Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 8 July 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture and Food
Hemp Production: Discussion (Resumed)
2:00 am
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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No apologies have been received. I will begin with a note on privilege. Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precinct are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means that a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Cathaoirleach's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Cathaoirleach in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are to give evidence from a location outside of the parliamentary precinct are asked to note they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precinct and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside of the proceedings of the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings. Everybody taking part is in the room and there are no witnesses online.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside of the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in a committee meeting when the participation is from within the parliamentary precinct. Members may not participate online in a public meeting from outside the parliamentary precinct. Any attempt to do so will result in the member having their access removed.
The agenda for today is a resumed discussion on hemp production. The committee will hear from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine and from it, cuirim fáilte roimh Dr. Barry O'Reilly, senior inspector, and Mr. James Quirke, agricultural inspector. From Teagasc, cuirim fáilte roimh Mr. John Spink, head of crops, environmental and land use program. From Wild Atlantic Hemp, cuirim fáilte roimh Mr. Daniel Lyons, hemp farmer. From Loop Head Together GLC, cuirim fáilte roimh Ms Margaret Cotter, cathaoirleach.
The opening statements have been circulated. I will give witnesses five minutes to go through the opening statements and then give members the opportunity to ask some questions and get some answers. I draw members' attention to the fact the Teagasc opening statement is the same as last week's so we will not read through it again as they have already heard that. I will give the witnesses the floor and we will start with five minutes from an Roinn talmhaíochta.
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and the committee members for the opportunity to discuss the topic of hemp production. The growing and cultivation of hemp has been the subject of some debate in recent years. The Department regularly received hemp related correspondence from interested parties, including on the legislative position and the potential commercial development of the industry. At the outset, I would like to set out the regulatory framework concerning the production of hemp in Ireland. Cannabis and hemp both derive from the species cannabis sativa and contain tetrahydrocannabinol, THC. Hemp is therefore a controlled drug under the misuse of drugs legislative framework and is subject to the strictest levels of control.
Current legislation in Ireland does not allow for the growing of hemp unless a specific licence has been granted by the Health Products Regulatory Authority, HPRA, which operates under the auspices of the Department of Health. The cultivation of hemp is limited to varieties having less than 0.3% content of THC. These varieties must be registered in the EU common catalogue of varieties of agricultural plant species and marketed in accordance with Council Directive 2002-57-EC on the marketing of seed of oil and fibre plants. The licence to cultivate hemp does not permit access to the THC contained in the plant. The stalk, fibre and seed of the hemp plant are not subject to control measures once removed from the plant. However, applicants who apply for a licence to cultivate hemp from the HPRA must personally sign an undertaking that the controlled parts of the hemp plant, namely, the leaves and flower, must not be processed or sold onwards, which are both offences under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1977, and must be destroyed on cultivation.
As the misuse of drugs legislative framework is the responsibility of the Department of Health, questions on this framework are therefore a matter for that Department. Hemp is included as an eligible crop under the basic income support for sustainability scheme. Data from the basic income support for sustainability scheme indicates the area of hemp in 2026 was approximately 11 ha. Hemp has many uses, including in the construction, car manufacturing, paper, animal bedding, clothing and food industries. Hemp is a crop that is agronomically suited to many parts of Ireland and offers potential opportunities for crop diversification and crop rotation. However, the area of hemp production remains low.
The Department previously, as part of a process to fully explore fibre crops such as hemp and consider whether these crops have a viable market, initiated a consultative process in August 2021 to examine the commercial viability of growing hemp for fibre use. In making submissions as part of the consultation, stakeholders were requested to take into consideration the following questions. What markets exist for fibre from crops, including hemp? What are the strengths and weaknesses of fibre crops? What is the scalability of the Irish fibre crop and hemp industry, taking into account market size and value, industry processing capacity and adequate economic returns for all along the supply chain?
The report on this consultation was published in December 2022. The main finding of the report was that the growing of fibre crops, such as hemp, for the purposes of fibre production is not currently viable in Ireland. Potential markets exist for hemp fibre, with its use in the construction industry offering the most significant opportunity. However, the report concluded that the scaling up of hemp crop production would be dependent on numerous factors, including the development of stable markets, significant capital investment to increase processing capacity, and collaboration with all stakeholders along the supply chain, all of which must be industry-led. The report also noted that while the outcome of the consultation did not support the viability of fibre crops such as hemp in Ireland, it is a matter for the industry to address and bring forward a proposal containing viable options for consideration. The Department would welcome any such proposal.
I mention the proposal to amend the common market organisation, CMO, regulation as part of the post-2027 CAP proposals. The proposal allows for harmonised EU rules covering all parts of the hemp plant with a maximum legal THC limit of 0.3%. Discussions are continuing on the proposal under the Irish Presidency.
I again thank the committee for the opportunity to come before it to discuss the topic of hemp production. I, or my colleague Mr. Quirke, will be happy to take any questions members of the committee may have.
Mr. Daniel Lyons:
I thank the committee for the opportunity to speak here today. I am founder and director of Wild Atlantic Hemp. I have been involved in the Irish hemp industry since 2018. Over that time, I have worked across almost every stage of the sector, from cultivation and processing to research and industry development. Along the way, our company took part in Enterprise Ireland's new frontiers programme. I completed a master's degree in agricultural innovation at Galway University, where I researched industrial hemp. I was a founding member of the Hemp Co-operative of Ireland and I worked with the Food Safety Authority of Ireland, FSAI, and the HSE to establish a hemp processing facility in Kilkee, County Clare.
My work has also expanded into collaborative research and innovation. In 2021, I worked with the Loop Head community to secure funding for Hemp4Soil, an agricultural innovation project funded by the Department of agriculture. In 2023, Wild Atlantic Hemp became a project partner in SOILCRATES, a Horizon Europe regenerative farming project across four countries. More recently, we joined the SCEENE project, a community-driven pilot project exploring biochar production and carbon sequestration.
Healthy soils are the foundation of every successful farm and yet, across Europe, including Ireland, soil degradation is becoming a major issue. This is due to years of increasingly intensive farming. Historically, farmers returned huge amounts of organic matter to the soil. Today, much of that has been replaced by manufactured fertilisers which feed the crop but do not necessarily feed the living biology within the soil. At the same time, due to geopolitical events, farmers are facing rising production costs, particularly for fertilisers, which are produced by the petrochemical industry. I believe this is encouraging us to look again at alternative crops such as hemp and alternative fertilisers such as anaerobic digestate, microbial teas and biochar. These solutions help rebuild healthy, living soils while reducing dependency on imported inputs.
Ireland also faces another challenge. If we fail to meet our greenhouse gas reduction commitments, the State could face billions of euro in climate compliance costs over the coming years. According to the European Commission, one hectare of industrial hemp can sequester between nine and 15 tonnes of carbon dioxide in a single growing season, roughly the same amount as a young forest but in just five months. Once harvested, another crop can often be grown on the same land and hemp has been shown to improve the yield of subsequent crops by 10% to 15%. On top of that, it can be grown with lower fertiliser inputs and, in most cases, without pesticides.
One plant can produce three separate revenue streams for farmers. The stalk provides both shiv - the woody core used in hempcrete or converted into biochar - and bast fibre, which is used in insulation and composite materials. The seed can be processed into oil, protein and dietary fibre for both animal feed and human consumption. Looking ahead, farmers may also be able to generate additional income through carbon farming and carbon credit schemes.
Despite its potential, there are still several significant barriers to the development of the hemp industry in Ireland. Annual licensing is a big problem. Hemp cultivation is currently licensed on a one-year basis, making it difficult for farmers to plan ahead or invest in specialised machinery, drying facilities and processing infrastructure. Market certainty is another big problem. Farmers need the confidence to secure contracts before planting, knowing that there will be a guaranteed market for their crop at harvest. Processing infrastructure is another big issue. Ireland needs regional processing facilities so that hemp can be processed quickly after harvest. Farmers should not be expected to store large volumes of hemp for extended periods while waiting for a processor or factory to acquire it. Supply chain development needs to be looked at as well. Investment is needed throughout the supply chain, from harvesting and decortication to fibre processing and biochar production, to ensure farmers can realise the full potential of the crop.
An Irish company, Kingspan, is leading the way in hemp-based insulation, yet the hemp is sourced through mainland Europe rather than from Irish farms. This is a missed opportunity. We need to be producing these materials here in Ireland. I thank the committee for listening.
