Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 16 July 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Equality
Child Protection Matters, Special Care and Special Emergency Care Arrangements: Tusla
2:00 am
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The item for consideration this morning is a discussion on child protection matters, special care and special emergency arrangements. We are joined at the meeting by representatives of Tusla, as follows: Ms Kate Duggan, CEO; Ms Rosarii Mannion, national director for people and change; Mr. Pat Smyth, national director for finance and corporate services; and Mr. Gerry Hone, national director of services and integration. They are all very welcome back to the committee. I congratulate them on the launch of their annual report yesterday.
Before we begin, I have a couple of housekeeping matters to go through. We have one member joining us on Teams. For that member, I give a reminder that the chat function should only be used to make the team on site aware of technical or urgent matters. There is a constitutional requirement for members to be present on the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings.
In advance of our witnesses delivering their opening statements, I advise them of the following in respect of parliamentary privilege. They are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Cathaoirleach, to ensure the privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. I ask them to bear in mind that if we are talking about specific locations, they are sometimes easily identifiable.
Ms Duggan will be allocated five minutes to deliver her opening statement, which will be followed by a question-and-answer session with our members. I invite her to deliver her opening statement.
Ms Kate Duggan:
I thank the Chair and the committee for the invitation to appear to discuss child protection matters, special care and special emergency arrangements. I am joined by my colleagues: Ms Rosarii Mannion, national director for people and change; Mr. Pat Smyth, national director for finance and corporate services; and Mr. Gerry Hone, national director of services and integration.
Tusla's mission is to support the safety and well-being of children, particularly those whose circumstances are complex or who need additional support. At the outset, it is important to highlight that staff across the country engage with tens of thousands of families every year and the majority of those interactions are positive and successful, helping people to grow up safely. As an agency, we responded to over 106,000 referrals in 2025, an increase of more than 10% since the agency was established in 2014, and almost 6,000 children and young people were in the care of Tusla. Almost nine in ten young people in the care of the State are living with loving foster carers and engaged in school and education or living in residential care homes, homes like yours or mine, where one, two, three or four young people are being looked after by caring, committed and dedicated staff.
At the end of quarter 3 of 2025, there were 2,985 young people receiving an aftercare service. Some 84% of those aged 18 to 22 in receipt of aftercare services are now in education and training. There has been a 500% increase in referrals to our separated children seeking international protection service. In 2025, there were almost 800 referrals to the service, with approximately 1,200 unaccompanied minors in care or accommodated by Tusla throughout 2025. Most of our work is preventative, supporting school attendance, ensuring childcare facilities are safe and helping families through difficult times before a crisis hits. We support thousands of families every year so that children can stay safely at home.
In relation to child safety work, we are challenged by the increasingly complex needs of a small cohort of vulnerable young people. We are seeing a marked increase in the number of children presenting with highly complex needs, including mental health challenges, substance misuse, disabilities, exploitation and behaviours linked to criminality.
In the area of special emergency arrangements, SEAs, we have acknowledged that due to our shortage of registered residential placements, we had to rely on these types of arrangements as an immediate place of safety for young people. However, we have made significant progress in how emergency placements for young people are provided and governed. From June 2026, no special emergency arrangements are used by the agency. All emergency placements instead operate as either registered private residential centres, Tusla emergency centres or private emergency placements, each with clear statutory oversight, governance and accountability.
In relation to special care, I fully acknowledge and sincerely regret the current situation where we are unable to fulfil our statutory obligations to provide timely access to special care for all young people subject to a High Court order and the impact this may have on these young people. This is because of inadequate staffing levels in special care to operate at full capacity. With the support of our parent Department, the Department of Children, Disability and Equality, we are completely focused on making every effort to increase our staffing levels in special care through expansion of qualifications, national and international recruitment campaigns, graduate sponsorship schemes, increasing third-level placements and the introduction of our social work apprenticeship and social care work-based learning programmes. We are more confident that these efforts in conjunction with the introduction of the new special care worker grade in 2025, as approved by Department of public expenditure and reform, and the new Tusla residential and special care training college, will see additional special care beds opened in 2026-27.
I have spoken publicly about the programme of reform under way across the agency since 2023. This has resulted in increased supply, recruitment and retention of staff, an increase in placement capacity, more robust oversight of third-party providers, digital transformation with the introduction of a single child and family record across all Tusla services and better access to more integrated community services for children and families across Ireland.
As an agency, we acknowledge that we continue to experience challenges in the context of such increased demand for our services and our inability to ensure that all children and families receive the right service at the right time. However, we are confident that as we continue to embed our reform programme, and with increased support, better inter-agency and intergovernmental policy commitments, that children in the care of the State should be prioritised for State services and children and families can be better supported in their communities so that all children and young people have the opportunity for better outcomes and brighter futures.
I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for the opportunity to engage today. I look forward to the committee's upcoming visit to our special care, residential care, separated children seeking international protection and emergency centres. I am happy to answer any questions members may have today.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We are also looking forward to our visit. I thank Ms Duggan for facilitating us and the members of the committee for agreeing to visit during recess. It is proposed to publish the opening statement to the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I remind members they will be allocated seven minutes speaking time. This allocation must include the response from the witnesses. I will allow a brief round of questioning, if members indicate they want that. I ask members when putting their questions to adhere strictly to the agenda item under consideration and to direct their question to the witness they wish to respond.
Daniel Ennis (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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This is my first time meeting Tusla and I am looking forward to working with it. I thank Ms Duggan for the opening statement. I see Tusla as a safety net for our young people. There are obvious tears in that safety net. Working together, we can hopefully mend them and provide better care and service options for our young people, especially the vulnerable and those who find themselves in precarious positions.
I have a couple of questions to get a better understanding. There was data relating to the number of children in care in the opening statement. Could Ms Duggan provide the committee with the most recent figures for children and young people in foster care, registered private residential centres, Tusla emergency centres and private emergency placements? On the ending of the special emergency arrangements, what structures, commitments and protections are we going to get to ensure that it is not just a rebranding or a changing of the jersey? I would like to get a better understanding of that.
Regarding Tusla's budget for registered placements, will Ms Duggan indicate whether the budget for capital expenditure has increased, decreased or remained constant over the years? As of 5 July, 78 young people were in temporary emergency accommodation, which was two fewer than the previous week, as was mentioned. Where are they placed? In what constituencies, cities or counties are they placed, without giving the exact address for obvious reasons?
The preventative piece is very important. I do a lot of work around preventative measures with children, including children in care, children in precarious positions and children in forced criminalisation, such as grooming by drug gangs. We know that children in care and the vulnerable children we are dealing with are more susceptible to that. Regarding Tusla's engagement with schools and services, in my constituency of Dublin Central, Young People at Risk, YPAR, do a lot of work with young people at risk. What is Tusla's engagement with YPAR and the other services like? When I say "services", I mean State bodies, national governing bodies, NGBs, and community groups in and around the Dublin Central area because we know the number of children living there who find themselves in emergency and homeless accommodation.
Ms Kate Duggan:
We would be delighted to meet the Deputy separately to go through any particular issues relating to his constituency or more generally. I will provide very high-level data. At the end of May 2026, 5,948 children were in the care of the State. That is about 3% more than the same period last year so we are seeing a marginal increase in the number of children coming into care. Of those numbers, almost 86% were in foster care, which is something we are very proud of. It is the highest level in Europe. There is a real focus on continuing to increase recruitment and retention of foster carers so that children in care can be in foster care. Out of that, 626 children, or about 11%, are in residential care across the community and voluntary sector, Tusla and the private sector. There are 255 young people who would be in care but might be in a disability-specific centre, supported lodgings, a temporary emergency or emergency placement or an out-of-State placement. We can give the Deputy a full breakdown if he wants those figures. Mr. Smyth will talk the Deputy through the budget for capital expenditure.
On temporary emergency placements, in child protection there is always a need for emergency placement if a section 12 is invoked by An Garda Síochána. If there is an immediate breakdown in a home, residential or foster care placement, we have to have that available. To put it in some context, about 1% of children in care need access to an emergency placement. This week, 58 young people are in what we describe as a temporary emergency placement.
I will use a very high-level example to reassure the Deputy that it is not a changing of the narrative or a changing of the jersey. At the end of June, there were 76 young people in a special emergency arrangement and rightly so. The public, this committee, the Government and everybody wanted to make sure because the biggest concern we had was that those placements were not registered or regulated so there was no external oversight. While Tusla had internal oversight of them, there was no external oversight. What has changed now is that about one third of those young people are now in children's residential centres so those centres are registered. We have worked with those providers. New providers did enter the market and we have spent the past 12 to 18 months working with those providers to help them achieve the standards they needed to achieve to become registered centres.
One third of the young people in question are in registered centres which, like any children's residential service, are subject to inspection and monitoring by the Tusla alternative care inspection monitoring service. It is important to say that this is the service that monitors and inspects every private or voluntary centre. We would like it to be HIQA and have advocated for that function to transfer to HIQA. HIQA is aware of that and that is something we really want to push for and to happen.
