John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Today, we are engaging with Radió Teilifís Éireann, RTÉ, in advance of its coming into the remit of the C and AG and being directly accountable to the public accounts committee.

On behalf of the committee, I welcome officials from RTÉ: Mr. Kevin Bakhurst, director general; Mr. Adrian Lynch, deputy director general and director of audiences, channels and marketing; Ms Annette Malone, chief people officer; Ms Eleanor O'Shaughnessy, chief risk and compliance officer; and Mr. Robert Shortt, company secretary. We are also joined by officials from the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport, who are attending in a representative capacity: Mr. Stephen Ryan, principal officer, public service media governance and policy unit; and Mr. Adam Larragy, principal officer, public service media financing and performance unit. Finally, we are joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, including Mr. Seamus McCarthy, Comptroller and Auditor General, who is a permanent witness to the committee, and Ms Paula O'Connor, deputy director of audit. They are all very welcome.

Before we begin, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and Statute, by absolute privilege. This means witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

I call the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. McCarthy, to give his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

I obviously do not comment on RTÉ financial statements as of yet, but I will briefly refer to Vote 33 - Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sports and Media appropriation account, which is or was the source of funding for RTÉ in 2024.

The 2024 appropriation account for Vote 33 is presented under five expenditure programme headings that reflect the breadth of the Department's remit at the time. Programme E, broadcasting, recorded expenditure totalling €304.5 million in 2024. This included funding of €205.5 million issued to RTÉ in the year, from two programme subheads. Teilifís na Gaeilge received €61.5 million and the broadcasting fund, managed by Coimisiún na Meán, received €19.3 million.

Subhead E7 is titled Coimisiún na Meán and was previously used to fund the agency's activities before it began to receive industry levy income. The charge of €4.3 million reported for 2024 relates to payment by the Department of fines for late transposition of the 2018 EU audiovisual media services directive.

I drew attention to this loss in my audit report, and the committee may wish to pursue that matter with the Accounting Officer on another occasion.

Expenditure under the broadcasting programme is linked to the receipt of appropriations-in-aid from sales of television licences through An Post, and a contribution from the Department of Social Protection in respect of free TV licences for State pensioners. The TV licence receipts in 2024 totalled just under €195 million. This represented a drop of 3.2% on the €201 million received in 2023, and a cumulative drop of 11.8% from the €221 million in 2022.

Arising from standard Government accounting rules, the licence fee income is not formally ring-fenced for any specific purpose. However, there is statutory provision for the Minister for Culture, Communications and Sport to provide funding to RTÉ and to the broadcasting and media fund of amounts equivalent to the receipts. Subhead E3 is the licence-related funding for RTÉ, and amounted to €173.5 million in 2024. Separately, RTÉ received funding of €32 million under subhead E8, which represents Exchequer funding.

As members will be aware, the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2026 proposes to provide a mandate for the audit by my office of RTÉ's financial statements and the establishment of direct accountability for the director general to this committee in respect of financial matters and value for money. I already audit TG4 and Coimisiún na Meán.

Significant changes are also proposed in the Bill in relation to the oversight of RTÉ and TG4 by Coimisiún na Meán and by the Department, and in relation to the operation of the broadcasting fund. Ensuring effective and practical reforms that strike the right balance between necessary operational independence for public service broadcasters and meaningful public accountability by their management is a complex challenge.

I understand the Bill is currently before Dáil Éireann. In anticipation of the passing of the Bill, staff from my office have met with the director general and other senior RTÉ officials to discuss practical steps we can take now to ensure that interim audit work in anticipation of the 2026 financial statements can commence at the earliest possible time. The focus of this early engagement is on overall systems and controls and the broader operating environment of RTÉ. Review of detailed financial or governance records or other data depends on the audit provisions of the Bill being enacted and commenced. I will keep the committee informed of developments in this regard, as required. I apologise for my non-broadcast-quality voice this morning.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McCarthy. Before I ask the director general to make his opening statement, I want to acknowledge the offer he made to come before our committee this morning. It was an offer we were only too glad to accept. The last time Mr. Bakhurst appeared before the committee was in 2023 and I am conscious that the necessary legislation to bring RTÉ under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General, and to ensure there is proper scrutiny from the Committee of Public Accounts, is making its way through the process and is due to move to Committee Stage in September. That legislation is necessary. It is critical to ensure that the serious issues we will discuss today at length can be properly and forensically reviewed through the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General and properly scrutinised and held to account by the committee.

Mr. Bakhurst has engaged with the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General in advance of this legislation going through and I am sure that openness will be shown here today. I am sure if there are any other issues that may be of concern in RTÉ, which will, ultimately, come out through the auditing by the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General and potentially end up here before the committee, that Mr Blackhurst will be open and transparent with members today.

I ask Mr. Bakhurst, as set out in the letter of invitation, to deliver his opening statement, for which he has five minutes.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I thank the committee for the invitation to attend today. RTÉ fully recognises the committee's interest in the management of public funds and in the governance and accountability arrangements that underpin public service media. We welcome the opportunity to update the committee on the significant reforms undertaken over the past few years, the progress made in strengthening governance and oversight and the steps being taken in advance of the extension of the Comptroller and Auditor General's remit to RTÉ.

RTÉ’s latest attendance at this committee was in October 2023. I am pleased to assure committee members that since that time significant governance reforms have been undertaken, the new direction strategy is being implemented, there has been a strengthening of our financial position and a new organisation culture is being formed. In 2023, public trust in RTÉ fell to a record low. Thanks to the work I have just outlined, and the dedication and commitment of colleagues in the organisation and, indeed, the independent sector, we have made good gains in trust restoration, with public perceptions of the value that RTÉ offers to society now at a level higher than before the crisis.

The reforms undertaken since 2023 have not been about governance for its own sake; they have been about restoring trust, strengthening accountability and ensuring that RTÉ can continue to deliver value to the public. Significant progress has been made, although important work remains to be done. We are committed to completing that work and to ensuring that RTÉ operates to the highest standards of transparency, governance and public accountability. We have completed almost 80% of the expert advisory committee recommendations from 2024. The remaining elements are being implemented and embedded through enhanced assurance mechanisms, with completion expected during 2027.

On the HR front, the substantial review of employee classifications is also almost complete. RTÉ’s policy of employment first has extended to on-air presenters, with the transitioning of more than 30 presenters to employment, refining approval protocols and aligning all contractor decisions with employment legislation and best practice. Parallel progress has been achieved in concluding PRSI classification matters with the Department of Social Protection, with 90% of cases finalised and key appeals successfully informing future determinations. New processes in operation should ensure that kind of ambiguity never arises again. The new remuneration policy, which incorporates the expert advisory committee's recommendations, was formally approved by the board earlier this year. More work lies ahead to ensure that our remuneration framework, aligned with the organisation’s new role and grade review, is clearer and offers clear pathways for those who wish to progress further.

Historical employment and contracting arrangements within RTÉ evolved over many decades and, in some cases, lacked the consistency and clarity that would rightly be expected today. Addressing these legacy arrangements is complex, particularly in an organisation with over 160 employment grades and multiple categories of engagement. Nevertheless, the RTÉ leadership team remains committed to resolving outstanding issues transparently, ensuring compliance and providing a fair and consistent framework for staff and contractors alike.

In terms of where we are strategically and financially, we are now in the second year of the new direction strategy. A formal transformation programme has been devised and continues to be executed with oversight from the RTÉ board. We have continued to develop our digital offering. The RTÉ Player is now attracting record numbers, we have just launched our new news app, with 3.1 million downloads to date and approximately 700,000 unique users a week, and in the coming months will be launching our new audio app, which will feature new podcasts as created and commissioned by our podcast unit.

RTÉ has reversed the trend of reporting deficits and strengthened our financial position. This result has been driven by tighter cost controls and supported by our new commercial strategy, which has driven digital revenue and is paying dividends. It is underpinned by the multi-annual funding commitment that was made in 2024. That certainty has enabled proper planning and contracting and we appeal very strongly that a similar commitment be made in 2027 when this next comes up for review. As highlighted by a recent review undertaken by Coimisiún na Meán, there remains a recognised funding challenge for public service media in Ireland. The commitment to the first multi-annual funding agreement was a critical step in addressing this funding volatility.

For its part, RTÉ is delivering, as evidenced in the formal performance commitments which we have supplied to the committee. RTÉ met 96% of its performance commitments in 2025, compared with 90% in 2024.

This reflects continued improvement in the organisation's ability to translate strategic objectives into measurable delivery. Our capital investments and strategic projects work is on budget and on track. The new HR system was tendered for last year and is expected to be completed in early 2027. This will be a valuable tool in generating better quality real-time data and reporting on a range of HR-related issues.

It is also worth highlighting that all of this work continues within a robust structure of oversight, reporting and accountability, as illustrated in the briefing note supplied. The C and AG has formally commenced the audit of RTÉ's financial statements, with effect from 1 July 2026, in anticipation of the enactment of the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2026. Strengthened governance structures, enhanced financial controls, expanded audit and risk oversight, improved reporting arrangements and greater transparency are all intended to ensure that RTÉ is fully prepared for this important change in accountability.

