Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Planning and Development (Exempted Development (Act of 2000)) Regulations 2026, Nos. 1 to 7, and the Planning and Development (Licensing of Outdoor Events) Regulations 2026 have been referred to this committee for consideration by both Houses of the Oireachtas. Today we have the opportunity to consider these regulations with the Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Cummins, and his officials. The opening statement has been circulated, and I propose that we publish the opening statement. Is that agreed? Agreed. I invite the Minister of State to make his opening remarks.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach and everybody here for affording me the opportunity to present a number of new exempted development regulations. I believe strongly that Ireland's planning system exists to serve the public, and not to stand in its way. That is why I am bringing forward these changes to planning exemptions because for too long, many homeowners have found themselves tied up in unnecessary bureaucracy when trying to make modest, practical and sensible changes to their properties. The measures I outline will empower people to make changes to their homes without the need for planning permission, thereby creating a greater array of housing options for people. There has been particular attention paid to one new exemption, which will allow people who meet the relevant criteria to build a detached auxiliary dwelling unit of up to 45 sq. m in their back garden. At the outset I say that nobody is being forced to avail of this exemption. This is merely an attempt to provide housing options for people and the characterisation and labels applied by some, which I will not repeat, do a great disservice to the many professionals who are working in the area of modern methods of construction and the many individuals and families who are already living in these high-quality homes. I firmly believe in the benefits of this measure. It can provide high-quality accommodation for younger people living at home with their parents and trying to save for a mortgage. It can provide options for persons with a disability who want independence and privacy but need their family in close proximity for support. It can provide options for older persons to right-size to a smaller property but crucially remain in the community they have lived in all their lives.

A by-product of these exempted development regulations will be the time freed up within local authority planning teams. We are acutely aware of the significant pressures, given the scale of housing and infrastructure challenges we face. By reducing the volume of small-scale projects, we will free up planners to concentrate on larger and more complex developments. All of these regulations are carefully calibrated to allow a homeowner flexibility while also ensuring appropriate limitations and safeguards are in place to ensure development is completed in line with building regulations.

I will outline in summary the eight sets of regulations. These can be broken into two topics: exemptions for residential dwellings, to which seven of the sets relate; and event licensing, to which the other set relates. The seven sets of regulations that are related to exemptions for residential dwellings will be made by amending the 2001 planning and development regulations. The central purpose across all changes that are being introduced is to facilitate the efficient use of residential space through enhancements, expansion or adaption over the different stages of the life cycle, while also lifting a regulatory burden on both the citizen and the planning authorities.

The first set will amend class 1 of Schedule 2 to increase the existing exemption for extension of the principal dwelling from 40 sq. m to 45 sq. m., and class 3 of Schedule 2 to increase the existing exemption for a structure in the back garden, such as a shed, store, home office or gym, from 25 sq. m to 30 sq. m. The second set will amend Schedule 2 to insert a new class 1A to provide a new exemption for subdivision of the principal dwelling, allowing one additional self-contained unit within the existing building envelope, with a minimum floor area for each subdivided unit of 32 sq. m. The third set will amend Schedule 2 to insert a new class 3A to provide a new exemption for an auxiliary habitable dwelling, linked to the services of the principal house, which may be between 32 sq. m and 45 sq. m. The fourth set will amend Schedule 2 to insert a new class 62, which is a new exemption to provide for cycle or bin storage at both the front and back of the property, and to insert a new class 63, which is a new exemption to allow for insulation on external walls in line with existing SEAI grant provisions. The fifth set will amend class 2 of Schedule 2 to expand the current exemption for a heat pump so that it is not restricted to the rear of the property. The sixth set will amend Schedule 2 to insert a new class 2A to provide for the removal of a chimney from a house. The seventh set will amend Schedule 2 to insert a new class 1B to introduce a new exemption to provide for extension via the addition of a dormer roof box, and to insert a new class 1C to introduce a new exemption to provide for the insertion of a roof light on the principal dwelling.

The regulations include a number of safeguards. In all cases, any relevant building and fire regulations, including those for habitable dwellings where applicable, will continue to apply. The purpose of the Planning and Development (Licensing of Outdoor Events) Regulations 2026 is to set out operational requirements that apply to an application for an event licence provision as set out in Part 16 of the Planning and Development Act 2024. They also provide for improvements to matters of procedure and administration in relation to applications for, and the grant of, licences for events and in relation to events to be held by a local authority. Broadly speaking, the same requirements that applied to events licensing under the Planning and Development Act 2000, as amended, and the consequent 2001 regulations, are carried over into the 2024 Act and its consequent regulations.

The small number of revisions provide for improvements in matters of procedure and administration in relation to applications for, and the grant of licences for, events and in relation to events to be held by the local authority concerned.

I commend these eight sets of draft regulations to the committee. They are each important in their own right and I believe they have the potential to have a real and positive impact on people's lives. If, further to today's presentation to the committee, these draft regulations are subsequently approved by a positive resolution of both Houses of the Oireachtas it is my intention to sign the regulations relating to residential dwellings into law as soon as possible thereafter. The event licensing regulations will be signed at the same time as the rest of the body of regulations that are in the process of being finalised for the commencement of the rest of the 2024 Act later this year. I thank members for their attendance and I look forward to answering the questions they may have.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State. We have good attendance so I propose that each member will have six minutes. I ask people to be concise with their questions and we may be able to have a second round.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State and the officials. As I said outside, we have been waiting a year and a half for these and we finally have them. The Minister of State knows my general position on the most controversial of the regulations in front of us, in terms of a desire to have greater flexibility for families to have freestanding residential extensions in their back gardens but not to extend this to renters and particularly renters with no tenancy agreements. I do not want to use my time rehashing this as I have some very specific technical questions that I am keen for the Minister of State to answer.

To put on record, I am broadly comfortable with the first regulation on extensions, the fourth regulation on bicycles being stored, the fifth regulation on heat pumps, the sixth regulation on chimneys, the seventh regulation on dormer extensions and the eighth on event licensing. I have some concerns about the subdivision.

