John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I will read a note on privilege and housekeeping matters before we begin. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that would be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction I may make. Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that, to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where the Parliament has chosen to sit. In this regard, I ask any members participating via Microsoft Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex if they wish to contribute to the meeting. I remind all those in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode.

Today's meeting concerns renewed discussion and review of pre-budget submissions. At the outset, I thank the witnesses for making submissions and attending today's meeting to discuss the details of those submissions. As a committee, we look forward to engaging on the submissions, which address key issues including poverty and the cost of disability. With that in mind, I welcome to today's meeting, from County Tipperary Chamber, Ms. Michelle Aylward, chief executive, and Mr. Ian Talbot, CEO of Chambers Ireland. From Irish Rural Link, I welcome Mr. Briain Smyth, CEO, Ms Louise Lennon, policy and communications officer, and Mr. James Claffey, deputy CEO and manager of CAP Network Ireland. I also welcome the cathaoirleach of Kilcormac Development Association, Mr. John Leahy. From the Wheel, I welcome Mr. Dónall Geoghegan, director of policy and advocacy, and Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot, policy and campaigns manager.

I invite Ms Michelle Aylward from County Tipperary Chamber to make her opening remarks.

Ms Michelle Aylward:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for inviting County Tipperary Chamber to present its budget submission for 2027. Investing in Tipperary is to invest in rural counties. Such investment is not a mere favour; it is investment in the Irish economy. Tipperary proves that rural counties can perform just as well as our cities.

I will take the committee through some of the numbers to date. Tipperary has 182,900 people living there, 76,031 of whom have jobs within the county. On average, people in Tipperary earn €30,654 per year. That places us fifth among the Twenty-six Counties. Last year, people in Tipperary spent €1.4 billion on cards, and the county paid €747 million in tax in 2024. Companies backed by the State agencies employ 12,487 people. Businesses in Tipperary sell €1.9 billion worth of goods abroad. We spend €121 million on research, most of which is in the areas of medical devices and food. These numbers prove Tipperary pulls its weight for Ireland. They show that when the Government invests in Ireland, it invests in Tipperary.

The population of Tipperary grew by 1.7% in the past year. We have all kinds of businesses based in the county, ranging from medical devices, food and chemicals to engineering and construction. Nearly half the jobs in our agency-backed companies are in medical devices and food. These are not just local jobs; they are part of Ireland's supply chain and support other jobs throughout the county too. This is why investing in places like Tipperary pays off more than once. It helps us to grow Irish-owned businesses, takes pressure off the cities and gives the whole country room to grow. Better roads, healthier towns and stronger small businesses would also help boost exports, tax revenue, jobs, spending and resilience right across the southern region of the country.

County Tipperary Chamber has four asks for the budget. The first is delivery. We want to hold the Government to account on the 30 time-bound actions in the accelerating infrastructure programme. We will track every deadline. Funding announcements are not good enough. We want to see projects delivered and built.

The second ask is better roads. The N24 and the N62 Thurles bypass projects need to move forward. The N24 connects Tipperary to Waterford and Limerick. This road carries our freight, exports and commuters. The Thurles bypass would link the M7 and M8 and take the heavy traffic out of our town centres. This would open our towns for redevelopment. Budget 2027 needs to set clear dates and fund the design work for both roads.

Our third ask relates to our towns. We are all aware of empty shops. They are a real problem. The vacancy rate of shops is 18.1% in Clonmel, 14.7% in Thurles and 14.4% in Nenagh. We need continued town centre first funding, easier access to the over-the-shop living grants and investment in our streets, transport and services.

The fourth ask is a lower cost of doing business. Energy, employer PRSI, insurance, rates and red tape are making it harder to hire and invest. We want real cost relief, faster insurance reform, flexibility on rates and practical training support. The National Training Fund has a surplus of almost €2 billion. It should be spent on training for our employees rather than capital projects. We want a voucher scheme, using that surplus, to help employers and staff gain the skills they need for the future, especially in the areas of digital, AI, green and construction skills.

Tipperary has shown that rural Ireland can deliver high incomes, strong exports, new ideas and real tax revenue. The right investment will let us do even more. A stronger Tipperary means stronger supply chains, a stronger region and a stronger Ireland. We are asking this committee to back all four of these priorities in budget 2027. I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for their time. I am happy to take any questions.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Aylward. I incorrectly said at the start that we are discussing social protection measures and policy. That was last week's discussion, however. I apologise. I was thinking back. Today's discussion is on rural development and policy. I hope all the witnesses are not afraid to be answering social protection queries. I knew there was a look. I thank Ms Aylward. She gave a great rendition of Tipperary. We will be asking questions in a minute. Next is Mr. Smyth from Irish Rural Link.

Mr. Briain Smyth:

On behalf of Irish Rural Link, I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the opportunity to present our pre-budget submission. We welcome the committee's continued focus on ensuring that budget 2027 responds to the realities facing people on low incomes, particularly those living in rural Ireland. A copy of the full submission was shared with the committee in advance. Irish Rural Link represents 600 community groups in disadvantaged and marginalised areas. We work to highlight the challenges facing those communities and advocate for inclusive, sustainable rural development.

In the current context, while inflation has eased somewhat over the past year, the cost of living remains the defining challenge for many households. Rural communities continue to experience the impact of persistently high prices for essential goods and services, with transport, energy and access to basic services placing significant pressure on already stretched household budgets. The recent conflict in the Middle East has once again demonstrated just how vulnerable Ireland remains to external geopolitical events. Rising oil prices have fed through into higher diesel and petrol costs. Although there has been a slight easing in recent weeks, uncertainty remains. Low-income households in rural areas are particularly exposed because they have little choice but to rely on private transport. Unlike those in urban centres, many rural residents simply do not have any access to viable public transport alternatives.

This reinforces the urgent need to accelerate our transition away from fossil fuels and reduce dependence on private cars. However, this transition cannot happen through ambition alone. It requires sustained investment in accessible, affordable and reliable public transport. In particular, Local Link has demonstrated its ability to respond quickly to local transport needs. It should be adequately resourced to expand services, especially in communities where Bus Éireann routes have been withdrawn or commercialised. We continue to hear from our members about the devastating impact closures of local services are having on low-income households. In one small village in County Westmeath, both the local medical centre and village shop have closed. The village also hosts a self-catering IPAS accommodation centre, yet there is no regular public transport. Residents are forced to walk long distances or pay for private taxis, costs which consume a significant proportion of their already limited weekly allowance.

Similarly, in the village of Carracastle, County Mayo, the commercialisation of the Bus Éireann route resulted in the village being bypassed altogether. Older people and people with disabilities have effectively lost their public transport connection. Many now face expensive taxi fares simply to attend medical appointments, shop for groceries or connect with national bus and rail services. These are not isolated examples; they reflect a wider pattern of transport exclusion that is increasing poverty and social isolation in rural Ireland.

The latest minimum essential standard of living, MESL, research from the Vincentian Research Centre for 2026 highlights the scale of this challenge. It shows that low-income households in rural areas experience significantly deeper income inadequacy than their urban counterparts, even where both parents are working full time on the minimum wage. The primary drivers are unavoidable higher transport and household energy costs. This evidence confirms what communities have been telling us for years – where a person lives continues to determine both their cost of living and standard of living.

We ask in our pre-budget submission for a minimum increase of €15 per week in weekly core social welfare rates, in line with the MESL research. However, this also needs targeted increases to low-income households. As mentioned, increases in social welfare payments, and indeed in the minimum wage, do not provide an adequate income or adequate standard of living for rural households and that is why we are calling for the delivery of the largest investment ever made in rural transport by elevating TFI Local Link to a standing co-equal with Bus Éireann as a national public transport provider, with a national mandate and multi-annual current and capital funding to expand services and provide replacement services where commercial routes are withdrawn.

On the pressures on the community and voluntary sector, the impact of rising fuel prices extends beyond households. Community and voluntary organisations delivering essential services across rural and urban Ireland have also experienced significant increases in operating costs. Services such as meals on wheels, home care, community transport and volunteer-led supports have all seen fuel costs rise sharply, while many volunteers are finding it increasingly difficult to afford the journeys needed to keep these essential services running. Yet, unlike other sectors, including haulage and agriculture, the community and voluntary sector was not included in measures to offset these increased fuel costs. This was particularly disappointing given that the community and voluntary pillar is recognised as a social partner. No meaningful dialogue took place with our sector before these supports were introduced, despite the critical role community organisations play in supporting vulnerable people every day. This underlines the need to strengthen Ireland's social dialogue. We have proposed the establishment of a renewed and genuinely inclusive system of social dialogue where all pillars are represented equally. Effective policymaking cannot be achieved through discussions with employers and business alone while excluding those who represent the communities and individuals most affected by poverty, inequality and social exclusion. Those experiencing disadvantage must have a voice at the table when decisions are being made.

I will summarise our key budget asks. The first is that we rural-proof budget 2027, with a strong focus on regional equity. In line with the MESL results for 2026, we call for an increase in core social welfare payments of a minimum of €15 per week. This is to help progress restoring the real value of the core social protection rate and go towards improving income adequacy. The Government must begin to invest in social protection and put measures in place to address consistent poverty, deprivation and at-risk-of-poverty rates. It must benchmark rates against the MESL rather than the CPI for budgetary benchmarking; invest in public services and rural infrastructure, including transport, digital inclusion, and health and social care; and deliver the largest investment ever made in rural transport by elevating TFI Local Link to a standing co-equal with Bus Éireann as a national public transport provider, with a national mandate and multi-annual current and capital funding to expand services and provide replacement services where commercial routes are withdrawn.