Ms Margaret Cotter:
Gabhaim buíochas roimh an Cathaoirleach and the committee members for the opportunity to contribute to this discussion on hemp. I am here in my capacity as chairperson of Loop Head Together, a voluntary organisation based on the Loop Head Peninsula in County Clare. It is an area described by its own local authority as being in a state of terminal population decline. Not uniquely to rural coastal communities in the west of Ireland, the two principal economic drivers in Loop Head are agriculture and tourism. The local community is committed to supporting both and also to attempting to turn the tide of population decline. This led to the formation of Loop Head Together, an umbrella group representing approximately 50 partner voluntary organisations across an area of over 200 sq. km and encompassing around 60 km of the Wild Atlantic Way coastline.
In 2021-22, Loop Head Together administered the Hemp4Soil project, a European Innovation Partnership, EIP, project funded by the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine through EIP-Agri. The Hemp4Soil project was a pioneering initiative aimed at advancing regenerative agricultural practices through the cultivation of industrial hemp, with a specific focus on enhancing soil health, biodiversity and carbon sequestration and, more broadly, to understand if there was an appetite for industrial hemp cultivation. Conducted as a one-year field study on the Loop Head Peninsula, the project sought to explore the potential of hemp to restore degraded soils without the use of chemical inputs, while also exploring alternative revenue streams for our farmers through crop diversification. This was carried out through assessment of whether industrial hemp, grown with and without organic soil amendments, such as biochar and biochar mixed with farmyard slurry, could improve soil quality and microbial biodiversity on minimally managed lands. There were nine participating farmers, each providing an acre of land, and they were all supported in their licensing and regulatory requirements by the project group.
Hemp4Soil demonstrated that, with organic amendments and no other above ground management, it is possible to grow industrial hemp on traditionally low input systems or what might otherwise be considered marginal land. However, acquiring licences can be time consuming and seed cannot be sown until the licence has been granted. Any delay will potentially impact on seeding date. Delays with licensing delayed our seeding date, which hindered crop establishment. On licensing, the regulatory process is off-putting for farmers. This process needs to be simplified and also changed to multi-year licensing, if there is a will at departmental level to increase industrial hemp production.
From the success of the project's farmer recruitment and outreach programme, a clear appetite for diversification, regenerative farming practices and industrial hemp production was demonstrated among highly diverse groups, including dairy farmers, landowners, the local authority, Teagasc and the general public. However, despite the level of outreach we engaged in, increasing the scale and scope of hemp growing in our community was challenging due to the lack of access to decortication infrastructure and, thus, access to market. This has significantly hampered our original intention to develop a local bioeconomy centred on hemp, although it has not deterred us and we continue to explore this sector. There is a gap between the farmer and the market that needs to be bridged.
In addition to the multitude of purposes for which hemp can be used in industry, we have underscored how, with pyrolysis, it may also be used as an effective soil amendment in conjunction with farmyard slurry. Further exploration of this carbon sequestration potential for this combination would be beneficial and the potential production of hemp biochar, particularly for sub-par crop output that is perhaps unsuitable for use in the shiv or fibre-related industries.
From the perspective of our development group, this project changed how we as a rural and coastal community engage with the broader European research ecosystem. In this regard, we have continued this engagement with academic partners and our local farming community to explore how we can further develop the learnings of this project. We are now creating a living laboratory as part of an EU-wide EIP named SOILCRATES and are leading on an additional EIP, SCEENE, in an effort to explore soil carbon enhancement, part of which involves help production, pyrolysis and the growth of specific plant species, including hemp, within run-off buffer zones. I welcome any questions and thank the committee for the opportunity to speak.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Members will have six minutes each and we may have another round of questions afterwards.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. I have no doubt they were tuned in to last week's proceedings, so there is no point in going back over all the benefits of hemp. Those of us who were not familiar with the crop before our meeting last week are beginning to ask why we are not growing a lot more hemp in this country. As I said last week, I had a Bill written, the agricultural products Bill, which proposed to transfer responsibility for licensing from the Department of health to the Department of agriculture. On the back of some of the meetings I had with some of the witnesses who were here last week, the Bill has gone back to drafting. It is not going away, however.
With the greatest respect to Ms Cotter and Mr. Lyons, most of my questions will be directed at the Department. What level of enthusiasm is there in the Department for this crop? Let us start with the tillage crisis we have. Here is a crop with massive potential. It is an ideal rotation crop and there is a good return from it. We were told last week that a farmer could potentially get a return of between €350 and €400 per acre - not per hectare - from hemp. That is not to mention all the positive uses of the product, including in construction. Teagasc has proved that there is a 10% to 15% yield improvement from hemp in the second year it is sown because of the great work it does in regenerating the soil. Hemp can grow on any kind of land, is easily grown and needs very few pesticides or chemical fertilisers. Everything about it seems to be positive, other than that it is classified and licensed under the Misuse of Drugs Act. Licences only last for one year, whereas multi-year licences are needed.
I know we have no choice but to use this language, but talking about something that is a controlled substance under the Misuse of Drugs Act is in itself an inhibitor and puts people off. Is the Department willing to embrace this product? In its statement, it noted that the stalk and fibre of hemp do not need to be subject to the same control as the controlled substances listed under the Misuse of Drugs Act. Would the Department not embrace a proposal to use hemp fibres and stalks?
Dr. O'Reilly said also that it has to be industy-led but multiple farmers would need to be growing to supply industry. We had people here last week and one person was prepared to invest €20 million in a business. Somebody needs to lead on this and the Department should. With the greatest of respect, there does not seem to be an appetite in the Department to grab the proverbial bull by the horns and be the leader. All the witnesses who were here today and all who were here last week would row in with the Department. All they need is leadership and a central focal point. There is a lot of funding involved but even if funding is obtained, the biggest problem is that if the farmers are not incentivised, encouraged or rewarded by the Department to grow the crop, they will not have the suppliers. The Department is the only one that can pull the farmers and the supply chain for this together. In doing so, it would improve soil regeneration, carbon sequestration and environmental farming. I have spoken for longer than I intended. Dr. O'Reilly might come back to me as to what attitude the Department might have on this going forward.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for stopping Dr. O'Reilly. It is not that I am walking out over anything he said but I have to go. I will read his answers after. I have to go to the Seanad to vote.
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
-----and the importance of the tillage sector. It is an important sector and one we want to increase. A lot of work is being done to increase the area under tillage crops at the moment. There are a lot of reasons for this, which the Senator will be familiar with, relating to climate, the jobs it creates, the value of it and the contribution it makes to the livestock, food and animal feed sectors. There is no reason the tillage sector cannot make a bigger contribution to other sectors, such as the construction sector by providing raw materials. We have a strategy in place, namely, the food vision tillage group strategy. The group was set up in 2023 and its detailed report was published in 2024. A lot of work is ongoing in collaboration with other stakeholders in implementing its recommendations. Adding value is a big part of that. Adding value to the crops is one of the keys to the long-term sustainability of the tillage sector. Tillage farmers are-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Does Dr. O'Reilly not see the potential of hemp as a lifeline for the tillage sector?
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Would the Department not encourage hemp as one of those areas for added value, diversification, sequestration and soil regeneration? Is that not a nettle that it will grab and run with and try to throw a lifeline to the tillage sector?
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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There has to be an accessible licence. We are talking about the licence here and the Department of agriculture has to get involved with that licence.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry but I have to go now.
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
At the moment, growing hemp is not really a viable option for tillage farmers because there is not the return from the marketplace. We do not have any processing facilities at the moment. If a farmer grows a crop of hemp for fibre production, where does that farmer bring that crop to get it processed? There is a lack of information and data around what the market can return to farmers to make it worth their while economically to grow the crop. Until we address that market situation to create a viable, stable market, to give confidence to farmers to grow the crop and to give them a return that will make it economically worth the while to grow it, we will not get much production of hemp here.