The next third of young people are in centres that were unable to achieve registration. The providers were unable to achieve registration so we have taken those under the governance of Tusla and they are now subject to inspection and monitoring by HIQA like any Tusla residential centre.
Regarding the other third of young people, any newly opened centre has 45 days to register.
There may be an emergency tonight. The young person involved would need to be placed in a centre. It may not be centre that is registered today, but within 45 days it has to be registered under the Act or that child would be transferred to a Tusla-governed centre. That is the timeline of 45 days, which was not in place before and in the context of which we would engage with the provided involved in order to seek to support them to become registered. At a very high level, that is the difference. All the young people involved are in those placements. Mr. Smyth might talk about the budget capital expenditure.
We have run out of time, but one of the priorities for us, work under the reform programme, regarding the engagement is that commissioning is now devolved regionally and at network level. Every network will be working with community groups and with the community and voluntary sector to understand what the needs of the local population are and whether providers have been engaged. If it would be helpful, I would be happy to meet with the Deputy separately to discuss the matter.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will let Mr. Smyth reply to Deputy Ennis in the second round.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. Social care workers have raised concerns about the use of security personnel. They report that security personnel are stepping in to restrain children before a full therapeutic intervention can be carried out. The deployment of untrained security staff is having a serious effect in the context of the ability of social care workers to perform their duties. There are reports of security staff removing social care workers from rooms against their will. There are concerns that while staff need be protected, there is uncertainty among security workers as to when intervention is required in these settings. What training is given to security personnel from Tusla before they are deployed in these extremely challenging settings?
Ms Kate Duggan:
I am concerned to hear what the Deputy had to say. In terms of our experience, as he rightly stated, we have an obligation to keep children. However, under the health and safety Act, we also have an obligation to keep staff safe. We have had significant incidents of violence, harassment and aggression within the service. That is not in any way to put blame on the young people involved. Those young people have experienced significant trauma. Their behaviours reflect an escalation in that trauma. Often, they act out. Injuries may be caused to staff as a result. When we looked at this, we found that there was a need to employ close protection personnel, which is how they are described. We went out to tender for the contract and the process in that regard was successful. These personnel are only used in exceptional circumstances. They do not replace staff. We have worked very hard with HIQA on a policy to ensure that they meet all the standards involved and our regulatory requirements. That was very important. HIQA is the regulator and the independent voice of safety in respect of children and young people.
What we have seen is a significant reduction in the level of violence, harassment and aggression. We only bring security personnel in on an exceptional basis. They are additional to our rota and are not counted as staff. They are there to protect staff. They receive therapeutic crisis intervention training. What we have heard is that staff are very slow to want to engage with this, but the request for it comes from the service. The service comes and says that it is concerned about the safety of staff. We went through a tender process to ensure that we had companies that were used to this work. These personnel are only deployed in line with the policy agreed with HIQA.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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How many incidences of physical restraint have occurred in residential areas in the past two years?
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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How many people were restrained by security personnel as opposed to registered social care workers?
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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I have not been told that time is up, so I will keep on going. The Cathaoirleach can keep me straight.
Social care workers have expressed concerns about the new Tusla college. They say that those who graduate from it will be deployed to the most serious and challenging settings but that they will not even be CORU registered or regulated. Will Ms Duggan explain how this prioritises the safety of children?
Ms Rosarii Mannion:
I am happy to meet with the Deputy and to give him a tour of the college if he would like. The college was established primarily in the interests of us being self-sufficient and to facilitate us in producing our own pipeline of staff. The curriculum is vigorous. It involves three months in the college and three months in placement, followed by an assessment. If colleagues are deemed suitable to work, they are then deployed to various settings, including special care and other settings, across the agency. We have found so far that the staff coming through are of a high quality and are working very well. There have been no incidents of violence, harassment and aggression. This is broader than special care and social care; it is about a building platform to bride the gap between college and the workplace in order to ensure that, as much as possible, we are setting new graduates up for success.
Regarding the question on qualified social care workers, we have arrangements whereby we have expanded the qualifications. Anybody on expanded qualifications may work in our setting. Only somebody who is registered with CORU as a social care worker, which is a title protected in law since last year, may call themselves a social care worker. However, we are moving towards multidisciplinary team working. We want colleagues with addiction, community and youth work and, indeed, sporting qualifications. There are a broad range of qualifications there that make up the composition of effective multidisciplinary teams that can then engage and meet the holistic needs of children. It is not always a case that one single discipline can meet the needs of children who we serve. As the Deputy knows, the needs are complex and far-reaching. The best model is a fully functioning multidisciplinary team. From the evidence, we know that what colleagues want are safe places of work, safe systems and safe and effective colleagues. That is the model that we work through in terms of our people's strategy and, in particular, the use of our Tulsa internal training college.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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Regarding the thousands of social care workers who have gone through registering with CORU, does this mean nothing for them or will there be a distinct forward transitional period of them moving over and enhancing their qualifications?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses and thank Ms Duggan for her opening statement. Regarding some of the data in the opening statement, the agency responded to over 106,000 referrals in 2025. What proportion of those referrals met the threshold for the assignment of a social worker?
Ms Kate Duggan:
I will give the Deputy very broad numbers. We know that about 60% of our referrals relate to children, young people and families who require that early intervention and support perspective. At any one time within the past year, there were about 23,000 children and young people that were open to social work and needed a social worker. In the context of allocation, what we have to do is make sure that we prioritise the allocation of social workers to those who most need them . We have spoken here before about the challenge that we have with the supply of social workers across the State. It is very clear that social workers can only do certain statutory duties. This comes back to what my colleague Ms Mannion spoke about in terms of expanded qualifications. At any one time, about 90% of our children in care have allocated social workers. Where a child does not have an allocated social worker, they may have an allocated social care worker to meet their needs, but that person will not perform the statutory duties of a social worker. In the context of our overall caseload, about 78% or 79% of children open to our safety teams would be allocated social workers. The others would be allocated social care workers to meet their needs.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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To be clear, if a referral is made where there is a concern that a child is at risk of abuse-----
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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They are screened by a social worker.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That social worker will decide whether the referral requires further intervention.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Are all those calls screened by a social worker?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Very good.
The opening statement states:
Almost nine in ten young people in the care of the State are living with loving foster carers and engaged in school and education or living in residential care homes ...
Is that one in ten who is living in a residential care home?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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So nine in ten are with foster carers and one in ten is in a care home.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, and the description of them is "where one, two, three or four young people are being looked after by caring, committed and dedicated staff", but the setting is a residential setting.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Last week we had the Children's Residential and Aftercare Voluntary Association, CRAVA, in with us. It had a number of concerns, one being that it felt a rebalance was required of preference towards the voluntary sector capacity to reduce over-reliance on for-profit care. Do we have the data as to those facilities Ms Duggan has described, "where one, two, three or four young people are being looked after by caring, committed and dedicated staff"? What proportion of those settings is run by the voluntary sector and what proportion is run by for-profit organisations?
Ms Kate Duggan:
At a point in time in the year, if we took 535 young people who are in residential care, 71 of them were in community and voluntary sector placements. Then there was the percentage, which Mr. Smyth can give the Deputy, who were in Tusla centres and then the percentage who were in private centres. We set out about three years ago to seek to rebalance the provision of residential care away from private residential into community and voluntary and Tusla-led facilities, and that is a commitment we hold dear. What has been challenging for us, on one hand, is the number of separated children. I said that 1,200 had to be accommodated last year alone. As to how quickly that came upon us, the private sector was able to scale at a quicker capacity than the public sector in terms of having the infrastructure available. It is also important to say that we have engaged all the time with the community and voluntary sector to seek to increase the provision of care that it provides and it has not been able to do that. Currently, in July, it is funded for 94 beds. We fund it irrespective of whether the bed is occupied or not. That is a challenge. Within the private sector we pay only for a bed that is occupied. Out of the 94 beds it was funded for, it was able to have only 71 of those beds open, and that is a concern for us.
In addition, I listened to the hearing last week and, as I said, we are very much supportive of the community and voluntary sector, but we have seen in the past 12 months that the community and voluntary sector has discharged nine young people out of its services into a special emergency arrangement. It is very important that we work collectively to recognise the challenges that are there, both from the point of view of the sector being able to recruit staffing and in terms of capital expenditure. That is the biggest challenge it has.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is staffing the reason there are 23 beds vacant?
