Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Apologies have been received from Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett. I welcome everyone to today's committee meeting. I ask anyone attending remotely to mute themselves while not contributing so we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. If they wish to contribute as per the speaking rota, I ask them to please indicate by using the raised-hand function. As the witnesses are in the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside of the Houses or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make them identifiable.

The agenda of today's meeting is a discussion of sexual violence and harassment policies and procedures in the higher education institutions. I again advise members to avoid raising specific cases at today's meeting and to engage solely on the policies and procedures. From Dundalk Institute of Technology, DkIT, I welcome Dr. Edel Healy, head of the school of health and science; Ms Siobhan Molloy, ending sexual violence and harassment manager. From University of Galway, I welcome Dr. Helen Maher, vice president for equality, diversity and inclusion; Ms Niamh Kavanagh, sexual violence and harassment prevention and response manager; and Ms Clarissa Joy DiSantis, education and training lead in the Active* Consent program. They are all very welcome to today's committee meeting. This meeting was originally scheduled to take place on 1 July but was deferred due to the EU Presidency. I thank DkIT and University of Galway for accommodating this change. Representatives of University College Cork and Trinity College Dublin were also invited but, unfortunately, were unable to attend the new date. We will issue new invitations to them after the recess.

I now call on the witnesses to deliver their opening statements. They have five minutes each.

Dr. Edel Healy:

Gabhaim buíochas roimh an Cathaoirleach and members of the committee. I am head of the school of health and science and the RiVeR project chair at Dundalk Institute of Technology. The RiVeR project - responding to the impacts of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence - is currently funded by the Higher Education Authority, HEA, performance funding scheme and provides education, research and training in the area of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. I am joined by my colleague Ms Siobhan Molloy, the ending sexual violence and harassment manager in DkIT.

DkIT serves the people of the north-east counties and the cross-Border region. In its 55-year history, DkIT has had a significant impact on the growth and development of the region. In a dynamic and ever-changing landscape, DkIT plays a pivotal role in the educational, economic, social and cultural evolution of the region, engaging with students, employers, educational partners and the wider community. DkIT has over 600 staff and provides quality learning and teaching to over 6,000 full-time and part-time students. It has established a comprehensive institutional framework to prevent and respond to sexual violence and harassment, aligned with the Higher Education Authority's framework for consent in higher education institutions and the recommendations of the HEA's Promoting Consent and Preventing Sexual Violence report. This framework is underpinned by robust governance structures, dedicated specialist staff, education and training programmes, awareness initiatives and accessible support services. Since 2024, DkIT has appointed a dedicated ending sexual violence and harassment, ESVH, prevention and response manager. This role provides strategic leadership across prevention, education, awareness raising and survivor support, ensuring a co-ordinated institutional response. My colleague Ms Molloy holds this role and is here today to assist the committee.

Incidents of sexual violence and harassment are currently managed through a range of established institutional policies. These policies are publicly available, and students and staff are informed of their rights and responsibilities during registration, induction and throughout their time at the institute. In addition, DkIT is developing a dedicated policy and procedure for responding to sexual violence and sexual harassment to further strengthen and streamline institutional processes. Education and prevention are central to DkIT's approach. Emphasis is placed on ESVH education during the first semester for incoming first-year students, recognising this period as "the red zone", a time when students may be at increased risk of experiencing sexual violence and harassment. As part of programme induction, all first-year students in DkIT participate in an in-class educational session, presented by the ESVH manager, covering consent; stalking; image-based sexual abuse, IBSA, legislation; reporting procedures; and the support services available to them within the institute and the wider community. This early intervention equips students with the knowledge, confidence and awareness to help foster a safe, respectful and supportive campus culture from the outset of their college experience. Incoming new staff receive comparable induction training, promoting a consistent understanding of ESVH prevention and response across the institute.

Complementing this prescribed education, DkIT delivers a comprehensive year-round programme of ESVH awareness campaigns for students and staff. In our submission to the committee, I understand there is a campaign of awareness document. In this document, we can see examples of the monthly campaigns that have been carried out. There are also some stats in there on staff and student engagement and we outline how we engage with various external agencies. These initiatives promote respectful relationships, consent, active bystander intervention, disclosure training and awareness of all gender-based violence. A monthly themed approach enables us to engage more effectively with harder-to-reach and more vulnerable cohorts with tailored messaging.

ESVH campaigns are also aligned throughout the year, with key national and international awareness initiatives including consent awareness, 16 days of activism against gender-based violence, sexual health awareness week, sexual assault awareness month, Go Purple Day and One Billion Rising. These activities, supported by DkIT’s students' union, help maintain visibility of these issues throughout the academic year and encourage ongoing engagement across the campus community, with support through social media channels. At a national level within the higher education sector, DkIT is involved in four HEA-funded projects in the area of ESVH. These projects are led by TU Dublin, ATU and TUS, while DkIT is leading on the development of a national stalking toolkit.

DkIT further strengthens its prevention and response work through close collaboration with specialist community organisations, including Rape Crisis North-East, Women's Aid Dundalk and local community gardaí. Representatives from these organisations regularly engage with students and staff through on-campus events, information sessions, drop-in clinics and awareness activities, ensuring the DkIT community has access to expert advice, specialist services and external supports. ESVH also works closely with the DkIT RiVeR project in the roll-out of awareness initiatives. The RiVeR project provides a number of accredited education programmes from level 8 to level 9, a range of training workshops such as In Their Shoes and enables an all-island community of practice for stakeholders in the GBSV field.

Strategic oversight of the DkIT ESVH framework is provided by a senior-level steering committee, chaired by the vice president for academic affairs and registrar. This committee supports oversight of three HEA frameworks, including healthy campus, student mental health and, of relevance today, the ESVH framework. The committee includes representatives from senior management, human resources, student services, academic leadership and the students' union, ensuring a whole-of-institution approach to preventing and responding to sexual violence and harassment. Progress is regularly reported to the institute executive board, the governing body and the HEA. Together, these governance arrangements, policies, education programmes, awareness initiatives and support services demonstrate DkIT's ongoing commitment to fostering a safe, respectful and inclusive learning and working environment while continually strengthening the institute's capacity to prevent and respond effectively to sexual violence and harassment.

We are very aware of the needs for clear policies relating to sexual violence and harassment within our institute. We are taking positive action, as I have described in our statement. Our recommendation to the committee is threefold. First, we suggest the development of standard policies and procedures that address all gender-based violence to support sectoral consistency. Second, we recommend the provision of sectoral legal support, the establishment of a national specialised investigation unit and sustained legal support for the ongoing development and implementation of policy. Third, we seek continued funding to support the essential ESVH resources for both direct student and staff supports and related projects.

Dr. Helen Maher:

I thank the committee for inviting University of Galway to this meeting to discuss the topic of sexual violence and harassment, SVH, policies and procedures in higher education institutions, including the Active* Consent programme. My name is Dr. Helen Maher, vice president for equality, diversity and inclusion, EDI, and I am joined by my colleague Ms. Niamh Kavanagh, sexual violence and harassment prevention and response manager, and Ms Clarissa Joy DiSantis, education and training lead with Active* Consent. University of Galway has long championed sexual violence and harassment prevention and response. This is illustrated by examples such as the first appointment in Irish higher education of a senior leader in EDI in 2016, the creation of the Active* Consent programme, which has expanded to have a national and international impact, and the 2024 launch of our revised institutional sexual violence and harassment policy and procedure.

Over the past three years, we have established a dedicated sexual violence and harassment prevention and response function within my office and strengthened institutional governance and accountability. Our SVH function has quickly established a network for communication, support and education that extends across academic departments and administrative units in our university. We make the commitment that on joining our university, students can expect to receive engaging awareness raising during their orientation, information on disclosures of sexual violence and harassment, and access to online self-directed learning resources and in-person facilitated training co-delivered by student peer educators and specialist staff members. While we are proud of the progress made, our experience has highlighted that this is an evolving area of practice. Not alone do we continue to see long-recognised factors in sexual violence such as alcohol use, coercion and gender roles and the continued perpetuation of sexual harassment. We also encounter emerging issues, notably the impact of online risks to safety, different cultural understandings of consent and sexual violence, issues for students participating in Erasmus mobility programmes and on placement and the requirement that our services are accessible and appropriate for all students and staff, including vulnerable and under-represented groups.