The licensing issue is separate.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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For information purposes, the bells could go for either the Dáil or the Seanad and members will be in and out as they called for voting. The witnesses will be able to see it on the screens. We will aim to have a second round of questions, depending on demand.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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We are talking about tillage and how we are trying to promote it. At the moment, tillage is decreasing in this country. Do the officials understand that? This is despite the fact that the food vision tillage group was set up and that the Department said it was going to increase. However, it is not increasing; it is decreasing. That is one of the reasons the representatives from the hemp sector came here to talk to us. It is a total contradiction because a gentleman who was before the committee at our previous meeting who was prepared to come into the country to set it up, if farmers were given the licence to sow it. They said that they will harvest the crop and pay for it. It was €350 or €450 an acre or something they said, which is way ahead of what farmers will get for spring barley. As we look at it today, with the forecast for spring barley, farmers will be just waiting on what the price of straw will be. That is not sustainable for anybody who is in any situation. I do not know anything about the hemp crop other than to listen to what was said last week and today but without criticising the Department, there but there seems to be a pushback from it regarding hemp. Maybe it is something that would make up for the loss of the sugar beet crop. We can still see the devastating effects year in, year out that the loss of sugar beet had on the tillage industry. Anyway, I have a few questions. Given that only approximately 11 ha of hemp are currently under cultivation, what are the main barriers preventing greater uptake by farmers?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
We carried out a consultation on this in 2021 to explore the potential for growing fibre crops such as hemp and to explore whether these crops have a viable market. One of the things that came out of the consultation was that there are potential markets, particularly in the construction industry. However, in the submissions to that consultation there was a huge lack of detail, first, in terms of the market and what was the current value of it and the current volume of it and-----
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am convinced, beyond doubt, that a farmer would make more money at the moment from hemp than from cereals.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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But the man at the last meeting said that he was prepared to set up-----
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I have an important question I want to ask the Department. Has the Department engaged with the Department of Health and the HPRA to explore whether the current licensing process could be more streamlined, while maintaining public safety? Has the Department had that meeting? It is a yes-no answer
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is grand. That answers a lot of questions for me today. What opportunity does the Department see for hemp as a crop diversification option for tillage farmers under the next CAP. Will there be? "Yes" or "No"?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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No, I am sorry. I have my questions written out so I really just want a yes-no answer. Is the answer to the CAP question "Yes" or "No"? Will the Department be in strong negotiations?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, I am not going to listen to that because the Department did not even have a meeting with the Department of Health. Now for God's sake, will Dr. O'Reilly stop and leave it at that?
Since the publication in 2022 of the consultation report, has the Department received any new industry proposals demonstrating the commercial viability of hemp production? "Yes" or "No"?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I only have one minute and 48 seconds left. Has the Department had the discussion? "Yes or "No"?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Give him a chance to answer.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but will the Cathaoirleach give me extra time? That is grand, thanks.
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
As a result of that consultation, a number of key factors were identified that need to happen to develop and scale up a hemp fibre industry here. One of those is that we need significant investment in processing. Second, we need all of the stakeholders in the industry to collaborate in developing a coherent and properly functioning supply chain to give confidence to farmers to grow it.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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We had that.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Dr. O'Reilly is saying it has not done this.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It has not done it.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It is a pity those people are not here today because they said they had done it but they have not.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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How much investment in the processing infrastructure would be required before hemp production could become commercially viable in Ireland?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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How is the Department engaging with the construction sector, which is where the consultation identified the greatest potential demand for hemp fibre?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
We get a lot of correspondence on developing a hemp industry here and on regulation. We have always been very clear in all our engagement with the hemp sector over the past number of years that we are open to receiving proposals from the hemp industry or individual members of the hemp industry, whatever the case might be, and we will consider them. To date we have not had any proposal.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The Department is a long time making up its mind, if Dr. O'Reilly does not mind me saying so.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The representatives told us last week they had given the Department all the proposals. They were in here and I thought they were magnificent. I hope people will stand up and say there were not if I am wrong. I thought they were great. I thought there was a person there who was prepared to take the raw material and guarantee a price to the farmers of this country. To be fair about it, the Department of agriculture will not guarantee farmers what they will get for spring barley this year. We saw what the co-operatives were offering them. It would not allow some of them to break even.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee and for their opening statements. I have a special welcome for Mr. Lyons and Ms Cotter from County Clare and my first questions are for them. I have heard hemp described as a wonder crop, and we heard it here last week. I know both of them have had heavy involvement in hemp production and its potential on the Loop Head peninsula at community and personal business level. Will they outline the biggest challenges they have faced on their journey to date?
Mr. Daniel Lyons:
One of the biggest challenges is that when farmers grow the crop they have nowhere to go it at the end of the day so they may as well not grow it. Unless we have a processing facility that can decorticate this, we do not have a product at the end of the day. The money has to be invested in that side. Licensing is another issue. It puts farmers off because it comes under the Misuse of Drugs Act 1977. This is not a drug at the end of the day; it is an industrial crop from which we can build houses, make insulation and make protein for animals and for humans. It has so many potentials but we have nowhere to go with it and nowhere to process it. This is what is blocking the industry at the moment, to be honest.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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What are Ms Cotter's views?
Ms Margaret Cotter:
I have similar views to Mr. Lyons. We found we could break the controlled substance taboo and it was very easy to get over it with farmers through outreach, information and education and we passed that barrier. If we were to go to the Department of enterprise and say we had a lovely business proposal it would ask for our business plan and ask to be shown a five-year plan. How can farmers have a five-year plan when they can only get a one-year license? It is impossible. It is an impediment to the farmer. Regulatory and licence matters are an impediment, whether we like it or not. If we are serious about developing this industry this impediment needs to be addressed. I would also say, just like Mr. Lyons said, there is no infrastructure. When farmers produce the plant, the minute it is cut it starts to release carbon, so we are negating some of the carbon benefits. If we store it, we are releasing carbon. What we need to do is give them access to a market and decortication infrastructure, guarantee the farmers a price, give them access to markets and let them produce it like any other crop.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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What benefit do Mr. Lyons and Ms Cotter think this crop has for coastal communities?
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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How does hemp biochar support the farming sector with regard to the water framework directive and minimising the use of fertilisers?
Ms Margaret Cotter:
Hemp has a long taproot. I will let Mr. Lyons talk about the science of it. The production of biochar is through the pyrolysis of hemp. It is burned at a very high temperature with no oxygen. There is very little carbon emission from the process. It produces what is effectively like charcoal. It is put back in the ground and it locks in carbon. It is a really effective soil amender but it is organic.
Mr. Daniel Lyons:
The biochar has tiny capillaries. Normally when slurry is added to land it starts running off into rivers and we have problems but if biochar is added to the slurry it holds onto the nutrients, locks them in and stops them leaching from the soil. It is like a supermarket for the plants. They can tap into it when they need it. It stops all of the run off into the waterways.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Lyons and Ms Cotter are positive that it is good.
Ms Margaret Cotter:
Biochar is also an effective use of a subpar crop. If people growing hemp have a bad growing year and the crop is poor with regard to fibre density or height and may not be of use in the construction industry, it can be pyrolysed and turned into biochar and used as a soil amender. This crop creates a no-lose situation.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That makes sense. What is the feedback from the farmers who have been involved in the hemp pilot project on Loop Head?
Ms Margaret Cotter:
We were a bit shocked when we had a farm open day and a farm walk. We were expecting what we would normally get for a small EIP project. We are not in a very central location. We are as far flung as we can get on the west coast. We were expecting a local turnout but we had in the region of 80 people, including farmers from all over the country who had got wind of this and wanted to see it. They wanted to see a real-life working farm where it is growing, not out of a textbook but real life and boots on the ground. It was remarkable. The farmers on Loop Head thought it was incredible. Within 100 days there is a fully developed crop. It is quite amazing. Again, there is no access to market and people were very put off by the regulatory process. We supported the farmers with it but they did find it very offputting.
Mr. Daniel Lyons:
We went through the licensing step-by-step with them, which involves phone calls over and back. When an application for a licence is made to the Department one thing is issued and when the licence comes back people have to start again. It can take a couple of weeks to get the paperwork together. Some farmers will say they are not bothered because it is too much effort to through.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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If the guidelines were reviewed do Mr. Lyons and Ms Cotter think more people would get involved?
Mr. Daniel Lyons:
The appetite is there and it would definitely be lot easier for farmers to make an application for five or six years. The licensing could be taken out completely and given to the Department of agriculture because at the end of the day it is not a narcotic. It is a building material and it has many other uses. This needs to change.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I compliment Mr. Lyons and Ms Cotter on the fabulous and fantastic work they have been doing. I hope they get more support. I have some questions for the Department and I hope I will be able to ask them in a second round of questions. Keep up the good work.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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For clarification, is the licence for one year?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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And for one crop?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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How long does it take to get a licence?
Mr. Daniel Lyons:
The first time around people would want to start before Christmas, to be honest, for all the ins and outs of it. It is a little bit quicker once people have gone through the process already because they will know what to do but it is a headache come the next year when they have to find all of the paperwork. It is quite an annoyance to be honest.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Do licences get refused?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee. As I said last week, this is probably one of the most interesting topics we have had since I have been a member of the committee.
