Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 15 July 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Climate, Environment and Energy
Plug-In Solar Technology and Regulation: Discussion
2:00 am
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from an Teachta Dála Malcolm Byrne and an Seanadóir Mark Duffy.
In our first session today from 12.30 to 1.30 we will have an engagement with witnesses on plug-in technology and regulation. I welcome from the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment, Mr. Robert Deegan, principal officer; Mr. Fergal McParland, chief technical adviser; and Mr. David Phelan, senior technical adviser. I remind everybody in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.
Before I invite the witnesses to deliver their opening statements, I advise them of the following in relation to parliamentary privilege. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
The format of the meeting is that I will invite Mr. Deegan to make an opening statement to a maximum of five minutes. Once that statement has been delivered, I will then call members of the committee, in the order they indicate to me, to put their questions. The committee operates a rota system which gives each member an initial five minutes to engage with our witnesses. As the five minutes is for both questions and answers, I ask everyone to be succinct in their questions and responses. The duration of this meeting is limited and, therefore, the times must be strictly adhered to. I ask everybody to be focused in their contributions.
I invite Mr. Deegan to make his opening statement on behalf of the Department.
Mr. Robert Deegan:
I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the invitation to discuss plug-in solar technology and regulations. I am joined by colleagues from the Department, Fergal McParland, chief technical adviser, and David Phelan, senior technical adviser.
Since 2022, we have seen significant increases in the prices that households pay for energy. The Government is acutely aware of the challenges that households face in meeting these costs and remains fully committed to supporting them. In this regard, the Minister, Deputy O’Brien, has indicated his strong support for innovation in the energy sector to help customers save on their bills, provided such innovative technology is safe and securely integrated. Plug-in solar systems are an important example of such an innovative technology.
Plug-in solar systems are very small PV energy systems, usually two or three modules and less than 1 kW in total per installation, which are connected to a micro-inverter and plugged directly into a household socket. This then feeds the home’s internal electricity system. Given the size and nature of the systems, they can be implemented in settings such as apartments, where traditional solar PV systems may not be suitable. For instance, they can be put on balconies or other outdoor spaces. They would also be of benefit to tenants in rental properties.
Plug-in solar systems have seen a rapid adoption in recent years in continental Europe, particularly Germany. In addition to helping households save money on their energy bills, plug-in solar can also reduce our exposure to volatile fossil fuel markets and help further our drive for homegrown renewable power, thereby supporting our energy security.
I take this opportunity to update the committee on important recent steps taken to facilitate the introduction of this technology in Ireland. On 5 May, the Minister, Deputy O’Brien, wrote to ESB Networks requesting that it work with the relevant bodies to prioritise and accelerate the development of standards that will permit the use of plug-in solar systems in Ireland. The managing director of ESBN responded to the Minister on 21 May confirming ESBN's support for the safe, proportionate use of small, plug-in solar or battery devices up to a total of 800 W, provided that customer and public safety are prioritised and assured, network integrity and power quality are maintained in all operating conditions, the DSO has appropriate visibility of connected generation through a simple registration process, and devices meet the relevant technical and product standards.
A working group was then established to address the technical, safety and other issues that need to be addressed so that the technology can be introduced as quickly as possible.
Officials from the Department; ESBN; the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU; the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI; Safe Electric; and the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC; are represented on the working group which is chaired by ESBN. Other key stakeholders will be engaged with as necessary.
The working group met on 9 and 25 June and a range of workstreams, including an appraisal of potential options for implementation of the technology, is under way. The next meeting will take place on 23 July and work on related matters is ongoing in advance of that meeting.
In terms of the next steps, the working group is working intensively to assess options and to prepare a report with recommendations to accelerate the deployment of plug-in solar in Ireland. Similar to the UK and other jurisdictions, there are three key areas of consideration. The first is what changes to the legal and regulatory framework are needed. This is a critical area of engagement. At present, existing Irish arrangements treat domestic microgeneration as an electrical installation undertaken by a registered electrical contractor, notified to ESB Networks through the NC6 process. The working group is reviewing options in relation to how this model could be changed. This includes an assessment of proposed changes to wiring rules in the UK and other jurisdictions to facilitate domestic plug-in solar.
The second is what product standards should apply. There have been very proactive developments in plug-in solar product standards both in Germany and via the proposed product standard set out for consultation by the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero in the UK. These and others will be considered by the working group.
The third is what process can be applied to ensure the registration and visibility of connections by the distribution network operator. The working group has also made good progress on assessing how the existing NC6 process could be modified to address the requirement for registration of devices by domestic users of the distribution network operator in a simple and efficient manner. The working group will also be engaging with a range of other stakeholders including EirGrid, given the technology's impact on the transmission network, the UK Department for energy security and the UK-based Electricity Networks Association given the evolving UK position on the technology. EU guidance and the experience in Germany are also being considered. The working group intends to submit a report with recommendations to the Department and Minister in September addressing these key points.
In conclusion, the Department is working with the key stakeholders nationally and internationally to progress the roll-out of plug-in solar in a safe way as quickly as possible. Given the impact that the technology can have on household bills, plug-in solar is likely to be included in the national energy affordability task force, NEAT, action plan which will be brought to the Government in the third quarter. I again thank members for the opportunity to address the committee today. My colleagues and I are happy to answer any questions they may have.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Deegan. If I could just clarify, he used one acronym - DSO - what is it?
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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No problem.
Naoise Ó Cearúil (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being here this afternoon. This is a really positive development. There has been a lot of commentary around plug-in solar. It is great to see that there is advancement here. I commend both the Department and ESBN on their work to date.
I have a few questions to start off. Near the end of his statement, Mr. Deegan mentioned that the NEAT action plan will include plug-in solar as an element. Will that be a recommendation in the NEAT action plan or will it be part of how we implement plug-in solar across the country?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
It is most likely to be a very strong commitment to continue to progress this. Obviously it will be dependent on the work of the working group, which is going to set out the roadmap for how we are going to bring this forward as a technology and implement it at scale. Everything to do with NEAT is subject to Government approval, so it is kind of speculative to say for definite what it is going to look like. Given the importance of the technology, in particular for people in rental accommodation and apartment buildings, it is likely that it will be included.
To hopefully give the Deputy a little reassurance, in the NEAT process so far, one of the pillars of the national energy affordability task force is specifically looking at energy poverty and affordability issues relating to that. The first step was to look at who are the people most at risk of energy poverty. It is people in rental accommodation, among others, such as people with disabilities and single-income households. Those are the kinds of population cohorts that have been identified. What we are trying to do is identify solutions for each of them and plug-in solar is part of the mix of measures.
Naoise Ó Cearúil (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. Mr. Deegan might not be able to give me a direct answer yet. It is great to see the progress here. When do we envisage that a person living in an apartment can purchase plug-in solar for their balcony and start using it? When does Mr. Deegan envisage that happening? We will have the action plan in the third quarter, and the work of the task force. Will it be in early 2027 or is there any sort of timeline here?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
I fully appreciate that it is the obvious question but it would be premature to give a definitive timeline to a committee like this without seeing the outcome of the report. What I can commit is that the Minister has written to ESBN and the relevant stakeholders have been mobilised to progress this as quickly as possible. It is about finding solutions to problems as opposed to putting up unnecessary delays or barriers. I am not in a position to put a precise timeline on it at the moment but the ambition from the Minister and all of the other stakeholders engaged in the process so far has been towards trying to get this done as quickly as possible.
Naoise Ó Cearúil (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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As part of that as well, in particular from the NEAT perspective would there be any type of plug-in solar? When we speak about vulnerable energy users, there should be a link with the SEAI. What would be super to see in the future would be some sort of grant system through the SEAI for plug-in solar for people from more financially difficult backgrounds.
This question might be for ESBN rather than the Department's officials. As Mr. Deegan said in his statement, plug-in solar systems are "usually two or three modules and less than 1 kW in total per installation", however, ESBN is recommending 800 W. Why is there a discrepancy there?
Naoise Ó Cearúil (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine.
Mr. Fergal McParland:
Briefly, 800 W or VA is the setting that people have landed on to allow a controlled environment that is safe from a domestic perspective. The safety assessment is still under way but 3.5 amps or 800 W is taken as an appropriate set for the introduction of plug-in solar. Compared to Germany, there may be a little over spec of the actual plans themselves. Given the climate and where we are, people have settled on that range.
Naoise Ó Cearúil (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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That is fine. Gabhaim buíochas.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses are all very welcome. This is a scheme that should tick all of the boxes. It will help us to achieve climate targets. I am sure the witnesses will agree with that. It should ease pressure on the grid in some way if people are accessing power directly. Do the witnesses agree with that as well? Obviously it is renewable energy. Most importantly, it should reduce pressure on people's bills, especially those in lower income households because they would be able to access it so easily.
In his statement Mr. Deegan agreed that recent progress has been made in homegrown renewable power. Reference was made to the witnesses' involvement in the next steps. They are preparing a report to accelerate the deployment of plug-in solar. A working group has been established and it is going to submit a report with recommendations to the Minister in September. Mr. Deegan said the working group has made good progress on how the NC6 process can be modified. In the last two years since we started looking at this, Germany has 4 million plug-in solar systems operating. The UK has concluded that they can be deployed safely with the standards. There is a lot of frustration with people's bills in particular. Is Mr. Deegan happy that the progress has been fast enough, given the comparison with how quickly they have moved in other jurisdictions?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Deegan said the Department has been looking at that jurisdiction.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I take it there have been learnings from what is being done in those other areas.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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It is a bit frustrating for people to wait and wait for stuff that should have been ironed out. We will be making progress in the working group and reports will be submitted. Is Mr. Deegan happy we are moving as fast as we can?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
As I mentioned, Germany is the trail-blazer on this. It has gone ahead. Most other countries are not in the same position. Austria, Belgium and others have made a little more progress than us. The UK is consulting at the moment. It has not introduced this. Some of the media coverage might suggest they are available in shops and are being rolled out. That is not the case. We have been in ongoing contact with the institutions there. The Department and ESBN have been in touch with their colleagues. There are challenges. When you are bringing technology policies or anything like this from one jurisdiction to another, you are not beginning from the same starting point. The Minister wrote to ESBN two months ago and there has been very rapid progress since then. While we cannot control what happened in the past, we can control what is happening now. All the shoulders are to the wheel and progress is being made as quickly as possible.