Ms Kate Duggan:
Some of it is to do with staffing and some of it is to do with the fact that the sector feels there is a risk to the health and safety of its staff who are there. All of us are challenged by the fact that we have responsibility to children and young people, that we hold them in their stable placement, that we provide wraparound supports, that we support them and that we do not discharge them into special emergency arrangements.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Duggan said 12 were discharged.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Excuse me. That was in 2025.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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How many are residing in Tusla centres?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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If I may ask about the 1,200 unaccompanied minors in care, are they part of the 6,000 young people in total? No. They are additional to the 6,000.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Tusla has responsibility for 7,200 young people.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Over the course of the year. Okay.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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They are referred to Tusla from-----
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is that because of Tusla's remit specifically to care for the children?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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They are not being referred over any concern for their safety or health or well-being.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. Last week was really important in that CRAVA was in and it outlined that if we are looking at aftercare, it is about the provision of a service rather than about money. Ms Duggan said there were young people who were moved from a voluntary and community setting into special emergency care. For that to happen, I imagine that things must have been very difficult and maybe the ratio of staff to children was at play, although I do not know. In fairness to CRAVA, it said last week that Tusla is very supportive but that it is running on a very tight budget. Money is always limiting it in developing its own capacity as regards buildings. When young people are in care, would the witnesses say that the voluntary and community sector or Tusla itself always comes ahead of the private sector?
Ms Kate Duggan:
As I said, we want to expand Tusla or the community and voluntary sector over the private sector. That is our absolute commitment as a public service. It is very important to say that we pay the community and voluntary sector a grant, irrespective of the number of young people who are on placement. That is something we do not do in the private sector. In addition, the cost we give the community and voluntary sector is actually more than that which we give the private sector, not just in terms of bed occupancy levels. Mr. Smyth can give the detail if the Senator wants it. The cost of a private placement works out just slightly lower than the cost of a Tusla or a community and voluntary one. We also have a scheme in place with the community and voluntary sector whereby if there is particular damage done to a property or an instance of concern, the provider can apply for funding. I recognise the challenge the community and voluntary sector faces. We value the relationship with it and we want to support it to scale, but it is struggling, I think, to get the staffing. More important, I think the biggest challenge for the community and voluntary sector is not having the ability to fund capital investment in terms of building residential homes.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Whose responsibility is that, though? Surely it is not the sector's. If it gets a certain amount of money, is it for Tusla to say to the Department that it has to provide more money? If you are measuring key performance indicators or looking at outcomes, is it just based on cost-----
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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-----or is it based on social outcomes as well?
Ms Kate Duggan:
Yes. God, it would never be a decision just around cost. We are saying the principle we have is that, as a public sector body, we want further investment. We want to rebalance the provision of care into Tusla statutory centres and community and voluntary centres. They are separate entities, and there are separate governance structures and separate boards. It is a wider discussion about whether the State will invest capital in separate entities. That is a wider discussion about the State's decision around capital investment in the community and voluntary sector.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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If religious organisations had buildings available, would it be an option for them to work with the voluntary and community sector to increase its capacity? Is it Tusla that is looking to increase that capacity? The last thing we want to do is go down the route of private sector provision for the most vulnerable children in the State.
At all costs, we should avoid giving that over to private companies because their ultimate game is to make money. That is what a private company does. Are there ways to work around this, perhaps with other Departments, so capacity can be increased within the voluntary and community sector in terms of buildings?
Ms Kate Duggan:
I suppose it is about what is within our control. We worked a lot with the voluntary sector in 2023 and 2024 in terms of the cost-of-living increase and the inflationary measures, and we secures an extra €5.2 million for the providers we work with to support them to bridge some of that funding gap. As part of the Workplace Relations Commission agreement, additional funding has been given for staffing levels. In terms of the capital infrastructure we get now, we are only starting. From 2018 to 2023, Tusla did not have the full capital investment it needed to open additional residential units. It is costly to open them. We have invested and opened our own statutory residential units over that period, which has been great. A decision will have to come, from beyond Tusla, around the State's position on capital investment in the community and voluntary sector. We will work with that, obviously. We advocate for and represent the community and voluntary sector all the time.
Where possible, particularly in our separated children service, we have put a hybrid model in place. That is a Tusla-owned building, but one of the community and voluntary providers is staffing and running it for us. We are looking at any opportunity to be able to do that. CRAVA, or any of the community and voluntary sector providers, would recognise that capital investment is the most significant barrier to being able to scale their capacity.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Exactly. The providers said that themselves. Should this committee be contacting the Department to ask why it is not funding this capital expenditure? Ultimately, we do not want the care of children to be given over to private providers. The question we have to raise as a committee is whether the State has a long-term plan for children in care.
Ms Kate Duggan:
The first thing to say about the long-term plan is that the Department of children is finalising the whole-of-government alternative care policy, which we have contributed to. CRAVA and wider stakeholders have all contributed to that. We are really looking forward to seeing that policy and whole-of-government commitment on the provision of care to children across the State. Within that, we would hope to see prioritisation given across Government Departments to children in care, whether that involves access to housing or health services and maybe decisions around capital investment.
The community and voluntary sector is a small one in terms of the provision of residential facilities. It is about looking at what that sector's capacity is. It certainly has additional capacity in the aftercare space. We work with a huge number of community and voluntary services, almost 500, in respect of the provision of community services. It is a huge partnership for us. It is a more specific matter for the residential aspect. The cost of opening a children's residential home that is compliant with the standards expected by HIQA and under the regulations is a significant investment.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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If we look at-----
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Cosgrove. Her time is up.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I thank everyone for being here this morning and for the opening statement and briefing document. I will come back to the residential services provided by the voluntary and community sector in particular. The last time Ms Duggan was here the point was made that the sector has not been able to expand. With respect, it is obvious that the voluntary and community sector has not been able to expand. The providers make no profit and have no surplus. Any unspent money is returned. They physically have no way to do that. In fairness to them, they were clear when they were here last week in laying that at the Department's door and not Tusla's in terms of funding. At my request, the committee has written to the Minister asking her to look at greater funding specifically for that sector in the next budget. That is very important. The providers' hands are tied.
In terms of beds funded and beds not opened, I visited one of the homes and it is very much like walking into a family home. There is capacity for four children per house. If a child is referred to one of these homes and that child has behavioural issues, the children already in the home naturally have to be considered because the environment is so compact and its nature is different from the environment in a wider centre. It is important to make this point in respect of what Ms Duggan has said. Interestingly enough, she referred to staffing. Staffing was not raised to any great extent. I have met CRAVA separately. These providers actually hold their staff fairly well. The staff I met had 100 years of experience among them, as did many of those who were here last week.
The community and voluntary providers also raised issues with the system as it is. If they receive a referral, they cannot accept that referral, and nobody wants to be in that position. Weeks and weeks are wasted with an over-and-back process. Tusla looks and the providers look, and a system is in place, and that is fine. The providers have a bed vacant, but because it takes so long when they refuse, they are left with a vacant bed they do not really want. Perhaps the system could be looked at. It is something the providers have flagged. There should be an element of trust in cases where a provider cannot accept a child. Tusla should acknowledge that it is not doing that willy-nilly, and if it cannot accept a child, it cannot accept that child. Rather than having a bed empty for weeks when there are more children on that list, perhaps we could be a bit more efficient. I ask Ms Duggan to look at that.
Ms Duggan said that Tusla engages all the time with the community and voluntary sector. When did she last meet CRAVA? How often are these meetings? I ask because my understanding was that there were quarterly meetings at the beginning. I stand to be corrected on that, however. As far as I understand, these meetings have not been happening. Where there are issues, it would make sense to meet, sit down, discuss the fact that 70 of 90 beds are open and determine why it is the case. It would make sense to have that engagement and conversation, but I am not sure that is happening. That is to the detriment of the providers and of Tusla. If these meetings are not happening, it would be helpful to get them back on track.
Ms Kate Duggan:
Regarding the four-bed unit the Deputy described, it is the same for the Tusla centres, which I hope she will get to visit in two weeks. It is the same for the private sector. That is where children live now. They do not live in centres; they live in homes. The challenge we all have is that, where we do not have placements, we have to look at what can be done. There may be a behavioural challenge, but it is about how we look at that from the point of view of the risk. We have to work with that child and the support services to allow us to say we are still going to take that young person because we are not going to put them into a temporary emergency placement. We have to look at that in the round. We all face the same challenges. Across the community and voluntary sector, the private sector and Tusla, we do not want children in temporary emergency placements. We want those homes at full occupancy, with additional supports put in around the child, if needed. It is important to say that.
In terms of the efficiency of the process, I assure the Deputy that we spend every day trying to make sure every bed is occupied. We are talking about approximately 60 young people out of the 6,000 in care who do not have a permanent home, which is what we want for them. The rounded view of the issue always needs to be looked at.
In terms of engagements, CRAVA does not represent all our community and voluntary providers. In 2026, to date, there have been three meetings with CRAVA. We have met the group three times. I have not met the group since 2025. I met it two or three times in 2025, in Portarlington and Athlone, and I cannot remember where the third visit was. We also have a children's residential services, CRS, employers' forum that we set up with the community and voluntary sector, across the community, Tusla and the private sectors. There were seven meetings in 2025 with those providers. There have been three meetings to date. The forum looks at wider staffing issues, staffing qualifications, ratios, terms and conditions, training and development, and all of that. So far in 2026, there have been 22 meetings with the 11 providers that we work with in the community and voluntary sector through our service level agreements. While CRAVA is a representative group of a small number of providers, it is also important to say that individual providers have individual issues.