To get into regulation No. 3 on freestanding residential extensions, I have technical questions to clarify for our benefit and that of the public. Paragraph 2 of the amendment of Part 1 of Schedule 2 of the principal regulations talks about the exemption only applying to "development that is commenced and completed during the relevant period", so it will not apply retrospectively. How will a planning authority know when a development commenced? Following on from this, will the Minister of State confirm there is no requirement for building control amendment regulation certification for these because they are one-off structures rather than estate structures?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ó Broin's first question is on retrospective application. They are not retrospective. People will have to give notification to their local planning authority as part of this process two weeks prior to commencement. They will also have to do a commencement notice under building control regulations with regard to detached habitable dwellings. Paragraph 4 of the amendment of Part 1 of Schedule 2 of the principal regulations states, "For the avoidance of doubt, the relevant building control legislation shall apply (such as Building Regulations (including Fire Safety) and Building Control Regulations)"-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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So that-----

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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-----which require notification to building control that someone is carrying out works. There is a dual notification process. This is so we can capture the data and we know where and when these are being installed. There is also an official commencement notice under building control.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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To be clear, because that is my second question, obviously all building control regulations apply to all buildings being built. One-off buildings or extensions to existing buildings have an exemption from the certification process under the building control amendment regulations, BCAR. Nowhere in this does it say this exemption does not apply here. All it says is that building control regulations as they currently stand have to be adhered to.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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People will need a design certifier as part of the process. If they give a commencement notice to building control as part of it. they have to have an assigned certifier. Deputy Ó Broin is referring to modular but, importantly, this does not have to be modular. It can be a traditional build. Perhaps Deputy Ó Broin could give some clarity.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I want to get to the modular in a second. Right now, if somebody is building a one-off dwelling or an extension to an existing dwelling they can have an exemption from the certification process under the 2014 regulations. Is the Minister of State saying categorically that the exemption in place for one-off dwellings or extensions to existing dwellings does not apply here and the full certification process under BCAR-----

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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It is a new dwelling. This is a new dwelling that has to comply with building regulations.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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All buildings have to comply with building regulations. For the avoidance of doubt, and it is not a trick question, if I am building a new stand-alone dwelling anywhere in the country today, since 2014 I have an opt-out from BCAR certification if it is a one-off dwelling. I still have to adhere to the regulations but I do not have to submit the certification. What I want to know is whether the opt-out from certification applies to this or is the Minister of State saying there is no opt-out and they have to fully comply with certification for commencement, design, disability and completion? This does not apply to one-off dwellings or extensions to existing dwellings.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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As I have said, people have to submit a commencement notice with the documentation that will include a design certifier, signed certifier, competent builder and they have to-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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So the one-off exemption does not apply here.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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They will have to give their completion certification as well, in addition to the notification to the local authority. What I would say is if people are doing a traditional build they know the process associated with it. In the case of a modular build we know that some companies have agrément certification and others do not.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I want to deal with this separately. Certification applies whether using traditional build or modular build. So we are very clear, the current exemption for one-off dwellings from BCAR certification will not apply to these properties, irrespective of what they are built with.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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They must meet the building regulations.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Everything has to meet the building regulations; I am asking whether the exemption from certification for one-off housing does not apply in this case.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I have just clarified the process.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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With the modulars there is a range of building technologies out there. For somebody who wants to put one of these structures in their back garden, and they want to use off-site manufacturing and three-dimensional systems, will it be restricted only to companies with an agrément certificate or will it be open to companies providing a range of products from low to high grade?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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My understanding is that three or four companies have agrément certification. The last read-out I had was that about four systems were nearing completion in terms of agrément certification. In relation to the certification process which I have just outlined, those companies will be able to meet it because they have gone through a process of meeting the standards all the way down and the system has been certified by the NSAI.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That was not my question but I thank the Minister of State for the explanation. My question is this: if I am using a three-dimensional off-site manufactured system for a non-traditional build, will I only be allowed to use a system where the company already has an agrément certificate from the NSAI?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That is how people will meet the building standards.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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No. They are two completely separate things.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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"Yes" is the answer. This is because the system has been assigned and adjudicated-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I have no issue with that.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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-----as meeting the building standards-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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So I will not be able to-----

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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-----down the line.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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If I want to use a modular system that has not received its agrément certificate from the NSAI previously, does it mean I cannot use this system or that the system has to go through the BCAR certification? The two certification systems are not the same. They are different processes and they are both very important.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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It means people will not be able to meet the terms of our regulations as they are set out.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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So only agrément certificates.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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There is nothing - to be clear, this applies across the board - stopping anybody from using a traditional build method. Equally, there is nothing stopping anybody from going through the regular planning process in relation to any of these items.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Of course. If I am using a modular system with the agrément certification of the build system, I still have to go through the building control (amendment) regulation, BCAR, with commencement, disability, fire and completion included. The BCAR still has to apply in all cases.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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There is still a need to show that and the assigned certifier will have to do that as part of the commencement process. I hope that satisfies to answer the Deputy's questions.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I will come back in during the next round, if there is time.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State and his officials for coming in and for the opening statement. I commend the Minister of State and his Department on bringing forward these regulations. They will make a big difference for a lot of people in future. There are those who can only see the negative in something like this, and while it is good to have a critical voice, we cannot let perfection be the enemy of progress. Progress is very important.

These regulations will allow for the provision of separate dwelling units in someone's back garden. We are well aware of what someone's back garden is like. Given the close proximity to the back door of someone's personal home, I just cannot believe that it will lead to the unregulated free for all in the rental market that has been suggested. I am opposed to that happening.

My county of Clare is a rural one and these regulations will hit differently. I have a couple of questions in this regard. How will wastewater treatment be handled for houses with septic tanks?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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In the same way as if it were not a septic tank and a house were being connected to the mains, it is necessary to connect to what already exists in this regard, which has to have capacity. People cannot install or build the auxiliary dwelling unit within a percolation area. It has to be set back from that. This would impact how treatment will operate. This is clearly set out in the regulations before the committee.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Will there be a requirement for the environment section to be informed of the construction of such an exempted dwelling unit?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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People will have to give a notification to the local authority that they are availing of this exemption, and in the process of doing so, it will be necessary to declare that all of the conditions are being met, one of which is as the Deputy outlined.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Would it have the capacity to prevent this construction?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The only way there is any impact, in terms of any exemption - this goes across the board - is if something requires an environmental impact assessment, EIA, or an appropriate assessment, AA. Exemptions do not apply then. If that is not the case, people can avail of the exemption, notify building control and the local authority of their intention to carry out these works under the exemption, and confirm that they are satisfied that they meet all of the criteria, as set out in the regulations before us.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Very good. If the property already has an exempted 40 sq. m extension at the back of the house, which we are well aware would be the case in many rural areas, will this prevent people from availing of the new exemptions?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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No. It is a different class of exemption. There is provision for an extension to the rear of a property and also a modular element, but not the subdivision of a property into two and a auxiliary dwelling unit as well. For all intents and purposes, people can make one dwelling unit into two units through a subdivision or they can make their one primary owner-occupier dwelling into a unit with an auxiliary dwelling unit to the rear. There will never be a case where it will be possible to make one unit into three units, but it is possible to make one unit into two units.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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If someone has a 40 sq. m extension, exempt from planning, already at the back of the house, can they also go with the 45 sq. m exempted dwelling unit?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That is fine, provided they can meet all of the criteria in the regulations. One of those is that there is residual garden space of at least 25 sq. m. If people can satisfy the criteria set down in the regulations, the answer to the Deputy's question is "Yes".