Dr. O'Reilly was speaking about the Common Market. What work is going on with that? What exactly is that going to achieve?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
A lot of negotiations and discussions are taking place on the proposals for the next CAP. There are various different regulations. The CMO regulation is part of that, which essentially manages the agriculture and food products on the European market. As part of that, there is a proposal to harmonise the marketing of all parts of the hemp plant. At the moment, hemp is an eligible crop under what is called the basic income support for sustainability scheme, subject to certain conditions that the crop has to be grown from a variety included in the common catalogue. It has to include a THC content less than 0.3%. It has to be grown from certified seed. It can be grown in the EU. That is the CAP regulation but different member states have different national measures on the basis of grounds of public health, where there are different levels of restrictive measures.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Different European countries.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Will that take it out of the Department of Health? Is that what Dr. O'Reilly is trying to do in order that there will be no need for legislation if it is below 0.3%?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Is that part of it?
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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A licence would still be needed if they are going to harmonise all parts. Dr. O'Reilly was asked what meetings he has had with the Department of Health. He did not have any with it. What about the Department of justice or the Department of housing? At the end of the day, most of this crop will be used for construction. It is the important bit. The cost of fertiliser is rising. We have environmental targets to meet. This seems to be an absolute no-brainer. Dr. O'Reilly should be running out looking for farmers to do this in order that we are not paying a huge fine. We do not have long left. This is a no-brainer. Why have the four Departments - health, justice, housing and agriculture - not come together? If they have not, they should organise a meeting with the witnesses next week because it is important that we meet our targets, which we are not going to, but let us get as close to them as we can. These crops are done in five months and sold to harvest.
People were in here last week. One man was getting blocks from France. France is supplying 60% of the market. He reckons that he is paying double the price of what it could be produced for here. Another man who appeared before the committee is willing to invest in the mechanical and production part of it. I know Dr. O'Reilly or someone in the Department listened to the agriculture committee last week. What is stopping us? What is stopping us from going forward with this? Unless I am missing parts of the puzzle here, it is an absolute no-brainer.
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
We engage with the Department of Health on licensing and so on. We carried out a previous consultation back in 2018, prior to the one carried out in 2021, where we engaged with the regulatory authorities, the Department of justice, the Department of Health and the HPRA. One of the main conclusions of those involved in the regulation of hemp was that its regulation should be continued to be regulated by the Department of Health and should be subject to strict levels of control. That was the view of the regulatory authorities at the time. If farmers want to grow a crop of hemp to produce either fibre or seed, they can do that at the moment. They have to have a licence because essentially the plant is a schedule A drug under the Misuse of Drugs Act. They have to have a licence-----
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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It is very difficult for a farmer to work one year and then to be unsure if he or she will get the licence next year. It is difficult for farmers to start sowing crops like that. The other side of this is that this crop is grown generally from spring into the end of summer. There is less risk. There is less risk of rain and floods. The Department of agriculture will place a strong emphasis on forestry but if a farmer sows a forest for 30 years and one storm knocks it, he or she is gone, whereas with hemp - I have done the calculations - a farmer will get more money every year if the crop produces a decent crop. Hemp farmers actually make more money than they would for forestry but if winds come, a farmer is gone or cleaned out.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I welcome our guests today. I have three questions, one for Dr. O'Reilly, one for Ms Cotter and one for Mr. Lyons. Dr. O'Reilly mentioned the proposal to amend the CMO in his statement presented to us today. We got it in advance, and he read it into the record today. He mentioned the proposal to amend the CMO regulations as part of the post-2027 CAP. He said that the proposal allows for the harmonising of the EU rules, covering all parts of hemp plant and the maximum legal THC. He also mentioned that discussions are ongoing on the proposal under the Irish Presidency of the Council of the European Union. Could he fill us in on the background a little bit? Where is the trajectory of all of that going? Where is it anticipated that this might be going?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
I will speak about why there is a proposal on harmonising all parts of the hemp plant. Essentially, because of the bioeconomy, there are opportunities to use other parts of the hemp plant other than fibre. In order to try to exploit the maximum potential from the hemp plant, there is this proposal at the moment. At the moment, however, different member states have different levels and tolerances for THC and hemp products, so different member states would have different restrictions in terms of the marketing of certain parts of the hemp plant. This is what this proposal is aiming to do.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Will Dr. O'Reilly share a copy of that proposal with the committee?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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It is new to me, and I think it would be interesting to try to get some understanding in relation to it. In terms of the trajectory of that and the discussions, these are under the EU-Irish Presidency. Clearly, our Minister for agriculture could carry some influence in relation to this, if influence was required. I am simply not in the possession of all of that, and I do not think any member of the committee is either. I suggest to Dr. O'Reilly that the committee would get a memo on that and where it is envisaged to take that. Would that be okay?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is great. I appreciate that.
Ms Cotter had an interesting paper. I congratulate her on her work. Clearly, she put a lot of research and development into this area. That is important.
Teagasc was in here last week and it has a specific role in research, innovation, farm diversification and education. It has a very broad remit. What is the Ms Cotter's organisation's experience and relationship with Teagasc? Has it found it to be a positive one or a helpful one? Did she expect more and get less? She might share with the committee, in one minute, what the dynamic is in the relationship with Teagasc.
Ms Margaret Cotter:
We have had an incredibly positive relationship with Teagasc. I could not overstate that. We launched the hemp for soil project in Teagasc at its hemp event in 2022 in Ashtown. Teagasc, in our relationship with it, is very innovative, forward-thinking and very supportive. From our experience, it wants the best for the farmer and it is willing to put its money where its mouth is. It will stand by the farmer and support them. It will support the research on behalf of the farmer. We are a voluntary group. I do this in my spare time. I have a day job.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is great.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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In summary then, it is a positive experience.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Has Ms Cotter's group plans, going forward, for more collaboration with Teagasc on their work?
Ms Margaret Cotter:
Yes. We have two ongoing projects. One is to create a living lab. That is across four European countries. It is part of the Soilcrates EIP. We are a member of that project group so we will be liaising with Teagasc on the creation of a living lab in County Clare. We also have the SCEENE project on soil carbon enhancement. We will also be liaising with Teagasc on that.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank Ms Cotter very much for that. It is a really positive takeaway and I am glad to hear it.
Turning to Mr. Lyons, in the last paragraph of his submission, which was also excellent, he said the Irish company Kingspan is leading the way in hemp-based insulation. That is exciting. Kingspan is an amazing company. It is at the edge of this area in construction and is very impressive. Has there been any dialogue or engagement about contract growing of hemp for Kingspan?
Mr. Daniel Lyons:
Kingspan has said there is not the decortication. There is not a factory here at the moment. It had to go to Europe, which is leading the way. We are falling behind. We seem to be the only country in Europe that is not doing something with hemp. Kingspan is actually importing it, which adds carbon credits to material that could be produced here.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Does Mr. Lyons feel there is potential for further collaboration and engagement with the company? Is it willing? I do not know what the relationship is.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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How is that progressing in terms of Mr. Lyons's organisation?
Mr. Daniel Lyons:
It has not progressed at all because, as I said, that conversation is not even happening because there is no infrastructure here. The company is looking to Europe at the moment. We do not have an infrastructure here. We do not have a decortication plant. We cannot produce the material for the company at the moment.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Does Mr. Lyons have any knowledge of the quantity of material Kingspan is currently using?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses. Their contributions have been very enlightening in terms of our understanding of this debate and I thank them for coming before us.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses very much for their contributions, which I read with great interest.
From the Department's perspective, there was mention of current legislation in Ireland. I am always glad when I see it described as "current" because that means it can change. That is one of the things I look forward to. To go back to the part of it where the officials talked about the CMO and how this is being negotiated at the moment, my understanding of that is it is to get an even playing field across all the countries in Europe so we will have the same regulation in all the countries. Right now Ireland probably has more strict regulations than a lot of other countries in Europe. Would that be fair to say? The 0.3% THC limit was mentioned. This product really comes from the seed. We know if certain seeds are grown a product has a lower percentage than that so if the seed grows lower than that percentage are we looking at a scenario where it will not require approval or licence from the Department of Health? Is that the direction of travel?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
When the Deputy talks about Ireland being more restrictive, Irish legislation restricts the processing and sale of certain parts of the hemp plant. Upon cultivation they have to be destroyed. They are drugs under the misuse of drugs regulation. That is in line with a lot of other European member states, so we are not on our own in that regard. Regardless of-----
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Do other member states have one-year licences or multiple-year licences?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I understand they have multiple-year licences.
