Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 16 July 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Youth
Allocation, Roles, and Training Needs of Special Education Teachers and Special Needs Assistants: Discussion (Resumed)
2:00 am
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In advance of today's meeting, we have received apologies from Deputy Jen Cummins and Senator Shane Curley.
Everyone is very welcome here this morning. I ask anyone attending remotely to mute themselves when not contributing in order that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all of those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off entirely.
Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Witnesses within the confines of Leinster House are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to this committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if any of the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity outside of the Houses of the Oireachtas or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
On the agenda for today's meeting is inclusive education, and specifically the allocation, role and training needs of special education teachers, SETs, and special needs assistants, SNAs. I warmly welcome the officials. From the Department of education, we have Ms Angela Corcoran, principal officer in special education; Mr. Brendan Doody, principal officer in special education; and Mr. Kieran Rogers, assistant principal officer in special education. From the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, we have Mr. John Kearney, CEO, and Ms Helen Walsh, principal officer. From the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, we have Ms Ellen Guerin, assistant director for policy. From Oide, we have Ms Lisa Kelly, senior leader. I will now call on the officials to make their opening statements. We will begin with Ms Corcoran, followed by Mr. Kearney and Ms Kelly. They will each have five minutes to make their opening statements, following which we will have questions from members. I call Ms Corcoran.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
I thank the joint committee for the invitation to attend before it today. The focus of our discussion is inclusive education, and specifically the allocation, roles and training needs of SETs and SNAs. Inclusion is about making sure that every child and young person feels valued and supported to take part in learning. It strengthens the capacity of schools and educational settings to foster welcoming, supportive and inclusive cultures and communities. The school workforce plays a vital role in providing a high-quality, inclusive education for all children and young people and particularly for those with special educational needs. Every day, teachers and SNAs work together to help all students to take part in learning, access the curriculum and be fully involved in school life. Our education system is underpinned by a committed, professional workforce of teachers, including SETs and SNAs.
For the coming school year, 2026-27, there will be approximately 48,000 SETs and SNAs in our schools. SETs use a wide range of teaching approaches to meet a variety of student needs. This ensures that children with special educational needs in mainstream education are supported in their education journey. All mainstream schools are allocated special education teaching hours for this purpose through the special education teacher allocation. Schools are required to deploy those hours taking account of one of the key underpinning principles of the SET model: students with the highest level of need get the highest level of support. Comprehensive guidance has been provided to schools to support effective practice and the inspectorate has an important role in monitoring the quality of that practice.
The number of SETs and SNAs has increased annually to meet the needs of students in primary, post-primary and special schools across the country. Budget 2026 provided for an additional 860 SETs, bringing to approximately 21,500 the total number of SETs working specifically with children and young people with special educational needs in our schools in September 2026. This figure comprises SETs who work with students in mainstream settings, teachers working in special classes and teachers working in special schools. For the 2026-27 school year, over 15,200 of the SETs will work in mainstream settings, ensuring support is provided in the most inclusive setting possible. In addition, funding for 3,000 additional SNAs is being provided to bring the total number of SNAs to over 26,000 for 2026 and into 2027, a 63% increase since 2020.
The NCSE is responsible for managing SNA and SET allocations, which are notified to schools annually. The SET allocation model is updated annually in line with mainstream allocations, ensuring fair distribution of this important human resource across mainstream schools. The NCSE publishes each school's initial allocation annually, supported by the SNA review process, which is an holistic examination of the care needs in all settings within the continuum of provision in a school.
The Department recognises the important role that teachers and SNAs play in creating an inclusive education system. It is committed to supporting them through access to high-quality training and professional development, helping them to meet the changing needs of children and young people and ensuring that all students receive the support they need to thrive. In that regard, the NCSE provides a comprehensive range of training opportunities in special education to teachers at all levels of the school system. In addition, 388 teachers are facilitated to avail of postgraduate level training in special education each year.
The NCSE leads on training and building capacity of SETs and a schedule of inclusive practice for mainstream teachers. This is completed in tandem with a complementary support service by NEPS. Oide, the support service for school leaders and teachers, also provides significant support. NEPS provides a service to all primary, post-primary and special schools. This includes general support and advice from a NEPS psychologist, a case work service for individual children and young people where a priority need is established, national and regional support and development work to build the capacity of all school staff, including SETs and SNAs, and direct support from NEPS in the event of a critical incident.
The NEPS national and regional support and development service provides up-to-date, evidence-informed learning opportunities for all school staff. It aims to build capacity and, being preventative in nature, provides a greater reach for the application of educational psychology. NEPS support and development is delivered via e-learning modules, live webinars and in-person events. Topics covered address well-being and mental health, special education and inclusion, and literacy. NEPS also works in consultation with school communities to develop supportive school structures, for example, student support teams, and provides consultative support around issues that emerge in practice. Useful resources generally accompany NEPS support and development work to support implementation.
Oide supports inclusive education through high-quality professional learning opportunities for teachers and school leaders and, where appropriate, SNAs. The SNA workforce development plan was developed over a period of more than two years through extensive engagement between the Department and education stakeholders. The plan includes the establishment of an SNA learning and development programme. Actions under this pillar of the plan aim to support SNAs to enhance their skills, build confidence and contribute to better student experience and outcomes. This includes continued delivery of the national training programme for SNAs, currently delivered by the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, and which approximately 4,200 SNAs have completed to date. The Department of Education, through the NCSE, funds this course, which is delivered free of charge to serving SNAs.
The success of inclusive education depends on the skills, commitment and dedication of teachers and SNAs. Ongoing training and professional development help them to support children with additional needs and to ensure that every student can take part in school life, learn alongside their peers and be treated with respect. The Department is committed to providing the support and learning opportunities they need to do this well. I thank the committee and look forward to our discussion.
Mr. John Kearney:
At the outset, I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee for the kind invitation to be here today representing the NCSE to contribute to today's important proceedings on inclusive education.
The NCSE has a vision of a world-class, inclusive education system for Ireland, where children, young people and adults with special educational needs are supported to achieve better outcomes in their education and are enabled to reach their full and true potential. The NCSE supports schools to enable students with additional needs to develop skills for life so that they can participate meaningfully and to their fullest potential in society.
The restructure of the NCSE has effectively enabled the organisation to deliver an interdisciplinary, integrated national programme of teacher professional learning and direct student, family and school support. Teacher professional learning research indicates that a sustained model of simultaneous support for both teacher and student is required to embed practice across school communities in achieving inclusion and belonging. Since 2023, the NCSE has worked to deliver a multi-modal teacher professional learning programme in tandem with tier 3 supports to students. In the past decade, the NCSE has provided six policy advice publications to the Minister for education across a whole range of areas relevant to the provision of inclusive education. The most recent policy advice on an inclusive education for an inclusive society was presented early in 2024 and was prepared following an extensive period of research, consultation and deliberation undertaken by the NCSE.
Great care was taken to establish a strong evidence basis to inform this policy advice paper and involved extensive consultations and school visits, a multi-strand programme of research, international study visits and examined evidence of how education provision for students with special educational needs is supported within other jurisdictions.
Following the publication of the policy advice on inclusive education, work has continued under the technical support instrument of the European Agency for Special Education and Inclusion, which provides tailor-made technical expertise to assist in moving from policy to practice. This will increase the capacity of our education system to design and implement specialist provision to support inclusive education in mainstream settings, as well as improving awareness among stakeholders of what inclusive education can mean in the lives of children and young people.
There are already exceptional inclusive practices occurring in our schools right across the country that provide supportive and nurturing learning environments for students. Schools are using innovative approaches to teaching and learning, tailoring interventions to meet students’ needs and accessing specialist support to ensure that all students have access to the curriculum and achieve their full potential. The NCSE commends and celebrates these best practices and seeks to embed these practices across the education system.
2024 saw the introduction of the school Circular 80/24 which enabled the NCSE to have a greater overview of specialist demand at both special class and special school levels. The NCSE established the parents notify system and NCSE SENOs and team managers worked closely with school leaders, school boards of management and school patrons to establish classes with quicker timelines.
In addition to the SENO service, the NCSE provides an expertise-led, evidence-informed advisory professional learning service to all schools nationwide. All NCSE professional learning, including the highly successful NCSE Relate, provide a pathway to professional learning in a multi-modal manner, including sustained support for schools over two years, inclusion cafés with follow-up support, coaching and in-class modelling, seminars and webinars, and in-school bespoke training to teachers and whole school communities.
The new NCSE Moodle learning platform is due to launch in September of this year with NCSE Connect, a quality practice framework for school communities, due early in 2027. The NCSE visiting teacher service provides teaching and professional learning opportunities directly to students, their families and to schools. NCSE therapy is an educationally based therapy service and operates a scope of practice encompassing a sustained in-school therapy and a regional therapy model.
We have an extensive professional development programme extending into the realms of autism, behaviour, student support planning, UDL and special schools, involving the areas of child protection and curriculum reform.
The NCSE advisory service provided 431 professional learning opportunities for 28,000 teachers in the current academic year. Plans for the 2026-27 academic year and beyond are well under way, with an additional 400 schools seeking NCSE sustain support programme on student support planning, inclusive pedagogy and leadership programmes.