RTÉ continues to offer a valued public service. Access to news and current affairs, national culture, sport, content in the Irish language and the broader provision of programming of public service value form the bedrock of the New Direction strategy and the promises made by RTÉ in relation to the funding agreement made in 2024. RTÉ delivered 45 of the 50 most watched television programmes in 2025. It serves over 2 million radio listeners each week and, along with local radio, it is jointly the country's most trusted news source. Alongside this, we continue to invest in Irish language content and provide a wide array of free-to-air sports, original drama and investment in the independent production sector. These outcomes demonstrate the public value that RTÉ continues to provide. The momentum around organisation transformation continues. We are committed to ensuring that RTÉ remains relevant and viable and a key part of life in Ireland.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Bakhurst. We will suspend the meeting at about 12.45 p.m. for a break of 15 minutes or thereabouts. We will resume shortly afterwards. I now open the floor to members. The lead speaker today is Deputy Boland, who has 15 minutes. All other speakers will have ten minutes. If time permits, we will allow members back in for a shorter second round of supplementary questions.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are all very welcome. I am very glad to hear the radio figures. It is clear that video has not killed the radio star. That is very positive. In an age of misinformation and disinformation, trust in media sources has never seen so important. We are three years into these reforms but I am not hearing a credible plan for RTÉ to sustain itself. What does that look like? What will RTÉ look like? Will it continue to need to rely on State funding?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

As we know, in the case of RTÉ, public service media is funded by both public funding and commercial funding. That has been the case for decades. We are driving commercial funding as hard as we can but, in the end, in our view, public service media is a public good and requires public investment. The Deputy touched on trusted news and current affairs programming. An awful lot of what we provide is not commercially attractive. It is a public service. In my view, it is a really important part of what a public service media organisation provides to society. There is a decision for every society to make, which is-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What is the number RTÉ will be going to the State with in 2028?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We have not started discussions about that. The key thing is that, when we were given the multi-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is two years out.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Surely RTÉ has made some assessment as to what it is likely to-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We are currently in the middle of working on a five-year plan as to what we need for the organisation to deliver the rest of the strategy.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Is the plan that there will always be a need for a substantial amount of funding from the State?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

That is a question for-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Can RTÉ reduce its costs?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We can, yes.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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After three years of reform, I am not hearing the plan.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The plan at the moment is that we will need public funding. We will need funding from either the licence fee or a similar source of public funding.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Will the amount of public funding be reduced as RTÉ gets its house in order?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

There are choices to be made by the regulator, the Oireachtas and the Government. We have a very wide remit to deliver, much of which costs quite a lot of money but makes no money commercially. This includes Irish-language content, arts and culture, news and current affairs, investigative journalism and high-quality documentaries. None of those are cost free. They need some sort of public funding. Whether that public funding comes via the current licence fee arrangement with some direct funding or via a new way of funding the organisation will, in the end, be a question for the Department, the Oireachtas and this committee. However, we will need public funding unless we drastically reduce our remit, which is not our intention at the moment.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Let us get into the organisation. I understand that there is another external consultation ongoing into the review of the organisation, the news production media division and other divisions. When and why were those consultants appointed?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We said we would review every part of the organisation to see how it is operating, how efficiently it is operating and what we need to do to future-proof it.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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When were these consultants appointed?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The news consultant was appointed a few months ago. He has nearly completed his report.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That had not been done previously. There had been no review of the news organisation. Is that correct?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

There had not been an external review of the news organisation previously. There is currently a review of our operations part of the organisation under way.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Will the final report be published?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We do intend to publish a version and to give a version to the staff.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It will be published publicly.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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In the procurement of such services, does RTÉ comply with the same rules as other State organisations?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes, absolutely.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is fully compliant.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes, we are fully compliant.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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On procurement in general, something the committee considers is whether any element of a Department's or agency's procurement is non-compliant. Does Mr. Bakhurst have an assessment of the level of non-compliant procurement in RTÉ? Every agency has some level.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We have a very strong procurement function. All of the-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst have a number for me?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Do we have any non-compliant procurement? As far as-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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RTÉ would be the only organisation or Department to come before this committee that did not.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I do not think we do. I think we have a very-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I would appreciate it if RTÉ were to write to the committee to follow up.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We will come back to the Deputy with that but I am not aware of any non-compliance. We have a very strong procurement function. That probably frustrates some people in the organisation because it takes a bit of time.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What is the optimal number of employees?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

That depends on the remit and the introduction of new technologies, including AI. Under the New Direction-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I am struggling here. After three years of not hearing about a proper financial operating model or plan, I am not hearing a target number of employees.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I am sorry but, with respect, that was all published alongside our New Direction strategy. If the Deputy were to read that strategy, she would see-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I am not hearing figures. I am not hearing the numbers.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I can give the Deputy the figures. They were in the New Direction strategy. We said that 400 people would leave the organisation over the course of the strategy.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Where are we with that?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

As of the end of last year, 100 had left.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How many availed of voluntary redundancy last year?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Sixty-seven took voluntary redundancy and 30 exited through retirement or resignation and were not replaced.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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When did RTÉ submit the voluntary redundancy scheme for this year to the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It has been a process. The first thing the Department asked of us was an assessment of last year's scheme and how it had operated, to ensure the governance was properly carried out, which we-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is now July. When did RTÉ submit it?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Is the Deputy asking about that document or the-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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No. When did RTÉ submit the application for 2027?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We submitted it on 17 June.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is a bit late.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No. We needed to do the assessment of last year's scheme first.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How many people is it envisaged will avail of redundancy under the scheme?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We are going to try to maximise the number we can get out.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What is the number?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It will be between 40 and 60 in the next one.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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How are we ever going to get to 400?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We will get there over time. We are confident. We said there would be up to 400 and we will get-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Why is it being done piecemeal at a snail's pace?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

That is the only way to do it unless you go with compulsory redundancies, which we are not prepared to do.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Bakhurst is saying that people are not applying for redundancy.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, people did apply. We had 300 applications last year. The reason we are doing it over a period of time is that, as you change-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It does not really add up.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Sorry; as you change the organisation, you cannot let people go until you put some content out into the independent sector. That cannot be done overnight. You cannot put stuff into the independent sector until people have exited the organisation. It has to happen over a period of time as you change the organisation.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The transformation programme is becoming a permanent programme.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, it is a five-year strategy, as was requested of us.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Let us move on to outsourcing as against in-house production. Does RTÉ prepare full business cases comparing the costs of in-house production against the costs of outsourced production for every single programme that is outsourced?

Does RTÉ publish those business cases?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We do a business case for each programme but, as the Deputy will be aware, public value is not only a question of cost, which is extremely important, but also a question of delivering the best quality programme for our audiences, so there are a number of factors that go into those decisions. It is not simply the cost because the value of something is not just how much we pay for it; it is what the value is to the audience as well. The answer is that for each individual major programme that is outsourced, or major area that is outsourced, we absolutely do a business case.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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For example, as regards "Up for the Match", was there a cost-benefit analysis of-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes, there was.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What was the result of that? How much money is RTÉ saving by outsourcing?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We are not saving money. We are doing an enhanced programme live from Croke Park as opposed to a studio-based programme this year.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Is that necessary? Is it actually costing more to outsource?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

This one is costing a little bit more but, as I said to the Deputy-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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At a time when RTÉ-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Sorry, may I just have a chance to answer the question, please? You take creative decisions on what is best for the audience. "Up for the Match" has not changed for a number of years. It is a programme that is pretty successful. We think it could be more successful and more ambitious, so the way we have done that is to put it out for ideas to the independent sector. There was a proper process that was gone through and a request for ideas. We chose the very best creative idea, and that is live from Croke Park. If you do an outside broadcast, OB, it inevitably will add a bit of cost to it, but it will be a better programme for the audience. That is the objective.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It would be very important that RTÉ write to this committee and give us an overall figure in terms of all the programmes that have been outsourced and whether there is any cost saving to RTÉ in the outsourcing of those programmes.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The overall costs are published every year by RTÉ in our independent production unit report and they would be available-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Of outsourcing.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes. Those are all the programmes we commission from the independent sector.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What is the cost saving?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Sorry, what is the overall cost?