The Government must expand and improve rural transport services, with demand-led models and sustainable vehicle options; secure cross-party support to reinstate the social dialogue structures dismantled after the 2008 financial crash, restore the community and voluntary sector as a full pillar and resource its participation; increase funding and deliver core, multi-annual funding to the community and voluntary sector to help alleviate operational costs and make the sector more sustainable; and introduce allowances for volunteers using personal vehicles that are essential for services like community car schemes, meals on wheels, etc. We call for the allocation of a €10 million capital and resilience package to the national meals on wheels network in budget 2027. This is in addition to increased core funding to upgrade kitchens, add renewable energy to meals on wheels premises and to energy-proof services against fuel disruptions, storms and energy price shocks, and roll out a nationwide standardised software dashboard across the meals on wheels network to support referrals, scheduling, routing, reporting and integration with the HSE. It should also provide additional administrative roles and resources across the network so that co-ordinators and volunteers can focus on delivering the service.

The Government must invest in community services and create paid employment in the local area. This not only supports community employment scheme and Tús participants to gain employment using the skills they have developed but also ensures the future sustainability of these valuable services.

Budget 2027 provides an opportunity to recognise the additional costs faced by rural households, invest in rural services and public transport, strengthen community supports, and ensure that those who represent the most vulnerable are included in shaping the policies that affect their lives. We look forward to discussing our recommendations with the committee. We thank members for their time and consideration.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Many thanks to Mr. Smyth for his presentation. I now invite Mr. Leahy to make his opening remarks on behalf of the Kilcormac Development Association.

Mr. John Leahy:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members. It is a great privilege and an honour to be here today to advocate respectfully for community groups and organisations nationally. I will start with our recommendations before developing them within the statement.

First, we are looking for a multi-annual community service sustainability fund. Second, we are looking for community services programme funding that reflects the real cost of employing people. Third, we call for the recognition of meals on wheels as being of essential national importance and for it to be funded accordingly. We also call for a community gain fund as part of a just transition.

I have been the chairman of the Kilcormac Development Association since 2011. Our community group was established over 40 years ago. It is slightly different from the average community group. We are very fortunate that we are funded by the community services programme so we have employees who are paid through Pobal. We also have a full-time community employment, CE, supervisor, who manages 28 CE participants. We are a busy social enterprise. I know that does not reflect every small rural village, but we do provide services in about 12 areas outside of our own remit. I will develop that as I go along.

When I look back over the last 40 years and where we started, the beginnings were very humble. A meeting room and a hall were all that were needed in a community. We have become service providers. We have nearly become an arm of the State in some respects. We produce 400 meals on a weekly basis, or 1,600 meals a month. What we produce in one month is the equivalent of feeding the average small town. We support older people to live independently. We manage community facilities. What I mean by that is that it is not just the bricks and mortar, but it has happened in our development association because we have staff. There is a big debate about whether volunteers are dying off. Volunteers are not necessarily dying off. If we look at what a volunteer had to do 40 years ago, it was just to come in once a month and manage a service. Now we are managing what I believe are State-led projects in terms of meals and wheels. There is also the development of the town and village renewal scheme, playgrounds and everything that goes with that. It is not that volunteers are dying off; rather, everything has become more complex and there is so much push-back on communities now. Do not get me wrong: communities are willing to take that on. We have employment opportunities in social enterprises, which I will delve into in a few minutes, and the CE scheme, which I mentioned has 28 participants. They do not just cover Kilcormac, they cover probably a 10 mile to 15 mile radius around Kilcormac. Anyone who knows a rural area will understand that 10 miles or 15 miles covers three or four different parishes. We also deliver climate action projects.

The point I am making is that, in fairness to the Government over the past 20 years, there has never been as much capital funding coming through. I see that. For my sins, I have been a local politician since 2009. I have been 17 years in the chamber. I have never witnessed the level of capital funding that is coming down. That is great. What we have done, however, is create a situation whereby we have chased all this money and put the capital projects in place, but the big sticking point is the operational costs. It is great to have all these projects, but we are chasing the money and now we are left in a situation whereby we are just running dry every year. I would nearly prefer to see the reverse, that is, if there was a scenario of not enough capital and more operational funding.

I use meals on wheels as a typical example. If the Government said it would give me €100,000 for a capital project for meals on wheels, I would gladly take it, but we would much prefer €100,000 over ten years so that we could operate the service to the current level. Members should bear that in mind. My first ask is for a multi-annual community service sustainability fund rather than a capital fund. I am not saying we do not want capital - members should not get me wrong - but we are getting to that point.

Deputy Aird knows Kilcormac and the hinterland and what I say when I mention the just transition. That is no disrespect to any other member; perhaps they are all fully briefed on it. Kilcormac is the epicentre of decarbonisation. We had the greatest number of people employed 3 km from Kilcormac. We embrace the just transition, but we are very fortunate that we had a full-time employee who was capable of drawing down the grants and could spend the time and make the effort. If it had been left to a voluntary board, which we are, we would never have experienced the level of funding we received.

Going back to the point I was making about social enterprise, we had to change the model of how we fund the organisation. We have created enterprise hubs. Within those, we get a small ground rent off a number of small businesses. They have now come in and embraced the facilities we have through the just transition funding and Government support. We get small pockets of money that help us to keep operating.

What we have also done through the just transition shows where the model is absolutely perfect. We received €300,000 from the European just transition fund. That €300,000 put solar panels on the roof in the community centre. Roughly €35,000 is what energy costs to run our meals on wheels and the centre. It opens at 7.30 a.m. and closes at 10.30 p.m. and we have two caretakers on shift. We are going to reduce our costs by €15,000 or €20,000. We are going to pocket that money, put it into a fund and help the organisation grow further projects.

The committee can see how we have utilised the fund, but we have very fortunate to have the staff to do that. I am advocating on behalf of groups that do not have staff to tap into this. Someone might say that there is €1 million in the EU just transition fund, but no voluntary group will take that on for the level of detail involved. It is right that there is that level of detail, as you need transparency on it. It is about having the operational staff for it.

When a project is added, be it a playground, town and village renewal or the town park, everything comes with governance, insurance and maintenance. It is not just a matter of taking on the project and saying it is great. In the political world, we have what I would call the "chase the house" syndrome. Here, we have "chase the grant" syndrome. At board level, we are now saying "Stop". We have to look at the bigger picture. We know we can get the funding, but how do we sustain it going forward? There is a whole model needed for that.

My colleagues here have articulated the view on meals on wheels very well. We need to recognise it as an arm of the Government in some respects. I do not need to tell members what meals on wheels does for people in terms of their health and rural isolation. To use a typical example, we are very fortunate to secure money from the Government. We bought a car. We thought this was great. We made a big deal about it in the newspapers and the whole lot. Now, we are looking at it and crying into our hands asking ourselves how we are going to run it, maintain it and put a driver into it. When you create the animal, you have to have the operational funding to back it up.

When I look at the other asks and the community services programme, CSP, we are very privileged to have funding from Pobal to maintain economic and social growth in our area. Thankfully and rightfully, the minimum wage has increased over the last number of years, but we are still getting the CSP money at the same rate we have always got it. As a voluntary organisation, we have to make up the additional contribution to pay the staff. If we have five staff and have to cut services, our priority naturally enough is the staff. That is to be straight about it. We have staff, we are loyal to them, they are in the area, and everything else that goes with it. We need a situation whereby that gap is bridged and more money is made available. We are not looking to make a profit. We are just looking to sustain services without having to dig deep into our pockets. We can do fundraisers, but that is not sustainable going forward. In our organisation, it is nearly at a point where we just need to sustain what we have. We are at a brilliant level. Every community that has reacted over the last ten years has brought a level of improvement to its area, but it is a question of sustaining that now. That is an important factor for us.

This is not a begging bowl situation. Huge support has been given by this and previous Governments. We just need to be strategic partners in this. We need to look at the operational side of it and ask how we can sustain groups like this. I am not being parochial here when I mention Kilcormac. I could mention another six or seven communities that we are servicing within this. We are servicing probably a third of the county of Offaly. If that is replicated across the country and you are able to support, say, 15, 20, 30 or 100 - whatever the number is - you are actually going to cover nearly 50% of the country very quickly.

The last point I will make is on renewable energy. Deputy Aird would know the area I am from. We have gone from brown to green very quickly and we are very supportive of that in terms of wind energy. It may be for a different forum, but we should be utilising the community gain fund more for services like those I am talking about. Rather than there being a call for community gain funding, with €1,500 going here and €1,500 going there, everyone getting a set of jerseys and a scoreboard and everyone being happy, we need to look at it strategically in terms of how we pull the money back in and have a more infrastructural fund in the county. We can work the services I am talking about outwards from there.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Leahy. Last but not least, I call Mr. Dónall Geoghegan from The Wheel to make his opening remarks.