The NCSE warmly welcomes the opportunity to join in the deliberations with the Joint Committee on Education and Youth this morning.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Kearney. We will now hear from Ms Kelly.
Ms Lisa Kelly:
On behalf of Oide, I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the invitation to appear today. I welcome the opportunity to outline Oide's role in supporting inclusive education through high-quality professional learning and to share our work in supporting special education teachers and, where appropriate, special needs assistants. As Ireland's national support service for teachers and school leaders, Oide supports every primary, post-primary and special school across the country. Our role is to build the professional knowledge, confidence and collective capacity of teachers and school leaders so that every learner has equitable opportunities to participate, progress and achieve.
Collaboration is central to our work. We work closely with the Department of Education and Youth, the NCSE, the inspectorate and our wider education partners to ensure that our professional learning is coherent, complementary and evidence-informed. Every programme undergoes a rigorous design and quality assurance process involving practising teachers, school leaders and education partners, ensuring that our provision remains relevant, research-informed and responsive to the needs of schools.
Within Oide, dedicated primary and post-primary inclusive education teams support schools across the continuum of inclusive education. Our work is grounded in the belief that inclusive education is about ensuring every learner has equitable opportunities to participate, progress and achieve. This requires curriculum, teaching and school organisations to respond flexibly to the strengths, needs and aspirations of individual learners.
A significant focus of our work is supporting the implementation of the junior cycle and senior cycle level 1 and level 2 learning programmes. These programmes provide meaningful, personalised curriculum pathways for students with the most significant learning needs. They recognise that success looks different for every learner and place the individual student at the centre of curriculum planning.
Our professional learning reflects that philosophy. Rather than promoting a single model of implementation, we support schools to develop approaches that reflect their own context while maintaining a clear focus on meaningful participation, progression and achievement. We work with teachers and school leaders to strengthen collaborative planning, curriculum design, assessment and whole-school decision-making so that inclusive education becomes embedded in everyday practice.
Special education teachers are central to this work. Alongside our wider professional learning provision, Oide provides dedicated professional learning through a range of delivery models, including national events, regional provision, in-school support and self-directed online learning. During the 2025-26 academic year, almost 100 full-day professional learning events were facilitated by our post-primary inclusive education team for approximately 1,650 teachers, the majority of whom were special education teachers. These events focused on personalising the senior cycle curriculum and supporting implementation of the new senior cycle level 1 and level 2 learning programmes, equipping teachers to design learning experiences that are meaningful, relevant and responsive to individual learners.
While a significant focus of Oide's professional learning is on curriculum enactment, we also respond to priorities identified by the Department of Education and Youth. Most recently, this included professional learning to support implementation of the child protection procedures for schools. This work brought together teachers, school leaders, special needs assistants and ancillary staff in a shared learning experience, demonstrating the value of professional learning that strengthens collaboration across the whole school community.
Our experience consistently demonstrates that high-quality inclusive education depends not only on policy and resources, but on sustained professional learning that enables teachers and school leaders to translate policy into effective classroom and whole-school practice.
Oide remains committed to working alongside the Department of Education and Youth, the NCSE and our education partners to ensure that schools continue to receive high-quality, evidence-informed professional learning that strengthens inclusive practice and builds the capacity of schools to meet the diverse needs of every learner.
I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it today. I welcome members' questions.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms Kelly. We will proceed to members' questions. They have six minutes each. There will probably be a second round of questions. I am conscious that when I interrupt to try to move people on that witnesses may have been trying to close out a point. I will give them a few minutes at the end to close out their statements if there are bits we missed along the way. Deputy O'Rourke is first.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will start with the Department on SNAs and their importance in schools and where things are going into September, recognising there was a lot of work done preparing a workforce development plan which was rejected by the union. The Chair can steer me in this regard. The commitment still stands that no school will lose an SNA next year. In relation to recruiting into SNA roles from September, is it the case we have a new circular and we are working with that? Is it the case that there are changes in the requirements for qualifications for recruitment to SNA roles, for example? Will Ms Corcoran give us an update?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
We have done a lot of work over the last two years with SNAs, including Fórsa, the trade union that represents SNAs, and other stakeholders to deliver the SNA workforce development plan. It is based around five strategic pillars. The Deputy knows that because we have presented to him before. A lot of work and a lot of collaboration and consultation have gone into that. We have been notified of the outcome of the ballot by Fórsa and while it is very disappointing, we very much respect people's democratic right to voice their view on the plan. We are engaging with Fórsa now and we are available to discuss and learn what the difficulty was in terms of the plan. The next steps will be determined by our engagement with Fórsa over the coming weeks.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Something could happen between now and September, for example.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
For my own information, what way-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I apologise. I will give extra time in a moment. I am just going to re-read something we read earlier. I ask members not to raise the issue of the Fórsa ballot and the rejection of the SNA workforce plan at the meeting today. The Department of Education and Youth and its agencies are in complex and sensitive negotiations with Fórsa at present. Comments that we might make could be prejudicial to the outcome of the negotiations. I allowed the question because I thought what the Deputy said was very relevant in terms of the status quo prevailing. I am just generally flagging it so that we can cover this without getting into the-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is fine. Let us just come back to that then. If I am an SNA today, does redeployment happen or am I in a precarious situation as things stand, if nothing changes between now and September or now and September 2027? Does the status quo prevail ? Does the redeployment scheme exist? There is now a question around whether it is FETAC level 6 or FETAC level 5 recruiting into posts that are advertised. There is a suggestion that new criteria are applying, which SNAs certainly do not feel should apply.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
On the content of the plan itself, there is an action to work towards level 6 over a number of years. There would be a very staged approach to that with certain exemptions for people who are maybe close to retirement, etc. That is being carefully developed in consultation with all the stakeholders. The survey of SNAs indicated that 80% of SNAs were in favour of increasing the minimum educational qualification.
In terms of next steps, I want to be very fair to SNAs and Fórsa. The Department is available to discuss all these matters. We will await the outcome of those discussions in terms of-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
To ask a straight question, if the Department is advertising for a new SNA post in the morning, will it be level 5?
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. I thank Ms Corcoran for that. There is lots of development in relation to assessment of need and the role of access to special classes and special schools. Is the Department of education talking with the Department of Children, Disability and Equality with regard to how it might be implemented at a school level and the role of teachers in relation to that?
Mr. Brendan Doody:
I thank the Deputy for the question. There are two quite separate processes. The assessment of need is a HSE process, as the Deputy is aware. The HSE has its assessment of need process and there is a function for schools in relation to the assessment of need. That function is very clearly laid out and involves the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, and the assessment officer from the HSE going to the school to get information from the school on the child's need. It goes back to the NCSE and the HSE and forms part, but is just one component, of the overall assessment of need. That process continues. There is no change to that process at all. Schools are still required to engage with that system as it progresses.
Separate to that is the question of what the Deputy is referring to, which is accessing a special class and a special school. To be very clear, there is no requirement for an assessment of need to get into a special class or to enrol in a special class or special school. There is a requirement for a diagnosis but there is no specific reference anywhere to there being a requirement for an assessment of need. I know our colleagues in the Department of Children, Disability and Equality and we do engage with them. We are constantly in touch with them about these issues. They would also be very clear that an assessment of need is not required for many of the health services or most of the health services, in fact. It is sort of needs led. I suppose it speaks to the big question as to the future direction of our system and-----
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Department has a forum in relation to that.
Mr. Brendan Doody:
Yes. The Minister announced very recently the establishment of a forum on inclusive education. One of its prime functions is to develop a shared vision or shared understanding of what we actually mean. When we say "inclusive education", what are we talking about? There is whatever number of people in the room here. If we ask everybody to write their definition of "inclusive education", there will be common themes across it but there will also be strands and differences, different perspectives and so on. There are some people who would argue very strongly for more and more special classes. Others would say that is not inclusive; that is pushing us in a direction when the system should be going in a different way.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In the opposite direction.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank all the witnesses today once again. This section on inclusive education we have spent the last couple of weeks on has been very extensive. We got to ask a lot of questions and hear from an awful lot of witnesses. The body of work that is going to be produced after this is going to be very reflective of all the good work that has been done and where we have come from, while also acknowledging there are things that can be tweaked left, right and centre. We all understand that.
We know the SNA role has evolved greatly. The job they do is supporting a lot more than what they were originally set up to do. They are supporting emotional regulation at the moment. The big thing we are hearing from a lot of the witnesses is that the roles are supporting people staying in mainstream education as well and that is what we want to see. We know there needs to be far greater clarity between the special education teachers, SETs, and SNAs. The resounding message we are hearing from everybody is about the training need and the continuous training need. A lot of messages we got from various bodies were that everybody acknowledges the training need, but whether enough is being done to allocate time for the training need to protect time so that training can be delivered rather than expecting the training to be done within people's time off or non-scheduled time. Is there anything the witnesses would like to contribute further to what they have said already with regard to that set time? That is open to everyone if they would not mind coming in on this.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
I will start off by talking about that national survey of SNAs I mentioned earlier. When we conducted that survey, a very significant 73% of SNAs were engaging with training in relation to their role, which is testament to their commitment and dedication to children with special educational needs. We met with them in focus groups subsequently. There is a report on that on the Government website. They told us they had this concern whereby they were really hungry for training and were engaging with it a lot, but they had this need for access to legitimate training that they knew was in line with best practice and Department policy. In terms of the SNA workforce development plan, we have a dedicated pillar that establishes a learning and development programme. That will involve working with the education centres, Middletown Centre for Autism and other stakeholders to put in place a structured system of training that SNAs and schools can access to ensure they have legitimate training opportunities. A figure of 60% or more of SNAs told us they had not completed induction for their role. The plan, therefore, includes an action to develop a structured induction programme. Other learning and development opportunities, including collaborative training opportunities with teachers, is something else we want to explore.