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I asked Mr. Bakhurst what the cost saving is. I want to know what the cost saving is of outsourcing these programmes.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Programme by programme, it is impossible to say. You commission a new drama. There is not a cost saving necessarily on-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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When you do a cost-benefit analysis-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We do.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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-----you assess how much it costs-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We do, but it is not-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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-----to in-house it and you assess how much it is going to-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Sorry, but it is not solely about whether it is a cheaper programme. We are not in the business of being cheap as chips. We are in the business of providing high-quality content at increasingly-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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But my understanding is that part of outsourcing these was to achieve some cost-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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-----reduction or cost-efficiency.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It is coming in the legislation that we are going to be required to outsource 25% of our independent productions, so-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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So there is no cost saving to the taxpayer whatsoever.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

There are cost savings on some of them; there are not cost savings on all of them. It is not the only correct-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I want to know what that total figure is, whether it is-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The total figure for independent productions last year was €47 million.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but I want to know whether it is a minus or a plus to the taxpayer on the cost-benefit analysis.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

As I have just tried to explain to the Deputy, some individual projects are cheaper and some are more expensive. In the end, this is about weighing up how much it costs and whether it is-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Okay, let us move on.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, let us not move on because-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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No, sorry. We are moving on.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I am trying to answer the Deputy's questions.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I want to move on to transport and hospitality. Is there a framework as to the use of limousines and why someone would be offered a limousine as opposed to a taxi?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes, and we would not necessarily call them limousines. They are professional drivers. There is a framework. You have to have a business need for it and it is approved by the individual finance-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is a documented business case.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes. There are a number of categories of eligibility.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Is the procedure one that any employee of RTÉ could find so they would know whether-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It has to be signed off within the programme team, yes.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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RTÉ does not have a written procedure as to the use of taxis and limousines.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, but there are criteria that are-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Why does RTÉ not have a written procedure?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Because it is well-known as to what they can be used for. There is a-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is not good enough. You have to have clear written procedures to avoid abuse.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

There is no abuse of this, and it is very carefully overseen by the finance-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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But how do people know?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Because each one of those has to be agreed by the senior person in the programme and, ultimately, agreed by finance.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Are any employees of RTÉ ever eligible for limousines?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, not normal employees. We might take presenters out to a particular deployment where we have to send a car for them, which can be a taxi.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Why a limousine over a taxi?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It is not a limousine. It is a professional driver over a taxi. Because it would be an assigned-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The cost difference is huge.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It is not huge, actually. If you book a taxi and it has to wait for a few hours, it is not necessarily a huge difference in cost. The Deputy will have seen from the documents we have provided that our spend on professional drivers has gone down 50%, roughly, in the past three years, so there is a tight control-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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RTÉ is in a crisis.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is supposed to be tightening its belt, so I am not going to applaud Mr. Bakhurst for that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, but I am just demonstrating that we are tightening our belts. In addition, as regards professional drivers, the vast majority are for things like guests for "The Late Late Show" who might fly in, for example. They would be high profile-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Are taxis not sufficient for them?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, they are not. We are not a tin-pot broadcaster. We are a professional broadcaster. If you are going to attract top talent and top guests, you have to provide a decent service when they get here.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What are these non-taxable hospitality vouchers-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I do not know what-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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-----that employees avail of? There is about €2.5 million in non-taxable hospitality vouchers. Can anyone speak to them?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I am sorry, I do not know what the Deputy is asking.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I do not know what they are either. That is why I am asking Mr. Bakhurst.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, I do not know what the Deputy is asking about there.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I do not know about €2.5 million in hospitality vouchers. I do not know what she is asking about.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Bakhurst does not know where €2.5 million is going.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There is reference in the hospitality section to staff vouchers. Is that the figure?

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is €2.059 million.

Ms Annette Malone:

I am not a hundred per cent sure, but that might have been from the pay award we negotiated with the unions. There was a staff voucher given as part of that pay award.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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These are non-taxable vouchers issued to employees. What is the procedure around that? What is the framework? The witnesses cannot even tell me where €2.5 million is going.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

In terms of hospitality-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Sorry. There was a substantial increase over 2023. It was €1.2 million in 2023 and increased to €2.4 million in 2024.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

As part of the overall pay agreement, we issued a voucher to staff, which, as the Deputy knows, a lot of companies do because it is very tax efficient.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, a voucher for what?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It was part of the pay agreement. It was an agreement with the unions in terms of the overall pay deal.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Then why is €319,000 of that down here as business?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Some of those would involve staff who would get hospitality vouchers to use in the RTÉ canteen if, for example, they have guests in or children in for a particular programme or whatever. They can use that to pay for food and drink inside RTÉ or, for example, for guests who come in for some of the big programmes where there is hospitality.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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This is a continuing liability, so is there a framework around the use of these vouchers?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes, there is a framework.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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A written framework?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. Bakhurst please provide that to the committee?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes, we can.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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In terms of Montrose, what is the plan?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The plan, which we are in the middle of trying to deliver at the moment, is that we are going to downsize in Montrose to one end of the campus and try to dispose of the rest of the campus. We are going to be in a smaller premises on Montrose within the next six or seven years, hopefully.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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When will we see the plan?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We are finalising the plan. We are going to take it to the board finally in the coming weeks. It has been a year and a half in progression. We have taken on property consultants and architects to do the plan and to get it properly priced and so on.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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RTÉ might update the committee-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We absolutely will do so. This is going to be a significant thing for RTÉ because we do want to downsize and we want to reduce overheads, and that will be the appropriate thing to do as the organisation gets smaller. At the same time, we will be looking to sell a significant amount of the campus at Montrose as well in due course, which we obviously need to get Government permission to do. We have already entered into early discussions with the Land Development Agency about that.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before us. I want to start with TV licence payment and non-payment figures. Could the witnesses tell me the number of households that should be paying the TV licence, legally speaking, who are not currently, as both a total figure and a percentage?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I will give the Deputy the percentage figures. As he will have seen from the paper, there are three categories of people you would be looking at. There is the TV licence evasion rate, which is around 18%, and then there are the households that say they either do not have a TV or are using broadband to connect to the TV, which is a significant loophole in this country that overall, between them, has grown significantly. Those figures are 20% now.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Mr. Bakhurst is saying 18% of those who should be paying their TV licence are not.

That is a significant understatement of the rate of non-payment, which is a combination of people not being able to afford to pay a regressive tax and a conscious boycott. I will give Mr. Bakhurst my figures. He can tell me where I am wrong from his perspective, and we can dig into it. The total number of potentially liable households in the State is 1.97 million. A total of 11% of those do not have TVs. That is minus 217,000. That leaves us at about 1.77 million. The Department of Social Protection pays for about 500,000 licences. That leaves us at about 1.25 million. A total of 768,000 people in 2025 paid for a TV licence. That leaves about 485,000 not paying who are eligible. The rate of non-payment rather than being 18% is 39%. Where have I gone wrong with that figure?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The numbers that we get are from An Post so the numbers we have provided are from An Post which collects the licence fee. It has given us the percentage and numbers regarding those who are not paying the licence fee or say that they are a non-TV home.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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It starts off at about 2 million and lose those who do not have TVs-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The Deputy went through those figures quite quickly there-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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We start with about 2 million. About 217,000 do not have TVs. That leaves us with 1.77 million. The Department of Social Protection takes care of 500,000. We know 768,000 people pay the TV licence. That leaves about 485,000 who are not paying. A total of 485,000 out of 1.25 million is about 39% rate of non-payment.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The discrepancy might be the 11% that Deputy said do not have TVs. It is nearer 20% who either do not have TVs or access it via broadband.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Yes. Is Mr. Bakhurst is saying that if a person has a TV that accesses the television channels via broadband, he or she is not eligible to pay the TV licence?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

That is the law of the land.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Is Mr. Bakhurst saying that the Department, which issues ads saying, "If you have a television, you must have a TV licence", is wrong? These ads are played regularly on RTÉ. It says very clearly that if you have a TV, you must have a TV licence.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes. It is shorthand, but the details are as I have given to the Deputy.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Is Mr. Bakhurst saying that the tvlicence.ie website, which states that if you have a television, "it is your legal obligation to have a valid TV licence" is wrong?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

If a person has a TV and access TV via the TV set, then yes. It is hard to distil the message into-----

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

As the Deputy knows, it is a technical term of having the standard mode of reception in the TV and so on. Most of those homes that apply to be no TV are the people who are watching on tablet, player and so on. This-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Let us forget about the tablet and player; this is about people with a TV. If I have a TV and I access web-only services and pay the TV licence, do I get my money back? I listen to all these ads telling me that if I have a TV, I have to pay a TV licence. The Government website says very clearly that if a household has a TV that it has to pay a TV licence. Do I get my money back?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

That is not a question for us. We do not do the TV licence. It is a question for An Post and the Government, but I mean-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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You do not get your money back, do you? Let us be honest.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

If people are in that position, they should that they do not access TV. A lot of people do say that. They have the wherewithal to say it.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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RTÉ is misstating the law in order to make-----

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Can I make a point around that?