We have tried to communicate that a little today. The committee will also hear directly from ESBN on what it has been doing. It is starting with the wiring and electricity part of it but it is quite wide-ranging. We are engaging with the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment, the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, and the Department of housing. The relevant stakeholders will be mobilised to progress this as quickly as possible. We have shown very good progress in Ireland on solar PV as a technology in recent years. Solar PV panels have been installed on 120,000 houses and that figure does not include new-build houses, of which, I think, there are another 20,000 or 30,000. There has been very strong progress on solar as a technology.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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When did the Government first start looking at it?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Deegan said the Government is not just aware of the challenges but acutely aware of the challenges. From his wording, there seems to be a real urgency but that is over two years ago now. There does not seem to be the urgency that Mr. Deegan suggests when he says the Government is "acutely aware".
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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If it really was that urgent, should there not be a bit more progress?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Surely we should have got over the safety concerns at this stage at least?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Could the Department not regulate for those rather than trying to do everything before we kick off?
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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We will hear from the next speaker.
Mr. Robert Deegan:
The process started two months ago. What we are doing at the moment is identifying the risks at the household level, the local network level and the transmission system level. We will identify those risks and take them off one by one and come up with a solution. It is two months into concentrated work on this. It is important to-----
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I have one final question. When does Mr. Deegan think it might be available?
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Very quickly, Mr. Deegan. I would like a short answer, please.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Will it be by the end of the year?
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I thank the witnesses. This is a very welcome development. In looking at the regulatory and safety framework, etc., is the Department giving consideration to plug-in storage as well as just the panels? On the Continent, you can go to IKEA in Belgium and buy the panels for €400. You can buy battery storage for €800. You are kitted out for a very reasonable cost, with a payback period of two to three years. That is an attractive prospect for a lot of households. The battery storage also gives the opportunity to deploy and use the power at peak times. That would be really significant in this.
Mr. Robert Deegan:
It is a very interesting and important point. Battery storage definitely has a part to play. There can be a timing issue. It is interesting that the UK is not looking at batteries at the moment. It is focused on the plug-in solar technology and not looking at batteries at the moment. I will hand over to my colleague Mr. McParland.
Mr. Fergal McParland:
As Mr. Deegan said, what we are trying to do with the working group is accelerate and probably do it on a phased basis. The regulatory and legislative framework associate with plug-in solar is, in itself, complex. The objective is to try to unravel that and make sure we get that right as quickly as possible.
The UK approach is relevant. We mentioned Germany. Over probably a ten-year period, Germany sequenced its approach to plug-in solar. It started off with dedicated circuits and dedicated sockets. It then developed a legislative framework to carry that forward and be more openly available. In the UK, alongside a safety assessment that is still live and up for consultation, and it is a significant part of its pathway for delivering these onto the market, they have landed on a controlled environment for plug-in solar and that environment does not include storage for the moment. Via the working group, we will propose to look at that in phase 2. To be immediate and get an appropriate framing of this, the first thing we are doing is looking at the Irish jurisdiction and the legal and regulatory framework around plugs as a product and then the legislative framework to unravel the NC6 process, which is in place with ESB Networks. It is, first, bite-size to try to stage this process and, second, the framing of this via the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, DESNZ, and its consultation is about assessing plug-in solar from a safety perspective and a legislative and regulatory perspective first. That in itself is complex. We can talk about some of the potential regulatory and standards changes we may require here. It is because of that complexity that we will probably keep to the plug-in solar remit to begin with.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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The Department does see that storage has really significant potential.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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Something crucial for the most vulnerable households and critical to the energy affordability action plan is the private rental sector. What role does the Department see for the RTB in the regulatory assessment? Would registration of houses that will provide that for tenants be done through the RTB or will legislative change be required to enable the private rental sector to provide facilities for tenants, rather than having an ad hoc system where tenants might bring solar panels with them to a house or provide them themselves? How does the Department anticipate that might work in the private rental sector?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
We are at a stage in the process where we have not got to that particular challenge but we will engage with our colleagues in the Department of housing on the rental sector and all the agencies that are relevant to it, as well as the local authorities. The Senator asks a very valid question which we do not have an answer to at the moment.
On retrofitting and solar in the rental sector more generally, it is important to get the message out that there are very good supports available from the SEAI to the rental sector. There are grants available to landlords under the solar PV scheme and the other general schemes in the SEAI. There is also a tax rebate available for landlords. There is also a low-cost loan scheme available. Those measures together add up to quite a good package for landlords and the rental sector. The tenants get the benefit of that through lower energy use and more comfortable homes.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in to discuss this interesting topic.
Is Ireland going to adopt the German safety criteria?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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What alternatives are being looked at?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
Obviously, we are looking at it from an Irish perspective. We are looking at the approaches that have been used in other jurisdictions. Obviously, the UK is our closest neighbour. We are closely following developments on the consultation process that is ongoing. Our understanding is that the Department is due to respond to that consultation process later this month. We will be reading that with interest.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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ESB Networks, which will appear before the committee later, highlighted risks of thermal overloading, particularly where more than one unit is being used. How legitimate are those concerns?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
I will hand over to my technical colleagues in a moment but, from a policy perspective, it is important to take that kind of message seriously, given it is coming from an organisation like ESB Networks. There are real risks in this regard. If there were no risks, this would have been done already. We are trying to do it in a way that manages the risks in a proportionate way.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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The Department is considering setting a limit on the number of units that-----
Mr. Fergal McParland:
I previously mentioned the importance of a controlled environment as a way of describing how plug-in solar can work. The Department for Energy Security and Net Zero recommends, subject to the consultation under way, one unit per household. When it comes to the safety risk, the Institute of Engineering and Technology, IET, issued a joint statement prior to the consultation in the UK, which summarises the challenge. It is not clear how plug-in solar panels would work with the millions of electrical systems already found in homes, especially older properties. Many homes have ageing wiring, outdated safety devices or systems that have not been checked in years. A product that looks easy to use could end up being connected to a home electrical system that was never designed for it. In the worst case, it could increase the risk of overheating, fire or electric shock. That is a statement on the safety challenge.
The counter-argument that has been made is that these have been deployed in other jurisdictions. The DESNZ has carried out a jurisdictional assessment of that safety risk in the context of the types of circuits found in Ireland and the UK. It has published that safety assessment. While it is not a full assessment, it presents evidence that those safety challenges may be addressed. That is the subject of review by the working group in Ireland at the moment. Obviously, the consultation is still under way. I, therefore, want to be cautious about what we say in that regard.
The IET is talking about challenges such as daisy-chaining, where someone uses an extension lead to plug a number of these devices in. One of the challenges with this is that we are moving from a restricted environment that treats microgeneration as a fixed installation that needs oversight by a registered electrical contractor, REC, to one where it is being presented as a consumer-connectable product. Making that transition is challenging. We need to look at a rake of legislative and standard rules associated with those products. From a broader safety perspective, we also need to ask ourselves, similar to the questions asked in the UK, whether we are satisfied that transferring from fixed installation to product deployment satisfies the safety challenges that we have. That is a key question that the working group is asking at the moment. It is considering the options to address the issue.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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The CRU is being mentioned as a body that would be involved in this from an oversight perspective. Is it ready to do that, or will it require more resourcing?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
The CRU is part of the working group. The roles and responsibilities will be determined based on organisations' statutory roles and the determination as to how this is going to be implemented. The CRU is absolutely embedded in the working group. It is a full and active participating member of it.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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This is welcome. It is going to be great for renters, but we cannot take our foot off the gas around offshore energy as well.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I thank our witnesses for joining us today. Certainly, it is an interesting initiative from the perspective of reducing bills and emissions, promoting renewables and giving an opportunity for buy-in in an easier access, lower entry way. While not solely the case, I get the impression that this is predominately targeted at apartment blocks. Often, apartment blocks have a policy against satellite dishes. Solar panels are multiple sizes larger than them. Will that be a barrier to overcome?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
It is one of the issues that have been raised. We will have to engage with the Department of housing about that. Obviously, this issue, along with many of the other issues that we are going to go through, have been cracked in Germany. We have to take that into account. Solutions have been found. The working group is looking at this with a focus on solutions. As we are identifying these issues and risks, we are going to have to try to come up with solutions to them.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Is there a risk in this regard? For example, rather than solar PV being prescribed as suitable for a balcony, or whatever the case may be, we might end up with a free-for-all, where we have a bigger problem with satellite dishes, solar PV, storage and so on. That needs to be taken into consideration.
Mr. Robert Deegan:
It definitely needs to be identified. Everyone needs to be aware of the risks and challenges so that we can come up with solutions to them. It cannot be a case of ignoring them. We want to be fully aware of the implications in this regard, from an electricity system perspective and more broadly. Owner management companies, OMCs, have their own rules as well, so they-----
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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From an inclusivity perspective, anyone can apply for a SEAI grant, whether it be for attic installation, retrofits, air to water systems, heat pumps and so forth. In this situation, however, if someone's property is north-facing, is it a waste of time?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Would Mr. Deegan encourage a north-facing building to engage with plug-in solar?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Are we creating a two-tier system? I am just teasing this out with the witnesses. It is 100% for those south-facing properties, but it does not have that all-encompassing initiative and objective that other SEAI programmes have.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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For argument's sake, let us take an apartment block with 100 apartments. The 50 apartments on the south side can get it, while the 50 on the north side cannot. How do we create something equal or address the imbalance there?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
I am not sure there is a technical solution to that in terms of the panels or anything on that front. However, in the future, there will be energy sharing coming down the road under the electricity market design directive. There will be different solutions for different cohorts. I have to admit that it is not a problem we identified with this particular product. Obviously, it will not work as well for those on the north side of a building. We had not thought of it from a discriminatory perspective.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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If I get a contractor out to my home in the morning, the first question they ask is where the sun and the south-facing point are. There is a question about feasibility straight away.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that. However, in an apartment block in a built-up area where it could be a solution, only 50% of the apartments have eligibility and accessibility to it.
