Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 30 June 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage
Social Housing Estate Regeneration: Discussion
2:00 am
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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You are all very welcome. I will go through some formalities before we kick off. We do not have any apologies. We have substitutions. Deputy Quinlivan is in place of Deputy Ó Broin and Senator Dee Ryan is in place of Senator Casey.
The topic today is social housing estate regeneration. Regenerating social housing estates involves addressing long-standing issues of poor design, outdated infrastructure and concentrated disadvantage. Efforts are often complicated by limited funding, planning constraints and the need to balance physical renewal and sustained social and community supports. Successful regeneration requires co-ordinated long-term approaches that place residents at the centre of change. Today, I am pleased we have the opportunity to again consider this and other related matters with representatives from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Cork City Council and Limerick City and County Council.
From the Department, we have Mr. David Dalton, principal officer, social housing delivery division, Ms Leona Basquill, assistant principal, and Mr. Laurence Keating, assistant principal. From Cork City Council, we have Ms Valerie O'Sullivan, chief executive, Mr. Brian Geaney, assistant chief executive, and Ms Eleanor Lehane, senior executive engineer, housing directorate. From Limerick City and County Council, we have Dr. Pat Daly, director general, Mr. Brian McCarthy, director of regeneration, community, sport and rural development directorate, Ms Fiona McCormack, senior executive officer, regeneration, community, sport and rural development directorate, and Mr. Declan White, senior engineer, regeneration, community, sport and rural development directorate.
Before we start, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with such a direction.
The opening statements have been circulated to members. They will be published on the committee website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I thank our witnesses for submitting their opening statements in advance. I will give each of them an opportunity read their introductory statements. We will allocate three minutes per group. We will start with the Department.
Mr. David Dalton:
I thank the committee members. I am here at the invitation of the committee as policy lead for local authority social housing estate regeneration in the Department of housing. I am joined by departmental colleagues Mr. Laurence Keating and Ms Leona Basquill, the operational leads for social housing regeneration in Cork and Limerick, respectively.
Our priority is to work with local authorities to ensure their housing stock is safe, secure and provides an appropriate standard of accommodation for residents. Ultimately, local authorities are responsible for the upkeep of their social homes. Officials and elected members must make adequate funding available for this purpose as part of their annual budgetary process. Notwithstanding that, the Department will provide a significant contribution to local authorities for stock improvement and estate regeneration works this year, some €260 million, a 30% increase on the €196 million available in 2025. This funding complements and does not replace local authorities' own investment in the upkeep of their properties.
The national social housing regeneration programme supports the renewal of social housing estates, seeking primarily to improve housing quality and sustainability in areas experiencing significant and persistent disadvantage. Programmes of works are generally agreed and funded by the Department and other State bodies as part of a broad master plan developed by local authorities covering a mix of physical, economic and social interventions. These programmes tend to be complex and delivered over the long term on a phased multi-annual basis. Delivery timelines reflect the scale of projects, robust planning and procurement requirements and, critically, the need to minimise disruption for existing residents. Some €50 million will be provided this year for large-scale regeneration programmes in Cork city, Dublin city, Limerick city and Sligo as well as smaller initiatives elsewhere. Generally, the funding will support the ongoing remediation and restructuring of existing social housing estates, including targeted demolitions and refurbishment and retrofit of homes. It will also support public realm and community infrastructure projects where appropriate, defined social regeneration initiatives and local authority staffing. Importantly, new and replacement social homes delivered as part of these programmes will be funded through the Department’s mainstream social housing budgets.
The Cork north-west quarter regeneration master plan and implementation report focuses on the comprehensive regeneration of homes in Knocknaheeny. The Department has committed close to €100 million to date for the implementation of the master plan, supporting the delivery by Cork City Council of 264 new and replacement social homes, which are either completed or on site. A further 138 homes have provisional Department approval and will be delivered over the remainder of the programme.
The Limerick regeneration implementation framework plan is a roadmap for the regeneration of Ballinacurra Weston, Moyross, Southill and St. Mary’s Park. It is underpinned by a commitment of €293 million for defined physical, social and economic interventions. To date, Limerick City and County Council has delivered almost 500 new or replacement social homes via the plan and 256 are progressing through the appraisal and approval process. Around 1,700 homes have been refurbished, with more on site or progressing through approval stages.
The social, economic and environment plan and the economic and social investment fund are critical elements of the Cork and Limerick regeneration programmes. They complement the physical works and help leverage additional funding for the benefit of the regeneration areas. To date, the Department of housing has invested almost €52 million in these programmes. Notably, the Department will also provide €40 million and €140 million to local authorities via the planned maintenance and voids programme and the energy efficiency retrofit programme, respectively, as a contribution towards the maintenance of local authority-owned social homes. Both councils are active beneficiaries of these programmes. Their commitment and strong performance in this regard is reflected in their respective allocations and the funding drawn down under these programmes in recent years.
Our objective is to ensure local authority tenants have access to homes of an appropriate standard and that best suit their needs. To this end, we continue to support Cork City Council and Limerick City and County Council to implement their current regeneration programmes. In the meantime, and in line with commitments in the new housing plan, Delivering Homes, Building Communities, my team is developing a revised social housing estate remediation and regeneration programme. Crucially, this programme will be available to all local authorities and will be rolled out from early 2027. Once again, I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members. I look forward to the discussion.
Ms Valerie O'Sullivan:
I thank members for the invitation to attend the joint committee to discuss social housing estate regeneration. We very much welcome the opportunity.
Cork is a growing and ambitious city. Population growth, inward migration, economic expansion and urban renewal combine to place significant pressure on the housing system in Cork city. In that context, Cork City Council has responded with urgency and innovation. We have taken a proactive approach to housing delivery, working directly and in partnership with the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage, the Land Development Agency, LDA, and approved housing bodies.
The scale of public housing delivery in Cork city is significant. More than 3,000 social and affordable homes are currently under construction across the city, representing investment of more than €1 billion. Between 2022 and 2025, we delivered just under 3,000 homes through direct delivery and partnership models. The city council is also on course to exceed the Department’s affordable housing target of more than 378 homes by the end of 2026, having been one of the first out of the blocks nationally in affordable housing delivery. We have been pioneers and very progressive in how we structure competitive dialogue, partnership delivery and mixed-tenure schemes. Those systems are now being looked upon by other local authorities as practical models for delivery in what is a difficult and complex national housing scenario.
Housing estate regeneration is a significant and important part of our overall housing delivery approach. It is unique; it is not simply about replacing old housing with new housing. It is about protecting communities, sustaining vulnerable neighbourhoods, improving the public realm, addressing inequality and creating places where people can live with dignity, security and opportunity. We in Cork City Council believe that early intervention in these areas protects social and economic capital and helps retain the character, identity and personality that makes Cork such a great city.
The city north-west quarter regeneration programme, centred on the Knocknaheeny area, is one of the largest housing-led regeneration programmes in the State, involving the phased demolition of 434 homes and the delivery of 656 new homes supported by a wider social, economic and environmental plan. To date, 192 new homes have been delivered, 165 are on site and further phases are advancing through planning and pre-planning. Investment already committed by the Department to newly built homes in the area is almost €165 million. At Noonan Road, St. Finbarr’s Road, Fort Street and Dean Street, the council is progressing a major regeneration of older social housing flats within walking distance of the city centre. This programme provides for phased demolition, refurbishment where appropriate and the delivery of more than 200 mixed-tenure homes. More than 80% of the existing residents have already been relocated to allow the first phase to proceed. Other regeneration work is also moving forward. At Upper Cattle Market Street and Boyce’s Street, demolitions have been completed, 14 homes have been delivered and a further 37 are in procurement. At Tarry Path in Mayfield, the council is at feasibility stage, examining how best to redevelop or improve the site as part of the wider area renewal. Across older estates, we are also using refurbishment-led regeneration where the existing building fabric is sound, addressing damp, mould, poor insulation, ageing services and accessibility limitations. We can provide details of these schemes if required.
We must also be clear and emphasise to the committee that regeneration is among the most complex forms of housing delivery. They are brownfield projects in live communities. They require careful resident relocation, consultation, continuity of community life, phased construction, utility diversions, public realm works and the management of contractors in constrained and difficult sites. Such projects are affected by construction cost inflation, skills shortages, procurement pressures, infrastructure capacity, budget management and programme risk. Timely infrastructure delivery is therefore a critical concern to us in Cork City Council. Higher-density regeneration depends on co-ordinated upgrades from utility providers including water, electricity, telecoms and other services. Delays in diversions, connections or enabling works can affect contractors, budgets and delivery timelines. They can also have direct consequences for residents living through this whole process.
For that reason, regeneration requires a multidisciplinary, long-term and partnership-based approach. It is not just a construction programme, but a social, economic and environmental intervention. Cork City Council is very proud of the progress we have made to date. We believe that our approach demonstrates how local authorities can be progressive, innovative and delivery focused while still placing communities at the centre of the change required. Despite these challenges, working in this area can be, and is, very fulfilling.
Cork City Council welcomes the opportunity to continue working in partnership with the Government, the committee, the Department, delivery stakeholders and local communities to advance meaningful estate regeneration.
Building on its strong track record of delivering successful regeneration schemes over many years in places such as the Glen, Togher and Mayfield, the council is enthusiastic about beginning a new phase of regeneration in the Mayfield and Togher areas, together with other areas across the city that require and would benefit from an intervention of this nature. We see significant potential to deliver more quality homes, strengthen the community and bring life-changing benefits to residents. The city council looks forward to bringing its experience, commitment and innovative approach to this work.
I thank the Chair and members. We look forward to engaging.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I now invite Dr. Daly from Limerick City and County Council.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I was going to say that. I spoke to the mayor. We might have an opportunity to discuss later in the year. We might even pay a visit to Limerick to look at the regeneration plan. As a member of Longford County Council, I was there in 2015 when our regeneration was set up. We went to see what we felt was best practice at the time. No disrespect to Cork.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Cathaoirleach used the phrase "at the time".
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Yes. The Deputy will have to convince me otherwise. Does Dr. Daly want to read the opening statement on behalf of the mayor?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Dr. Daly has three minutes. He might want to summarise it.
Dr. Pat Daly:
I will do a summary of it. I thank the Cathaoirleach and members for the opportunity to address them on the operational progress of the Limerick regeneration programme.
At the outset, I acknowledge the commitment of the Government and the long-standing support of the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. Limerick regeneration is one of the most significant urban regeneration programmes undertaken by the State. It is a partnership between the Government, the local authority, An Garda Síochána, State agencies, community organisations and, most importantly, the people who live in the communities being regenerated. The progress made to date would not have been possible without sustained Government investment, collaboration with the Department and confidence in local delivery.
Since 2014, regeneration in Limerick has delivered real and measurable change. Significant progress has been achieved under the physical pillar, with 495 new and replacement homes delivered and more than 1,700 homes refurbished, retrofitted or upgraded. Investment in community facilities, public spaces, transport connections, education and sports infrastructure has helped to transform neighbourhoods and improved quality of life.