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
-----the licensing operates in other European countries but just in terms of the broader legislative framework, we are in line with some other European countries with respect to our restrictions on certain parts of the hemp plant. Hemp belongs to the genus - the family - of cannabis.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but the plant which is grown for industrial hemp, which is what we are talking about here, has a THC percentage lower than 0.3%. Thus, that particular plant does not have a narcotic use. Does Dr. O'Reilly accept that?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, so it does.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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But even the flower and the leaves have lower than 0.3% THC.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Is that not folly? Does Dr. O'Reilly not see the folly of that?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that but if I put a bottle of wine and a bottle of grape juice in front of Dr. O'Reilly and said both come from the grape and therefore both have to regulated the same way, he would say that is ridiculous, would he not?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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We do not have the Department of Health here. We have the Department of agriculture here and farmers have to deal with the Department of agriculture. If farmers want to grow hemp it is the Department of agriculture that deals with this.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. O'Reilly is a representative of a Department of the State that is about promoting agriculture, the farmer's prospects of being able to make a living from the land and trying to sustain communities living in rural Ireland. Does he not understand this is a product that has potential and that because there is this folly in place whereby it is treated as if it were a drug when it is not it is inhibiting the Department of agriculture's ability to do what it is its responsibility to do?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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But the Department of agriculture has not met the Department of Health to speak about this.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I have spoken to farmers who have told me they want to grow hemp and if it is found they are going to grow the hemp close to a main road the issuing of a licence is frowned upon because it is thought people passing on the road are going start pulling the leaves off the crop. Is that the reason for it? We had an expert here last week who informed us that to grow the hemp that would produce cannabis you would need to have temperature in excess of, I think, 35° C. You might get it started, maybe, some of these days but it would not grow. Where it is grown illegally it is done in attics with big lights to keep it going. It makes no sense. I go back to the point that a bottle of wine and a bottle of grape juice come from the vine but they are different products. Just because they come from the same plant they should not be licensed the same way, and they are not, so why do we licence this the same way?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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So the legislation needs to change.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Can I tease that out a little with Dr. O'Reilly? Is it primary legislation that needs to change or could we look at regulation changes?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
The misuse of drugs regulation does not fall under the remit of the Department of agriculture so I cannot comment on that.
What I can say is that if farmers want to grow hemp for fibre or seed use - those are the two things hemp can be used for at the moment - they can apply for a licence.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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They will generally get it. I accept that.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I have one final point. I know my time is running out, Chair-----
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. O'Reilly stated that a change is coming under the review by the Chief Medical Officer, CMO. I understand the Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs in Northern Ireland is looking at aligning with this as well, so it would be a bit of a farce if one side of the Border, which is outside the European Union, were to align with the rest of Europe and we were to fail to. We need to get our act together. Whether it is the Department of Health, the Department of education or whatever, we need to recognise that this is not a drug. It is an industrial crop and it needs to be treated appropriately. The Department of agriculture, which is supposed to be working for the benefit of developing the agricultural sector in Ireland, needs to step up to the plate and say to the Department of Health that this is ridiculous.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Before I go to Deputy Lawless, it may well be that we should invite the Department of Health to discuss this as well.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I thank the witnesses. This is important and the committee recognises that there is significant value for farmers in hemp production. The Department needs to show more leadership in this. The industry is crying out for support and regulation that will allow it to produce this product at scale under a multi-annual framework. It needs a processing ability to bring its product to market. The Department is saying farmers can do it if they want to, but they cannot without the infrastructure and processing ability so it is a little disingenuous to say that. The point I want to make is that the committee is fairly unanimous in its support and the Department needs to show more leadership. Whether it is to the Department of agriculture, Health, housing or justice, it needs to happen. It is not good enough for the Department of agriculture to state that this is under the remit of the Department of Health because farmers cannot engage with the Department of Health. It is important that message go back loud and clear because there are major issues, processing being a large one, while licensing being only on a yearly basis is an impediment in itself. People cannot seek infrastructure or funding if they only have a licence to produce it for a year. Where is the bottleneck? How can we move to a situation where mult-iannual licences can be granted? Is it the Department of Health that is stopping it? Will Dr. O'Reilly engage proactively with the Department of Health to take it out of its remit and get this recognised as the commercial crop it is?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
As I said at the outset, we understand what the issues are. We carried out a consultation, which identified a number of things that need to be done to kickstart and scale up a hemp fibre industry here. We have made it clear that we are open to proposals coming from the hemp industry and we will certainly consider those proposals but-----
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Can I make this point to Mr. O'Reilly? One of the issues in the consultation was the lack of viability, but last week the committee had important witnesses before it, including a businessman who is willing to invest significant money in a processing plant and farmers willing to grow it. What comes first? Is it the chicken or the egg? The Department says the industry needs to show viability and so on, but the industry says it needs a market and the ability to produce. The bottleneck needs to be unblocked. If the Department of agriculture says viability is the issue and the Department of Health says something else, we will go around in circles and we will be having the same conversation for another five or ten years.
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
The consultation was carried out in 2021, which is five years ago. There have probably been developments in the market since then. We have been clear all along that if stakeholders from the hemp industry come to us with a viable proposal, we will certainly consider it. I would like to give that message to the industry, that if there are viable proposals to kickstart a hemp industry here, we will certainly engage with it on that.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Will Dr. O'Reilly outline the process if that were to come next week? Is it the case that the Department of agriculture needs to go to the Department of Health to take it out of its remit in order for it to be recognised as a commercial agricultural crop?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Since 2022 and the consultation, has the Department of agriculture received any proposal on hemp?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Can I bring Teagasc in on that point?
Mr. James Quirke:
I will just continue on that. Last week in the discussion here, there were mentions of money and investment, but we have not seen them on our end. Until we see them, we cannot decide on it.
From the point of view of it being an agricultural crop, it is already recognised in the Department of agriculture. It gets paid under the basic income for sustainability scheme, BISS. It is also eligible for eco-schemes so it is a viable agricultural crop from that perspective.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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What role does Teagasc play and what role does it see itself playing in it? Tillage is on its knees. Teagasc has a big role in terms of research and so on. What submissions has it made to the Department on hemp?
Mr. John Spink:
I do not know that we have made any particular submissions to the Department on hemp. We had a large biomass programme, which ended a few years ago. A lot of work was done in that programme on the production of hemp and how to produce it and that information all sits there. Our view was that it is not a lack of technical information about how to grow hemp. It is the market failure, as other people have been saying. There is no processing facility.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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How do we address that? Does Teagasc have a view on whether that needs to be led by the Department or the industry or be co-funded? How do we get there?
Mr. John Spink:
We have a large research centre funded by Research Ireland called BiOrbic, whose role is to develop the circular bio-economy, and it delivers projects like this, usually in a co-funded model where there is matched funding from the industry.
Lots of people ask how we can benefit from the potential of hemp, particularly to meet our climate targets. Currently, we cannot recognise the carbon sequestered from hemp being used in hempcrete or insulation according to the inventory, so a job of work needs to be done. The inventory assumes that if an annual crop like hemp is grown, the carbon taken up by the crop is released again when it is harvested. If timber is harvested, it goes into harvested wood products and if the timber is used in the construction of a house, the assumption is that the carbon will be locked up for 35 years. We cannot currently do that with hemp. It would require a body of work to do a lifecycle analysis from the production of the crop to the production of insulation or hempcrete, which could be submitted to the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, as published work. The EPA would then have to approach the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, IPCC, for us to be allowed to take credit for the carbon from the hemp locked up in buildings under the inventory. There is a body of work to do, but as I said, there is a Research Ireland-funded centre, which is there to develop exactly this type of thing.