Our engagement with groups such as the Irish University Association's group for vice presidents for EDI and the practitioners’ forum for sexual violence and harassment prevention and response managers suggests that similar issues are faced across the sector. While resourcing has increased as a result of the HEA implementation plan and through the investment of higher education institutions themselves, the scale of the SVH prevention and response function, which was underserved for so long, has been truly revealed over the past three years. We see this scale reflected in the development or revision of institutional policies, the establishment of trauma-informed procedures on reports and investigations, the creation of networks to reach out to units and departments across the university and whole new areas of awareness raising, education and training.

The scale of ambition in the HEA framework on ending sexual violence and harassment was remarkable and groundbreaking. This looks set to continue in the new iteration of the framework. We can all point to excellent examples of innovation and institutional chang, yet the scale of our collective ambition in higher education has not been matched by a comparable growth in capacity to resource and implement all of the changes that we want and need to see happen. The introduction of the University of Galway sexual violence and harassment policy and procedure in 2024 fundamentally reshaped the university’s toolkit in relation to response. We now have the policy structure needed to meet the full range of sexual violence and harassment experiences. However, the system required to implement policy innovation requires us to resolve many challenges. These include trauma-informed practice training needs, risk assessment and safeguarding, partnership working across the university and the management of cases that may run alongside criminal investigations. Moreover, the university has obligations to all parties involved in complaints of sexual violence or harassment. For those who choose to disclose or make a report, this means providing a trauma-informed, compassionate and supportive response.

At the same time, we must ensure that respondents experience fair procedures, due process and appropriate supports. This is fundamental to everyone having confidence in institutional processes and to achieving robust, lawful and equitable outcomes. Further to this, a whole-of-institution approach to tackling sexual violence means that we look upstream from the incidents of violence. We must invest in prevention efforts that reach all students and staff in a meaningful, impactful manner. We wish to highlight examples of prevention education now integrated within the curriculum of a number of our university academic programmes, besides the awareness-raising prevention initiatives that all students have access to on joining the university. We are mindful that by the time students arrive at university, attitudes on relationships, consent, gender norms and online conduct have been shaped over many years. This reinforces the need for prevention and education efforts across the entire educational life cycle, from primary and post-primary education through to higher and professional education training. We have shared our learning and programmes with schools and the further education and training sector throughout the country in our contribution to achieve fundamental societal change.

This shows the impact of higher education in addressing issues that exist across all of our communities and settings.

To realise the ambitions of the framework, its next phase must be underpinned by sustained investment in specialist expertise, greater information sharing and partnership, and the embedding of consent, respectful relationships and trauma-informed practice throughout the educational and professional life cycle before, during and after the university experience. With national leadership and partnership, there is a unique opportunity to build on the progress made already and to lead out on our national goal of cultural change across Irish society.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for coming in today. I have a question for DkIT. I see a great number of the campaigns that it holds throughout the year. While the merger with Queen's University is a fantastic thing, what will happen between the institutions? The whole legal framework will be different between the two institutions. Will there be one policy between the two institutions?

Dr. Edel Healy:

As the Deputy knows, we are entering into a partnership with Queen's University and we will hopefully become Dundalk University College. At the moment, we are going through a process of aligning our academic standards in terms of moving towards academic integration because of the awarding of Queen's awards within Dundalk. At a later stage, we will start looking at policies and procedures. It is too early at this stage to say what that might look like but we are and will be an autonomous organisation, so we will have our own policies and procedures. As we work more closely with Queen's University, we may start aligning procedures, if it makes sense, but I do not anticipate any immediate changes.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I get that and it will be a big process.

One of the elements that has come across from everybody appearing before us is the low level of reporting. Even with the number of campaigns that institutions run across the year, there is still that issue with disclosure and reporting. Things will be happening and nobody will want to report them. Some of those who are reporting say it is the question of resources that is holding them back. They go to the institutions and report but nothing is done or it does not go any further, and they then just pull back from it. Besides resourcing and sustained investment, what does DkIT believe will help those who have suffered from this come forward to actually report it so that they get the proper support?

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

There are many barriers to people reporting incidents. I know it has come up at a previous meeting that only 12% of people speak out and report it. A UNICEF survey was carried out of 47 universities in 15 different countries. It had a figure of 13%, so this is an issue at both national and European levels. Based on Central Statistics Office, CSO, figures, we know that 50% of people never tell anyone, only 5% of people report it to the Garda and up to 80% of people do not go to get support, such as counselling, from any agencies or services.

This is a social issue. One of the things that comes up when I have conversations and people make a disclosure is that they feel they will not be believed. That is a societal issue that we can have an impact on. When they come in front of me, they are most definitely believed. After that, there is the impact on friends, families and social groups and they worry about people finding out. There is shame and blame. We can support people through all of those things as much as we possibly can but there are also other barriers. If somebody comes to me and I believe them, they might want to go to the sexual assault trauma unit, SATU, we do not have one in Dundalk, so I have to get them to go to Dublin. That causes issues.

If they report it to the Garda, there are issues with that as well. Their mobile phones are taken off them. When you are a student, that is the most important thing. You now do not have access to Noodle and your DkIT account. We can work with that, and we do all of the time.

The barriers include the blame, shame and the length of time. They do not feel supported from a societal point of view. We are part of the puzzle and we have a role to play in making things better but it is very difficult. Thinking of those who have come and sat in front of me, every one of them has been so afraid that they will not be believed. They are afraid of what will happen after they actually disclose the incident, whether to the institute or an external body. They do not want to be that person and they do not want people to know that this thing has happened to them. It is very complicated.

The more awareness campaigns we do, the better. They are absolutely key because they say that this is okay and the shame and the blame are not on them, but on the perpetrator. We have to keep doing more and more work on that. We are seeing the impact of social media. We have seen what has happened to other people who have come forward and reported it, whether it has been to institutes or not. We are dealing with a lot of rape myths. The Dublin Rape Crisis Centre recently did research on rape myths. Up to 20% of under-45s believe rape myths and that false rape allegations are actually a thing. If we look at false rape allegations, we do not have specific data here in Ireland, but the Home Office in the UK says that only 4% of allegations are suspected to be false. In the EU, it is 2% of allegations and in the USA, it is 6%. For 95% of people who come to us, it is not a false allegation, yet that is where we are living and we hear about false allegations all of the time.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Molloy talks about how they want to be believed. They may be believed at the start, but if it goes any further, the onus is on them to keep going back over what happened to them and to relive it constantly to prove it. That is a big issue. I do not know how we can work around that. I like the idea relating to post-primary education because a lot of young people are learning about sex through the online world, where the women are submissive, the men are dominant or the other way around. They are learning that this is supposedly the way to act. The post-primary education aspect is key as well.

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

I will build on that point and what Ms Molloy has already said. We have found that, sometimes, our students do not understand what sexual violence is. Last year, we worked with our students on policy and asked them what they understood sexual violence to be. To give one example, they do not see themselves as victims of domestic violence because they think that is for people who are married or living together. Oftentimes, they are in relationships that would qualify as abusive but they do not necessarily understand that or see themselves in such relationships. Data from Women's Aid supports this. Dating violence occurs all of the time, but they do not necessarily view it as sexual violence. A huge amount of our work goes back to education, training and ensuring that they understand. In the video I mentioned, we got them to create the scenarios in their own words. We use that in our orientation so that it is in their language and not something I am deciding how to describe. Theirs is a different generation and we have to be mindful of that.

On the Deputy's point, the norms are formed much earlier in their lives than when they come into third level education. We know the importance of education much further downstream as well as the whole-of-society approach, given that not everybody will stay in formal education. My colleague Ms DiSantis will build on that nicely.

Ms Clarissa DiSantis:

I am here representing the Active* Consent programme. We provide education in secondary, further and higher education settings. It is important that we are building this through the educational cycle and not just focusing on one group.