Under the economic pillar, unemployment has reduced significantly across all four regeneration communities. Employment initiatives, community enterprise projects and targeted supports have helped residents to access education, training and employment opportunities, while strengthening local capacity and participation.
The social pillar continues to play a critical role in supporting children, families and communities. More than 13,000 interventions are delivered annually through the education, youth, family support and health initiatives. These programmes contribute to improved educational outcomes, enhanced well-being and stronger, safer communities. However, regeneration remains a work in progress. While progress is clear, deprivation, unemployment and community safety challenges persist in parts of our city. For many residents, opportunity is still uneven and the benefits of growth have not been fully realised. The key lesson is that regeneration must go beyond physical development. Sustainable progress depends equally on economic opportunity and sustained social investment, supporting families, improving health outcomes, strengthening education and enhancing community safety. While substantial progress has been made, a continued investment commitment will be required to consolidate the gains achieved, address remaining challenges and ensure all regeneration communities can fully benefit from the growth in opportunities emerging across Limerick and the wider region.
Estate regeneration involves much more than delivering new homes or physical infrastructure. It is about creating sustainable, inclusive communities where people can access quality housing, educational opportunities, employment supports, health services, recreational amenities and community facilities, all within their neighbourhoods. The success of regeneration is measured, not only by improvements to the physical environment, but by the social and economic outcomes achieved for residents. By combining housing investment with community development, education, employment activation, health and well-being programmes, youth services and public realm improvements, we are supporting residents to realise their full potential while fostering safer, stronger and more resilient estates. It is this continued and long-term commitment across all sectors that brings together the various strands of investment and activity into a coherent estate regeneration programme that can deliver lasting change for current and future generations.
Regeneration is not a short-term initiative. It is a long-term, generational commitment. Limerick City and County Council looks forward to continuing this partnership into the next phase of regeneration.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I now invite members to contribute and ask questions. We will have eight minutes per member for questions and answers. If anyone is online, I ask them to use the raise hand feature on MS Teams. We will start with the Fianna Fáil slot and Senator Dee Ryan.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the committee for allowing me to substitute for my colleague Senator Casey. I am a proud Limerick woman so am delighted to have the opportunity to discuss the successes and challenges in regeneration in Limerick with our colleagues in local government. I thank them for their time today and for all the work they have been doing on an ongoing basis to help to improve life for people in Limerick.
I have two strands of questions. The first is on the housing aspect and the overall community development in the areas set out for regeneration. Looking at the different regeneration areas, has regeneration been more successful to date in some areas or in a particular area than it has been in others? Can the witnesses identify factors that might have made the difference? I am conscious that while we spend a lot of money on the bricks and mortar, more than that goes into building a sustainable community. Those questions are for Dr. Daly or whoever from the Limerick council team would like to take them.
Dr. Pat Daly:
I thank the Senator. I appreciate the question. My colleagues may wish to jump in.
What is clear to us after many years working in regeneration is that one size does not fit all. How progress can be delivered is different in each regeneration area and it is also different in different parts of that area. We spend a lot of time redeveloping access. The community might have felt separated from Limerick and a little outside the normal work and development that happens in Limerick and the local authority. We have worked at breaking the silo down. These culs-de-sac were built in the 1960s and 1970s so we have spent a lot of time and effort on opening up the areas and generating, not only new transport orientated development, but community supports and facilities. That has worked quite well. Moyross is a key example of that. The lessons from that area are clear, that when there is strong local community, which is ambitious for its area and a strong education and social infrastructure, it works quite well. We were also able to get good support from the Government on the opening of the Coonagh-Knockalisheen road.
That is happening in other areas, but the intensity at times probably has to change. People move from areas. They move on or move through the system. We find that, if there is a good coalition of the community, the stakeholder and the council - that normally happens at area committee meetings with the regeneration estates - it works well. One size does not fit all, but the lessons learned about the approach work in every area.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Daly's colleagues are embedded in the community, working in offices within the community and working closely with community leaders. How important is that interaction? Will Dr. Daly talk about the nurturing of those community leaders? In my work going door to door and dealing with people all the time, I have discovered that there is a demand from those on the social housing list to move back into Moyross. People want to go back to Moyross in particular and that is distinctly different from some of the other areas, where no lack of effort has been made by the council. I am trying to identify the factors that have made some areas flourish a little earlier than others.
Ms Fiona McCormack:
The Senator is correct that all the areas we work in are at different stages of progress. What we have learned in recent years is that early intervention is key. As Dr. Daly mentioned, the interventions in schools and working closely with the youth clubs in the various areas have also been key. On building capacity in the community, there are a lot of articulate young men and women coming through, who want to be the ambassadors for their communities. As a result, the approach we have taken in recent years has been to put the community at the forefront of the solutions to the issues in areas.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Is State funding on social and economic interventions of equal importance as the money spent on bricks and mortar?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Does Dr. Daly agree a change is coming in the economic and social intervention fund, ESIF?
Dr. Pat Daly:
Yes, the fund is being scaled down. We have been notified of that for a number of years. The Government wants us to mainstream it, which is sensible, in some of the key programmes so that we can isolate where certain successes have happened. However, our view is that regeneration, development and support take a lot longer and more money than previously, so we are working with Government partners and agencies to keep the fund up out to 2030 and to see how we can mainstream the main programme elements of it into health support, health equity and economic opportunity. Any loss of money has a greater effect on these areas than on others. What we are doing is working with partners to make sure that we offset that.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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All of the Oireachtas Members from across Limerick city have written to the Minister, Deputy Browne, on that matter. We would be supportive of an extension of the fund, given its vital importance. It is almost intangible in terms of seeing it, but we are really feeling the benefits. I am interested in hearing, in the second round of questions, the view held by Mr. Dalton on that funding and how we can potentially manage it. As I have heard Dr. Daly say, some of the different community groups have now been properly stood up and have the capacity to go forward for different funding paths just like all community groups around the country do, but other groups will require more support. Therefore, it is important that we not pull the rug out from under these communities, particularly as some may for the first time in generations be developing this capacity to interact with the systems of local government and submit applications, which might be straightforward for others but more challenging for people who live in areas that have suffered from concentrated disadvantage for many decades.
How many applicants are on the social housing waiting list in Limerick?
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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The figure has decreased.
Dr. Pat Daly:
Yes, a little bit. The pace of housing development is growing. The figure is not where we want it to be but it is certainly coming down.
On the ESIF, I compliment Mr. Dalton and his colleagues in the Department. They have extended it out and been working with us to chaperone supports and funds. We thank them for that. We all understand the impact of trying to compensate for moneys and their nature that may be changing.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank all of the witnesses for being here today. My questions will focus on the Department and Cork City Council.
In September 2000, I went to the first meeting on the Knocknaheeny regeneration scheme. That was almost 26 years ago. It took 11 years to develop a master plan, it was three years before a house was delivered and we have had 12 Ministers for housing. I put the blame for the delay in the regeneration of Knocknaheeny squarely and fairly at the footsteps of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. I blame them for failing our communities for 26 years. I want to put it on the record that it did not happen in Ballymun and Moyross.
I will outline where I am coming from. None of the non-housing elements of the regeneration plan - a regional park; a boxing centre of excellence; a skate park on Harbour View Road; a children’s play space on residents’ doorsteps; a play area at Ardmore Avenue; a play area at Hollyhill; an all weather-pitch on Kilmore Road; an area for recreational use and public art at the reservoir site; and a multi-purpose sports facility west of the water tower - were delivered. In actual, fact Knocknaheeny does not even have a playground because the only one it had was destroyed by vandals on a number of occasions, and as the Garda cannot protect it, Cork City Council gave up because it did not have the funding to keep repairing the playground. It is a disgrace that a community with one of the highest concentrations of children in Cork has no play space or playground because it cannot get resourced and protected.
Will the representatives of the Department and Cork City Council outline when all of the non-housing aspects will be delivered? Is there a start time and finish time for the work?
Mr. Brian Geaney:
In reply to the Deputy's comments about the number of years, and for the benefit of other members, the regeneration of Knocknaheeny was a refurbishment project in the early days. Blocks A, B, C and D, which consisted of a few hundred homes, were refurbished at that stage. Along with the Department and all elected members of Cork City Council, a master plan was prepared in 2011. The main change to the master plan was to get away from refurbishment and start the programme of demolition and new build. To be fair, all elected members from all sides agreed that that was the best route forward. A substantial regeneration programme has commenced since. Committee members will be aware of the figures that have been provided to them.
The Deputy is right in what he said about a playground. I worked as part of Limerick regeneration, and at the time, people spoke about building new houses. However, as old houses are burned out, you do not build new houses right next to them. You wait until there is a stabilisation in the community. To be fair to the council, there was a perfectly good playground provided at Kilmore Road and Kilmore Park but it was burned down by elements of the local community. Unless that-----
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The children of Knocknaheeny have no playground and nowhere to go. Is Cork City Council saying that it gives up and there will be no playground? I cannot accept that.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am conscious of my time. Seed funding has led to positive things. I am not attacking the city council or the regeneration team, which I met as recently as last Tuesday. We are trying to work with them but we need the money and resources. We cannot have Cork City Council travelling up and down to Dublin waiting to get the Department to pass things when the council should just be allowed to drive on.
The Department has outlined the details of 402 houses in Knocknaheeny but there are supposed to be an extra 254 houses. Originally, some of the provision was supposed to be private houses. Will affordable houses and cost-rental units be delivered in that number of 254 houses? We want to get the mix right between social, affordable and cost rental.
Mr. Brian Geaney:
Yes, and we are looking. The local members of Cork City Council will be aware of the cost-rental project currently in Knocknaheeny. Again, though, I must be clear. There is no point in us bringing forward a proposal for affordable housing for sale unless that housing is available to and affordable by the local community. We previously had a project that we wanted to make affordable but, unfortunately, when the tenders came in, it was not possible to sell the units as affordable housing or whatever at the time. We are now looking at a cost-rental project. The details of that will be explained and gone through with local elected members.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I would encourage Mr. Geaney and the chief executive. There are people from Knocknaheeny, Gurranabraher, Churchfield and Farranree who want to live in their communities but because it is all social housing, anyone who wants to buy a house or is over the threshold has to leave. We are losing brilliant, great people from our community. I know that is not the fault of the council because it does not set the thresholds for social housing, but we must give people the option of affordable and cost-rental units.
In relation to phase 2C and the 24 houses on Kilmore Road, work started on them in 2019 and the houses are still not finished.
Will we see an increase in the cost of the unfinished homes on Kilmore Road, which we hope will be delivered this summer? The last figure was €900,000 above what was originally to be paid for those houses. Has the council got an overall figure for what the total cost will be? Is Cork City Council going to take legal action against the developer who left the houses in those conditions?
Mr. Brian Geaney:
The Deputy is aware, and local elected members are aware, that the previous contract was terminated following a lengthy conciliation process. The details of the conciliation are confidential but there was a claim in the tens of millions of euro against the council and when the settlement was reached it was very much in favour of Cork City Council. Although the houses remain unfinished, they will be finished this autumn. The council came out very well from a project where the contractor underperformed and I think that was clear for everyone else to see.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Where we have contractors like that which underperform and leave estates half-built, will the experience the officials have gained from this provide a way for us to tackle such contractors and stop this happening in future?