Mr. Daniel Lyons:
In the past few years, if you went to Enterprise Ireland, the local enterprise office or the local enterprise board and said that you were interested in hemp and looking for funding, they would have nothing to do with you. They would not even entertain you. Something else was going on in the background. If you went looking for funding from any of the local enterprise agencies, they just said no. They wanted nothing to do with hemp. That was a big issue.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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One of the big issues here is that all of the----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Lawless will get another opportunity. Deputy Fitzmaurice is next.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. I have a few questions for Dr. O'Reilly and the officials from the Department. They recognise that there is an opportunity for the use of industrial hemp in the construction sector. Which Department is the lead regarding the policy on hemp? Is it the Department of agriculture, the Department of climate action or the Department of Health?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Which is the lead Department in respect of the overall policy document of hemp?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Does Dr. O'Reilly agree that it is falling between a few stools?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There was reference earlier to a proposal that was supposed to come. It was stated that no proposal came. What budget is there for any proposals in that regard?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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The Department has no budget but is looking for proposals.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There is no budget for promoting it at the moment.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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There was a guy here last week from Australia who has hemp businesses in other European countries. He is willing to come to Ireland and create employment. I have seen the blocks that are made using it. I have looked at it for a while. That is the market. What have the Department of agriculture officials done under TAMS to facilitate the machinery for people to be able to grow hemp? What gear can people get under TAMS to facilitate the growing of hemp in Ireland?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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No, I am talking about machinery under TAMS. I know the list. The Department officials are over that sector in the context of putting forward the policy on hemp and trying to bring it or other alternatives forward. What have they done under the TAMS programme to get machinery included that would help those farmers to make a market?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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No, I am talking specifically on hemp. I know the gear they use. Tell me if that gear is in it.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I will ask a simpler question. Is there an opportunity for a person to get a grant for a shed, specifically for getting the machinery into it, through TAMS?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I remember that there was specialised equipment previously. Grant aid from the Department grant could be applied for if that type of stuff was not available in Ireland. Is the Department willing to look at that avenue when it comes to funding for the different machinery that is required? I refer to the equipment for cutting it. We made turf machines in our day. People made turf machines because they had to design them. The stuff for cutting it could be designed. People could gear combines or gear stuff their own way to solve that. It is the gear that is needed for bringing it into the shed, where you need a bit of drying, or to take off one part from the other. There is a name for it - decortisone or whatever.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Decortication.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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That gear to make it into a product that we can use. This is where the road block is. There is a road block before we even get there. We cannot even get on the plane to take off. Because of what Deputy Kenny said there about the 0.3 THC limit, it seems that someone in some Department thinks that some fellow down the road might use the industrial hemp that is to be put into blocks in order to get high. Maybe the committee could get guidance as to whether we need to bring in the Department of Justice or how we filter this. Maybe there should be a specialised licence in respect of the use of industrial hemp in the construction industry if that is what we want. We could do it whatever way we want in order to ensure that it is used specifically for that purpose. Would the Department be willing to look at that?
Some of the people who were in last week have sown the gear and have done a huge amount of research. They met the Australians and brought them here. Would the officials be willing to meet some of those people in order to discover how we can make a pathway forward, particularly in circumstances where people are interested in doing this? I was amazed by the blocks. I visited the IDA Ireland office in Athlone. Representatives of Connacht Fibre were there. I was amazed by the blocks that are made out of hemp. They are fascinating. They are handy. Lifting one is not like lifting a concrete block, but they are insulated and so on. I was amazed by what you can do. I was ignorant as to what you can do with it, to be quite frank. Are the officials willing to sit down with those people, to work out even a pilot project in part of the country for year one, to see how we can work this? We have the backing of that guy from Australia. He is willing to bring 35 jobs here. Is that what he said the last day?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy only has a minute left.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I am sorry I was not here for the presentation last week. I understand that hemp can be grown on marginal ground. It is unfortunate, but there is a lot of land in north Longford, Leitrim, parts of Cavan and in my area that is marginal. It should possibly be seen as a catch-crop or another way of supporting smaller rural farmers, where it is not viable to live off the land with a suckler herd, sheep and so on. I am amazed. Who issues the licences for the production of industrial hemp? Is it the Department?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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If I decided to grow hemp tomorrow morning, who do I go to in order to get a licence?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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When I want to harvest it, where do I go?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
Once you have the licence and you sign up to the conditions relating to it, you are free to harvest the crop. There are certain requirements in relation to cultivating the crop that you sign up to when you are awarded the licence.
The most important conditions are that the leaves and flowers of that crop, which contain THC, a controlled substance, must be destroyed and cultivated. They cannot be processed or sold on.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Where does the Department of agriculture come in if I am dealing with the Department of Health on this?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
The Department of agriculture has certain controls from the point of view of the CAP regulation. Under CAP regulation, it is an eligible crop under BISS, and there are requirements under the CAP regulation in relation to varieties grown below a certain THC content. There are certain requirements in terms of verification of those varieties. We do a certain amount of sampling every year of hemp crops and get them tested to ensure they comply with the legal requirements.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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How many licences for hemp were issued last year?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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What amount was grown in 27 licences?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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It has reduced again this year?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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If it is so viable and it is so good, why is it reducing?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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The market is there. We have been talking about the market for the past ten minutes.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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We are back to the same scenario, to the processing industry.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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No. Do not go to the market. We are after saying for the past ten minutes that there is no problem with the market so we are not going to the market again. The problem is with the harvesting industry. The monkey in the room is the harvesting industry. Is that correct?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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We have men coming in here who are doing a great job. If I have something viable tomorrow morning, people will invest in it. We know the product is there, it is grown on marginal land and the farmers will grow it. There is a problem between the Departments of Health and agriculture which we have not solved. There is a problem with harvesting. It is incumbent on us as a committee to offer solutions. How do we find a solution? We find it through harvesting.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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The point is the problem is around the harvesting of hemp. Is that not correct? Is that not the problem we have at this time?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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There is no processing, that is the point. If there is no processing, how do you process it? There is no processing plant. The reality is, have we investors in this country that want to put up a processing plant? Has anybody come to Dr. O’Reilly wanting to build a processing plant?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Without seeking anybody, have the witnesses had promotion and engagement with the Departments of Health and agriculture when they went to promote this industry?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Dr. O’Reilly is asking for an individual to bring a proposal. Is that what he is asking for?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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However, the Department has no funding in place to support proposals.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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There is an opportunity here to support rural communities by growing hemp. We certainly cannot sit on this. The Department of agriculture cannot sit on this. Whatever supports need to come in need to come in, and we need to get some sort of acknowledgement that this is viable and can be processed in this country. We are going to go around in circles here.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There is a vote called in the Dáil, so members will have to head over for that. We will suspend the meeting and resume again in ten minutes.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We are still on the first round. Does Senator Eileen Lynch wish to speak? No. Time permits a second round. We will run through the same order.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise again for having to leave the last time. I have not had the chance yet but I will go through the record and get the end of what Dr. O'Reilly was saying. When I was going out, he was saying that it is not financially viable to grow hemp. I am a suckler farmer and it would not be financially viable to be a suckler farmer either if it was not for supports, initiatives and incentives from the Department to keep the industry alive and to promote it. Why is the Department promoting one side of a sector if it will not promote another? I am frustrated at a lot of what I have heard here today.
We need initiative. Leadership was mentioned. We are depending on the Department for leadership. I gave the example of the tillage sector. Some €30 million was put into a scheme to give tillage farmers €110 per hectare, which works out at about €44 per acre. If we used that €30 million to incentivise this, it would be a better incentive for tillage farmers. Somebody should just take the bull by the horns. It has been mentioned that Kingspan is importing this stuff. Someone with the appetite should just show leadership and initiative and pick up the phone to ring somebody in Kingspan. It would be a very simple conversation. That person should ask if, given that Kingspan is importing this stuff, it would fund a processing plant if we incentivised farmers to grow the product to feed into it.
The officials have said they will talk to the Department of Health. It is the HPRA that licenses this product and the Department is in constant contact with the HPRA in respect of veterinary medicines and so on. The officials could be talking to the HPRA in the morning. If there was a will, the industrial side of this could come under the Department of agriculture, which could give four-, five- or six-year licences, with conditions.
I am a bit bemused at Teagasc's outlook here today because, seven days ago, it was very pro-hemp because it sequesters a serious amount of carbon. Today, it is questioning whether the carbon escapes on harvest. Since that was said, I have found out, through a very small bit of research, that the stalk, the lime binder, acts as a carbon sink for 50 years. That is a fact. I do not know why Mr. Spink has put a bit of a negative twist on it. I am a bit bemused by that.
There is a bit of circling of the wagons here. It is a case of ticking the box, getting out of this meeting, getting back behind our desks and not hearing hemp mentioned again until God knows when. We need leadership. We need the witnesses to take the bull by the horns. There is a serious opportunity being missed. If the Department is not going to lead on it, who is? The officials should make that phone call to Kingspan to get the wheels in motion and get the private sector involved in this. It is easy to say it is a question for the Department of health or the Department of enterprise or some other Department. I am solutions-driven. I have come from the private sector. I am very frustrated here today because all we are doing is circling the wagons in the hope that we will move on and talk about something else next week. I am sorry, Chair, but I am frustrated.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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You said that it has to be proven that it is not.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It has been proven in Europe.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It is a carbon sink for 50 years. That is proven. That is in an official document. Teagasc does not have to do its own tests if the tests have already been done somewhere else. As far as I am concerned, it is a stalling tactic.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We are putting up barriers here. Instead of grasping a potential positive, every time I make a suggestion or ask a question, a barrier is put up and I am given a reason not to do it. It is very frustrating. While it might not be a silver bullet, this is a crop and a product that will go a long way towards rescuing our tillage sector. The Department should be leading on that. We are throwing €30 million out on a scheme to provide €44 per acre. We should invest that €30 million in trying to get this up and running with Kingspan or some other company. It is like the sugar beet model we had years ago. If we get this thing up and running, I guarantee it will be the saviour of the tillage industry.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Mr. Lyons to respond very briefly because we need to get to the next speaker.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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They have been told they can burn it. If they have to burn it, the carbon is going back. That is what is happening. They have nowhere to go with it.