We have also set up a new forum, which was very important, involving the chairs of the boards of directors of the community and voluntary sector. It considers some of the issues that existed around things like capital infrastructure and governance. The forum is headed by Tusla's director of children's residential services, who is the most appropriate person, and also includes our head of commissioning, our residential services finance manager and our commissioning lead. We had meetings with the chairs of the boards of those residential providers in November 2025, March 2026 and May 2026 and there will be another one in September 2026.
The message of non-engagement between Tusla and the sector is one that is a little bit disingenuous.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I take all of that. That is why I wanted to put them to Ms Duggan. I appreciate that.
If a child with behavioural issues is in a private-run service and needs additional services, the private service can come to Tusla and look for a line of money to support that and put in whatever is needed. Can the voluntary sector do that?
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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The voluntary and community sector can get additional money for a child beyond what their weekly----
Ms Kate Duggan:
A difference is that they can also get money, which the private sector cannot, for property damage or emergency repairs. That is built into the cost of the private provision. Within the community and voluntary sector at the moment, it is approximately €1.3 million a year for four beds, irrespective of occupancy levels. For the private sector, that is approximately €1.25 million.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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There is a process that takes a number of weeks if a referral is refused. Could that be looked at?
Ms Kate Duggan:
It can. A child can be refused but another child would be named very quickly. As the Deputy knows, we would never assure her that every system affecting every child was perfect on every occasion, but we have daily data now where we look at occupancy levels. I am very happy to share a report like this with the committee that sets out on a daily level all of our occupancy levels across all of the sectors. We have even advertised for another post to look at this. We want 99% or 100% of our beds filled every night because young people deserve to be in a registered residential home.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being here. When we had CRAVA here last week, I spoke to it about aftercare. I believe it was Mr. Gordon Hill who said that even the word "aftercare" was not appropriate and described how inadequate some people felt aftercare was at the moment. From speaking to different people, I feel it is very inflexible. For example, a child in care who finishes education, goes to work and then wants to return to education is told that they will have to give up work for 11 months before they can access that. I wanted to ask the witnesses about this, starting with the name. Are there any plans or moves to change it and make it more descriptive and positive? To improve aftercare, is there any consultation ongoing or has any been done with foster carers and the children who are coming out of care?
Ms Kate Duggan:
It is important to say that aftercare has been there traditionally because the legislation and regulations refer to aftercare post 18 years of age. We implement Government policy in terms of legislation and policy on children and young people being supported in aftercare up to the age of 23 if they are in education and training. One of the challenges, certainly when I came to the agency and just before that, was around the recognition that these young people, the same as any young person, may not have been ready to stay in education and training or to go to formal third level education. We have put a lot of supports into organisations like Way 2 Work, where young people over the age of 18 are not ready to go into what would be perceived as third level education but are engaged in training, for example, Safe Pass courses or training supporting them to work in construction. We make sure that all of those young people are considered to be in education and training and are supported. I provided some data earlier. We know that over 80% of young people in aftercare are now in education and training, which is very important. My colleague, Mr. Hone, might want to come in on aftercare.
Mr. Gerry Hone:
There are approximately 3,000 young people in receipt of a leaving and aftercare service from the agency. I agree with the Deputy about the name being far from ideal. I know that is being addressed within the Department and the alternative care strategy. That has had some discussion and there is a group looking at it. However, because the title is embedded in legislation, guidance and everything else, it would mean quite a lot of change to change it. It would have to be planned very carefully and might even need some language to be changed in legislation as well. That is the difficulty. I agree that it is far from ideal in terms of the title.
From the age of 16, a leaving and aftercare plan begins to be developed for every young person who is in care. Each network has a steering group that looks at the plan for young people leaving care. When there are specific needs around health, disability or housing, there is a steering group put in place to make sure that the young person's needs are met within the plan when they leave. A lot of young people stay with their foster carers. There is a high percentage, like our own children, who will stay at home. It is their home, it is their care placement. That is supported fully by the agency.
The Deputy mentioned an anomaly in terms of somebody not being told that they were not entitled to something. Our policy is not so strict that we cannot look at individual circumstances and, given the circumstance, identify the best response to that young adult in that situation to help them move on. I regularly deal with requests that fall outside the policy on one level to actually look at such situations and see if we can do anything about them. Generally, we reach solutions. I am happy to discuss all that with the Deputy separately, no problem.
Ms Kate Duggan:
The Deputy asked about engagement with foster carers. I have just finished engagements all over the country with foster carers. We fund Empowering People in Care, EPIC, and I am meeting its youth council next week. The issues that are raised from that policy perspective are on extending the age of aftercare beyond 23. That has been widely acknowledged by young people who are seeking that as a policy change. There are also the challenges they face, similar to other young people, in being able to access mental health services, if there are issues around addiction, and also the housing challenges that are facing all young people within society currently. They are probably the top three things that would be flagged to me in terms of the challenges they face.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Sticking with the issue of aftercare services, I have only just got to scan yesterday's report and have not read through it completely. It indicates that 43% remained with their carers. What is the breakdown of the "14% other"?
Ms Kate Duggan:
I do not have that data. I can get the exact breakdown for the Deputy. When we talk about "other" in that context, for example, we fund some of the community and voluntary sector where there are dedicated supports for young people in aftercare who may be experiencing some complexities in terms of mental health or addiction. Some of them may be in an addiction service. That is just a very high-level example. I do not want to be rustling papers but I can get the breakdown of the 14% for the Deputy.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Duggan.
Mr. Gerry Hone:
There is a cohort that requires specialist services, especially under the disability heading. There will be some young people in specialist disability centres as well when they turn 18 because that is seen as their need.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh Kate Duggan agus an fhoireann uilig. The special emergency arrangements have been completely factored out at this point. I believe everyone is glad to see that. There are 78 children and young people in temporary emergency placements. Is the difference that those placements have HIQA inspections?
Ms Kate Duggan:
I explained it earlier but yes, there are 56 today in placements. When we changed SEAs, 20 of those providers or centres became registered centres so they are like any children's residential home. Of other 56 young people about half are in a centre Tusla has taken over the governance and oversight of, which means it is subject to HIQA inspection and monitoring, which is what we wanted to happen. As for the others, under the Act we can have temporary emergency centres but the young person can only be placed in that centre for a maximum time of 45 days until that centre achieves registration or else the young person moves to one of the centres that is under Tusla's governance.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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They are like a temporary SEA, they just cannot continue the way they did but-----
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----they are on the way to being recognised.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is good. As much as we want these factored out, they were born from an emergency need. It has been said in general terms that at times the threshold for kids being taken into care has probably risen in the last while. I get the work Tusla is going to do from the point of view that in the best-case scenario it maintains the family unit and all the rest of it, but needs fall into this. Has that created an issue in the last while in the sense the agency did not have the SEAs as a means of dealing with more complex cases? I would like to know the number of social workers we have and by how many we are still short, the same for social care workers and then also foster carers. I am working on the basis they are still about 500 short.
Ms Kate Duggan:
Mr. Hone will be happy to talk about the concern the Deputy is expressing about children coming into care. I referenced earlier we are seeing an increase in the number of children coming into care but I recognise there is an increase in the population, so we have to contextualise that. Mr. Hone can come in quickly and then Ms Mannion can talk the Deputy through the staffing numbers.
On foster carers, we have set out the numbers there. We have seen an increase for the first time in a number of years. It is a small increase of 12 but we are putting a significant amount of work into fostering. We talk about the fact 87% of children in care are in foster care and we are a European leader within that. We would like that to be higher. We would like to get back up to 90% or 91%. For that we would need about another 480 or 500 foster families. That would take us far beyond any international number. We are cognisant that is very ambitious but that is what we work to.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Tusla does not have full control over selling that, because obviously there are pieces that foster carers have requested that need governmental interventions.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I get that.
Mr. Gerry Hone:
I thank the Deputy for his question. I think he asked whether the possibility that we might not have the special emergency arrangements could create a problem. The service has not gone away. This service is still available but we now have it in a regulated space. As such there is a process around it and for providers there are expectations around approval when they come in to a temporary emergency arrangement. It is under section 36(1)(d) of the Act. There is a set amount of time in which they have to apply for registration. There is a certain amount of time in which they have to achieve that registration. If they cannot, then it comes under Tusla governance and hence HIQA, because it has come in. All the time in the background we are trying to increase our capacity for emergency provision internally. We are in the process of buying properties, setting up emergency services and we are about to go out to tender on the provision for emergency beds in the system. On our reform programme, and Ms Mannion has already alluded to this, when a case comes in and we are looking at the needs of young person we are broadening our skills base through social care workers, social care leaders, family support workers and social workers. They are all working together and under joint protocols with the Garda and the HSE-----
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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But we do not have enough of them.
Ms Rosarii Mannion:
I thank the Deputy for his question. We have more social workers and social care workers in the agency than we ever had but of course we need more. At the end of March we had 1,713 social workers and 1,307 social care workers. At today's date we are looking to recruit in the region of 450 social workers and social care workers combined. We have an outstanding resource-----
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What is the breakdown of that? Is it about 300 and 150?