There is frequent reference to Germany in the documentation provided, but what is the current rate of adaptation among other EU member states?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Are we in the bunch or at the tail end?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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On a simple level, when I was a young fella, it was all about who left the immersion on. Take the scenario where, on a nice sunny day, someone living in an apartment leaves the solar PV on and leaves the apartment. Is that going to be the equivalent of the modern day immersion?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Is there a safety element to it? Could it pose a risk?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The objective is not microgeneration.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Of course, but not for additional-----
Ciarán Ahern (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. This seems like a bit of a no-brainer. I welcome the fact that we are having this session today and the work that the witnesses have been doing so far. It is about bringing low-carbon energy into what have up to now seemingly been quite hard-to-reach sectors, such as the rental sector. It is going to be a part of the solution.
My understanding of how this technology works is that it does not bring the same amount of energy that a rooftop solar panel would. You may be plugging your mobile phones, fridge, washing machine and things like that into it. Have the witnesses any sense of what it could and should be used for? Bearing that in mind, do they have any sense of how this might help to reduce people's household bills and by how? How long might it take to get back the investment you have put in to buy these plug-in solar panels?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
I have seen varied estimates of what can be gained. The one I would probably point to is the UK research, which estimated £70 to £110. The saving is very much dependent on how much electricity you use while you are at home. The electricity is being fed into your household, so whatever is running at the time is powered by the electricity being generated. I do not know whether my technical colleagues have anything to add.
Mr. David Phelan:
During the day, energy consumption could be between 400 W and 800 W. This could generate up to between 1.7 amps and 3.5 amps. That is the power equivalent. It powers whatever is on during the daylight period. It is through self-consumption, as Mr. Deegan said, that you get the benefit.
Ciarán Ahern (Dublin South West, Labour)
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You are not plugging things directly into it. Whatever is on in your house at the same time is powered. That is fair enough.
One of the benefits we have heard about these panels is that you can rock up to your local supermarket and pick them up from the middle aisle, go home, plug them in and get the benefit immediately. However, it seems from what the witnesses have told us today and what was in the opening statement that it is not quite as simple as that. There is going to be some sort of registration process. The witnesses have said that no household should be operating with more than one of these. How in practical terms do they see that working? When the consumer goes to the shop, will there be a registration process at the point of sale? Would you have to register before you can take the product home? How do they see that process working?
Mr. Fergal McParland:
This is one of the key points of discussion with ESB Networks, whose representatives will be able to talk about it a little. ESB Networks' NC6 process is designed for microgeneration. What we want to do is a simplified version of the NC6 process so that you can quickly register the device when you purchase it and bring it home. We do not have the details of the exact cycle. The point of selecting and registering the product is that the distribution system operator then has full visibility of the scale of plug-in solar that is coming onto the system. The transmission system operator would also have that. We are working to see how we can do this as opposed to how not to do it. It will be important in years to come that, in the transition to a low-carbon system, we have full visibility and our system operator is able to work to understand the demand profile in that regard. A simplified NC6 is the process for it.
The Deputy has asked how we control it. That is a part of the discussion around safety and the challenge around who can deploy it. The product specification in Germany was developed over several years. It is a substantial piece of work that provides detail on how the product should operate in a household setting. It was then modified by the UK's Department for Energy Security and Net Zero to address the plug-and-socket framework in the UK. Even in that context, in the consultation version, the product specification states that you should not deploy plug-in solar in a dwelling that does not have the appropriate protection circuits in place. With plug-in solar, you are transferring to the consumer the overall safety assessment by a registered electrical contractor that is currently in place in respect of microgeneration. That is not necessarily a bad thing. It is a matter we are assessing. The working group will try to figure it out. The controllability of that is obviously weak. The question is whether the product standard is fit enough to support that deployment. A safety test has been published by the UK department. It is subject to consultation. It deployed products - in a limited environment, it must be said - to test whether any material issues would arise. That is where that is at.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. I also thank the Cathaoirleach and the rest of the committee. On the costing point, Mr. Deegan said £70 to £110-----
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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The UK has different costs per kWh and similar weather. By my calculations, plug-in solar would save approximately €200 or €250 per year, with a payback period of approximately 14 to 18 months. It is important to put that on the record.
Some elderly people and those in social and affordable housing are struggling to pay their bills. A rooftop solar kit could cost anywhere between €6,000 and €10,000 after grants. The payback period is seven to ten years. Do the witnesses agree that the initial upfront cost of plug-in solar is better for people who do not have the money to pay a high upfront cost for a large-scale solar rooftop and that the payback period is a lot shorter?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
There are definite benefits to this technology. It all depends on your use. There are many variables in terms of the payback for either rooftop or plug-in solar, but there is definitely a place for this. The rental sector and the apartment sector are two sectors that are often seen as a little bit behind other sectors.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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That is brilliant and fantastic. I thank Mr. Deegan.
I want to ask about the consultation in 2024. I looked at the consultation submissions. Did the Department push back on some of the submissions it got from some people? It happened before I was elected, obviously, because I would have raised the issue had I been elected. The Department ran a consultation on the electricity market directive. I have looked at the five submissions on plug-in solar. The Electricity Association of Ireland, EAI, stated that plug-in solar should not be transposed because there is no established process, such as the NC6 form, for microgeneration. Energia stated that plug-in solar may not be appropriate and that with plug-in solar, it would be difficult to facilitate a similar process to the NC6 form. Bord Gáis Energy stated that these systems should be mounted on roofs where possible and hard-wired into dedicated circuits to the homeowners' consumer units rather than plugged into a socket in the wall. Electric Ireland stated that it supported the position set out by the EAI in its response with regard to plug-in mini solar systems. That is very good. ESB Networks, to its credit, did not oppose plug-in solar but stated that it would welcome further engagement.
In the submissions from Bord Gáis and others, the NC6 argument is simply wrong. Did the Department push back? Bord Gáis recommended rooftop hard-wiring. That is completely against the point of what we are trying to do. We are trying to get people who do not have access to rooftops the ability to use solar.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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Okay.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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It is brilliant.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I welcome that. I apologise for interrupting. It is just because of the clock. That was a consultation process and if some of the facts in consultations are wrong, the Department should push back against the semi-State company that is giving it the wrong advice. That was my question.
I understand the safety risk and that it is something that the Department needs to run at. How did Germany get away from the fact that someone could plug five of them into a single extension lead and plug it into the wall? Are we trying to suggest that Irish people are not as intelligent as German people and cannot put a single plug into a wall?
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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Very good.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I understand that. Germany's entire electricity system, and the entire country, was remade after the war. I understand the single-phase argument that Mr. Deegan is going to make and that Germany has a newer electrical system. I just want to know whether we can do a trial period faster because I have constituents struggling with wages and costs and this is something we can do immediately. I welcome Senator Noonan's contribution regarding battery storage.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Can we get a comment on the technical standards?
Mr. David Phelan:
On the wiring set-up in Germany, in simple terms, there is a single conductor cable going right out with a single point-of-use appliance. There is a very small number of sockets. In Ireland, we have a ring main, and we have a good number of sockets and devices on it. It is a completely different wiring set-up.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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Yes. The German system would have been better for a two-way flow. I understand that, but we all know how electrons work. They go to the path of least resistance. If there is a fridge or something on standby, for example, they are going to go there. With new-build apartments and most modern houses, could we roll this technology out as a pilot scheme in social and affordable housing, with Dublin City Council, DCC, and Fingal County Council, to save people money on their bills right now?
Thank God we are not in the sun because we would all be scorched. We have had brilliant weather and every time I am walking or cycling into work, I am thinking about how much money people could be saving on their bills immediately. I understand that the ISO standards need to be changed. There was no push-back regarding the 2024 consultation. Since then, we have seen the consultation in the UK, as well as the German work since 2016. Can some of their work be used to speed up the process and help people to save money on their bills?
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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Brilliant.
Mr. Robert Deegan:
We will be availing of any experience internationally that can be of benefit to us. The ongoing relationships we have with our counterparts in the UK will be helpful in that regard. We will be learning from what is being done over there. It is important, however, to reiterate the point that while the UK is consulting on this, it has not actually done it yet. When the next phase is complete there, and it will not be long before it happens because the response will be coming out on 22 July, we will get a lot of very helpful information from it. We are in here just a little bit too soon, and it is probably a little frustrating that we do not have all of the answers at the moment, but intensive work is ongoing. We will have those answers and we will be delighted to come back in later in the year to give the committee an update.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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Whether it is plug-in solar or other adaptations involving the Government, it is frustrating for the Irish people that we wait for the UK to do it first. Can we not lead and get it done before that country?
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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Brilliant. I thank Mr. Deegan.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. This is an important discussion. There are real opportunities with plug-in solar. As we mentioned, for people who cannot avail of standard rooftop solar systems, this technology could bring their cost of living and electricity prices down by approximately €200 a year, which is not to be sniffed at. It is a lot of money. We know a lot of people are struggling at the moment. We have just seen prices go up and up.
The witnesses mentioned Germany a few times. That country has had this system in place since 2019. It has been hugely successful over there, with over 1.5 million homes now having plug-in solar. We are very slow in dealing with innovation and new technologies. This slowness means it takes us so long to get anything in place that should be relatively simple, such as plug-in solar which has already been rolled out successfully in other countries, while at the same time people are just watching their bills go up and up. Similar to what has been said, can we get this technology out any quicker? I had a look at the ESB's documentation. Is it the case that someone can get plug-in solar now if they get an electrician to do it?
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I imagine that quite a lot of people living in apartments or rental units would be prepared to get an electrician and absorb that cost because they could get the system in place. Is this not something we could be saying to people? Could we not tell people that while we are going through the process of figuring out how this can be done without an electrician overseeing it, there is a way they can do it, if they need to and want to, using an electrician and here are the steps they need to take?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
There is nothing from a technical or electricity system perspective but, as Deputy Clendennen mentioned, there may be issues in respect of the owner management company or rules concerning what people can put on their buildings. These issues need to be looked at. There is a range of options. All these things are going to be considered by the working group and there will be pilots. These things are the types of potential options that could arise from going through the policy development process.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Are these plug-in solar systems for sale in Ireland at the moment?