Mr. Dónall Geoghegan:

I thank Cathaoirleach for the invitation to address the committee today. The Wheel is Ireland’s national association of charities, community groups and social enterprises. We have a membership of over 2,700 organisations right around the country and in every parish in the land. They include some of Ireland’s best-known national charities, international development organisations and small community groups. We are a representative voice for our members but we also provide practical supports to them, such as training and advice, to help them to be the best they can be.

The sector comprises over 35,000 organisations, employs over 280,000 staff and, critically, involves over 1.1 million volunteers. The committee members know, as public representatives who are active in their communities, that the sector is not an optional extra. It is essential public infrastructure. However, there is a real problem here. The sector can sometimes be taken for granted by the State and not funded or supported sufficiently to continue to meet the needs of many people. This is happening at a time when the demand for the services and supports provided by the sector is growing, not least because of the increases in the cost of living for the most vulnerable members of our society.

There are lots of key challenges mentioned in our budget submission, but I will outline just two right now that simply must be addressed in budget 2027. First, there is a gap that has been widening for many years between the funding that organisations receive and the real cost of providing the service. This gap results from a range of factors, such as rising energy costs, rising insurance premiums, high rent and general inflation. Funding has not kept pace with rising costs. Our colleagues in Irish Rural Link have addressed some of the issues that are pertinent to that.

I will illustrate this issue with a concrete example that arose just this year. Our sector welcomes the introduction of auto-enrolment for pensions to increase pension provision, and I know that this committee strongly backed its introduction. However, many community and voluntary organisations did not receive any additional funding to cover the cost of that scheme. They were left having to absorb this cost from their own funds, potentially leading to cuts in services. There is an extra cost this year of 1.5% for those staff and it is going to increase in the years to come. It is different for other sectors. It simply does not arise for statutory bodies that provide public services, as they have established pension provisions. For the private sector, businesses can either absorb the cost as part of their profit margins or they can increase the costs of their products or services. The community sector simply cannot do that. There is no profit margin and there is no passing on the cost to users. This is only one pressure point. In our recent survey on the issues faced by the sector, almost a quarter of respondents were unsure if they would have enough funding to provide their existing supports or services next year.

Second, the way funding is provided on an annual basis as opposed to multi-annually is a significant issue in the sector. Only a quarter of respondents to our survey received multi-annual statutory funding. This means that most organisations are unable to plan for the medium or long term and more than one third of our members report that they are unable to recruit and retain staff. We are just asking that the State follow the good practice already established and employed by some Departments. For example, the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht has been providing multi-annual funding through its scheme to support national organisations, the so-called SSNO scheme, for nearly 20 years. The Departments of foreign affairs, justice and the environment have also adopted this approach to many of their funding schemes. Multi-annual funding should become the norm rather than the exception. This would deal with some of the issues raised by our colleagues in the Kilcormac Development Association. Organisations would be able to plan ahead, knowing exactly what they are to get in the years to come.

It should also take into account the fact that many organisations are struggling with a significant compliance and reporting load that is not specifically funded by grants or contracts. Let us be straight on this: we advocated strongly for regulation and we agree with regulation. It is great that the Charities Regulator is in place and doing a fine job, but there is a cost of compliance and it must be dealt with.

There are a number of other issues that we highlighted in our budget submission, which the committee has, and we are happy to discuss these further with the members. We also included in the budget submission, which can be seen in the online version, links to our member organisations and what they have put forward. Some of the issues that I have not addressed have been put forward by our colleagues in Irish Rural Link and Kilcormac Development Association, and we are strongly behind them. These include the increases in social welfare rates proposed by Irish Rural Link and the emphasis on volunteering and innovation in the sector that has been outlined by Kilcormac Development Association.

As a country, we simply must invest heavily in our communities. We must invest in Ireland's social fabric. We cannot take it for granted. We are asking that the Government uses budget 2027 to put community solidly at the heart of our democracy.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank everyone for their contributions. Each member will get seven minutes for questions and answers.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming here today. We have heard all about the great work that has been done. It behoves us to ensure that after the meeting we are more enlightened to the fact of making recommendations on the witnesses' behalf to ensure that some, if not all, of their requests are met in the upcoming budget.

I am going start with the sequence in which the opening statements were delivered to us and ask questions related to County Tipperary to Ms Aylward and Mr. Talbot. I represent Laois. We all represent different counties, but Tipperary's asks are no different from most of what we have in our counties and the frustrations due to the timelines for delivery on different projects are the same everywhere. Ms Aylward outlined significant economic strengths in Tipperary. What evidence does County Tipperary Chamber have that the specific investments it is looking for would deliver a greater return compared to the demands for infrastructure funding for other parts of the country?

Ms Michelle Aylward:

When we invest in infrastructure that will then trickle down into building, development, properties and then more investments within the local economy. As I said, it will then take the strain off our cities. Tipperary has been calling hugely for the upgrade to the N24 because not only does it open up Tipperary, it also opens up the whole south-east region. That development would also reduce road deaths and would have a huge impact for us.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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My second question is about an issue that affects every one of us throughout the country. Ms Aylward highlighted the need for major road projects, such as the N24 and the N62 bypass of Thurles. Given the scale of the infrastructure pressures nationally, how should the Government prioritise these projects and what measurable income benefits would they deliver?

Ms Michelle Aylward:

It is going to open up town regenerations for us to make sure that our town centres are not failing as they are at the moment. That in itself will be able to pay for it. We recently saw that Tipperary generated over €775 million in tax receipts and is therefore carrying itself. The business community in Tipperary feels that this money should be reinvested back into Tipperary.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The question that I asked was about the comparison between us in Laois - we have a population of 32,000 and growing - and, for example, the Portlaoise northern orbital route. How does Ms Aylward think the Government should prioritise projects?

Ms Michelle Aylward:

If we look at it in terms of what it has raised in tax receipts, Tipperary is covering its costs. We would like to see that money reimbursed back into Tipperary.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is how Ms Aylward thinks it should be prioritised. County Tipperary Chamber is seeking lower business costs through measures such as rates relief, insurance reform and training supports. What commitments should businesses make in return to ensure that these supports translate into increased investment, job creation and regional development?

Ms Michelle Aylward:

If we look at the National Training Fund, County Tipperary Chamber runs its own Skillnet and it has been very successful. We train a number of different member companies, so it is not industry specific. We have a demand for skills such as customer service skills right up to AI training skills. That money is taken from the National Training Fund, which has slowed down over the past couple of years. Given there is a surplus of €2 million, that money should be spent on training and not on capital projects.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is fair enough. I am going to ask Mr. Smyth a question about Irish Rural Link. It is calling for a €15 per week increase in social welfare payments. How much would that cost the Exchequer and how should it be funded?

Mr. Briain Smyth:

The figures are covered in the MESL document and we are happy to share that directly with the committee. I just do not have them to hand at the moment.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is fine. He can send them onto us.

Mr. Briain Smyth:

Certainly. Regarding the funding aspect, it is more important that it is focused on the lower income households and those most at risk from rural poverty. We are seeking a focused increase as opposed to an across-the-board increase. It is important to understand that there is a divide between rural and urban households in that sense.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I agree with Mr. Smyth.

Mr. Briain Smyth:

There are areas in the country where there are more deprived sections of society that we think deserve that increase.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Irish Rural Link proposes that TFI Local Link get a co-equal standing as a national transport provider. What evidence does it have that this would deliver better value for money than expanding existing Bus Éireann or Link Link services?

Mr. Briain Smyth:

We have seen a significant reduction in services in some areas of the country with Bus Éireann, in particular, removing services. It is important to understand that there has not been a significant increase in the expansion of the core services in the TFI Local Link network since it was introduced. Having spoken to a significant number of transport service managers in TFI throughout the country, there is a universal call that they want to have the ability to replace and enhance the Bus Éireann services that have been removed. Some of the commercial routes are under particular pressures. In the Carracastle area in County Mayo, which is on the N5, Bus Éireann removed the commercial route due to punctuality concerns. That went from a service where there were six buses a day down to one a week. We need to see areas like that significantly bolstered.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Irish Rural Link would like to see somebody taking up the slack there. Irish Rural Link argues that rural households face higher costs. How should the Government target supports to those most in need without providing additional payments to higher income households?

Mr. Briain Smyth:

That is a very good question that requires an across-the-board answer to try to understand the rural divide. There is no point in saying that there are higher income households in rural areas as well, but there is a clear delineation of the lower income rural households that have been identified by different services and Departments, including the Department of Social Protection. These are households that are at risk from poverty and are receiving existing payments. It is just about trying to enhance those payments to those most at risk. It is not an across-the-board increase. It is to try to look at things like fuel poverty, in particular, and the increased cost of transport for those in those diverse rural areas where there are not the same services that we receive in urban areas.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Irish Rural Link is seeking significant additional funding, and rightly so, for community organisations, such as Meals on Wheels and volunteer supports. What accountability measures should accompany these investments to ensure that taxpayers receive value for money?

Mr. Briain Smyth:

Funding for Meals on Wheels is something that we are certainly calling for because it is something we came across acutely over the last number of months, particularly with the fuel crisis that has been going on. Ensuring accountability is quite simple. These are payments that are already been made to help with energy costs. If we are able to upgrade things like kitchens and put solar panels on community kitchens, for instance, to enable them to change from gas cooking to induction hobs-----

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Did Irish Rural Link get those examples from Mr. Leahy?

