Dáil debates
Wednesday, 23 April 2008
Leaders' Questions
10:30 am
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is the Taoiseach's last day in this House in that role and I will have to pay tribute to him in a few minutes. I am sure he did not expect that on his last day as Taoiseach, the front page of a national newspaper would carry the story of a primary school that is forced to hold classes in a converted toilet. This is not the kind of situation our children should face in 2008 as education is fundamental to the kind of society and country we wish to become.
Two years ago the Minister for happiness wrote to the school in question and said work would start with immediate effect. Deputies Allen and Stanton received four derisory four word replies from the Department of Education and Science. The school raised â¬50,000 and made the site available, yet is on the front page of today's Irish Examiner holding classes in a converted toilet. That this should happen in 2008 is a disgrace. The Minister for happiness, happy children, happy parents and happy teachers, wrote two years ago saying building would begin with immediate effect, just before the general election.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny is not happy.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Brady was not happy before this either.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Ten years ago action was promised and two years ago it was promised with immediate effect. This is a commentary on our public services. The Minister of State may smile all he likes but the fact remains that 300 people per day lie on hospital trolleys, wards are being closed in Tallaght and at James Connolly Hospital and services are being stripped away in Monaghan and Navan and not being replaced. I raised a question on Leopardstown Park Hospital only two or three weeks ago but the Taoiseach did not get back to me yet. Yesterday Deputy Shatter pointed out that respite care beds will be withdrawn from the hospital from May, June and July and this is another disgraceful situation. I was handed a letter from a school in Wicklow today.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Can Deputy Kenny ask his question?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will ask it now. That school in Wicklow has postponed referrals of children between 16 and 18 years of age with special needs because there are 500 on the waiting list.
The Taoiseach recently said that his greatest regret from his time in office was the failure to build the national sports campus. I ask the Taoiseach, on this special morning, to revise that assessment and admit that his greatest regret from times of economic boom is his failure to use his authority to develop a health system that provides proper care and attention for young, old and middle-aged patients and an education system that provides a platform, suitable for 2008, that would allow our children to grow in confidence and compete in the big challenges they face in the years ahead. They should not, in 2008, have to attend classes in a converted toilet, as in Glenville national school.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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When I took over as Taoiseach ten projects per year were dealt with under the schools building programme, on average, and that was the contribution to capital projects. We now spend â¬4.5 billion under the national development plan investing in school buildings, refurbishing existing schools and providing new ones in developing areas. We have done this every year for the past seven or eight years and, between roofs, windows and so on, 1,500 projects are being undertaken.
I do not know why the school mentioned did not partake in any of the summer works projects or get a position on the capital programme because I do not know every one of the 4,500 school projects. I do know the investment we are putting in and I know the range of projects, which includes the refurbishment of buildings and the construction of new buildings. Thousands of minor works have been completed in schools in recent years, as have many large projects. Construction work this year, when completed, is expected to provide permanent accommodation for 20,000 pupils. When I took over as Taoiseach that figure stood at a few hundred pupils per year.
Improved forward planning has been put in place and there is greater co-operation between the Department of Education and Science and local authorities, which can be seen in the publication of area development plans. In the primary sector we have increased funding to disadvantaged areas significantly and have invested â¬800 million and thousands of teaching posts in tackling disadvantage at all levels. This includes pre-school education, school meals, books, smaller classes, home-school links, special literacy and numeracy programmes, homework clubs and third level access programmes, practically none of which existed a decade ago. My colleagues and I are proud of this.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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And everything is grand.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding Leopardstown Park Hospital, there is capital funding in this area and I have raised the issue that the Deputy brought up. This is not the only matter on the list admittedly â there are a number hospitals in the programme â but a few hundred million euro per year is being put into the development of such hospitals.