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That is positive and important. It is important that people be aware of this criterion.

I note that the exemption will only apply where the principal dwelling house is the sole or main residence of the property owner at the time the development is commenced. Will the Minister of State clarify in cases where the sole or main residence status of the property changes, for example, through sale or inheritance, whether there would be an obligation to obtain planning permission?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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It is the principal owner-occupier at the time of the exemption when the auxiliary dwelling unit is either built or installed. It must be the owner-occupier. This is not a measure for landlords. The Minister, Deputy Browne, and I have been clear in this regard. This is a measure to provide the flexibility for people for housing options. I have always said that I see this measure as providing housing options for people, including the likes of intergenerational movement. It was clear from the public consultation we did as part of this process that there were questions concerning situations that might arise in this context. One was what would happen if the son or daughter moved and purchased a property elsewhere and another was what would happen if the older person who had moved into the dwelling to the rear of a house passed away. Should we allow that property to lie vacant? "No", is what I would say in answer to that question, and that is what the Government says as well. It should be the case that people are able to rent that property out. People in the public consultation also argued for the likes of students. If it was just for family members, then we would exclude carers providing care to those in the house. All of these matters were considered in the round in the making of the regulations.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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If the property is sold on, is it still the case that planning permission is not needed for the retention of the dwelling unit?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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It obviously has to be used as part of the main house. It cannot be subdivided or separated out.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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It cannot be subdivided.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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People cannot divide their plot in two and sell on the dwelling to the rear separately from the main dwelling house. For all intents and purposes, the auxiliary dwelling is treated as if it is attached to the main dwelling house, albeit separated by a distance. It will share the same utilities, like electricity, water and so on, and the same address, but it gives the flexibility to separate it out to ensure that people availing of this measure have a bit more privacy than there is in the rent-a-room scenario, where they are sharing the kitchen as well as having the run of the house, so to speak.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Similar to Deputy Cooney, I welcome this initiative by the Minister of State and the Department in relation to exempted developments. We all recognise that a lot of planners' time is taken up dealing with minor planning issues. In the context of the housing situation we find ourselves in, we want to see their time devoted to larger scale developments and progressing them through the planning system as efficiently as possible. I commend the Minister of State on the work he is doing.

Turning to a few specifics in relation to this matter, the existing 40 sq. m exemption that applies now is being adjusted to 45 sq. m. This is to align with the new provision of the auxiliary unit. To clarify, if a property owner has already availed of that 40 sq. m exemption for an extension, for example, if they have already built on a kitchen or whatever and availed of the exemption and they now wish to provide the auxiliary dwelling unit, how will this process play out?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Both can be facilitated, provided that the property owner can meet the criteria of the regulations as set out, including the residual garden space. If someone has extended their property under the exemption for 40 sq. m, they can now extend by a further 5 sq. m in respect of the extension to match the new exemption we are setting out here. They cannot, however, have availed of the 40 sq. m exemption and then put on another 45 sq. m. attached to the dwelling. They could install an auxiliary dwelling unit that is separate, though.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Even if they have availed of the 40 sq. m, or the 45 sq. m in the new case, exempted development to build an attachment to the house, an extension, for example, they can still go ahead with the 45 sq. m auxiliary dwelling unit in addition.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Provided they can meet all the criteria set out in the regulations.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That auxiliary unit has got a lot of the attention. I am in favour of it. It provides accommodation options for people. The Minister of State mentioned intergenerational movement, but it provides other options as well that are beneficial and we have to increase all forms of accommodation.

What has not got as much attention is the subdivision of an existing house, which is quite a significant change in Ireland. One sees it quite a lot in cities in the UK, such as London, and it works quite well. To clarify the certification, compliance and so on, it is a very similar approach to the auxiliary unit.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Yes. One must meet building regulations as part of it. It has a minimum size requirement, in that both units will be at least 32 sq. m. In making one, someone cannot make the main part of the house smaller than 32 sq. m. That is to match the requirements under the studio apartment standard.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The minimum standards. Regarding the auxiliary unit, the commencement details are submitted to the local authority and the person must have professional people on board.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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We have included the notification piece to the local authority in addition to building regulations because we want to capture that data. Every year, we are able to publish the exemptions for commercial-to-residential work, such as former pubs that have been converted into residential units. It is useful data to have. In devising these, it is appropriate that we would know how many have availed of the subdivision exemption and how many have availed of the auxiliary dwelling unit exemption, and we will know where they are in that notification process to the local authority.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is perfect.

There is some commentary coming from the local authority sector around enforcement issues. It foresees that there will be additional inquiries and references made to local authorities' enforcement sections when people see something going on in their neighbours' gardens or the houses next door being divided. Not everybody follows the detail like we do. It is our job to do so. What is the Minister of State's view on this in terms of resources? Are local authorities equipped to do this? Is there a need to uplift them with resources?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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As to resourcing within the local authority system and planning more generally, it is obviously a skilled profession. It is difficult to attract talent. I stand to be corrected, but I am trying to recall the ministerial action plan from Committee Stage of the planning and development Bill last week. I believe there are 260 posts. Six were for An Coimisiún Pleanála, so 254 were proposed for local authorities. The idea of these regulations is to free up resources within the local authority system. As regards e-planning, which is now rolled out across all of our local authorities, 60% to 80% of applications, depending on the local authority, are now made online through e-planning rather than via reams and reams of paper that have to be documented by staff. This should assist by freeing up resources, but enforcement is a matter for local authorities and we know that they carry out that role every single day of the week across the country.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I have outlined concerns, particularly in relation to the lack of requirement to go through proper planning and the renting out of these properties. Regarding standards, when someone rents such a property, they will be a licensee rather than a tenant. How does the Minister of State intend to ensure that people are living in accommodation of a decent standard? Will he respond to the concerns raised by Threshold, which has said very clearly in a letter this week that setting these rental arrangements outside of the scope of the Residential Tenancies Act will lead to legal uncertainty, increase the risk of exploitation, especially for vulnerable groups such as migrants, lower income households and older people, and may contribute to a two-tier housing system where vulnerable groups are disproportionately housed in lower quality, insecure accommodation? The Minister of State said that this was not a measure for landlords, but the reality is that it is. We are likely going to see thousands of these units rented out - perhaps the Minister of State will give an estimate of how many numbers he believes will be rented out - in situations where renters have no rights whatsoever. They will be in licensee arrangements. How is the Minister of State going to ensure that there is no exploitation of renters and that they have proper standards and conditions? Under licensee arrangements, they can be evicted with no notice. Is this policy actually going to worsen the homelessness crisis with people temporarily living there?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I am here with planning regulations that are providing for exempted development. The matter the Deputy is referring to is obviously for the housing Bill that the Minister is in the process of bringing through the Oireachtas to provide for that licensing arrangement for the auxiliary dwelling unit. It is the intention of the Government that there will be an extension of the rent-a-room allowance that will qualify under this. I do not ever recall any substantive debate in this committee, on which I sat for five years, or in the Dáil or Seanad about getting rid of the rent-a-room allowance. The most recent data we have shows that about 18,000 people avail of that and rent within the four walls of a house. If it is good enough within the four walls of the house, why would we not apply it within the curtilage of the dwelling?