Mr. Briain Smyth:

Yes.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Irish Rural Link has called for the benchmarking of social welfare rates against the minimum essential standard of living rather than inflation.

Would that commit future Governments to spending increases regardless of the State's financial position? Is that sustainable if there is an economic downturn? Are there reasons for that?

Mr. Brian Smyth:

What we have generally seen in past economic downturns is that all bets are off the table to a degree. While there is a surplus available at the moment, we want to make sure the equity within that is shared equally and focused on the most at-risk households in the country. It is important to understand that while there is a more effective way of creating the household spending, we need to have the basket of goods targeted towards the lower households in that sense. In the MESL there is a basket of goods for that, which does reflect the way it is indexed against the CPI. There is not necessarily a full direct correlation there but there is a correlation between the MESL and the CPI that needs to be taken into account. At the moment, where there is availability to give that uplift and to give that increase, I think it should be focused on the rural households in particular. In the fullness of time when we may have downturns, it does behove any Government then to take a look at the full packages available to them.

Sarah O'Reilly (Aontú)
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I welcome the witnesses. I have a different perspective as a first-time Senator listening to all these people coming in giving evidence. I am coming at it as a person who was an employer, who employed people, and who has seen a lot of small businesses on our streets. I come from a county where there is a lot of failure on our main streets. Lately I hear a lot up here about how brilliant social enterprises are. Yes they are, but I have a view that I want the witnesses to try to change my mind on. Pubs are closing their doors around Ireland. Shops are closing their doors around Ireland. We have main streets that are failing. A lot of money is going into the town centre first policy and all these schemes. I feel that the croí cónaithe scheme for houses should be for main streets and for shops. A lot of the problem with our main streets is that our buildings are really old - they are over 100 years old - and people cannot afford to do them up to stay in them. I think we should focus on keeping our centres vibrant and alive by putting money in and allowing people to be able to develop and do up their shops and their buildings. I listened to Mr. Leahy talking about new hubs. That is all new money and government funding. While the main streets are closing, people are going into these new hubs. I would prefer to keep the people and the families on the main streets. I see that the biggest obstacles to that are rent and rates. We have social enterprises which do not pay rates and I think this is creating a conflict. I have a friend in the North who tells me that their streets are full of social enterprises competing against enterprises that are paying rates and rent and there is a conflict there.

Ms Aylward was 100% correct when she talked about the roads. The roads are a huge problem and we need more investment in our roads. In my area, the east-west link project has been forgotten about. Millions and millions of euro were spent in research, plans, pre-plans and drawings and it has gone nowhere. I want the witnesses to change my mind about social enterprises. I feel that we should be supporting those publicans, those shops and those family businesses to stay on the streets and keep their businesses open.

Mr. Ian Talbot:

I thank the Senator. We are not here in any way to comment on or do down social enterprises. They provide a very valuable thing. We also have business concerns about trying to keep businesses open and alive and our town centres vibrant. We are big supporters of things like the Think Small First policy, the SME tests being conducted by Departments to make sure that new regulations are capable of being dealt with, and the regulations associated by small businesses and so on. We are big supporters of croí cónaithe. Yes it has been successful but there is a whole lot more we need to do about above-the-shop living and so on. We have lots of recommendations in the overall national Chambers Ireland submission.

Also key here is infrastructure, which comes up with Deputy Aird's questions as well about the importance of infrastructure generally. In some areas it will be roads, in other areas it will be rail, and in other areas it will be upgrading the energy grid. We have a population that has grown dramatically. In my lifetime it was as low as 2.9 million people and we are now up to 5.5 million people and growing. We have an island with 8 million people on it. Our infrastructure development has not kept pace and it is holding everything back. It is holding social enterprise back, it is holding rural communities back and it is holding public transport back. From our perspective it is really essential that we keep investing in infrastructure. If we do not, we are just going to go further and further behind. It is really key. I think we would all agree on the need for the State to look more at multiannual funding to help things happen rather than the annual cliff edge we face every year.

Mr. John Leahy:

I thank Senator O'Reilly. We have to look at it in terms of urban versus rural. Urban centres will never be replaced by social enterprise because the footfall is there. When we talk about social enterprises, it is about how we keep the vibrancy in our small little rural area. That is the comparative I can show there. The Senator touched on the croí cónaithe grant. I think it was the best invention that ever came into play. I have seen it in my own town where we had 13 buildings on the main street that were vacant. Six of them were commercial and the remainder would have been residential. We now have six of them back in play. Some of them drew down the grant and some did not, but the grant created the environment to have the conversation. We are seeing residential life coming back into it.

Do I see the model of commercial rates and various other payments to the local authorities being the downfall of business? I do not. I think commercial rates are very low. In many rural towns they would not be paying more than €1,000 a year. It is not this that is going to make or break a business as such. Consider my town, which replicates the situation in a lot of towns. There were seven pubs in Kilcormac at one stage and now there are four. Anybody thinking about setting up a pub now would say that the demographic has changed, society has changed and there is not the business for it. There were two retail shops primarily selling newspapers but they no longer exist. When I look at a business model for someone to come into the town of Kilcormac it is hard to see it because we do not have the footfall, and people would nearly do a bigger shop elsewhere rather than go down the town to support a little shop that maybe has the newspapers, the milk, the bread, the butter and that type of stuff. Society has changed and there is no convincing on that: it is just the reality of it, unfortunately.

I do not see that social hubs are taking away from town centres. A very typical example is one of our small working hubs, which is no bigger than maybe 20 sq. m. We got someone in there and we were able to give them a reduced commercial rate because it was a case of getting them in and supporting them. We were getting €50 a week off the little hub they were working off. They have now moved up to Main Street because they have expanded their business. There is no way they would have made the jump to Main Street initially because they would not have had the supports that we gave them. We built it around them, got people in, and helped them with the promotion side of it. This is where I see a social enterprise being important. It is about giving them a leg up to go onto bigger things. Every town and village is different.

There are social hubs we were involved in with the just transition in the initial stage that was given by the Government. We utilised that to put a café down in the community centre. It is very simple. The N52 runs through our town. Nobody would stop and everyone was just getting through the town quickly. There was no parking. Now we have created a café and five people will be employed. It is going to open at the end of this month. Social enterprise has a home in rural areas, not in urban areas.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I ask Mr. Geoghegan to be brief as we are out of time.

Mr. Dónall Geoghegan:

The issues that are raised are real and they need to be looked at. Let us look at it in terms of community organisations and development organisations at a local level, as explained in terms of the Kilcormac Development Association. There are examples of that right around the country. My own experience is that seven years ago I visited Creeslough.

Deputy Gallagher would know it very well. It was dead on its feet. As a village, it was dying. The local development organisation was able to work with local businesses to encourage social enterprises. Good social enterprises work with and alongside businesses. There is no competition. If there are issues to be sorted out, that can be done. There is now a vibrant community development association in Creeslough that it is starting to turn things around in the village, particularly after the tragedy. Shops are opening. I was up there at a festival just a few weeks ago. You could see the life coming back onto the street. Working with businesses, vibrant community organisations can bring villages and towns to life.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry I was bit late coming in from the centre of the world, Donegal Airport. I apologise for that. As I always say, I think I am the only Member of the Dáil or Seanad who flies in to sessions here.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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You are lucky to have an airport.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We are but it did not fall from the sky. We had to work on that over many years with people like the late John Wilson, Ray MacSharry and others who had faith in what we wanted to do. It was the local community that did that. It was not the Government of the day that said it would offer it because Donegal is more than four hours from Dublin and has no rail service. We came up against obstacles. Again, it was the local community that was responsible for it. I had not intended to say that but, now that it has been said, the number of people who use the airport every day is amazing. You can leave Donegal at 8 a.m. and be in Dublin at 9 a.m. and in the city centre by 9.45 a.m. Together with that road in the sky, fibre broadband has ensured that we can have services and industry in the most rural parts of Ireland. I come from a rural part of Ireland, west Donegal. I am very familiar with Creeslough, which I have represented for nearly 45 years. Mr. Geoghegan is quite right to say it is the community there that has done this since the unfortunate tragedy we had in Creeslough some time ago.

What seems to come through from those presentations I had the opportunity to listen to is the witnesses all spoke about multi-annual funding. I grew up in business. Multi-annual funding is absolutely essential. You cannot survive otherwise. I am glad to hear reference being made to the Department of rural and community development and other Government Departments but this has to be across the board. It needs to be a cross-party decision and a decision by Government to ensure multi-annual funding.

The next point that comes across is that reasonable funds are provided for investment but this is not matched by additional funds for operational purposes. It is good to invest but if you do not have additional funding for operational purposes, it makes things much more difficult. Every capital grant should be matched by a given percentage of operational costs.

It is remarkable to hear that up to 1,600 meals a month are provided in Kilcormac. They are only provided because people need them. That is an indication of the level of poverty. Kilcormac is a long way from home. When I first saw it, I wondered about other parts of the country. I suddenly realised that Kilcormac is a microcosm of the rest of the country. The witnesses could be speaking for any part of rural Ireland.

I am aware of the Wheel. Some 35,000 organisations are affiliated to it. There is a need for that network. The witnesses have genuinely made very serious presentations. They take a bottom-up approach and they know what is needed in rural Ireland. They are doing what the Government would be doing if their organisations did not exist. I should not say it would be doing it but it would have to provide some level of service, although it would not be to the same degree as the organisations are providing. If their people were taken out of it tomorrow morning, all of the services being provided would collapse.