Ms Rosarii Mannion:
We have an outstanding resource allocation model where we can get down to very granular detail on where we need the posts, caseload allocation, different indices on deprivation, etc. We are very conscious of course the supply of social workers is limited across the State. We have been out there. We have set up our own internal training college to be self-sufficient. We have our apprenticeship schemes in both social work and social care. At today's date we are moving towards having 193 apprentices between social work and social care combined. Over the next year or two we will have doubled the supply. That is not to say there will be enough as obviously social issues continue to grow and we are challenged, but within the agency we are doing everything possible to plug those gaps and we are funded to do so.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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The joys of being one of the last is that a lot of what I wanted to ask has been covered by my colleagues. I thank the witnesses for coming in, for their opening statement and for the great work they do. The agency often gets bad press but I acknowledge it does a lot of good work and it certainly is doing the best it can, which is all that can be asked.
On early intervention, Tusla reports a marked increase in children presenting with complex needs, including mental health difficulties, etc. What additional supports are required to ensure these children receive appropriate care and treatment before the situation escalates into special care or an emergency placement?
Ms Kate Duggan:
I referenced already the whole-of-government approach to alternative care. There are 6,000 children in the care of the State and we believe they should be prioritised across Departments for services. The State is their corporate parent and if we were the parent of a child who needed additional supports, we would be looking to get those for them and that is something we would love to see in the alternative care policy. Outside of that, obviously the responsibility for the provision of mental health, disability and addiction services lies with the HSE and we recognise it is struggling with the demand for its services and there are waiting lists for those services. We advocate for children to be able to access them but we have also started to increase the therapeutic services we can provide to children and young people coming into care. We have been funded for six of what we would call generic therapeutic teams. We want children coming into care to get a therapeutic assessment as part of their care plan to be able to support their care plan. That is not to say it replaces any access they might need to specialist disability or mental health services, so we would love to see the expansion and growth of that service, as well as funding. We have also had a huge amount of investment in our specialist therapeutic services and we have really welcomed that in relation to our Barnahus service, which members may be familiar with in terms of children who have been sexually abused, and our NIAPP service that looks at young people who are showing indicators of sexualised or harmful behaviour. We are committed and want to continue to work on the development and investment in therapeutic services more broadly across the State and in supporting us to deliver better care planning for children in care.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Duggan. I would also like the witnesses to expand on the agency's problems with recruitment and retention of staff. I am aware they have spoken about it already but I would like some more information.
Ms Rosarii Mannion:
I thank the Senator. Recruitment and retention remain an ongoing challenge. We have a people strategy with eight strategic objectives and recruitment and retention are the key priorities there. In terms of recruitment, we know the supply is inadequate so we have done everything possible, as I said earlier, to become self-sufficient with our training college bursary sponsorship. In addition to that we create the conditions whereby staff want to stay in the agency. There are some things within our control and some without our control. Pay and conditions are external to our control, so we are very focused on creating an environment that is as good as it possibly can be. We provide on-site counselling, employee assistance programmes, health and well-being, coaching, mentoring and a really good induction programme, You Start.
If we think that people are getting into difficulty or they are challenged we try to get in early. We look at redeployment and rotations. We are just trying to be as proactive as we possibly can be. Every year we undertake an employee survey. Despite the sometimes negative publicity that we get, the experience of our employees, as reported by themselves, is very positive. Employees were given the option to describe in narrative terms their experience of the environment. The top three that came out from the employees themselves – from 30,000 descriptors – is that we are a learning and developing agency; we are friendly; we are supportive and; the environments are respectful, so we are doing everything we can there both in terms of recruitment and retention. We undertake exit interviews to hear from staff when they are leaving to see what we can learn and if there are things we could have done better. We find the top three themes coming through on exits are different career opportunities, the emotional impact of the work and opportunities to travel.
While our retention figures are improving all the time, they are slower than we would like. It is a very challenged market. There are plenty of opportunities out there but we are pleased that we are moving in a positive trajectory.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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Is Ms Mannion happy with the direction of travel?
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Mannion. Could I also ask her to expand please on the interim protections that are there for people waiting for special care placements? What happens if the placements are not available?
Mr. Gerry Hone:
That is no problem. I chair a weekly meeting to look at the needs of the young people who are waiting for a bed in special care and have been approved through the courts for a bed. It is very important because generally those young people are not engaging very well with the services and it is very hard to get co-operation from them. The purpose of my meeting, which is attended by the regional chief officers and the area managers, as they have front-line management for those particular children, is to ensure that everything is being done to manage the risks in the community for those young people and that every agency is trying to engage with them, not just Tusla. A lot of their problems can be mental health problems or drug addiction. We try to encourage those young people to engage with the services. Getting the services to reach out to them as well while they wait is key in managing that level of risk. We do not want the situation to continue where young people who are waiting for a bed in the community are there for long periods of time because of the high risks associated with their behaviour and the challenges around their lack of co-operation with services. For example, they can go missing for long periods and that causes issues because of further concerns about their safety. Those weekly meetings make sure those risks are always on the table and we are doing everything we possibly can to manage the risks.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It now falls to me to ask questions. Looking at the numbers, the referrals last year were up by 10% or 106,000. That can also be a positive; it is not necessarily the case that there is an increase in negative experiences around the country. It might be that more people are finding the pathway to Tusla. There are 5,879 children in foster care and 820 or so in other places. Allowing for a small population increase of about 2%, what are the top three or four reasons for the 10% increase in referrals?
Ms Kate Duggan:
We have done some work around that while trying to get insights. While it is not evidence-based research, the patterns are showing us two things. The first is the rise in complex social situations that many families find themselves in. We all recognise and acknowledge the challenges around housing and in relation to poverty indicators and domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. That creates pressure on a family and its resilience and results in an increase in the need for services like ours. The other thing is we are seeing more awareness around safeguarding and people's responsibilities – everybody's responsibilities in terms of the care and protection of children. Whether that is a mandated reporter or a member of the public, people are becoming more aware. When we look at our reform programme and why we have done the work that we have done, we also wanted to make sure that when someone is referred to us that they get more timely access to the service they need, whether that is support or welfare and that we are as efficient as we can be, and that we also make sure that we are reducing the number of re-referrals, so that people do not have to come back a second time. We are only six months into our reform programme and already we are seeing early indicators – it is too early to say definitively that it is an impact of the reform – in terms of a reduction in the number of re-referrals and more timely access to services. That is going to take time to embed. Our job as an executive is to make sure that we are managing the operational risks in front of us all of the time and working tirelessly to deliver services to children and families, but it is also about building a service for the future. I think that is what our reform programme has been about, both in terms of how we deliver services, our people strategy, our financial stewardship and our digital transformation. We are setting ourselves up. Currently, the biggest challenges are placement capacity. Over the next three years of our corporate plan it is our ambition that all of the pieces in the reform programme will come together to make sure that the services are better.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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While Ms Duggan was taking I was thinking about a very high profile and tragic case, which I will not go into, whereby an issue was flagged in social welfare and the right reporting was followed and things like that. Even though it was a crazy, tragic circumstance it was positive that it was flagged.
We had the Children's Residential and Aftercare Voluntary Association, CRAVA, in last week. It was mentioned that there was evidence in UK reports to say that outcomes for the community, voluntary and charity, CVC, areas were better than private for-profit. Does Tusla have any data on outcomes from Tusla residential centres versus private for-profit centres?
Ms Kate Duggan:
Mr. Hone might come in on this. The biggest piece of research that is under way at the moment has been commissioned by the Department on the care experiences programme, which is a long-term review of the outcomes for children in care over a period. That will be where we will see the first real evidence base in terms of the outcomes for children in care.
If we look at the measurements, up until now the agency has been established to look more at outputs in terms of the performance reports we produce: numbers leaving care; numbers in education; numbers in training; numbers going on to third level education or getting housing. We have introduced an outcomes framework within the agency where we will be able for the first time to start to look at outcome measurements for children in care and leaving care. Anecdotally, we are not seeing a difference.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They were quite strong on the values and vision approach. The private for-profits are there for profit versus the community and voluntary sector which is there for the child.
The main example they gave was the light-switch moment that occurs when the child turns 18 years. They spoke about how the bed becomes available immediately. We got the sense that people are turfed out of the private sector. However, Ms Duggan has spoken about an aftercare plan being developed. I would like to be more assured in that regard. I made the point last week that, notwithstanding the management structure or whether the vision of the company is to make profit, the people working in the private sector are still going to be caring towards a child. Can Ms Duggan confirm that there is not a light-switch moment or cliff edge?
Ms Kate Duggan:
It is important to say that every child in care has an allocated social worker, whether they are in a private centre, a community and voluntary centre or a Tusla centre. Every child in care is under the jurisdiction of the courts, no matter what centre they are in. Every child in care has a care plan that is developed with the child, the staff and the social worker within it. Every child in care has a transition plan from 16 to 18 years of age. When it comes to planning for accommodation post-18 years, that is what the plan refers to.
