Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 15 July 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science
Future of Carlow College, St. Patrick's: Discussion
2:00 am
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy O'Connell and Senator Paul Daly.
You are all very welcome to today's meeting. I ask anyone attending remotely to mute their microphones while not contributing so we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.
Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. If they wish to contribute as per the speaking rota, I ask them to please indicate by using the raised-hand function.
If the witnesses are on the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside of the Houses or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make them identifiable.
On the agenda for today's meeting is the future of Carlow College, St. Patrick's. Today's meeting will comprise two separate sessions. In session one from 12.30 p.m. to 1.10 p.m. the committee will hear from the staff and student representatives. In the session from 1.15 p.m. to 2.30 p.m., the committee will hear from representatives of Carlow College, St. Patrick's, South East Technological University and the Department Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science.
In order to facilitate participation by all members, each member will have three minutes for their engagement the witnesses in session one and four minutes each in session two. This allocation includes both questions and answers. Therefore, it is essential that members put their questions succinctly.
In our first session we welcome the following guests. From Carlow College, St. Patrick's, we are joined by Dr. James Heaney, lecturer in English and Irish studies. Dr. Heaney is the staff representative for non-unionised employees in respect of the collective redundancy consultation process currently under way at the college. From SIPTU, we have Ms Yvonne McGrath, organiser, education sector; Dr. Sarah Otten, Carlow College SIPTU staff representative; and Mr. Karl Byrne, organiser, education sector. You are all very welcome to today's committee meeting.
Carlow College, St. Patrick's students' union was also invited to this meeting but could not attend. It has however provided a written submission which has been circulated to members.
Due to time constraints arising from the day's meeting being split into two sessions, opening statements have been circulated in advance to members and will be taken as read. I will go to our first member today, Deputy McGettigan. She has three minutes.
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I thank everyone for coming in. I went down to the college just over a month ago to talk to staff and students. To say they were shocked is an understatement.
There seems to be a timeline - was there talk in December of a memo brought to Cabinet on the due diligence work going on, where there was agreement and unanimous support from Cabinet in terms of an integration? That was in December. Staff were actively encouraged then to continue working towards integration. Then, suddenly in February there seemed to be almost a turnaround on that and in May there was the announcement that there would be no integration, staff would be let go and students would be affected. There will be a teach-out period but there is nothing set in stone for students if they get sick or fail and have to repeat.
What do the witnesses think went wrong there? I cannot figure it out. All I know is it was positive, there was talk of integration and, suddenly, there was not. The Government said that it wanted to step in because jobs were about to be lost, yet even after it has stepped in, we are getting job loses.
Ms Yvonne McGrath:
I thank the Deputy for her question. We would love to tell her what exactly went wrong. Unfortunately, the staff and their trade union were only notified on 19 May after the signing of the memorandum of understanding. On the same afternoon, three press releases went out from Carlow College, South East Technological University, SETU, and the Department. All along, we had been under the illusion that there would be an integration. It had not been flagged to us that there were problems. We were aware to some degree that there were financial concerns, but at no point had it been flagged to any of the staff or their representatives that this would be a problem for integration. We are really in the catch-up phase of trying to examine what went on from engagements that seemed to go back to 2022 in relation to due diligence and the requests from Carlow College as to what it was seeking from this process.
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Did engagements start in 2017 or 2022?
Ms Yvonne McGrath:
Our understanding is that the initial request went in in 2017 when Carlow College could see how education was changing. However, it appears from the records that 2022 was when there was the first memorandum of understanding on funding, given that increased funding was provided at that time. Through 2022 to date, there seems to have been ongoing engagement around property, including lands. That the financial constraints would have an impact on the integration was absolutely not flagged until 19 May.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for sharing their opening statements with us in advance and for being here today. I am tied up with the timelines and the language that is used. That is what I am really curious about. Deputy McGettigan referred to what might have happened in 2017. My understanding is that there was a conversation between Carlow College, St. Patrick's and Trinity College Dublin. Was there a broader evolution of that within the Department whereby if there was going to be integration and amalgamation, it would look to keep that regional? That is why my understanding is that the natural partner of Carlow College would have been SETU in Carlow.
I am going to focus on the period from 2022 to today. I look back on what was said. In March 2022, it was called an "integration". In April 2022, it was called an "incorporation". Then in October, it was an "absorption". They all mean very different things. In February 2025, the Minister, Deputy Lawless, said on a visit to Carlow College that he fully supported the plan to absorb the college into SETU, but when the news came in May, there was not to be an incorporation. From the witnesses' perspective, when did it change from being a merger or an integration into being completely separate entities now?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Correct, yes. I am sorry to cut in on Ms McGrath, but my time is short. Could we hear from Dr. Heaney, please?
Dr. James Heaney:
The Deputy is exactly right in everything she is saying there except that, from 2017 - we have only found this out relatively recently ourselves - the college informed us that it had been engaging proactively with the Department of further and higher education. This is significant because the narrative that is being put out by the Minister, Deputy Lawless, is that the college came cap in hand to the Department in 2022 saying that it was in a desperate position and asking the Department to help it out. The Department tried to help out for a number of years but then the story is that it thought it could not keep pumping money into the institution. The Department knew from 2017 and was engaging proactively, according to Carlow College management, about the financial situation and the future of the college. Then, in 2022, the college did not come cap in hand to the Department. Rather, it came with an offer of the college itself, to gift the college to the State lock, stock and barrel, including all the buildings and all the lands on two key conditions. These were that it would continue as a college of the humanities and staff would be transferred across to SETU, which had just come into existence at the time, or to some other public higher level institution. That proceeded fine. The Department saw the sense in that and made funds available. It seems that the Minister is conflating the actual tuition payments that the college and the students received since 1996 with the free fees payment. That is not a support. That is a payment for the education of these students. However, other supports were put in place and everything was progressing along the lines. The three major institutions involved, namely, the Department, Carlow College and SETU, are all saying this is the way to go. We are being funded on the basis that this was interim funding towards integration, as it was being referred to at the time, with SETU. Now, things changed twice and it was not made clear to us as staff. First, SETU insisted on it having to come up with a business plan-----
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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We will have to move to the next speaker.
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Heaney.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I have been down to Carlow a number of times. I have heard many of the witnesses speaking and have listened to students. It just seems to be completely and utterly rotten what is going on here. People have a lack of understanding of what is going on. The picture is changing constantly. We have students who have been educated there who would not have tried had they been anywhere else. That is one of the most important points. We have a massive shortage of staff in the HSE, yet there are people being educated on those courses in Carlow College.
Regarding the timeline and changes, nobody was aware of what was going on. There was secrecy. The grounds of Carlow College are right in the heart of Carlow. We have heard figures of between €20 million and €90 million, and it just being handed over. Every book in the place and the whole lot is going. There are 87 staff members. There should be nothing about them without them. Also, staff knew that the college was under pressure, so did not take any increases in their wages. That is going to affect the redundancies. Where is that situation now? I leave it to the witnesses to comment.
Ms Yvonne McGrath:
Regarding the finance and the redundancy payments, that is true. Although the redundancy payments are above statutory, they are not much above it. They are also capped at two years' pay. We have 12 members of staff who will be impacted by that cap. If you are being impacted by that, you know that you have got long service.
On finances, it is our understanding that, from July 2022, Carlow College was advised to rationalise its cost base.
Unfortunately, there was no engagement with us on what that would look like. It just seemed that they were picking various pieces, one being was people's wages, which is the last resort. That is going to impact further impact on the redundancy terms.