On roads, I have always said that the most important road is the road out of one's home to the county or local road. It is important that we continue to provide local improvement schemes to facilitate people in that way. As it stands, the local improvement schemes use tarmac. I am a critic of this. The roads are like runways. When I had responsibility for this area, from 2002 to 2004, we provided the basic tar and chips. People were happy with that. You could then do three or four times as many roads as are done now. Anyone who applies for the LIS now will be well gone by the time they are reached. Even some of the youngest people here will be well gone by the time those people on the list are got to. We have to improve that and improve the infrastructure that has been referred to.

I compliment the witnesses but it would be wrong of us to come here and compliment them if we do not do something about it. We would be wasting their time and ours. There must be follow-up with the various Departments so that we can reflect the witnesses' concerns. Those concerns are not the concerns of the eight people here today but those of the people that they and I represent. We would be much worse off if they were not there.

Mr. Briain Smyth:

I thank the Deputy and Senator O'Reilly very much. Irish Rural Link has a number of projects under way. On the social enterprise side, the rural innovation and social enterprise scheme is a PEACEPLUS cross-Border project that we are quite proud of. We are just after closing the first round in the last couple of weeks. We have had 86 participants on a cross-Border project to try to foster and encourage rural social enterprise. A sister project to that is the maximising community space scheme. We run this scheme to bring vibrancy back into local towns and villages. We work with people like John Leahy to see what is required to rebuild that vibrancy in towns and to encourage people back into the heart of the village. On the town centre first plans, the first round provides €100,000 and the next round provides €30,000. That needs complete funding. Complete planning is needed for it.

I will follow up on Deputy Gallagher's point on the multi-annual element. There is a significant element that we want to bring to the table - the CAP programme that is currently under negotiation. The two pillars, Pillar 1 and Pillar 2, are converging into a single point. There is a particular threat to rural community funding. Schemes like LEADER are under threat. We run CAP Network Ireland on behalf of the Irish Government. We are to the very fore. My colleague James Claffey runs it. I was talking to him before we came in. We see a threat there. We see a need for an all-party discussion about protecting, enhancing and adapting that funding after the 2027 discussions. It is important to highlight that this will have serious consequences for rural Ireland and for funding for good social enterprises and things like the LIS that the Deputy referred to. The CAP is one element that had the potential to provide multi-annual funding but that funding will no longer be available. We need a fresh discussion on how to replace all of that.

Mr. James Claffey:

To add to what Mr. Smyth has said and to respond to Senator O'Reilly and Deputy Gallagher, we represent the National Meals on Wheels Network across the country and I firmly agree with the Senator. We should be encouraging people to live on the main streets of towns and villages across Ireland. We have loads of different ideas about how to support that. I also agree that social enterprise should never be in competition with private businesses. I will give the example of the meals and wheels network in Portlaoise in Deputy Aird's constituency. We have introduced a protocol for setting up a meals on wheels service there. One of the first steps was to look at private enterprises in the area to see if anyone was available to provide the service. We are fully in agreement with that. The Deputy will be aware that a couple of private enterprises tried to deliver meals on wheels within that community but were not able to do so.

That is where social enterprise and the community have filled that need. That is what the community is trying to do and will continue to do going forward, but I absolutely agree with the Deputy's sentiment.

Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot:

To get back to what the committee can concretely do after this meeting, as the Deputy said, we have all talked about multi-annual funding. That is something we in the Wheel have been advocating for for a number of years. There is a momentum. It is mentioned in the programme for Government that there are internal discussions within Tusla and the HSE, two of the biggest funding organisations for community and voluntary sector organisations, about moving towards multi-annual funding. As members of this committee and members of the Committee on Budgetary Oversight know, this is a cross-departmental issue. Therefore, we need to have similar conversations in other committees and to write to the Department of public expenditure to advocate for the importance of moving towards multi-annual funding. In terms of operational costs, while Mr. Geoghegan talked about non-pay issues, which are also significant, if multi-annual funding is provided but the funding is not enough to pay for the service, we still have an issue. These are two issues that have to be taken together.

Following the WRC process, a data-gathering process was undertaken in a KOSI survey. We had a very high response rate of 70% from more than 1,000 organisations funded by the HSE, Tusla, the Department of housing and Cuan about the extent of non-pay issues, such as auto-enrolment and other things. The figures should be available at the beginning of August. Once we have those, there is something to be done, such as writing to the Department of public expenditure to ask it to implement the recommendations of this survey.

Ms Michelle Aylward:

I will come back to Deputy O’Reilly. It is great to hear she has such a passion regarding town centres. For us, as a member organisation within County Tipperary, we are very strong advocates of town centres. It is important to know that town centres and the way people use them are changing and the Government must fall into line with that. We now need to be able to create experiences in our town centres to generate footfall for people to be able to go into the towns. The younger generation are no longer going into a shop to buy; they shop online and do different things like that. We need enhancements in the night-time economy to support our local publicans, arts festivals and things like that to get people back into the towns.

An initiative we introduced in County Tipperary is our Love Tipperary card. I know a number of our chambers have introduced it in terms of shopping local. It is a big thing and we are very proud of it. We introduced it with a 0% commission so that it does not affect the retailers, but the beauty of it is a person cannot shop online with it so we are encouraging footfall back into our local communities. We have also tapped in with all of our members and the business community so they are using it as a tax incentive in order that local people are spending money within communities. This is to make sure that income does not leave County Tipperary. We are very passionate about those small changes.

We are also very supportive of the over the shop grant recently introduced by the Government. However, I know from speaking with our members that there are a number of changes which may need to come into it. It is only open to sole traders and there are a number of opportunities out there for business people or companies to be able to invest. Housing is a huge issue and if they can invest in these over the shop initiatives it gives them an opportunity to create properties to keep people in our town centres. That has a big knock-on effect on staff retention.

Mr. Ian Talbot:

I have a very quick point in response to Deputy Gallagher. We are very bad in this country for not celebrating success. The Deputy mentioned Skyway Broadband. Where would we have been if Covid had happened in 2015? We do not give ourselves a pat on the back to say what a great job we did in delivering broadband and how successful it has been.

Going back to population growth, we need to look more at local authority capacity and expanding the responsibilities of local authorities versus the centralised model we still have, as we have a growing population. We need to get closer to people and to solving those local issues. As the Deputy described, it is the last mile or kilometre connecting people to their local communities. We look forward to the Jim Breslin report when it comes out. I am sure there will be more work to be done.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I will let the witnesses know we did a good bit of work on the LEADER programme and rural development. We are launching a report on that tomorrow in the audiovisual room. It will be widely available afterwards so they will see the fruits of the labour of the committee for the past number of months.

I have a few queries and will come to Ms Aylward and Mr. Talbot first. Ms Aylward mentioned town centre first and those plans. Has any town in County Tipperary received funding for a town centre first plan?

Ms Michelle Aylward:

Yes, they have, but again-----

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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How many?

Ms Michelle Aylward:

Just one.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Which town is that?

Ms Michelle Aylward:

Clonmel.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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That is the largest one. Ms Aylward mentioned there are vacancies and the 18.1%. What is the view of Chambers Ireland on that? There is a lot of retail space. Do we need a lot more retail space than we did before? I do not think so, personally. Ms Aylward mentioned that a lot of people are moving online. I represent a lot of small towns in my own constituency. Should we not be brave enough to make a decision to turn them back to residential use or should we focus on retail centres? What is Ms Aylward’s view on that?

Ms Michelle Aylward:

It is to focus on retail centres in terms of creating experiences to go in there. When we look at how County Tipperary is performing in terms of the economy, and it is doing very well in terms of our outskirts, the concern is our town centres. There has to be a mix. If you go into any of the local towns, you cannot buy a newspaper or a carton of milk. That is a big issue. We need to get that blend where there is a mix of changing the way people look at our town centres and creating outdoor entertainment space. We saw it during Covid and it encouraged people to go back into our town centres. That has a knock-on effect in terms of buying a coffee, bringing the kids in, being happy to go back into town and getting a rural link to connect to the town.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Does Chambers Ireland have a position in terms of retail space?

Mr. Ian Talbot:

It is hard to have a one-size-fits-all approach but we very much support the redevelopment of town centres and getting people back living in town centres whether it is above the shop, in new developments or converting spaces that used to be okay for retail. Typically retail now needs bigger footprints than it did traditionally, including in big cities. We can look at Stephen’s Green Shopping Centre and the debates about the footprints being too small there. We have the same issue locally. For a retail outlet to be viable, it will probably need bigger footprints than a house that has been converted. We are all about getting people back living in town centres. Things will grow around that, whether these are restaurants, bars, cafés or whatever, if we get people living in town centres. If they are all living 3 km outside of town, and the road connection does not bring them to the town centre and there is no public transport, the town is going to keep dying.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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The croí cónaithe grant was mentioned. That has been a huge success, particularly in rural areas but also in towns and villages. The above the shop grant will be a huge success but Ms Aylward is right, it needs some tweaks. Being available to sole traders or independent persons is fine, but it needs to be available to companies as well so we can get as many people back living in our town centres as possible.