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Sure.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

From a messaging point of view, you have got to be as clear as you can be. What this demonstrates is that technology has moved beyond the current legislation and how we capture it. That was gone into in detail in the Future of Media Commission. It was the biggest review of public service media in decades. There are all sorts of anomalies within the system. We all know that. From a messaging point of view, you cannot have all those nuances, I am sure the Deputy will appreciate, in a simple piece of commercial messaging.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I believe RTÉ is misstating the nuances and I believe the reason it is doing it is to make the non-payment figures look less bad than they are. The Broadcasting Act 2009 states: ""television set" means any electronic apparatus capable of receiving and exhibiting television broadcasting services broadcast for general reception...". The key point is "capable of receiving and exhibiting". People do not have to be accessing TV via it, but the device needs to be capable. Any TV is capable of receiving these services.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

First, we do not collect the licence fee. Second, there is no incentive for us to misstate the figures and so on. We do not control the figures. What would the incentive be------

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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The incentive is to make it look like there is not a massive boycott of the TV licence happening, which is very clear.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The figures-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Almost one in two people are boycotting the TV licence for one reason or another rather than one in five.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The figures are not provided by RTÉ. They are provided by An Post.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Interestingly, RTÉ changed its briefing. The original briefing that we got said one thing in terms of it. It stated "According to Nielsen that the estimated population of the proportion of households who are no TV homes stands at 424,000 or 20.8%." RTÉ updated its briefing to change that, because that is not accurate, to distinguish between 11% that are no TV - and we all agree that they do not have to pay the TV licence or legally they are not meant to pay the TV licence - and then it said that there are 10% who have a TV but receive their signal through broadband.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The number still stands. We changed that because there is a nuance to how Nielsen describes it. The same point still stands. Either of those categories do not have to pay a TV licence. That is the reason they are not paying it.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Is it the Department's position that if a household has a TV and it is broadband only contrary to all the ads, it is not required to pay a TV licence?

Mr. Adam Larragy:

It is subtly in the definition of the web TV. The Deputy cited the definition of a "television set". The Act provides for exemptions. Two exemptions are set out in ministerial order. Exception one is a size exception, for example, small devices. The second exception is a technology exemption. A device capable of accessing television services by means of the publicly available Internet only would not be liable. In that category of web TV, that is probably subtly there for the individual while they might be accessing TV only via broadband, the television set might still be capable of receiving service. It might have digital TV tuner and could get Saorview. Regarding the individual's liability, it is for the individual to check if he or she has a liable television set. These are figures coming from a survey. When we get to the individual level, people would have to check. That is the position in terms of the exceptions.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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The Department does not accept that necessarily that the 11% or 10% who are described by Nielsen as being web-only that they are all exempt from it. If they go into a shop and buy a regular TV and they do not hook it up to any TV service, nonetheless if it has the capacity, they are meant to pay it.

Mr. Adam Larragy:

The overall category in the Nielsen study is useful. When we get down to the individual level, there is no data on the individual television itself. In fairness, it is a very important category because there will be a lot of people in that category whose television or the device that they have can only access services by broadband. There is a subtlety that within that category could be a certain number of people who, as the Deputy said, have purchased a smart TV with a digital tuner. When we get down to the granularity of the device, the issue is that these surveys are not a device granular survey. However, it is a very useful category to use because there will be a huge amount of those smart TVs and web TV households that have a TV that can only access via the broadband so it would not be liable. I would not want to give the impression that everyone within that category would or would not. We just do not know the types of TV sets that people have.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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If I go into a shop and look at the TV sets, the vast majority of TV sets that are TVs rather than computer monitors have the capability of accessing TV regularly. Is that not the case?

Mr. Adam Larragy:

A lot of them do. Not to go into brands, but there are different brands. It is much more common in the US for a TV to be sold that can only access broadband. In Europe, it more common that a Samsung TV, for example, will have the digital tuner on it, so you can plug in a-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I wish to go back to Mr. Bakhurst. Does he agree with the recommendation of the Future of Media Commission that "a taxation-based approach offers the best prospect for a sustainable, future-proofed, equitable and publicly acceptable funding model"? In other words, we should do away with this regressive TV licence and we should properly fund public broadcasting - RTÉ and others - by taxation.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

This is never going to be a matter for RTÉ. It is going to be a matter for the Deputies in the Oireachtas and the Government. The Future of Media Commission's recommendations were extremely well-developed and thought through. The vast majority have been enacted. The Deputy touched on a point that is very important. There is a confusion about whether a licence is needed for some TVs. In the UK, if a person watches something via BBC iPlayer, they need a TV licence. Here if you watch something on the RTÉ Player, you do not.

Increasingly, we have got millions of people watching via the player, so there is a loophole there. There is no doubt that at the very least, what devices you watch it on and so on needs to be addressed.

The other thing I will say to the committee and to people is that it is called the TV licence but, do not forget, increasingly it pays for online content, the news app and radio content as well. It is not just about TV programmes. I know that it is based on the TV, as the Deputy spent a long time talking about, but it argues that it needs to be looked at to future-proof the legislation. Whether it is direct taxation, a household charge or a reformed version of the TV licence, it needs to be updated to reflect viewing habits.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will go back to RTÉ's transport services expenditure. I know some of this has been touched on already. We are looking at the figures in the correspondence provided by RTÉ to the committee and there was nearly €250,000 spent on limousine services over the past five years. What types of cars are they? Are they all limousines?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No. As I said before, they are not limousines. They tend to be either minivans, in the case of the orchestra and instruments, or they tend to be a good quality car. We do not specify the quality of the car-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are limousines included in that?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It depends. They are professional drivers-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a "Yes" or "No" question.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, they are-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Surely, if RTÉ books a car, it specifies what type of car or category it needs.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We do not ring up and say, "Can we have a limousine?". We say, "Can we have a decent car with a professional driver?".

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

RTÉ does not specify the type of vehicle at all.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I think that through procurement they tell us what kind of cars they will provide as a service.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does RTÉ select which one-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No. We say those are acceptable brands of car.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That surely does not stack up. If RTÉ goes to book a car to bring a presenter, as Mr. Bakhurst alluded to earlier, who is being collected from the airport, if the driver turns up in a minivan that is able to facilitate equipment-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

They would allocate the type of vehicle depending on the job, so if it is-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

RTÉ does specify what type of car.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Obviously, we say if it is a car or a minivan-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Bakhurst just said that RTÉ does not.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, we do not say that it has got to be a BMW or Mercedes or anything like that. We say what type vehicle in terms of whether it is a van or a car.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does the senior leadership team of RTÉ avail of limousine services?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Never, at all.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, not to the best of my knowledge.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. Bakhurst?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, I do not. I am very happy with taxis and Ubers.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Coming to the taxis, we have been provided with correspondence for one taxi firm for 2025. Is that the only taxi firm that RTÉ uses?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We enter procurement for taxis and we have contracts with a couple of them, but we primarily use one firm.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

RTÉ has contracts with a couple of firms, but only the expenditure for one taxi firm was provided to us in correspondence.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

That is the one we primarily use after the last procurement rather than the other one.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did RTÉ use an additional taxi firm in 2025?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

There may be some Ubers or things like that, but this has been the firm that we use as RTÉ. This is the one that we go through to-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There either was or was not. RTÉ was asked to provided the correspondence. We have been provided with-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We have provided accurate correspondence to the committee.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----€318,000 worth of taxi services with one taxi firm, and no Ubers or additional contracts.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The taxi firm obviously contracts individual drivers but, yes, that would be correct.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was there anything additional to the €318,000 on taxis for 2025?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, not on taxis.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am going to move onto the World Cup qualifying match in Czechia. I know we covered some of this when Mr. Bakhurst attended the media committee, but this committee sought additional information from RTÉ in advance of this sitting. I have to put it on record, as I did publicly last week when the correspondence was presented to us, that I take great exception to the correspondence provided by RTÉ where it stated that given this was the first time that Ireland sought to qualify for the FIFA World Cup since 2002, there was a strong public interest in this match. That comment is a huge disservice to Irish footballers from the past. I am sure they would attest to Mr. Bakhurst that they sought to qualify in every competition. I know that Mr. Bakhurst is going to come back to me with something, but it is in black and white-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

All I am going to say-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I think RTÉ has let itself down with poorly worded communication.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The wording might have been better. What we meant was that they have not qualified since 2002.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I understand what RTÉ meant but that is not what it says.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I understand that.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I have to pull that up as a football fan.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, that is fair enough.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would be letting the Irish footballers that I support down if I did not. Can Mr. Bakhurst tell me how much RTÉ pays for the UEFA Champions League rights a year?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, we cannot say that. It is commercially sensitive.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Because we have to compete for those rights and if you start saying how much you are paying, then people will outbid or underbid you for those rights.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When RTÉ is audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We will make that available to make sure there is value for money, absolutely. We look forward to doing that.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is my understanding that RTÉ pays €3.5 million a year for these rights to a competition that no Irish teams play in. As a football fan, I feel that money could be better spent on broadcasting and promoting our domestic league. Has Mr. Bakhurst anything to say on that?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes. As the Deputy knows, we bid for the FAI rights and unfortunately we lost the FAI rights, which we wanted to get. We spend a huge amount of money on televising the Irish national teams, women's and men's.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not necessarily talking about the Irish national teams here. I am talking about domestic football.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

In terms of the Champions League, there is a huge audience demand for it and, in terms of value for money for the licence fee, we are now the only country in Europe where people get free-to-air Champions League coverage, which the audience really values-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am going to come to that.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Our focus is always on the audience and what it values. It delivers very significant audience numbers for months throughout the year.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It depends on what audience RTÉ is facilitating. The League of Ireland was forced to move away from the State broadcaster because RTÉ refused to show games on a weekly basis.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, that is not true.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is true.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Sorry, it is not true.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I feel that is a really sad indictment on RTÉ-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Sorry, we were outbid on the FAI rights. We did not get a chance to bid for matches every week.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Did RTÉ not get a chance?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No. We did not. We understood that the rights were going to be shared out as previously. We put in a significant bid and the next thing we knew was that we had lost the rights.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. Bakhurst get where I am coming from? We had Shamrock Rovers Football Club in qualifying matches last week and this week and they were not shown on our State broadcaster. We have Bohemian Football Club starting its European football adventure this evening and that is not being shown on our State broadcaster. All the while, if I am correct with these figures, and I stand to be corrected but it is in and around this, we are paying €3.5 million. We are paying that money to UEFA for Champions League football that no Irish football teams are playing in. Only seven games in the FAI Cup are shown on RTÉ. This is in comparison to TG4, which shows 17 women's premier division and women's FAI Cup games on a fraction of the budget that RTÉ gets from the State, and we have got Virgin Media showing 36 games and doing an incredible job trying to promote our league.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

As I said, we were outbid on the FAI rights. In the end, we have to strike a balance between-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. There is no balance here. There is absolutely no balance.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Sorry, can I answer the question?