The cost of delivering homes in Knocknaheeny is substantially lower than in Limerick even though the homes in Limerick were delivered earlier, so the overall funding allocation to Knocknaheeny is lower. Can the Department explain why that is the case?
Mr. David Dalton:
There was no funding allocation from the Department for social housing in Knocknaheeny. Any projects that come through from the city council for housing in Knocknaheeny or any other area will be fully funded if they are well-designed, well-planned and well-costed. We do not give a specific allocation for housing delivery.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Mr. Geaney might want to start putting more applications in then.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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But how is Limerick getting more money than Cork? I have no problem and I hope Limerick gets loads of money, but I cannot understand why there is a difference between housing delivery in Cork and regeneration housing delivery in Limerick.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am talking about the cost per unit. If you build 100 or 1,000 it is probably cheaper if there is bigger scale. In Knocknaheeny it is 654 and I am not sure how much Limerick was. It was much bigger than that, was it not? Limerick should have been cheaper than Cork because it was a much bigger project. I will be coming back on that one.
Mr. David Dalton:
I might come in on that one. Mr. Geaney is right that the scale of the two projects are completely different. The mix of what we are supporting in Limerick and what we are supporting in Cork is completely different. Dr. Daly called it out and I called it out in my opening statement. There have been 1,700 refurbishments in Limerick city alone. The scale is completely different to Cork. The amount that is invested reflects that. It is the same with new homes being built to replaced demolished homes. It is just a different scale, a different level of funding and a different programme.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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But units are units.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. We are going to move on to Deputy Cooney.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Chair. I thank all the witnesses for coming in and for their opening statements. To Limerick City and County Council, as was mentioned in the opening statement some of the challenges that justified regeneration have not disappeared even though a lot has been achieved. Regeneration is about dignity, opportunity, health, safety and hope. Maybe the officials will outline how much of that has been achieved in the years since the regeneration programme started in Limerick.
Dr. Pat Daly:
I thank the Deputy for the question. I will begin and Mr. McCarthy might join in. There has been a quantum leap from when we started back in 2007 to now. Going to the comments Ms McCormack made also, there has been investment in communities, leadership and support. The Deputy used the very important word "dignity". The respect we give these communities and we hope they give to us is probably the baseline. We do not want to be talking about regeneration in another five or ten years. We would prefer if these were just great locations that are expanding and growing. That is beginning to happen. It will take more money and longer than people had ever envisaged. You are dealing with intergenerational issues so it is going to take a generation to get back out of those.
We can look at key indices on employment retention, attainment, job opportunities, training and development and, regarding the physical realm, roads development and placemaking opportunities have really transformed the areas. If you got to any of the regenerated areas in Limerick, you will see fantastic building being done. There is an energy you can feel. It is only the start and there is much more to be done but working in the community and working though the community has been the key. I hope if we have been able to do anything it is to seed some ambition and opportunity for everybody that they can avail of. People have said they are very proud they are of and from Limerick, that they do not feel separated from it and that they are part of our future. That has been very important. A lot of people made that comment to me and it is the mark of a programme that is really working, though there is more to do.
Mr. Brian McCarthy:
As Dr. Daly said, regeneration is more than just building houses. In Limerick we have taken it across the three pillars of physical regeneration, economic regeneration and social regeneration. In many ways it is with the social pillar that the deepest and most generational work takes place. It is the pillar that not only assists people, it actually protects the investment in housing and infrastructure as well. In Limerick City and County Council, through the social regeneration schemes in particular we support children, families and older people to improve education. We can add a number of metrics to that. For example, targeted regeneration has facilitated more than 13,000 annual interventions across Moyross, Southill, Ballinacurra-Weston and St. Mary's Park. Compared with the last census, Moyross has grown in population by almost 4%, Southill is up to 3%, St. Mary's Park by 1% but Ballinacurra-Weston has grown by up to 10%. All these targeted social and economic interventions are having an effect as well.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Again, I compliment the officials on a lot achieved. The Limerick northern distributor road that opened this year was mentioned. As a result - and again as we are well aware - there was a huge amount of work between Clare County Council, Limerick City and County Council and the Government. That was very welcome. How important is this infrastructure to the regeneration of Moyross and the people who live there? It has a massive population.
Mr. Brian McCarthy:
The Deputy is right. The Limerick northern distributor road is probably one of the most significant strategic infrastructure projects delivered in Limerick or Shannon in recent decades. As he touched on, it is a product of genuine partnership between Limerick City and County Council, Clare County Council, the Department and various other Departments as well. Regeneration does not just have an impact on the communities; it has far-reaching implications for the wider area. With the regeneration of Moyross in particular, the LNDR delivers more than just transport. It opens up opportunities for people in Moyross for social, economic and educational development. If you look back at the Fitzgerald report, it touched on how Moyross was physically separated from Limerick and the wider area. The LNDR has changed that. From our colleagues in regeneration speaking to the people in Moyross, the road opening up sends a very powerful message for regeneration that it is a vote of confidence and that the community is no longer on the edge of the city but fully integrated into it. That opens up social, employment and educational opportunities.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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As we are well aware, it is fabulous infrastructure and very welcome in the area.
The Department outlined its continued support to the Cork and Limerick councils, which is welcome. In the meantime, in line with commitments in the new housing plan, Delivering Homes, Building Communities, its team is developing a revised social housing, estate remediation and regeneration programme. This programme will be available to all local authorities and should be rolled out in early 2027, which again is very welcome and very important. How are other local authorities, such as the one in Clare, going to benefit from that? One of the big issues we have in Clare is pyrite. A number of housing developments are affected by pyrite. Will pyrite come under that roll-out? Maybe the Department will give an update on what can be achieved from that roll-out of funding.
Mr. David Dalton:
Unfortunately, pyrite and defective concrete blocks will not be covered under the regeneration programme. They will be funded under a separate funding stream through the Department. The revised programme will involve an estate-by-estate approach, with a call for proposals from local authorities. We have been engaging quite comprehensively with local authorities trying to gauge some level of demand across local authorities, including Clare County Council very recently and Cavan, Monaghan and Westmeath county councils. We would be surprised if there was not at least one estate that would not come in very quickly from each local authority. The likes of Cavan, Westmeath and Longford county councils are already talking about two or three social housing estates that immediately spring to mind in the context of support.
It is very much in the early stages of development, but what we are looking at is funding the regeneration of homes in those estates. These are public and private homes that may previously have been public homes that were old to private tenants, and we will fund these. There is some element of public realm works, and larger scale environmental reimagining where there are large-scale works needed in an estate in order to deal with antisocial behaviour and the restructuring of those estates, and some element of community facilities and supports. Again, the extent and scale of this level of support has to be worked out, because we are not the only funder in this regard.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Dalton have any idea as to the type of funding that will be invested in these projects?
Mr. David Dalton:
It will depend very much on the scale of the projects coming through. We are dealing with two or three local authorities in terms of trying to identify the scale and types of supports that will be needed. One estate we deal with could be somewhere between €2 million to €10 million. Another might require €20 million or €30 million. It will be assessed on a case-by-case basis.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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The most important thing is that it will be rolled out in 2027. Funding will be available for local authorities to make applications and, hopefully, it will be progressed onwards and upwards. Some of these estates are well past their sell-by dates and need to be brought up to a decent standard. Am I right in saying that?
Mr. David Dalton:
Yes, and I suppose it recognises the fact that while the investment in Limerick, Cork, Dublin, Dundalk, Kerry and Sligo has been very impactful, there are other areas around the country and other local authority housing estates that are in desperate need of investment. It is to ensure that there is an equitable distribution of the funding across the country.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That is very important. We can see what has been achieved in Limerick city and Cork city, in fairness.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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I am delighted to be part of this discussion. I did my PhD on social housing regeneration many years ago. I have written books on the subject and worked in regeneration in Dolphins Barn and Dolphin House for many years.
Some of the key lessons around regeneration have been set out, but a number of aspects need greater focus. I refer, in particular, to an issue that is not mentioned enough, namely community participation and involvement in decision-making at all levels of regeneration. There is the issue of investing in retaining and nurturing the communities as opposed to just viewing them as housing estates. They need to be seen as communities that have histories and whose members have real ties to each other and who provide massive support to each other. There is also the issue of social regeneration and investment in communities.
This, of course, is not just a local authority responsibility; it is a cross-government responsibility. We know that there is a real issue in relation to ensuring that all Departments which have a responsibility in this area are involved. We must also ensure that people have a decent standard of living during and after regeneration and that there is decent community livability. The latter is one of the big issues that is still not being addressed. Houses are often replaced, but the issues in communities are not dealt with. Ballymun in my constituency is in some respects considered to be a very successful regeneration model, but there are the issues on the ground that I have been dealing with since I was elected as a TD just over a year and a half ago. Some of the really positive aspects of regeneration delivered new housing, Axis Ballymun and community and arts facilities. We can see how a community has been changed. However, issues still remain, particularly issues of deprivation. Looking at the Pobal deprivation index for Ballymun, some parts of it have seen no change over the past decade. There is still extreme disadvantage.
The basics have still not been done. There is poor maintenance. I have been dealing with a number of cases of people having mould and damp in houses that were regenerated. Part of the issue relates to the poor standard of housing that was built during the Celtic tiger period. In an area where regeneration is officially finished, it is shocking that, at some level, we still have the same problems, obviously not on the same scale but they are there. I refer to mould, damp and people not having decent living standards. There are also the wider issues of community facilities, playgrounds and drug use. Open drug dealing is still going on. There are issues with people not being safe. We have ongoing issues in Ballymun.
What this shows is that for the State tackling deprivation requires a multi-departmental approach, going after community engagement and investing in youth and community work. My question, particularly to the Department, is whether lessons have been learned on valuing communities and valuing social housing. A big mistake was made 20 years ago when there was an idea that social housing estates had failed. It feels as though there is recognition now that these communities are valued and that social housing is valued. We still have to tackle the underlying issues, however.
Mr. David Dalton:
The Deputy and I would agree that provision of social housing is both a cornerstone and a critical aspect of the housing system. Our failure to deliver social housing between 2010 and 2020 is one of the main reasons that we are where we are. I could not disagree with an awful lot of what Deputy Hearne said. There are many years of community development and local development experience sitting on this side of the table. I have 17 years' experience of community policy. Ms Basquill is a practitioner also. We are very mindful of the critical importance of all of the aspects, whether physical, social or economic. It is a very strong focus that we bring to bear.
From the Department's perspective, Deputy Hearne hit the nail on the head. All responsible Departments must come to the table. It is a cross-government and cross-agency responsibility. While we understand the critical need for all of the non-housing interventions, it is simply not possible, and it would not be appropriate, for the Department to be involved in all aspects of it. The challenge for us is that we are working with local authorities to try to identify the full suite of supports and the sources of funding and help secure them. This has been a challenge, especially in the context of the Limerick regeneration framework implementation plan, with regard to trying to secure other Departments at the table.
