Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I welcome everyone to our public session. I have to read some formal notices concerning privilege. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the place in which Parliament has chosen to sit, namely Leinster House, in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting.

P00085/25 relates to equality for parenting standards in Ireland around benefits with Mr. Shane Cusack. Before we start, I want to explain some of the limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses with regard to references witnesses may make other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Before we hear from our witness, I propose that we publish his opening statement on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. On behalf of the committee I extend a warm welcome to the witness, Mr. Shane Cusack, our petitioner. He will have ten minutes to read out his statement. We will then have a chance for questions and answers. How long that takes will depend on how many members have questions. I call Mr. Cusack.

Mr. Shane Cusack:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and committee members for inviting me to appear before them today regarding my petition.

It relates to equality in parenting standards in Ireland, particularly in relation to benefits. I submitted this petition because I believe the current child benefit system does not reflect the reality of modern parenting arrangements and does not treat parents equally where caring responsibilities are shared.

From my perspective, the issue is relatively straightforward. Under the current arrangements, where a child lives between two households following parental separation, child benefit is generally paid to the parent with whom the child resides most of the time. However, where a child spends an equal or close to equal amount of time with both parents, child benefit is, by default, paid to the mother. Currently, legislation does not provide for the payment to be shared equally between parents.

My petition, on which I want to be clear, is not about taking support away from mothers. It is about recognising that fathers can be, and in many cases are, primary carers and active participants in the day-to-day raising of their children. Irish society has changed significantly over the past couple of decades. Fathers today are far more involved in childcare, education, healthcare appointments, school activities, emotional support and the general responsibilities associated with parenting.

Many separated parents operate shared care arrangements where both households incur substantial and ongoing costs in providing for their children, yet the current child benefit scheme operates on assumptions that originated in a very different era, when mothers were more likely to be the sole or primary carers and often had limited independent income. Today, however, that has changed quite a bit. There are many fathers who have equal care agreements and arrangements and who often meet half of the costs associated with raising their children. Despite this, they still receive none of the child benefit payment, even in a care arrangement that is exactly equal. In practice, this can create a perception that one parent is being recognised by the State while the other is not.

The current position of the Department of Social Protection is that, in equal custody arrangements, child benefit is awarded to the mother. Current legislation does not permit the payment to be split. The Minister has recently confirmed this position in answers to parliamentary questions, links to which I included in my initial submission. I respectfully submit that this approach is inconsistent with the principle of equality between parents. My request to the committee is modest and practical. I ask that the Government examine legislative reform that would allow child benefit to be divided equally between parents where there is a genuine shared care arrangement, where both parents have equal parental responsibility, where the child spends a substantially equal amount of time in both households and where both incur the costs of raising the child. Such a change would not diminish support for children. It would seek to recognise the reality that, in shared parenting arrangements, two homes are often being maintained for the benefit of the child or children. I also believe such a reform would send an important message that the State recognises parenting as a shared responsibility and that neither parent should automatically be viewed as the primary parent based solely on gender.

The petition seeks fairness, equality and recognition of modern parenting arrangements. It asks that public policy evolve in line with societal change, ensuring that support systems reflect the realities faced by separated families. I thank the committee for considering this issue and for providing me with the opportunity to present my concerns. I look forward to answering any questions Members may have.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Cusack. I will now open the discussion to members if they have any questions or wish to obtain further information. After Mr. Cusack gives further evidence, we will suspend for a couple of minutes and hear from officials from the Department of Social Protection to obtain their perspective. I have some questions of my own but we will hear from members first.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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I thank Mr. Cusack for dialling in, giving us this evidence and presenting the petition to the committee. It raises a really important consideration in the context of the diversity of families and family units in Ireland, equality of treatment under the law and how our public administration system recognises equality across different types of families.

Mr. Cusack's opening statement was very good, and the submission he made was also very good in outlining part of the problem. Based on Mr. Cusack's personal experience and the cases of people he has spoken to, how are parents who may not be getting child benefit affected? What experiences are parents having when they do not receive the payment and the other parent does? What are the cost pressures and difficulties that come with that? It would be interesting to hear Mr. Cusack's perspective.

Mr. Shane Cusack:

To be quite honest, the Deputy has hit the nail on the head with some of those questions. There is obviously a perceived inequality between parents. There is also the cost-of-living crisis. The overall cost of raising children is constantly increasing. There is a lack of recognition for the work that one parent might do compared with the other. It is creating a perceived inequality in terms of recognition by the State, whereby one parent is seen as the recognised primary caregiver, a term I do not like, and the other is not acknowledged. Even without getting into the financial side, there is massive pressure around back-to-school costs, school trips and even just getting children to and from school. Fuel costs have gone up, as we are all probably well aware.

Anything that can help in this regard and can be shared equally to meet the needs of the children is really what we are looking for. The perception is that the current set-up is not especially fair. I speak to a lot of other people in similar situations. I do not want to make this a gender issue, but particularly from the male side, there is a view that the required recognition is not evident. This could apply to anybody, regardless of gender, but from the male perspective it seems there is an issue with State recognition of the financial contribution, or the issue of child benefit not being paid out, which causes a discrepancy in family income and has a direct or indirect impact on the children in question.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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That is really helpful. It is good that Mr. Cusack recognises that there are different types of family units. Gender is a very important component of how we address inequality in our society, but sometimes there are specific instances where there may actually be an inequality affecting the male partner. There may also be two male partners or two female partners. There is diversity within our family units, and our law and our public administration should reflect that. I thank Mr. Cusack so much for his testimony on that.