On Irish Rural Link, one of the things that stands out and has been mentioned by a number of members is the capital and resilience package for the National Meals on Wheels Network. We have all been so reliant on Meals on Wheels since Covid times. The organisation came to the fore in particular in terms of what it does during storms. It is the first to get the service out to the person themselves. The Minister allocated €2 million extra this year for the scheme, but looking at a focused package for that would be very welcome.

Mr. Briain Smyth:

We have a document with the Minister on that. To expand on it, we have been very focused on the storm resiliency element. We have the paper we produced recently on preparedness for natural weather events. More importantly, we proposed to the Ministers in both the Department of Rural, Community Development and the Gaeltacht and the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment, that the Meals on Wheels service should be included in the national emergency response group as part of the first-line response. I am privileged to be on the Meals on Wheels national steering group and the people we work with are the first on the scene and often the only people who talk to people down the end of a long boreen. They combat the loneliness of rural areas.

The loneliness is one of the big things we are seeing. When talking about the resilience of the network, a capital grant gives us the ability to put in things like generators and be able to invite people in to charge mobile phones, bring a hot meal and provide that solace and the community that is required if the power is not available. In Storm Éowyn we saw that - it was not available for two to three weeks in certain areas in deep, dark rural Ireland and it was quite hard. It is important that we are able to bring that renewable energy because it is also climate resilience as well, climate adaption, to enable these facilities to be islanded so that people can cook their own food and allow for power generation for communities to be able to charge a phone to communicate and let people know they are all right. That capital grant is one of the most important things. It is a win from every perspective. I would encourage the committee to take a long look at that in the package.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Jacquinot, Mr. Geoghegan and Mr. Leahy mentioned it. It has come across very clearly this morning that multi-annual funding is really important for the community and voluntary sector. We have done it with other Departments. We did it for Tusla, as Mr. Jacquinot said, and the HSE. The community and voluntary sector relies on having consistency for staff retention, first, but also to ensure it can continue to provide services into the future. That is something the committee will look at in what it is asking of the Minister in the budget.

I am disappointed to hear about the issue relating to auto-enrolment. We did a lot of work on auto-enrolment. in this committee. We had the Department and the Minister in as well as many others who are involved in NAERSA, which supports that. There was a clear understanding and direction that those costs were to be covered and it is disappointing to hear the community and voluntary sector had to fund that themselves. It might be getting extra money for auto-enrolment. but then it has to make cost savings on the other side of things. It was very clear at this committee that auto-enrolment. was to be an initial cost, particularly on the community and voluntary sector, and it was supposed to be supported through the Department. That is something we will take away this morning. Now that auto-enrolment. is in and working - I think it has had a fairly successful uptake - the committee will revisit that and part of that will be to revisit covering the cost for the community and voluntary sector in particular.

Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot:

On auto-enrolment. we are leading a coalition of sections 10, 39, 40 and 56 organisations across the board. The vast majority of them did not get any funding for auto-enrolment. There are a few individual cases of negotiating, such as in service level agreements, to include them but it is more the exception than the norm.

A lot of HSE-funded organisations have asked that HSE funding would be available for auto-enrolment. They have not received a response. Tusla actually wrote to the Government to say that charities needed funding or they would have to either cut their services by 1.5% or refuse to implement something that is a legal requirement. They are stuck in that dilemma.

The KOSI survey includes questions on auto-enrolment. The survey at the beginning of August will give us more insight into auto-enrolment. funding across the board.

Mr. Dónall Geoghegan:

My colleague was quite right earlier in saying multi-annual funding must also take account of the increased cost of providing the services. We know that differs hugely between the State bodies and Departments whether they actually include things like auto-enrolment. and others.

One final thing on the funding organisations, the State also has a role in encouraging giving - philanthropy. As part of that, the Government should, for this budget, look at how it incentivises giving to organisations like our member organisations and others. How do we do that? It has already been done for sports organisations. There are ways of doing that and various models. It would be useful to have some discussion in this committee and elsewhere about what that might look like. There is a real opportunity in this budget to support people to make donations. Nearly half the funding that goes to community and voluntary organisations is through donations. The State accounts for the rest. We can encourage greater giving as well as, quite obviously, encouraging the State to provide multi-annual funding and to meet that gap.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Geoghegan. I am out of time and will go back to Deputy McGuinness.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for this engagement. It is really useful. I have been taking notes. I apologise that I had to go to speak in the Dáil earlier.

My first question is to Mr. Smyth and Irish Rural Link. It boils down to a lot of the challenges facing rural Ireland: housing and planning, which is something the committee might come back to at another meeting, but also connection. I see it as incorporating the issue of access to public services, as well as those of isolation and loneliness, but also transport. Transport is key to accessing those services, especially when they are becoming more concentrated in towns, and also building connection and tackling isolation. I will give an example. There is a group here from Grange in County Waterford. Councillor Kate O’Mahony is accompanying them. Bus Éireann has removed a bus stop in a fairly substantially populated rural area because of a lack of roads investment. There has been a lack of investment in the N25, the road has not had safety upgrades and it has become unsafe. That has had knock-on impacts. This is a semi-State body, engaging with TII and Waterford City and County Council, that has had to pull a service off an intercity route. No substitute has been made there. Local Link has been approached and is looking at what it can do but we have been told there will be no new routes in Local Link this year and potentially next year. This community is left high and dry. People, including young people accessing training, apprenticeships, school or public services, and older people who are trying to maintain that connection with their society and community ,are all left high and dry or forced into cars and, if they do not have a car themselves, they are forced to go to neighbours. It is something that needs to be highlighted. It summed up the problem in terms of connection.

I totally agree that Local Link should be empowered on a national level to make its own decisions and not have to go to the NTA on every single occasion to look for permission to launch or tailor a route. Sometimes the flow goes the other way, where the NTA effectively says “Jump” and the local group has to say, “How high would you like us to jump?” which is a backwards way of working things. That demand is clearly visible on the ground and it is one that I would like to support. I imagine it would be fairly cost-neutral for the State. It is one the Ministers should look at and I will bring it to them following this meeting.

On isolation, we had a discussion here today about looking at rural pubs, for example, and other rural businesses. If the witnesses were designing a meeting of this committee to look at the issue of isolation, who should be around the table as witnesses?

Mr. Briain Smyth:

We had our AGM two weeks ago and at that meeting I highlighted the isolation element. It is a public health matter. When you are down at the end of a long boreen and you are not able to have the services you see everybody else in the country having, and you are not able to get a bus and there is no one down there to help you, it can be very isolating. This has to be a multi-agency task force to try to see what we can do. It is even things like meals on wheels, which I keep coming back to. Deputy Gallagher spoke about LIS and Mr. Leahy spoke about the availability of cars for meals on wheels. If you do not have the ability to get to the transport and get people out of the area, you have to make sure the services required to go to them are there, but they are not. They are missing. Irish Rural Link is often conflated with Local Link. One out of every two calls I get is about Local Link services and asking me to try to do something about that.

Often when speaking to the transport managers, I found they were afraid to change existing services that could be changed to adapt to local needs. If the NTA sees things that potentially have not been looked at in 20 years for people who might be in day care or other elements, they are afraid to change it because if they do so, they may lose the funding. I think the Deputy is right that we may not see any increase this year, and we might not even see any increase next year, from having discussions with them. We have been advocating for changes, for example, in Coole in County Westmeath, where there is an IPAS centre. There are people there who cannot afford to get out. They have lost the local shop and the local medical centre. The cost there now is being borne by having to pay for taxis to get 15 km to 20 km. That is not small money. It is an all-agency response to try to address that. On connectivity, it is all right talking about digital connectivity and taking Deputy Gallagher's point on the road in the sky. Nobody of the older cohort is sufficiently versed to go onto a Teams meeting with the person down the road. One of the things I wanted to highlight in respect of the GAAGo element was that there were a series of community centres in Kerry recently that brought in people from the local area, not necessarily for a drink but to sit in the community centre to watch the local match and to try to address that loneliness. There are things like the GAA social initiative and various other initiatives out there. It is transport, transport, transport. We talk about climate resilience and climate adaptation. Put a bus outside somebody's door and let them use it to go to the pubs.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We see the advantage of that right across rural Ireland. I see it across County Waterford, where Local Link has made great strides over the last number of years and has really allowed people to travel around in their own county, go to other towns and villages, expand their social lives, access training and all the rest of it.

I have a question for Ms Aylward. I listened with interest when she was talking about transport, to stick with the theme. I totally agree that there is absolutely a need to see significant investment in the N24. It is important for Tipperary but also for Kilkenny and my own constituency of Waterford. It is really disappointing that it was not provided with funding in the last round for urgent upgrades. I would also include the N25 in that and the R671, which connects Dungarvan with Clonmel and is an important transport route for both Waterford and Tipperary. The N25 and the N24 are dangerous stretches of road. I think the N25 has the dubious honour of being the most dangerous stretch of national primary route, and the N24 is not far behind it. Both are critically important to the regional economy in the south east and to counties Tipperary and Waterford. In this forum, I reiterate the call for urgent safety upgrades and urgent capacity upgrades. If we are talking about rural Ireland and regional balance and equity, if we do not have the transport infrastructure to underscore that and to facilitate growth, diversification and primary producers and manufacturers getting their products to market, we are on a hiding to nothing, to put it bluntly.