The Deputy and I disagree on this point, but I am in the business of bringing forward the planning exemption piece. The licensing piece is being brought forward under the housing (miscellaneous) Bill. We cannot allow a situation to arise where we are not providing the option and flexibility that I outlined to Deputy Cooney whereby a son, daughter or older person who has been in the property for a significant period or short period vacates it and it is then let out to, for example, a carer who is caring for somebody within the property. That is what I would say to the Deputy in response to his question.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I take what the Minister of State is saying there but that does not get away from the point that there will be people renting these properties who do not have rental agreements. Threshold has outlined that it is very concerned about this. The Minister of State's points do not address how this has the potential to expand exploitation within the rental sector.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I do not recall anybody calling for the removal of licensing arrangements within the four walls of the house. If people have, I am not aware of it.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Does the Minister of State accept that a free-standing structure in the back is completely different from living within someone's four walls?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I do not accept that.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Will someone be able to receive the housing assistance payment if he or she is in these situations?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That is not a matter for me in terms of the planning regulations. That is obviously a matter for-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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The Minister of State is here answering the questions.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I do not have an answer to that specific question.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Is the Minister of State serious?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I am here to deal with the planning regulations that are before us.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Okay. We know that people in receipt, the licensees, can get the housing assistance. It is my understanding then-----

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Then the answer is "Yes" to the Deputy's question.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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So, yes, they can. Therefore, let us say someone's household situation is that they are living in an overcrowded situation and they move out to the back - sorry, not that situation - someone on the social housing waiting list who is paying rent and they get HAP, if they lose their job and moves into this, will they be offered-----

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I am not clear on the circumstance the Deputy is outlining.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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If somebody is in the modular home or the modular building-----

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is calling it "modular" but it does not have to be modular.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Whatever, in the back. If they are in this new structure that was exempt - is exempt - and they are paying rent under the licensee arrangement, the rent-a-room situation, if they reach a situation where they are unable to cover that rent and they then apply for HAP, are they then considered to be housed and their needs met if they are in receipt of HAP?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I will have to come back to the Deputy with an exact answer to that and I will be more than happy to do so after consulting the housing side.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I think it is a big question because what we are going to see is people disappearing into back gardens-----

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will appreciate that what I have before the committee here is planning-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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These are fundamental changes to our housing system-----

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, Deputy-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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-----that you would think this would have an answer to.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, Deputy. I am not bringing forward the changes the Deputy is referencing here-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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You are. You are part of the Government. This is part of it.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I am bringing forward exemptions in relation to the planning element. That is what I am dealing with here before the committee this evening.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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They are completely connected.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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What we are dealing with is the exemptions, so we will keep our questions to that rather than situations. We could come up with a hundred different scenarios-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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It is important that we go through those in making decisions.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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What we are discussing tonight are the planning exemptions we have here before us. You will stick to them if you can, please.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Okay.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Do you have any other question to ask?

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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No.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It kind of makes somewhat redundant the questions I have if the Minister of State thinks they are separate. On the idea that we are allowing exemptions for these structures, which, by the way, I do not have a problem with if it is family members, although I still think we have to ensure quality in the building and so on, the fact that they can then be rented changes everything as far as I am concerned, along with the fact that a tax break is also being extended. We are now providing a pretty significant incentive for people to build these structures and for them to enter into the rental market on a very large scale. If the predictions of Progress Ireland, the Collison brothers think tank, which apparently floated this idea, are correct, they are talking about 350,000 of these things. That is huge. It is a big matter and the Government is incentivising it. Huge numbers of these are going to end up in the rental sector. Is the idea that we can separate the planning dimension from this and from what will result from it, which are tens of thousands of structures that will be rented out and the people who live in them will not have the normal protections of renters, not a concern for the Minister of State? If the Minister of State is not concerned by that, I certainly am because we will have a second tier of tenants. That is what is going to happen. It will be a second-class group of tenants who do not enjoy the same protections, and the Government is incentivising this and actively encouraging people to do this. To me that is a huge problem. It is appalling that the Minister of State has not consulted the Minister whose responsibility it would be to ensure protection for people who might be living in these things.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Licensing is currently provided for.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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It is not great.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Licensing is currently provided for. At the top of his contribution the Deputy said he has no issue in relation to a planning exemption being applied if it is for a family member, yet derogatory terms have been used to describe these proposals. To Deputies or anyone who has commented in a derogatory manner towards the description of these as so-called beds in sheds, it does not make sense that they are then saying it is okay for a family member to avail of what they determine to be a bed in a shed. It is in some way okay if it is a family member but it is not okay if somebody is renting it.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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There is a very simple distinction. In one case there is a commercial gain to be made. There is profit to be made in the second instance. That changes the relationship between the person who would be living in the structure and the person who is providing that residence. It fundamentally changes the relationship.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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What is the Deputy's answer to the point that I had to consider when I was considering these regulations, which is that of an older person who has facilitated this intergenerational movement by them moving into the auxiliary dwelling unit and that older person then passes away? Is the Deputy's response that the property should lie vacant? Surely it is not.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I certainly think that under no circumstances should it be rented out where the tenant does not have the same rights afforded to them as people who rent in the normal residential sector.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That is different from what the Deputy said a moment ago.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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No, it is not. I said that we cannot separate the two issues. The Minister of State is incentivising something that is going to lead to the proliferation of these structures into the rented sector with, very quickly, I would say, thousands and then, fairly soon after that, tens of thousands, and possibly hundreds of thousands, of tenants who will not actually have the rights afforded to other tenants.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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In his contribution there the Deputy said that he had an issue with them being rented, full stop.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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When they are exempted.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I have put a point to the Deputy-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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When they are exempted from tenants' rights.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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-----that his solution would leave properties vacant. I am not willing to facilitate that, that I would have vacant properties in this country at a time of such a housing crisis. We all want vacant and derelict properties to be brought back into use. We cannot on one hand call for that and then on the same side of things say we are okay having vacant auxiliary dwelling units.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Minister of State would not expect a tenant to live in a derelict property, would he?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The point is that both of us share the ambition of ensuring that there are no vacant or derelict properties because there is such housing need out there in the country. My point to the Deputy is that the alternative to availing and allowing for the rental of these properties is seeing vacant units across the country. I am not willing to allow that to occur.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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But the Minister of State is willing to allow a second-class category of tenant who will not have the protections against eviction, excessive rent increases, or just poor behaviour by unscrupulous landlords, which we know exists.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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As I have said, I am bringing forward the planning regulations here. The licensing piece is part of the housing miscellaneous legislation that has been through the Oireachtas. We do not know the numbers here. The Deputy has put out numbers there. Obviously, there will be strict criteria in terms of-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Collison brothers put them out to the Government.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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There are strict criteria attaching to this. We will keep the numbers under review. There is a sunset clause in this regulation, but as with all policies, we will keep them under review.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know the answer but will the Minister of State just clarify that these auxiliary dwelling units do not count as housing output in terms of the overall delivery targets and so on?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That is not the intention. No. Absolutely not. I think the Minister, Deputy Browne, is on record saying as much.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Some of these units exist at present and they were not done under the exempted regulation, obviously, because it was not enforced.