Mr. Karl Byrne:
To put a bit of context on it, since 2016, there has been a process within higher education for the merger of institutions into larger entities. I refer, for example, to the TU model. DCU has taken over Mater Dei and St. Patrick's College in Drumcondra. St. Angela's was a private college funded by the nuns and has been taken over by Atlantic Technological University, ATU. We have been involved as a trade union in those discussions and engagements about how they would be incorporated, integrated or whatever. We have had those discussions about how it would happen. We were always up for the discussion and the negotiation in respect of people's terms and conditions of employment, courses and so on. We have not had the opportunity to have that engagement. That is really what we are here to tell the committee today. We did not have the opportunity. If we had known there was an issue, we could have dealt with it.
Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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On foot of another commitment, I must leave the meeting for a time. I nominate Senator Dee Ryan to take the Chair in my absence. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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This college is the second oldest third level institution in the country. It seems to have a unique character, with an emphasis on humanities and the arts. It has 70% SUSI recipients, 40% students with disabilities, 25% mature learners. What I am hearing from the staff - I would like clarity on this - is that because of political statements and because of what they were being told by the management of Carlow College, they were labouring under the illusion that they were on the road to integration with SETU and that the jobs and ethos of the college would be carried over into SETU. Staff got reassurances from the president as late as 18 December last to the effect that this was the road they were on. All of a sudden, the rug was pulled from under them and they were told that their jobs are gone and that the college is gone. They do not know how this has happened or what the future holds for them or the college. Is that a fair characterisation of the situation? Public money goes into this. Presumably, the Minister and the Department have view on this. Are the witnesses asking that they pause all of this and go back to what they thought was happening, namely the integration of their jobs and the college into SETU rather than this shocking announcement about closure?
Dr. James Heaney:
Absolutely. There are two things here. First, is the forensic analysis of how we got to this point. The other is what we are losing as a result of this decision. The forensic analysis clearly casts the college management, SETU and the Department in a very poor light. Everything seems to have changed on foot of a due diligence report from Mazars that was issued to SETU in the spring. That has not been released; definitely not to Carlow College. I do not know if the Department has it. That seems to have changed the whole context of it and nobody knows exactly why. As already stated, the original deal the college went to the Department with was that it could have the college for nothing if it could just continue as a college and with the staff on board. The objection the Department raised in that regard on 17 or 18 June last at the Committee of Public Accounts was that, unlike St. Angela's, Carlow College was carrying a debt and that the State cannot nationalise a private debt.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It has done that before anyway. It has no problem with doing that.
Dr. James Heaney:
The point is that the problem has been known about since 2017. The answer to the problem was integration with SETU. That whole proposition has been funded since 2022. All of a sudden, in 2026, it became a problem. We have the solution to the problem. The Government has paid over €6 million for the college. That would have gone a long way towards, if not completely, annihilating the debt. Why could the integration not continue?
Ms Yvonne McGrath:
We want to look forward towards integration and what that would look like, but, obviously, we have the collective issue to deal with currently. Even when the decision was made in relation to the closure of Carlow College, there was a discussion about who would do the two-year teach-out. That was agreed between Carlow College and SETU. Carlow College decided it would do the teach-out relating to legacy issues. For us, there should have been further consideration of how that would have aided and impacted staff. It might have been more beneficial for the students and staff to do their teach-out through SETU by transfer of undertakings.
Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I want to say from the outset that I think this is a shambles. There has been incredibly poor communication shown to staff and students of the college. There are serious concerns for what this means for the sector, workers' rights and students. A due diligence report was presented to the governing authority in February, yet staff were only made aware on the same day in May on which the public was made aware. This is no way to treat staff in any workplace, and certainly not in our further and higher education system. I would like to hear from SIPTU, which represents 70% of the workforce in the college, about what its representatives think needs to happen. What engagement has the college had with SIPTU in terms of meetings? Has it come to the table? Is SIPTU happy with the engagement it has had?
The college provides a particular, unique type of education in terms of humanities and psychology. I refer also to the fact that 70% of students are in receipt of a SUSI grant, 40% of them are disabled students and 25% are mature students. We are dealing with students who are from marginalised groups as well and we need to make sure they are accommodated. This is of concern in terms of how it will impact the sector as a whole and in respect of access to education. Can SIPTU give its view on the process and what it feels needs to happen now?
Ms Yvonne McGrath:
On the engagement piece, on 19 May staff were advised of the situation. It was 16 June when the Minister, Deputy Peter Burke was notified in relation to collective redundancies. The college insisted that a meaningful consultation could only occur after that date. We did have two meetings with them, but we requested a lot of information. We requested financial information and copies of the memorandum of understanding, none of which were provided. Some of that was requested verbally on an ad hoc basis. Our first meeting took place on 23 June. We requested financial information and have been promised it. We have been promised information on the accounts. We asked about the cost of the redundancy and the cost of the two-year teach-out. We were promised we would have that information but we still do not have it. Even in respect of the memorandum of understanding, although it has confidentiality, that was not released. When it was released, it went out onto the website. We have been making progress in trying to reduce the initial number of redundancies through a voluntary redundancy process. We have also tried to argue for the retention of staff for a little longer.
At the end of the day, all staff will be made redundant in two years, which makes for a very difficult environment to work in. I can also imagine it is not what the students bought into for their college experience.
Engagement is dragging and the information is slow to come.
Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the speakers here today. As someone who lives in Carlow, I see the knock-on effect of the jobs we are speaking about. It is important to highlight that we have dealt with three Ministers since 2017. First, we dealt with our Tánaiste, who was Minister for higher education at the time. Then, we dealt with Deputy O'Donovan, who was also at the Department of higher education, and now we are dealing with Deputy Lawless. We have gone through three Ministers in that space of time, which is important to know.
This is about the students and teachers here today. It is about clarification and getting the answers they are looking for. It is about looking at the issues that need to be sorted out with this integration. Like previous speakers said, this memorandum of understanding was signed by two governing bodies - Carlow College and SETU. There were always financial challenges in Carlow College in recent years, and there is no point in saying differently. The witnesses have said they were very much aware of that. We now need to make as much information as possible available to the staff and students about the two-year lead-in. We need to look at why this particular integration did not happen, but it is important the Department will be here today to talk about this. The Department and SETU will be the beneficiaries of what will be Carlow College.
It is important to say Carlow College is part of Carlow's history and what will be known as our cultural quarter. It was always going to be part of what we know as our Carlow College. However, it is also a gift to the people of Carlow, which is important. It is not just handing away something; this is a gift given from Carlow College to the people of Carlow. The people of Carlow will always have the ability to use the beautiful libraries and grounds.
We need to get more clarification on this. The witnesses are right; there are questions that have to be answered. We need consultation with the witnesses, Carlow College and SETU going forward. I will say again that all of us here are very mindful of the staff and teachers who have done an absolutely marvellous job over the years. That is not in question; they excel at what they do. Unfortunately, we need to get more information.
Mr. Karl Byrne:
Briefly on that, coming back to several of the questions, we are not getting integration at this moment in time. There will be a closure of the college, with 87 people losing their jobs. Let us be clear on what is actually happening. Whatever about teach outs and all that stuff around legacy, at the end of the day, it is the closure of the college.
Ideally, there would be a way for the Department to look at the integration, as we would have seen in St. Angela's and St. Pat's, which is why I brought them up.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It should happen.
Mr. Karl Byrne:
That should have happened, and we were led to believe that was the case. The reality of the situation and the reason we are having to answer these questions, is we have to deal with the collective redundancy situation because that is the legal situation for 87 people now. It would be great to hear if there were other options relating to that, but those other options have to come from the Department and SETU.
Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I just want to clarify it would be important for courses to work with SETU, but again, I do not know; we need to talk about that.