SNAs also told us that they do not very often have opportunities to meet with other SNAs, even in schools where there are large numbers of them. They are busy and do not have time to talk. The plan includes an action to develop communities of practice for SNAs. That has all been carefully developed.
In terms of time for training, the difficulty is that we do not want to impact on the time that SNAs spend supporting children. The contractual arrangements for SNAs include for time, in addition to classroom hours, for activities like training and development.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is the time that is allocated for that adequately protected?
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes. Is a set amount of time allocated to them each year? Is that sufficient for what this plan and the Department's surveys have identified? Some of the other witnesses may also want to come in on this.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
I will hand across to the others, but what I will say is that it is very much dependent on the stage the SNA is at in their career. Starting off, an SNA may have greater learning needs than someone who is more experienced, but we do know that the world of special education needs is evolving all the time, so there is a need to keep abreast of best practice. We have seen that SNAs are committed to that.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
With the minute I have left, I might just see if anyone else would like to comment.
Ms Lisa Kelly:
Under pillar 3 of the workforce development plan, there is an action to align training opportunities for SNAs in schools and other agreed locations alongside scheduled teacher training days, including school clusters. Primary and post-primary teachers engage in school closure professional learning, as the Senator may be aware, and there is an action under that development workforce plan that SNAs would receive training at the same time. This would cut down on the time they spend supporting the students but would increase their opportunity to engage in professional learning or training.
Ms Helen Walsh:
From the NCSE's perspective, in terms of the support that SNAs, SET teachers, class teachers and subject teachers require, it is often within their school time. The NCSE supports schools in a range of different ways. Our CEO just mentioned that in terms of requests for in-school support. We covered 2,700 of those requests this year in school time. Our model is expanding into the classroom. What we are seeing is that we can provide training about something or about how to do something. We are seeing that people may know about autism or regulation, but it is a question of how we show them how to support children within that class context and how we coach teachers. We are shifting our model into that space as much as we can.
For SNAs, there is Relate training and training on behaviours of concern available. When special schools open, we invite SNAs to exceptional closure days on child protection.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am up next. I again thank the witnesses for coming in. We have had the National Association for Principals and Deputy Principals before us. Its representatives stated very strongly that there should be a national training framework for inclusive education. Has Department has given consideration to that in order to ensure that there would be a proper platform? At the moment, initial teacher training is good but can be hit and miss in terms of what people eventually acquire. Some individuals have to go off and do continuing professional development, CPD. Has any thought been given to a national framework?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I skipped someone on the list. We might come back to that.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I misread my notes. It is Deputy Coppinger's turn now and then we will go back to Senator Tully. I am conscious that members have to speak. If I go in the wrong order, I am going to mess up their speaking times.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is it me next?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
People are going out to speak in the House. If someone has to leave, I will go one ahead of them and then revert in order to give them time. I apologise for that.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There are three issues that I want to discuss. I do not know if I will have time to speak about all three. One is about the 1 September portal notification, which has caused a lot of angst. Last year, it was moved to 1 October. This year, it has been brought forward to 1 September. Why was it brought forward at a time when schools are closed and when teachers and principals are not able to help parents to apply for school places or make them aware that they have to apply? It is often the case that this happens on the basis of information provided by the schools.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
The parent notify portal is in its third year. It has proved itself to be a very important strategic tool in terms of forward planning for specialist provision. The engagement with the portal has been strong since it opened. We have been engaging with stakeholders all along. We have a special education consultative forum, which includes representatives from organisations like the National Parents Council, Family Carers Ireland, etc.. There is consensus among those on that group regarding the importance of effective forward planning and the need to build our capacity to announce classes earlier and provide greater certainty to parents and children. They have been well aware that we are on this journey to bring back that date and to be able to inform students and parents as early as possible.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In my constituency, there are a huge number of people who do not have any connection with the National Parents Council or the other groups Ms Corcoran is talking about. It tends to be a principal or a teacher who tells them that they have to get their applications in. To do it when schools are closed is just very-----
Ms Angela Corcoran:
I acknowledge that schools are closed, but many are open as a result of the summer provision programme. Nonetheless, the advice for parents is that in the first instance they need to engage with their local SENO. We know that many have done so already. Every effort has been made to publicise the new date and to make sure that parents are aware of it. The key point I would make is that it is about doing better, being more effective in our forward planning and providing certainty. The parent notify system, as I said, is a valuable strategic tool and has facilitated the opening 584 special classes to date. When we commenced that in January-----
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Nobody disputes the need to get information to people earlier. I am just saying that the way it is done can mean that some people will not know about it. I just wanted to ask-----
Mr. John Kearney:
To add to what Ms Corcoran said, there are two elements to the portal. There is the planning information, which Ms Corcoran has given information on, and there is also the provision of year-round support for families. The portal is well embedded in the system at this stage. The NCSE is the national agency. Two years ago, it had about a 50% lens on parents and young children looking for specialist placements. That is now 100%, and parents continue-----
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I do not dispute that. I am just halfway through my points, if Mr. Kearney does not mind. I know how great it is; I was just inquiring as to why the date was changed.
I want to ask about schools that make appeals about SNA provision and where they go after that. I made representations on behalf of, for example, Hansfield Educate Together secondary school in my area. We all know that secondary education is now becoming the area where there is the least amount of provision. The principal of the school states:
... the Department is increasing spending ... however we are not seeing it. The NCSE is simply not recognising our increasing needs and are providing no tangible guidance on how to manage.
We received word from the NCSE that they will not be giving us anything from our appeal. This is hugely disappointing and it's going to have a devastating impact on us as a school ...
Obviously, I am speed reading this. The principal also states, "we have identified that 29 students will require School Support+ (The highest level of support). This support will be absolutely necessary for them to maintain their school placement."
Last year, the school identified 19 students in this regard. It is going to have ten extra students this year but no extra provision. To cut a long story short, it is going to have to talk to parents about reducing the time during which the children will be in school. The school feels that it has no other option because students will not be safe in classrooms. This is one school in my constituency, which is one of the youngest constituencies in the country. The school has gone through the appeals process, and no one has listened. What is it meant to do?
Ms Helen Walsh:
I can speak to that in relation to the rigour of the process. There are two processes, and two independent groups of SENOs and team managers have looked at that particular school. I will leave the school aside and speak generally, if the Deputy does not mind. In terms of the numbers of review, we have carried out 1,132. There are-----
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Sorry, can I not ask about an individual school?
Ms Helen Walsh:
I should not speak to the individual school, but I can speak to the general points that may be relevant to that school.
In general, when a school receives the outcome in question, it is really disappointing. What we have to say as an agency is that it needs the right support. Very often, the support it needs is not necessarily SNA support but SET support in that the existing SETs need support in relation to practice.
I would always say to a school that the NCSE can support them, but it may not be where they have identified the need. It may be in the area of practice development. I advocate that no school should go to a reduced school day without parental consent, but also that it should have exhausted every other possible option for training and support in this area. It is about the right support for the school and the children. I am aware that schools dispute the levels of need, but our process, which we stand behind, is absolutely rigorous in terms of identifying those.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Ms Walsh believe that the school does not need these SNAs at all?
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What other kind of support is in question if it is not SNAs?
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I know, but advice and support is not on-the-ground support for the student.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I apologise for what happened a few moments ago. I was reading the list incorrectly. We are going to have Senator Tully next.
Deputy Coppinger asked her questions in good faith, and it is a line of questioning I would probably also have pursued. While I know she asked the questions in good faith, we should be aware that when we talk about special needs and supports, there is a very small risk that a cohort of children could be identified. I know that was not where the Deputy was going with her questions. I ask that the NCSE perhaps correspond in writing with the Deputy just on the specifics, which are relevant. I appreciate that the witnesses have to speak in more general terms, so if a member tries to go down a specific line, we will not be able to go there. Perhaps afterwards the NCSE could correspond with the member in writing.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Individual schools have been referred to here before.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
They would be raised in the context of building projects or school transport. I do not know the school. I imagine it is a very large one.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The risk is tiny in that case. If I mentioned a school in Clare where there might be two or three children receiving support, there would be a small possibility that they could be identified. They would have a right not to be, but I accept where the Deputy was going with her questions. Perhaps the NCSE might correspond with the Deputy in writing, if that is okay.
Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have had a back-and-forth on it.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Very good.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Good morning to everyone. I apologise for being late. I have read the opening statements.