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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We need leadership on this. We need someone who will not say that it is someone else's problem, baby or initiative.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Last week, we heard about hemp production from the industrial and construction sector. One person said that they wanted to invest millions in this country rather than importing it because they cannot source it here, which is very unfortunate in a country which is, as we are all well aware, ideal for growing it. We are also aware of the Kingspan investment that was announced during the week. Can the Department officials explain why the terms of reference for the study into the commercial viability of hemp was restricted to fibre use only? Did this narrow focus contribute to the finding that the crop is not viable?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
It was restricted to fibre use only because that is what was set out in the previous Government's programme for Government. It was a programme for Government commitment that a consultation would be done on the potential for fibre crops and whether there was a viable market for them. That is essentially the reason it was restricted to fibre use only. In addition, apart from the seed, processing the other parts of the plant is not allowed.
If I may come back to Senator Daly's point on doing another study on market viability, we have always said that we will consider proposals but we have not seen any. It would be very useful. We hear different figures on market returns and so on. It would be useful to have a proposal that would substantiate all these figures and that would go into detail on the current value of the sector, the current volume and so on.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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My time is being used up now as well. Does Dr. O'Reilly think it was a mistake for the consultation to consider fibre use only?
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Does Dr. O'Reilly think it was a mistake, however?
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Is the Department undertaking a review of hemp's viability on a whole-plant, multimarket basis, to include construction-grade hemp and bio-composite manufacturing, both of which are established markets in other member states? Do we have a problem here that is preventing us from going down that road?
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Does Dr. O'Reilly want me to read it out again for him? Is the Department undertaking a review of hemp's viability on a whole-plant, multimarket basis, to include construction-grade hemp and bio-composite manufacturing, both of which are established markets in other member states? What is the Department's view? Is the Department going to undertake a review?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
We have done the consultation on hemp as a fibre crop. The outcome of that was fairly clear. A number of things have to happen before we can develop a fibre industry here. Two of the main things are that we need investment in processing and that we need collaboration among all of the stakeholders, including growers, processors and manufacturers. We all need to work together to develop a properly functioning supply chain to give confidence to investors and to the farmers who will actually grow the crop.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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We need to marry the views we heard today and those we heard last week as regards hemp. This is from Teagasc. All of us in agriculture look up to Teagasc. We ask it for the best advice. It does a lot of research. A lot of public money goes into it. The report from Barry Caslin from last year was very clear that Teagasc held two conferences on this matter. It said that Teagasc was absolutely in favour of this crop and that it saw it as something that could save the whole industry, into which fewer and fewer people are going. It is awful to see what is happening at the moment. We have a situation where it is not paying people to do something. They are barely breaking even and depend on the price of straw. The last thing any person who has any interest in producing food wants to see is solar panels being installed on good land but that is what we are now seeing around the countryside. People out there are saying that this would at least give them a steady income. We are here as elected public representatives representing the section of the community we are talking about here today. We have to look at the best advice we have got from Teagasc. The conclusion here was that industrial hemp for fibre and hurd should be treated as an agricultural and materials policy matter. These are the finest of people. Cian O'Reilly prepared this. These are people who have done a huge amount of research into this matter.
That brings us back here today. I have something to say to Margaret Cotter. I have been involved in the all-Ireland national competition, the IPB Pride of Place Awards, before.
The project was nominated for what they did. To get nominated for that, anybody who ever served on a local authority would be absolutely delighted. Here we are, and I am asking everyone present, including my colleagues on the committee here today, if we see any light at the end of the tunnel for this in the next five years. Whoever will be sitting on this committee in the next five or ten years will say that the tillage allocation in this country has decreased. I would be nervous to say what the number of hectares would be but at the moment they are going into solar panels and so on. For me personally, there is nothing as bad as seeing solar panels on good ground. This is why we are here today and we are asking the Department. My argument is that one can push the buck over to the Department of Health but the bottom line is that Department of agriculture issues the licence. In this matter, the Department of agriculture is responsible for the progress of whatever the alternative is - let us say spring barley or, as I call it, a replacement for beet. The crop ticks all the boxes for that and it seems to be a no-brainer not to do it. I do not see any will whatsoever in the Department of agriculture to stand up and say, "We acknowledge that this could be a very good rotational crop in the tillage industry." It is not going to happen. What alternatives are there then? To be fair to the people who came in here, they were guaranteed a price. Everybody is guaranteed a price for something. Take the milk industry, for example. We are guaranteed a price and we are told at the beginning of the year that it will not drop below such a price, so we can we can make alternatives for it. Just like the Cathaoirleach-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy. I call Deputy Newsome Drennan.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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-----I would love to come out of this meeting and say, "Yes, there is light at the end of the tunnel", and for something to happen.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Newsome Drennan has the floor.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The Chair did give a lot of the others over two minutes. I have it written down here because I want to present it to the Chair at the end of the year. That is all I want to say.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy, we are on round two-----
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I would ask the Department of agriculture to please do something. That is all I ask.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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-----and the Deputy is taking time from the other members. Deputy Newsome Drennan, please.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I went through the parts on the Department of Health and the Department of justice. The other one that should be consulted in this is the Department of the environment. What I can see is that, basically, nobody is talking to anybody. If France has 60% of the market, I presume it has its own research done. The French are our counterparts in Europe. We spend a lot of money on research when we could and should be using and feeding into each other's research. Has the Department or Teagasc looked into any of the reports that were done in France? If it has 60% of the market, it is doing something right.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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So the Department has not looked into it. That is okay. I do not want to waste my time. If the Department has not looked into it, that is fine. I think the Department should look into it. As a farmer, we want to produce food or crops. We like to go out and see when the crop is starting, when it is finalised and when we harvest it, or if it is cattle when we bring them to the factory. That is what we farm for. We do not farm to see solar farms or wind farms sitting on our land. That is not what we want. There is a lot of research done already and we can see that it is good for our environment. We have to look into it. All Departments should be looking into this. I am pleading with the witnesses to talk to the Departments of justice and housing, and the environment section. The environment section should be jumping in on this. If there was a will, this could be done.
I want to give the rest of my time to Ms Cotter or Mr. Lyons. Does Ms Cotter want to talk about the project? Mr. Lyons studied industrial hemp. They have one and a half minutes between them and I will give them the floor. I thank them for coming in.
Mr. Daniel Lyons:
To be honest, in my opinion it is an absolutely fabulous crop and it is a no brainer. We have the problem where Ireland will be fined in the coming years over the greenhouse emissions. We are talking about ten to 15 tonnes of carbon pulled out of the atmosphere in one single growing season. If we can get a decortication factory up and running, we can lock in that carbon. We can build houses and make insulation. The seeds can be used for protein for animals and humans. There is no end to the potential for this product, to be honest. To me it is absolutely a no-brainer. Farmers are ringing me weekly looking to grow 50 or 100 acres. The drive is there for farmers to do it but there is nowhere to go with the product at the end of the day. Basically, they may as well let it rot in the field, the carbon can go back up to atmosphere and we are just wasting our time at the end of the day. It is an absolutely fabulous crop with massive potential. We are missing a trick here, to be honest.
Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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It is a bit like going around in a circle. We had people here last week who were willing to put the investment in, then we have Departments that are failing this industry, and then we have our witnesses who have done research and projects. Without one piece being fixed in the puzzle we are going to keep going around in circles and, like Deputy Aird said, whoever is here in ten years' time will still be going around and saying "Lads, what have you done?"