The Limerick regeneration programme was born of very tragic circumstances in 2006 or 2007. There was a very immediate need for somebody to step in and for a programme and funding to be put in place. Our Department did that and it was right to do so. We continue to fund the Limerick regeneration programme up to today. We will continue to fund it and the Cork regeneration programme. We are fully committed to both programmes. As the mayor stated in his submission, regeneration will not be complete when the plan is finished; it will continue. We are fully committed to it in Cork and Limerick. The challenge for us is to bring other Departments around the table. Dr. Daly and the team with him will appreciate how difficult this has been for us as a Department and for Limerick City and County Council.
Rory Hearne (Dublin North-West, Social Democrats)
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Perhaps Dr. Daly would like to speak about this and offer any reflections he has on what I said.
Dr. Pat Daly:
Deputy Hearne summarised the issues. The community element is the critical piece. We can build houses and physical infrastructure, but we also have to build mindsets and support. Consistent community support that is ongoing and everywhere is key. What we find as leaders is that fatigue builds up quite quickly because it is difficult and long-term work; it is not nine to five. We need a different approach.
It is on the back of a plan, but where we have had success there have been very strong, resilient community leaders who can pick up the phone to us at any time, including evenings and weekends, and get stuff done or just want to have a discussion on something and an approach. That has been quite successful. In matching the physical investment, we have to match the social investment. Particularly when it is intergenerational or there has been long-term scarring, we have to do more, we have to do it deeper and we have to stay with it. That is the key. We are seeing the benefits now in areas of Limerick, some more than others, because it has been a consistent approach and we have stakeholders across all the key stakeholder groups that are working with us on a common ground and on a common plan that are as committed. That has worked very well, and the communities have responded quite quickly. We are very conscious of overweening on leaders and conscious that they are largely voluntary sometimes. We have to try to help and support them through any crises that come up and just consistently work on the ground with them. We are regenerating all of Limerick and indeed the county towns in different ways. There is nothing different in the approach except the intensity and the total approach that has to be there. That is important. We have also had our framework plan, which people have signed up to, and we understand where we are trying to get to. We may not get there in total or in the way we expected at some points but there is a plan, there is a vision and people have broadly supported it such that we can work through. Again, it is just a matter of having that all aligned and in the right way.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I apologise I was late. I missed the witnesses' earlier contributions but I have read over some of the stuff. I am not familiar with the regeneration projects in their own particular areas so I will not scrutinise them too much because I am not in a position to judge.
One issue Deputy Gould touched on that I would like to ask about is the degree to which the witnesses would acknowledge or have a view on the possible concentration and segregation of very vulnerable people and low-income households and extreme disadvantage in newly regenerated or new housing developments because of income thresholds, which I consider to be a major problem. There was a mantra that was around in housing policy for quite a long period and has been since I came into the Dáil. As was rightly said, and some of us argued this very strenuously, not building housing at all for a decade was an absolute disaster. Some of us argued very strongly against all that but that is for another day. There was a mantra about mixed tenure and so on and social mixing, a good idea in theory, but in practice it seems we are doing the exact opposite. Is there any awareness, acceptance or acknowledgement that this is what is happening because of the thresholds? There are cohorts of people who used to be in social housing who are now disqualified. We have ended up with a heavy concentration of people who are very vulnerable or on very low incomes so disadvantage is being concentrated in a way that runs counter to all that talk about social mix, and that is very counterproductive. It is regressive even in comparison to how things were done in the past when there was a much wider spectrum of society eligible for social housing. Now there are far fewer people. Then we will say, "But we will bring in cost rental and affordable", but very often they are not in the same place, there is much less of them in any event and, as is now becoming clear, sometimes people exceed those thresholds and are not eligible for social housing any more but neither are they, on income grounds, eligible for cost rental. Maybe that is another day's issue as well, but I am just wondering the degree to which there is a recognition or acknowledgement that these are problems.
My other question is about retrofit. Does the Department have any sense of how many social homes have to be retrofitted to get them up to proper BER standards? How is it doing on that? My sense, certainly in my area, is that the retrofit of homes where there are serious problems with damp and so on or inadequate insulation is very slow.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Maybe the Department could take that.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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How many? Could Mr. Dalton say that again?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Ten per cent.
Mr. David Dalton:
It is over 10%. It is about 12%. By the end of the year we hope to get to 15%, and by 2030 we hope to have what will probably be at that stage 180,000 or 190,000 local authority social homes fully surveyed. As to what we have seen so far, again, the Department does not have full access to the surveys carried out but we have access to the top level data and we can see the type of progress being made. For example, of those 17,900 that have been surveyed, around 2.1 million action points could be impacted, and around 93% of those do not require any work at all. When we talk about an action point, it could be fixing a plug, fixing a tap or replacing a roof. The scale and the breadth is different, but what we are seeing is that around 4% or 5% of those require immediate works.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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How many?
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Is that of those that have been surveyed?
Mr. David Dalton:
Of the action points of each of those surveys, yes, but again, it is very early days in the programme. We are trying to institute a completely different culture in moving from a reactive voids approach to maintenance to a planned maintenance approach whereby it is done on a cyclical basis every few years in order that the issues that have arisen across the country in our local authority social housing estates do not continue to arise. We cannot keep throwing money at void properties and at very poorly maintained properties. We have to keep them at a high standard on an ongoing basis, and that is the shift we are trying to promote with local authorities at the moment.
Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Could I have some comments on regeneration and concentrating disadvantage?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We might take Cork City Council first.
Mr. Brian Geaney:
One of our successful points in our housing delivery in Cork is the number of brownfield sites we are delivering. We have gone away now very much outside of the regeneration area of Knocknaheeny in building large social housing estates. Certainly, that is a thing of the past in Cork. Through the competitive dialogue process, we have a partnership model whereby we partner with the private sector and use the Part 8 process. What that has resulted in is regeneration of parts of the city that otherwise would not have seen these developments, and smaller developments.
Going back to maintenance and management, we are partnering then with approved housing bodies in terms of managing those developments going forward, and they been very successful. There was one house built in Cork city in 2014; 2,900 homes were provided between 2022 and 2025, and 3,000 social and affordable units are under construction. The scale of what we have come from is enormous. While we fully acknowledge that the maintenance of some of our older stick is difficult and units require a lot of maintenance, our new developments are very well-managed and have integrated very well into those communities that have never seen social housing in the past. We acknowledge as well the gap between net income for social housing being €40,000 and cost rental at €59,000. We would like to see that increased, as it is in Dublin, to €66,000, but we acknowledge that there is a gap there between what those cost-rental units and what the rents per month will be charged at. There is a massive difference between what those on social housing are paying and what those people will pay for cost-rental units going forward.
Our experience in terms of new social housing in the city has integrated extremely well. We have taken a very careful and considered approach to the management and development of that over the past number of years.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for being with us. Looking through the letters that were sent to us, I acknowledge the Mayor of Limerick's letter. I thank him for working things so that Dr. Pat Daly could here today. It is unfortunate that Mayor Moran could not be here. It is a wider issue, in that his position is the first of its kind and Limerick is a real test of a different model of regional governance. Down the road, perhaps we could look at something like that.
Has regeneration shown that it is no longer simply about funding, but about Departments all working together? A couple of week ago, we had an issue regarding a new housing development of 4,000 houses in a particular area, yet the Department of education was not playing a part in the negotiations, etc. Are the Departments working together? Have the witnesses experienced that? I ask Mr. Dalton to answer those questions.
Mr. David Dalton:
As I outlined, probably one of the biggest challenges from the Department of housing's perspective is to secure the engagement of other Departments. We very much see Departments continuing to operate in silos. Consider the broad swathe of investments and interventions that are needed. Deputy Gould outlined the long list of non-housing capital projects that are critically needed in Knocknaheeny and the surrounding area. Bringing those Departments and State agencies to the table is a big challenge.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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Do the local authorities have enough authority to co-ordinate all of that or does more authority need to be given? Is it too fragmented from a governmental point of view?
Mr. David Dalton:
Plans like the Limerick regeneration framework implementation plan and the Cork regeneration programme are ultimately local authority plans. It is the local authorities that are responsible for agreeing those actions and what is needed and, to a large extent, identifying where that funding is going to come from. It can be very challenging. Working with the Department is probably the key to securing that level of investment. My team and Dr. Daly's team have been working together over the past couple of months to try to secure alternative mainstream sustainable funding for the economic and social interventions, for example. It is challenging to secure those funding streams. Without ourselves and the local authorities working together, it is very difficult.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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What I find from different committees that I sit on is that it seems that there is good stuff happening, but there is no joined-up thinking and communication between Departments.
I wish to raise Colivet Court in Southill with Dr. Daly. There is a development on my doorstep in Naas called McAuley Place. It is elderly housing. It is an award-winning development. Colivet Court down in Limerick is the same for age-friendly accommodation. Its idea was to release housing stock and make sure that older people remained in their own communities while potentially giving up larger family homes. That is a potential win-win. Will Dr. Daly summarise how Southill is going? Has it demonstrated that the approach works well in practice?
Dr. Pat Daly:
I thank the Senator for his questions. Yes, it has. It tries to retain people by right-sizing in their communities so that we can release and redevelop larger homes for appropriate clients. That is the key. People want to stay in their communities. They are used to their communities. Their friends and families are there, so it is critical to do that. All tenure and social mixes will have to have that across the board. We are trying to build that into many schemes. We have had good examples across the city and county of right-sizing. I will ask Mr. White to comment a little bit further on that.
Mr. Declan White:
We have seen examples of downsizing throughout the Southill area over the years. It has worked quite well in terms of the decanting process and the ability to deliver new housing schemes as part of the decanting. Southill, as a community, has grown and been reinvigorated. In recent years, we undertook various surveys of people on our waiting list and asked where they would like to live. Southill is a high priority for them. Hence, we are looking at a number of housing schemes on the southside of the city, which is all a positive news story.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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Has the council done any evaluation regarding the quality of life of the people who have moved into Colivet Court? As Mr. White has sort of suggested, should this become part of an overall national housing strategy?
Dr. Pat Daly:
Yes. Follow-up is critical. People have been in one home, and definitely in one area, for a long time. When they step down into a different facility, beyond their families and friends, there is a need to check in. We are reviewing that. More importantly, what does it mean for the design of these houses? Have we got them right the first time? Are they easy to manage? We are working with Age Friendly Ireland and the HSE on the adaptations so that, in time, people will not have to go retrofitting through adaptation schemes or grants. If we get this right, the adaptations will be automatically built in. We are constantly evaluating for the person themselves, but also for the design principles.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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Limerick's Mayor has sent a letter to the Cathaoirleach asking the committee to go down and visit Limerick. It would be a very worthwhile exercise in the future.
My last questions are to Mr. Dalton. After 20 years of regeneration, what is the single biggest lesson that the Government has learned that should influence future housing policy? For example, we have just spoken about elderly housing. Is there any big flashing light?