Mr. Fergal McParland:
One of the key things is to make sure we have and certify a product specification that is based on the German technical specification, which has been amended. The usefulness of the UK amendment is that it treats changes for plugs and sockets that we have over here because we just import the British standards. That is very useful. The certification of a fit-for-purpose product is important. Where issues have arisen in Germany, and consumer tests have been done on deployments, it was not because of the types of safety issues we talked about. It concerned substandard products that have not complied with the standard. We need to get the product standard in place and then we need to make sure the type of legislative changes required, if necessary, are presented. The NC6 process, however, will allow those deployments.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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If someone had a system now, they could get an electrician to do it but we do not have the products here that have the specification. It is the standards stopping this happening now. How quickly can those standards be put in place?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
It would be helpful if the UK standards were set. We are such a small market that we tend to avail of those product standards. There is no standard at the moment that is a critical step in ensuring safety. It is to do with the wiring, product standards and registration. Each of these issues needs to be addressed.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I imagine that the safety standards will be introduced in the UK shortly. It would be possible then for someone to import this technology from the UK and get their electrician out to install it safely and legally.
Mr. Robert Deegan:
We would need to see what the situation will be at the time. These are hypothetical situations. These will all be considered, but the important part is that people will not be compliant if they plug it in themselves. If an electrician does it, and there is compliance with all the rules and regulations in relation to microgeneration, I can see where the Deputy is coming from on that.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I will clarify that.
I have a brief question on the affordability task force. One of the things being looking at was changing the definition of "vulnerable" when it comes to electricity bills and how people are dealt with by retailers. This is because "vulnerability" at the moment only refers to medical vulnerability and not to financial vulnerability. How far along is this process and will financial vulnerability be included? We have a huge problem with energy affordability here and not having financial vulnerability included in that definition is a real gap.
Mr. Robert Deegan:
It is an issue that is definitely being considered. We are working with the CRU on definitions and even providing clarification on existing definitions. It would be premature to say anything beyond that. It is one of the things being considered by the task force but no decisions have been made on it.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I have a couple of questions from my perspective. On the payback period, there must be some modelling in this regard. What is the best guess or estimate for the payback period?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
These systems are not available in Ireland now. We can work off other jurisdictions and what their payback periods are. Deputy Heneghan mentioned that payback can come after a year and a half to two years, but I have seen longer payback periods. It all depends on the use of the system, where it is located, how it is angled, how much of the power is used by the owner and whether they are at home to use the power generated. There are a lot of variables.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Assumptions will be made about payback in the assessment, presumably in terms of NEAT?
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Is 800 W an absolute limit? Is that the total generation capacity in a domestic unit, such as an apartment? A microwave runs at about 800 W or 900 W. It is not a huge limit.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Is there a risk of it being set too low?
Mr. Fergal McParland:
I do not think so. We are standardised across Europe. Germany was actually at 600 W mid-cycle through its deployment and then moved to 800 W after technical studies. It comes back to the IT concern around additional current running in a circuit and the ability of the protection scheme within a domestic setting to manage it. The ability of the inverter device, the scale and the panels are all set to work in a domestic setting.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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What is the registration about? It sounds like the technology will work. Once the standards are right and the technology will work, you will be able to plug it in and get it running. What is the registration about?
Mr. Fergal McParland:
The registration is critical for the distribution system operator, DSO. It provides visibility of the scale and the number of these. Hopefully, we will have a successful deployment of plug-in solar and it will become really important from a NEAT perspective, as we talked about. It is not just the Irish DSO. All distribution system operators in Europe and the UK want visibility of the level of plug-in solar so they have an understanding of the net demand on the distribution network. As there is significant roll-out of this in combination with broader solar, wind and other low-carbon technologies, it is really important that the DSO and the TSO have full visibility of what the load looks like. That is effectively what it is about.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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So, effectively, it is external to the installation. Is the NSAI involved in any of this? I presume it is.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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On Deputy Heneghan's question about the 2024 consultation, it is clear some of the bigger players in the market did not like this idea. They probably like to control generation. This is a source of energy they will not control. Is the Department still detecting that or are people accepting we need to move on to this?
Mr. Robert Deegan:
We are not seeing any push-back to the Minister's announcement and the working group's work. Things have moved on a lot. It has only been a couple of years but things have moved on quite a bit. Those consultation responses identified risks, problems and challenges. It is for the working group, the Department and all the other stakeholders to work collectively to overcome those.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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That is great. We are just about out of time. I thank all the participants for coming in and presenting their statement and taking our questions. We will publish the opening statement on the committee website, if that is okay. We will suspend now to allow this group of witnesses to leave and our next group to come in.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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We will now resume our engagement with witnesses on plug-in solar technology and regulation. From ESB Networks DAC, we have Mr. Nicholas Tarrant, managing director; Mr. Alan Rossiter, head of strategy and network development, and Ms Bevin Cody, strategy, stakeholder engagement, innovation and electrification. From Bundesverband Steckersolar e.V., which is the German association of plug-in solar, Mr. Craig Morris, CEO, is joining us via Microsoft Teams and from Alexa Capital, we have Mr. Gerard Reid, partner and co-founder. They are all very welcome.
I remind everybody in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off. Before I invite the witnesses to deliver their opening statements, I advise them of the following in relation to parliamentary privilege. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
I will invite the witnesses to make an opening statement to a maximum of five minutes. Once the statements have been delivered, I will call members of the committee, in the order in which they indicate to me, to put their questions. The committee operates a rota system that gives each member an initial five minutes to engage with our witnesses. As the five minutes is for both questions and answers, I ask everyone to be succinct in their questions and responses. The duration of this meeting is limited and, therefore, the times must be strictly adhered to. I ask everybody to be focused in their contributions.
I now invite Mr. Tarrant to make an opening statement on behalf of ESB Networks DAC.
Mr. Nicholas Tarrant:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to today's meeting. I am the managing director of ESB Networks and I am joined by my colleagues Alan Rossiter, head of strategy and network development, and Bevin Cody, senior manager responsible for innovation and electrification in ESB Networks.
We welcome to opportunity to discuss plug-in solar technology and regulations with the committee today.
On the area of safety and technical standards, as the distribution system operator, ESB Networks requires visibility of all generation connected to the distribution network for the purposes of maintaining system security, regulating voltage, managing congestion and planning future investments and flexibility needs. Our role does not extend to the approval of standards for devices such as plug-in solar.
ESB Networks recognises that a robust legal, safety and technical standards framework is needed to protect customers behind the electricity meter within their homes. The responsibility for developing such standards and frameworks lies outside of ESB Networks’ remit. ESB Networks, at the request of the Minister for Climate, Energy and the Environment, is engaging with relevant bodies, including the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, Safe Electric and the CRU, to co-ordinate our respective roles with a view to setting out a shared pathway to accelerate the deployment of plug-in solar. We have convened a cross-industry working group to progress this, and it has met twice in June 2026.
Members of the working group have identified a number of technical and safety risks associated with the deployment of plug-in solar generation that need to be taken into consideration in the development of a standards framework. For example, the existing wiring in a customer’s home may not be suitable for the introduction of bidirectional power flows where power is either imported from or exported to the electricity network. Protective devices in the home may not operate as intended in the case of a fault. There is also the possibility of thermal overloading, particularly if more than one unit is installed. The working group has made progress in identifying potential solutions to address these issues and we will continue to support the work to finalise proposals for the Minister and the Department while closely monitoring developments in the UK.
In the area of alignment with UK standards, ESB Networks is participating in discussions regarding the evolving situation in the UK through our membership of the Electricity Networks Association, ENA, with a view to ensuring that a consistent approach is taken by the distribution system operators across Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. The situation in the UK is evolving. Two consultations on plug-in solar have recently concluded, one relating to network standards, led by the ENA, and the other relating to interim product specifications and standards, led by the UK's Department for Energy Security and Net Zero.
ESB Networks’ existing process for managing the connection of microgen has enabled almost 200,000 customers to connect rooftop solar to the distribution network to date, largely on an inform and connect basis. This process is currently available to customers wishing to install plug-in solar and storage devices but requires sign off by a registered electrical contractor. We recognise that this process is not fully suited to plug-in technologies. We have reviewed the approaches taken in other countries and have identified changes to our standards and procedures that would support the deployment of this technology in Ireland while also maintaining network visibility. Specifically, this work will involve updating the conditions governing the connection and operation of microgen and expanding ESB Networks’ low-carbon technology register to include network-compliant plug-in generation devices. These changes will allow for the introduction of simple online processes for customers to register compliant products. ESB Networks is working to progress these changes as quickly as possible so that they are ready to implement once the wider safety and technical standards framework is in place.
ESB Networks is acutely aware of the cost pressures that electricity customers are facing and the opportunity that plug-in solar may present for wider participation in the energy transition. The necessary safety and technical framework is paramount and critical for maintaining public trust. ESB Networks will progress the changes necessary within our systems, as they relate to our responsibilities as distribution system operator, to simplify the connection process for these devices. We will continue to engage with other agencies and the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment over the coming months.
Go raibh maith agaibh. We are happy to take questions from members in due course.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Tarrant. I invite Mr. Morris to give his opening statement on behalf of Bundesverband Steckersolar.
Mr. Craig Morris:
I thank the committee for the invitation to speak today. Plug-in solar represents a new opportunity for a large swathe of the population that has not been able to participate in the energy transition at home to date. To be clear, rooftop solar is wonderful, but not everyone has access to their roof, nor does everyone have the roughly €10,000 needed to install a rooftop PV. Fortunately, these people can now get started generating solar power at home for only around €500 euros thanks to plug-in solar.
Plug-in solar is much less expensive for two reasons. First, the systems are smaller. Second, they do not require a professional roofer, nor is an electrician necessarily required. By and large, people can safely install these systems themselves. In Germany, roughly one household in ten has already done so. If legislators then minimise red tape, such as no permitting required and a simple registration, a mature plug-in solar market will quickly emerge.
Are systems installed by non-professionals safe? I will not ask the committee to take my word for it. Instead, I will refer members to the German firefighters' association and to German insurance firms. Members can find references to both of these sources in our white paper from June 2026. German firefighters see no increased risk from plug-in solar and merely want to ensure that any PV systems installed do not block a balcony from being used as an emergency escape exit. German insurers agree about the low risk, which is why they simply include coverage of plug-in solar in standard home contents policies, without raising the premium.
What should a proper policy for plug-in solar look like? It should include a right to install. Property management and local authorities must have good reason to block residents, including owners, from installing plug-in solar, as these systems do not permanently change a building. They can be removed without a trace. The policy should define the size of plug-in solar in alternating current, AC, terms, meaning the inverter and not the solar panels, as is usual for solar arrays. The standard in Europe is becoming 800 W. Require registration but make it simple. For example, offer a small incentive of €20 to have people sign up for it with their names, addresses, power meter numbers and basic solar information. This would make the process feel like they are signing up for a rebate and not being forced to register their system. Ireland's grid operators will thank legislators.