We have had a couple of sessions in this committee on inclusive education. A number of themes come up over and over again, but one is class size. Does the Department have any intention of reducing the student-teacher ratio? Class sizes are a huge barrier to inclusive education. I have taught classes with 30 pupils and classes with 15 and I have noted that there is an immense difference in the amounts of attention a teacher can give to students who may have particular needs. Most students are in mainstream classes. In primary schools, some teachers are still teaching classes of more than 30. That is crazy in this day and age. We have some of the largest class sizes in all of Europe. Is there a clear intention to reduce the student–teacher ratio?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
The Department is committed to providing positive support structures for schools and children. For example, in addition to class teachers, we have special education teachers and a SET allocation that provides additional support. We have SNAs, as we have mentioned here. We have 48,000 SETs and SNAs in the system supporting schools. We support schools through training, whole-school approaches and policies that support children and staff. The Department is committed to providing additional supports and making things better. All our work in special education and across the Department is undertaken with the objective of delivering more and better for children with special educational needs and for children across the system.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I apologise for cutting in. That is a policy decision for a Minister and for the budget. The pupil–teacher ratio for the following year is usually announced. I respect the question but I am advised it is not within the remit of today's meeting. We will let the question go. Class size does make things difficult in the classroom, though.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We are talking about inclusive education for every child attending school at primary and secondary levels. Not all children require a special class or special school. The majority of children in our school system are in mainstream classes. They deserve to be taught and they have different needs.
There are 39,000 children in classes of 30 or more. If we are serious about inclusive education, we should realise that while we need special schools and special classes, an increasing number of both are being opened, with the danger of segregation in our education system. We need to consider having all our children in an inclusive environment and being able to be taught in their local school. The student-teacher ratio is vital in this regard. However, I take the Chair's point. If we are serious about the matter, we have to reduce class sizes.
Many students require assistive technology, but the criteria are quite strict. Consider where a school indicates that a student's writing is extremely poor and that they need assistive technology. I have come across several cases in which children have been refused it, which is going to make their lives much more difficult. Is there a better way of looking at this? I realise that there are tests and that a certain level has to be reached, but what is the position if a student's handwriting is so poor that they require the technology?
Mr. John Kearney:
Those matters are under consideration. The circular on assistive technology is currently under review. It is picking up on the exact points the Senator has raised. They have been presented and will be factored into the revision and ultimate publication of the circular, which will allow greater flexibility and autonomy for individual school communities to pick up on the exact issues the Senator is raising.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is welcome. Since it is under review now, can we expect a decision on it?
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Do we know how many schools are teaching the level 1 and level 2 programmes at junior and senior levels?
Mr. Brendan Doody:
I will answer that, if that is okay. The Senator will find that the level 1 learning programme is being taught in many, but not all, special schools. The level 2 learning programme is available for all students who require it. The Senator will find it in special schools but also in mainstream post-primary schools. I do not have an exact figure for the number of schools providing the programme. What we would say all the time is that the programme of learning followed by a student has to meet that student's needs. If a school identifies that a student has the capacity or capability to engage with the level 2 learning programme, it is provided.
Perhaps my colleague in Oide might be able to answer or reflect on some of the training supports that are provided.
Ms Lisa Kelly:
I do not have the exact figure to hand today, but a programme is available to all schools. Where a mainstream or special school identifies that a level 1 or level 2 learning programme is the most appropriate curriculum for a student, based on the individual student's strengths and needs, it can certainly introduce it. Oide provides both school-closure and professional learning to support schools in identifying whether it is an appropriate curriculum for the students, and schools can apply for individual bespoke school support on a sustained basis. A member of my team would visit the school for three days over the course of the school year or make a once-off visit. Additional professional learning is available through our website, etc.
Mr. John Kearney:
A very exciting development in relation to level 2 certification is that the State Examinations Commission certified level 2 participant schools this year. More than 100 were awarded certificates. It is a significant progression mark or milestone in inclusive education. We will revert to the committee with the exact details of how many schools are availing of the certification route.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is now my turn. I have a few questions. The first is for Ms Guerin. In-school counselling has been piloted. By all accounts, it seems to have been a success, but Neart continues to be online at second level.
I take the view, and I hear it from other teachers, that there is no substitute for face-to-face contact and helping a student through the difficulties when you are in front of them. Are there any plans to move that offline and get it into schools physically?
Ms Ellen Guerin:
I am not aware of any plans to move it offline. Since the Neart programme was launched and the registration started, 90% of post-primary schools have registered for access to Neart. The usefulness and the popularity of the Neart supports is indicated by the number of parents who have also registered for the supports that are available through Neart online. The information we have to date has been very encouraging. It has provided a reach in supporting the well-being and mental health of our young people at post-primary level that was much-needed in the system. I am sure that it will continue to act as a complementary support to the supports that are being provided by other support-and-development work from our service in NEPS, which is available to our post-primary schools, and also the supports that are available for teacher professional learning and the development of our SNA workforce through Oide and the NCSE.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms Guerin for that comprehensive answer. On NEPS, everything we are talking about here is loaves and fishes. Unfortunately, that is where we are at the moment and will be until capacity increases significantly. I am aware that children who need to be seen by NEPS get seen, but that could be at senior infants or first class. They might be an entirely different child by the time they are in fifth class. You could have a child who arrives at school non-verbal. They could thrive, and then they are heading into adolescence. Their needs are changing by the year yet, from what I am hearing, there is no NEPS capacity to see a child for a second time within the eight-year primary cycle. I do not think that is official policy. It is just the loaves and fishes scenario. Is that widespread or is there scope for NEPS to repeatedly see a child if the need is there?
Ms Ellen Guerin:
The committee members will all understand that the support from NEPS is based on our staffing. We currently have 242 psychologists employed by NEPS nationally. We endeavour to provide the best possible support we can to all of the schools and through our casework service, which is a substantial part of our work in schools and accounts for 80% of our service delivery time, we endeavour to meet the needs of as many schools, and children and young people within those schools, as far as possible.
In relation to the Cathaoirleach's specific question, it is fair to say that our focus is and always has been on direct involvement with children and young people with the greatest level of need. If a child is seen by our service, and in time needs to be seen again by our service, we consult very closely with the school principals in our designated schools and we work very hard to ensure that we are available where the need is present.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Ms Guerin. I apologise. I want to get one more question in before my time runs out. I will ask the Department about the teacher training question I was trying to come to earlier. I myself trained in Mary Immaculate and I had a wonderful few years there. Looking back, neither I nor my colleagues coming out were fully trained for what was ahead of us. There were general things we were familiar with but at times I found myself having to go off and research, sometimes on the laptop while the children were working in the classroom. That is not good enough. Will mandatory continuing professional development, CPD, come in or will there be better training and a national framework for training teachers in special education?
Mr. Brendan Doody:
It is important to recognise the purpose of initial teacher education, ITE, is not to produce the fully-fledged perfect teacher. When you qualify at age 21, 22 or whatever, you are very much at the first rung of the ladder. It is a comprehensive programme, as the Cathaoirleach said. He went through the process in Mary Immaculate.
Nobody would disagree with the Cathaoirleach on the need for more attention to teacher professional learning. The Cathaoirleach's colleagues on the disability side have produced a really good report on inclusive education for persons with disabilities. We have our education for persons with special educational needs, EPSEN, review. We have our roadmap for inclusion. There is a common theme running across all three reports and it is around teacher professional learning - more of it and more often.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Will the Department go so far as to have a national framework where all teachers will have it?
Mr. Brendan Doody:
It is one of the key themes of the forum. We have to agree what teacher professional learning looks like into the future. The Cathaoirleach referenced the question of mandatory teacher professional learning. It is perhaps unusual that our system does not formally require you to engage in teacher professional learning. Once you leave Mary Immaculate, for example, you can retire 40 years later and you might not have done any teacher professional learning.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will be very honest here. Before I became a TD, I would probably have been at home this week doing an online course. Some teachers are highly motivated to do something that they will drive on in September when they are back in the classroom. Some summers, when our children were newborns, the house was chaos. You were not sleeping at night. You were doing a very handy course to get three days extra personal vacation, EPV, during the year - I am being honest and that is my take on it - for a couple of years at least. It needs to be more serious than that.
CPD needs to have a national framework. It needs to be far more carrot than stick. It needs to reward the teacher, maybe with additional leave days, but it needs to upskill them ultimately so that their role is interchangeable. They could be in a sixth class SET. They could be in a multi-disability class. We have to assume that they have a skill set that can go anywhere within that school environment.
I am out of time, sorry. I call Senator Nelson Murray.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have spent the past few weeks having very good discussions on inclusive education. It is good that we are here to speak constructively but also to acknowledge the positives. We have €1.1 billion going into SNAs this year. We have 26,000 SNAs in the country. Their number has doubled in the past ten years. We have therapeutic supports. We have a new circular. It is good to acknowledge the good work that is being done and at the same time look at what we can do to make it even better because we are hearing from people who have been in over the past couple of weeks that there are things we can do to make it better. On that, I have four points.
The first is on the SNA numbers, which, as I mentioned, have doubled. Is there a number that the Department feels we are going to get to or that we need to get to to make sure we have full inclusive education? On another aspect on numbers, I would say to Senator Tully that my daughter is in a class of 36. We are not talking about that today but I feel that when it comes to children who need inclusive education that the class numbers are still very high. Is there a magic number there?
Gap-filling came up a lot last week, with Dr. Rob Webster from the University of Greenwich and Dr. Claire Griffin. I refer to SNAs coming in and gap-filling when teachers need to do something else. How do we see ourselves tackling that?