The Deputy mentioned waiting lists and other areas. The other day I reviewed the enormous increase in throughput of outpatients and inpatients in the accident and emergency departments in our hospitals. There are hundreds of thousands more visits than there were three years ago and this is linked to an increase in population.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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Not too many people are going into the accident and emergency department in Cork because it is closed.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is a new hospital in Cork with a new accident and emergency department. The Deputy should try to assist in dealing with staffing levels there because the matter would be simplified if excessively high staff levels were not sought.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose. The Minister for happiness has abandoned the summer works scheme.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Kenny, her title is the Minister for Education and Science.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It is the same person.
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In thousands of cases arrangements have been made for building works to go ahead but they have not proceeded. Deputy Hayes exposed the complete abdication of responsibility for special needs and autism by the Minister for Education and Science. The other day Deputy Quinn, in a devastating contribution, showed how the Minister for Education and Science could not answer how many prefabricated school buildings there are in 2008. Children having to go to school in converted toilets is not good enough.
The Minister for Health and Children, sitting beside the Taoiseach, is presiding over an absolute crisis in the health service which gets worse day by day. Maybe the Taoiseach is getting out in time. I do not know the full details of what will happen in the next three months.
In this final bout of Leaders' Questions with the Taoiseach, maybe he has regrets and things he wants to say. When he looks back at the unprecedented economic boom we have had, does he regret setting up the Health Service Executive in the way it was? As a person with empathy and compassion for people, I know the Taoiseach did not want to see how the executive has turned out. The way the executive was set up by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and Minister for Finance â who has turned a â¬4 billion Exchequer surplus into a â¬6 billion deficit â and the Minister for Health and Children, it was supposed to be the be-all and end-all of health reform and service delivery. Does the Taoiseach regret the manner in which it was set up? I know he has commented on other matters that, from his point of view, were not appropriate. Does he believe appointing a chief executive, a team and then amalgamating all the health boards was the way to go about this? Had he an opportunity, would he change that direction and base it on a different structure in the interest of patient care and safety and service delivery?
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Kenny will recall that some of his predecessors â admittedly not him at the time â and Members from my side pressed for the establishment of a unified health system. When the health strategy went through the House in 2001, there was unanimous agreement that the old health board system set up in the early 1970s under the Health Act was not adequate to deal with the diverse demands of primary care and community health services or to control 53 acute hospitals with 13,000 beds.
The health board system had wide ranges of grades for personnel and different working practices.
Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Nothing has changed.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was believed a unified system was the right way to proceed. Incidentally, several other countries in Europe are introducing unified systems of health care.
Deputy Kenny asked if there are difficulties with modernising, integrating and introducing standard practices to an old system that has been there in one form or another since the foundation of the State. It is a mammoth task. Deputy Kenny and all Members must acknowledge the hospital throughput, the capital programme for hospitals and the integration of hospital services.
When I started as Taoiseach, the big issue on Question Time was cardiovascular services with large waiting lists for treatment of up to four years.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach should face reality.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The reality is that people in the past ten years are living four years longer because we have a good health service.
Seymour Crawford (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I suppose the Taoiseach is responsible for that.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The fact that we have eliminated the cardiovascular surgery waiting listsââ
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Tell that to the cancer patients.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have eliminated the cardiothoracic surgery lists.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Go tell that to their families.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Our survival rates in all cancer treatments are far better than even five years ago. We have built the health services up with 130,000 people working in them. While there are administrative areas we have to deal with, the health services for the Irish people are better than ever.
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Go talk to the families of cancer patients.
Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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What has Deputy Kenny done in the past 11 years?
Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What about Glenville national school?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I am conscious that it falls to me to ask the last question the Taoiseach will reply to as Taoiseach in this House.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I have been thinking of something easy that I could ask him this morning. I have settled on a matter he has been asked on before on 25 April 2007, almost 12 months to the day. He got quite upset then, apologising to the people of Meath because they would not be able to vote electronically in the upcoming general election. Instead, they would have to use the peann luaidhe.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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It did not matter in the election, did it?