In addition, the Government should add plug-in solar to existing one-stop-shops for community energy. The public needs to understand how this technology works, how to install it, what payback can be expected, and when they should contact an electrician to be on the safe side, such as when their breakers already trip regularly. Likewise, property managers, housing firms and local officials already have full plates and are not waiting for plug-in solar. A campaign is needed with the help of civil society to get everyone informed and on board. The Bundesverband Steckersolar, BVSS, has already produced a lot of material that can be used for these purposes, and we are happy to help Ireland design future schemes. I should add that our board chairman is the convener of the German standards working group for plug-in solar, if the committee would like us to negotiate with Irish standards experts.
Up to now, households that did not have enough spare cash for proper rooftop solar or that could not make decisions about their roofs have been asked to help cover the cost of the energy transition without being able to generate their own solar power. Now, almost everyone can get involved. The next steps will be flexibility from plug-in batteries, which we are already seeing more of in Australia and the United States than in Germany. Then, all households will truly be able to play a role in the energy transition and Ireland's grid operators will really thank legislators.
I look forward to members' questions.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Morris. I invite Mr. Reid from Alexa Capital to give his opening statement.
Mr. Gerard Reid:
I will give the committee a little bit of context. I come from the finance world and have spent the last 20 years financing entrepreneurs in the energy space, working with innovative utilities to help them change their business models. I also help them to finance infrastructure.
I will give the committee my conclusion of where we are at. I have been out of Ireland for 25 years and have recently come back. It is probably important that the committee hears my outside-in view. The reality is that we are going through an energy revolution across our world and we are electrifying all of our energy systems. There are a few drivers of that. The first one is very simple, which is energy security. We can see what is going on in the Strait of Hormuz today. Our economies cannot deal with the volatility that comes around when there are crises in the gas markets and the oil markets. That is the first thing.
The second thing is that if one wants to decarbonise in a cost-effective way, one electrifies.
The third point, which is really important, is that there is incredible technology innovation in the electricity area that makes it much cheaper to use electricity than fossil fuels. I will give a very simple example of that. BMW announced the other day that it would basically be unable to make money over the next five years because the Chinese are not buying its cars. That is because the Chinese are buying electric cars. A total of 70% of vehicles being bought are electric. Why are they doing this? It is because they are cheap. Why do I say that? To explain, let us talk about what are the technologies in the electricity space that are revolutionising our world.
Number one is solar. We have never seen a technology in the energy space come to market as quickly as that. I will explain what I mean by that. Last year, enough solar was installed to power the whole of Japan. I ask the committee to realise what I have said there - the whole of Japan. The reason for that is because that technology is really quick to deploy and anyone can do it. When we talk about balcony solar and plug-in solar, it becomes even easier.
The second thing, which we have not yet spoken about, is lithium-ion batteries. Every one of us has a battery in our pocket. Combine solar with batteries and guess what? Suddenly, one is in a really interesting world.
The third thing is power electronics, that is, the management of all of this. If Werner von Siemens, the founder of Siemens, was here today, he would say "Oh my God". The management of this power system has not changed in 100 years. Give him a mobile phone and he would say "Good God, I don't know what to do with that". I am being facetious when I say that but the energy industry in general is resistant to technology change. What happens if one resists technology change? One gets in trouble. If I look at Ireland, I can see that Ireland has the most expensive electricity in Europe at retail, wholesale and industry levels. Why is this a bit of a disaster? One reason is the fact that Google, Microsoft, etc., cannot build their data centres here so if we are looking at the future of the country, we can see that they are moving. Let us be really clear. The next thing is that there are incredible levels of fuel poverty across the country and Ireland cannot build the infrastructure needed in the electricity space. Why do I say that? Why do I go back to balcony solar and plug-in solar? It is because they are part of the solution. If we want to decarbonise and reduce costs, we allow the customers to do that. I have a plug-in battery system and solar system in Germany. The reason I put it in is because I have a year and a half payback by putting in this system. By the way, it is not registered. I am being really honest with the committee; it is not registered. I will tell the committee what I did the other day. I put a battery beside it. I went to Lidl and bought a battery for €200 and suddenly I have got a solar and battery system, which is not negatively affecting the power system because I am using that power myself within the system, and I am doing that at half the price of buying it from my local utility. It is the exact same thing in Ireland. Why is this important?
If I was a politician in Ireland, I would put in place a funding system for balcony solar and plug-in solar across the country. I would say to people that they can have funding for the next six years. These people are saving €200 per year by doing this. I would win all the rural voters because they can put them in their gardens. I spoke about fuel poverty, which involves people who do not have houses in the country. They can use these balcony solar systems and can move with them. They can put them in their flat and move with them to their next flat. That is what one does to bring down the cost of power. One involves the consumer in it. The second thing that happens when one puts all this solar in the system is power prices go down. Wholesale power prices go down, which in turn is very good for the likes of Microsoft, etc., which need that power faster than Ireland can deliver. I thank the committee for giving me the time to talk.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank everyone for their contributions. Mr. Reid mentioned what politicians should do. Does he think that the State should meet upfront costs and do a split with consumers and householders in respect of giving them solar? There has been talk from a number of contributors this morning that in effect, one would need €10,000 to put in rooftop solar. It is very expensive and people on lower incomes are, in effect, excluded from it. It is like electric cars where one third of the grant money went to people who were buying cars worth €55,000 or more so it became a form of wealth transfer.
Regarding Mr. Reid's suggestion, this committee is also looking at the State possibly investing as governments in Montenegro and other countries have done. I am not sure if Mr. Reid is familiar with this. In these countries, the state gave money to householders and the householders then kept 50%. Householders got money back, money goes into the grid and household bills, which are the primary motivation, go down. Yes, it can ease pressure on the grid and meet our climate obligations but reducing energy bills, which are increasing year on year, is also important.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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That you are making your money back after a year and a half?
Mr. Gerard Reid:
I get my money back after a year and a half. I put the battery alongside it and I have a two-year payback instead of a year and a half. My other house is in Berlin, which has very similar solar radiation to south Wicklow. In other words, electricity prices are the same so the Deputy can see where I am coming from. There are really low paybacks for that and people can do this themselves when they understand that there is an opportunity. One has to educate people. That is the first thing.
If we really want to do this properly, in terms of getting in batteries and whatever, I would get the ESB involved. I would say to the ESB it has a customer here, suggest that it put in the solar system and the battery there and it will be financed over the savings. In other words, it is like if one is saving €100 per year and the system costs one €300, one does financing over five years and it is put on the balance sheet of the ESB. The ESB is then allowed to control the batteries because we would like those batteries to be used for the good of the system. This is called virtual power plant. My battery in Germany is already used like this so technically it is possible. What this does is lower the cost of electricity to the rural public and it can be done pretty quickly.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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One in ten households in Germany already has some sort of plug-in solar.
Mr. Gerard Reid:
They already have solar. The thing about plug-in solar, and Mr. Morris knows this better than me, is that once people know about it, they put it in. I mentioned earlier that my system in Germany is not registered. Why is it not registered? It is because the grid operator cannot see what I am doing so why would I bother registering? That is why Mr. Morris said we have to incentivise people to register. We should do a much more controlled roll-out of balcony solar, rather than letting it be chaotic.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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What were the concerns raised before the system became well known in Germany and have they turned out to be true? The concerns could relate to safety or the need for a permit. My understanding is the ESB is satisfied that there is no need for a permit. What were the concerns and how were they overcome in Germany to accelerate this?
Mr. Craig Morris:
The concerns were basically the same. It was a long process. We had the law before we had the standard. We had a growing market and were the first movers. I think Ireland will be a second mover. You can look at countries like Germany but you do not have to copy everything it did. You could also take a look at some of the things that Germany did not quite get right. There are other places you could look at. I will go back to something Mr. Reid has mentioned.
This is also something Germany has not really done. If you have a scheme where you say you will roll out these kits to low-income households, that could pay for itself on a rolling basis. You could say we are going to give away these systems to maybe 50,000 households per year. The households do not benefit right away from lower prices, but there is software you can get that will monitor the payback of these systems. When the systems have paid for themselves, that money can go back into this pot and you can install further systems with that. After this payback period, the people who benefit from these kits they got for free can then start benefiting from lower prices.
We pitched this idea to the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, DESNZ, in the UK because it was worried about fraud. If you try to subsidise something and install it, then people can sell it a few months later. It asked how it could prevent this. Under this scheme, the actual benefits do not start until the system has been paid off, so they have kept it for several years. Then, if they sell it they are just forgoing their lower power prices. This is one way you can have a limited budget and, over a number of years, more or less reach all of your low-income households.
Ciarán Ahern (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I thank all of our witnesses. There is a lot of enthusiasm for this new technology in political circles. I am sure they can get a sense of that. I am not sure if the witnesses heard the previous session, but we would love to get this rolled out sooner rather than later. It seems there is a tension between speed versus risks here. One of the risks that ESB Networks outlined in its opening statement was that the existing wiring in a customer's home may not be suitable for the introduction of bidirectional power flows. Having brushed up on my leaving certificate physics in the previous session, I believe there is a difference between how our houses and maybe those in the UK are wired versus how it is done in Germany. Maybe bidirectional power is easier here or our homes are more suitable than German homes for that. Be that as it may, how would a customer in Ireland know that their home may be at risk by installing a plug-in solar panel like this? Is ESB Networks looking at any of that?
Mr. Nicholas Tarrant:
I will recap our role in ESB Networks. Our role is as distribution system operators, so it goes as far as the customer's meter. We are looking for visibility of the export, going back to Mr. Reid's comments, to be able to manage the network outside where there is export. That is part of the existing regime for microgen. The working group has identified certain technical points that need to be progressed and that is being done on a multi-agency basis. We do not have a role on the wiring standards. There are different parties involved, as we highlighted in our opening statement. We are working with them so that everybody can progress with their specific roles to make progress here.
I will start with Germany. I am far from an expert on what happened in Germany. It was over a number of years that some of these questions were addressed about the technical aspects or the registration and so on. For us, there is maybe more of a parallel with the UK. The ongoing consultations closed there at the end of June. I know the department over there has also published a technical report we are studying, which deals with some of the questions the Deputy has. This is quite dynamic. It is building on the lessons and insights from Germany and moving on to take those on board and move forward. There will be specifics, and Ms Cody might comment on the working group.