Mr. David Dalton:
Not wanting to be trite, but it does not end, it just continues. There is a constant need for investment and engagement. One of the biggest lessons is that the work on regeneration is never done. From a community perspective, it is about the integration of the physical, social and economic funding streams and bringing along all of those interventions at the same time. As mentioned earlier, we cannot just deliver the housing and deliver the results. The social interventions are as critical, if not more important.
Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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I am involved in an approved housing body. I work with a particular cohort that come from an addiction or homeless background. Unless we have the proper supports, the housing is just one small element of it. We feed 500 people at the Lighthouse Homeless Café, but if I was given 500 houses today, it would not solve that problem.
I thank the witnesses so much for their answers.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all of the witnesses for being here. It is much appreciated. I will start with Cork city. In the second round, I will hopefully get to the other representatives.
I acknowledge the good work that is done in Cork city in terms of regeneration in the city centre itself. There is the Cork docklands project, which is well under way, on both the northside and southside. I acknowledge the role that the city has played in that. Of course, the Cork city futures group has been established and the city is taking a leading role in it. There is a lot of positive work there.
On housing delivery, that 3,000 social and affordable units are under construction is significant. It is a very sizeable pipeline. It is many yards away from where we were a number of years ago. I give compliments there.
On a positive note, Cork city was one of the first out of the traps in progressing affordable housing. I have long been an advocate of affordable purchase housing. Cork city has certainly led the way there.
Regarding the core regeneration topic and some of the focus on the northside in terms of the north-west quarter, it is great to see the commitment of €100 million and work being under way there. That is all very positive. Equally, however, there are challenges on the southside in terms of regeneration. The project at Noonan Road, St. Finbar's Road, Fort Street and Dean Street is under way, with 80% of residents relocated. That is very welcome. I ask for a quick update on that particular regeneration project.
Mr. Brian Geaney:
A significant body of work has been undertaken on Noonan Road over the past couple of years. There were flat complexes that we deemed to have gone past the refurbishment phase. The demolition of the first blocks will commence in the next couple of weeks. We have a tender package ready. We will use the competitive dialogue process that we have used very successfully in the city for the delivery of housing. It will be a mixed-tenure scheme. We are looking at over 200 units to be developed there. It is a site that is very close to the city centre at the foot of St. Fin Barre’s Cathedral. We all agree it needs regeneration.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It needs it. That is good. Is the mixed tenure social and cost rental? Would there be any affordable purchase involved in that?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I continually drive the affordable purchase angle because it often is not included in these mixed-tenure developments. That is welcome.
I will move towards the Togher end. I know a lot has been done in the public realm there, the flood relief scheme and so on but there are ongoing challenges in terms of some of the flat complexes on Clashduv Road, Togher Road, Cherry Tree Road, etc. There is housing there in a really poor condition. They were not mentioned in the opening statement. Will Mr. Geaney give me some insight into what the plan is?
Mr. Brian Geaney:
We are carrying out a number of surveys and meeting with individual residents at the moment. We are carrying out repairs as necessary. We will be going back to our elected members shortly on the conclusion of that with an overall plan that we are looking to come forward with. We are delighted to hear from the Department’s perspective that the national regeneration programme will open up again. We will be looking at a number of projects in Cork city to come forward with regeneration proposals. We acknowledge that some of those flat complexes need an intervention but we are working with our local elected members and the local communities on developing an overall plan.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Geaney envisages a plan for that area going from the city council in the relatively near future.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a work in progress. That is positive.
Further to the regeneration argument, I would argue that the events centre is very relevant to the regeneration of, and investment in, the city centre. A new procurement process is under way for the events centre. The situation has a long history, unfortunately, but the fact that there is a renewed commitment to it from the city council and the Government is welcome. This month was the closing date for the first phase, namely, the suitability assessment questionnaire. Can I get an update on the overall project insofar as Mr. Geaney can say anything publicly at this stage?
Mr. Brian Geaney:
As the Deputy will be aware, the preliminary business case was approved last April. What people have to realise is that when the Government decided, for good reason, that the project had to be retendered, it meant we were literally back to square 1. The preliminary business case is approved. The suitability assessment questionnaires, SAQ, responses are in. The evaluation is happening next week. As it is a live competition, I am precluded from saying how many submissions have been received. We are back out to the final stages of the tendering process to identify a preferred bidder but I expect that substantial progress will be made in the current year.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will the chief executive comment on that, please?
Ms Valerie O'Sullivan:
On the wider issue of regeneration, apart from what Mr. Geaney outlined on social housing schemes and regeneration on the outskirts of the city, we are very much focused on city centre regeneration and what will flow from that if we get it right. In a very short time, we have acquired the Counting House in the city because we believe that big key developmental projects like it and the events centre will, sooner rather than later, have a huge spin-off effect on attracting people and investment and improving the standard of city centre usage as a place to work and live in. With that in mind, two new bridges have gone into Cork. Marina Park is now complete and second to none in any European city, and has had a massive effect on the confidence levels in Cork. The amenity for docklands regeneration is there, front-loaded. There is Bishop Lucey Park, the public realm of South Main Street, the Grand Parade being master planned in anticipation of the library relocating, and all of that. The northern end of Patrick Street will be looking quite different this year because we are extremely invested in this. Regeneration will be top of our agenda both in the social housing estates but also in the city centre so that the docklands is matched by a quality city centre.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will finish on the events centre because it is the flagship development that will really leap Cork's city centre forward. It is something everyone wants to see progress. I understand that the council is in a public process at present. What is the broad timeline of the assessment that will get under way in the next couple of months and then progress to the final phase of procurement?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely. Mr. Geaney can be conservative.
Mr. Brian Geaney:
Of the projects that have been submitted, it very much depends on how the evaluation process goes. It is out in the public domain. There is a project with current planning approval in place. It will depend how that evaluation process goes over the next couple of months. It would be premature to speculate on dates at this stage.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It would be fair to say that a substantial part of that work will be done by the time the year is out.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Geaney remains positive and upbeat about the project.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I thank Mr. Geaney. I appreciate it.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I have eight minutes. I would need 80 hours if I had a chance to speak on Limerick regeneration, which is probably the regeneration that has been around the longest. I welcome the representatives from Limerick. They are working really hard and doing the best they can. Some 16 or 17 years ago, Mr. Geaney was in the St. Mary’s Park area when I was not even an elected representative but I was working with him there.
It is hard to describe regeneration because it is very difficult. This is not the fault of anyone in this room but everyone is disappointed because we initially had the wonderful launches in 2008 and 2009. President McAleese came to Limerick and we had a fantastic launch in Moyross first in the morning and then Southill in the afternoon. There were massive plans and it outlined a lot more than Deputy Gould mentioned for Cork. There were projects that have never seen the light of day, unfortunately. We had the economic crash when Fianna Fáil crashed the economy and money was pulled from the programmes, so a lot of promises made at the time still haunt us to this day. We are still dealing with the legacy issues of that.
In 2011, we had the Limerick regeneration framework implementation plan, which is what we are dealing with at the moment. We will probably not implement all of what is in that, which is probably 10% of what was in the 2008-09 plan. That is the scale of disappointment that people in Limerick have experienced.
Regeneration did not just come to Limerick. It was not a case of simply going into Limerick to regenerate it. There were reasons it came in. There was gang warfare breaking out. Children were nearly murdered. There were shootings on a daily basis. There was criminality and gang war. Those dark days have passed us, by and large. They are gone and we have dealt with them. Many of us stood up to those thugs at the time.
Then we come back to where we are at present. We have four areas in particular in the city: Moyross, Southill, St. Mary's Park and Ballinacurra Weston. Moyross is probably the area I know best because I grew up in Ballynanty, which Moyross was built out of. As people have referenced, it is very positive at the moment in there. There is a redeveloped community centre, a lot of houses have been built and hopefully a train station will get over the line shortly. Believe it or not, I am not saying I agree with them but a private hospital is being built in the Moyross area - or a not-for-profit as it would say. There are also plans to open up all the land on the north side of Moyross. I disagree with some of my colleagues as it is not the northern distributor road; it is the Coonagh to Knockalisheen distributor road. The northern distributor road is another project that has been shelved, which the Department will not even talk about. That would bring us out at the Mackey roundabout and it also needs to be done for Limerick.
Then we have the problems where we are at the moment. People are deeply concerned. The ESIF funding has been phased out and is gone. That was up to €4 million per year which supported many projects, and not just in the regeneration areas. For instance, the St. Munchin's Community Centre in the nearby area would have benefited from that. This is a group that is not in the area but does the breakfast club in Corpus Christi School, which is a brilliant school - probably the best. I put it on the record of the Dáil last week that it is probably the best school in Limerick. We had Mr. O'Neill and Dr. Lindsey from the school here at the disability matters committee that I chair, speaking about the brilliant project it has, "Sky is the Limit." We are also concerned about funding going forward for the HAPPEE programme, which was funded under ESIF. Six schools in the city benefited from that.
Limerick also has the most deprived areas in the State. Beyond doubt, St. Mary's Park is the most deprived. You then go to Southill, which looks well but there are still many problems going on there. We still need to deliver a lot more houses in the area. There is mass overcrowding in a number of houses which still have ten or 12 people living in them. The delivery of homes is not up to speed with what we need to do there. Moving across Southill, it looks well, as does the community centre. We built the new Churchfield, with one and two phases, where people are living and which looks well. Carew Park will be finished shortly. Colivet Court is similar. As Senator McCarthy referenced, it is a very good project which was one of the first to be done back in the day. Again, there were many houses demolished there and a lot more need to be built. Overall, we demolished approximately 1,200 houses - probably more - across the four regeneration areas and we did not deliver back anywhere near the scale of that.
In the written statement he provided, the mayor referred to 495 houses having been delivered. He stated, "Yet residents do not judge regeneration through plans, strategies or investment totals. They judge it through simple questions", and the first question was, "Do they feel safe?" Moving onto the two other regeneration areas, which are St. Mary's Park and Ballinacurra Weston, people in those areas do not feel safe; they 100% do not feel safe.
We have a gang war going on in Ballinacurra Weston, which is no fault of anybody in this room. However, when John Fitzgerald did his report in 2008 and 2009, he suggested Limerick needed 100 extra gardaí and a superintendent. We never got that. If you look at the figures from 31 December this year, we had six extra gardaí compared with what we had in 2008 and 2009. That gives a sense of the situation .
There as also an outbreak of crack cocaine across the city, which has wrecked communities. Anybody who goes into St. Mary's Park - and I bring everybody who comes to Limerick into it - sees the same thing when we drive or walk around it: they literally cannot speak when they see the state of the place. We have been in a regeneration programme for 15 years, and it is a disgrace. We should all be ashamed of that.
I will come back to my questions because I am running out of time. Dr. Daly is here. The mayor cannot be here. We understand he has good reasons for this - the AGM of the council is on at present.