On policy and procedure and the Deputy's question on what besides resourcing and sustainability would be useful, I previously worked as a sexual violence prevention and response manager for eight years at a university in the UK. I was the first person in the UK to hold a role like that, so I was at the start of that sector and building this work. One of the most powerful steps we took to build trust was to inform the reporting party - you might use the word "complainant" - of the outcome of the investigation and disciplinary process, including sharing if there were any sanctions imposed on the person who was responsible for any misconduct caused. Not only did we share the sanctions in full, but we also shared that publicly with the university body and, given that the information was on our website, with the public. We would anonymise the data but we would say that, in case 1, a breach of the sexual violence policy had occurred at 4.2.1, which was engaging or attempting to engage in a sexual act without consent.

Through a trauma-informed investigation and an adjudication process, the sanction for that was expulsion. We would send an all-staff all-student email out. We would not do one case at a time; we do a handful of cases. It was all under the general data protection regulation and protected. We made it to where people could not identify the case. Not only do we do the education and prevention side, but if something does happen, we run a trauma-informed investigation. In our policy and procedure, we committed to sharing that we would inform people about what happened. That is a hugely powerful piece because if I am afraid that I will not be believed and afraid the university will do nothing, the university saying not just that we have taken the appropriate disciplinary action but that this is what we have actually done, demonstrating perpetrator accountability, is a huge thing. However, it is very difficult for universities to do that if they do not have guidance from the top to say it is okay because we are balancing equality of human rights as well as privacy rights.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the speakers. It would certainly appear that Galway and Dundalk are ahead of the posse and other institutions in this regard. Is the meaningful impact of this being measured across the whole sector? Do the institutions have counselling supports available for students or are they just referred to other areas? Those are my first two questions about the meaningful impacts, and the supports and counselling available for victims.

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

I cannot comment on the impact across the whole sector. The HEA takes annualised reports from the institutions and puts them all together to issue a synthesis report. However, I can talk to the impact in Galway. When a policy like this is launched, one of the measures of success is the number of reports or the increase in activity seen in that space. We certainly have the data in Galway to support the fact that since we went live with this policy in December 2024, the activity in this area has increased by over 100%. That is calculated from our formal reports, our speak-out reports, and the engagement with my office in terms of queries disclosures, etc. As we also measure that through our student experience survey, we can see that people are aware of the office, the supports and so on. That is growing every time we produce that survey. There are two measurements that we look at indicating the impact of the work.

We have dedicated counselling for students in Galway. We have always had that and we will continue to have that. In addition to counselling, we have a chaplaincy service, we have our student medical service and we have many professionals trained to receive disclosures safely for the victim-survivor and safely for themselves through our first-point-of-contact programme, which is an in-depth name-disclosure management programme. We have up to 200 people trained across the campus through that programme and they can all safely receive disclosures. We are building a network broader than counselling because students have to register with counselling. We want to give them options if that is not something they want to do.

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

We have a similar situation to Galway. We have our counselling, our pastoral care and our health unit, which is there to support students. I have seen an increase of up to 100% of people come forward to have conversations. Based on the events we have done this year versus the year before, more people are attending. People are more open about having positive conversations about zero tolerance towards gender-based violence, which is absolutely great.

However, sometimes students do not want to access the supports within DkIT. There are many reasons for that. Maybe they do not want to see the person who is counselling. Often the rape crisis centre is the best place to send victims who have been sexually assaulted or raped. Unfortunately, there are very long waiting lists. While people will be seen initially, they could be waiting quite a significant amount of time to actually see a counsellor.

Dr. Edel Healy:

In Dundalk we also place importance on linking in with support organisations in the region. For example, Dundalk Women's Aid would have quite a presence on campus in terms of providing support. We interact very much with our community and bring them on campus to interact with our students and staff to provide supports as needed.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is obviously a lot of good progress there. Dr. Maher mentioned different cultural understandings of sexual violence and harassment. I ask her to elaborate on that. I see the term violence used a lot in reports now. Is this taken to have a broader meaning than physical violence or is it something else?

Dr. Helen Maher:

By way of response, I might pick up on a couple of points in the thread and then come to the specifics of the cultural context that we referred to. We see the increase in reports as a measure of the success of the policy. Deputy McGettigan spoke about building trust and accountability with regard to the policy environment and repeated engagement. We have tried to make sure from a trauma-informed perspective that it is not retraumatising those who are reporting by going back over again and again.

Picking up on the counselling point, the counselling can be tailored specifically to the need of the reporting party. We have to be mindful that supports may also be required for the responding party and so those supports are available. As part of our case management process, we will engage directly with the head of counselling and the head of student services. The first thing we do when a report comes in is that Ms Kavanagh will bring together that group who will manage the case. I will chair that and we will allocate the resources in accordance with the need. The student or reporting party will not be involved in that. It about minimising where the student needs to be represented. We also partner with the expert agencies and NGOs in our sector and in our region, particularly Galway Rape Crisis Centre.

Deputy Ó Súilleabháin spoke about the issue of violence. This is obviously specific to sexual violence and sexual harassment. That is the policy parameter. We are guided by that policy parameter which names a number of unacceptable behaviours. That is our baseline for what constitutes a breach of the policy or what types of behaviours come under the policy itself.

On the cultural context, the university is a microcosm of the wider societal norms and we live in a diverse cultural context. I am mindful that culture is not just about nationality or ethnicity; it is also about the cultural norms and behaviours that are a pattern in our society at any one time. We actually see different cultures of behaviour and what is accepted. Ms Kavanagh has already referred to understanding some of what is acceptable behaviour. We also have expertise in terms of intercultural competence in the EDI office and an understanding that we may be looking at different interpretations. The policy, training around the policy and awareness raising around the behaviours and norms are part of the student orientation experience and setting that baseline. In some instances, there is further work to be done.

We also have targeted training for international students as a separate cohort on orientation. We would differentiate to introduce them to the policy environment. As the reports are coming in, we see the level of complexity in terms of the expectation and understanding with regard to norms of behaviour. We are continually responding to that type of complexity. In this whole environment, prevention and response are the two critical aspects. It is not just the training but building the accountability through meaningful response. It is back to the point of the impact of outcomes for reporting parties.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I just have a quick question. I was not sure what was meant by the "norms of behaviour" in the multicultural context of a university. I was looking for more specifics and if it was referring to any particular trend.

I imagine that students having their mobile phones taken off them for investigation would be a massive barrier. Has any work been done with the Garda on reducing the return time for phones? I imagine that this issue turns a lot of people off.

Ms Clarissa DiSantis:

I can speak to the social norms piece. When we are talking about norms, we are covering a whole diverse group, as Dr. Maher has said, but one of the things we are seeing, particularly with the cohort in undergraduate ages, is that a lot of people are learning about sex and consent through online sources, including pornography. A growing amount of what is and is not acceptable is being learned through what is now mainstream pornography, which used to be quite extreme. There are things like non-fatal strangulation. Young adults will call that "choking" and will think that they have to do that because otherwise they will be vanilla or prudish. It is a dangerous thing that cannot be done safely. There is no safe way to strangle another person. I am not talking about culture, but age and where people are getting their education. When people are being educated through pornography, they are learning behaviours that are really dangerous and they think they "have to" consent to that. We see this shift, so dealing with it through education is important.

One of the things we do with Active* Consent is teach about social norm gaps. For example, maybe I think that something is not okay but that all of my peers think it is. When we survey, though, it turns out that we are all thinking it is not okay. I was just feeling this internalised peer pressure. Through all of our training, we teach about social norms gaps, communication, what is okay, how to ask a partner and how to check in with a partner. It is a huge thing. If we internalise peer pressure, we internalise what we have learned through pornography, online sources, fan fiction, erotica or wherever people are getting their education. That is not the great sex education and consent education provided through our programmes in schools and in higher and further education. We have to come back in as those educating formally to say that, while people might believe that their friends think something, their friends actually do not think that. We make communication stronger. An important piece for us is to push against those social norm myths and help people know that they can talk about these things and do not have to do things because of internalised peer pressure.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for being here and for their comprehensive and very informative opening statements. We really appreciate all they have taken on and the work they are doing in supporting students and staff members in their institutions. It is very impressive.