Another issue is the July provision. I do not know about my fellow colleagues here, but I was inundated three weeks ago with calls from schools all over Navan and Trim trying to see were they going to get the amount of people in for the July provision. It was down to the last week and they still did not know what was happening there. Have we looked at what has happened this year? Will we improve on it next year?
Training has been mentioned a couple times. It definitely has come up, whether it is that SNAs or teachers need other time to train, whether it is taking an extra day off in the year to go and do it, or where they are to do it. The Irish Primary Principals Network, IPPN, said here last week that 61.5% of the schools it surveyed stated that the SNA posts were not sufficient to meet the needs of children and only 10% agreed that school staff had access to the requisite training, supports and services to equip them to respond effectively to behaviours of concern. They were talking about more difficult behaviours and whether they were ready to meet those needs. A couple of others mentioned it as well. On the numbers part and SETs as opposed to SNAs, they also said that an extra 3,000 posts were needed.
There are my four points in three minutes. I was very good there. I would be grateful if the witnesses could come back on those.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
In terms of numbers, in relation to SNAs, we will have almost 26,000 at the end of next year. That is a significant increase in that workforce over recent years. The commitment from the Department is that we will have sufficient numbers to meet the needs of the children but, as was mentioned at the committee last week, which the Senator referenced, sometimes it is about more than numbers.
It is about building capacity among the workforce. The SNA workforce development plan includes a pillar on learning and development for that reason, namely, to support SNAs, whom we know are very committed to training because we have seen from the surveys that 73% of them regularly engage with training.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Ms Corcoran see the numbers increasing from 26,000? Is there a magic number?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
It is very difficult to say. The prevalence of autism is increasing, which may affect the numbers. The commitment is that we will continue to provide sufficient numbers of SNAs as they are required to support children to attend and participate in school life.
We have a very robust allocation model that identifies the level and the requirement for special education teachers and has shown itself to be quite a strong, strategic and powerful tool in terms of ensuring there is support for children. Between those two models - the special education teacher and SNA allocation models - there is a tool to provide sufficient support-----
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What about the July provision and gap filling?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
In terms of the gap filling, the academics who were before the committee last week mentioned that role. That is what we have done in terms of the SNA workforce development plan. We reviewed the role, went back to basics, looked at the SNA role - how it sat in the school community, how the SNA interacted with others in the community, what the school community needed from the SNA and what the SNA needed from the school community - and built the circular that addresses all of those things in terms of the evolved role of the SNA, including support for well-being, transitions and participating in learning. There is a need for training as well, though, and that is something we have identified as an action in the SNA workforce development plan. This would entail broader training for SNAs themselves, but we also intend to explore collaborative training with teachers as part of the plan so that they are very clear about their roles in the classroom and the child gets the appropriate level of SNA support to allow him or her to participate in school, maintain his or her autonomy and build his or her independence as far as possible. When we met teachers in focus groups, they told us that they did not always feel equipped to manage that relationship with the SNA and vice versa, so there is a need for that collaborative training, which we have included as an action in the plan.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What about the July provision?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
The summer programme has been running for many years. Schools are very familiar with it, so they are prepared and ready to engage. We are always trying to do things better. Our job is effectively to do better for children with special educational needs and other children, so we will listen and-----
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What about the appeals side? Schools are trying to find out whether they are going to have the right numbers to be able to run it effectively.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Hopefully, we can get more into this in the second round.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank all of the witnesses for being here. Apologies if there is any repetition, but I was next door at the committee on children.
My first question is for the NCSE. The reintroduction of therapies in school that was announced is a positive change. Recruitment has commenced in 45 schools. Will the NCSE give me an update on that? Will any be ready to go in September? When will those 45 schools be done?
Mr. John Kearney:
I commend the Deputy and her colleagues on realising the programme for Government and putting the investment behind it in terms of the education therapy service, ETS. It is building on the announcement last year of the 39 therapists, who have been fully recruited. We are working our way through the first phase. There are three phases to the roll-out of the ETS. The first phase involves 45 special schools being supported. Recruitment is progressing quite well in that regard and we will have therapists for the 45 schools, with various levels of support provided. That will be built upon as the recruitment campaigns progress and intensify. There has been a good, tentative start and the view is to continue that.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Will the 45 schools have something by next-----
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is great. To be very parochial, regarding the need for special classes and places in Meath, does Mr. Kearney know what the remaining need will be before September?
Mr. John Kearney:
I do not have that information in front of me, but as per previous queries relating to the portal, we have data underpinning this and have a complete profile of every county. We know what the level of demand and provision in County Meath is and every indication is that we are closing it out. I can revert to the Deputy on the substantive detail behind that query.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
When the portal opened, a number of people who were quite concerned came to me. They were told about it during the summer months when the deadlines were 1 and 15 September. Can Mr. Kearney give an assurance that those are not necessarily hard stops?
Mr. John Kearney:
Yes, I would be delighted to give that assurance. The matter has come up as part of the discussion. There are two aspects to the portal, one of which is the planning perspective with the deadline of 1 September. To reassure the parents with whom the Deputy is dealing with daily, the portal is open all year round. It is a provisional lens in terms of what is required. The NCSE and, by extension, our departmental colleagues are working with local school communities with a view to expanding the special class capacity to attend to that. That is part of the expanded delivery this year. For the past three to four years, approximately 400 special classes have been provided yearly. This year, we are at the 585 mark. It was the portal that enabled us to do that with the data and insight in terms of working with local schools delivering on that. That reassurance will continue for each and every one of those young children and their families in terms of providing the provision that is required for them.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Brilliant.
How flexible is the NCSE in providing accommodation for special classes? A better way of putting it might be to ask what flexibility the Department will give the NCSE. I met a private provider of after-school care last week that spoke about the complexities it faced in delivery. It mentioned a school where it had put a prefab on site for its service, and it then allowed the school to use the prefab during the day. It was not for a special class; the school was not given sanction for one. It made me wonder afterwards whether the NCSE would have flexibility in a situation like that to use a prefab provided by somebody else for a special class during the day.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How many children are still without an appropriate place for September? Does the NCSE anticipate all children having an appropriate place? I know the Minister has said that there are sufficient places to meet overall demand but the reality on the ground is not quite there. A lot of parents have already contacted me to tell me that their children are without places. There are cases of children who applied last year, did not get in and are reapplying. What is the overall picture?
Ms Helen Walsh:
The Minister is correct. The overall provision is there. We are still drilling down into some local hot spots. We know it is difficult for parents because they sometimes do not get exactly the school they want or there may be a bit of travel involved, so we try our best to reduce that. Our contact with parents is on a weekly basis at this point to try to run them through the options of school admissions. I know that we are in the summer now, but the admissions process is still ongoing on in many schools across the country and there is a little bit of waiting for parents to find out whether they are on the waiting list. We always say to parents to apply to as many places as they can. Unfortunately, that generates refusal letters. We are very aware of certain hot spots, predominantly within the capital and some of Kildare. We are satisfied that there is sufficient provision. It does not mean that every parent will get their child into exactly the place they want.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How confident is Ms Walsh that we will not have a repeat of what happened last time?
Ms Helen Walsh:
I am confident of the provision. I cannot speak to each individual child but we are very happy that we have worked early enough to get those 585 classes open and the expanded provision in place in special schools.
We are satisfied that enough is being done but that does not mean we do not have to work with every individual parent and child to get them as close as possible to where they want to be.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does the Department agree that there is unmet need in the area of SET support? We have heard from the unions that the caseload of teachers is very high and that children are going without support they need. It is welcome that there is such an increase in the number of SNAs but we heard from Dr. Claire Griffin of Mary Immaculate College last week and she was saying that the worry is that we think adding SNAs into classes is the answer when we really need to take a whole-school approach. If we had the right professionals, such as occupational therapists and speech and language therapists, we would not need as much SNA support.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
That is why there is an action under pillar 3 of the SNA workforce development plan, which relates to learning and development, to look at collaborative training between teachers and SNAs to ensure the boundaries of both roles are clearly understood and that both are equipped to manage that relationship. We see this as something we can strengthen into the future. We certainly aim to do that within the SNA workforce development plan, along with other actions relating to training for teachers.
Mr. Brendan Doody:
We have 15,000 special education teachers. It is really important that the structures in schools support the delivery of the best support for students. That support is sometimes best delivered on a co-teaching platform, where the special education teachers work with their colleagues in the mainstream. Sometimes, it is best to take a small group out. Other times, individual support is best. This is a very significant measure that is in place to assist schools to support the students with the greatest level of need. It behoves us to ensure that the schools where the needs are greatest receive the greatest number of special education teachers. That speaks to the way in which they are allocated from the Department and the NCSE out into the system. That is really important. It is now part of the annualised deployment scheme. It is really important that we get the very best out of special education teachers. It is therefore really important that we provide them with the best opportunities to train and to engage in upskilling and so on. This training is provided by colleagues in the NCSE and in Oide.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have been in that role. I was a special education teacher for the majority of my time working in primary school. I was doing speech and language therapy. I was online. I was trying to do it all but I did not have the qualifications. You do the best for your kids. While we are adding more SNAs and have the special education teachers, we need a whole-school approach. That is the worry. We need more speech and language therapists and occupational therapists in our schools.