Dr. Daly is responsible for policy and the mayor is responsible for delivery, is that correct?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The four regeneration areas are probably in the top ten most deprived areas in the whole State, probably even in the top five. Who came up with the policy to get rid of the cap on rent? In regeneration estates, rents were capped but that cap has now gone and I believe this has contributed to not addressing the issue of social exclusion. Who came up with that?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The council did it, though.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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The outcome of some of that is we are not getting out of the poverty we had hoped to get out of faster. The council has taken people's rent now, basically. I am dealing with these cases all the time. Some people's rents have exponentially increased and they are not able to pay it. They might have a good job or whatever but they still have outstanding bills.
We are now dealing with a situation whereby the council's housing maintenance department will not do housing maintenance because these people are in arrears through no fault of their own; they simply did not have the money. Does the council have any plans to address that? I know people in regeneration areas 14 or 15 years into the plan who have no heating because they might be in arrears.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Who decided to get rid of the cap?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, but it was decided by Limerick council, was it not? It was not instructed by the Department.
Dr. Pat Daly:
No, it was Limerick. However, part of that is tied into the levels and benefits. We are trying to get the retrofits right. If people have difficulty because of the rental review we did on payments, we are very gentle and encouraging and can do payment plans around that. We would never let that be an issue.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but the problem is that people end up in arrears through no fault of their own and cannot get housing maintenance done, which has left people in critical situations without heating.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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When the project officially ended, Limerick council took over, and in fairness, it is doing its best - let me put that on the record. You will not get better staff than Mr. White and Ms McCormack anywhere in the State. I do not know Mr. McCarthy that well as I just met him recently since he took on his new role, but you will not get staff as good as those two. However, we are dealing with what we have been left with. We are dealing with legacies and promises that were made. There has been house delivery delays, which the Department might come in on.
For instance, we CPO'd houses in St. Mary's Park three or four years ago. There is a crack house, which was famously all over the news, sitting there idle. There are three of them in a row. We have been waiting for funding to come through for that for years. How does it take so long?
Mr. Declan White:
We are now through Part 8 of the planning process with that and we are waiting for our consultants to pull together the final documentation to drive on that particular project. We expect to be onsite with the refurbishment of 15, 17 and 19 St. Ita's Street, which was the former crack house, in 2027.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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In fairness, it was boarded up a few years ago. That is what frustrates people. They come out of their doors and look at these three houses, and what has been done there? Dumping and more dumping for the past three or more years.
When the funding for regeneration ended, what policies were put in place to replace that missing funding? I am not just talking about the ESIF funding. We all know the struggles there. Senator Ryan referenced a letter we all wrote to the Department and the Ministers. What policy is there to replace funding for fixing roads and footpaths or whatever, from existing council moneys?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We have just gone over time.
Dr. Pat Daly:
We are obviously working with Department stakeholders to maintain the moneys and give us a longer shelf life because that is critical, but I think we have to mainstream some of those approaches, and we are going to have to make a separate ask of Government or Departments to compensate that money if it is clear it has definitely gone off the table. I am hoping we will be able to make a policy and strategy case; it just takes longer and we will have to stay with it a bit longer. While we are mainstreaming, we are having discussions with partners. Some are very positive on mainstreaming and others are not, so we have to be in a position to convince them these programmes work and they fit their profile. They probably should be agency-led or different Department-led. We will continue to do that, but we will have to factor this into the budgeting. If that day comes, we will have to get it from core budgets in terms of the budget cycle.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We have Senator Byrne next, who is substituting for Senator Murphy.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I welcome all the witnesses, especially those from Limerick. I acknowledge the fact I worked with Mr. Geaney in the past. I know he is below in Cork now.
First, I should declare a vested interest in that I am chairperson of Our Lady of Lourdes Community Centre, which is very much in the heart and centre of one of the regeneration areas. I put that on the record.
I apologise for not being present for the opening statements but I have read them. I am very aware of the regeneration work being carried out in Limerick. Mr. White is sick of me saying that while many areas have benefited from regeneration, Ballinacurra Weston has been left behind. Substantial plans are before the Department on how to bring on this area. Many people are living there. Deputy Quinlivan referred to the criminality issue there. Gardaí are in Our Lady of Lourdes community centre and school every day of the week and sometimes a couple of times a day. It is not very easy for the people working in the regeneration areas. A lot of positive things are happening but then we have negative issues with the criminality aspect. People are doing their level best on regeneration in the council and the Garda and there is joined-up thinking. Where is the plan?
The majority of the houses were knocked in Ballinacurra Weston. There have been replacement houses in St. Mary's Park, Southill and Moyross but there has been very little replacement in Ballinacurra Weston. The project of 120 accommodation units of various types is certainly key for the area. Will the witnesses comment on where this is at? Has there been any response from the Department?
Overall, regeneration has been very positive in Limerick in a lot of areas. Social regeneration is about removing the fabric of society and removing the houses. Many families who lived in the regeneration areas for years were moved out with the intention of coming back. However, to use Ballinacurra Weston again as an example, people have not been able to come back because the housing units are not there. A number of units on the Hyde Road have been closed for many years. Some of them are privately owned. Is there any update on these? Is there any opportunity for the council to take them over? We have a long waiting list but people are willing to live in the area, especially people who came from the area.
Dr. Pat Daly:
Mr. McCarthy may add on the masterplan. Southill, St. Mary's Park, Our Lady of Lourdes and Ballinacurra Weston will have opportunities through the larger-scale project of the Colbert quarter. This is a massive new development on which we are working with the Land Development Agency and which borders the area. When it gets moving and goes beyond planning, it will have a massive wraparound effect on the area, in addition to the masterplan that Mr. McCarthy will outline. It will give a different impetus in a number of years and we are looking forward to it. Mr. McCarthy will comment further.
Mr. Brian McCarthy:
In common with the approach taken throughout Limerick regeneration, we are approaching Ballinacurra Weston under the three pillars of economic, physical and social. Ballinacurra Weston has a fantastic strategic opportunity. Unlike St. Mary's Park, which is constrained by flood risk, Ballinacurra Weston does not have environmental constraint. We are taking a number of different approaches. We propose to reconnect Ballinacurra Weston with the city centre. As Dr. Daly said, the Colbert quarter will be an area of significant employment generation and education facilities. We will enhance pedestrian and cycleways to the city centre.
The second element is working to progress community infrastructure as well as housing, building on the great work done in Our Lady of Lourdes with the expansion of the crèche and the playground and enhancing youth facilities. There are also community facilities centred around the church for older persons. Building on the great work done by the lads in Our Lady of Lourdes, we are advocating for a youth diversion programme. Working in particular and closely with An Garda Síochána, we want to provide these wraparound services to the youth.
The masterplan itself comprises the redevelopment of the centre and in particular expansion of the crèche. We see childcare as a significant issue. In conjunction with community facilities, we are developing 120 apartments. This proposal is with the Department. I will ask Mr. White to speak on Hyde Road, as Senator Byrne had one or two queries on it. We are taking the approach of developing housing in conjunction with social and community infrastructure.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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Yes, the boarded-up properties that are halfway down on the left.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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That is okay and I thank the witnesses for their comments. The Colbert quarter will be positive. I recall attending a meeting with the Land Development Agency back in 2017 or 2018. I organised a meeting in the casino on Parnell Street for the residents on Mulgrave Street, the Parnell Street area and the Carey's Road area to see plans. We are now in 2026 and a brick has not been laid yet. Perhaps the witnesses will comment on this. How quickly will we see something happening? This area is key. There is a huge amount of land and there is a great opportunity to have older person units, family units and facilities for young people. There are quite a few young families in the area. I ask for comments on this.
Dr. Pat Daly:
I agree. There were reasons for the slow start but they had to do with planning and due diligence work. Now we have committed to a project delivery office, which will be supported and staffed by members seconded from the LDA, Limerick council and others in time. Once the office is up and running, there will be a concentrated effort and there will be a new urgency. In addition, the LDA will take direct action beyond this. The design and masterplan feature a very strong urban tenure mix and design principle. It is quite large, at more than 60 ha, at the terminus of the train station and bus station and is a perfectly placed transport and development hub, which we will build around. It may have been a little slow starting but I have no doubt it will gain pace and we are putting new energy in place to make sure this happens.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being with us. I have represented Ballymun and Finglas since 2009. At one stage, Ballymun was the largest regeneration project in Europe. We asked ourselves whether it was a regeneration project or a rehousing project. There is very much a connection between the physical infrastructure of a place and social regeneration or investment in tackling disadvantage. Some of the difficulties we experience relate to the fact that all of these things fall between different stools and different Departments. I will start with a question on how the Department of housing identifies regeneration projects that are required.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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It is a case of the local authorities coming to the Department with a case for regeneration.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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When a case is made for regeneration in an area, how is it assessed?
Mr. David Dalton:
It depends on the mix of interventions included in the programme. We have two completely different programmes here. Knocknaheeny is very much focused on the demolition and rebuilding of homes whereas Limerick has a much broader suite of actions. It depends very much on the programmes. It is very much with regard to the policy in place for the regeneration programme.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a standing subhead for regeneration in the voteable account?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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How much is that annually?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is that each year?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Where is the vast majority of this €50 million spent at present or will Mr. Dalton provide the committee with a breakdown of where the €50 million is?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Dalton give a breakdown of what is in Dublin city in that category?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Would it be fair to say the majority of that is on the hard physical infrastructure, primarily housing?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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When a regeneration project is established, what efforts do the Department make in order to engage other Departments in a regeneration project?
Mr. David Dalton:
I am not able to answer that question. I have been in the role for about ten months. We have not had an application fully come across the desk yet at this stage, but we have three local authorities we are working with in developing the new regeneration policy. We are trying to outline, as a first step with them, the suite of interventions we think should be covered under the new policy. We will then identify what agencies and Departments we need to engage with. We will probably take a twin-track approach to that. We will look for local authorities to engage locally with the agencies, and Departments where that is appropriate, and we will engage at a national level.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I know the success of elements of the Ballymun regeneration was that there was approval for housing and for demolition of the old blocks, but there was also substantial social regeneration funding provided by the Department. Over time, that was phased out and in Dublin, Mr. Brendan Kenny, who was common to both Limerick and Ballymun, allowed for that funding to be mainstreamed within the city council budget. It was phased out by the Department and phased in by the city council. Again, it is subject to a vote each year.
I would argue that in many cases the local authorities are left holding the can. I will give Mr. Dalton an example. There are 3,500 electoral districts in the country and 100 of those, the top 100 most disadvantaged with a minus-14 or minus-15 index, are listed. We all know where those places are. Within my own constituency, there are five or six electoral districts all in the top 30. The local authority is responsible for the housing in that area and the public realm. The local community safety partnerships, under the Department of justice, are responsible for safety and ultimately the Garda elements of it. Then you have the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht, which is responsible for the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP. There are three different programmes or three different areas of responsibility and there is very little engagement between the three providers except where ad hoc arrangements come in on the ground. The vast majority of the reasons why those ad hoc arrangements come about is because local authorities themselves come together and put those arrangements in place. I would argue that it is a very poor way of approaching regeneration and, for the Department with responsibility for regeneration, that a new policy would require a more statutory inter-agency approach.