I have a number of questions, similar to those my colleagues have been asking. I am really fascinated by how in-depth the witnesses are with this. Dr. Maher spoke about the trauma-informed practice training that University of Galway does. Will she tell us a little more about that? What does it look like? Who receives it? In the case of something being reported, what are the protocols and what steps are taken?

Dr. Helen Maher:

We have a framework of training that is a tiered approach depending on role responsibility and the engagement that somebody may have with staff or students. It is targeted and tailored. Some of the training has been referred to already. From point of disclosure to the process of being involved in the policy environment, it is different. A member of staff may have the type of training that Ms Kavanagh talked about, which is the 200 staff members with trauma-informed training receiving disclosures. It will be different if you are going through the formal policy environment where you disclose, in that it will be through the sexual violence and harassment unit within the EDI office that you will engage in the formal process of reporting and where the investigation will take place, etc. That is directly managed by Ms Kavanagh, so she may respond more.

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

Yes, and I will ask Ms DiSantis to support on this as well. There are different types of trauma-informed training. For example, when I was starting the role, I did a course on trauma-informed organisation and what that looked like. That was geared more towards the health services. There was not something specifically on a trauma-informed process in higher education institutions at that time. I think there still is not. It was on the general principles of a trauma-informed process. I got myself educated.

Trauma informed is a culture. It requires a full culture change and a culture shift in organisations. The notion that you might have one particular area trauma informed is not great. You need to work towards having a full trauma-informed institution. That is what we are trying to do now. There is specialist training, to which Ms DiSantis can talk, for investigators who need to be trauma informed. We are trying to ensure that, when they have a reporting party in front of them, they are not retraumatising the person, are ensuring that they are giving adequate breaks to the person, and they understand, for example, that the timeline might be completely skewed. Memories will come back at different times. What they said one day might differ. They might want to dip in and out of the process. It is all of those things. It is about creating a safe and supportive environment for that person.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will ask specifically about teaching staff in the university, a department secretary, an administrative assistant or even a porter - somebody who is a trusted adult who may become the first point of contact for someone who has experienced sexual violence. How does the university prepare for that? How many staff does it have?

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

We have over 2,000 staff members. We have targeted groups. Our security team, for example, is one team that we have taken through the first point of contact training so that they can understand the broader context and can safely receive disclosures and signpost to help. On more trauma-informed practices, we target people who might be doing investigations such as HR business partners, HR colleagues and so on. We have to target different individuals depending on their roles.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Kavanagh. I appreciate that. Do the witnesses from the DkIT want to respond on that?

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

Yes. I am a fully qualified psychotherapist, so I like to think I act in a trauma-informed way. We have gone out and done quite a lot of training with the staff. I have the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre down in the DkIT quite regularly to do disclosure training. It is all about educating staff and making sure that they have support. I am really mindful that, when staff receive a disclosure, it is not a nice thing at all. I am there to support them as well and to make sure that they are okay after it.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is very important. On the matter of recording instances, I like the approach that Galway is taking in anonymising and sharing information about-----

Ms Clarissa DiSantis:

That was in my previous work in a university in the UK.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Galway is not doing that. Are either of the institutions here measuring the level of reports they get and are they doing any work on analysing that information? Where does that go in terms of the feedback loop? How does that inform decisions that might be made on, for example, straightforward matters like areas on campus that need greater lighting or drawing attention to greater aspects of behaviour within the student body? How does that reporting work?

Dr. Helen Maher:

The accountability, oversight and leadership on this are embedded within the governance infrastructure in the university. We have a dedicated committee on sexual violence and harassment prevention and response. The data is collated and annually reported. At every meeting, there is a dashboard that Ms Kavanagh presents to that meeting. She also presents it annually to our university management team and the university subcommittee of our governing authority. Our annual report to the Higher Education Authority, HEA, would also take that route in terms of being reported through the channels. It would then be reported on our website with regard to Speak Out disclosures. There is analysis of that data and a measuring of the trends. Since introducing the policy, it has been important that we have been able to document and measure the evidence base to see whether there has been an increase in reports. As Ms Kavanagh has pointed out, there has been an increase of 114% in reports since 2024 when the policy was introduced. We also have other instruments to measure, for example, student experience surveys and staff culture surveys.

In the staff culture survey, we would also measure knowledge and awareness, experience of reporting, likelihood of reporting and trust in reporting. Those are biannual staff culture surveys that are published and disseminated to all staff so there are multiple fora and spaces. It is critical that we measure because it speaks to both impact and requirement with regard to the resource input, which is really significant in terms of the increase in reporting and the requirements across the university. It cannot be held by a single office. We know that and members will have seen that from all of the witnesses here. This is a whole-of-institution, multi-layered matter with differentiated responsibilities. Not everybody is the right person to receive a disclosure. We know that but there are variations in terms of capacity, role and responsibility.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would the witnesses from DkIT like to respond about measurement, reporting and feeding back learnings?

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

We would be very similar to Galway. Noting trends coming forward from disclosures is really important and has informed us and my counterparts in the sector that there are things that need to be addressed. The HEA has funded a stalking tool kit. Stalking has become a big issue on higher education campuses. DkIT is leading out on that tool kit and the University of Galway is one of our partners in that. When we see trends come in, we acknowledge that we need new ways of actioning this, we need new tool kits and we need to educate, inform and support people in different ways than we had previously. Trends are really important.

Dr. Edel Healy:

Regarding the whole-of-institution approach at governance level, similar to Galway, they report to the executive board and governing body but we also have a committee that oversees all of the HEA frameworks such as ending sexual violence, student mental health and a healthy campus. All of the outputs from those frameworks come together because there is a lot of influence and things interact with each other in terms of creating culture. It is important that we have a mix of people seeing the outputs.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If we get a second round, I would be very interested in going into the work that is being done in prevention and how the learnings from universities can be used to inform because they are not solely responsible for prevention. It concerns how we could use that information.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I really welcome the contributions of the witnesses because they highlight the level of proactivity in their institutions in this area. It would be wrong if I did not note that in recent weeks, we have had some concerns about the culture of institutions and how they deal with reporting of sexual violence and harassment. I was developing a concern that it was not victim-centred and I was certainly developing a concern that it was not trauma-informed so it is reassuring to get the evidence today that institutions are doing more than what had been presented in recent weeks.

Dr. Maher noted that in the past three years, the scale of the response has been truly revealed. This has coincided with the appointment of the response and prevention managers so I compliment Ms Molloy and Ms Kavanagh for their work in that area because, obviously, there has been a significant amount of work over the past three years. When Ms Molloy and Ms Kavanagh took up their roles initially, would they have been prepared for the scale of the work?

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

The two of us are dying to talk. I took up the role because I felt I could make a difference and, from a prevention point of view, I saw this as where we needed to be because we knew that people were not coming forward and were not getting the support they needed. I have been taken quite aback by a societal culture and how people are dealt with on a societal level when they do report. Again, that is down to victim blaming and victim shaming. I have most definitely become very aware of the impact of porn on students. I know a lot of people have talked about this. Women's Aid produced a really good report with the Sexual Exploitation Research and Policy, SERP, Institute. We know that teenagers and children up to the age of 13 are seeing violent porn and do not know how to process it. Situations are coming in where people do not realise they are doing something wrong and it is because their sexual scripting has been affected because they have been consuming extremely violent porn at a very young age. Before harm becomes visible, it almost becomes normal so there is a lot of normalising around violence towards women and sexual violence towards women. I have been surprised by how normalised it has become.