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not comparable in any way, shape or form. I put it to Mr. Bakhurst that it is not the role of a State broadcaster funded by the taxpayer to pay €3.5 million for Champions League rights to UEFA, which is facilitating the terror state of Israel, might I add, to play in international competitions. Mr. Bakhurst said it himself; there is not one other European country that pays for these rights funded by public money.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, I did not say that.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You did say that. You did because I picked you up on it when I said I would come back-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No. I said we are the only free-to-air-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Exactly.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

In every other-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are the only State broadcaster that buys the Champions League's rights. No other country in the world would spend taxpayers' money to watch English teams playing football week in, week out-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

They are not just English teams. They are European teams.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----while ignoring its own domestic football.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We do not ignore it.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You do.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I am sorry. We lost-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I argue with Mr. Barkhurst that RTÉ does ignore it. If we look at the UK, for example, international football is shown on the BBC - no Champions League.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Correct.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the difference?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The UK licence fee payers are not provided with the same service people are here.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is shameful.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It is not shameful.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I ask you to take away from this-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Sorry, can I just make a point here? We are currently showing 104 matches from the World Cup with enormous audiences across TV and-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not talking about the World Cup.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I am talking about it and I-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not the point of my dispute, Mr. Bakhurst.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It is because Ireland is not in the-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am specifically talking about the League of Ireland and a domestic game that I and thousands of other people show love and support towards on a weekly basis. We are being neglected by our State broadcaster.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We tried to-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The League of Ireland has been neglected by our State broadcaster.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We tried to bid for the FAI games and we were outbid and we were not given a chance to bid for-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not believe that is correct. If that is the case, RTÉ should go back and rebid, stand up as our State broadcaster and support the League of Ireland and domestic football in this country.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

When we get the chance to bid for the games again, we will bid for them.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to move onto the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill. As Mr. Bakhurst knows, I am a member of the media committee and was part of the engagement on that process. What steps is RTÉ taking to prepare for the legislative changes that are due to come?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

There is a whole range of them.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What are they?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We are preparing across the organisation for legislative changes, in particular the spend with the independent sector we have to prepare for. We are preparing for the arrival of the C and AG. We had an initial meeting with him. There is a whole range of preparations going on for the Broadcasting Bill. Does Mr. Lynch want to say any more?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

It obviously depends on which aspect because there is so much in that Bill that is significant.

There are work streams on each part. We have been engaged, obviously, with Mr. Larragy on an ongoing basis for the last year to look at the implications, what needs to be put in place and so on.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will RTÉ continue to be audited by a private firm as well as the Comptroller and Auditor General?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Yes.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For what reason?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We have to be because we have a commercial wing and that is not within the Comptroller and Auditor General's remit. Part of our discussion with the C and AG's staff is how they will closely work with the private audit firm and, we hope, not duplicate where they can avoid duplicating.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

All right. Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

May I just add one point on the sports rights?

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

The vast majority of public service media companies in Europe bid for the Champions League. The BBC would love to have the Champions League. The rights cost in the UK is somewhere north of £1 billion. That is really important to say. It gets significant audiences and people pay their €12 a month. For a certain demographic, namely, 15- to 34-year-olds this is a really strong connection with RTÉ and that has to be said. As the Director General said, we were in a very competitive bidding process, like all these processes, to get those domestic rights, and we lost. That is the reality.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If you will indulge me in this for a minute, Chair-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Just briefly.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----on Mr. Bakhurst's comments on the bidding for the League of Ireland fixtures, can he provide us with any documentation on that to prove RTÉ did not refuse to show a match a week, and that was the breakdown?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes. I do not think it was-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is what Mr. Bakhurst said.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes, I know it is what I said. We bid to show the same amount, the same sort of split with Virgin Media we had previously had and that was our understanding of what the outcome of the process was going to be. Then we were just told "No, sorry, we have got to bid to show them every Friday night and you are out of it".

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. Bakhurst know how many thousands of people support League of Ireland clubs every Friday night?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I do not know exactly, no.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a huge number. Mr. Bakhurst may want to educate himself. It is the highest participation sport in the country. I stand over the comments I made to him. I really feel the domestic football community and the League of Ireland family are neglected by RTÉ. Can Mr. Bakhurst provide any documents on the bidding process-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I will see what we can provide that is not commercially sensitive but I-----

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to the committee, please?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes, absolutely.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If not we will be following up on it. I thank the Chair.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for being here. To come back to the voluntary exit programme, am I correct that the organisation must get to 400 in that programme by 2028?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Up to 400, yes.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it correct that the voluntary exit programme only started in 2025?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Correct.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Bakhurst said that 67 were done in 2025. When he was before the Oireachtas media committee in May, he said RTÉ had not yet submitted the business case for 2026? Is that correct?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

That is correct. We had submitted the review and a letter saying we were going to reply but we had not put the business case in.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The business case was then submitted on 17 June.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Now the witnesses are saying they are looking for between 40 and 60. That is not including retirements.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

That is correct.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So RTÉ will have fewer people through the voluntary exit scheme in this calendar year than in the previous one, notwithstanding the fact there are 300 applications.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We hope to exceed that amount, but you have to put in an estimate of what you think you can get out given the changes that are going on within the organisation, and that you can afford to get out as well because, to be clear, this is paid for out of the overall funding as well. There is not special money that comes with it. We pay for it out of the overall funding of RTÉ. We need to know what we can afford to get out in any given year as well.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For argument's sake, let us take 2025, 2026, 2027 and 2028. Four times 60 is 240, so where is the 400? How is RTÉ getting to 400 if it is going at this rate?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

When we published the new direction strategy, it said up to 400. This is about cost containment, so it will come either from our prox bill or from our non-prox bill in terms of cuts that we will execute elsewhere.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Mr. Lynch is walking back the 400 number.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

No, not at all.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He just did there.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

No, I am making a-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He did it very eloquently, as we have seen in his appearances at previous meetings of this committee-----

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

I thank the Deputy.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----but he did walk it back.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

I did not walk it back, actually.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could he clarify then whether RTÉ is getting to 400 by 2028 or not?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

To explain that what I would say, and as the Director General has said, this is a voluntary exit scheme, so-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With 300 live applicants.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

-----in the first year we had 97 out, in the next two years we are looking for 60 plus ten and ten-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the first year, Mr. Lynch said RTÉ had 67, not 97.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

It was 67 plus 30 suppressions is 97.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let us not confuse matters. Is the 400 to do with voluntary exit programmes or is it to do with-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Sorry, to be clear on this, this is about-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Please be clear, really clear.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I will be as clear as I can.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It cannot be that complicated.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

This is about exiting 400 people over the period and we have always said this is a combination of the voluntary exit scheme and retirements, resignations and closing roles. We had 30 of those last year which we closed. In many ways, those are the best in terms of the-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The 400 represents both retirements-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and people who have applied to the scheme.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

And closing roles of people who retire or resign, yes.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And on the current pace the organisation is going to get to about 240 on the VEP.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the retirement number?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We have about 170-odd due to retire over that period.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was my next question.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

This is not a linear process where we can say, year by year, it is going to be a certain amount because along the way during the strategy there are going to be some very big decisions to be taken about particular things such as the future of "Fair City", and so on. As I said, we need to be very careful each year that we only let those people go where the output is either being stopped or is being done externally. I would much rather do it in one go rather than over four or five years but it is not like that.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Mr. Bakhurst anticipate then that there will be a year, be it 2027 or 2028, when the number of voluntary exits will be much larger than in 2025 and 2026?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