I will give Mr. Dalton an example. There are area-based initiatives happening in Drogheda, Ballymun, Darndale and Cherry Orchard. They are all being led by the Department of justice. They are not part of the community safety partnership scheme but they are all slowly being seconded into that scheme; I am trying to think of a different word there but they are being brought within that scheme. That constantly loses the connection with Mr. Dalton's Department. I would argue that there are 100 electoral districts that are described as either very disadvantaged or extremely disadvantaged. We should take a systematic approach to dealing with those so that if an area goes into a minus-15 score or below, there is an automatic suite of measures available to the local authority, almost like federal funding in the United States. If you go below minus-15, then there are certain supports that would be available for you and it is not based on whether there is a good TD in an area or a good group of councillors advocating for something. It would not be a political football but an automatic response by the State. I would argue that policy is required and is something that is needed. I am trying to not take a parochial approach here but it is something that is desperately needed.
Mr. David Dalton:
We would definitely take that under consideration. We are already working with the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht, for example. The Deputy mentioned SICAP. We have already reached out to that Department. We are working with it in identifying the suite of measures under the new programme and we will be reaching out to other Government Departments as well. We are at a very early stage in the revision of that policy so we are open to any or all suggestions. We are engaging with three pilot areas and will be engaging with the broader local authority sector as we move along. We are very much at the early stage.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Department specifically engage with the Department of justice on those area-based interventions? In many cases, there are millions of euro going into these areas. It is often hard to understand whether we are getting value for money, whether it is being used effectively, or whether measure A worked in one area or measure B worked in another area. There needs to be much more co-ordination across the State.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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My contention is that it is the responsibility of the Departments of local government, community and justice to administer those things. Leaving it all to the local authority is just not going to work.
I have one last question. On CCTV, for example, I know Ballymun has 50 cameras and Limerick has 400. There is no budget at the moment in any Government Department for funding CCTV schemes operated by a local authority. Are we just going to leave that to local authorities as well?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The reason these issues arise is because of legacy issues around housing policy. Mr. Dalton himself said-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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-----that you cannot just build and not take into account the social issues.
Mr. David Dalton:
I did and I appreciate that. I believe that because that is what my background is but as an official now in the Department of housing, I am telling the Deputy that it is not a matter for the Department of housing to support CCTV. We have invested in CCTV in Limerick, for example, as part of the regeneration programme and we have invested, I would think, close to €9 million in the monitoring and operation of that over the past ten or 11 years. It is not appropriate for the Department to continue to do so.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I accept that but in the absence of the Department of justice supporting them, then it is the Department of housing's job to support the local government structure.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Has the Department engaged with the Department of justice on it?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We will move on. I have a couple of points myself. I am conscious of time. Oliver Bond House was mentioned. I know it is not for discussion today but a number of members from the committee went out there a number of weeks ago. Has there been progress made on coming to a solution and moving that project on?
Mr. David Dalton:
Yes. I believe the Department officials responsible for Dublin regeneration have met with officials in Dublin City Council. They discussed, I think, seven options and all of those are palatable to the Department. We are in a position now where we are waiting for Dublin City Council to put forward a recommended option. We have asked it do so as quickly as possible.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am from Longford. As I said earlier, we have our own regeneration department for a number of social estates, where there were a lot of issues back the years, that were built during the Celtic tiger years. In regard to regeneration, dereliction and the significant cost, I had a meeting with our own management team just yesterday in the local authority. In taking these on, it all sounds good but there is a huge cost to the local authority, particularly from a legal point of view. Is there any talk of compensating local authorities for the high legal costs they have in dealing with dereliction and those sorts of issues?
Mr. David Dalton:
No. I will be honest with the Chair; there is no consideration at the moment. From the Department's perspective, local authorities are legally responsible for managing and maintaining their stock. In regard to those vacant properties and any obligations that arise, they will fall squarely on local authorities. That said, we are providing a very significant contribution to local authorities for the remediation of that stock. If you look at the adopted budgets from 2025, they raised around €611 million in rental income, yet they only reinvested, or had planned to reinvest, €477 million back in their housing stock. We are contributing €260 million. That shows the scale of the investment that is coming from the Department to support local authorities.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Going back to my own local authority, we have done a huge amount on housing. We have brought our void houses back down to probably one of the lowest percentages in the country but at a significantly high cost of over €5 million, yet we only see roughly €11,500 per house for retrofitting.
You will not retrofit or upgrade a house for €11,000. You would not do a room in a house for that any more. The Department needs to look at the figures.
Mr. David Dalton:
It is an average of €11,000. Not every property needs €11,000. Some will need far less, some will definitely need more. That is why it is an average. Again, it is only a contribution. It is not meant to meet the full cost. The Department has been very clear on that, as has the Minister. The position is as it is for the time being.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Is it a contribution?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We will let them make a comment in a few minutes if they wish.
With regard to Limerick, age-friendly housing was referenced by Senator McCarthy, particularly the need to right-size. How does Limerick City and County Council provide that housing? Does it right-size people down from three-bedroom houses?
Dr. Pat Daly:
It is a pairing service. We work with Age Friendly Ireland. We have an age-friendly team, which works with our housing colleagues and, indeed, others in the HSE on the design principles to decide what way it will work. We then have age-friendliness designed into certain schemes, be they apartments or bungalow housing, in locations where there is a need. We put an expression of interest call out, and depending on the volume and type, we are able to assess it and construct a response to it. We also have the wraparound service. Where we have done it, it has been very successful. It is a key programme of our age-friendly group, which knows the needs and works from an evidence base. The first one or two were slow because people were nervous about what it would mean for them, the location and leaving their homes for a new place at an older age, but it is now working well. That story has transferred. The HSE and others have care packages around that. There has been a general response. I will certainly follow up with the Cathaoirleach and give him more details.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. Daly. I will not use up my own time. Members want to come back in and I am going to give them that opportunity. We will conclude at 5.15 p.m. for our private session. I will give each member four minutes.
Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
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Jumping back in quickly there on the discussion between Mr. Dalton and my colleague, Deputy McAuliffe, it was very interesting and I am glad to hear that, in the work the Department is doing to prepare the new regeneration strategy, it will be recommending an interagency approach. It is obvious to us in Limerick that, while the funding across the three different pillars covered a broad range of different projects, they were each critical to the successful regeneration of the areas. In particular, I would argue that the CCTV programme that we have in Limerick is one of the most important elements of regeneration. We heard Deputy Quinlivan and Senator Byrne talk about the levels of deprivation in Limerick. Sometimes, I think one really has to live in Limerick to appreciate the impact that poverty has on the whole of the community. It is palpable around us, and there is a whole-of-community desire in Limerick to support people living in areas of severe deprivation. We have four of the five areas of highest deprivation in the country. We also have the sixth.
The CCTV project gives an assurance of safety to people living in those areas that they would not have otherwise. I have a community in my village of Castleconnell that, although on a much smaller scale, is seeing similar antisocial behaviour, low-level drug dealing, criminality, car windows being broken, and older people intimidated while going to visit a graveyard, yet I cannot get a CCTV camera for that area because there is a question mark over whether we are going to continue to see the funding for the 400 - yes, I know it is a lot - cameras that we require. CCTV is an essential tool for gardaí in Limerick. I have raised this with the Ministers, Deputies O'Callaghan and Browne. Whatever the outcome, one Department or another will have to take responsibility for this. We cannot have a cliff edge of funding for the vital work being done in that area. It is housed in one of the regeneration areas. There is great pride in that area that the people are playing their part in looking after and bringing safety to the community.
I want to ask about affordable housing and mixed tenures within regeneration areas because there is a demand from some people who moved out of those areas who would like to return and buy a home or do cost rental. What are the plans for cost rental in particular? Jumping straight to the chase, my sense of it is that cost rental has been particularly difficult to make work from an affordability perspective for the local authorities. I question whether, within the overall budget for the Department of housing, we should be diverting that line to other areas in order to support greater mixed tenure within communities and facilitate access to housing for people who are outside of the social housing net.
Mr. Declan White:
In Moyross, especially with the opening of the Knockalisheen Road, making the financials work is now possible. We are working with our colleagues in housing on the processing of an application for an affordable housing part of our schemes. In that regard, we have recently appointed a design team to work on, for example, College Avenue in Moyross, opposite the Moyross Community Enterprise Centre. That will be a scheme of a minimum of 93 units, 25 of which will be social, with the balance being either cost rental or affordable. That design work is ongoing. I would say that a planning application will be submitted on that in quarter 2 of next year. In relation to Pineview Gardens, which is another scheme we are bringing through the design process, we will be lodging a Part 8 planning application in August or September of this year. That is a scheme of 112 units, with 30% to 40% social. This is all because we can make the financials work now in the Moyross area. The opening up of Moyross will bring benefits and confidence. Private investment is also coming into Moyross by way of the UPMC hospital and so on, which certainly makes it easier for the financials to work.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I cannot understand why four-bedroom and one-bedroom properties are not being included in regeneration projects and sections. I cannot get my head around how these are being passed over by the Department and Cork City Council. I am not sure about Limerick City and County Council. There should be four-bedroom and one-bedroom properties in every development and universal design.
In relation to Knocknaheeny north west regeneration, Ascension Heights and Baker's Road should have been included.
The Department got it wrong on density. Areas where we are doing regeneration have huge issues around social issues, criminal activity and what have you. Knocking 430 houses to build 654 and increasing density is the wrong thing to do. The Department should go away and reconsider that.
Regarding boarded-up houses, Mr. Dalton told the Chair that the Department gave approximately €11,500 to local authorities to get vacant, boarded-up houses back up, but the National Oversight and Audit Commission, NOAC, says it costs more than €30,000 on average to return a property to use. The Minister made it clear in here and in the Dáil when I asked him that he would not give the money. It is very unfair on local authorities, especially local authorities that are strapped for cash,to come up with the balance. Those houses lie boarded up for years. There are gangs, antisocial behaviour, dumping, and rats in the environment. Local authorities do not have the money. The Minister, Deputy Browne, is doing a Pontius Pilate and washing his hands of it. He does not give a damn about these communities.
Mr. Dalton made a comment about throwing money away when it came to getting boarded-up houses back out because of planning and maintenance. I am not sure if that is his personal opinion or if that is what the Minister is telling him, but if that is the attitude and strategy of the Department, it is absolutely shocking and shows its complete lack of understanding.
I come from Knocknaheeny. My wife comes from Knocknaheeny. It is over 50 years old. Any houses there require substantial maintenance because none has been done for 30 or 40 years. That is not Cork City Council's fault. It is the fault of governments that never gave any money. I live on Cathedral Road where I bought a house. They were social houses. They are over 80 years old. How is Cork City Council supposed to fund a house on Cathedral Road that is over 80 years old and has had no planned maintenance or preventative maintenance done in that time? At the same time, Cork City Council has to pay Cork County Council millions in funds that it does not have. What suffers then? It is housing maintenance.