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

I thank Deputy Connolly for the question and feedback. I am taken aback. I took up this role in May 2024 and was in the very lucky position of having enjoyed a role for the previous year of looking exclusively at policies, procedures and frameworks in this area along with national and international best practice. I compliment the University of Galway for having the vision to protect that role and allow me the time to develop a robust policy and framework. I see some of my colleagues trying to do that piece of work while they are doing the day job and it is an impossible ask so that was a really important step taken by the University of Galway and I am certainly grateful. When I stepped into the manager role, the policy procedure framework was there and ready to be implemented. Have we encountered difficulties with it that we did not expect? One hundred percent - and they are matters that Ms Molloy has already raised such as the new forms of violence. Trying to keep up with the pace of change in this space is a job in itself never mind trying to put in and implement a robust prevention strategy and a robust response strategy and trying to raise awareness across the campus and a huge body of students from many different cultures. It has been complex but we take every challenge. The university has significant expertise through its Centre for Global Women's Studies, Active* Consent and all the various members of the committee. We are so lucky with the expertise that exists we can draw on to help us move forward. I have been in the higher education sphere for eight years but I have never before enjoyed the collaboration that exists - certainly between the managers. Every institution is really lucky with the managers they have. We really take on all of the challenges as a group and are working on about five different projects in addition to the job that address things like stalking and the fact that we do not have an investigations framework. We are trying to address all of those things. There is significant expertise and significant willingness. It is a really difficult space to be in but it is a really rewarding space as well.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have all commented on the data and Senator Ryan asked a lot of questions about data. I will try to be frank about data. When I got the opening statement from the University of Galway, I saw how student data was included in appendix one. I thought it would be interesting but it was just general student data. It was not data specific to the office. The witnesses from the University of Galway advised us that the university is keeping data while the witnesses from DkIT advised us that the institution is monitoring reports. Ms Molloy mentioned how sometimes conversations happen. Are there people who come to talk but do not bring it to reporting stage?

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

Yes. A lot of people come forward and disclose. It is a confidential conversation. Again, this is down to the fact that people are so afraid to report to the institute or An Garda Síochána. There are a lot of barriers to that but I can make sure there is support. I always make sure something is done so when people come in and talk to me, I make sure safety is paramount and I do a full review of their safety, what we can do and if there needs to be some form of an intervention.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have noticed that Ms Molloy keeps referring to those reporting as people. I would like to get the profile of who is reporting. Are they students or staff?

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

It is students and staff.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Are they male or female?

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

Predominantly female.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the figure 90%, over 90% or 100%?

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

I would say over 90%. I have had a few males report.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So it is predominantly female students.

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

Yes.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When they report, and Ms Molloy can be as nuanced as she wants in this response, who are they making the allegations against? Is there a profile of that?

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

It has been a mixture. It has been external people from the institute while some have been internal.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A mixture.

Dr. Maher noted, appropriately, I feel, that the office has obligations to all parties and the institution has obligations to all parties, as is justified and lawful. However, given what we are hearing about false allegations and concerns about reporting, how can the procedures in this area be trauma informed? Earlier we heard that the outcome of reports was published. I am aware that the University of Galway was challenged in the High Court over the suspension of a staff member for an issue in this area. Is that informing this, overtly maybe?

Dr. Helen Maher:

That predates some of this work – I am referring to when the incident occurred and the policy environment under which it was dealt with, etc. – so I will not comment on that specific aspect. The Deputy talked about the obligations to all parties. Different staff members involved would be part of the case-management process, assigning whose responsibility it is to respond to the various parties. There has to be a formal investigation if it works through the policy environment. The duty to all parties involved, which the Deputy talked about, is given due regard through the investigation process, the case-management process and the risk assessment of the particular case. Each case is treated as unique and as having its own context, responding to its specifics, but still within the broader remit and framework of the policy parameters, what is referenced in the policy, what is referred to in the procedural context of the policy, and so on.

Ms Clarissa DiSantis:

When we think about being trauma-informed, there is a continuum. There is trauma aware, trauma sensitive and trauma responsive, and at the top is trauma informed. That is the aim. That is what the organisation wants to be and wants to do. That is what our policies, investigations, adjudication and sanctioning processes must involve. Being trauma informed supports both the reporting party and the responding party because, in a trauma-informed investigation, you get the most robust evidence, even when working to a civil standard of proof.

The Deputy mentioned false allegations. We know they are incredibly rare. Internationally, they are incredibly rare. In higher education, they are incredibly rare. When we have a trauma-informed lens, and one also informed by considerations related to coercive control and domestic abuse, we have to recognise that false allegations do happen. In my time doing this type of work, the ones I actually encountered that were founded in an investigation were through deny, attack, and reverse victim and offender, DARVO, techniques. What happens is that a perpetrator will find out that the victim-survivor is going to make a report and will put a report in first, or immediately put in a counter-complaint. This is really common when domestic abuse or coercive control is in play, so we have to recognise that false allegations do indeed happen but that sometimes they are actually perpetrator tactics themselves. We keep an eye on that but all of it has to be done through a trauma-informed lens. The University of Galway is so great, and DkIT as well, because they take this approach. They are not at the trauma-aware stage; they are working towards the trauma-informed approach we hope can be achieved across higher education.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Good morning to all the witnesses. I thank them all for their opening statements. I commend them on all the work they are doing, including their policies, procedures and campaigns. They are very important.

We are living in quite frightening times. Representatives of Rape Crisis Ireland were before the committee a few weeks ago and gave us some stark statistics to the effect that 67% of young men between the ages of 18 and 29 have quite traditionalist or anti-feminist views. Many of these have been informed by what they are seeing online, through the targeting of young men online with misogynistic messages. It is all linked to algorithms. I presume the witnesses' work is quite difficult in that they are trying to fight against a rising tide of online misinformation.

I am also interested in the procedure. As the witnesses say, mostly it is female students who are making disclosures. They might make a disclosure to a trusted member of staff who has training. What is the next procedure? Is it that they go to Ms Kavanagh or Ms Murphy, who take it from there?

Ms Kavanagh mentioned investigators. If things go further and there is an investigation, is an outside person brought in? Is it within Ms Kavanagh's remit or is it within somebody else's remit in her institution?

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

We differentiate between a disclosure and a report. A disclosure means you tell somebody. That does not necessarily mean it is me or anybody in my office. A report involves a formal process under our policy. The report comes to me directly. I will meet the reporting party in what we call a case-management meeting, not to go through any detail in the report but to carry out a check. It is more of a welfare check and a risk assessment, covering how the person is doing and what supports they need. After that meeting, I convene the group Dr. Maher spoke about, namely the preliminary evaluation group. That group has representation from the office of the dean of students, the office of the director of HR and the head of counselling. Dr. Maher is the chair and I attend as the representative of the reporting party.

The group receives anonymised reports, so its members do not know who the parties are. They do not know the names or anything about the parties. If it involves students, I will refer to "student A" and "student B"; if it involves a student and a staff member, I will say "student" and "staff member", etc. This means members are not biased in any way when considering any issue. A concern of our students was that staff might be treated differently, so that is why we do this.

At the meeting, we discuss the risk and the welfare and supports that are needed, and then we agree a step forward. The step forward might be to move to a formal investigation. At the moment, we hire external investigators through normal procurement processes. We have three trauma-informed companies that can conduct investigations, and we are using them off the procurement framework. This is not ideal because it is time-consuming. I would much prefer to have either an in-house investigator to call upon or a national panel of investigators with expertise in this space. This would make the process much quicker for all involved.

We also have options for many interim measures we can put in place. We use no-contact arrangements. If the students might come into contact with each other, we make bespoke arrangements. We might say they cannot be in the same space or, if they are, that they should move along. If they are in the same lectures, for example, we will work with the lecturers to make sure they are kept apart and do not have to do group work, and so on. Every case is treated on its own merits, and we look at what is appropriate in that space.

If we have an investigation, it will come in with findings that the report is upheld or not upheld, or, if somebody has withdrawn from the process or whatever, there is no case to answer. If sanctioning is required, it then moves to the relevant disciplinary process. If, for example, a staff member were the responding party, the HR processes would be involved in sanctioning that person. If it were a student, the student code of conduct would apply. It steps outside our process but I or the case manager will stay with the process right until the end so the victim-survivor has one clear point of contact and can be kept up to date on the process from start to finish.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank Ms Kavanagh.

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

Was that okay?

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, it was very comprehensive. I presume there is a similar process in the other institution.

Are counselling and other supports accessed through what was outlined?

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

Yes. Social work or chaplaincy might be involved because, again, there are two parties. We are speaking as if there are two parties but in some cases there are several respondents. We need to go through this process to decide, and we try to give a named person rather than the employee assistance service or whatever. We say Clarissa, for example, will be the person's emotional support, while the case manager will be the procedural support. We are holding the space by keeping everybody involved safe.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ms Kavanagh mentioned that there are challenges. The institutions have their policies and procedures in place. Are the challenges over time or resources? What does Ms Kavanagh regard as the main challenges? If we had a magic wand here and could offer whatever resources are needed to make this process as robust as possible, what would they be?