That is my anticipation, yes.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What will that largely relate to? Which area of RTÉ will it be, or will it be a mixture of all areas?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It will be a mixture of a number of areas. There are a number of big calls to take. As I said and as people know, one of them is about the future of "Fair City" and what we do with that.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When Deputy Boland was asking about reviews, Mr. Bakhurst mentioned RTÉ was carrying out two, namely, the news organisation review and the operations review. Maybe he can elaborate. Would the operations review currently taking place feed into those big decisions he is talking about on future voluntary exit programmes?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It will feed into that because part of each of the reviews is looking at what is best practice but also looking at where there are opportunities for efficiencies and changes we can make, whether teams are the right size and there are other new technologies we could introduce to drive efficiency.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Which of the reviews does Mr. Bakhurst think are more significant to the voluntary exit programme? Is it the news organisation review or the operations review?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

At the moment probably operations. I say that because we have always made clear during the strategy that news and current affairs will always be made in-house. From what I have seen the reviews so far and certainly from what I have heard from staff and managers, the core operation in the newsroom is a very efficient, digital-first operation so if we carry on doing that in-house, there is limited room, probably, for efficiencies there whereas there might be more room elsewhere. I should add on reviews that we have done a radio-audio review that we did not bring a consultant in for because it was more straightforward and we felt we had the right people to do it in-house. We look for opportunities and if we have the right people to do it in-house, we can do it in-house.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the operations review, am I correct that is being carried out by a Bruce Baron?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Correct.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is he currently in operations at the BBC, or he was?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

He was, I believe.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

He was formerly in BBC operations.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

He was in the BBC. Is Mr. Bakhurst aware of members of staff at RTÉ having concerns about this review? Is that something that has come to their attention?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It is.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What does Mr. Bakhurst have to say on that?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

All we have said is we will publish this review. There will be concerns but we need to look at how efficient the organisation is. There are always going to be concerns-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A big part of Mr. Bakhurst's arrival, if he does not mind me saying, was all about cultural change, transparency and people in the organisation buying into the organisation.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So my question was first whether he is aware of those concerns-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----in relation to the Bruce Baron review.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Second, what has he to say about those concerns?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Mr. Lynch is overseeing it. Yes, we have had a number of letters from SIPTU members in different parts saying they are concerned about the review - primarily that it was, in some cases, not communicated to them properly by their managers, which I accept. I was talking to the staff engagement group about this exact matter yesterday. In the end-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am sorry, but when Mr. Bakhurst says he accepts, is he saying his managers underperformed in not communicating correctly to the staff in relation to the Bruce Baron review?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

There are probably one or two managers who should have done more to communicate the review and what it was about.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How have we arrived at a situation like this, where, once again, cultural change is reportedly taking place in RTÉ, yet a series of workers within the organisation, Mr. Bakhurst's managers, for whom he is responsible, are not implementing the kind of culture Mr. Bakhurst says he wants in the organisation? I want to address this to the CEO. How can this happen under his watch? He cannot keep coming back and apologising for another culture failure.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I am not coming back and apologising. I am saying that change is very difficult and there are members of staff who feel threatened by it. I totally understand that and I meet-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How will that be remedied?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It is being remedied. When we hear that things are not being communicated, we will ask why this is the case. I know that in some areas-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not a remedy. I am not saying "things". This is a specific issue. There is a review currently being carried out by Bruce Barron. As I understand it, he appeared on live studio floors without members of staff knowing who he was or what his role was.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I do not think the Deputy's briefing on that is accurate. Mr. Barron has been given a remit to look around, see how people work and talk to them. The review in news and current affairs was-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is it not the difficulty-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Sorry, can I just speak?

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, you cannot, because I ask the questions. Is it not the difficulty-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I am trying to answer your question.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

You can answer the question; just let me frame it. Is it not the difficulty that Mr. Bakhurst has acknowledged that his senior managers did not communicate to staff properly about this Bruce Barron review and that they have concerns in relation to it? Mr. Bakhurst is saying that my briefing is incorrect but if there is no transparency for the people who work in the organisation as to what the purpose of the review is, of course rumours and whatever else will emerge in relation to it. Mr. Bakhurst has to accept that is what happens when the culture of transparency dies.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

As I said, I accept that in a couple of areas there should have been better communication by the managers, but-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the remedy for this specific issue in respect of the Bruce Barron review? What is the remedy for the challenge that Mr. Bakhurst has identified?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Interestingly, when I met the staff engagement group yesterday I was told by one person from operations that it was very well communicated to them. Their suggestion was that we send a similar communication out now to explain what the review is about to the whole of operations, so that we can make sure everyone has it, rather than relying on individual mangers to brief them properly, which is what we did rely on.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If I understand correctly, Mr. Bakhurst is saying that it was well communicated to one part of the organisation.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes, by one or two of the managers in operations.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Why was it done differently by other managers?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We devolve responsibility to junior managers. I cannot go and brief all members of staff-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is it the junior managers' fault for not divulging the information correctly?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I am not going to throw any individual members of staff under the bus but it should have been better communicated in some areas. I accepted that when I met the staff yesterday. It was well communicated in other areas. In terms of the news review-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is this operations review now over?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No, it is ongoing.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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For the staff who felt it was not communicated to them well, which Mr. Bakhurst has acknowledged, what level of understanding about this review will they now receive?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

As I said, as of yesterday, the idea is that we will try to give the communication that was well received by the other part of operations. That is what I would like to do. Mr. Lynch-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Lynch is bursting to get in.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

For example, the news review was announced at a town hall-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I was talking only about the Barron review. I ask Mr. Lynch to deal just with the Bruce Barron organisation review and not the news review. That is an issue I will come back to.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

There are two steps to the answer because they are interrelated. About 380 people work in the news division. The consultant met over 200 of them on a one-to-one basis. What was the thinking behind that? The consultant has done lots of news rooms around Europe. He said to me that one of the keys-----

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I have not heard any concerns about this review, so I do not know why Mr. Lynch is talking about the good review. I am asking him to talk about the Bruce Barron review.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

That is fine but I want to make a key point here.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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As briefly as you can, because we are over time here.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I do not know why Mr. Lynch cannot deal with it.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

I will if I am allowed to answer. The consultant said that the key thing was that junior members of staff needed to be involved in this. This was why he talked to 200 people. That went fine. Obviously, there was a communication disconnect in terms of the operations. Part of that is the fact that not everybody in operations is on email. We have gone back and spoken to the managers. There was very clear email communication which reflected the terms of reference of the review. We have now gone further and shared the terms of reference of the review with the union as well, for everybody to see. There is complete transparency regarding what the review is about.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Will the witnesses share the terms of reference with the committee as well?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Sure.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How long has this review been ongoing?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The operations review?

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It has been under way for a few weeks.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How was the tender process initiated?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I will ask Mr. Lynch to answer that as he actually ran it.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

Both of these reviews are under €50,000 so it was a request for quotation, RFQ, and they were put out to the marketplace. There was full procurement in both cases. It is not a case of expensive consultants coming in who are costing hundreds of thousands of euro. It is actually a case of sourcing people within the marketplace who have the expertise and understanding to go into the news room or operations. They are not about simply slash-and-burn rationalisation. This is about multi-skilling and the future. It is not simply about operational efficiency.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How did Mr. Lynch go to the market place to find the best-suited people?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

It was through a number of different avenues. One was the European Broadcasting Union. This represents public service media companies across Europe. It is key because it has a very good network. That was one way. It was just through networks, trying to find who would be good. I had never met either of the individuals before. I want to be clear about that. It was a matter of sourcing people with expertise. If someone is going into a news room, for example, with 300 experienced journalists-----

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I understand that. When is the report on this review expected?

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

The news one will be done in August and the production and media services one will be done in September.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I assume those will be shared with the committee once they are published.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

No problem. I am very happy to.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Bakhurst said that RTÉ is not a tin-pot organisation. I think that, of all the adjectives that have described the organisation's expenditure in recent times, that was probably not one with which RTÉ was labelled. However, it is the nature of the questioning and the work we do in this committee. In the Irish Examiner today Louise Burne confirms that the Minister has said that under no circumstances will there be a second three-year rolling programme. It struck me that Mr. Bakhurst and the Minister seem to be communicating via the media over the past couple of days. What is the nature of Mr. Bakhurst's relationship or engagement with the Minister?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I have a good relationship with the Minister. I have not been communicating via the media. I put out a statement yesterday because there was one report in one newspaper that was wholly inaccurate. We wanted to correct it before we appeared before the committee. We did get bids for interviews and I said that I was not going to do any interviews before the committee, as I thought it would be discourteous, but-----

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Had Mr. Bakhurst heard the Minister's sentiments before reading about them this morning in the Irish Examiner?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I have not read about them in the Irish Examiner yet. As I say, we have not even started discussions with the Minister or his officials yet.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is no need to discuss them. He said that under no circumstances will there be an additional three-year rolling programme. Where does that leave Mr. Bakhurst in terms of the organisation's commercial standing to make up that potential deficit?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

As I have said before, the multi-year funding deal has been critically important for us having the confidence to deliver the strategy. I have said before to a number of senior politicians that it is a five-year strategy. We need to know what the income is year to year if we are going to make significant investments in digital and if we are going to make significant commissions in expensive things like high-quality drama and buying sports rights. Having some degree of security and certainty is critical to the successful running of the organisation. By the way, it drives enormous efficiencies when we can sign three-year deals for programmes or four-year deals for outside broadcasts, or whatever. It is the most efficient way to operate.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Bakhurst mentioned the risk of AI determining the number of jobs in RTÉ to attain the perfect employment level. What jobs will AI take at RTÉ?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It is not entirely clear yet. Obviously, it is a very-----

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is Mr. Bakhurst open to considering AI?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We have to be open to it. We have to embrace every new technology. I say that alongside saying that I have deep respect for the quality of the people working there and their abilities in doing their jobs. In the end, particularly in areas like journalism, we will always have human oversight of journalistic decisions. However, already there are some processes where-----

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What does "human oversight of journalistic decisions" mean, as opposed to "human journalists"? What is "human oversight"?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It means that we have editors, journalists and producers who are doing the work. They may use AI tools but, in the end, the humans will do the journalism. We are not going to generate our journalism by AI but it is already a useful tool which we use in some areas of news and current affairs.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How many jobs has AI replaced in RTÉ?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It is very hard to say. It is probably a very insignificant number so far, but that is because we are taking a relatively measured approach to it.