The other thing is it is important to say the doors will not be closing on Carlow College. As Mr. Byrne said, a chapter in its life has changed, but it is now about how we work with our staff to ensure they are looked after, whether that is through extra or new courses in SETU that work with Carlow College. We all need to work together on this and find solutions.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank everyone for being here today and I am very sorry to hear of the pain the witnesses are experiencing. I am trying to understand why and how this happened. From what I am hearing, it is the same for everyone present.
I just looked at the CAO website and saw a notice that, basically, all the courses have been withdrawn. However, there are people who are already in courses, and from what I am hearing and what I understand from my colleague, Senator Stephenson, who has been supporting the college, there are very vulnerable students in that college. It seems to me people thought they would just go away and would not kick up a fight, and that maybe the people who teach and support them would not kick up a fight. It is the height of disrespect. I am flabbergasted that we are in a situation in 2026 where we are basically rubbing away a college that has such a history and support for vulnerable students. It is absolutely unacceptable.
The Social Democrats very firmly support the staff and students; this is absolutely not right. The statutory redundancy staff will get is slightly above average but is capped at two years, when there are people who have been there for many years. This is a workers' rights situation as well as a learners' rights situation. The tension here just now when the Minister of State spoke is because it should not be too late. Witnesses should not be coming in here at this stage and having to fight for that.
I have not left them much time to speak but I want to express the support we have for the staff. I am dismayed at how workers have been treated, as well as how vulnerable students have been treated. I am still at a loss as to how this has happened. I know we do not have enough time and there is a second session, but I thank the witnesses for being here. I am very sorry to hear about what they are going through.
Dr. Sarah Otten:
I have been a lecturer in Carlow College for 23 years and I have been the SIPTU shop steward for ten of those years. I really like my job. Like my colleagues, I enjoy teaching and am committed to the ethos of the college, which is to serve a particular population and to teach well. However, I am also interested in the future of the college. I have sat on programme boards and the management board. I thought there was an open conversation happening and that I understood where we were all moving towards. That is why I was so shocked on 19 May, not just as a lecturer but as somebody who was also trying to form the future of that college and ensure it would continue on.
I really do not understand why I was not called in at the point when this process of integration moved from that to redundancy. I know that place well. I have given 23 years of my life to it. I want it to do well, go forward and flourish. Surely, I might have some ideas as to how that could happen. I really do not understand why the union was not called in as soon as the word "redundancy" was mentioned at all.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Otten for that. Does Dr. Heaney want to join the conversation?
Dr. James Heaney:
There are loads of things I want to say, but one of the reasons I am here is because so many staff, graduates and friends of the college have told me this decision has to be looked at. We have talked a lot about how we got here and all the rest of it, and that it is a complete travesty.
However, this session has been called to discuss the future of Carlow College. The way I was thinking of it this morning was the committee is like our VAR. We are in extra time right now and I know the committee cannot call for a change in decision or whatever but it can call for it to be reviewed. This needs to be reviewed, not just because of our jobs and the current students, but also because of what Carlow College means to south Leinster. It has been there since 1782 and has seen a huge amount of history, with people like James Fintan Lalor being educated there, as well as John O'Leary, the great mentor of W.B. Yeats, and, more recently, artists like Bridget Flannery.
In 1996, we reinvented ourselves as a college of the liberal arts. We went from a position where women were not allowed through the gates - because it was primarily a seminary - unless they were going to clean and cook, to most of our students now being female. Most of our staff are female. It has been a fantastic story since 1996. It was making money when it had about 800 or 900 students, or not losing money. This is just a short blip in the history of the college. With a little bit of funding and imaginative thinking, there is no question that this fantastic educational resource for the whole of south Leinster and Ireland could be rescued.
We do not just want to talk about redundancies now; we want the decision revisited. We are appealing to the committee, as our VAR, on that.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Heaney.
We are actually going to have a second round. It will be very tight, with two minutes each.
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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As Dr. Heaney said, we need to consider this in the future. A formal joint programme was even established to do so. I would question what exactly the Minister of State, Deputy Murnane O'Connor, knew and when, because she would have been involved in many things. Why was the information not fed back into what is happening here today? A clear message needs to go out when the Department comes before the committee next that we need to stop this right now, where it is.
Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Just for the record, I certainly did not do what has been implied. I was not on the governing body of Carlow College or SETU when the memorandum of understanding was signed. Like previous speakers here, I note that there was always talk of integration. Absolutely, I was on the governing body for a few years but came off it then, so the Deputy needs to correct what she has put on the record.
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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A clear message needs to go out from this committee that this needs to be stopped and revisited. Carlow College and the jobs need to be saved, and students need to be protected.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Does the Deputy want to direct her comments to anyone? We will keep our questioning to the witnesses. Does the Deputy want to give anyone time to respond?
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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They probably just agree with it.
Ms Yvonne McGrath:
The only thing I want to say in relation to the future is that the committee needs to be aware that there are some courses and modules that are not currently delivered in SETU Carlow and Waterford. There are opportunities in particular modules, such as philosophy. Philosophy is not delivered as a course. It is just delivered in particular modules in particular courses. There will actually be a loss in course delivery because there is not like-for-like provision in relation to what is planned.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am going back to the technical terms as well because the devil is in the detail. I accept Dr. Heaney's point that when we are talking about the timelines, we are talking about how we got to this position. We are talking about integration, but integration is something that usually happens after either a merger or an amalgamation. I am still at pains to understand what happened and why it changed from being a merger. I do not know whether it was ever going to be an amalgamation because, for it to be an amalgamation, a whole new entity would have to be created. I do not believe that was going to happen, or that it was the desire either.
The witnesses referred to the financial impact. I know from one of the opening statements that, certainly when the Mazars report came out, there was a shift, as Dr. Heaney mentioned. Was it ever considered, in relation to the financial risk or cost, that Carlow College would be run as part of a greater institution? The cost of running Carlow College as it exists, with 600 or 700 students, includes the entire costs of administration and maintenance. Those costs are not shared with any other entity. Were Carlow College to be integrated into SETU, the administrative and general running costs would be divided across the larger institution. From the witnesses' perspective, when they had their conversations with Carlow College, was that part of them? The witnesses said that they did not get access to or sight of the report.
My follow-up question is on why the unions were not called in sooner when redundancies were flagged. Was the onus on the management of Carlow College, or was it on SETU or the Department? I am sorry but I am going over time.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has gone over time. What I will do is move on to the next person and then hear answers, if that is okay.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I just want to talk a little about what engagement the witnesses had with the Minister, Deputy James Lawless. Integration was spoken about, then it was taken off the table completely and it came down to redundancies. What engagement or understanding did the witnesses have from the Minister? When was their first engagement with him? Was it literally when they were told on 19 May?
Dr. James Heaney:
The Minister came down to the college a couple of times, but he never met the staff. The staff had no direct engagement with him. Throughout the whole process of the integration, or since 2022, I asked management a number of times why there were no staff representatives on the integration committee specifically representing the staff perspective. The only answer I was given was that management was looking after the interests of staff. We have seen how well that turned out. There was as little communication as possible around this whole narrative throughout the four or five years of it.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Heaney. Does anyone else wish to respond? Would anyone like to address Deputy Callaghan's questions?
Ms Yvonne McGrath:
On Deputy Callaghan's question about whose responsibility it was to engage with the trade unions, it would have been Carlow College's. We have a collective agreement with it regarding engagement on all terms and conditions of employment, and you cannot get anything bigger than the matter of redundancy. Any time staff representatives were asking about the process, they were told very little or that things were on track. Even since notice was given to staff and we wrote to those concerned, the college has been very slow in providing any information of a meaningful nature that we can use.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I have a quick follow-up question. From SIPTU's perspective and its experience of the integration of St. Angela's and St. Patrick's, would it be normal for staff members to be represented on an integration committee? Did that happen on the occasions in question?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Will Dr. Heaney state when the integration committee was established?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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It was up and running for four years and there were no staff members appointed to it.