Ms Michelle Aylward:

I agree with the Deputy that Tipperary is a connector and opening up the N24 creates huge opportunities not just for Tipperary but also surrounding counties. We will be calling very strongly for funding for the N24 and the other major roads.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Aird has five minutes for a supplementary question.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I have questions for Mr. Leahy and Mr. Geoghegan. I thank Mr. Leahy for the great work he has done. There are many people like him across the country and I take the opportunity to acknowledge the great and very valuable work that is done. As he rightly outlined, it is not a competition with existing business. It is a place to try to improve the rural areas we live in, and the urban areas.

There was a lot of talk today about living over the shop. I saw all the changes as a public representative. The first change was the filling stations in the towns. They all became shops that provided everything except fresh meat. Then we saw the domino effect of that, but worse was to come when the multi-stores came in, such as the likes of Dunnes Stores and Tesco. They were moving outside the town perimeter. I blame planners for that. They took them out. We saw in Tullamore the distance out they were located. That was sucking people out, not bringing people back in. Now there has been a whole U-turn and we are trying to keep the people in. I would prefer if we did not use the phrase "over-the-shop living". I would prefer if we spoke about the living. I knew all the shops in my own towns and throughout the villages. The retail business was in the front room and they were living in the rest of it: the kitchen and maybe one or two bedrooms upstairs. The problem is all those businesses are gone. We are not going to get those type of businesses back. They were all self-contained. There was the butcher, who reared his family. There was the person selling the newspapers. There was always a couple of little toy shops. All those are gone; they cannot survive anymore. What we are trying to do is to make that a liveable house. If the person is gone, and there are a lot of them gone, take the house back into the ownership of Laois County Council, give them the value of the house and put somebody living there. To live in a town now is different from the town that I was reared in. There are parks, cycleways, leisure centres and everything. You can live in the middle of a town and have a very good upbringing in a town centre area, but there is too much talk about it. I would prefer to see delivery on it.

Meals on wheels is very important. It is getting out to the right people and I wish them well in Portlaoise. I want to say about rural Ireland, although the Deputy has gone now, that things have changed out there. We talked about local area schemes, LAS. I was all my life looking at doing local area schemes. I remember one thing and it is huge argument that I have. Everybody is paying a household charge, even in the most rural of rural areas, and what are they getting for it? They are getting nothing. Do not talk about lights inside in a town or leisure centres in a town to people cannot get a local area scheme for 15 years and waiting. There needs to be more joined-up thinking. We have moved on from that way of going on. They are just a few points we have to get to.

I want to ask Mr. Leahy quickly, because I want to talk to The Wheel as well, what evidence can he provide that increased core funding to community organisations delivers better outcomes and tax incentives? I will ask him my three questions. They are very simple but it is very difficult to ask a person who is delivering on the ground, like Mr. Leahy. That is all I can say. What accountability and performance measures would accompany multi-annual funding to ensure it is delivering results? Mr. Leahy proposes recognising meals on wheels as essential national infrastructure. What role should the State play in this and what role should remain with local communities and volunteers to preserve the community-led nature of the service?

Mr. John Leahy:

I will be quick. I thank the Deputy and agree with his statement on how towns and villages have changed over time. On how we bring value, I believe the value is there already. The numbers stack up. My colleagues from Irish Rural Link have given an overall view of the country. I have just given a view of a small area. I think Deputy Gallagher mentioned the fact that I am just one of many organisations across the country. The value is there. I do not think we would be here unless we were at a point where we are at the top of the hill and we just need that support. The value is there in terms of health service. We see that the GPs and medical services around us are constantly referring people in to us. That is where the referrals come from. That is helping rural isolation.

On accountability, anywhere there is State funding there is massive accountability. That is taking up most of our staff time, and rightly so. If you get a euro from the State, you should be accountable and it should be measured. I think the mechanisms are there. Some people might say the accountability is over-regulated; I would say it is important we have it. The reason we have regulations is that someone made a mistake somewhere down the line, and it is important they are there. They were not just created out of nowhere. I think the accountability mechanism is already there. If future funding was to come, we would just follow that model.

In terms of meals on wheels being recognised as national infrastructure, what was the Deputy's question?

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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To be part of every community. No community is different as regards meals on wheels. It is the same uptake, depending on the population, and the demand is there for meals on wheels.

Mr. John Leahy:

We have a great scenario here. We have created the perfect bubble in that we are very much community-driven volunteers who sit on boards and have created this meals on wheels within our services. We are very fortunate that we have staff that serve not just Kilcormac but seven or eight other communities outside our own parish. We have the model; it is to sustain and grow it.

That is where it needs to be. If that were then recognised in multi-annual funding, I think we could drive it on from there.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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We need to-----

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I forgot to tell you, Chairman, that Sarah O'Reilly said that I could have her time while she is gone.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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She told me the same.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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All right. We can share it two and a half minutes apiece.

The Wheel is seeking an increase in the multi-annual funding. What measurable improvements in the service or outcomes should taxpayers expect in return for that investment?

Mr. Dónall Geoghegan:

As my colleague has said, every single organisation has to account for the funding it gets and provide an account of exactly what it has done with it. What are the services? If it is contracted by the State to provide particular services, it accounts for that. It issues a report every year, and the Deputy is absolutely correct that it is right that it does so and that the State requires that report of what it has done and how it has used its funding and to make sure that it can account for it, but-----

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Geoghegan said that the funding has not kept pace with rising costs. What evidence can the Wheel provide that existing funding is being used as efficiently as possible before additional funding is sought? This is the argument we are putting forward for the witnesses with the Minister.

Mr. Dónall Geoghegan:

Look at the evidence of all the organisations that provide those kinds of services. Look at what they have said about it in their annual reports. Look at the Charities Regulator's reports that show that there is good, effective spending of public resources. That is something we stand over.

Just one other thing I want to pick up on is that if you are looking for what difference multi-annual funding would make, look at the evidence from organisations that get multi-annual funding. On page 13 of our budget submission, there is an account of a particular organisation that gets it and it outlines exactly how it helps it to be able to plan-----

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but the burden of compliance has also been highlighted. Could Mr. Geoghegan identify specific requirements that could be simplified without reducing transparency or accountability of public money, to cut through the red tape?

Mr. Dónall Geoghegan:

Absolutely. There are probably two things we could do. One is to make it easier for smaller organisations to comply, keeping the same standards, not reducing standards whatsoever, but making it easier for them to comply.

The other thing is for the bigger organisations that get funding from various sources. Sometimes three, four, five or six different State bodies are funding them for different organisations, like Mr. Leahy has outlined. In those cases, we could make it simpler. We could have one computer system whereby they can input their reports and the same kinds of questions can be answered easily so we can rationalise the reporting systems and compliance systems to make it easier.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but Mr. Leahy said that 38% of organisations-----

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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No, Deputy you are out of time now.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, can you let me-----

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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No, Deputy.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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-----come back in? We will get a third round, will we not?

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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You can come back in again if you want to-----

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Great. That is all right. I will be back to Mr. Geoghegan.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely.

On my own behalf, I have just two other questions, one for Mr. Leahy. Mr. Leahy mentioned the multi-annual community services sustainability fund. Could he go into more detail as to what that would look like in terms of what community and voluntary organisations would apply for it, whether they are the ones that are providing services or whether they are all community organisations or what?

Mr. John Leahy:

I would see it as the ones providing services. If we open it up to the whole country, it probably gets very diluted.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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How many organisations, roughly, is that?

Mr. John Leahy:

I do not know. My colleagues in front of me would probably be in a better position to see how many CSPs are out there nationally.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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So it would be only ones that are CSPs.

Mr. John Leahy:

Yes, because they are the ones taking the lead on the likes of the services we are talking about. We started as a voluntary organisation. I remember starting out with meals on wheels a number of years ago. We were putting out 12 meals a week. That was very sustainable for a voluntary organisation and we had voluntary drivers. We are putting out 400 now. No volunteer is going to sustain that. No voluntary group is going to say one morning, "There is funding here, so we will start meals on wheels here." We are covering a third of the county and then there are other organisations within our county through, say, the likes of LEADER that are covering probably another third of the county. We are very much volunteer led. That support might drive this forward.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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That is very clear. Have you a figure on the fund?

Mr. John Leahy:

I do not for the very simple reason that I appreciate how the political system works and I appreciate that there are people coming in here for asks. I would say the minimum we need here is a sustainability model that actually works for the groups that are already in existence. I made this statement already. I think we are at the top of the hill at the moment. I do not know how long we can stay on the top of the hill as to how we are funded at this point in time. I know this is an awful thing to say, and some of my colleagues might criticise me for saying it, but at this point we would nearly see an operational fund over a capital fund going forward because we have received the capital and built the infrastructure, but now we are trying to sustain it. That is where we are.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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To Mr. Geoghegan and Mr. Jacquinot and to follow on from that operational point, it has become pretty apparent to all members that the capital works are pretty good and there are a lot of schemes out there for communities and community and voluntary associations to apply for, but there is quite a challenge now in terms of operating that system. It is very easy to build it, but it is a matter of managing and minding it afterwards.