However, for those that are in place and qualify under the criteria of the now coming into force exempted development, will there be a regularisation process?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The regulations before the committee are forward looking. They are not retrospective in nature. If someone has installed or built something that is unauthorised, that is a matter for the local authority in terms of enforcement.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can I tease that out a little further? We would not, surely, expect local authorities to pursue enforcement action on existing structures that fall within the category of under 45 sq. m and comply with the other requirements. It is an important question for people who have invested, albeit in an unauthorised manner. How do we treat them going forward?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That is a matter for each local authority in terms of enforcement. The regulations I am bringing forward are to provide for exemptions for an auxiliary dwelling unit. If somebody has built a structure to the rear of their property, I would expect that, because there has not been an exemption in place, they would have sought planning permission for same. If they have not, that is a matter for each local authority.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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A question put to me when I was interviewed on this issue was the number of occupants that could be accommodated in these auxiliary units. It is a maximum 45 sq. m and minimum 32 sq. m. What is the safeguard around someone trying to put four or five people into one of these?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will know what the standards are. Typically, 32 sq. m is single and one to two persons in 45 sq. m, but occupancy is a matter for the owner of the property, their family and circumstance. We obviously have standards and expected occupancy as part of what apartment minimum standards are.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is obviously the upper limit on the tax exemption for rent-a-room which sets a limit to the occupancy, because if you can only claim up to €14,000, there is not much incentive to go beyond that because you would be liable to tax on income that comes in over that.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The rent-a-room reference is important. It does put that ceiling there. If someone is choosing to avail of the rent-a-room scheme currently, which you would not see why you would not, where a room is being rented out within the four walls of the house, it is an important mechanism that has been put in there. It is about a balance and providing options. I see this as being used for family members and those with a disability who need to live in close proximity to their family member - that intergenerational movement piece - but as I said to Deputy Boyd Barrett, we need to be able to facilitate the rental element because we would not have been capturing carers, students or other people. Workers on rotation was given as an example on multiple occasions. There could be a nurse in University Hospital Waterford for a period of 12 or 16 weeks on rotation or there could be doctors who move around. It is about options and removing red tape from the planning system. I think it has been broadly welcomed by the public.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I totally agree. As the Minister of State said, the perfect cannot be the enemy of good. We have to make decisions, come up with initiatives and find ways to provide additional accommodation for people. This is a measure that can work. There are lots of properties out there with large gardens and services available in areas where there is good infrastructure. It provides an option for homeowners to provide accommodation for family members or, in some cases, rent out much-needed accommodation in many cases, whether it is for students or others. It is a welcome initiative and I commend the Minister of State on it.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. If I may clarify for Deputy Hearne, I know I answered his question on the HAP piece that it was applicable because the Deputy gave the example of rent-a-room. That has been confirmed that it is covered.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I will make two observations. The questions I am asking are to give the Minister of State the opportunity to clarify how these regulations will work because this is the one public forum in which people will be hearing this. It is very significant, and I want to welcome this, notwithstanding that I fully share the concerns of Deputies Hearne and Boyd Barrett on the private rental sector, that the Government will require full BCAR certification and agrément certificates. I fully welcome that. People just need to be very clear about what that means. First, it means the level of certification for these structures will be far greater than, for example, a standard rural one-off house where there is no requirement for BCAR certification. That is very significant. The Minister of State is obviously correct that there are only four companies that have the agrément cert and a number of those have stated they are not interested in this area of business. They are too busy doing schools and hospitals. The consequence of that, and I am not objecting to this, I am just putting it on the record, is that the cost of the modular unit if somebody opts to do this plus the cost of certification would push up the overall cost to about €120,000 plus. People need to be clear about that. Once you have BCAR certification, €8,000 to €10,000, would be the standard cost for a single unit and that is on a scheme. Agrément certification is a very onerous process. It is a very important process. It means it is very high grade off-site manufactured. I have no issue with both of those. They will ensure better standards. That does create a challenge and this is a genuine question. It means the cost of using the higher grade modular with certification are not going to be attractive to large numbers of people and therefore they will face two options. One is to use traditional build, and that is permitted with certification. It will be a little bit more expensive because of the BCAR certification, but that is okay. However, it could also encourage people, or people might be prone, to go for building systems that do not have the agrément certification. That is not the Minister of State’s intention - I get that - but we have to think these things through.

Something else is very clear. Planning enforcement is not a matter for each local authority. The Minister of State is being very clear here, and I want to emphasise it, that anybody who has built such a structure prior to the commencement of these regulations will not be able to retrospectively apply them, and if a formal planning enforcement complaint is made to the local authority, it is legally bound to enforce. We need to be very honest with people and say if someone has one of these structures, and unless someone has not reported it, the council will be legally obliged to enforce if somebody complains. I am saying all that not to invite a conversation, but if any of that is not correct, please do correct me because lots of people are looking in to see how this operates.

Here are my very specific questions. First, just so we are clear, this regulation obviously applies to land that is zoned residential where there are already residential structures on it. Because of the proximity of the rural planning guidelines and these exempted developments, there are lots of queries around how they relate. Will the Minister of State clarify if it is the case that these regulations will apply to land that is zoned residential where there is residential development on it or how may it interact with the new rural planning guidelines? There is talk about backland development, 90 sq. m, larger structures. Is that entirely separate to this, because that is my reading of it, or is there an interaction?