Dr. James Heaney:
There were staff members on it – two, I think – but they were not on it as staff representatives. They were part of what was referred to as a strategic integration team. There was nobody coming back to the staff saying how things were working out or looking for ideas or suggestions. There was no communication with staff, even though there was a lecturer-----
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Heaney was raising that.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is disgraceful how the staff, students and college, which is of historic importance, have been treated. The fact that James Fintan Lalor went there speaks volumes. He was one of our most important revolutionaries. What has happened is just shocking, to be honest. The Minister of State needs to answer questions. Do the witnesses agree with me? People were led to believe there would be integration, that the jobs would move over to SETU and that the ethos of the college would be moved over. The rug was then pulled from under their feet without any proper consultation. Even now, those concerned do not have any explanation. It is absolutely disgraceful.
Our committee should recommend that this decision be paused and re-examined. I see no reason that the original proposal - that Carlow College would be integrated into SETU, with the jobs and ethos of the college maintained - should not be kept to. It is quite within the committee's power. Is that something the witnesses would like to see?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. We are going to move on.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Do we not have time for an answer?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, of course. I apologise.
Dr. James Heaney:
There are so many questions about this and so much murkiness. The thing we normally do in such circumstances is say we should follow the money and ask who has benefited from what has occurred. SETU has benefited from it.
They have this fantastic 17 acre campus in the centre of town to do with what they wish. Basically, there are no commitments around it. The college has benefited to some extent. They have got over €6 million for it. The only people who are suffering on account of it are the staff, the students and the institution itself - the people who cannot really speak and do not have a voice. It is a travesty.
There is only one way that this decision to close down the college makes any sense and that is if, as an educationalists or a politician, one thinks we have no need for humanities education any more. Is that where we are at, at a time when we need it more than ever when we look at what is going on in the country and around the world?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Absolutely.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Heaney.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I am just trying to get to everyone in the interests of fairness.
Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses. I am sorry for missing their opening statements.
I concur with what other people have said. The sheer unfairness with which staff and students have been treated is mind-boggling. It bears no reason. We have spoken previously about psychology in social work and how we need psychologists and social workers in Ireland - courses which are Coru-accredited at Carlow College and not Coru-accredited at SETU. There is a complete contradiction, even in policy, that we are seeing with this buy-out.
I wish to express my empathy and solidarity with the staff and students who genuinely believe in a merger - a sincere merger where there would be a transfer of employment opportunity for staff - and there has been no commitment to that.
It is unfair the way staff have been treated in terms of receiving their redundancy at 8 p.m. in the middle of a work week, for example. It is no way to treat staff. Staff were working on courses. They were developing courses for the new academic year with SETU, giving over their academic intellectual property, IP, to SETU, because they believed that there was a job for them in the next academic year. It is shocking.
It will have a major impact on the learning opportunities. As there will be no history course in the south-east any more, we will not be able to learn history in the south-east.
Students relied on the affordability of Carlow College. I have spoken to so many students, for example, students with disabilities who cannot travel on the train, who are now locked out of education in their local area and, therefore, locked out of education altogether. It is heartbreaking. I want to express my solidarity with the witnesses and thank them so much for coming in and speaking to it.
Mr. Karl Byrne:
I appreciate the comments that have been made across the committee in relation to it but there are a couple of things I want to clearly state. We are led to believe, having met with the Minister and having sought information from the Department, that Carlow College was told to hold town hall meetings with staff earlier this year. That did not happen. That was at least one point where the Department told Carlow College to engage with staff and to engage with people to get the information on the table. If that had happened, you would have then had a process that could have looked at - prior to any signing of any memorandum of understanding, MOU, or any process - resolving or dealing with this issue. That not happening, and people being allowed to think that they were continuing on as things were going, is the big problem we see with this process. Obviously, there was a change. Everyone has said that at some point in the timeline there was a change to the view that this was not going to work out and we were going from this to that. For the Department and the Ministers to say that they told Carlow College to engage with us, told it to engage with staff and hold town halls and that not to happen is really a problem because that allowed people to continue on their way until May thinking everything would be okay on the night. There was this idea that there would be divine intervention and everything would be okay on the night when it was clearly known months in advance that this was not going to happen.
Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I want to state on the record the support of the Labour Party for the staff and the students at the college. This is a massive issue in terms of workers' rights. I believe it is not just miscommunication that we are talking about here. I believe there is active secrecy involved in this and the withholding of information as well. We are clear that we are still waiting on information. I believe we need to bring all of the information to light, and pause this and review it when we have all of that information. There has been a lot of passing from pillar to post as well in relation to this, perhaps from the college blaming the Department and then the Department blaming the college. It is the staff and the students, primarily, who are suffering here.
We are in a cost-of-living crisis for students. The cost of going to college is astronomical. We have a student housing crisis and this will further displace students. Where will they live when they go to college? As Senator Stephenson said, 40% of the students in Carlow College have disabilities. Where will they go now? How will they be able to access education?
This cannot be a precedent that is set here. We need to not only learn from this, but make it solvable for staff as best as possible in terms of remuneration available to them. Clearly, staff have given so much of their expertise. We cannot be wasting that.
We also need to look at academic choice and choice of courses. It is such a shame that we may potentially be losing so many humanities and specialised courses as options for people when we know, in the world of artificial intelligence, AI, and what is happening in the world, that we need to invest in the humanities. As a humanities graduate myself, I think it is very important that we do that.
Ms Yvonne McGrath:
I will going back to the timeline piece. So that the committee will be aware, one of the reasons we were told this is being pushed through is because of the financial situation of Carlow College. Its accounts year end is the end of June. We were told that if it continued on that basis, it would be reckless trading. That is seemingly the basis for this all to be pushed through, in relation to the money that is being provided for the teach out, to cover the operational costs and the redundancy. It is what removes that risk in relation to reckless trading. The significance of the timing is not lost on us. It flagged in 2017 that there were financial difficulties. In 2022, there was due diligence. Then in 2026, the year when all the reserves ran out, suddenly the college has to close.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms McGrath.
Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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What has been said is so important, both on how we get the information out there and how we get factual information and communication going forward.
Going back to the Minister's visit, while the Minister will visit a private college, which Carlow College is, a private college is separate from a technological university such as SETU. When he visited, it was a private college.
Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is still a private college.
The second point is we need to look at this. We need to look at the staff. The main thing for me is to get everybody working together. The Department is going to have to sit down with this. I can assure the witnesses that the Minister, Deputy Lawless, within the south east, called meetings. He did virtual meetings with the TDs and Senators to fill them in with information that he was working with through his Department. However, it is important, as was said. The witnesses are right that it happened very quickly in the end. There is no question about that.
We need to sit down with SETU. We need to sit down with the Department. We need to work out a plan on this. We have to look after our students and staff.
The other thing I will say is that Carlow College wanted this integration. It wanted it but, as the witnesses are aware, its doors would have been closed if it did not go on what was being put to it as well. There is a lot of balance in here.
The other thing is that factual information needs to go out. I compliment the witnesses on their work and on what they are doing for the staff and for the students. We are very proud of Carlow College. I know the staff and I know the students. I compliment the witnesses on the work they have done and say, "Well done." It has not been easy for any of them.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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In the interest of time, I will move on to the next speaker and then come for a response.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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The conversation about humanities is interesting. Recently, in the Dáil, we were discussing third level institutions and the challenges now for an industry-led approach to any sort of research that is going on at PhD level or whatever, and that being pushed so that industry would be coming in to - I do not want to use the word "infect" but that is the only word that is coming to mind - target what is being taught in third level.