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

There are many challenges. A national panel of investigators would certainly make it easier. We also need to support people. We need more named individuals. Where many reports are coming in, the social worker may already be assigned. It is a matter of how many cases people can actually support.

Resources are a big question. We have conflicts sometimes between GDPR, data protection and confidentiality. To speak to what Ms DiSantis said about publishing reports, that does not seem to be an option in our legislative field because of the principles of natural justice that apply. The sanction is not being told to the victim or survivor, which is very difficult for them to take. If, for example, somebody is suspended and they are going to come back, imagine the shock that person would get when they see this person again on campus.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They are not informed that the person would be back.

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

No. The sanction is not disclosed. It is disclosed that the matter has been dealt with; that it has gone to disciplinary. Things like that are bigger than a decision we can make at our institution. At a national level things like that need to be looked at, that is, the question of what takes precedence - GDPR, data protection, principles of natural justice, human rights, or being trauma-informed. There is always a conflict between all of those factors.

Dr. Edel Healy:

We indicated in our statement the desire to have sectoral consistency around policies and procedures. We all have separate policies and procedures and it would be more robust if we all had similar procedures. That would make sense.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We did receive policies from most higher education institutions and there is quite a difference.

Dr. Edel Healy:

There is, yes. That would be useful.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all the witnesses for their contributions this morning. I was listening online before I came in. It is wonderful to see them here outlining the policies and the work they are doing. I thank them for all the work they do in this area. It is disappointing that some of the other colleges could not make it today but we hope to engage further with them in the future. A lot of areas have been covered already but I wanted to say that this is a huge area for Ireland. It is so important that we continue to tackle this, raise awareness, support survivors and hold perpetrators to account. As has been said, this is a wider cultural problem. It does not start at college or university. It is part of our culture and can start at a much earlier time. Unfortunately it is happening on campus and during student life as well.

I want to ask about the University of Galway's Active* Consent programme. Does it work closely with other institutions on that? Is there much collaboration with UCC's Speak Out project, for example, or with other institutions?

Ms Clarissa DiSantis:

I am so delighted that we are having these conversations at this level of Government. I am buzzing and I am so excited to be here today. It is unique to have the committee's attention on these matters for higher education. For Active* Consent, we collaborate with universities across Ireland. We also work internationally in terms of the US and the UK. Here in Ireland, in the past year alone we engaged with all 17 universities. We put on different training events, including an entire day in November where we had 16 universities represented, along with the Irish Universities Association, when we delivered foundations in investigation training for sexual violence. We are constantly working with universities on multiple projects.

Our clinical and therapeutic lead, Gemma MacNally, was on the group that developed Speak Out. She helped develop Speak Out in her role. We are on multiple projects across the Higher Education Authority, for example, the research that was just published, "Qualitative research exploring experiences of disclosing and reporting sexual violence and harassment to higher education institutions (Action 12)", which we supported. I could go through a whole big list but we are very much engaged. Collaboration is so important. As the SVH managers here in this space have highlighted, they are doing the day job and they are the response. It puts pressure on prevention work. We need the prevention work to be integrated into policy and practice. We see ourselves as a resource. Uniquely, we are an evidence-based programme. So many different curriculums I used in my role in the UK were not evidence-based. They were not based on primary research or evaluated annually. At Active* Consent, we do that. We are using primary research and developing all of our workshops and training through a research process, and annually evaluating everything. It is always up to date and in line with what we need. The feedback we receive from the SVH managers and the students and staff who participate on our programmes is key.

Dr. Edel Healy:

In DkIT, we have the RiVeR project, which is the whole area of DSGBV education, research and training, and Active* Consent is on the steering committee.

Ms Clarissa DiSantis:

Yes, sorry.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is great to hear that Ms DiSantis welcomes that we are having these conversations. The committee is really keen to shed light on it and the Cathaoirleach is leading on this. There is a lot of work to be done. On the issue of spiking, I wanted to ask the witnesses if they had concerns in that area. It came up previously at the committee. Is there a need for further legislation on this, or awareness in terms of the risks it poses?

Ms Clarissa DiSantis:

On the prevention side, in our e-learning course, called "sexual violence and harassment: how to support yourself and peers", we cover all three forms of spiking. We cover spiking by substance, whether it is drugs or alcohol, because obviously you can spike by alcohol as well. We cover spiking by injection and spiking by vape, which is a new trend we are seeing, particularly at festivals with young people. We are raising awareness about spiking in that space but we very much do not take a victim-blaming position. We will inform people of how these things happen but only the perpetrator is to blame for spiking. I will let someone else come in on the response side but we have that in our prevention side.

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

We are seeing a little bit more spiking, all right. It is an issue. Our students' union is very good and has gone out and spoken about spiking before. We have run campaigns such as Out Safe, Home Safe. We implemented "ask for Angela" with our students' union as well. It is something we are seeing more of. It is causing fear. I have had students and staff come forward about fears around spiking, so it is being spoken about. I think legislation on it would be welcome.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is really worrying. I had never heard of spiking by vaping until Ms DiSantis just said it now. There is a huge lack of awareness of the different methods predators are using now in terms of spiking. The need for legislation was highlighted by Mary Crilly in the Cork sexual violence centre as well. What supports do the institutions need from the Government or the HEA to carry out their work? Is it funding, more joined-up policies? That has been touched on already but the witnesses may want to say more about that.

Dr. Helen Maher:

As we move to the implementation of the framework on ending sexual violence and harassment, the recommendations of the advisory group are very comprehensive. It is an expert group. The implementation of those recommendations to the full extent, as was envisaged on the basis of the consultation across the sector, is really important. As so much of this conversation has highlighted, it is not a single, stand-alone issue for higher education institutions. This is a whole-of-society issue. We are becoming in some way desensitised to the number of reports of femicide we are seeing nationally. If we look at this as a whole-of-government and whole-of-society approach, there are multi-agency and multi-Department responses required to join up the line from post-primary to higher education, which we talked about in terms of prevention and response.

Regulation is absent in terms of the online world. I know it is possibly a bigger ask than the capacity of the national legislative context but advocating for greater regulation and moderation of online content is a really important piece of work. It may be outside of what we are referring to here but it is integral to the type of changes that are required across the sector. Having prevention and response threaded throughout, the Department of justice has a role in this regard as well, Cuan obviously having a dedicated national agency and strategic implementation. In addition, there is the role of the Department of Health, which seems somewhat absent from the implementation and emphasis. That joined-up thinking is critical. The HEA has invested in this sector in terms of the sexual violence and harassment prevention and response managers but the members can see from what they have heard today about the body of work that is being undertaken by individuals.

As Ms Kavanagh and our colleagues in DkIT have pointed out, we are supported by the sectoral expertise of the practitioners and researchers and by our partners in civil society, rape crisis centres and so on but there is still a requirement for more investment and more resourcing. When initially this work was under the auspices of the HEA, with the first framework on consent, multiple roles were identified as being central to effective implementation and prevention and response in every institution and we were successful in achieving a single role. The committee has heard the reference to investigation and the importance of resourcing that role. That is key as well going forward. A number of the colleagues have referred to this as a jigsaw, and I often think about that in a strategic context. We are only as good as the sum total of all of the pieces here, so the multiple response approach we have referred to is required to really affect the kind of cultural changes needed. Increasingly, we all remain shocked by the direction of travel with regard to what is happening in the normalising of behaviours, referring back to how that has been addressed in the discussion today. I am just conscious that there is a different view around it.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have few questions before we go for round two, if anyone is interested. The national investigation unit and sectoral legal support were mentioned by Dr. Healy. How would they help in an overall context to ensure consistency of implementation, data collection, reviews, to look at investigation times and all those issues? How would it work and where would the unit sit?

Dr. Edel Healy:

It was referred to before that if someone has to get an investigator, they have to go through procurement processes. There is a time thing involved in that, first. If there was a central unit, then the person would know be going straight away and there would be speed. These scenarios are very sensitive situations and time is of the essence. Having a central unit where the staff have the expertise and they are dealing with these all the time is important. People know they can go there and their case will be investigated rapidly. That is really important in terms of the people involved. That is the first piece.