Ms Helen Walsh:
In the broader conversation on inclusion, we very often focus on the role of the SET or the SNA. When we talk about inclusion, we are really talking about teams and collaboration with the class or subject teacher. Alongside the significant resources that have gone into the system, we have to get into classes and subject areas. We have to start looking at what are the right supports for a class teacher to support the diverse student population within his or her class. Equally, we have to consider subject teachers at post-primary level. We have to stop limiting our understanding of this to just SETs and SNAs. We have to start looking at the whole-school community to see how we can develop everybody's practice to ensure we are not dependent on SETs or SNAs.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In my last second, may I ask-----
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If the Deputy wants to get a question in, I will allow her 30 or 40 seconds.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I wanted to very briefly go back to the summer programme, formerly July provision. I am not just asking about the window. I know of a school in Kildare where the principal could not provide the programme because the teachers could not do it. She could not hire enough of her own teachers. It was a huge problem. What have we learned so far as to how to address that in the future? How can we ensure it is available for all the families?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I ask the witnesses to be brief in their response.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
We look to improve continuously. It is open to schools to recruit others. Educationposts.ie provides that service. Students can be taken on. Student teachers can do a placement on the summer programme. That provides additional support for the programme. We are looking to continuously improve. The personal rate of pay for teachers and SNAs has increased to incentivise participation.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The principal was worried about recruiting other teachers. She did not feel it would be a safe environment if all of the teachers came from other schools. She could not get her own teachers to do it because of their own personal reasons.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We will get a second round of questions in.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for being here today. I apologise that I missed their opening statements. Like some other colleagues here, I was in the Chamber for oral parliamentary questions on education. I have the statements in front of me, however. I got through them before the meeting.
I want to focus on some of the points that were raised when some of the representative bodies were here. They relate to how SET hours are allocated to a school and the data that is used. The witnesses might be aware of the conversation that happened but it is a point that has been repeatedly raised and on which there was general consensus across the representatives who were here that day that it is unusual that live data is not fed from the schools into the Department or elsewhere when the POD system or something like it could be used. I would like to get an understanding of how the hours are broken down. I have had principals tell me that there is testing involved for older age groups in the school. The SET allocation needed for the younger cohort is not really known. With regard to POD, why can we not have live data going from schools to the Department to give a somewhat live feed of schools' needs at any point in time? We might start with how the Department comes to the allocations of SET hours before we address why we cannot have live information through the POD system.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
The Department has done a lot of work on the SET allocation model over recent years to make it as robust as possible and with a view to ensuring that there are adequate SET hours available to schools. I will hand over to my colleague, Mr. Rogers, who will talk to the Deputy about the SET allocation model.
Mr. Kieran Rogers:
There are three primary inputs into the SET allocation model. The first is the enrolments. In line with national and international figures, 25% of the available hours are allocated to the enrolments side. That is based on the premise that it is envisaged that approximately 25% of the student cohort will have some learning need. The second part of the model is based on the educational literacy and numeracy profiles. We use the results of the standardised testing over a three-year period. It is not based on an individual year. This testing is done at second, fourth and sixth class level. It is not only the three years, but those three cohorts, in terms of the literacy and numeracy tests. On the final input, we recognise that not all children from disadvantaged areas attend DEIS schools. The model applies a percentage of the allocation to those children based on the HP deprivation index. That creates the profile. A profile is created for every school across the country.
The Deputy mentioned an issue that had been raised with the committee. At the moment, we are visiting schools to look at the data that is maintained in the schools to see what data we could use as an additional input into the model in the future. We are also looking at how we might be able to capture that data on a consistent and accurate basis across all 4,000 schools. That is being worked on. We are looking at it at the moment in the context of a roadmap for where we want to go with the SET model. However, we need to be very careful that it is done consistently and accurately as we take in those feeds. If we take data in that is not consistent or accurate, it could have a negative impact on school A to the benefit of school B. We are working on that at the moment. The other side of the allocation that is important is the SET review side.
Mr. John Kearney:
I will come in on that because it captures the very essence of real-time data and the changing circumstances.
Mr. Rogers has taken us through the SET model, which is in its third year of delivery. In parallel with that is the SET review every year, which is open to schools if they feel the model is not completely comprehending their particular needs. It accounts for the changes that can occur that Mr. Rogers has alluded to: rapidly developing schools, schools that have unusual circumstances, a level of pronounced trauma at local school level, or a significant cohort coming into second class who are not completely comprehended within the diagnostic tests. That is available to schools. The schools that have come to us feel that the SET review is a very timely, strategic process. There is a quick turnaround. The schools that receive an increase in teacher allocation receive an allocation that aligns completely with their teaching recruitment at the early stages. There is provision for balancing the consistency of the model. The SET review application comprehends real-life data and circumstances in school life. It is done in a very quick turnaround time to facilitate schools functioning as they do and as they have to. There is a balancing act that has been struck.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The standardised testing is one point. That is probably the only area in the whole model where we have some idea of the individual school. Otherwise we are looking at the 25% allocation plus the general indices. Standardised testing starts in second class, as Mr. Kearney said. Essentially, we do not have any data at all on children in junior infants, senior infants and first class unless we are going into a review. The points made by the representative bodies here are very valid. The Department needs to allow the live information to come. I am not saying it has to be looked at every day, but certainly a school has to be able to feed in what the needs of each individual class are. I think we can trust the principals to give accurate data, but it seems from Mr. Kearney’s answer that there is some work ongoing to look at how we are going to get that information from schools. From what we have done here, that message is very important to take away.
Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Like Deputy O'Meara, I apologise for my absence earlier in the meeting. I was in the Dáil for parliamentary questions on education. Not for the first time, we are having a considerable debate on the area of special education and the need for it. There are two fundamental issues. First, we really need to applaud the special needs teaching staff. They do phenomenal work and there is very significant benefit for the student and his or he family. We can never underestimate that. Second, it is fair to acknowledge that the demand for this service is growing year on year because we have an increasing population. Those special needs can be so diverse. There is a lot that has been discussed over the past couple of months since we have been involved in this. Early intervention is critical for any child.
One of the greatest insults - maybe there is a better way to describe it - was the short window for the portal for the summer programme. I was dealing directly with a school where the teaching staff were so passionate about wanting to get this for another year. Ultimately, the window of opportunity was opened again and the school succeeded. As I have said before, I felt it was essential to understand fully what really goes on within the classroom where these students are participating. I took it upon myself to spend an hour and a half in one such classroom. I came away from that experience wanting everyone in the world to see it to understand exactly what is happening. It was fundamentally brilliant. There were ten students in that setting and two members of SEN teaching staff. On the day I randomly visited, they were doing they were doing a CPR and first aid lesson. Outside of that room, each child had a parent or both parents in some instances who had a break as a consequence of the child getting that opportunity to learn more. There were two really great things happening. Parents were getting a much-needed break – I saw the challenges of the students - and the children were getting the benefit. The teaching staff were so passionate about what they were doing.
One of the things that came up in conversation was that not enough specialist training is available for SNA teachers. In the normal scheme of things, when a teacher is going through a teaching course, it is rarely required to complete the SNA element. That is a failing. I realised that day, as I have many times in the past, the extraordinary challenges there are for all teaching staff, not just SNAs, for example with managing hot school meals and everything that goes with that. There are also school capacity issues. I do not really have a question about this but I am very passionate about it, particularly because I understand the real benefit for children who can avail of the summer programme. I really feel that, by and large, the teaching staff who are involved in SNA teaching do an absolutely compelling job. Any tampering with their job security and continuity of employment is an absolutely critical matter. I ask the witnesses’ views on the impact of the summer programme on schools, on teaching staff and, most importantly, on the students who benefit. I am sorry to cut them so tight for time. I went on a bit much.
Mr. Brendan Doody:
Each year for the past number of years, we have asked the inspectorate to monitor the provision available in schools during the summer programme. Its reports are published every year and are well worth a read. Somewhat unusually for the inspectorate, perhaps, they are universally positive and strongly endorse the work of schools. The Deputy's experience of visiting a school that is providing the summer programme is shared across the board. It is a hugely important element of provision from the Department.
The issue of respite for parents, which I think is what the Deputy is referring to, was probably brought into sharpest relief during Covid, when special schools closed and we got a really deep understanding of it. Ultimately, the purpose of a school is for students to learn. However, the secondary benefit of special schools in particular is that parents are enabled to have a period when their children are cared for, looked after and taught, which is really important. As Ms Corcoran referenced, the summer programme is evolving each year. Every single year it is evolving. The inspectorate looks at it each year and we take the learning from that and try to apply it to the following year to make sure it is as good as it can be.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses. We are going to go to a second round of questions. It is three minutes per Member, beginning with Deputy O’Meara.
Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I know Senator Curley touched on CPD in some detail in previous meetings. I will refer to the training of our special education teachers in particular. I ask the officials to outline where the Department is with work on that and how it is going to make it as accessible as possible to teachers in the system.
I understand that those going through teacher training now will have the mandatory experience. For those who have not done it, what is available to them time and cost wise? How do we make it as accessible as possible, considering the number of positions we are filling and trying to fill at all times?