For me, as I have said several times, education is about having a love of learning and exploring things. When people have left school and have found it difficult and challenging to go to third level, they need to have time to breathe and do things, and if someone has a disability, that is even more important. I am very concerned that the push against humanities has come up in different aspects. This is another example of that. Like Senator Harmon, I am also a graduate of humanities. My doctorate is also in education, which is also humanities. I feel very strongly that as soon as we start pushing that out and our third level institutions become - I am going to say it again - infected by industry, we lose all autonomy over how we are able to educate people and how people are able to learn. I am concerned by the thread of the conversation today. I hope that is not something that has happened here because these are vulnerable students and this is the humanities. Whatever was in that report has now led to a massive U-turn and huge challenges for the witnesses.
Dr. James Heaney:
I totally agree with the Deputy. In addition, part of the great opportunity of the integration would be that Carlow College, as a college of the humanities, can bring something to SETU that it does not have. Our courses on philosophy, history, literature and theology are absolutely vital in the discussions around data centres, wars and conflicts in Gaza, Ukraine and elsewhere, poverty and inequality. SETU does not deal with those kinds of issues. We are very often dealing more with the metaphysics of it, and normally in historical and cultural contexts. There is so much we could bring to that institution, which we have been doing for 240 years. Everybody is applauding us.
I have to say to the Minister of State, Deputy Murnane O'Connor, that it is a little bit difficult to listen to her comments here when she has been at the helm of this integration process for the last four years or so and had access to all the information------
Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No, I did not.
Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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That has nothing to do with me. That is up to-----
Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No-----
Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No, I am sorry, that is up to Carlow College, working with the Department. I did not.
Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I did not.
Dr. James Heaney:
The point of this meeting is that it is about the future of Carlow College. More important than the students, and our jobs even, as important as those are, is that this historic institution, which is still producing the goods in the humanities, is not thrown in the dustbin for the sake of a few million bucks. The committee could get half a dozen creatively minded people into this room and I guarantee members that in six months' time, they would have a plan for Carlow College to make it viable financially.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Heaney.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Heaney. The point is very well made.
Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Heaney does not mention the challenges, or the money that has gone in over the last few years. What he has said about that has been absolutely unfactual.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone very much. That concludes this part of the meeting. On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for attending and for engaging with members. We will suspend briefly to allow the witnesses to depart before moving to our second session. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone. The witnesses are very welcome. I remind all those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are in silent mode or switched off.
As witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded that for this session, each member will have four minutes for his or her engagement with witnesses.
One of the second oldest higher level education institutions in the country with a unique ethos focusing on the humanities, arts and social sciences, catering to people who are mostly on SUSI grants, people with disabilities, marginal groups and so on is being shut down, when the staff believed that it was going to be retained and integrated into SETU. I do not understand why that decision was made. More importantly, the staff do not understand why that decision was made and why their jobs, and the ethos, could not be retained. Can anybody explain to me who made that decision and why that decision was made? Can it be rescinded? There does not seem to be any good reason for it to have been made. Why were the staff treated so badly and told at the last minute, when they had been led to believe previously that they were going to be integrated into SETU and the ethos of the college and their jobs would be retained? Will anybody enlighten us?
Fr. Conn Ó Maoldhomhnaigh:
We worked all the time, night and day, to achieve integration. Our understanding of integration was that the staff, students and our programmes would be integrated and transferred into SETU. I have explained about the 9 March meeting. Regarding the announcement to staff, things were coming to some kind of clarity at the end of April. That was a time when our students were beginning their studies for their exams. The exams started in early May and carried on until 15 May. I formed a judgment that it would be irresponsible of me to put students' health and well-being at risk. Their examinations and the safe delivery of examinations is the number one priority for all HEIs. On that basis, while I would much rather have been chatting and talking to staff earlier, things were not clear and did not become clear until the end of April into early May. The exams came along and finished on 15 May. The first opportunity was to address staff on 19 May. I would rather that was different, but I was conscious of the students and their well-being at exam time which is a very difficult time for students.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is extremely unfair on staff to have led them along in the illusion that they were going to be integrated in SETU and were going to keep their jobs, but then tell them they did not have their jobs. It is still not clear to me from that. That was bad treatment of the staff. When did Fr. Ó Maoldhomhnaigh decide or who decided exactly that the integration was not happening and why?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am struggling to understand who did then. Could the witnesses speculate as to who made the decision?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The mystery of the-----
Mr. Brian Barry:
-----2018 has been, as the Deputy said, the maintenance of a college that has delivered student welfare and courses in social care and psychology and has been an arts and humanities liberal college. That is what we have supported all the way through. There has never been a falter in our position on that ever.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Mr. Barry would still like that to happen, presumably.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Will the Department explain what happened?
Mr. Keith Moynes:
The Department has always been open and not directive about what the opportunity was for Carlow College. We have seen integration of private institutions into public institutions in other parts of the higher education sector. We were open to that. The one thing that we have been always clear about is that it had to be a financially sustainable proposition. That has been communicated clearly and consistently over the years. If we take the example of St. Angela's, it had a surplus and a strong balance sheet. That is what enabled the State to take on that institution. While we always have been open to it, we have always been equally clear that the State would not be able to deal with the situation where a public institution would effectively take over an institution in deficit.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Moynes. I am going to jump in next and ask a couple of follow-on questions. Will Mr. Barry explain to us about the discussions that were going on from March until the end of April? How many meetings were there over that period?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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For clarity, the meetings between Carlow College and SETU were to examine integration and displacement and what potentially could be done-----
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Did Carlow College present a report to the Department in April?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Were there recommendations for integration of some courses?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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We have very little time. I ask Professor Campbell to be brief. Were there some courses that had been identified as suitable for integration?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Was the movement across and the integration of some of those courses into SETU deemed not possible?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I am hearing that SETU did not identify any courses that could possibly have been moved across.
Regarding the information that was brought to the Department, what was the next step in the process of communication? How did this become a recommendation to the Minister? What level of review and analysis of that information was there after that?
Mr. Keith Moynes:
The important thing here is to understand that these are autonomous institutions. Carlow College is a private autonomous institution. At the meeting on 20 April, we were advised that the view of the two colleges was that the teach-out was what was being recommended within the financial parameters that were available. That is the basis on which we worked. It was that-----
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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This was brought to the Department as a recommendation from those discussions. That was taken to-----
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Did that information go to the president? Was the governing authority informed of that recommendation in advance of the college speaking to the Department?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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They would all have been made aware.
Mr. Brian Barry:
Yes. It is an asset that has been transferred. There is value to what it is. Carlow College has no debt at this stage. We did run a deficit. There is no doubt about that. We have made that public knowledge for many years now. There is nothing new about that, but there was no debt related to Carlow College. From the report by Professor Tom Collins in 2010, it was through his suggestion that the campus, which is 17 acres in the centre of Carlow College along with the buildings, would be offered to the State at the time as the incentive for integration. We offered it to the State. As the situation is, that cannot be a vehicle. SETU as an institution is the vehicle for doing that. At all stages, we have been looking to get this across. In doing so, we have offered an asset in return for that.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I wish Fr. Ó Maoldhomhnaigh to clarify. I heard the point he made that it was with consideration to the students and staff that a decision was reached not to share the information with the college community until such time as exams had concluded. Who was involved in making that decision?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Was the governing-----
Fr. Conn Ó Maoldhomhnaigh:
The running of the college is left to me and the senior management team. It was our consideration that we would have to be mindful of the students. Since the announcement on 19 May, I have met at least 70 students who had written to me or had come to the college to meet me. They all appreciated that we did that. They said it would have been a very difficult and stressful time for them, acknowledging also that it was not easy on our staff.
Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I had a public meeting online in relation to this with staff, students and concerned people living in the area. Some of the issues identified were the impact on staff, students and academic choice, access to college, students with disabilities, accommodation, the economic impact on the region and culture. This is a huge issue of public interest. It is a matter of public funds as well because there are public funds involved in this. This is an issue of public interest and public money.
I wish to ask Professor Campbell a question. When did the conversation change from a merger to what we have now and the situation today? Did SETU block integration? If so, why?
What information has the college provided to the trade union SIPTU to date, and what information has SIPTU requested that it is still waiting for? SIPTU represents 70% of the workers in the college. Are the representatives of the college satisfied they have engaged enough with the union or are they withholding information from the union? Have they withheld any information from SIPTU?
Regarding decisions made along the way, we have been given lots of different dates and timelines. Have all of the minutes of those meetings been published and was there student and staff representation throughout the process?
Dr. Joe Collins:
I thank Senator Harmon. I will answer the first question, which was asked of Professor Campbell. SETU did not begin with a predetermined outcome. Following the approach from Carlow College, we committed, through the strategic plan, to undertake a comprehensive due diligence. That process identified academic, financial, governance, HR and property matters, as well as a number of significant considerations and risks that were associated with any potential future arrangement. The question before SETU was not simply whether integration was possible, but what framework best protected learners while ensuring institutional stability, sustainability and appropriate governance. The framework ultimately agreed was the outcome of that process, and it was signed on 19 May.
Fr. Conn Ó Maoldhomhnaigh:
Our students and staff are a very important part of our consideration throughout the work we have been doing, and they have been doing, to try to achieve integration. The Senator asked about information being provided. Those who know me will know I am not a person who holds back information or keeps information from people. I will ask my colleague, Dr. Eric Derr, to address that last point.
Laura Harmon (Labour)
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Is Fr. Ó Maoldhomhnaigh saying he did not withhold any information when it was requested?
Dr. Eric Derr:
We have been engaging with SIPTU since the announcement. It has not always been easy but we have given all information verbally to SIPTU. We are not withholding anything. I can go through the list, which is being processed through legals, for example, breakdown for teaching out, including student numbers, budgets, lists of modules, current modules, academic resourcing and financial resourcing. There was a delay on financial accounts because my colleague, Mr. Barry, was away for three weeks with that information but, again, it is being sent. There is no withholding on our part.
Laura Harmon (Labour)
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Dr. Derr indicated the information was provided verbally. Will the college follow that up in written format as well?
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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The more I hear, the more annoyed and frustrated I am getting. Fr. Ó Maoldhomhnaigh says one minute he is not the type of person to withhold information but he withheld valuable information from staff about their jobs. I know he says he had reasons for doing so, but the staff should have been told. I just do not get why they were not told this.
A memo was presented to Cabinet in December 2025. Why was that presented before SETU had completed its due diligence process? That then led to people thinking the integration was still happening. Why was that presented to Cabinet?
What was in the SETU report presented to its board in February that made the process unravel? We see in the timeline that this was when it all unravelled. Did the SETU report change the Government objectives in terms of integration? That staff and students were still not told until May is absolutely ridiculous. Fr. Ó Maoldhomhnaigh said he is not the type of person to withhold information, but he did. I am sorry.
Fr. Conn Ó Maoldhomhnaigh:
The news of the Cabinet approval for integration into SETU heartened us. We were delighted at that stage. We thought it was a good move. This was something that would push the process forward so our staff, students and programmes could be integrated into SETU. That was in December 2025. That was followed up by a letter to me from an Tánaiste saying we had the Cabinet approval and that we can push this on and move on with it. We took heart from that. We thought a Cabinet decision meant something and that others would take direction from the Cabinet decision and would move on in that way.
I can only say I wish I could have been able to speak with the staff sooner in a way I would have preferred, but I was mindful of our students and their exams coming up, with prep week and the exams themselves. Having any kind of disruption for them at that time would not have been good. I will take the hit from what Deputy McGettigan said about the consultation with staff. I am very aware. It was one of the blackest days of my life, 19 May, when I made the announcement that there would essentially be no integration, that there would be a phased redundancy for staff and that our current students would be involved in a two-year teach-out in the college they chose to study in. On the Mazars report, Professor Campbell might be best placed to answer that.
Professor Veronica Campbell:
I had not seen the memo that went to Cabinet late in 2025 but I can say that the full detailed report of the due diligence went to the governing body of SETU in February. That was a comprehensive report, as one would expect with due diligence. It covered a number of analyses. Mazars had worked with information coming from Carlow College to prepare that information going forward to our governing body. There were some concerns within the due diligence analysis. It was not until that detailed report in its final form had been considered by our governing body that we were able to work through the next steps, which led to the memorandum of understanding and-----
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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When Professor Campbell talks about terms, if we look at the way the institutes of technologies were merged, their funding was slashed before this happened, so they were not viable. We can say that things were not viable, but that worked and it happened. They are now in place. The Government made a massive mistake bringing this memo to Cabinet first and then not looking at the due diligence and continuing with the process.
Mr. Keith Moynes:
There is an important clarification to be made here. I have to be careful because there is a constitutional requirement for Cabinet confidentiality. The Minister brought an update on process in December 2025. There was no decision about amalgamation. It was a process update indicating to the Government that there was a due diligence process under way. It was a memo for decision.
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Was it not a memo saying that there was clear agreement within the Cabinet? I think we can all agree that is what it was.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Without sight of the memo we cannot agree, actually. Just to clarify, it was not a request for approval; it was an update.
Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone for coming. My first questions are to SETU. What options were considered before concluding that existing staff would not transfer? What criteria were used for this? For example, what was considered, given the experience and expertise of existing staff in Carlow College? I spoke to Dr. Campbell about this. I was very disappointed. When this memorandum of understanding came out, why did SETU conclude that a widespread staff transfer would not form part of the integration? For the last few years, we all were of a mind that the excellent staff in Carlow College would go across through the integration.
My personal point of view is that there was not a willingness there and the staff have been totally let down. They have so much to offer. I did speak to Dr. Campbell recently. We had a meeting. I have met with Dr. Collins. There is nobody I have not talked to about this because I understand how the staff were affected. I live in Carlow and was born and bred there, so I see the knock-on effect.
I ask SETU to come back to me on that but I will first ask some questions of the Department because its role was not what I would have expected. How did the Department arrive at its valuation of the campus? It does not make sense. We are talking about one of the most beautiful buildings in the country, with 17 acres around it, and the Department has come up with a figure I cannot understand.
Other than free fees, Carlow College is not eligible for any funding, for example, core funding. Why was there no funding available for psychology courses at Carlow College when the programme is not available at the SETU campus? Students in social care will not be allowed to finish their level 8 add-on in the 2027-28 academic year. What is the logic of that?
There were challenges with the Department. I can say this on the record and I said it to the Minister. I worked with three different Ministers on this. I can say this, being from Carlow, that the integration was always something we looked for. Then there were the challenges of the due diligence and the memorandum of understanding, which happened really quickly in the end. We knew there were financial issues there. The Department needs to clear this up for me. I was a Member of the Oireachtas when the south-east colleges integrated to become SETU. We all know Waterford Institute of Technology was in financial difficulties. When it came to Carlow College it did not make sense that the Department focused on this. That is how we ended up where we are today. SETU, the Department and Carlow College need to sit down together. There needs to be communication with the staff and everybody needs to know what is happening. All of us are asking questions because we do not want the gates of Carlow College to close. We know that was being looked at. The Department has as good as said it. The 87 staff are tormented. They have mortgages.