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Last week and this week have been very useful from the point of view of getting to the core of what the issues are here. There are a number of issues and a market is one of them. Processing is a big issue to try to get that. We do have people in the industry, some of whom were here last week and others who are in the insulation business who are saying they have a market and a means of moving that forward and are prepared to make the investment. They are, however, hesitant to make the investment as long as they see the farmer having to overcome obstacles when it comes to regulation. We need to get both to work together. In fairness to the people from the Department of agriculture, or from any State agency, sometimes they will come into committee and we can be tough on them. That is fine and that is what we are here to do, and the witnesses understand that and we understand their position, but what we want to try to do here is get a solution. As Ms Cotter mentioned, what really needs to happen is multi-stakeholder engagement and getting everyone around the table and working this out. At the same time, we have a big barrier here and the big barrier is the Department of Health saying hemp is a narcotic. What we are talking about growing here is as far from a narcotic as Sitka spruce is. That is the reality, yet Sitka spruce is used, promoted and grown. It gets grants and tax-free status and all the other stuff because it has carbon sequestration benefits. This product has the very same benefits but it is pushed in the other direction. We need to change that. Ultimately, what we need is that stakeholder engagement. That is the challenge for the Department here more than anyone else because the Department is in the driving seat and needs to lead that engagement.
I mentioned Sitka spruce. Forestry is an example. The forestry industry was developed in Ireland by the Department. It was Coillte that developed the model of forestry we have now. Coillte went out around the country, including up beside me up on the mountains above Ballinamore and Drumshanbo, and planted huge areas of what was actually bog, which is very bad to plant. It planted that model of trees, whereby they were planted close together in rows and thinned seven or ten years later. Coillte came up with the model, found how it grew fast, and found the right type of trees that grew very quickly. Coillte perfected the model and then the private sector took it over. In other words, it was the State that had the deep pockets to take the risk.
We are not asking for the State to have the deep pockets to take the risk here. We are asking the State to be the enabler to ensure that this industry can get off the ground. A big part of being the enabler is removing this issue we have of health as a barrier. In fairness to the Department of agriculture, I know it has a job to do but part of that job needs to be working with the industry to try to remove that barrier and to work out a system whereby we can get industrial hemp. I do not understand, in some ways, why the actual growing of the crop needs to be licensed. I would have thought the only part of it that needs to be licensed is the seed. The seed needs to be licensed. If we license the seed, then only seeds that produce THC of below 0.3% can be sold.
As that is the only seed that can be bought, under licence, then farmers can experiment and plant two acres without the need for a licence because the seed is licensed. That would be my logical solution. It would mean that farmers can produce small amounts, see how it works and then decide whether to plant more or not to continue. One of the problems that arises when hemp production is mentioned to farmers is that they will say they are not going to risk planting 20 acres of their land with hemp when the outcome is unknown, but they would risk two or three acres. Then, however, the farmers discover that they have to go with a big licensing sector. What we need is the Department to become the enabler to get everyone around the table. If it took that on, it would be a huge benefit to emerge from this meeting.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I agree with the sentiments expressed by Deputy Kenny and that the Department needs to show leadership regarding the whole industry. Is it possible that hemp seed can be licensed?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
Hemp seed is not a controlled substance because it does not contain any THC. It becomes controlled when planted because that is when the hemp plant is cultivated. A licence is required for the cultivation of hemp. Hemp seed can be freely marketed and used but a licence is required for planting.
Mr. Daniel Lyons:
The seed is under licence already. It is grown in Europe. It is all tested. It is already below 0.3% THC. When someone buys seed it all has to go through certification. The seed that is bought from a licensed place is already certified. It is below the limits so, yes, that is quite possible.
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
It is not a case of licensing seed. I look after seed certification in the work that I do. Any seed that is used for the production of hemp must first be included on what is called the common catalogue of varieties of agricultural plant species, be below 0.3% THC and meet other requirements in terms of distinct thickness, performance and suitability. There are a lot of regulations that govern seed production. Hemp seed has to be certified in accordance with a particular regulation, meet certain purity requirements, etc. That is all done officially.
The harvested seed can be freely marketed. It is when the seed is planted that a licence is required because the plant is being cultivated. In order to cultivate the plant, the seed must meet certain requirements, which includes the 0.3% limit.
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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If someone buys the seed under certification, why do they need to change it when they plant it?
Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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If a seed is under a certain strength when it is sown, why would it get stronger after it is sown?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
When a seed is sown that hemp plant or certain parts of it, because it belongs to the cannabis family, will inevitably contain the narcotic or psychoactive substance called THC. That is why the plant is controlled. There are controls on the seed but it is actually when the seed is planted that regulation comes in.
Mr. Daniel Lyons:
The seed is already certified seed. The seed that people buy has already been bred. It does not go past 0.3%. When someone buys that seed, they will have gone to a certified body to buy the seed and when the seed is planted that should be enough. I know where the Senator is coming from. Basically, if someone buys that seed that should be enough. It is already certified, it does not exceed 0.3% THC and the buyer is certified to grow it then.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I am glad to get the opportunity to contribute. I welcome the witnesses.
We have had interesting debates, including a number of months ago when we had tillage farmers in here. They are crying out and are at the end of their tether. The whole lot of them are nearly gone, which is a crying shame. Now we see, as Deputy Aird said, solar panels taking over the countryside when that is not what farming is about at all. We must protect the people in the sector. I can see a reluctance among the witnesses from the Department to promote the growing of hemp. Surely the Department should be able to give a green light to farmers or tillage men and should be there to be consulted and to provide help. Instead, it has pushed it back on them to come forward with a plan. Hemp is not a traditional crop and we know little about it. Is the fact that hemp can be used for drugs at a later stage the reason the Department is reluctant to promote hemp production?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
There is no reluctance on our part. We have always made it clear that if there are viable proposals, we will actively consider them. In the consultation we carried out, we found there was a distinct lack of information on the viability of growing hemp for industrial use, particularly at processing level. We do not have processing facilities here. If we do not have processing facilities and information on what the market can return to farmers, in terms of a price that would encourage farmers to grow the crop, it is difficult for farmers to have confidence in growing it.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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That is exactly what I am saying. The Department has not given hemp production the green light and is not giving any information or incentives. Some of the witnesses said that representatives of the Department of Health should be here. The Department of Health put the children's hospital in the wrong place and now it cannot open it. That is bad enough. Would I ask that Department's officials to come in to talk about hemp when it is agriculture we are talking about? If the Department of agriculture has some problem with the fact that hemp can be used for drugs afterwards, and I know that is a reality, the witnesses should be upfront and say that. I can see there is something stopping them. They have told us that if some hemp producers or whoever approach the Department with a proposal, the officials will deal with them. We are at nothing, to be honest, and we have been here all day. At the same time, I can see that next year a whole lot of tillage farmers will be gone. That is a shame because they have tractors and machinery, the know-how and land. There should be more of an outcome given what is wrong. As with anything else that the Department of agriculture wants farmers to produce, it is waiting for us to come forward. There is no tradition or background in growing hemp. We are calling on the Department to help us. That is what this committee is about - helping farmers. The officials have to be honest with us and tell us what is on their minds because they have not done so all day.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I need to bring this session to a conclusion. I thank the witnesses for their contributions. We heard a lot of insights. There is definitely a view among members that we need to continue this conversation. There may be aspects that we want to tease out. Before we conclude, I will give each witness one minute to make a quick point or two or add to the conversation.
Ms Margaret Cotter:
I believe we have identified today that the issue is the gap between the farmer and the market. It is a matter of processing. It is a little unrealistic to say that the industry needs to step in. If I were about to invest heavily in a processing facility but the raw material was not available, it would be a very unwise investment. We need to time this so the incentivisation of farmers coincides with investment from the private sector, perhaps in a processing plant, and so there will be access to the raw material. The production of the raw material takes 90 days. This is not complicated. It does not take 20 years. We need to time the process. We need to incentivise farmers, and we also need industry to say that when the farmers are incentivised and they, the processors, get the raw material, they will bring in the processing plant. If the two activities are allowed to coincide, we will no longer have to have this conversation.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Are there any other takers?
Dr. Barry O'Reilly:
The Department of agriculture is responsible for crop policy. We have an important role to play in developing the crop sector here. We take that seriously and put a huge amount of work into that area.
On hemp, as I said at the outset, we are very open to engagement. What is lacking at the moment is a robust proposal from industry, particularly with a financial analysis of how to kick-start the hemp sector here and on its viability. Those in industry also have a responsibility to put the proposal together. We are happy to engage and to consider any proposals made.
Mr. John Spink:
I obviously gave Senator Daly the impression that I was not supportive of this. I am just saying that, as an organisation, we are about looking for opportunities to support farmers and the agriculture sector. All I was trying to do was point out that there is an issue in terms of the country being able to benefit from hemp production and its use in construction. We can sort that out. There is a solution. However, as things stand, there is-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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There is a lot about carbon credits-----
Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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It should not be holding the sector back.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Tá go maith. On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for their contributions and insight. As there is no further discussion today, the meeting stands adjourned.