With respect to enforcement, there is a real concern that if people start to use the wrong kinds of building systems or if they do not go for the BCAR, because BCAR is a significant thing and I welcome it, that it could place an additional resource requirement on the building control sections of our local authorities. Has the Minister of State thought that through?

Finally, I will make one point. Going back to my figures at the start, a good quality modular unit of this size, with agrément cert and BCAR certification is €120,000. The rent-a-room scheme income is capped at €14,000 in the year. That will take someone 8.5 years to pay that down if renting it out.

If, however, the Minister of State were to do that unit in my constituency, or maybe even in parts of his own, if he opted not to do the rent a room scheme but charged €2,500 and operated in the black economy, it would be repaid in four years. Has he thought through the necessary protections to ensure people do not abuse these rules, either in terms of not complying with BCAR or agrément, or in terms of the incentives that might be in place for people to charge a rent and not pay tax? I know tax is not under the remit of the Minister of State, but how will he protect the planning and building control element from abuse? Right now, our building control authorities do not have the resources to deal with that if it were to happen on a large scale. I am not saying it will. I just want to clarify that. I know the Minister of State wants to sign these regulations as soon as possible. Are we talking this week, next week or the week after? Will he give us an indication of how quickly?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I will try to remember all of the points raised by the Deputy.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I will remind the Minister of State. Do not worry.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The zoning piece is irrelevant to this. This is an existing primary owner-occupier where there is an existing dwelling and they can meet the criteria and regulations as set out. They have the residual garden space and side or rear access to be able to access and all the other things that are set out. They are able to have an auxiliary unit to the rear.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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This is an important point. Not all local authorities have the same zoning matrix, but if the Minister of State took my local authority as an example, almost all of our residential areas are on residentially zoned land, but we would have RU-zoned land. Again, I am not objecting to this. If I have my own home on land that is zoned RU in the Dublin mountains, subject to meeting all of the other criteria, that zoning designation is not an impediment to the use of this exempted development regulation.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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It is within the curtilage of the house.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine. That is the first one cleared.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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In relation to the interchange with the rural piece, these are entirely separate.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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To be clear, and people will ask this, there will now be two options for somebody who owns their own home on rural land. One is to use exempted development, subject to meeting all of these regulations. The other is to go for the option that is in the planning policy statement, which is for the larger 90 sq. m, subject to planning, etc.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Subject to planning.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Exactly. That is nice and clear.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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As I said, there is nothing precluding somebody from applying for 50 sq. m, 55 sq. m or 100 sq. m, but they have to go through the regular planning. What I am providing for here is what I believe is a modest proposal.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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There is no question about that. In terms of the enforcement bit, does the Minister of State see the point I am making that he has put in a level of certification? Deputy McGrath and I had an exchange on the radio. At that time, I did not believe there would be the certification. We had a conversation around it. I am acknowledging there is a high level of certification here.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I have always said - the Deputy will recall from the very first conversation in relation to this matter - that these will have to meet building regulations. They will not be appropriate in every circumstance. We have to have a high standard in relation to this. This was never about substandard accommodation as other people would have suggested.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That is not my point. All buildings have to adhere to building regulations. What is significant, and I have welcomed it, in case the Minister of State thinks I am being unfair, if what he is saying is correct that full BCAR certification and agrément certification are required, that is a high level of certification. I fully welcome it. All I am asking is, in the context of that, could it provide an unintended incentive for people to abuse the regulations? Has the Minister of State had a conversation with the County and City Management Association, CCMA, about the likely impact on building control enforcement?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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What I want to do as a by-product of these exempted development regulations is to support a growing industry in this country in off-site manufacturing. We know that-----

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I am out of time. It is a simple question

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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----- at least another three or four companies are in that process in terms of certification. We know there are some companies that can meet that standard. I want to grow that industry. Enforcement, as I have answered twice or three times, is a matter for local authorities.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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It is, but my question was very specific. Has the Minister of State had a conversation with the CCMA in terms of the capacity of a building control enforcement section to tackle this? It is a "Yes" or "No" question.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I am not going to get into the inner workings of staff deployment. That is a matter for each individual local authority, as the Deputy will appreciate.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That is not the question I asked. I would not ask the Minister of State that. Has he had a conversation with the CCMA about building control enforcement of this? The answer is "No", obviously.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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As I said, staff resourcing is a matter for each individual local authority.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State obviously has not had that conversation.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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As I also said previously, my whole point in this is trying to free up resources within the local authority system. If I free up resources, the deployment of those resources is a matter for each chief executive.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Different categories of professionals. I will take that as a "No".

Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Like so many people in County Louth, we have been eagerly awaiting these regulations. I will focus on the positives because the positives far outweigh any negatives, of which I have not yet been convinced by any members here. When we talk about family members, I see an opportunity for independent living for people who have disabilities, yet want to have that independence away from the family home. I welcome that. It is going to be a huge, important step for people. I also see an opportunity here, and the Minister of State alluded to it, that if it is not a family member, perhaps it could be for carers. As we know, we are trying to move toward a statutory scheme where we will be able to take care of our older people in the home rather than them anticipating a move into a nursing home, quite probably prematurely. This is going to be very welcome because we will also be able to accommodate carers. That will be a necessary step as our population increases in age.

When we are talking about the high quality of the build, that is really important. It is important for the people at home to understand because everybody has mentioned that a lot of people are listening in, wanting to know the nitty-gritty of what they can and cannot do. In some ways, I will do a bit of a myth buster, and the Minister of State can give me a "Yes" or "No" answer to it. For example, when talking about renting, will these be available for short-term lets?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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No.

Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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When one of these auxiliary builds are built, as a family expands and if the room were to allow for it, will they be able to extend that 45 sq. m? If so, I assume it would require additional planning permission at that stage.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That is not covered for under the exemption. Anyone can apply for anything.

Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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Correct. They can initially put in a 45 sq. m auxiliary without any planning permission and, should space and criteria allow for it, they would potentially be able to expand that.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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It would be a matter for the local authority as to how it would adjudicate - whether it was adjudicating on just the extension or whether it would treat the entire property as part of its considerations. For the purpose of the exemption, it is the 45 sq. m. Nothing beyond that is provided for under exempted development regulations.

Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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One of the reasons for renting it out is to not leave it empty. There is also the opportunity that a lot of couples might see this as a temporary solution before they are able to buy. There is the possibility if criteria and space allowed for it, which I am thinking about in rural areas, they would have the potential there. That is something to consider when we are talking about the rural guidelines and the potential to expand on that existing structure rather than going off and trying to build another one.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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It would be a matter for a planning application.

Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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That is it. It is hugely welcomed and largely anticipated. I would like to know when exactly. He did not answer that question.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I did not avoid the question.

Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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We are all waiting with bated breath. So many people are waiting to get going.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Subject to positive resolution of both Houses of the Oireachtas tomorrow, it is my intention to sign the regulations on Thursday. A circular will have to be issued to local authorities and we will give them a week lead-in period. The intention at the moment is that it will be live from 27 July.

Paula Butterly (Louth, Fine Gael)
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People can get their orders in for September.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Subject to being able to meet the regulations.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I have a couple of questions. I was going to ask how quickly it would happen, but that has been answered. A lot of people have come to me, particularly elderly people, who want to downsize, give the house to younger members of their family, and be able to live beside them and be looked after. There are massive benefits. A house will be made available and people can be looked after by their families in their home, rather than be in nursing homes. I see massive positive benefits to it. When will local authorities get a circular about this?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The intention is by the end of the week and that there will be a lead-in period of a week before 27 July. I can sign the regulations on Thursday, subject to having all the documentation ready to go. I thank my officials for the work they have done on these regulations, the Planning and Development Act and all the other regulations on infrastructure we have been working on, which are still to come before this committee. The intention is to get the circular out to local authorities this week and that they will have a week to put their systems in place and be ready for 27 July.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The previous exemption for a building at the back of the house was for 40 sq. m and this is for 45 sq. m. Why is there a different maximum size for exemption?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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We are extending the 40 sq. m to 45 sq. m as well. That is one of the regulations before the committee. It was appropriate, given we were making provision for an auxiliary dwelling unit of 45 sq. m, that the exemption for extensions to the rear of the dwelling would increase by those 5 sq m as well. That is also provided for.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State mentioned earlier that the dwelling has to connect to the water, sewerage and electricity services, but provision is there for separate meters. The two houses are not connected to one service.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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No, they are. That is why the licensing arrangement is the appropriate arrangement because the same is true if someone is within the four walls of the house. There is one electricity bill and water and wastewater should all be connected to the existing services. That is one of the reasons licensing is the most appropriate arrangement in this circumstance.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Okay. I just wanted to clarify that. I am looking forward to it. I live in a rural area and I know five families who have been waiting for these regulations to come in to be able to put this in place. It is particularly relevant to rural areas. Elderly parents might be living alone in a four-bedroom house. Their son or daughter might be living in Dublin or elsewhere paying high rent and this is an opportunity for them to move back into the family home. Parents can live beside their family and be looked after. As I said earlier, I believe it will lead to fewer people being in nursing home care because they can be cared for in their own homes. Although it will not be within the four walls of their home, it will be within the curtilage of the family home and property. I welcome the regulations and pay tribute to the Minister of State and his officials. A lot of work has gone into this over a long period to get these measures before us today.

I will continue to give members an opportunity to contribute.

PJ Murphy (Fine Gael)
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I will be brief. The Seanad is dealing with housing legislation at the moment so I was not able to be present until now. The Minister of State is welcome. I warmly welcome this legislation. I come from a rural constituency and it will be a massive help to a lot of people.

People might have a house with an existing garage that will be converted into liveable quarters. The garage was originally built under the maximum size it could be built without planning permission. Are the owners now entitled to build another garage to replace the one that was converted into living accommodation without seeking planning permission? If a family built a residential home, including a garage up to a maximum size, as they were entitled to do without planning permission, and then converted it under the new legislation to living accommodation or a granny flat, are they now entitled to build a new garage to replace the one that was converted without seeking planning permission?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That falls under the other class, class 3, which provides for the construction, erection or placing within the curtilage of a house awning, shade, other object, greenhouse, garage store or shed or similar structure.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I will give members an opportunity again. We will go with three minutes per member.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I emphasise we all have constituents who want to avail of this and in all our conversations since the beginning of this process we have spoken about them. However, exempted development regulations are a big deal and therefore it is proper for the committee to scrutinise them fully and raise the issues. Otherwise, we would do a disservice to the Minister of State and his team.

One of the challenges that arises from using exempted development regulations is that the local authority does not have the ability to say at a certain point that there is too much. Let us take a real scenario of a typical residential suburban estate in Dublin that might be made up of small culs-de-sac. In my and the Minister of State's preferred scenario, it is for family members or renters within the principal private dwelling. A certain number of those, particularly if the people were already living in those properties, will not increase the density, the number of cars parked or the demand on water and wastewater services. However, there is a point at which the area might begin to have a challenge with car parking, road safety and accessing water or wastewater services. Not only will there be a certification process but also a notification process. Is it the Minister of State's intention for the local authorities to have power at any stage, if in certain locations the volume is reaching that tipping point, as it could, to stop allowing the dwellings to proliferate? It is not provided for in the regulations. What is the mechanism to ensure, if this policy is from the Minister of State's point of view very successful, that an unacceptably high level of strain on car parking, utilities and so on does not become a problem that has to be retrospectively addressed? I am asking that question in a sincere manner because when I talk to profession planners, it is one of the challenges they say an exempted development regulation could have. That goes for subdivision as well as free-standing residential extensions.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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It is the intention that this measure will be reviewed after 18 months. We always keep things under consideration. Feedback from local authorities will form part of the review. I do not envisage the circumstance the Deputy outlined. I understand why he is suggesting it, but there is an inequity or unfairness attached to the suggestion he put forward, where neighbour A would be able to install or build an auxiliary dwelling unit and neighbour B would not, even though the criteria set down in the regulations are satisfied.

I am not sure what the Deputy is suggesting in that respect.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Again, this is a point I am making in sincerity. For example, if you are currently applying for planning in an urban or rural area, there has to be the capacity for water, wastewater and a range of other things, and it works on a first-come-first-served basis. Once the capacity is reached, nobody gets in after that.

I am not looking to create an inequity, but I could take you to residential culs-de-sac in my own constituency that have illegal subdivisions of units. This has created a dramatic increase in cars and led to challenges with car parking. The Minister of State could envisage a situation in a small rural housing estate that is connected to a historic development that is provided with wastewater infrastructure where there would only be a certain capacity.