The CSO data, which is published, gives us very clear indications. We are seeing that almost nine out of ten children in care are engaged in education and training. That is across our care system. We are seeing that 55% of children in care are being looked after by a private provider. They are being looked after by professionally qualified social care workers and other professionals. It is at the child in care review and through the care plan that any difficulties or risks are flagged.
Children in care are not a homogenous group. There are children in care who are in education and in residential services, both private and statutory, who have challenges, maybe because of underlying trauma, mental health issues or disability, and they need access to specialist services within the HSE. The CSO data is telling a much better story about the experiences of children in care. We know what the vulnerabilities of children in care are, in terms of the risk of exploitation and homelessness.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am going to cut Ms Duggan off because I have been strict with everybody else's time so I had better be strict with my own.
Daniel Ennis (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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To return to the budget, has capital expenditure increased, decreased or remained at the same level? On the 78 - now 56 - children in temporary emergency placements, is there information on the locations of those? Where are they? Is there a greater need in certain parts of the country? Is there engagement with young people on their experiences? Are they consulted and, if so, how is that information collected?
On the care plan, are there gaps, struggles or challenges around addiction services or mental health services for young people in terms of referrals? Is there any pushback? Are there clear pathways? If so, where are the clear pathways and challenges located? Are the witnesses seeing any trends? We are seeing kids falling into criminality a lot younger than previously. That is certainly true in my area. We are also seeing them fall into addiction at a younger age as well. Are the witnesses seeing any trends as regards location and, if so, what are those trends?
Are there any intercultural challenges around integration of people from different parts of the world who come here? I know that as regards placements, school placements, in communities and in the voluntary sector, people are seeing challenges. Could the witnesses explain some of the challenges being faced around that?
Mr. Pat Smyth:
On the capital aspect, our current capital budget total is €35 million. That is split, with about €7 million for the ICT side and the rest for estates and buildings. That figure has been increased. The NDP review last year increased our total capital budget from €17 million in 2024 to €35 million now, and it is expected to be around €35 million for the next three or four years. A large part of that is dedicated to putting in place new residential houses. We have a plan to try to get around 100 new beds in place. That involves buying and refurbishing houses to bring them up to the standard we need for residential care and creating a home environment. That is the position as regards those matters.
I refer back to the question about capital going across to community and voluntary organisations. Obviously, we are in a capital programme ourselves. As Ms Duggan mentioned, one of the options is to have our own properties and get the community and voluntary organisations in to manage one of those properties for us. One of the challenges we have on the Tusla side is that, unlike disability and other areas, the size of the organisations we are dealing with is very small. Most of those organisations struggle in terms of having the quantum of resource to put the capital piece in place. A number of smaller organisations merged this year. That is something we may have to consider as we go forward, to allow those organisations to get together.
Ms Kate Duggan:
I am using figures from the time when there were 78 children in emergency arrangements. In terms of the location, about one third of those were in Dublin and mid-Leinster and another third were in Dublin north-east. As such, two thirds were within the greater Dublin region. The next highest area is the south east. After that, to a much lower level, is the west, north east and mid-west. That is a broad breakdown.
In terms of trends, what we would call out are the broader societal trends. Obviously, we are seeing global movement and its impact. When I talk about cultural issues, we are seeing really good evidence of integration. We are working with families from different cultural backgrounds in terms of how they parent and looking at that in an Irish context.
Certainly, we are worried about levels of exploitation of children, and that is not just sexual exploitation. When we look at our sexual exploitation data, we are seeing higher levels of reporting of concerns around exploitation of children living in the community, at home, than we are of children in care. We are seeing a rise in addiction and drugs among parents, with the impact that has on children, but also among the children themselves. We are seeing criminal gangs and their influence on children and young people.
I saw some data just yesterday. If we look at one of our specialist services dealing with sexual abuse, Barnahus, about 50% of referrals to it involve peer-on-peer abuse. We are starting to see an increasing trend of peer-on-peer sexual abuse or allegations of sexual abuse.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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What is the difference between the special emergency arrangements that were contracted by Tusla in the past and those that are now registered with Tusla? How many of these companies are operating placement settings? Are these the same companies that operated in the past but now with Tusla registration? What happens if an SEA provider fails the registration process? Are the children immediately removed or is there a time period?
Ms Kate Duggan:
Some of the providers are the same. It is important to recognise that in some of the provision of SEAs, private providers enter the market and we have worked with them and are satisfied they meet all of the criteria for registration.
Some of the providers are providing staffing on our behalf and are governed by Tusla. Where a service fails registration, a child is removed after 45 days if that centre has not achieved registration.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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My question is about the 1,200 unaccompanied minors in care. Am I right to say the age verification process is undertaken by the Department of integration and IPAS services?
Ms Kate Duggan:
That has always been the responsibility of the Department of justice. Now, in preparation for the EU migration pact, which went live in June, the Department of justice and the international protection office introduced a new age assessment process. While it is too early to talk about a trend, we have seen since January a reduction in the number of referrals to Tusla. It is important to say that the principle of the presumption of minority still remains. That is a principle we hold dear in terms of mitigating the risk of children being placed with adults. Internationally, the risk of every service is the risk of an adult being placed with a child. When I say a child, that child could be 16 or 17. There is also the risk of a child being placed in an adult service. We should probably use the term "young person" instead of child. That age between 17 and 19, or 17 and 20, in the absence of documentation is difficult to verify.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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On Tusla's knowledge of the cases, what is the youngest age at which we might be providing accommodation for an unaccompanied minor.
Ms Kate Duggan:
I do not have the age range here but we can certainly get it. When we talk about unaccompanied minors, there are children for whom we would have had concerns about trafficking or there are children who have come to the airport and there was a concern about the adult. It could be children as young as seven or eight. Certainly, for any unaccompanied minor under the age of 16 they are in the care of the State, and the younger young people are placed in foster care.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is the point I was getting to earlier, but I was not clear enough in my commentary, on concerns about the children. There are additional concerns other than their being unaccompanied in some cases.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I turn to special care. Tusla has acknowledged and regrets the current situation where it is unable to fulfil the statutory obligation to provide timely access to special care for our young people. How many children are we talking about there?
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their previous answers. I will go back to the idea of the threshold before a child is taken. I have been told that threshold has probably increased in recent years. I put that down to capacity needs. I also accept that people try to build a care plan around somebody. An issue I have been over and back on previously is the idea of caseload management. I will give part of the answer I got to a parliamentary question:
Tusla’s policy on caseload management is that there are defined manageable caseloads for all social workers, with caseloads reviewed on an ongoing basis to ensure best outcomes for children and families.
Tusla’s Social work Caseload Management system is a structured national framework designed to ensure that social work services are delivered, safely, equitably and transparently. ... Tusla has advised that the Social Work Caseload Management System has been paused in some areas. This is due to the number of Social Work vacancies being experienced by Tusla. Intensive recruitment efforts are ongoing by Tusla, and the Department is working closely with Tusla on this.
I heard this happened in County Louth, in Dundalk. It draws attention to the pressure individual social workers and social care workers could be under. Will the witnesses answer that and the question on thresholds?
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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This might have happened when Tusla did not have SCUs.
Mr. Gerry Hone:
Yes, so there is an impact there on thresholds. However, I do not think the thresholds for care have gone up because the legislation is clear on when the threshold is met, as well as our duties and responsibilities to respond when it is met. The function of front-line management is to make sure our responsibilities-----
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay.
We will move on to caseload management from the point of view both of those to whom Tusla is providing supports and services such the vulnerable children and of the workforce, the idea being that they are not overburdened with a lot of complex cases.
Mr. Gerry Hone:
No, and when you are short staffed that is always a danger. The caseload management policy is a bit out of date, particularly since we had the reform programme and are changing the approach to how we do our practice, in terms of integrated working. That caseload management process is now under review.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What is the timeline on that?
Mr. Gerry Hone:
We hope to have that done within the next six months, in terms of looking at it and getting it done. Even in its current format it never really covered the workload for workers at the front door. That was a gap in the system, so we have to go back to look at that caseload management system in the round and come up with something more fit for purpose based on what we have done under reform.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I was going to ask about that because I am led to believe the referral numbers are big, as are the numbers in care. That can be that action is taken as much as there is a need.
Ms Kate Duggan:
We can give a simple example. If we look at the cases open in an area in December 2025 before we implemented the new structure, the average number of open cases was 1,052. Today, that is 632. Through the reform we are seeing a rebalancing. On children in care, when we had 17 areas, the average number of children in care per area was 337. That has now moved to 194. One of the objectives of our reform was reducing the numbers of children in care, the number of referrals coming to the door and the number of caseloads open to social work for the 17 areas. We have achieved that through new structures, new alignment of teams and new constructs. We are starting to see it, but I can certainly get those Louth figures for the Deputy.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would appreciate it. Can I ask one tiny question?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is fine.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Well, it is quite a big one. It is about the cases we have had to deal with. I am not asking about specifics. This is Kyran Durnin. It is Daniel Aruebose. It is Vadym Davydennko. It is the assault on the young girl in Citywest. Obviously, there is a review methodology Tusla operated and there were recommendations. Some of them required legislation. Where exactly are we with all of that now?