The second is to build up a critical mass of expertise in the unit so that they are used to looking at the multiple types of cases that exist across all of the colleges and that they approach them in a consistent manner. I do not know if "case law" is the right phrase, but maybe it is in this instance, and critical mass is built up. That is very important as well. Where does it sit? That is a good question. I am not sure of the answer to that one. That would have to be given some consideration and maybe align somehow to the HEA, but I am not sure. Perhaps colleagues might answer.

Dr. Helen Maher:

Research was done on the establishment of the investigation shared services. The HEA acquired some funding to pilot the establishment and unfortunately, I think it was not substantial enough to meet what would be required in effectively establishing a shared-services investigation unit. As to where it would sit, as long as it is appropriately resourced, then I think that question will actually be answered. The HEA is under its own resource constraints in terms of how to support this work, and has been really effective. Again, there needs to be investment into the HEA or into the higher education sector, or maybe an independent shared service that we all can avail of. As Dr. Healy said, it is about building the capacity of expertise and of embedding trauma-informed practice into the investigation. Ms Kavanagh has done a lot of work on procurement of appropriate investigation services which, of course, have to be trauma informed.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Where do we find those investigators?

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

They have to be trauma-informed but I am not exactly sure how that is tested at a procurement level. If someone says they are trauma-informed, what does that actually mean? Colleagues are working through it with various companies and they are not satisfied with what they are getting. That is all I can say on that.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a big gap in support and knowledge and each investigation is a new challenge. The delays are delaying potential support for people.

Ms Clarissa DiSantis:

With every university having their own policies and procedures, investigators would have to be led by the procedures of the institution they are working to so that they are not opening themselves up for appeal or any liability. It is a massive piece of work to put that together but it would be a huge help to the institutions to have qualified trauma- informed investigations but even more so for the students and employees who are raising reports or under investigation, to have qualified people doing the work.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not pre-empt our recommendations but there is a big practical and real recommendation coming that would make administrative sense and have the benefit of having support at the end of it.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have had several meetings on this and at every one, we were learning something new. We are not repeating the same thing over and over again. The witnesses coming here is so important for the committee to be able to compile its report on this. I have to commend the Chair. Because of the sensitive nature of this, time has been left run over but this conversation needed to be had and everybody needed to be heard in it. This conversation needs to be had not only in the education committee, but also in the committee that deals with sports. If a big GAA star told young lads that what they see online is not reality, they might listen more to that person than to teachers. I do not mean to be dismissive of teachers but that is a way around this because we are not going to combat it online. We are not going to stop it. It is going to happen. They are going to find ways around it. The only way we can do it is by being proactive in leaning in on it. I do not really have any more questions. I just want to thank everybody who has come in because this is a very important piece of work. If we are going to save any more victims, male or female, this is very important and it needs to be done. I commend everyone on their participation.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to ask about prevention. Before I do, I want to ask Ms Kavanagh a question about the internal investigation she referred to. How does that intersect with any criminal investigation that may be taking place?

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

We have in our policy that we have a Garda liaison, as most universities do. We always offer the victim respondent - it it is appropriate - the opportunity to speak to the Garda liaison and understand the criminal process. They may or may not decide to go that route. If they go that route, we reserve the right to pause the investigation because if the university proceeds and comes up with a finding, it could have a huge impact on the criminal investigation and we need to step back from that.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the cases where that has happened, is co-operation with An Garda Síochána good? I am conscious that the person who may be reporting might be leaving their journey with Ms Kavanagh's team while the investigation is going on. Are there recommendations we can make to improve that co-operation and relationship?

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

It is important that the Department of Justice and An Garda Síochána are aware of this work and that we exist and that not all victim survivors of sexual violence need to go through a criminal investigation and that we are here to have a different investigation within the university that might bring them some closure and healing on their journey. It is important gardaí and the protective services unit understand that we are involved and we are doing work. Sometimes I am not sure they are exactly clear on our role in this, so a little bit more joined-up thinking between the Departments might be useful.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There is, therefore, room for improvement in co-operation and appreciation of each other's separate but important and-----

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

Distinct roles.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, absolutely. That is good to know. From listening today and when we consider all of different areas, we are seeing increased reporting, which is very welcome. We are seeing an increase in sexual and gender-based violence. Is work being done in the universities, academically or otherwise, with reporting the information that is being gathered? Is there work being done to examine the risk factors that lead to a perpetrator committing this particular type of crime or this type of act?

What work has been done in that space? I am very interested in that.

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

Apart from the training, we do a lot of prevention work around legislation and what is and is not acceptable in DkIT. One of the things is making people aware of their behaviours and having conversations. Using active bystander training has been very good for getting people to think about what they are doing, giving them different scenarios and getting them to talk about what they would do in the situation. For example, it could be something around sexual harassment or misogyny. It is about getting them to reflect on their behaviour.

One of the things we are dealing with when we look at the online space and content out there, whether it is from influencers or porn, is that much of the time people are being dehumanised. When we rehumanise and use our prevention work to do that, people are less likely to harm someone. That is very important. We talk about it all the time. We constantly have campaigns going on and we give people permission to have conversations. We also give people permission to disagree with us. There are a lot of workshops around green flags and red flags. I am regularly on campus at different events, where students will come up and talk about what green flags are in a relationship. At that stage, we get to challenge things. People can come up and say they think green flags are one thing and we can ask if that is really the case.

A lot of work and education has been done. We are giving them tools and making them aware of legislation and policies. Particularly when we live in a world where we are being subjected to a lot of dehumanising content, that rehumanising piece is very important. It is about working on the empathy piece, which seems to be making a difference.

Ms Clarissa DiSantis:

Speaking to the risk factors, we know how people become sexual offenders. This is not new information. This is not something where people just wake up one day and decide to rape another person. We are informed by the sexual violence pyramid, where we understand the thoughts and attitudes in our society that allow people to dehumanise others through views of inequality that move structurally into our communities and organisations allow for verbal harassment, then move into physical violence and end with homicide or suicide. This is not reinventing the wheel. We have this knowledge and we work to that.

For our purposes with Active* Consent, we are using prevention education for a couple of different things. There are people who are learning about sex through pornography and experiences that are not representative of sex; it is representative of sexual violence and rape. We have to educate those who are being informed on sex education in this way. However, many perpetrators know full well they do not have consent. It is not a lack of knowledge. We have to create a culture of consent that does not tolerate sexual violence in our community. At present, our community tolerates sexual violence quite well, so until we have a culture that puts consent first, we are working against the tide.

As part of Active* Consent, we work on campuses and in sport. We work with the Irish rugby team, Game Changer, the GAA, Men's Development Network and Ruhama. There is probably another partner I am missing and I apologise if I have forgotten who they are. We work across communities to create cultures of consent. In the same way it is not okay to walk into a restaurant and pull out a cigarette, or it is not okay to drive without your seat belt, we have created a societal expectation that these things need to happen. We have to create a societal expectation that consent is paramount. For those perpetrators who know they do not have consent but choose to harm anyway, they need to be held accountable and need to know it is not okay in our communities.

We use peer education. We have an Active* Champions programme, where we bring students on board and train them up through a 12-hour training programme. We have them in a few universities here in Ireland. In the University of Galway, we are able to pay them an hourly living wage for their work in helping to create prevention and consent culture on campus, but we have to get that across the piece. It is not enough to say, "Do you know the legal definition of consent?" because they do. They know that. We have to create a society that says sexual violence is not tolerated here. Until we are there, we will always be going against the tide. That is our aim and all my colleagues here are nodding their heads. That is what we are working towards, but we have to do that at the same time we are doing response and we need to do that in a sustainable way.

The last thing I will say is that we at Active* Consent offer all our education materials to secondary, higher and further education for free through our funding. However, we are only able to do that with sustained funding. Currently, we have 15 different programmes in higher education alone across students and staff that are evidence-based and researched, which are currently at no cost to the institutions using them. We put them out on a creative commons licence. In order to do this work, and sustain it in the way we do it to create a culture of consent for the prevention of sexual violence, we have to have that level of support.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The DkIT witnesses said they work regularly with Rape Crisis North East and Women's Aid in Dundalk. Does the University of Galway also work with the outside agencies? Some of them would have said there was not collaboration in all cases. That is important because, as was said, it is like a map or jigsaw. It is everybody working together.