Ms Bevin Cody:
The working group was convened at the end of May. It met twice in June and will meet again on 23 July. The reason it is meeting on 23 July is because the UK consultation on product specifications closed on 30 June. The Government is due to respond to that on 22 July, so the working group will get back together on 23 July to look at the outcome. One of the considerations in that is how the customer is going to know whether the existing set-up in their home is suitable for plug-in solar. Do you require the customer to take responsibility for that or are there other checks and balances that need to be put into the systems?
Ciarán Ahern (Dublin South West, Labour)
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I thank Ms Cody. I turn to the registration process. One of the benefits being sold for plug-in solar is that you can pick it up from the middle aisle, bring it home, plug it in, use it and benefit immediately. The witnesses mentioned a simple online process for customers to register their compliant products. I like the idea of the incentivisation they have in Germany. That seems to make a lot of sense. I query how they might reach elderly people or those who are not tech savvy. Have they thought about that or have they got that far in the process? Also, what is the risk to the network if registration is not done? Will they explain why registration is so important?
Mr. Nicholas Tarrant:
We have been looking at simplifying the registration process to make it as straightforward as possible. Again, we may take insights from Germany and our existing process for the larger microgen units going on rooftops today. We might make it as simple as possible. For specific customer groups like elderly people and so on, it is fair to say we have more thinking to do to make sure it is as inclusive as possible. I will ask Mr. Rossiter to speak to the types of things we look for in terms of the overall network. I take Mr. Reid's comment about whether it is important to us if there is limited or no export from a particular unit. We will set the scene about the broader point on export onto the network in general, particularly at low voltage.
Mr. Alan Rossiter:
The main area we look at from the DSO perspective is that, when the grid is disconnected from the premises, no flow of electricity can come from the property, in the interests of safety for our workers. There is a standard that covers that, EN 50549, that all current inverters and solar would comply with. Most devices comply with that. Within that standard there are various settings that cover overvoltage on the network, undervoltage and things like frequency, etc. The purpose of that is because the grid is common to all customers at that level. It is to make sure that other customers connected to that system get the same quality of supply as is mandated in our distribution code, so we can continue to provide the quality of supply within the specifications. It is fair to say that, individually, these devices are unlikely to pose any issues for the grid, but in aggregate they can pose issues we may need to look at in the context of bringing forward investment and upgrading the network, etc. It is in the aggregate that we need visibility of what is being connected rather than the individual necessarily.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I thank the witnesses. It would seem from the previous session and this session that it is not just about energy poverty but energy democracy. It is literally about giving power back to the people. There is a really good Maynooth University report on that democratisation of energy. I think that is critically important to try to address the serious fuel poverty challenges many families are facing.
I go back to the battery storage question. The prices in Belgium are €800 for a 2 kWh and €1,200 for a 4 kWh. It is reasonable. In the previous session with the Department, it said it was looking at the two issues of plug-in solar and batteries separately. There might be a sequencing on the battery storage. Will the witnesses explain the rationale behind that because I think we should be deploying all of it together? The storage is critical to it, especially the ability to use the power at peak times. That is for ESB Networks first, and the others might have a view on it as well.
Mr. Nicholas Tarrant:
When the Minister wrote to us, the first phase was to look at solar deployment in the first instance for self-consumption. A phased basis is what I expect to happen. We will deal with solar first and follow on with batteries. If we look at the broader picture around batteries, we are seeing a huge deployment of them in general already in the system, whether they be large utility-scale batteries, where there has been huge growth in the past two or three years with more to happen, right down to domestic users who are putting in microgen under the existing regime as well as batteries alongside that. We are also potentially going to trial middle-sized batteries at housing development level, on which we have engaged with the Commission for the Regulation of Utilities. We plan to work with various stakeholders over the course of the next 12 months to deploy that. There is a lot of activity happening around batteries, and with the price point, they have potential. The first phase was to introduce solar, subject to the points we made in our opening statement and which the committee heard in the previous session.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Do batteries and panels go together or in sequence?
Mr. Gerard Reid:
To go back to what I said earlier, the revolution taking place because of solar and batteries is off the charts. I will give the example of a very practical project I am involved with. It is a project in Portugal and we are combining batteries, solar, wind and some hydro. That is where we are going with all these projects. We are combining these technologies with storage and the reason we are doing it is economic. The most economic option is batteries behind the meter because if I am in front of the meter, in other words I am in a wholesale market, I am playing against a €50 per MWh price. While I am behind the meter, I am paying 30 cent for electricity and I can install these systems at ten or 12 cent. That is the revolution that is going on.
Across the Continent, I see utilities blocking these technologies coming to market because it is bad for their business, to be honest. What we mean by that is really simple. If I put solar and batteries in my home, I am buying less electricity from the grid. That is first and foremost. We have to change that attitude, and I hope Ireland does that, to realise we should use these as resources to bring down the cost of electricity and think about things in a different way. All of the technologies are there.
I do a lot of work with Google and Microsoft which are at the forefront of this. They want to do the best of the environment as well, but they want power. We need to begin to think a little bit differently and realise that the speed of technology change is something we have never experienced before. That is what I see every day. Costs keep going down. I came back from Italy last night and there is a company I am with in Italy that is doing 24-hour storage for Google data centres in the US. That is where we are going from our point of view.
Mr. Craig Morris:
To underscore what Mr. Reid just said, this is an area where Ireland could move faster than Germany. What it needs to have is plug-in batteries which run not to optimise the consumption of solar power behind the meter but to support the grid. Ireland could also have these batteries hooked up in households that are on the north side and do not have solar. We talked about that in the last session. It is also about people who have shaded facades. If we give them this option, they will be able to invest in the batteries which can run in grid support mode and we will then have the effect where we will not need so many power lines to be extended. The need for grid-attached storage - we are not against grid-attached storage - will be reduced. These are systems people will pay for with their own money. As Mr. Reid said, the business case is there because we are talking about 30 cent retail instead of what it is in Ireland for wholesale - a fraction of that.
Mr. Gerard Reid:
There is another case for storage. I live on the Polish border outside Germany. The reason I put in storage was because I want to back up power in case the grid were to be attacked by the Russians or something like that. It sounds crazy but that is what a lot of people in my village did. Why is this important from an Irish perspective? The reality is we have extreme weather. We have extreme sun now and extreme winds and people in the west of Ireland need back-up power. Guess what? We get back-up power with this. It is really simple.
Mr. Nicholas Tarrant:
It is important to emphasise the role we have in the ESB networks. We are an independent, regulated part of the ESB. It is a networks organisation and we have no reason in any way to want to delay or stop the deployment of plug-in solar. Over the past few years we have helped to accelerate solar power in Ireland, like many other countries, to drive it forward. This another phase. We have identified a number of things which need to be done to have the right regulatory framework, but we do not have a role in selling electricity, which is important to clarify.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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That is noted.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I thank our witnesses for their presentations. I have a question for Mr. Morris. What is the lifespan of the plug-in solar panels and is there enough research around their standard of safety maintained throughout their lifespan?
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I was going to ask that.
Mr. Craig Morris:
Those are standard solar panels. We have a unified look. These are glass solar panels, the standard kind used in a field or on a rooftop. They generally have a 25-year warranty. The micro inverters, which is the other major component along with the cabling, have a shorter lifespan, I am going to say, generally, more like ten years. They will have to be replaced every decade or so. This technology is not a different kind of solar but rather a different size that allows us in most cases to use a standard household socket.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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The price of electricity in Ireland was mentioned, and I know Germany is along the same spectrum in terms of the cost. Have people noticed? Is this selling itself? Have customers noticed the reduction in electricity prices?
Mr. Craig Morris:
This market over here exploded in 2022 when Russia invaded Ukraine. Germany's gas supply dwindled overnight and, as a result, retail power prices went up by about 50% that summer. People were looking for solutions. Whether this is measurable, I think I understand the Deputy’s question as whether this is measurable and can we say it has reduced retail rates by 3% or something like that. I do not think anyone has tried to disentangle all of the other effects from this. Certainly, for the households which have south-facing units that are not in the shade, these are not major investments by and large. We are not talking about a huge amount of electricity like we might with a rooftop, where you can go in the direction of 100% of your supply, or maybe even more to charge your electric vehicle. I would put payback at at least €100 a year and, as other people have mentioned, it can go towards €200 a year in the best cases.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Reid mentioned payback is a year and a half. Am I right in thinking that it might be slightly longer in Ireland?
Mr. Gerard Reid:
It depends where you are in Ireland. If you are in Wexford, it is really good. Obviously, the further north you go, the worse it is.
I want to make a point: it is so easy to install. I have it in my back garden in Germany and I just move it around. It is so simple to do. I will be honest and say to everyone in the room that I will have one here too, and they will not know I have it. To go back to the regulation process, that is why it is important to regulate it. They need to keep the grid open and keep visibility on it. I would say to the members that they need to make sure it is done in a really intelligent way. Mr. Morris made the point that Germany has done a lot of good stuff. It was among the first movers on this but it has been a bit chaotic in terms of how it has rolled it out.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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I have a question for Mr. Tarrant, whose attendance of this committee is better than some of the actual members. He mentioned the risk of thermal overloading.
Has ESB Networks done any research into the fact Mr. Morris mentioned? How legitimate are the witnesses' concerns about that?
Mr. Nicholas Tarrant:
What we tried to summarise in our opening statement are not necessarily concerns specific to ESB Networks. This is part of the working group that is working on this and that involves a number of agencies. If you look at some eminent institutions that have commented on this, including as part of a consultation in Britain, and the report on this, these are questions that have been raised about this type of implementation. The report that has recently been published in Britain, also by the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, has highlighted some areas that need follow-up around the technical standards and those kinds of issues. As I mentioned earlier, our role stops at the meter, going back to the point about visibility, but we wanted to highlight these technical issues that have come up, as part of the working group, that now need to be resolved, taking the various inputs. Germany has led the way, but even the report that was published by the department in the UK has highlighted that there is not a direct read-across. There are lessons from Germany but there are some technical differences that need to be considered. That is all part of the work. In fact, as Ms Cody mentioned, depending on the age of the house, the wiring etc., there are probably considerations that need to be factored in as part of that. How you advise customers to consider that and the technical standards are all part of the work that needs to be resolved over the coming period.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses. This is a really interesting discussion. This is my second term in the Dáil. Last term there was a real missed opportunity when it came to solar benefits for households. There was very much a focus on retrofitting, which is in itself very important, but the whole idea of people being able to manage their own energy and, indeed, make their own energy is really important. That is only through solar in many regards, so it is great that we are having this conversation. My understanding is that the Government seems to be moving and is certainly more open to solar and so on.