My point is not to say we should be saying "Yes" or "No" to people. It is that if the critical infrastructure, car parking or other resources were to hit capacity - I am not saying it is going to happen; I am just teasing it out - I presume in the context of the Minister of State's review with local authorities, which would say this has become a challenge, he would commit to review it at that stage. That inequity is already built into our planning system with the first-come-first-served principle.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, you have to utilise the existing utilities. I understand the point the Deputy is making, but the way I have constructed this with the notification process to the local authorities will provide us with helpful data. We will know where these have been installed. I felt that was an important part to put in this.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I agree.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That is important for a review of anything. We will have the numbers.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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That notification is crucial. All I am flagging is that when the Minister of State is doing that review, there will need to be a resolution for the data provided in certain locations and places where this problem has emerged. I am just flagging that at this stage, because it will happen. How often it will happen, to what extent and in what areas is not something we will know at this stage.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I suggest it sounds like the Deputy is pre-empting the success of these regulations.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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No. It is a serious point. As constituency politicians, we all know that when something goes wrong and there is a systems failure, we are one of the first people to be called. That is the nature of these things. I find that if you try to anticipate potential problems and design them out from the start - regardless of whether the scheme is successful, depending on your point of view - it is less hassle for everybody further down the line. I look forward to the review and the data being published.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Absolutely. I also look forward to seeing the data. Genuinely, I thank people for their questions. The committee has an important role in being able to tease out regulations. Apologies, I thought everyone was finished.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the fact that we will know by the end of the month if these regulations will be in place. That is fabulous and fantastic. As regards the guidelines for the construction methods that may be used, is it confined to bricks and mortar? Can you use modular construction or steel units?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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You can use traditional building methods or you can use units that have been constructed off site, subject to being able to satisfy certification and building standards as set out in the regulations.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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There are no guidelines as regards design.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Not in terms of design, but we will have updated criteria we will be setting out as part of the circular and the guidance attached to it. Obviously, we have agrément certification for offsite 3D modular. However, as I said, it does not have to be modular. I know this has been termed "the modular proposal" or whatever words people want to describe it with, but it is important to say that this can also be a traditional build.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister. Well done.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I have a couple of questions. Does the Minister of State have an estimate of how many of these units he expects to be developed in the first and second years?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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No, we do not. As I said, we will have the data. Obviously, people will have to satisfy the regulations and the criteria in order to avail of the exemption before the committee this evening. I want to be able to provide options for people.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I understand that.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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There is nobody forcing anyone to avail of an exemption, so I cannot predict what an individual owner of a property will do.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Is that not an oversight? The Minister of State is making a very significant change in planning regulations with no idea of how many units he expects to be developed. He has no sense of the impact this is going to have.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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How does the Deputy suggest I get that data?

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I do not know. The Government could make data decisions based on the potential number of 350,000 that has been put forward. It could also look at area-based aspects. There are many ways of doing it.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I repeat that it is not about numbers here; it is about providing options. I cannot pre-empt that. I do not know the size of the Deputy's back garden or whether he has sufficient space to be able to avail of this exemption. If he does, I do not know whether he would choose to install one. I know I cannot install one because I do not have sufficient space to the rear of my property.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I just think it is poor policymaking. My other question, on occupancy, follows up from a previous question. What is to stop someone putting five or six beds in a unit and renting it out?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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That would not be in compliance with the standards. We have standards of 32 sq. m for a studio, and 45 sq. m for a one-bedroom. These are the sizes that are provided for. If you have five bedrooms, as the Deputy described, you would have to have a-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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No, five beds in the unit-----

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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-----bigger unit and in-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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-----and rent it out to ten people.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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-----such a case you would not be able to avail of the exemption because the unit would not be sufficient.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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You build it, you get all your exemptions and then you put ten beds in it.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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As I said, in order to be able to facilitate that number of people, it would have to be a bigger unit. We are providing here for a 45 sq. m unit. It would not be able to sustain what the Deputy is describing.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Where is the enforcement of the subsequent use of that unit? That is my point. How will that be enforced?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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The enforcement is on the planning condition, which-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I know, but subsequent to that.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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------is a matter for the local authority for enforcement. I am not gathering the Deputy's exact question.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Okay. I think this is going to be a significant aspect of the matter.

The Minister of State said earlier that this is not about renting. It is made very clear in No. 19 that a dwelling may not be used for short-term letting. How and who is going to enforce that? The Minister of State said it is not about giving local authorities extra work. We know it is highly likely that there will be a proliferation of the use of these units as Airbnb rentals. The only way the Government is going to prevent that is for our local authorities to spend a significant amount of time in the coming years trying to stop the use of these units as short-term lets.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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As the Deputy knows, the national planning statement relating to short-term lets will prevent people from being able to advertise on a short-term letting platform unless they are able to satisfy planning compliance. If somebody is availing of this exemption, you cannot have it for a short-term let, so you will not satisfy compliance with planning.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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It is a self-certification that you have planning for those short-term lets.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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Can the Deputy tell me how he would meet the criteria for going on the short-term register? You will not be able to demonstrate planning compliance because if you are looking to use your auxiliary dwelling unit for short-term letting-----

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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But on the short-term register, you are self-declaring.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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-----you do not qualify for this exemption.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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On the register you will be self-declaring. My understanding is that on the short-term let registry, you self-declare that you have met the planning guidelines.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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You will not be able to satisfy planning compliance if your intended use for this auxiliary dwelling unit is for short-term letting. It cannot be clearer in the regulation.

Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I suggest that many issues in relation to this are going to come back to planners and local authorities, which will spend resources enforcing this.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I have a question on the 350,000 figure I have heard, which I think is pie in the sky. The Minister of State might not know the answer to this question, but he may be able to provide a guideline figure. Does he have any idea of how many people are availing of the rent-a-room scheme that is in place?

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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According to the most recent data we have, from 2024, just over 18,000 people were availing of the rent-a-room scheme.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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That sort of gives a guideline of the maximum possible number of people who might do something like this. The rent-a-room scheme is not as expensive as putting a unit at the back of the house. Maybe I am thinking wrong it but it just came into my head that it might be some sort of guideline. When I heard 350,000 I thought it was unlikely to happen. I thank the Minister of State.

John Cummins (Waterford, Fine Gael)
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I thank all members for their engagement. It is important we tease out these items at the committee. As a former member, I have good respect for the work of the committee. I thank members for facilitating this session and I hope I was able to answer all the questions.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister of State and his officials. That concludes our consideration of this matter. I propose that the committee requests the clerk to the committee to inform the Dáil and Seanad accordingly. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before I conclude I thank the staff of the committee secretariat for their work. Ours has probably been one of the busiest committees in the Houses of Oireachtas over the last year so I thank them for all their help and support. I thank members. We have always had very strong attendance at our meetings. We work quite collegially. While we might disagree and have different opinions, we work together well as a committee to tease out the issues and to challenge the Department. The Department has been in here on numerous occasions over the last 12 months and that is the way it should be. It is about working with the Minister and Ministers of State but also challenging them and questioning them and questioning the officials. With a lot of the legislation we have dealt with, changes have been made from this room due to us teasing it out and giving proper scrutiny to it. I thank all members for your courtesy and your work as we head into the summer recess. I wish everybody well and hope everyone gets the opportunity for some rest to recharge the batteries.