Ms Kate Duggan:
The Minister published the recommendations within the Kyran Durnin review. We have implemented all of the recommendations that are within Tusla's control. Where there are recommendations outside of our control we are working with those stakeholders. The other reviews are ongoing in the context of the national review panel, but we do not wait for those reviews to change our practice. Something else I think will be back before the committee is the well-being check when it is published. That is where the Minister asked us to look at all of the cases that were closed to Tusla during Covid-19, to ensure the well-being of those children and young people. We expect that will be completed in the autumn. I think that will have great learning for the State. The Chair mentioned the DSP individual noticing something about how we use PPS numbers to collect information on children who are emigrating, in terms of educational systems and structures and on how we operate in Tusla. That will be really good, and I look forward to coming back before the committee to present the learning across State services as a result of that check.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The committee has reached out as well and it is very happy to engage with us once the report is published. I call Deputy Kerrane.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I want to come back on a couple of bits. First, on the private emergency placements and the 78 children and young people who are in temporary emergency placements, are all of those special emergency arrangements, SEAs, as they were called, residential home settings now? There are no hotels, apartments, flats or anything else.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, but there is no hotel or bed and breakfast accommodation.
Ms Kate Duggan:
There is no hotel accommodation. Under our national out-of-hours service, there may be. I want to check my records here to give the Deputy the data as of this week. Where we have our national out-of-hours service, an example may be a Sunday night. I have to be very honest that where there is a breakdown in a placement and there may be a period of 12 or 24 hours when a placement is not available, a hotel may have to be sought. For one young person on that week in July for which I have this figure, there had to be hotel arrangement sought-----
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Short term.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, that is fine. The SEAs were previously used. Most of us and the general public, in a lot of cases, would have seen this for the first time in the "RTÉ Investigates" programme. The use of those kinds of settings - rooms in hotels and bed and breakfast accommodation - on a long-term basis has not been not a practice since June.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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On that programme, another concern for the general public would have been the young person who was sleeping in the Tusla car park. Was Tusla aware that there was a young person in the car park?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I think we will not go into that because that is a specific person and it is very-----
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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No, that is fine. Obviously, it is public knowledge and I am not referencing the person but-----
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine. The other thing I want to check is if Tusla has met with Social Care Ireland and the Irish Association of Social Workers. A number of concerns have been raised around the reforms. Change is change and there will be hiccups and different parts to all of that. That is normal, but has the Tusla met with both association representative organisations?
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Ms Kate Duggan:
Ms Mannion and I most recently met with Social Care Ireland on issues not really related to the reform, just on wider issues in relation to Social Care Ireland. I personally have not met representatives from IASW because on the issues they were raising in terms of social work, the scope of roles and caseload allocation we felt our chief social worker would be more appropriate to meet with them. We are obviously open all of the time to meet with any representative groups, but in terms of the particular issues for which they were looking for a CEO, I would not have that information. Ms Mannion has met and also leads the discussions with CORU in relation to any of the queries that were subsequently raised. As CEO, sometimes it just is not appropriate in terms of the nature of the queries that organisations have.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Sometimes an in-between service between special care and residential care is raised with us. Does Ms Duggan feel, as head of the organisation, that this is a missing piece, particularly for children? Obviously, there are difficulties with special care but I ask particularly in cases where there may be signposts to special care but the services and supports are not actually there for them within special care.
Ms Kate Duggan:
Absolutely. I am delighted to say we are going to open three units, two before the end of this year and one in January 2027. We are calling them step-up or step-down units. I hope when the committee members come to special care and they see young people who have not committed a crime walking down around locked doors, their liberty taken away and high-wired fencing, they will understand it needs to be a measure of last resort. We are looking at having more step-up units where the environment is physically stronger. That has often been the concern we have had when we talk about the use of restraint in terms of ratios that might be needed or the strength of the environment in terms of ligature points, the windows, the doors and the layout of the environment. There are a number of environmental modifications that would have been needed and that is why we are building three purpose-built units. At the end of this year two will be opened and one will be opened next year. They have taken almost two years from the point of getting the capital approval, getting them built and up to the level of compliance in terms of HIQA, to, in this case, getting the much more robust physical environments. Three units, as I said, will be opened by January.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I understand why security personnel are sometimes used in special care units. Do they all receive training?
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses again for coming in. Is there anything else they want to add that the time did not allow them to say? I would be particularly interested in their future plans.
Ms Kate Duggan:
We are just about to write our next corporate plan, which is for the next three years. At the moment, we are going through a phase of analysis and reflection on the scale of the demand that is coming at us as an agency, the wider societal issues that are out there, and the supports that are needed for children and families generally. We want children to grow up with their families where possible. We want those families to be resilient. Where those parents have challenges around domestic violence, addiction or mental health, we want them to get the supports they need. Coming to Tusla should happen at a point after everything else has perhaps been tried and families have been supported. What we need or what we would like is the prioritisation of children in care for access to services and a whole-of-government approach to providing for the needs of children in care and families, whether that is in relation to housing, addiction or mental health services. We would like support around public confidence and trust in Tusla as an agency. We absolutely own our challenges. We recognise there are times when we are not able to provide the services that we would like to or want to provide. While we are working really hard to do that, part of it has to be about where there is a good news story, or a positive outcome where progress is being made, voices being used across society and across the political system to recognise that, while absolutely holding us to account where there is not. That is very important for us. My colleague may want to add to that.
Ms Rosarii Mannion:
The only other thing I would add is that we have a social worker all-employers forum which is led by Tusla. We have made good progress there in advancing new models such as apprenticeship, etc., but a more integrated approach is probably needed, with the educational sector and other agencies really looking at getting ahead of workforce planning issues to ensure Tusla has a workforce that is reflective of the society we serve. There is a little bit of integration needed on long-term integrated workforce planning across the State among the various agencies. Tusla has really pushed the boundaries. We have done what we can and there is scope for more learning and advancement there.
Mr. Gerry Hone:
Somebody asked earlier about trends and what we might be seeing for young people at the acute end. One the things that is a constant concern of mine is how we structure our addiction services in the State. You really have to be at a stage where you are co-operating with the service to actually avail of it, and a lot of the time our young people are not engaging. There is something about working across government around the structure of how we deliver addiction services, particularly to young people, and how they can access them. It is all about children going to centres to receive services if they are willing or their family is willing to co-operate with them. Whereas we actually need more outreach type of work with those young people and that type of specialism to be developed. That would be really important as a need to work better going forward.
Mr. Pat Smyth:
Our challenge continues to be around ensuring that we have and we get the resources we require.
We have tried to put in place good services over the last number of years. Despite all the challenges there have been around the residential side, it is worth knowing that the average cost of looking after a child in residential is about €48 per hour, which covers nights, days and weekends. For all those kids in residential, it is not a very big cost if we compare it with everything else that we have to do. We got a plumber last week, which cost about €90 for an hour. It is a lot of money but when we boil it down to what we are trying to do here - the depth of service and what we are trying to replace - it is a big piece.
I wish to note the following. Earlier Ms Duggan referenced the CSO data and there is a very high return. The CSO has examined the data across from 2017 or 2018, in terms of the outcomes for kids who have been through Tusla services. It found that between 85% and 90% of those kids are in good prospects, education and jobs. Yes, the 10% challenge that we have is where we have to look and they consume a lot of the resources. The investment of the State has been very productive in terms of what we have tried to do over the last number of years.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to return to our earlier conversation on the budget. As was mentioned, representatives of CRAVA were here last week. CRAVA is very much on the side of Tusla. They said that Tusla could not give them any more and it was down to the Department. I see that Tusla's budget is very structured, deals with the Department and it goes to the Department of public expenditure. In terms of what Tusla will seek for its next budget, will there be a large increase sought for this area? I know that if Tusla does not spend in one area that it is ring-fenced and would either have to be returned or applied for. Does that happen in other areas? Does the funding go into this form of care or not?
Ms Kate Duggan:
Before Mr. Smyth discusses the details, I want to say that Tusla is very grateful to the Minister, Deputy Foley, and her Department for securing a 14% increase for 2026, which we did get. A significant volume of that was for normal things like pension, pay and WRC payments. However, the rest was very much around funding for ten family resource centres, which has been very welcomed by communities across the country, and then in relation to the growth in the number of separated children, those seeking the international protection service and our residential services, and money to support us in terms of opening beds in special care, if we can recruit the staff that we need. Certainly, we are starting from a good base.
Members will have received the annual report, which was published yesterday. The annual report and the data that we have given the committee today is a story of increased demand. When there is increased demand and need to that level, our first job as a public service is to demonstrate that we are doing the best we can with the money that we have. For example, there is the implementation of our reform programme and some of the differences that I have called out in terms of the work that we are doing to make sure that we are doing that. There is our digital transformation. I know that there are lots of references in the media to digital transformation programmes at the moment. We have delivered. Tusla is the only health and social care service now that has a single child record. We have delivered that in house, on time, on budget and without the use of external services. Therefore, we have demonstrated very well our ability to use the resources that we are given and get a good return on investment.