We are using it in things like subtitling but some of that is done by outside companies. We are looking at where the technology is robust and delivers high quality but weighing that up against the need to maintain trust in what we do. Sometimes that means not using AI and using properly qualified people to make the judgment.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Mr. Bakhurst said 70 people took up voluntary redundancy last year.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It was 67.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Apologies. Up to yesterday, how many people had been recruited into the organisation?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We have recruited 11 people. Over the last nine to 12 months, there have been a number of different recruitments. I might bring in Ms Malone on this. We have recruited 11 new people in skill sets and, in fact, one of them, from risk and compliance, is sitting here. These were things we had to do because of the expert committee reports on areas we needed to improve. A number of those jobs are in technology.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What about on-air personnel?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I would say one, and that was quite recently on a podcast. Sorry, it is two because we added one on 2FM as well when someone left.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Were there any internal attempts at recruitment before it went external?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes. We always look first internally before we go externally.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was there an official process with interviews and expressions of interest?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Ms Malone will answer this.

Ms Annette Malone:

One of the recommendations, as Deputy Farrelly is probably aware, is that we run an expressions of interest process. We ran one for 2FM in 2024 and we got huge interest in it, with 650 applications, of whom 120 were invited in for a pilot and screening. Four individuals have come through that and are on our schedule at the moment, which is great. We have new blood, fresh faces and new voices on 2FM. We ran a second one last year for Radio One and news and current affairs. Again, we got in excess of 550 applications, primarily for "Liveline" when we were replacing the presenter, and for some vacancies in news and current affairs. We broadened that one out because we included other genres such as sports, arts and music. We have used that process for replacing-----

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So 550 people applied for "Liveline"?

Ms Annette Malone:

No, there was a combination of expressions of interest for Radio One and news and current affairs. Then we also included all of the other genres, such as sports, arts and music. Some people applied for everything and some people applied for specific genres. This has provided the shortlists being used to look for panels of presenters. On Radio One, unfortunately, we had to replace one of our presenters and that came through that process, as did "Liveline". We have also used it for podcasts. Recently, we ran a separate one internally to ensure we captured sports because it might have got lost in the Radio One and news and current affairs list.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That went to an external candidate.

Ms Annette Malone:

Sorry, which one?

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The sports one.

Ms Annette Malone:

Yes.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Ms Malone just said it was an internal process.

Ms Annette Malone:

No, we had captured sports in the original expressions of interest last year but-----

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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But those applicants were not on a panel for future sports appointments.

Ms Annette Malone:

Those individuals who applied in that expression of interest, and I apologise if I was not clear on this, were included but to be 100% sure that we captured everybody internally who might have been interested in it, we ran a separate internal one to ensure everybody who wanted an opportunity in sports had it. It was the combined two together that were looked at for the sports podcast presenter role. They went through the same process using weighted criteria and everything else that has been used. Those panels will be in place for two years and we have committed to do a full review and take it back to the remuneration and management development committee in the first quarter of next year. It has been a very successful process for us.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Have Mr. Bakhurst and the Minister met about the proposals for Montrose?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I have spoken to his officials about it and I briefly mentioned it, among other things, to the Minister about which direction we are heading in, yes.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Has Mr. Bakhurst put forward a business case to him and the Department of public expenditure on a cost-benefit analysis of what he proposes to do by way of cutting back on-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We have not got to that phase yet. We have a business case but we-----

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There is a business case?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Yes.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What is the benefit? I presume a serious amount of this will now be outsourced to renting independent production facilities. How much of that cost will be saved by selling a portion of Montrose?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

When we put in a business case we looked at this. We do not need all of the buildings at Montrose any more. Many of them are underused, actually, because of outsourcing over previous years and flexible working. We do not need many of the buildings. As Deputy Farrelly will know, five of them are listed. Many of them are 60 years old or more.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I mean the rental costs that RTÉ will now accrue by going to other locations for long-term production.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

What we looked at was the cost of refurbishing the whole site. Cost avoidance is a big win because it would cost €350 million plus to refurbish buildings we do not actually need over a long period. The idea is not to go to rent but to move down to one end of the site. We still own the site. We need to refurbish the building but we would do so and still own it.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Will Mr Bakhurst furnish the committee with this business case? It would be really useful for us.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It has to go through the proper process with officials at the Department but we will give it to the committee, absolutely, at the right time, if that is all right.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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When does Mr. Bakhurst envisage that to be?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It will be in the coming months. It has to go through our board. It has not gone through our board yet, although the board is fully aware of what we are doing.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We will now take a short break.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Before I call our next speaker, Mr. Bakhurst wants to make a clarification and give some further information on non-procurement. I think he got some figures over the course of our suspension.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I thank the Chair for that. I was asked a question earlier about non-compliant and non-competitive procurement, which I have the numbers for here. In 2024, there were eight suppliers that were either non-compliant or non-competitive and in 2025, there were also eight suppliers in those categories. In both cases, that was around 0.5% of the cumulative purchases we made. It was a relatively small one, but obviously there were individual cases for some of those. I just wanted to give the committee those numbers.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Bakhurst for that. I call Deputy Dolan.

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the team at RTÉ for being with us today. On that non-public procurement compliance, we as a committee would have absolutely anticipated there would be some level of non-compliant public procurement, as we have with all State entities, but we ask bodies and organisations to make sure they endeavour to reduce that to the lowest possible amount. It is about providing confidence to the State and to wider entities that if somebody procures something, it is done in a proper manner. It also provides confidence in public contracts. I just wanted to highlight that.

At the outset, I will say there are many people in the RTÉ organisation who work very hard to provide fantastic content, an incredible service and great journalism, and who endeavour to get that out there. Before we started this engagement today, I was thinking of some of the big names who have retired over the past few years and would have given a lifetime of service to RTÉ. When you think about the lifetime of service so many people who go into RTÉ give, their commitment to the role and how proud they would be to say they work for RTÉ, it has been an incredibly difficult time for the organisation since the 2023 debacle and the uncovering of a lot of very poor governance that was ongoing.

At the outset, I note a media report yesterday stated that TV licence sales declined by 200,000 in the past four years. Then you have 300 RTÉ staff applying for the redundancy. They are essentially looking for the exit door. What has Mr. Bakhurst done in the past three years to turn that around and rebuild morale in the organisation?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I thank the Deputy and I welcome this opportunity because this has been one of the core things I and the leadership team have been trying to do between us, which is to rebuild morale inside the organisation. It is obviously very challenging in the middle of very significant changes and very rapid transformation in the organisation.

We have done a number of things. First of all, at the heart of it is that staff felt they were not properly communicated with by the director general or by the leadership team. We have introduced very regular town halls, where I appear. We give a briefing to staff on the biggest things going on in the organisation. There is time, in every one of those town halls, for questions and answers at the end. We take questions and answers in advance as well. I know members of the leadership team have their own town halls with their own teams in radio, TV or the audience area.

We have introduced a significant amount of investment in learning across the organisation and that also-----

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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On all of that, it is all welcome in respect of trying to improve communication to rebuild morale but I feel that does not connect. If I was working in RTÉ and saw how some of the recruitment processes have been done in recent years to bring in external talent to head up divisions, I would be sure there were people within Mr. Bakhurst's organisation who felt overlooked or really let down by how it was not felt that the talent was already within the organisation. Especially when RTÉ has such financial pressures, how does Mr. Bakhurst square that off with going out to the market and trying to pay top dollar for top talent?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

All the competitions we have now are done internally and externally. For the key roles, particularly senior roles, we have to get the very best people to lead the organisation and we have been extremely lucky with the people we have managed to recruit and bring in who have got huge and, in some cases, international experience. They bring a skill set that we did not have inside the organisation. People want to have the opportunity to apply and have their chance to do the interview if they get to that stage. In every case for the people we have brought in, if you ask people, they would see now exactly why we brought those people in because they bring a new way of thinking. Frankly, the organisation needed that at the highest level. We needed a new way of thinking and a new approach.