What I am probably most excited about in these conversations, though, is the discussion about batteries. We have had discussions here but they have been more about industrial batteries. What we have not done in this country is really look at the potential of that aggregate battery use, whether it is batteries on individual homes or using our cars as batteries. The potential for that is enormous. I have just recently introduced a Bill that would make the Minister utilise the wasted renewable energy. Some €500 million a year is wasted because we have wind farms that are switched off through constraint and curtailment issues. If we manage to get this right, with people plugging in their cars at night, creating that demand on the system and having batteries at home that were creating that demand on the system, we would not have that huge level of wastage.
What I am interested to hear, then, particularly from our international experts here, is what is being done in other countries. My understanding is that in Germany there is a move towards people using their electric cars and being paid to essentially absorb energy from the grid and then release it during the day at peak times. I am not sure if that is a hundred per cent correct, but I would be interested in hearing about that and what Mr. Reid is seeing internationally in this regard.
Mr. Craig Morris:
This is actually not really in the area of plug-in because you have to think about how big the car is and how much electricity we are talking about. A plug-in storage unit will be maybe 2 kWh or 5 kWh, whereas a car probably starts at 50 kWh. The Deputy is correct, though, that Germany has implemented smart meters that allow the grid operator to control when the car charges. This can be overridden but it would have to be overridden. If you are taking a trip and you absolutely need your car to charge, you can flip the switch, so to speak, and your car will charge. Otherwise, you plug in your car at night, and by the time you need to go to work the next day, it has filled up with electricity based on whether or not there is an issue on the grid. That is correct.
Mr. Gerard Reid:
From the international perspective, again, I will tell the committee what I do in my German home. I am doing vehicle-to-grid already. I am in the industry and I know the people and so on, but I have overbuilt a solar system and a battery and I did plug-in solar in and around it. I am off grid, just to be clear. Now, you might say I am a bit mad, but if you are in South Australia today, you are not going on the grid any more because, basically, you can put in batteries and solar and a back-up diesel genset and you generate electricity at half the price you are buying it from the grid. I say that to give an example of the speed of change and what is happening in other countries.
If the Deputy is asking me what we have to do from an Irish perspective, you have to use all the resources around you, and batteries are the key technology to reduce wholesale power prices. Again, I do a lot of work in the battery space. I cannot use batteries in the wholesale market in Ireland, so guess what: gas sets the price all the time. That is very bad for all customers in the market. We have to enable batteries. We are going into what I will call the batterisation of the world. We will have batteries in every device in our homes. We have the beginnings of it already in digital devices, but if you can imagine LG or something like that selling you a white good, such as a refrigerator, it will have batteries in it. Why? Because it makes business sense for the company. It does batteries already and it can do energy services business models in and around it. You might say I am being mad. Octopus in the UK is doing this right now. Octopus allows you to have free charging on your car at the weekend. That is the innovation that is going on. The other thing that is happening is that battery prices continue to go down while performance keeps going up. If you had asked me ten years ago if we would electrify planes, I would say no way. Today I would say, look at Ukraine. About 75% of its drones are electric, and they are battery powered. That is the world we are in, so the speed of change is what I go back to.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Does Mr. Reid think, from looking internationally at what is happening, that we are very slow here in Ireland to roll this out and to look at innovative ways of doing it?
Mr. Gerard Reid:
I am totally with the Deputy, but it is not just Ireland; it is across Europe. Europe is very slow, and I think the real challenge going forward is the grid. It is not building renewables. We can do that It is changing how the grid is managed. That is the key because grid costs have gone out of control across Europe. I am speaking from the German perspective as well so I am not just criticising Ireland. You can see this everywhere, and we need to change the incentives to make sure that there is incentivisation to do the right things. When I hear another grid operator say to me, "I'm going to build more grid", I ask, "Why? Why don't you just manage the existing grid you have in a better way?" By the way, we have the tools to do this these days. That is where I am coming from.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I have a question for the ESB. The amount of money a semi-state needs to operate is derived from taxes, levies, standing charges and all that. I know this is all dictated by the fact that the CRU sets a lot of these, but if we get to a point where households are essentially off grid and they only really need the ESB infrastructure on an ad hoc basis, I assume that is part of ESB Networks' discussions about what kind of future that would look like for the ESB. Has it costed that? Has it had discussions about whether that would require taxes in a different manner, or income to be coming into Mr. Tarrant's organisation from government solely rather than being derived on a customer basis? Has it had those discussions? Is this something it is actively looking at?
Mr. Nicholas Tarrant:
It is a very broad question but I will pick up on a few different dimensions to it. If you look at the drivers behind our investment plans at the moment, there are fundamental issues here that need investment. I am talking about investment in new transmission infrastructure and in the distribution network. What are the drivers of those? It is about connecting housing, for example, which is a critical issue, and that kind of investment in high-voltage infrastructure. There has been a huge amount of transmission investment to date, which has helped enable the connection of the wind farms and solar farms that are connecting, both historically and at the moment, and driven business connections and the whole area of decarbonisation, that is, electrification of-----
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I am surprised Mr. Tarrant has not mentioned data centres because I imagine they are the key driver of the requirement for grid enforcement.
In fact, in price review 6, PR6, shoring up of the grid for already contracted data centres was one of the main reasons for that €18 billion investment. Is that correct?
Mr. Nicholas Tarrant:
It is not one of the main reasons. What we said in our PR6 business plan was that we allowed for the fact that there were already contracted data centres, as part of that, at that stage. Since then, an updated connection policy has been published by the CRU and there is the Government's large energy user action plan, LEAP, strategy, which is a plan-led approach. Since the publication of that connection policy by the CRU, we have engaged on that with industry, along with EirGrid.
On the point made about the changes that are happening with usage or self-generation by businesses or domestic customers, there is a project under way with and led by CRU, around the tariff review. This is something that has arisen, not only in Ireland but in other countries, to look at the implications of the difference between fixed costs on the network around investing, for the reasons that I have mentioned, versus the volume-driven costs, to look at what is the balance and how they should be allocated in a way that is fair from a customer point of view. There is a lot of change in the industry and this is something that definitely will be taken forward in the future. It is more sitting with CRU around that tariff review and we are inputting into that.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I thank all of the witnesses for coming in today and I thank the Cathaoirleach for inviting everyone.
First, I thank the delegation from ESBN for engaging on plug-in solar usage and with meetings that I have had. I welcome its consultation in 2024. Before the delegation present came in here I congratulated ESBN, which I know is something that politicians do not do very often.
On the consultation and the technical concern about thermal overloading and power flows which have been mentioned, smart inverters are so small that one can fit into the palm of your hand. Smart inverters are also very intelligent pieces of hardware and software. Mr. Morris, who represents the German association, has just told the committee that they did not see an increased risk from plug-in solar. I understand from the previous correspondence that I have had with ESBN, about the difference between the plugs in Ireland and German plugs. With the hundreds of thousands of registered systems that operate in Germany, however, 4% of that country's electricity is generated by plug-in solar technology. Please correct me if I am wrong about that. If the problem has been solved in Germany, and in the first part of this meeting we heard from Department officials, can we not just look at what has been done in Germany and introduce it in this country in a month's time rather than in a year or two years' time? In a letter dated 21 May, ESBN has committed to a progress update before the end of July. I welcome that and wonder what is happening today?
Mr. Nicholas Tarrant:
There has been engagement with a working group, as we have outlined. There are a number of parties to that. There certainly are lessons that we can take from the work that has been done over a number of years in Germany. Previously, we just mentioned the parallels with the UK consultation that is going on at the moment and its recent technical report was published in June. Those elements need to be factored in and discussed as part of the work of the working group with a view to agreeing a way forward in Ireland.
Our role, as a distribution system operator, goes up as far as the meter. There are other parties involved in what happens behind the meter. In my opening statement I reflected some of the discussion that has happened as part of the working group. I definitely think that there is room to move forward and get those issues addressed, over the coming period, with the co-operation of the various other agencies.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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From an investment and market perspective, can Mr. Reid state what commercial opportunity is being delayed here? If Ireland legalises plug-in solar with battery storage, in conjunction with the €349 kit in Germany, what would this look like in terms of scale, cost reduction and consumer benefits to the Irish public?
Mr. Gerard Reid:
First, as we are electrifying everything, I am not worried about the electricity demand going forward. I am worried about how the hell are we going to supply that electricity. If we do not do balcony solar then it would be really bad for the Irish economy. It is bad for the customer because they still end up with this high-price electricity. It is also, without a doubt, bad for industrial policy because new industry will find it very difficult to come in here and the data centre guys - Google and those guys - will not build their next-generation data centres here and that is not good for the economy.
I wish to make it really clear that AI is the biggest industrial revolution in the history of mankind and if we miss that revolution then it is really bad. I want to say, as an Irishman, that Ireland missed the industrial revolution. Why? It was because Ireland did not have coal. An industrial revolution is a technology change and at the same time it is energy.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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We were under colonial rule then.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I welcome that.
Finally, I wish to say to Mr. Morris that I have read his statement and how one in ten households in Germany have already installed a plug-in solar system. The representatives of ESBN have told us that the registration system is being built. This morning, a Department official told us that its working group will submit a report in September. Can Mr. Morris tell us what he sees is the biggest hold-back from an Irish perspective? Does he think our current approach is correct? What would he advise the Department to do to roll out registration quicker?
Mr. Craig Morris:
To be quite honest, the German registration system does not work. Fewer than half of the systems are registered. I can imagine a world in which we do not register these systems but there are benefits, which we have partly discussed here. One of them is simply being taken seriously by the grid operators, which is a good thing because then we do not have to fight them and they can try to integrate us in what they are doing. To also be quite frank, however, and I am speaking of the German DSOs and not the Irish ones, we have found that the DSOs are actually not that interested in us. They want the registrations but they are not fighting to get us involved in their pricing schemes. We are fighting for that. To a certain extent, maybe they do not know enough and that is one of the things that we have discovered. At least in Germany, the DSOs do not understand what is going on, on their own grids, enough to give us the price signals we need, at this point.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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My last question on safety concerns is for Ms Cody. I welcome the ESBN's submission to the consultation in 2024. ESBN was honest and straight, and did not completely mislead the Department like other people did, in my opinion. Why are we of the opinion that Irish people are not able to listen to the direct instruction to not put five of them into a single extension lead but that German people are? I ask that because that is one of the concerns that has been raised multiple times.