We know Carlow College is brilliant. I spent half my life in Carlow College, so I know it is a gift and I know what it offers to the people of Carlow. From my point of view, there was very little communication from SETU and there was only a little bit more communication from Carlow College. As for the Department, we need to do a lot more, as I have said to the Minister, Deputy Lawless. The Minister is very committed to this but we need answers today. Communication has been a huge issue. The Department, SETU, and Carlow College need to sit down and we need to get this sorted. What is happening is not good.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister of State. In the interest of time, we will move on to Senator Stephenson before asking the witnesses to respond to those questions.
Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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I am a bit surprised to hear that from the Minster of State because I thought the Government was cheering on this closure, effectively, of Carlow College. It surprises me to hear that that is not the case.
It is clear that it was SETU that made the decision based on the risk report done by a highly expensive consultancy. Did the Department pay for those consultants to do the review on the merger or were they paid for by SETU directly?
Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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Down the line, therefore, the Department effectively funded the cost of that. Do we have access to that risk report by the consultancy firm that came down to review the merger? Do we have that report? Can we get it please?
Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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I think that would be helpful because it feels as if the risks that were identified in the report stopped the merger. Carlow College wanted a sincere and genuine merger, as did the Department, and SETU wanted that too until it got that report. It would be helpful for us to have eyes on that to understand what was identified within the report that made it impossible to go forward with a merger.
Everyone has talked about the need to protect learners, including the Department, Carlow College and SETU. We are not protecting learners. We have heard before that psychology and social work will be stripped out of the area. There are learners in Carlow College on social work courses, as the Minister of State mentioned, who need a fourth year to qualify. They will be left without the ability to get jobs. They have not been protected.
On the decision to withhold the information, people were applying for CAO courses in the belief that they would start in Carlow College in September and they found out in May that they would not. That stopped mature students from applying for new places. There are people who quit their jobs in order to go back to education later in life and are now locked out of education for at least another year, with no employment. That is the situation we are in, and it really is horrendous. The students who believed they were starting in September include students with disabilities who cannot get trains anywhere else. Protecting learners during the exams is fine but what has been done has undermined their autonomy and decision-making.
I am a bit confused as why the transfer of undertakings and protection of employment, TUPE, is not possible. I do not know if Mr. Moynes or Ms Hope from the Department were before the Committee of Public Accounts. It might have been colleagues of theirs. The committee heard that the Department did not see any reason that a direct transfer of staff would not be possible. It also heard that the ambition was to protect students and strengthen higher education. Obviously, that is not going to happen under the current process. Would that transfer be possible so that we protect staff?
We had staff in Carlow College who were co-developing courses with SETU. They were sharing their academic intellectual property with SETU under the proviso that they would be delivering those courses come September. They developed these courses and their knowledge is now with SETU. That was the agreement that was made. It is devastating for those staff that they developed courses that they will not be delivering.
I ask the officials to comment on the point I made about a TUPE.
Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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Did that decision not to transfer come from SETU?
Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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SETU chose not to take on the staff. It was its decision.
Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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The staff.
Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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It was a joint agreement and the Department had no feelings either way on the decision. It was a joint agreement between Carlow College and SETU not to transfer staff over, and transfer the courses with it.
Professor Veronica Campbell:
It was agreed not to transfer the students or the staff. That is clearly outlined in the framework.
The Senator voiced a concern about stripping psychology and social care out of the region. That is not the case. SETU provides a Psychological Society of Ireland-accredited psychology degree. We have social care programmes across our three campuses, including in Carlow, and we have recently applied-----
Patricia Stephenson (Social Democrats)
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Are they CORU accredited?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for interrupting but I am keeping an eye on the time. I let the witnesses run into my time, but I will cut my contribution shorter.
I thank the witnesses for their engagement. It sounds like things were getting quite pressurised back in March, April and May around both campuses and the discussions were coming to a head. It sounds as though, over a period of time from March until April, it was becoming evident that there was not going to be a common landing ground that would have been set out to achieve integration of particular courses, where possible, and minimise any redundancies. Would that be fair to say?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Fr. Ó Maoldhomhnaigh mentioned that he informed the staff at the earliest opportunity and he gave us his reasons for leaving it until the date in May. Has he ever been involved in a redundancy process in the past?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Does he have any experience of engaging with workers in a situation where they are being made redundant?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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It would be normal practice to open a consultation first and not simply arrive at a redundancy decision and inform people they are being made redundant. It would be normal practice, where the painful decision of redundancy arises, to engage with the workers who will be potentially impacted and ask for their views and opinions on how redundancy might be avoided. Did Fr. Ó Maoldhomhnaigh seek any legal advice on delivering this information to the staff?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the HR impacts and HR responsibilities?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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The good practice would be the consultation period and that did not happen.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I have a follow-up question. I note from the opening statement that reference was made to financial considerations and running out of money at the end of June, or some words that effect. Will the witnesses clarify what was happening there.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Were cash-flow considerations coming to the fore?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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The college was really feeling under pressure due to cash flow. Did it alert the Department to those concerns?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Was Mr. Barry disappointed when the college arrived at the final conclusion? Was there disappointment on the Carlow College side?
Mr. Brian Barry:
From the perspective of where we were at that point, in order to continue operations for the following two years the scenarios available to us were all staff being made redundant immediately or by the end of September, or alternatively a transfer into SETU, which obviously was not happening.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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The college was not achieving its objective.
Mr. Brian Barry:
We were not achieving our objective but our objective changed at that point. Our objective at that stage was to look after the students in our courses and the staff as much we could, keep them employed and potentially keep them in a situation where there may be some opportunity in the future for it to-----
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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At what point was that change identified?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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My point is that it is not very meaningful if the decision has already been taken. We have time for another round of two minutes each.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I will go back over the questions I asked as not all of them were answered. On section 8 of the memorandum of understanding, I am clear this an agreement made between SETU and Carlow College that both parties have to agree to or else it does not stand. How and when was it decided that a TUPE situation did not arise in this instance? Did the Department see the Mazars report and was it shared? Can the Department ensure that funding will be available for those social care students who usually have an opportunity to do a level 8 degree after level 7? Will that be made available to them? At the moment it seems that this funding is not there.
Professor Veronica Campbell:
I will start with section 8 of the memorandum of understanding. The framework that was agreed between Carlow College and SETU, and approved by both governing bodies, does not provide for the transfer of staff. Instead, it very clearly outlines the agreement that Carlow College would retain responsibility for the students, its staff and its operational arrangements during the teach-out period.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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How was that decided upon and when? Did SETU decide upon that itself?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Could Dr. Collins give a time for when?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Before 19 May, there would not have been any idea that there were going to be redundancies.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I have to move on to allow others get their questions in.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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How much money was given to Carlow College for the next two years to keep it ticking over?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Most third level institutions are not-for-profit.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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They are not-for-profit. Why did the Department not decide, since it was getting these grounds, to take it on?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I know but they are handing it over, so it would not then be private.
Mr. Keith Moynes:
We are effectively paying for it. The State is taking €6 million, which the Minister was anxious to do to make sure there was no disorderly wind-down where people lost their jobs immediately without any money to pay for redundancies. The State is making a very substantial investment because the Minister was concerned to protect the students, the staff and the long-term amenity of the college.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Where is it written that the college will continue for education and will only be used for education? Is that written in clear language for everybody's sake?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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A view is not good enough. A view is neither here nor there.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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He has not been very clear lately so that would mean nothing.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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It can never change then.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Murphy for that clarification.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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A private not-for-profit institution was offering itself to the public sector so I do not understand why this closure has to happen. I do not see how higher education is served by 87 people - educators and associated staff - losing their jobs and the unique history, heritage and identity associated with this college being extinguished. I do not understand it. Deficits can be dealt with. If the public sector was getting an asset, surely the Department could negotiate the issue of the deficit with the staff.