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

We work a lot with Galway Rape Crisis Centre. Its director, Cathy Connolly, is on our sexual violence and harassment prevention and response committee. She is also on the governing authority of the university. We work with them in that capacity as well as an Active* Consent partner with them, as does the university, on some of our training initiatives, such as sexual harassment in the workplace and our first point of contact. Those agencies are truly partners in a real sense.

Dr. Edel Healy:

In Dundalk, we have a number of accredited programmes in the area of DSGBV and some of the delivery of those programmes is given by people from those agencies, including some of the modules. There is a real meaningful impact of services in education.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I believe DkIT offers a master's degree in domestic, sexual and gender-based violence studies. Is it the only one in the country?

Dr. Edel Healy:

That is correct. We just recently validated that and it is currently open for its first intake in September. It has a number of modules within it that are also being offered as individual micro-credentials. Interestingly, on the conversation we have had this morning, there are modules on trauma-informed care, consent and coercive control. All the modules are on the topics talked about here today, so people can do them in bite-sized pieces. We are starting that in September.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is very welcome. It is something nearly everybody should be undertaking, regardless of where they work, but particularly if they work in the Garda, the judicial system or whatever. We talk about under-reporting and people being afraid they will not be believed. Even speaking with victim-survivors who have gone through a court process, they often say it is more traumatic than the initial abuse or assault itself.

Dr. Edel Healy:

We have been running a level 8 certificate programme in understanding and responding to DSGBV for the past number of years, which we developed with all the stakeholders in our area. Nearly 350 people have completed it and it is a mixture of front-line people working in refuges, gardaí and those working in social work in the hospitals. What we are hearing is that people being in a classroom together is amazing learning because they are working in a multidisciplinary way with the survivors. That is the learning, as well as the accredited piece. Education is key. We all know that and we are obviously all coming from an education lens here. However, I think we have shown that in a practical way.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for today. They are doing very important work. As they said, maybe a common policy across all the HEAs would be important, as well as the panel of investigators and all the other things they proposed.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Obviously, the issue of resourcing came up in both statements. It was also stressed last week, particularly by the Irish Federation of University Teachers, IFUT. In Dundalk's opening statement, it was noted it has four projects with HEA performance funding. Is that easily accessed? How has that been accessed?

Dr. Edel Healy:

The RiVeR project was funded by performance funding, but Ms Molloy was talking about collaborative funding.

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

That is under EDI funding. Dr. Maher might be able to talk a little more about that.

Dr. Helen Maher:

The EDI funding is an annual fund provided on a competitive basis by the Higher Education Authority. It targets the policy areas the HEA has under its domain with regard to equality, diversity and inclusion.

That would include race equality, gender equality and ending sexual violence and harassment, as well as broader intersectional aspects of equality, including, for example, disability. It is a competitive fund but we undertake collaborative and collective work in terms of bidding for it. There is no guarantee but there have been a number of successes. Both Ms Kavanagh and Ms Molloy have mentioned a number of projects that have been funded under it. Sectoral projects often involve most of the higher education institutions. Sometimes, four or five are involved and, other times, there is involvement across the whole sector.

One of the more recent sectoral projects involved men engaging in advocating for and supporting work in this area. That has been undertaken over the past year or year and a half and has gone forward again for a second round of funding. It is one particular example. Ms Kavanagh might wish to say more about it.

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

The idea behind that project goes back to what Deputy McGettigan was saying earlier about needing to engage men, particularly young men. It is a men's leadership programme led by Atlantic Technological University, ATU. We are partners on it, as is DkIT. It has been a fantastic programme, with some 50 men across the higher education sector in Ireland engaged in it. They have attended two residential courses in Athlone to learn about gender equality, pornographic literacy and everything they need to learn about to help us on this journey. It is about having a cohort of men within our institutions whom we can call on to get involved in interventions. As we have discussed today, a lot of the pastoral care in universities is done with women. We really need to influence our young men. We recognise that engaging men in this way might help us to do that and to get them more on board. It has been a fantastic programme and compliments go to ATU on leading it. We hope to get a second round of funding for it and we will see where that takes us.

Dr. Helen Maher:

Project funding is really helpful in carrying out this kind of work but the mainstreaming part is vital. It is about making these interventions the norm, integrating them and having it understood that they are a critical part of work in this area. There will always be a need to build capacity. There will be new cohorts of students, new people involved in higher education and new student leaders in terms of the student union infrastructure. That fund has also funded some of the research Ms DiSantis made reference to on student experiences of disclosure, doing first-point-of-contact training, etc. My apologies; in fact, that was funded independently and separately under the Irish Research Council. The point stands that there is real value in such projects in bringing to bear a shared, collaborative approach and shared knowledge and expertise, including in building capacity. However, funding that is project based and competitive has its own limitations.

Ms Niamh Kavanagh:

On the men's leadership programme, the dream of its steering group is that it would become a programme recognised in the same way as the Aurora programme, albeit a men's leadership programme, and would be offered on annual basis across the institutions. That really would be the dream for it.

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

Programmes like this are something of which we need more. We need men to step into this space and have confidence in actually being our allies and helping us to sort out these problems. It is very hard to get men involved, but if GAA stars or leaders within higher education start talking about this with confidence and empathy and a willingness to support us, that is where we will get real change. It is very important work. The projects we work on are absolutely fantastic. It means we are talking to each other, collaborating and coming up with new solutions. However, they are only projects and they need to continue, not just be one-hit wonders.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have one more question. There seems to be unanimity about the need for a national office serving all third level institutions. The Irish Federation of University Teachers, IFUT, was strong on that last week. One of the recommendations the DkIT representatives made today is the establishment of a national specialised investigation unit. Are they saying that such a unit should be doing the investigations rather than the institution itself?

Ms Siobhan Molloy:

Yes. We spoke about this. It must be done in a trauma-informed way, which is really important. There also must be urgency and speed. If we have to procure investigation units, it takes time and there is not a consistency of approach. Victim-survivors need speed and urgency, not waiting for things to go through procurement, perhaps not being completely happy with the person who is investigating or the investigation not being done in a trauma-informed way. That is something we are all concerned about. It would really add to the process and provide a better experience to have a national investigation unit for our victim-survivors.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all the witnesses. Today's meeting has been really insightful. It has also been incredibly frightening but I have an underlying feeling of optimism that comes from the great work the witnesses are doing, the honesty with which they go about their jobs and the confidence they have instilled that if someone comes to their offices, they will be met with kindness and compassion and there will be somebody there to help them. That is the very baseline of all the work the committee is trying to do in this area. We want to support the witnesses to make things better for people.

It is very clear that there are hugely dedicated staff working in this area. People are absolutely committed to this work and to leading on it in a trauma-informed and person-centred way. That is really reassuring. I congratulate the witnesses on all their work. I am very familiar with the RiVeR Project in DkIT. I am very biased towards that project because of my familiarity with it. I am proud of the work being done there. It is creating a better future and, indeed, a better now. It is providing education and creating the allies we need across the sector.

Today's meeting is not just about talking about policies and finding out whether they exist. It is also about whether they are working in practice. It is very clear that they work in practice when they are met with the right resources and the right timing. It is also very clear that when the witnesses are busy working with people who have suffered, it is taking away from the work they need to do in the area of prevention. There is a huge body of work we want to do and we want to support the witnesses in doing. We are at the bottom of a hill but at least we can see the hill. These committee meetings have been so worthwhile and I am very grateful for the testimony we have heard. It has been upsetting to hear what people are going through. I thank the witnesses for their commitment to this area. It is not easy to be on the front line. I am upset listening to what is going on. It is really important that they look after themselves as well. I thank them very much for their time today. It was too difficult for other institutions to be represented today because of scheduling, holidays and so on. We are lucky to have the witnesses here today. On behalf of the committee, I thank them all for their engagement with us today.

We will suspend briefly now to allow the witnesses to depart before going into private session to deal with housekeeping matters.