Ms Bevin Cody:
In the context of the working group, that is not an assumption that has been made but it is a consideration around what level of risk do you put onto a customer, versus onto a systematic element. Obviously what we have at the moment is a system that ensures that the customer has the right system before he or she installs solar. On moving to a system whereby a customer can just go into Lidl, there is huge drive in the working group to make this possible and as simple as possible for customers but decisions need to be made-----
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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For safety.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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Irish people are equally able to abide by rules, is what we are saying. Brilliant and thank you.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I wish to ask a couple of questions from my perspective. Mr. Morris, in his opening statement, mentioned that with plug-in batteries there seems to be more activity in Australia and the US "than in Germany". What does he ascribe that to? I would have thought that adding plug-in batteries was an obvious next step for Germany. Why has the adoption of that technology not progressed in Germany?
Mr. Craig Morris:
Basically, Australia has focused on residential solar and now they have expanded it to batteries. There is also a subsidy scheme for that so it costs them money. That is something they are also discussing. The United States is not a single electricity market, at least not at a residential level.
In certain jurisdictions there are certain price incentives for that. Why we do not have it in Germany is probably a discussion for a different day. The important thing is we have succeeded this month in getting Germany to allow a more simplified smart meter. We do not have it yet but Germany has announced it will allow it. Some smart meter experts in Ireland will probably agree that Germany has the most complicated smart meters in the EU. This is for security reasons as the authorities did not want them to be hacked and wanted the grid operators, as mentioned before, to be able to control the charging of your car and maybe the operation of your heat pump. They tried to maybe do a little too much. A lot of households are never going to have EV charging at home. If you live in a building like mine, you cannot even park a car close to you. As such, a more simplified smart meter is probably the way to go, and that is apparently what Germany is finally going to start thinking about.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Morris mentioned the US incentives. That is subsidy of batteries, effectively, in parts of the US. Financial support for batteries is what has brought the US on.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I see. It sounds like the registration requirement is really about the ESB knowing who is on the grid and a little bit of concern about power in circumstances when the ESB thinks the grid is off but power is coming back through from microgeneration and putting its workers in potential danger. Is that really what it is about?
Mr. Alan Rossiter:
It is primarily visibility on the grid so we can see the aggregate effect of this and bring forward any investment that is needed in order to keep the other distribution-connected customers within the quality of supply standards we are mandated to keep them within. That is first and foremost. There is a robust European standard, with anti-islanding protection, that keeps our workers safe. Also, in the event that these devices are connected to a plug top, when you unplug the plug it is the same piece that will stop the pins of the plug from becoming live. They are all the areas to look at.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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I see. Just on Deputy Cronin's comments, we might seat Mr. Tarrant over here the next time he is here, on a once-off basis, to allow him to ask a few questions as he has been here so often.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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If Mr. Reid had a magic wand and there was one change he could make to the Irish grid - because a lot of it seems to be about the grid from his perspective - what would that be?
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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You have the speaking time.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Conservative in what way?
Mr. Gerard Reid:
Conservative in how they manage the grid and what they do and do not do. The level of curtailment in the Irish grid is off the charts. We are spending €1 million a day by not using electricity that is produced. This is absolutely crazy. It is just bad management. I will give a more extreme example of it. How does Ryanair make its money? It does so by making sure the bloody planes are full. It is called capacity utilisation. The capacity utilisation on the Irish distribution grid is poor. It is not just the Irish grid, by the way. The way grids in general are managed is from an old world, and we have to change that. If I am asked how to do this, I would say we should change the regulatory environment. If I am asked how I would do that, I would say to ESB Networks that its job, rather than building out grid, which I know we need to do, is to increase the capacity utilisation of that grid from 30% and 35% and incentivise it in a completely different way to manage the grid.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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EirGrid.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Some members have indicated they want to come back in. Each of them will have two minutes.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I want to ask the ESB about something mentioned in the opening statement. It is possible - I raised this with the Department this morning as well - to get an electrician in and get them to oversee plug-in solar installation in a home. That is legal. Am I correct?
Mr. Alan Rossiter:
It is subject to the device. It is possible to get in someone to put in inverters and battery systems that are approved for sale on the Irish market. I cannot speak for all devices but any devices that are approved for sale on the Irish market may be connected up by a registered electrical contractor. We operate the inform and fit for the microgeneration, which is a really straightforward process for these. They go to our website and within a few days they get the response.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Are there products on the market at the moment?
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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There is a real opportunity here once the UK, which is ahead of us on all this, comes up with its standard and has products adhering to that standard. People will be able to bring plug-in solar from the UK and plug it in once they get an electrician to oversee it. That will be possible, legal and safe.
Ms Bevin Cody:
I am not an expert on the wiring rules but the current wiring rules say you cannot have a generation set connected to a plug top. The installation of a conventional rooftop microgeneration system is considered a restricted electrical work and is, therefore, subject to an installer signing off on it. However, because plug-in solar devices are a consumer product and not considered a restricted electrical work, the current regulations and structures do not allow for that. As such, there are some complexities in relation to that.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I just want to go back to the-----
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Very briefly.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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This is really important, though, because the ESB said the following of plug-in: "This process is currently available to customers wishing to install plug-in solar and storage devices but requires sign off by a registered electrical contractor." I am finding this is like trying to get through treacle. We need people to be able to access the benefits of solar. If it is possible to do, and people are willing to get an electrician and can afford to do that, we should be facilitating that. I am looking for a clear answer. Is it possible?
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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That would be the electrician.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Okay, so it is possible. They will be able to get something from the UK that will have that standard and they will be able to use that.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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You will not be plugging it in.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Morris has his hand up.
Mr. Craig Morris:
I will speak from the German perspective. Having an electrician involved for this will probably double the cost of the system. The electrician will cost as much as the kit. Germany does not have the capacity for this. The electricians are not sitting around waiting for tens of thousands of households and they are not interested in these small jobs anyway. We should not be trying to open up this avenue.
If I can mention one more thing about safety, Ireland could just go ahead and ban more than one unit per household. It is also not allowed in Germany. Just limit it to one. It can theoretically be done safely if you know what you are doing but these are do-it-yourself products, so just limit it to one unit and do not allow terminal strips to be used either. This is the German approach. I do not think Germans are that much different than the Irish, though the Irish are friendlier.
In both countries people do not want to burn down their homes, so we can rely on that. As I mentioned in my introduction, maybe we could just have some kind of an information campaign around this roll-out. We could get one-stop shops and little societal organisations involved to raise awareness about these issues.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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There is a risk because if this happens in the UK - these are freely available in Northern Ireland - we are going to see people bringing them down to the South. They will be plugging them in, and there will not be any awareness. If we are too far behind what the UK is doing, there is a real risk with it.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I do not have one at home in my house either. Mr. Morris's referred in his opening statement to the systems. How are they enforcing the one-per-household rule in Germany?
Mr. Craig Morris:
They are not enforcing it at all. They are not enforcing registration. They are not enforcing anything. These systems are too small. There are actually penalties for this kind of thing, and they are based on the size of the system. I think the penalty for an 800 W unit is something like €10. They are not policing this.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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Should we continue to look at 800 W systems or should we be looking at 1 KW systems?
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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What is Mr. Morris's reasoning behind that?
Mr. Craig Morris:
There are ways of going above 800 W. We take the safety issues seriously. I am not trying to maximise the system size under any conditions. The last thing we need is five homes burning down because of our technology. In studies and in the field in Germany, 800 W has proven to be a safe level. We are getting pushed by various groups to go up above that. There are ways of doing that. There are temperature monitors that can be installed, but people should just start off with 800 W and go from there.
Barry Heneghan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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I appreciate that as it is good to get clarity on it. I have been pushing for this for a while and have received a lot of push back. Critics say that a plug-in solar system can fall off a balcony but so can a flowerpot, and it will not save people €260 a year off their electricity bill. I have one more question, if anyone can answer it. What Deputy Whitmore said is true. It is the same thing with the native bee Bill. If we are going to try to stop people importing bees in Ireland, if someone brings bees into the North, a bee is not going respect an open border. Neither will people buying plug-in solar systems. How do we regulate, keep in touch with the UK and allow people to do this as safely as possible? Is there anything else the witnesses want to add?
Mr. Nicholas Tarrant:
We are members of the Electricity Networks Association in Britain. All of the DSOs are part of that, including our sister company, NIE Networks. We are working closely. As I said in our opening statement, we are trying to work in tandem by getting the lessons from Germany as they are being applied in the UK. We are going to work hand in glove to try to make sure that when the regulations change in Britain, we are as closely aligned as possible with that.
Réada Cronin (Kildare North, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Morris mentioned that the apartment behind him has all of these blue things that are solar panels. I know from living on the Continent as well that building owners can restrict the colour of canopies or sunshades that householders can have. Is that a social apartment behind him? Does everyone in the apartment have to go to the same company, his company, to get those panels? He also mentioned that there is no registration system in Germany, but how did they manage to get everybody in those apartment blocks to use the same company?
Mr. Craig Morris:
Most of the systems installed in Germany are in the back yards of single-family homes because nobody can tell them not to do it. This system is a building-wide project, and that is what we are seeing is necessary in these high-rise buildings. I do not believe that this is social housing. It is different in Germany. We do not really have proper social housing blocks. We give individual paybacks to people, regardless of where they live. This is a good way of addressing it. You can have building-wide projects. You can get a unified look. Yes, in Germany, the property owner can say what colour the panels can be. They cannot block you from doing it completely, but they can tell you to get a full black model, for instance, or they can roughly tell you the size that you should buy. There are certain rights that they have in order to have a unified look.
Naoise Ó Muirí (Dublin Bay North, Fine Gael)
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We have come to the end of our second session. I thank all the witnesses for coming in. Mr. Morris is online, and I thank him for joining us today. We will put all of the witnesses' opening statements on our website for publication. We will now adjourn the meeting.