Mr. Keith Moynes:
The Department has been involved since 2022, when we gave Carlow College additional funding that has added up to about €3.1 million over that period. This was to provide a basis to address the cost and financial sustainability of the institution. The State cannot just underwrite private deficits. We have always been clear that financial sustainability was critical. The governors of the college recognised this.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Surely the Department always balances these things against the educational imperative and the value to the staff, the institution and the region. It can then work out a solution to deficits if it wants to save the institution.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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We do not have the evidence - certainly not here and we need to see that report - that it was not resolvable while still integrating with SETU and maintaining the jobs and ethos of the college. That is certainly not apparent to us, unless Mr. Moynes can tell me it is a slam dunk.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It was offering itself to be a public one.
Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I want clarification regarding the information given to students and staff. Did the Minister ask the college in December to hold a series of public meetings with the staff in the college? Did these take place and if not, why not? Can the witnesses from the college again confirm that it did not withhold any information from SIPTU or the staff and students throughout this process? Can they confirm on the record that the college did not do that?
Fr. Conn Ó Maoldhomhnaigh:
Yes, we were encouraged to talk to staff, but I did ask at meetings what I would tell the staff. Was I to go in and tell them that there may be redundancies and there may not be redundancies, there may be integration and there may not be an integration? There was nothing clear to me that I could go in and say that this was the information I had, this was the way things were going and this was an agreement we could talk about. We did not have that. We have outlined what was happening in the period to do with the negotiations, etc. Then, when we finally got there, I was of the view - I believe senior management agreed with me - that we could not at that stage put that information out there at what was a critical time for students in their studies, that being, the last week before exams started and then for the duration of the exams.
Laura Harmon (Labour)
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Is Fr. Ó Maoldhomhnaigh saying that the Department did not provide him with enough information to give out at the time?
Fr. Conn Ó Maoldhomhnaigh:
It was not a case of not providing information. We were not in a position where we had a deal on the table as to what this integration was going to look like and what we wanted for the integration. We were in Waterford on 9 March. There were a lot of things up in the air at that stage. There was talk about scenarios, there was talk about how those may be funded, there was talk about negotiations, etc. All of that played out to the end of April coming into May. For me to go to staff and say what there may or may not be in such a piecemeal scenario was not something I thought was a useful thing to do. As I said in relation to the Senator’s question-----
Laura Harmon (Labour)
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Did Fr. Ó Maoldhomhnaigh consult the union before he told the staff?
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I want to go back to this memo because there seems to be a bit of a discrepancy. Did Fr. Ó Maoldhomhnaigh get an email or notification that a memo had been brought to the Cabinet, that it was positive and that it was looking like integration in December?
Fr. Conn Ó Maoldhomhnaigh:
I met the Minister, his officials and others in his offices on 18 December. At that meeting, among other things, he said that he had brought a memo to the Cabinet and that the Cabinet had approved integration of Carlow College into SETU. Those are the words I heard clearly. Those are the words I gave the staff in my annual Christmas message to them. We and staff took great hope from that. Staff were of the view that integration was on the way. I ended my email by saying that I thought 2026 was looking like a good year for Carlow College in terms of our integration into SETU. At that stage, we understood it to be staff, students and courses that could transfer. That was our clear understanding. That is what we had worked for.
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I can understand SETU having to do due diligence but who gains from this? We know that Carlow College is losing but who will gain this campus now? That is a question that needs to be answered.
Professor Veronica Campbell:
The funding being made available from the State to Carlow College for the teach-out period is in consideration of the lands and buildings transferring to SETU in August 2028. Before that time, we are very keen to do a master plan of the site to flesh out the opportunities and the potential of the site. Student accommodation, which we know we have a shortage of in the south east, is something we are very keen on exploring in that context.
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Someone does gain but the students and staff lose out, basically. That is what is coming out of this meeting.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Not approved.
Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Can we find out who was at that meeting so we can ask them?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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That may be something that comes up another day. I thank Mr. Moynes for now.
Jennifer Murnane O'Connor (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the Department, I want to be clear on this. I will put it as nicely as I can because I am here in the Oireachtas. There has never been goodwill in terms of how to integrate Carlow College into SETU. I can say that because, as people have said, I am very much involved. I am not just saying this. Take funding as an example. Carlow College is eligible for funding. We know we get the fees, but no core funding was available for psychology courses even though the programme was not available anywhere else. There were things that Carlow College went looking for from the Department but to which the Department set huge challenges.
There is the challenge of integration into SETU. The witnesses might come back to me on that.
I do not understand how the valuation of the campus was arrived at. It does not make sense.
My final question is for Professor Campbell. Why did she say in the memorandum of understanding that staff would not be part of that integration? That is what Professor Campbell and SETU wanted.
Going back to the college and Fr. Ó Maoldhomhnaigh, communication has been an issue. We know that now. That might be something that all Members of the Oireachtas need to look at. Consider the willingness and hard work that has gone into this. There has been negativity about this. It should have been a good news story, with staff moving over and integration, but it has turned into something that none of us expected six months ago. Will the witnesses answer these questions, in particular on staff not being transferred over, the valuation and why the college was not getting grants like others?
Ms Caoimhe Hope:
To very clearly reiterate, Carlow College is an autonomous private institution. It is not under the remit of the State and does not have public service staff. Core funding through the recurrent grant as administered by the Higher Education Authority is for public service institutions, those being, publicly funded higher education institutions. It predominantly funds pay and pensions costs for staffing. That is the purpose of the core grant. Carlow College is in receipt of free fees, which is the funding that follows a student on an eligible programme. Those programmes were taken on by the State as a legacy and were funded as meeting identified skills needs at that point in time.
There has been ongoing engagement with Carlow College since 2017 about its financial position and courses it provides on behalf of the State. As Mr. Moynes said, we increased the funding level given to Carlow College in 2022 as part of a process where it was to look at its financial sustainability and viability into the future. We have also provided one-off funding to Carlow College to look at strategic options for its future. That process has been ongoing. We are at the point now where a recommendation was made to the Department, as signed in a framework, by the governing authority of Carlow College and SETU that they would continue the teach-out period. It is a decision that has been taken outside of the State.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Understood. I have a couple of minutes. Reflecting on what we have heard this afternoon, the picture that has been painted of the very intense negotiations, discussions and examination of what might be possible in terms of integration and what may be necessary in terms of winding down and redundancies is that things were very pressurised during that period. It is also obvious from the accounts of witnesses that Carlow College and the Department are well aware of significant financial pressure, which was playing on their minds, too. I would suggest that there was certainly an imbalance of power when it came to arriving at the final decisions that would have shaped and informed the memorandum of understanding. As a committee, we should reflect on that afterwards. It does not strike me that the advocates or the people representing Carlow College were in an equal position in terms of negotiating what may have been possible, although there was a substantial landholding that was of value being brought to the table for those discussions.
Professor Campbell spoke of a report that informed her organisation’s thinking. I am not for a second suggesting that she does not have good reasons for making the decisions and arriving at the position she arrived at, but when was that report provided to her?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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That informed the approaches Professor Campbell and her team took in the further discussions and negotiations after that.
I thank Professor Campbell for clarifying that she will go back to the governing authority to see if it can be shared with us. It would be very useful for us to see that and get an understanding of what informed the perspective SETU approached those discussions with.
That is it for the public session. On behalf of the committee, I thank all of the witnesses for attending and engaging with the committee today.
We will now suspend briefly to allow the witnesses to depart before moving into private session to deal with housekeeping issues. Is that agreed? Agreed.