Mr. Dónall Geoghegan:

It is like a computer system. You need the hardware and you need the software. Yes, we need to put money into village centres and town centres and all the hardware that makes the village look different and brings people in and all that, but we also need the software. Up the road from me, a community organisation of Tidy Towns meets every Saturday morning and cleans that street. It involves about 30 people doing that. Half of the people who take part in that are from the local IPAS centre. That creates in itself a model that is followed right around the country where there is much greater integration of people in that local area. It is a matter of us creating social inclusion and social cohesion by investing in that software, if you like, of encouraging community life on the streets and elsewhere, in community centres - you name it.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Claffey, do you wish to briefly comment?

Mr. James Claffey:

Just a couple of comments on the accountancy and the value for money Deputy Aird has acknowledged. Meals on wheels do much more than that. They also provide school meals. A lot of them are moving towards a model of community catering now. They are expanding their services, looking at different opportunities and adhering to quarterly reports through the HSE. I will give the committee a couple of basic statistics. We have mapped 310 providers on our website. A third of those have a waiting list, so there is a shortage in respect of those clients. We are very appreciative of the budget increase of €8.2 million that was put forward last year. That was 2.8 million meals delivered across the whole of Ireland, so a third of people are still waiting for more meals there as well. In addition, a third of providers do not receive HSE funding. It is done through voluntary work, fundraising, etc. Irish Rural Link, along with the network, has done a lot of research on this. A lot of providers are using pen and paper to do all their returns and things like that. We are trying to pilot software that will make it easier and reduce the burden on these organisations. Some of our colleagues have already mentioned that a lot of the time being enforced by managers is actually put into governance and compliance, and rightly so, but also those services should be alleviated a small bit to allow them to do the work on the ground.

It is very important that we record all this, but we are actually not recording all the social good these organisations are doing in terms of keeping people out of hospitals and taking them out of hospitals earlier. In addition, you can never account for finding someone who is unwell, finding them on the floor in their home or whatever the case may be. That can never be accurately recorded but it should be acknowledged at all stages

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy McGuinness has a supplementary question.

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Just to give a contrary view in terms of the capital versus operational or current, I definitely hear the feedback and I hear the rationales but I would caution against saying we are okay on the capital side because there are areas of the State where we are not quite there yet. I am thinking of Dungarvan, where we do not have a community centre or a family resource centre and where that community infrastructure is just not in place yet. I would also be cautious even for this committee to be airing a view that the capital side is fixed because if there is to be a decrease in, say, capital funding, over time it will be slow to ramp back up, and in ten or 15 years we might find that the areas that did not have it still do not have it and the areas that have the infrastructure have gone ten years without upgrade. I would just caution against that message being made here-----

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy McGuinness, just to be clear, no one said that. What we said is that the capital fund was there, and I am sure all the witnesses would say that-----

Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I am just making a point about how that point is communicated. I got the point, but lest anyone misinterpret that or use it as licence not to continue the capital funding, a level of nuance needs to be applied for anybody listening in who might take the wrong meaning out of that.

That said, I totally appreciate the point that there needs to be a massive uptick in the operational costs. If we look at LEADER or SICAP and the element that could be used for animation and administration, it always involves putting the companies under pressure and is limiting how they can apply the capital side.

Community and voluntary organisations are being asked to do more and more with fewer or the same level of resources. On the other side, and perhaps this is why they are taken advantage of by the State in some respects, they are the go-to people to fill gaps when it comes to the provision of services by the State. We see that with meals on wheels. Something I am really concerned about is the lack of available childcare in towns and villages in rural areas. Where it exists, community childcare really works. These facilities are under pressure as are private providers of childcare. I am sure that this is a matter that the social protection side of this committee will examine as well but we see an upturn in unemployment in a cohort of younger women from their mid-20s up to about 40. It is still quite low but we see that uptick and the trend going in the wrong direction. It might be a guess, but we can extrapolate that part of that is down to the crisis relating to the availability of childcare. What role can social enterprises and community childcare providers play?

Mr. Dónall Geoghegan:

In the previous life, I worked for Early Childhood Ireland. I know there are massive challenges in childcare. The Deputy is right. There is under-provision in particular areas and people cannot get childcare in order to be able to go to work. Community childcare provision is essential as part of the infrastructure of childcare. There are organisations in the sector that find it very difficult to recruit and retain staff, which is part of the problem. This is another example of the State providing supports for a community organisation that is providing essential supports and services within the community as I am with the Deputy on that. There is a long way to go regarding childcare. The Deputy commented on the wider childcare agenda, but community childcare providers are struggling right now.

Mr. Briain Smyth:

There is a point to be made about rural homelessness, particularly for the cohort identified by the Deputy, namely women in their early 20s with children who are living at home in rural areas. There is a lack of childcare in those areas to activate those women into work and there is a lack of transport and other services that go with it so it is a vicious circle. We spoke about it before we came before the committee. Rural homelessness among that cohort is completely silent, and we would like to see an awful lot more work done in that area.

Ms Louise Lennon:

Rural childcare providers are smaller and are very dependent on population. With that age group, it fluctuates from year to year and very often, providers' funding is dependent on that. It is a real struggle to stay afloat. As Mr. Geoghegan mentioned, trying to retain staff is another challenge. It is even harder to retain staff in a rural area. The consequences of that feed into primary schools. Very often, if someone is bringing their child to a large urban area, they have to travel to work on a daily basis to put their child in childcare in an urban area. The availability of after-school care can often be a factor in deciding to send a child to a school near an aftercare facility instead of to the local school. From speaking to a community childcare provider on one of the islands, I am aware that funding is often based on numbers. If that provider goes over a certain number, the funding is lost. This goes back to the Deputy's point about unemployment among women. They might need childcare for maybe six months of the year or less. It might not be available and, as a result, they are unable to work. Smaller providers have to meet the same regulation and criteria as the larger commercial operators.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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This is one of the best pre-budget meetings we have ever had. I use public transport every day that I can. I am a huge believer in public transport. I meet people on the 7.40 a.m. train going to Dublin, including young parents who have left children at a crèche. When I was a young fellow, there were not that many people who worked outside the home. Everybody has to work now because of mortgages. Childcare must be looked in the context of the budget and made affordable. The witnesses from the Wheel stated that 38% of organisations struggle to recruit and retain staff. How much of that is due to annual funding and how much is due to the wider labour market?

Mr. Guillaume Jacquinot:

In terms of multi-annual funding, a very concrete example is a HSE-funded organisation that has to recruit from year to year with zero certainty about how it can plan ahead. It cannot offer long-term contracts and people with mortgages or who are applying for mortgages need more certainty so the lack of multi-annual funding is an issue.

One issue we have not yet spoken about is pay. WRC agreements benefited some people in the organisations funded by the HSE and Tusla, namely the so-called section 10, section 39, section 40 and section 56 organisations. Not all staff were included, however. There are staff who are paid by the Departments of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, Education and Youth, Children, Disability and Equality and Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht. Within the same services that get different funding, one sees staff who got WRC increases while others did not. A two-tier system has been created as a result. The pay gap between public service staff and community and voluntary organisation staff remains.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Talbot, Ms Aylward, Mr. Leahy, Mr. Geoghegan, Mr. Jacquinot, Mr. Claffey, Mr. Smyth and Ms Lennon for attending. I also thank them for supplying the briefing materials in advance. We have had a robust discussion this morning with very good witnesses from four different groups. I will give the witnesses two minutes each to round off things.

Ms Michelle Aylward:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members. This was my first meeting, and I hope to come back. Infrastructure needs to be delivered in County Tipperary, particularly the N24 and N62. That will open up water, grid, reinforcement and local links. These are not isolated local asks. Housing, employment, town centre regeneration and rural enterprise will then follow. If infrastructure is not provided, we will not be able to make progress.

Mr. John Leahy:

The room has been read well, and we have support in the room. I appreciate the job the committee has to do. Many groups appear before it and there are a lot of constraints coming down the line. We would ask the committee to support the communities in terms of operational costs and the multi-annual funding we are looking for, particularly if it feels that what we have said here today is worthy. Take the financial burden off the likes of the volunteers and community services staff out there, and we will do more.

Mr. Dónall Geoghegan:

To a great degree, we focused on the services that are provided by our member organisations - the tapestry of community and voluntary organisations across the country.

What we are putting forward in terms of multiannual and adequate funding to provide them is really important. Everything we said and everything else in our budget submission would help that. There is another important dimension we got into, which is that community and voluntary organisations provide that software within our communities. That is good, not just for social inclusion, which it is, but also for social cohesion. If we are to meet and deal with the challenges we face now with disinformation, misinformation and the kinds of stories that go around dividing our society, we have to invest in community. That investment will pay off by acting as a bulwark within our democracy.

Mr. Briain Smyth:

I take up Mr. Geoghegan's point. One of the elements we would like to see, which I called for at the start, is reinstatement of the social dialogue structures that were dismantled after 2008. It is evident that the more we talk, the more we understand the issues on the ground. There is a need to ensure we have a voice from the rural, community and voluntary sector at that table because it is often the one that is not heard. We want to see proper rural-proofing in these budgets moving forward. From our perspective and universally around this table we want to see the capital allocation put into meals on wheels. We also want to make sure that transport services are on a firm footing. From a climate change, climate adaption and community basis and for the other elements we spoke about today, the multiannual function with transport is important to ensure we have the resilience of those communities moving forward.

John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank all of the organisations and the members for their contributions today. They are much appreciated. They will definitely feed into our budget discussions as we move forward to budget 2027.