Mr. Brendan Doody:
I will start and other colleagues can come in. In recognising the importance of having experts in our system, we fund 388 postgraduate places annually. These are places on level 9 postgraduate programmes that are available to teachers working. Obviously, the stipulation is that they have to be working in special education settings, either in special schools or special classes. Those places are taken up every single year. We increased the number of places from 338 to 388 in the last budget, a small increase admittedly. We want to increase that again. The more specialist training we have available, the better. I will pass to Ms Walsh to talk about the much wider range of training available to teachers. It is not all about the specialist teachers. We want to enhance the capacity of all teachers to be better in their classrooms.
Ms Helen Walsh:
There is quite an extensive range of training opportunities for SET teachers and class and subject teachers within the whole school community. The NCSE's professional learning programme looks at trying to work with schools in a proactive, supportive and responsible way. We have pathways for professional growth. They offer a huge suite of supports. I will come to SETs specifically in a minute.
We have responded to over 2,700 requests from teachers, including SETs, to come to their school to support them. We offer inclusion cafés, which are in-person. They provide a supportive environment to get into the nitty-gritty detail of what a specific teacher is experiencing. We have responded with 224 whole school staff sessions across the country. A total of 350 schools have responded to us for sustained support. That means we are with them all the way through for two years on the area of development they want to work through. We work with about 500 schools through the NCSE relate resource on regulation and behavioural management. We work with a further 460 schools around autism.
The Deputy is right that in order to provide a professional learning programme that hits whole school communities, it must be done in a variety of ways. We respond to that by way of coaching and in-class modelling. Our new learning management system, which we are launching in September, will offer a whole variety of learning opportunities for schools. Last year, we offered 431 seminars and webinars that reached some 28,000 teachers. We always have to improve and move forward. We are looking at what quality practice looks like into the first quarter of next year to support schools specifically in that practice space with NCSE connect. That will cover a whole range of supports, including leadership training, neurodiversity, NCSE relate, what transitions look like and inclusive pedagogy as it exists within a school context.
For SETs, we look at their areas of expertise on student support planning, creating student support files, implementing the SET guidelines and inclusive teaching. We also get into specific details, such as students with Down’s syndrome or literary or numeracy issues. We support SETs in that regard. On foot of the SET review, which the Deputy referenced, we also assign advisers to schools that have gone through a SET review and may be disappointed with the result. They may need some practice development. We ensure they have that support.
Ms Ellen Guerin:
I wish to briefly mention the role of NEPS in supporting the training or, as we call it, our support and development model of service. We have a service that provides support and training for all school staff, which backs up what Ms Walsh said. It is for teachers and special needs assistants in areas such as well-being, mental health, special education inclusion and literacy.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I apologise; I took my eye off the clock. I will give everyone four minutes in order to be fair to everyone. I call Deputy Darren O’Rourke.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Sinn Féin, through a Dáil motion, proposed a special Oireachtas committee on the future of inclusive education. It would have been a Sláintecare-type committee. The Government did not disagree with it, but I do not think it agreed with it either. It has come up with this special education forum, which is the national forum. The intent of both is the same. Does the NCSE welcome the opportunity of the forum? What important things need to come out of it? The committee has an opportunity to meet with the chair of the forum. I ask that question of the Department as well.
Mr. John Kearney:
No more than the committee’s work in recent times, particularly in recent weeks, when it has been considering all aspects of inclusive education and what it looks like, it is about ongoing dialogue and consultation. By its very nature, special education and by extension inclusive education keep changing and evolving. The inclusive forum is to be welcomed. Obviously, it is enshrining a shared national vision for what inclusive education looks like. A whole ambit of support structures are required to bring that vision to a practical reality for young children and families throughout the State. Underpinning all of that will be many of the issues we have discussed this morning and those the committee has been discussing in recent weeks, such as initial teacher training, access to professional development, enhancing the roles of individual teachers, SNAs within schooling communities and expanding leadership capacity within schools. Ultimately, there is the question of the wraparound supports needed at a variety of levels, with specific expertise in autism and behaviour as well as therapeutic inputs into the physical and mental well-being of students. All of those attributes will be featuring naturally in that discussion, with as many parties as possible contributing. What inclusive education looks like is an area that unites, challenges and at times divides. However, there is a collective mission and vision to be created that builds and is united by everyone contributing.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Will Mr. Doody comment on whether there should be an opportunity for the general public to submit to this forum, parents in particular?
Mr. Brendan Doody:
The Minister has announced that the forum will run for a six-month period. As the Deputy will know, Professor Noel Purdy has been appointed as chair. There will be an opportunity for us to engage with the chair in September in this regard. It is important to note that there has been an enormous amount of consultation heretofore relating to the EPSEN Act, the roadmap for inclusion and the work of the disability committee.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that European document, which Mr. Doody previously mentioned, published?
Mr. Brendan Doody:
Yes, it is published. All of these reports are coalescing around the same things, which Mr. Kearney articulated very well. First, what is the shared vision for inclusion? What are the structures that will be required in order to achieve that, such as teacher professional learning, leadership, the wraparound services, multidisciplinary team supports and, importantly, transitions? Realistically, the consultation is complete. There was a massive level of consultation involved with the EPSEN Act. The roadmap for inclusion also had a huge level of consultation. We know what everyone is saying. The question now is how we progress it. How do we make this a reality in our system? Some of it will take quite a long time, while other things can be progressed far more quickly.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Will the forum report in six months’ time?
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am up next. I want to go back to the parents notify portal that others have raised. It is welcome that it is open. However, I note that last year the closing date for people to submit was 1 October, whereas it is now 1 September. Many parents will engage with the portal and that is fine, but what I have seen in my years of teaching is that while some parents are geared around these things, others are not. Others rely heavily on the school to guide them in this regard. Schoolteachers are largely unavailable at this time. While we can say that some may be in and out of the school, many will not. The principals are on holiday leave and it is a big ask to think that all of this can function perfectly between now and 1 September. It is not realistic at all.
I hear that there is a desire to pull this back earlier each year. Anything administrative or orientative in a school should be wrapped up by mid-June in order to allow schools to conclude standardised testing, send out report cards and close the door for the summer. This should not be on the backs of principals, SETs and co-ordinators over the summer. Will the witnesses comment on this?
What has been the engagement on the portal so far?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
The NCSE will outline the level of engagement, which has been very high. It is worth saying that, as we have mentioned before, the parents notify system is an important tool. In the first instance, parents should be contacting the SENO. That should be their first point of call. Even where the schools open, the SENO should be the first port of call.
In the first instance, the information that parents are required to provide on the parents notify system is very basic. It is the name, date of birth, address and that type of information. It is very basic in the first instance. The requirement for reports, etc., is at a later date. I will say that while they are closed we are grateful that many schools have contacted parents to remind them of the closing date of 1 September. I emphasise that parents need to engage with the SENO.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If I may interject, I agree with all of that. I would make the point that there are different types of parenting in this country. Some parents will be straight on it the minute the portal opens. Other parents - and I do not know a better way to say this - need their hands held. They will not engage and do not know what to do. They may not be motivated to deal with the issue. They may not have IT literacy skills. They may be unaware of what their children need in September. They may be coasting or struggling through this. It does not fit the model of parenting. Some parents lean heavily on the schools for those day-to-day things and that support. The trusted teacher who guided them through the process is not available in the summer.
I have one last question to raise. I have raised it at the committee previously and it is still a considerable concern of mine because I do not think it has been adequately addressed. So much of providing for special needs, English as an additional language, ADL, and allocations, is built on enrolment in schools that is geared around Ukrainian children who came here during the war. If a peace deal is struck there, and we all hope it will be, the EU directive allowing them to be here will be rescinded in March 2027. In some schools, that will have a minor effect but in others, in Clare and other west of Ireland counties, half of the children enrolled will leave. That will cave in the whole system. Have the witnesses models for that scenario? Allocations could change instantly if half the school leaves.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
We are always looking forward and trying to anticipate what will happen. As the Deputy said, we all hope there is peace and that those children and their families are allowed to return to their homes. It is a matter we are looking at. We will provide the supports that are available. We will work with schools. There is a risk. We know that numbers in primary schools are reducing anyhow. We will work with schools to see what we can do. It is a matter of demographics. It is a challenge.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The number of enrolments in Kilshanny National School in Clare doubled. The Ukrainian kids there have been fantastic, but everything is built around that enrolment number. There is a whole support model. If there were to be peace, the enrolment number would halve in the middle of the school year. I do not think that has been adequately modelled for.
I am conscious that others want to come in. I will conclude. There will be time for others to close out. Our deputy chairman is calling on me to conclude. He usually makes a speech after doing that. I call Senator Scahill. I did not know he was next. I will get my hammer out.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I am sorry that I had to run up to the Chamber for a few moments. Eileen mentioned collaboration with different organisations, the Department and the NCSE. I might have to cut my contribution short because I see there is a vote in the Seanad. Where Oide is supporting teachers, what is the engagement like between it, the Department and the NCSE in terms of the planning process and how recommendations are made? That is where I would like to go.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I was addressing you. I am sorry.