We have people in Killala Gardens, on Kilmore Road, Dunmore Gardens, Glentrasna, Mayfield and huge areas across Cork who cannot get housing maintenance done because Cork City Council does not have the money. I will give a few facts. When Phil Hogan was the Minister, and he was no great Minister, the block grant was €1.3 billion in the budget. In the last budget that grant was less than €700 million, meaning it has halved in 17 years. That goes back to a point the Cork City Council officials might come in on, which is that the council is using money it is getting from rents to do public lighting, parks and playgrounds. I have a lot of asks for the chief executive and the assistant chief executive, and we will be going back and forth, but I realise the constraints on their budgets. The Department has to deliver funding for them. I would like a short reply on how hard the council is finding it to do housing maintenance and keep Cork city the way it should be. The second city in this State not being funded-----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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If you want to get a reply we must go to it now.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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He said "throwing money at it".
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry. "Throwing money at it" then.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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There is a similarity to it, would you accept that?
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, I accept that.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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That is fair.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will just say, I do not think it is throwing money at it. This is housing maintenance that is vital.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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If you want a reply, please let Mr. Dalton reply.
Mr. David Dalton:
Thank you. The points the Deputy made on density and regeneration we will take back and consider as part of the new policy. I am not sure what we can do in that space but we will engage with colleagues in the Department on the planning side.
Ultimately it comes down to choice. There is €611 million in the adopted budgets from 2025 from housing and €477 million of that was reinvested in housing. That is a very significant amount of funding generated from social rental housing that is 100% funded by the State going out of the housing system. The Housing Commission, which Deputies Gould and Ó Broin have continuously lauded, highlighted that very specific fact. We cannot keep losing that money out of the system. It has to go back into housing. The approach we are taking to try to move away from reactive void maintenance and to try to put in place planned maintenance approaches where local authorities invest more and more of their rental income is the right way to go, the right direction of travel and we are going to continue down that path.
There is definitely a problem with the properties that are harder to reach and have been boarded up for longer. There are definitely social homes that have been long vacant, derelict and practically obsolete at this stage in some or all local authorities. We are doing an audit of all the void properties this year to see what the profile is, the extent of the challenge and what can be done thereafter.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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All right, thank you. We move to Deputy Quinlivan.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry but could Cork City Council make a short comment?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It will be 30 seconds and no more because I want to bring in Deputy Quinlivan and Senator Harmon, and we have a private session meeting we need to finish by 5.30 p.m. There are 30 seconds if the Cork City Council officials want to give a quick comment.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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About housing maintenance and the cost of it.
Mr. Brian Geaney:
I have just two comments. It shows the success of regeneration in Knocknaheeny when the Deputy is looking for Ascension Heights and Baker's Road to be included. On housing maintenance, everyone will obviously want more money for maintenance and it is a struggle every year in terms of the adoption of the revenue budget. That is why we are totally reviewing our delivery of housing maintenance and that model. We will be coming back to our elected members shortly with the outcomes of that because we have an ageing stock that needs regeneration. We fully acknowledge it is a challenge and one we are going to have to meet head on going forward, when it comes to the type and the amount of money that is going into houses in Cork city.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I will come back in on a couple of issues. The regeneration programme came to Limerick and things were done, but the Department is now trying to untangle itself from some of it. For instance, we are left with the legacy of the CCTV and those 400 cameras. They do not just cover the regeneration areas but the whole city and county. It gives succour and security to people, not just in the regeneration areas. The Department of housing might say it is not its responsibility to fund it going forward, and there is an argument for that, but some Government Department has to intervene. It has to be the Department of justice with the officials' Department, or the Department of justice with maybe even the Department of Social Protection or the Department of rural and community development. There has to be some intervention to secure that camera room in Moyross. I encourage the committee to go and see that because members will be overwhelmed by what they see there and how it really works. It provides employment through CE schemes to people in some of the most deprived areas of the city.
I also want us to look at some way of - this is a Government policy - keeping community leaders in their areas. I am talking about people who are doing really well, are role models for young kids, have come out of third level and have got a good job. However, they cannot be on the housing list, cannot get a mortgage and cannot buy or stay in their area because of the social limits or the rent or whatever. Deputy Gould spoke about four-bedroomed and one-bedroomed houses. We should also make sure that future projects are disability proofed to ensure an additional number of facilities for people with disabilities.
I will mention some of the other projects and maybe the officials from Limerick City and County Council can come back to me on them. For instance, where are we at with the community centre in St. Mary's Park? It is 15 years into the project and people do not even know if it is going ahead. There was very good movement about a year ago but that seems to have stalled again. Our Lady of Lourdes has a fantastic early childcare facility with a waiting list of 214 people in one of the most deprived areas in the State. We need to look at the wins we have. We have a really good early childhood facility but we have 214 people who cannot access it because it is full.
Returning to voids, there has to be a change in policy. I have raised this with the Minister, Deputy Browne, and his predecessors. The average of €11,000 does not cut the mustard. The local authorities are being abandoned to leave these houses vacant. They are not just vacant houses because they get boarded up, and there ends up being rubbish, rats and antisocial behaviour. This is not fair on the tenants on either side. The people on either side might be local authority tenants or they might have bought the home and their houses are being damaged because we cannot get the voids turned back into homes people can live in.
My final question for the Limerick City and County Council officials is whether they will review the cap in the regeneration areas, even temporarily, so we can address social exclusion.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Department sit down and bang heads with other Departments on the CCTV? We have this project, we have people working there who are depending on their jobs and there are also the people of Limerick. It is saving the Department of justice huge sums because more gardaí would be needed if we did not have those cameras. There has to be some common sense about how we fund these going forward. It cannot be left to the local authority.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry but on the CCTV, Mr. Dalton made the point it had been discussed with the Department but I am asking him to continue those discussions.
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Department withdrawn from that?
Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I did not suggest that. What I said was that the Department initiated it in Limerick.
Mr. David Dalton:
We have funded it for the guts of 12 or 13 years to the tune of €9 million. It is a service and function used solely by An Garda Síochána, and it is appropriate that it is funded by An Garda Síochána and the Department of Justice in the first instance. That is the position of the Department.
On the one-bedroom and the four-bedroom units, I agree with Deputies Gould and Quinlivan on the need for one-bedroom units. Single adult households make up the vast majority of our social housing waiting lists. We will be pushing that very strongly as part of the new housing delivery action plans and the housing targets with local authorities. Similarly, on older persons' housing, there will be specific targets required of local authorities to deliver housing for older persons, persons with disabilities, care leavers and other priority groups.
Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I have a few questions for the representatives from Cork City Council. I commend the council on the progress being made. I have attended many briefings in Cork providing updates on housing. I know the council is leading progress on affordable housing.
I have a number of questions, and I will put them all in together. It is welcome that progress is being made on Noonan Road. I understand that 200 units are expected to go in there. Will one of the council's representatives comment on the challenges the council faced and why it has taken so long to get to this point? Did it need support from central government? Clashduv Road and Cherry Tree Road were mentioned as well. I would like clarity on whether there is a clear timeline in relation to those projects.
Are there particular supports the council would like from central government in relation to staffing, tackling vacancy and dereliction, and housing maintenance? Are there specific calls that Cork City Council wants central government to hear today, not just from it but from councils across the country?
I am proud of the Labour Party councillors on Cork City Council. We do not vote against budgets to provide for housing and we have not voted against Part 8 proposals either, in my memory. It is important that people are working together to tackle the issue of housing. When we are approving new housing, does the council identify particular areas around infrastructure where there is more support needed, particularly in relation to roads, water and public lighting?
My final question is on a separate matter. During Leaders' Questions today in the Dáil, the Taoiseach was asked about the Bessborough site and whether the Government could intervene in relation to it. He stated: "In my view, the local authority should have purchased the site compulsorily a number of years ago." Does the council want to comment on the Taoiseach's comments about the city council in relation to that particular site? I know it is separate matter and there is an ongoing appeal, which is due before 9 July.
Mr. Brian Geaney:
I thank the Senator. She is obviously familiar with Noonan Road. We have 80% of Noonan Road currently decanted and it was necessary to decant and find better quality housing for that local community after intensive engagement over the past couple of years. The first blocks are going to be demolished in the coming weeks, and a major relocation is under way, particularly with homeowners. There are homeowners, and sometimes it takes that little bit longer to get residents moved into accommodation. We will launch the tendering process over the next couple of months. We are going to see real progress on the ground over the next number of weeks.
In respect of Clashduv Road and Cherrytree Road, we are engaging with the local community and the local area committee members on carrying out surveys and the works that will be required. The Senator asked if the council has any calls. We very much welcome the Department's statement that the national regeneration programme is about to be opened up to new projects. As I mentioned earlier, we have a number of projects in Cork that we will be making applications for.
On infrastructure, there are a number of key infrastructure projects in Cork that are being actively worked on, such as the northern distributor road, and a number of active travel projects that we are delivering at scale.
The section 38 variation that is under way will be considered at our July council meeting. There will be key infrastructure asks around that. We were also with the housing activation office recently in terms of asks. We were disappointed with the number of projects approved for Cork city. Just two projects were approved, one for the Land Development Agency and one project at Togher. While they will all activate houses, we had a number of other proposals that we had advanced, so it is fair to say that we were disappointed with the outcome.
With regard to Bessborough, it would be unfair of us to comment because there is one application that is in a live planning process with a decision due, and there is another application that is pending. It would not be proper for the executive to express a view on the comments made earlier today because we are considering the planning application.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Does Senator Byrne want to ask a final question? She has 30 seconds.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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We spoke about the Colbert Quarter and how that should regenerate the area back up into Ballinacurra Weston. Will one of the representatives from Limerick City and County Council comment about the regeneration going over towards Mugler Street and Carey's Road? That area is tied in with it.
My last point is on the waiting lists at Our Lady of Lourdes community centre. I reiterate that the housing and redeveloped community centre, both for older people and young people, are necessary because so many people are on the waiting list for both services.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Did the Senator get answers on all of the projects she asked about?
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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I referred to waiting lists for older people and young people at Our Lady of Lourdes community centre. The project before the Department includes 120 housing units. Will one of the witnesses make a comment about that?
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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It is about the waiting lists for childcare and the older persons services. There is huge pressure for both to be extended and redeveloped because there are so many people. It is key because there are so many issues going on there with young people and older people. It really is key.
Ms Fiona McCormack:
We are working very closely with Our Lady of Lourdes community centre. As my colleague, Mr. McCarthy, mentioned, that plan is with the Department in terms of the waiting lists and for the early years service, in particular, and the housing involved in the scheme and the 120 units overall.
Maria Byrne (Fine Gael)
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That is great. I thank Ms McCormack.
Thomas Gould (Cork North-Central, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Geaney mentioned applications going in for other projects. Will the regeneration of Mayfield and Blackpool be included in those applications? If they are not, I ask Cork City Council to reconsider that.
The Solas buildings have been a great success. It a project where older people downsize. I would love to see the council come forward with more projects like that. There is a fierce waiting list. It is a great initiative and that is the kind of stuff that we want to see for older people who want to downsize so that they can be kept in the community.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank everybody, including the representatives from the Department, Cork City Council, and Limerick City and County Council for coming today. I propose that we consider our other business in private session. Is that agreed? Agreed.