We are concerned at the potential of a levy being applied to Tusla next year as a result of the levy that has been applied, as we understand it, across a number of State Departments or agencies because of the overrun in education, as reported in the media. We are very concerned if we had to constrict our services as a result of a levy. Obviously now we are going through the process of setting out the business cases to the Department in relation to that demand. That tells its own story in the sense of, if we were able to respond fully to that demand, what that might look like in terms of additional investment. Obviously, our job is to provide this committee with the assurance that, with the available resources, we are providing services to those most in need and those at greatest risk.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I aim to ask four questions in five minutes. First, on the issue of 45 days for a private emergency placement. The child must either be transferred into foster care or a Tusla placement after 45 days or the placement must become registered. What happens if they do not get registered? Let us say the child is transferred somewhere else. Can another child be referred to them for another 45 days or does the placement cease altogether for any child?
Mr. Gerry Hone:
When the child is initially placed, there are 45 days to begin the registration process. During that time the social worker and the providers will work together to make sure that the care is safe during that period. When the registration process is started, there is a further 60 days to complete the registration process, which is quite in-depth in that there are loads of standards to be met, lots of paperwork to be filled out, and making sure that all policies and procedures are in place. That is the reason for the extra 60 days.
Mr. Gerry Hone:
Absolutely, and that is monitored. During that time the care is monitored. If we get to a point where the service cannot register or fails to meet the standards for registration, there are several possibilities. The service can be closed and the child moved elsewhere or the service comes under section 59(a) of the Act, which brings it in under Tusla governance completely. We take responsibility for the governance of the placement and that then brings us in under HIQA, and HIQA inspects the service in respect of the national child care standards and residential care standards.
Ms Kate Duggan:
One of the other elements of progress that we have made is that young people are spending shorter periods in emergency placement because that is the solution. We want young people to be able to be placed in a centre that will be a stable placement for them. We have 45 days because it is stipulated in legislation. If we feel that they are making good progress, obviously we are happy to work with them for those 60 days because it is an administrative process. For us, it is around not having a young person in a placement beyond that 45 or 60 days, and that is what we are now measuring as an indicator.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In the interest of getting answers to my other questions, because we have all returned to these questions in similar ways, by the time we meet in the summer it would help us all if we received one page from Tusla that described the differences between the three new terms.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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On aftercare, the figures are good because 43% remained with their carers, 23% were in independent living arrangements, eight returned home and there are eight in residential care. What are supported lodgings and designated care leaver accommodation, and what is the 14% of others?
Ms Kate Duggan:
Deputy Dempsey asked about the 14% of others. We will get to that breakdown. Some of that would be homeless, some of it would be addictions, and some of it would be disabilities. We will supply the Cathaoirleach with that breakdown.
A supported lodging is digs. It is a family, in the case of older young people who are in aftercare, who are willing to almost rent out a room to Tusla so that young person has their own room in a home and would live there. Tusla would have an engagement but the young person would not be in foster care.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What is designated care leaver accommodation?
Ms Kate Duggan:
That would be an example I gave where we have worked with partners, like Peter McVerry and Focus Ireland, where we have funded or, in some cases, we have worked with the county council in a region, to have a house dedicated and it would be like a house share. It is dedicated accommodation that we fund for care leavers, and jointly fund with the councils in some cases.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The private sector can scale quickly, which is why we have ended up with 55%, but it is still Tusla's money that funds the private sector to scale. Why can the private sector scale quickly but Tusla cannot?
That might be a difficult question.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Why is that?
Mr. Pat Smyth:
The restrictions around acquisition of property for us are a bit of an issue in terms of governance. We are in a position where if we need a house tomorrow or the next day, we need board meetings, approvals and processes to take that on because that is just part of the rules of the organisation when it comes to acquiring property for the State. That is just one aspect. The alternative is that a lot of properties utilised in the State over the past number of years may be available for other services such as residential, for example, IP has been reducing, so there is a lot of availability of property coming through there at the moment. Obviously, the assurance and quality of those properties need to be-----
Ms Kate Duggan:
We are also working to a capital plan. We have a defined capital budget we have to stick to. While we can pay through a contract and through a tender for the provision of a service, we have to work to a specific capital plan. We get that five years out. We now know what our capital plan is for the next five years and we have to work within that.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses have given various answers about the demands on resources and concerns about resources in the future. On the 1,200 unaccompanied minors Tusla provides accommodation and care for, does it get any support from the Department of justice in terms of resources?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It fully comes out of Tusla's own budget.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Would Ms Duggan say the migration pact has had an impact on that?
Ms Kate Duggan:
It is too early to say there is a trend or correlation but certainly since the change in the age assessment, and there is now documentation verification, Eurodac checks and engagement with the IPO and the young person, we are seeing a reduction over the same period in the number referred to Tusla.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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On the increasing number of children under threat of participation in criminal activity, what role does Tusla have with the youth diversion programme?
Ms Kate Duggan:
Mr. Hone might talk about that. Where we have a concern that there is criminal activity, we report to the Garda first and foremost. On child sexual exploitation, we have had a process in place with the Garda since 2021. We have a single point of referral to a single point in the Garda whether the children live in the community or in care where we see indications perhaps a young person is being given designer clothes or has a mobile phone or has money. They are early indicators and we can report that to the Garda. Youth diversion is engagement and projects like Redtown and Greentown.
Mr. Gerry Hone:
That can be part of local planning so that if a young person is involved in criminality and that is referred to us, we go to the Garda and it is whether it feels that child or young person would benefit from the youth diversion programme. I am aware of one that is funded by the Garda and Barnardos in Donegal, for example. Children are referred based on their suitability for the programme. It is generally the Garda that decides whether they are suitable or not for that programme.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I want to go back to property upkeep and maintenance for the voluntary and community sector. As part of the service level agreement Tusla has with providers, are upkeep and maintenance costs covered?
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Is it just damage?
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Is Tusla confident that every young person is getting their aftercare plan put in place on time, in other words, as close to their 17th birthday as possible?
Ms Kate Duggan:
We have seen progress in that regard. It had not been the case. We have invested in our aftercare services and appointed a national lead for aftercare who is now looking at that consistency and standards across the country. Both have made progress. I can get the numbers for the Deputy for those who have their aftercare plan in place. I will send it to her after this meeting.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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My last question is about kinship care. The committee had correspondence recently on expanded supports for kinship care, especially financial supports. One example was a 22-year-old in continued education whose payment will cease. Are there any comments on that?
Mr. Gerry Hone:
Work with the Department is ongoing in respect of kinship care because there is an issue about funding and what type of payments can be paid to carers in those situations. That is being looked at in the alternative care strategy in the Department. It is hoped that will get bottomed out. There is a specific group looking at it. I have staff on that group to try to bring that forward under the strategy.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is probably too early to give recommendations but would it be in line with trying to give them the same benefits as children in foster care? It is obviously more beneficial if a child is kinship care but they are still taking on the duty for the State.
Ms Kate Duggan:
There is entitlement to the guardianship allowance. That probably needs to be looked at in terms of consistency and the application. I met a family recently who had taken on two grandchildren. They did not need the support of Tusla in terms of needing to foster but needed some financial supports. When they applied for the guardianship payment, they were refused on the first occasion. We supported them in their second application.
There is probably something in that regard because often families do not want intervention from Tusla. They are happy to be looking after their family members and they want to do it as a private arrangement but recognising that these grandparents, for example, needed some financial assistance. Whether that is through a guardianship payment through the Department of Social Protection or it comes through Tusla, many families would want it to be separate from the care system.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Before I give my closing remarks, does anybody else want to give any closing remarks?
Ms Kate Duggan:
I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to come here today. I thank the committee members who have recognised the good work. We have such hard-working and dedicated staff, not just in Tusla but across the community and voluntary sector, providing services on our behalf in increasingly challenging circumstances as the years go on. I thank the committee for its support.
I hope we give the committee the assurance that what we are doing on behalf of the State is the best we can with the resources available and we will be happy to own where there are challenges and be called to account on them. We look forward to the committee's support through the implementation of the alternative care policy when it is published and in terms of funding and support not just for Tusla but for children and families in communities, which needs to be a key priority for our Government.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in and answering the questions. I thank the committee for taking this position really seriously. We welcome when Tusla comes in and we have the difficult conversations because we are all here for the right reasons - to improve the lives and experiences of children. The staff Tusla has working on the ground do amazing work. That always has to be commended as well as addressing the challenges.
I thank the secretariat for all their hard work. Since Christmas, they have been working incredibly hard, as have all members. I wish them a happy summer break. I know they will not be having a break despite what the public might think. I know they will all be working very hard in their constituencies, whether having clinics or going to events. I know the phone will not stop ringing but I hope they get a bit of a break as well.
I look forward to seeing them when we visit the Tusla centres. I hopefully will be celebrating Mayo winning the all-Ireland.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We live in hope. Good luck to Galway on Sunday.