Ms Lisa Kelly:
That is no problem at all. We in Oide work closely with the NCSE, NEPS and wider stakeholders. All of our professional learning is prepared through a high-quality design process, which involves collaboration with the organisations I have mentioned, as well as other stakeholders. As part of that design and quality assurance process, every piece of professional learning is put through a design review phase, during which stakeholders and representatives of the NCSE, NEPS, the inspectorate and other stakeholders attend to ensure that professional learning is supporting and enhancing supports to schools rather than overlapping. We work particularly closely with the NCSE around the SET training I have talked about for the post-primary level. There are level 1 and level 2 learning programmes, as has been mentioned. The wider curriculum flexibility that exists is based on a learning outcomes-based curriculum at primary and post-primary levels. We work very closely to ensure that SET training is complementary to what they are receiving from the NCSE rather than overlapping.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
To follow up on the reference to collaboration, the Department would have good visibility of enrolment numbers in individual schools at a much earlier stage of the year. I know in my own home county, we had a few school closures. Those schools will not be opening again in September. That was well flagged early in the year. I was working with a few schools around their allocation of SETs and SNAs. They were not happy with their allocation and yet the schools that were closing were given allocations. I am wondering about the collaboration between the Department and the NCSE in that regard.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The Department would have had visibility of enrolments much earlier than that.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
"Final" is the key word there, even though we all knew.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That was hard for some of the schools that were trying to appeal these allocations. Everybody knew that certain schools were closing. They were getting allocations while other schools were fighting for the few additional allocations. It comes back to clarity and communication.
Mr. Kieran Rogers:
On the SET review side of things, over 80% of schools submitted reviews. They were undertaken by the NCSE. Where an additional need was identified, additional hours were allocated to those schools, ranging from 2.5 hours per week to 25 hours per week. Any school that has a concern about its allocation should submit a review. The NCSE will recommend a quantum of additional hours. In every case where there is a recommendation for an increase, that increase is granted straight away and is available before the start of the next school year.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We recently heard from a principal. Perhaps it was last week. She highlighted that schools already have a lot of detailed and relevant data to hand. She was quite convincing on this point. There are support plans, etc. The data could be used to allocate accurately and efficiently. She highlighted the need to use the data and to trust the principals that they know exactly what their school needs. There is a lot of information on the post-primary online database, P-POD. Has it been considered at all that there should be a way for the principals of the schools to share the data?
Mr. Kieran Rogers:
I mentioned earlier that there is an exercise going on at the moment whereby we are undertaking visits to schools to look at the data that is available. For the further development of the model, the goal is to get greater input from schools through the feeding in of data. Work is going on in that space at the moment. The key thing is that we need to ensure there is consistent and accurate data coming in to feed into the model. That work is under way with schools.
Mr. John Kearney:
The consistency piece that Mr. Rogers alludes to is important. It also picked up on the very significant work that the inspectorate had done in recent times in terms of the consistency and the quality benchmarks right across the system. As Mr. Rogers has alluded to, it is about finding out what information can be discerned from schools, but then there is the support provision to schools so there is consistency, fairness and credibility across the system in terms of resource provision.
Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Go raibh maith agat. Will the Department outline its position in relation to children with Down's syndrome seeking class places? I have had a couple of families contact me both last year and this year. They feel there is a lack of provision for these children. They do not feel it is appropriate for them to be in mainstream classes. There is a lot more talk now about the redesignation of the mild or general learning disability schools. Will the Department outline its position on that le do thoil?
Ms Angela Corcoran:
In terms of special class provision, we have announced 584 classes this year. It is a very robust and very strong commitment from the Department to meeting the needs of children through special classes. While many of them are for autism, that is because that is where the demand is. We generally find that there is adequate supply there of places for children with other conditions. It is not something that has been expressed as a huge difficulty with us. It is all about working with parents and children to secure an appropriate place for their child. That may sometimes be in mainstream with the right support. Special classes are available there.
Ms Helen Walsh:
I thank the Deputy for the question. I understand their concerns because they are probably looking at what Ms Corcoran has just described, which is so many classes for children with autism. I was getting nervous though that with the mainstream they may not see it or they may be losing confidence within that context. We have to really consider what this means for them and why they are bringing those concerns forward.
With the data we gathered this year we are looking at how to capture a child who may have Down's syndrome and very often a cognitive challenging profile for them. We are trying to capture that as best we can this year. It is not that we do not open classes for children who have that profile; it is that we do not open classes specifically for children with Down's syndrome. We look more at the cognitive profile. Hopefully in our data this year we might see a rise in that number coming forward. Parents last year may not have been as aware of it as they will be this year. We have engaged with Down Syndrome Ireland on it as well, which is a valuable stakeholders to us, to understand the needs of those parents and of those children, to have a look at what provision might look like for them, and again to work with schools to support their children in as inclusive a manner as possible.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That concludes members' questions. I am conscious that we are all against the clock but there may have been questions or remarks the witnesses did not get to close out. If it is okay we will go down along the row of seats if anyone wants to comment, or maybe they do not have comments to make. Witnesses may have a minute or so each if they just want to close out bits that needed a bit of closure.
Ms Lisa Kelly:
The special education teacher, SET, training was brought up by Senators and Deputies today. SET teachers are involved in Oide's professional learning days at both primary and post-primary level. While our provision is curricular based, which we talked about today, a large portion of that curricular-based professional learning is around supporting teachers to support all students in their classes. As our colleague, Ms Walsh, mentioned today, every teacher needs to be upskilled and have the tools to support all of those children, including those with special educational needs. While it is not specific, the specific training is at post-primary at the moment, Oide's wider professional learning is always cognisant of the needs of those teachers within the wider teacher population.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Ms Guerin wish to make any final remarks?
Mr. Brendan Doody:
I have nothing to add beyond welcoming the opportunity to engage with the committee and colleagues on the disability committee on the forum. I think the forum will be a really important next step in this journey towards inclusive education.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Absolutely.
Ms Angela Corcoran:
A general point that I failed to mention is the national training programme for special needs assistants. It is really important that this gets a mention because 4,200 SNAs have completed that course over the past four to five years. This is a reflection of the commitment of SNAs to training, which I mentioned already. I thank the committee for its work and members' interest in special education. I am sure I speak for everybody here when I reiterate our commitment as a Department to progressing an inclusive education and to ensuring that every child feels supported in school and can attend and participate fully in schools. All of our work is undertaken with that objective in mind.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. Rogers.
Ms Helen Walsh:
I just want to acknowledge the depth of the questions that always come from members of this committee. I really value the depth of those and the care for all of their constituents that triggers those type of questions. I wish to emphasise the future of professional learning for our teachers, our SET teachers and for our SNAs moving into the future. The National Council for Special Education intends to meet those professionals where they are at. Our support of them within professional learning within our service delivery model is interdisciplinary. It will be wraparound for schools. I also acknowledge the work of special schools across the State over the past year. They cater for and support our most complex children in so many ways. I just want to acknowledge their work and thank the committee.
Mr. John Kearney:
I will pick up on the point the Cathaoirleach and many other committee members raised previously. I wish to reaffirm to everybody, and to parents in particular, that there are two aspects to the portal: the planning and the provision aspect itself. There were concerns this time last year in relation to the portal and timelines, but 7,860 parents came to us for 1 October and many more came after that. I concur with the Cathaoirleach's contribution in relation to the supportive role of schools in the assisting of that. There are wider communication aspects in trying to reach out to parents. We are leaving no stone unturned in that regard. We are very much co-ordinating with our Department of Education and Youth colleagues and liaising with the children's disability network teams right across the country. There is a social media campaign. We are working with the National Parents Council and the various advocacy groups, and a parental webinar is being held in relation to that. We also have enhanced the efficiency and effectiveness of the portal and it is now a very transparent process that take in the region of just five to seven minutes for parents to complete the portal entry. We are aware there are some issues in relation to parents, but again we will not leave any stone unturned in getting to them.
I concur with the comments of my colleagues here. The breadth and depth of the committee has to be commended, as well as the unique ability to look at the most challenging of systemic issues right down to the transfer of individual school operational data. I commend the level of rigour and attention to detail from the committee, under the Cathaoirleach's stewardship, in assisting the national discussion on inclusive education.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
On behalf the committee I thank all of our witnesses. The NCSE's Oireachtas email service has been excellent of late. A few members have mentioned that. We have parliamentary questions but the Department emails have improved a lot and that is appreciated.
I thank all of the witnesses from the Department and from the different agencies represented here for what they do for education and, most importantly, what they do for inclusive education. From talking with the witnesses individually - and sometimes we google who they are - I know they have a lifelong interest in this. They do not just come in here as a clocking-in exercise. They are playing a fully invested role in each of the bodies they represent. We appreciate that they come here to drive on the agenda of special education. On behalf of students and parents, we thank all of them for that. I thank them again for being here today and for their testimony. I thank members too, as this is our final meeting of the summer. We will not be back until September, unless something profound happens in the country, but you never know.
I particularly thank the unsung heroes. We always hear the members' voices but we have Tara, Tetiana and Patricia, who do a colossal amount of work. They are the first point of engagement for all of us. The amount of work that goes into co-ordinating some of this stuff is colossal given the paperwork and the notes they prepare for us and it is massively appreciated by all members. On behalf of the committee I just want to sincerely thank them, as well as the technical team in the room who make all these meetings possible.
The committee stands adjourned until Wednesday, 16 September 2026. We will meet at 12.30 p.m. in private session and then proceed to public session. I thank the members of the committee for their commitment and collegial approach throughout the year. I hope they all have a lovely and safe summer. Please God, we will see one another in the autumn.