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am not suggesting that RTÉ cannot bring in new people from outside but is there not a value-for-money proposition in employing people internally who already have a working knowledge of how RTÉ functions? They have an understanding of the organisational structure and systems and they already represent the RTÉ brand while having prior service. It is something I thought I would highlight.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

I will say that at least one of the members of the current leadership team came in at a particular time in their career but also at a significant discount to what they were earning in the commercial sector because they wanted to join in the turnaround of the organisation and they believe in public-service broadcasting. We do not always pay top dollar-----

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of the time. I want to move on to another issue. This is in regard to the FIFA World Cup qualifier in Czechia. Some 41 staff travelled to Czechia for the World Cup qualifier. What was the total cost of that exercise?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The total cost was €57,000.

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so that was €57,000 and 41 people travelled-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Then we have the rights on top of that. That was the cost of that team.

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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How many people did RTÉ have to send to the World Cup?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

How many have we sent to the World Cup now? We have sent six.

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I have to compliment RTÉ. The coverage has been fantastic, with 104 games. I see it coming up on my Instagram feed through RTÉ Sport. It is fantastic but how on earth can RTÉ send only six people and they manage to cover the entirety of the World Cup but it had to send 41 people to do one World Cup qualifier?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It is because the two things are very different. The teams out at the actual World Cup are purely commentary teams. We have not done our presenting or other programmes from out there.

On the Czech thing, we would really welcome a chance to talk about this. First of all, you can see the numbers of people consuming the coverage of the World Cup, which the sports and operations teams have done a fantastic job of delivering, has driven record numbers on RTÉ Player and on-----

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The question is, did RTÉ need to send 41 people to Czechia and how was the decision made to send that many people?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The decision was made in a number of areas. First of all, we wanted to present from out there because there were Irish fans there and we wanted to get the voice of Irish fans as part of the coverage. The Deputy will see from the World Cup; it is pure commentary. There is no-----

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Even at that, say RTÉ sent the same six people out to the World Cup qualifier and then it sent two teams of three people out on the streets meeting people. That is 12 people. Where is the extra 30 required?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

To be crystal clear, this qualifier was the biggest game that Ireland had for probably a couple of decades. It was a major national event. It is part of our job to reflect that. When we took this decision, part of the decision about some of the teams we sent - particularly for some of the radio programmes - was because we were closely liaising with our commercial director, who said that this was a huge public service event and it needed to be covered properly but also that we could drive considerable commercial revenue by having bespoke teams out there for individual radio-----

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst not understanding how sickening it would be for the public at home looking at this to think that 41 people were sent to the World Cup qualifier because Ireland was playing and it was a great day out for the RTÉ team-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Sorry, can I just-----

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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-----but only six went to cover the entirety of the World Cup and they are doing a great job?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No because it is entirely different. As I said to the Deputy, this was about actually presenting programmes-----

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Give me the justification for 41 heads having to go to Czechia.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

It was to present individual programmes, and connect with parts of the audience we do not connect with quite often to get the voices of real Irish fans.

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I have told Mr. Bakhurst how RTÉ could have done that with 12 people, so why did it need 41 people?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

You could not do it with 12 people.

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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They were not all presenting.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No. I want to be fair to the people we sent there because they were all hard-working RTÉ staff. There was not a single person who went to Prague - even though one or two of us were invited - who went on a freebie, a nice-to-have, a jolly or whatever. All those people who went there worked extremely hard across a number of days. If you look at the total cost - €57,000 for 41 people, which includes flights, hotels, food, transport, taxis and everything - it was provided at good value. We have had zero criticism from the audience on this. One or two people have been a bit fixated about it. We have had zero criticism. In fact, we have had the opposite. Not just the numbers but the response from the audience about the coverage across all the platforms was extremely positive. In the end, as I said to the Deputy, RTÉ has, as he is well aware-----

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of the time. I think the disconnect here is that RTÉ got a bailout from the Government. It got massive-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Sorry, it was not a bailout. It was public funding.

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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-----public funding. The issue is that the public believes that RTÉ should be as nimble and agile as possible. I agree with Mr. Bakhurst. I accept that €57,000 was not a crazy number to send 41 people abroad. It was fairly agile but I wonder if it required the 41 people. I want to move on to one last point before we finish-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

On that, we could have not presented "Liveline" or RTÉ 2FM from there. We could have cut the numbers back but in the end, we would have cut our commercial revenue. The commercial revenue paid for this many times over. That is all I would say to the audience watching this.

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I have a last point before I finish. We learned today that "Up for the Match", which has now been outsourced, is going to cost more than it was costing. How on earth is that decision consistent with prudent financial management? If there was any show that RTÉ presents that is successful, that people get excited about and want to watch and tune in for, it is "Up for the Match", and its format has been functioning. Does Mr. Bakhurst believe the format of "Up for the Match" was failing, or what justification can he give for RTÉ spending more money than it was previously spending on "Up for the Match"?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

The Deputy is right. The format has been functioning for many years but you do need to look at how you refresh programmes. Presenting it from Croke Park, the heart of the GAA, on the night before is extremely attractive as an audience proposition and is much more ambitious creatively. In the end, it absolutely has to provide value for money but one thing we look at in terms of value for money is whether this is delivering something that is high-quality and will benefit the audience. It is a creative decision.

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Here is my last question. Why did RTÉ have to outsource that when it already has hundreds of highly talented people working for it who were successfully delivering the programme? If it is just a venue change, why did RTÉ have to outsource it? Why could it not do it itself?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

First of all, whenever we use an outside broadcast, we have a contract. We do not do that ourselves. We have a contract that has been the same for years. All outside broadcasts are done through contractors. The second thing I would say is the Deputy almost answered the question himself. We have a World Cup going on. We have 104 games and we had the sports department flat out. It would be very similar people who would be working after the match, so there was also the availability of staff after that, and summer holidays and so on. We had huge GAA games as well, by the way, at the same time. Our sports department has steam coming out its ears. Part of it is about who is available to do it, but another part of it in the end is that we take creative decisions as to whether this will potentially be a better programme. I do not know until we see it. If it is great, we will do it again. If it is not great, we will not do it again.

Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Bakhurst for his engagement.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses back to the committee. The first thing to acknowledge is that RTÉ is certainly in a very different place from where it was two years ago when the representatives were last with us. We should acknowledge that. We always like at the beginning of hearings to acknowledge good work that is being done, even if we tend to focus on the areas where issues arise.

I want to clarify two items. Regarding the League of Ireland bidding, am I correct in stating that Virgin Media did not outbid RTÉ on it but that RTÉ would not commit to broadcasting one game every week? Will Mr. Bakhurst clarify that?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We are happy to provide details to the committee on this, but the process as I understood it at the time, and I have just conferred with Mr. Lynch about it, is that we bid, alongside Virgin, at a competitive level for the existing package, which was half and half. It was like a joint bid. The next thing we knew, we got a call from the FAI saying we had failed and that Virgin would be taking all the games.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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So it was not put to RTÉ that it must enquire and it refused.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No. We had no chance to come back on it. It was a done deal.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Bakhurst confirm the figure for the Champions League? Was it €3.5 million?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

No. I am sorry, we cannot.

Mr. Adrian Lynch:

We cannot confirm that but it was less than €3.5 million.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Bakhurst confirm or estimate the figure for the advertising revenue that accrues from the broadcasting of those matches, or has RTÉ segmented it that way?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Of the Champions League?

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We can, but it would be a rough one because there are two things. There is the spot advertising and sponsorship around the games themselves and then there is the overall impact it has on RTÉ's share across the year, which is significant, and that would be harder to put a number on.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I echo the points Deputy Byrne made earlier in regard to the game. Part of the reason we have great attendances at league games is that they are not on TV, but that option should be available. I think-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

We were very disappointed, and I have said that to the FAI, that we did not have a chance to get the FAI games. We are still doing the FAI Cup, but we would have liked to do it.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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That may be an opportunity to return to. Can I just come back to our summer meetings two years ago? We issued a report. There were 21 recommendations dealing with the tripartite agreement, issues around the barter account and other issues. Have the witnesses examined those 21 recommendations? I imagine they did not go unread. Do they feel RTÉ is in compliance with a certain number of them? Will Mr. Bakhurst comment on that?

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Clearly, we examined them at the time and tried to make sure we were addressing all of them. Honestly, we have not looked at them in the last 12 months, but I am happy to go back and look at them. Ms O'Shaughnessy here is our new compliance officer and we could ask her to do-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Bakhurt might send us correspondence afterwards clarifying which ones he feels RTÉ is in compliance with-----

Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:

Of course.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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-----and we might review that. A number of them were of particular concern to me. There was a commitment to the publishing of the receipt of gifts by RTÉ and to publishing staff salaries above €150,000. Where are we on both of those?