad enough at any time to be told that one is being made unemployed, but to be told in the current economic climate is truly a shock to the individuals and the families concerned. We all know that there is very little prospect of acquiring other employment, so the sentence is very severe.

The second trauma is trying to deal with the consequences of being made unemployed. One of the first consequences is to deal with the system and to get into the welfare office. I have been stopped on the street in Dundalk and Drogheda and asked for directions to the local social welfare office by natives of both towns. They never had any need for the office in the past, so they were never sure where it was. Another consequence of being made unemployed is the difficulty in meeting mortgage repayments and hold onto the family home. What about the car loan? The education of children is a financial challenge to any family. There are many schools that were involved in the book rental scheme, but I have been told by the management of a number of schools in my constituency that they are considering not running the book rental scheme any more due to the significant cutbacks to that scheme. It represented very poor vision on the part of the Government to cut back that scheme.

The next issue is school transport. When the fuel subsidy was cut back, the impact on families was absolutely huge. In some of my own constituents' cases, their transport bill went from €300 to €800 over the academic year. That is an absolutely huge cost, and if there are several children in a household, then we know the impact that can have.

A person who has just been made unemployed has to experience entering a social welfare office. Very often, there is just a single hatch for new claimants, so the person will have to join the queue. I received a phone call last Friday from a constituent who was concerned because her son had been queuing for one hour and 35 minutes at a single hatch to sign on and was number 38 in the queue on a Friday afternoon. She felt this was grossly unfair because she and her children, two of whom are now signing on, had paid their taxes and felt they deserved better treatment than this. It was their first time in the office and they were in a lengthy queue. That is certainly evidence of trauma.

When a person gets to the hatch and gets his or her claim processed, the next step is when to get funding. It can take up to 12 or 16 weeks for this, which seems to be the average at the moment. Some offices are making better progress than that, but because people are not getting quick payment, they must go to the community welfare officer. My experience has been that when the documentation making the claim arrives on the deciding officer's desk, minor matters can sometimes cause a huge delay. For example, people arriving at the hatch may not know that they should have some kind of photographic identification with them. They may not have utility bills, or other evidence required to satisfy the social welfare officers. These problems lead to more queuing and force people to come back another day and go around the circle again. My concern is that some deciding officers are really looking for any excuse to refuse the application. When that happens, as it does all too often, then the person is into the appeals system. Any poor crathur going into the appeals system is in serious trouble, because he or she will wait for months on end to get a decision.

I join with colleagues who sympathised with staff in the social welfare offices. I know a few of them personally, and there are times when they cannot get a break for a cup of tea. They are working through their breaks because they see the trauma in the faces of those in front of them. They are trying to work their way through this trauma, and I would describe that as grossly unfair. Community welfare officers have received no additional staff at all. That may be because they are hired by the HSE. We are all familiar with them and we all have had occasion to make representations to them. In many cases, these people also have to go out and hold clinics in other offices, which puts them under huge pressure.

I commend the Money Advice and Budgeting Service on its work, which is absolutely brilliant. The service is grossly understaffed and is under huge pressure. The Minister spoke about 252 people, but I wonder was she referring to 252 additional people. One element of the work done by MABS relates to the banks. I must come to Dublin next Friday with a constituent to negotiate with a bank on her behalf, as she is in serious difficulty due to the economic situation. It is ludicrous that we must travel with constituents to help them negotiate with banks. Something needs to be done with these banks to ease pressure on householders, rather than getting into this mess whereby public representatives must negotiate on their behalf.

I would have loved time to talk about debt collection, which is also a serious issue. People are going to prison for failure to repay debt. We will see if Seánie FitzPatrick and his friends will go to prison for their carry on, although I very much doubt it. However, there are people going to prison up for up to 20 days for very minor outstanding debts.