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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After the events of last Sunday in Parnell Parkââ
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Gilmore without interruption.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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After last Sunday's events, I would not expect the Taoiseach to be apologising to Meath people this morning.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I heard him yesterday encouraging his successor to get a new Government jet. As he is tidying up his affairs, will he decide what should be done with the electronic voting machines?
Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Where is the Minister for Transport, Deputy Noel Dempsey?
Fergus O'Dowd (Louth, Fine Gael)
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He can stand on them as his record.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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A couple of thousand clapped-out voting machines that cannot and will not be used is a terrible legacy for the Taoiseach to leave the people. In the couple of working days he has left in office, will he take out the peann luaidhe and draw a line under the electronic voting machines?
P J Sheehan (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Consign them to Hammond Lane.
Dinny McGinley (Donegal South West, Fine Gael)
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We could send them to Zimbabwe.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Send them to the constituency of the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government.
Johnny Brady (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputies will find this is more complicated.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thought I was going to be asked about Parnell Park for which I have no responsibility. To be honest â and I have to be totally honestââ--
Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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For the first time ever.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Since it is my last question as Taoiseach, it is only fair I should give Deputy Gilmore my best answer and best advice. My best advice is that since he could not beat me with the peann luaidhe, he should go to the old machines because he would have a far better chance with them.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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I have to remind the Taoiseach that on the day I was elected leader of my party he also said he saw out many of my predecessors. I think the peann luaidhe could serve me well for a long time to come yet.
There is a serious point to this. These machines cost â¬60 millionââ
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It costs â¬700,000 just to store them.
Eamon Gilmore (Dún Laoghaire, Labour)
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ââwhich I am sure the Taoiseach will acknowledge could have been better spent. It is two years since the Commission on Electronic Voting reported. It not only confirmed what those of us who had been critical of the particular system had said for a long time but added to it.
None of the Taoiseach's Ministers want to touch this. Every time the line Minister, Deputy Gormley, or his predecessors are asked about it, they run a mile. At some stage it will take a Minister to decide the inevitable on what we all know â these machines will not be used. Continuing to store them is adding more cost to the waste already incurred in the project. Somebody must decide to call it a day and that they will never be used. As the Taoiseach has a window for several weeks, he might unburden his ministerial colleagues with such a decision and write them off.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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The Taoiseach might go into the scrap business.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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The technology report showed it requires the development of new software for these machines to have the confidence of the House and the public. It is technically not difficult to do this. It means an enhancement of the machines and development of the software they use. All of the advice and reports state that this is possible to do. My view is that we are best doing this in the context of the electoral commission that will take over all of the responsibilities. Any attempt to do it another way will not find favour in this House. If it does not find favour in this House, we will be back in controversy.
It is a fact that â I would urge the House in this respect â practically every place in the world, with very few exceptions from the great democracies to the states of India to the poor of the world, is using technology systems.
Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is not true. They failed in Pennsylvania all day yesterday.
Tom Sheahan (Kerry South, Fine Gael)
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The Government should send them to Mugabe. He might get the result he wants.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Zimbabwe does not have it.
John O'Donoghue (Kerry South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach without interruption.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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Within the electoral commission and with the enhancement that has been identified in the software development, we should get on with it. It is not satisfactory as we go into the next decade that we are not using technology for electoral systems. We are using an old system that might be enjoyable, but it is a way of the past. As a country, we should be very proud of what we have achieved. We are a service country â 4% of the entire world's global services originate in this country. This is a huge achievement for the Irish economy. In our best areas â pharmaceutical, medical and information and communication technology â we should be seen to lead.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Government has squandered money.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is an affront to ourselves that, at a time when, for about ten years in a row, we have been either first or second in the export of software development globally, we are still using paper and pens.
Pádraic McCormack (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Government is wasting money.
Bernard Allen (Cork North Central, Fine Gael)
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They are Dutch machines.
Bertie Ahern (Dublin Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is far from the image of what we have built in this country. We should keep moving forward. I know the House will do that in the immediate future.