The other question is on the concept of the primary caregiver. I was speaking to a family whose mother works full-time and very long hours and whose father is the primary caregiver to the point that the mother tells the children to go to their primary caregiver. She says that is the person they need to get the information or approval from. What is the financial experience of men who take on the role of primary caregiver, especially in the case of a separation?

Mr. Shane Cusack:

Let me double-check the question. Is the Deputy referring to cases where the primary caregiver is of the male gender?

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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Yes. In the case of a male person, what do things tend to look like in the context we are talking about, where he is not getting the child benefit payment but is the primary caregiver? I would love to hear a little more testimony on that.

Mr. Shane Cusack:

From my experience, and the experience of others I have spoken to, when there is a breakdown of the family unit and a move from one household to two households, or another arrangement, costs increase quite significantly while the responsibilities of the caregiver remain. As I said, that includes getting children to school. In my case, transport costs increased because I am no longer in the same location as I was in previously. While my income is relatively stable, my expenses are increasing.

As a result, although I try to minimise it as much as possible, there has been a negative impact on some activities the children would potentially have taken part in. Were the child benefit to be shared or appropriated between the two parties, as the Department saw fit, it would alleviate some of the additional costs and strain on families and give more fairness. At the end of the day, this is mainly for the children, realistically. That is the whole aim: to provide them with transport to school, activities or after-school, to go to meet friends or get to the park. Some people are lucky to live near a lot of these amenities, which may be within walking distance, and that is great, but it is not the situation for everyone. I particularly focus on rural Ireland, where people might be a few kilometres away from their local park, school, activities or whatever it may be. I am only picking one topic, the increased cost of fuel, as an example. I could go into the cost of food and so on, but I am sure the committee is well aware of the issues facing society at the moment. Putting that aside as it is a conversation for a different day, being able to plug the gap or to go some way to closing the gap in financial resources and help people to be able to give these opportunities back to their children is something child benefit could do.

I am not sure it is gender specific because the overall issues facing families are gender neutral. The issues apply. The parent who is receiving it is in a privileged position, whereas if it were shared, there would be more equality. It would be more equitable and just. It would give a better opportunity for everyone to be able to take part in the different activities. It could be as mundane as going to the local park at the weekend. Often, I have found myself in the situation of not having the price of fuel to take the children places. It is only 10 km but I have still come across it from time to time, especially at the end of the month when there is just not enough income.

Eoin Hayes (Dublin Bay South, Social Democrats)
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Yes, that makes sense to me. An important point Mr. Cusack raised is the question of child benefit as a payment being geared primarily towards supporting the child and servicing the costs of the child. If the costs are distributed in some way, principally, we want to make sure the payments are going where the costs are borne, regardless of gender or family make-up.

They were all my questions. I thank Mr. Cusack for his testimony. I appreciate it.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome Mr. Cusack to the meeting and thank him for his presentation. We all know how important child benefit is for families. Has Mr. Cusack, or anyone who shares his views, put any proposals to the Department of Social Protection about possible changes to the administration of the child benefit scheme or, to his knowledge, have any advocacy groups or other representative organisations done any research or put forward a view to the Department about the possibility of changing the existing governance arrangements?

Mr. Shane Cusack:

I am not in a position to speak on behalf of any advocacy groups. I am not representing them so I cannot give any information about them. I am sure many may have done so, but it was not in line or conjunction with anything I have done.

In relation to my situation and from speaking to parents in similar situations, parents have gone down different avenues with the Department. The current legislation does not really allow it to be changed, from my understanding. It would take a change to the legislation to change the way the payments are currently distributed. That is why the petition was opened with a view to trying to get it changed. That is the road I have gone down, but I have engaged with the Department and I am well aware of what the current scenario is. Personally, I am not in a position to change legislation.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise, I missed that as there was an interruption. Did Mr. Cusack say he did not make representations or a submission to the Department of Social Protection, which is the line Department for this issue? Did I pick that up correctly?

Mr. Shane Cusack:

I apologise. I have engaged with the Department on a number of occasions. In the communication I have had with the Department, it outlined the position that the current legislation does not allow for any transfer or change to the distribution of the payment. While I have engaged with the Department, the current legislation is not something I or the Department can change. Therefore, the current channels for distribution remain as they are currently. That is why I am looking at the petition as a way to propose the change.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Cusack. Did the Department indicate whether it was doing any research or whether it was open to the consideration of a different arrangement? I know that, if the Department makes a decision to change, legislation will need to go through the Houses. We all appreciate that. Did the Department indicate it was doing any work on this?

Mr. Shane Cusack:

I will be quite honest. The level of communication I got back from the Department was relatively personal to my situation. I did not get a wider briefing about any work that might be going on behind the scenes, so it is not something I am aware of.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Some members of the committee are Senators and they have been called to the Chamber for a vote. That is why they are not here, but they will get a chance to catch up and may be here for the meeting with Department officials.

I have a few questions. Mine are more personal to you, Mr. Cusack. You said you corresponded with the Department about your situation. As a co-parent, can you describe to the committee how this makes you feel? Does it feel like a lack of recognition of your parenting? I do not want to put words in your mouth. Will you describe the attitude of the State, or the law - perhaps not necessarily the State - and the impact it has on you as a parent?

Mr. Shane Cusack:

I will not say we are there yet by any means, but in my lifetime - I was born in the 1980s - society has been moving towards equality and inclusion across the spectrum of life, and from this perspective, particularly in parenting. That is gladly welcome. A lot has been done. There is definitely a bit more to do. This is one of the key areas where there is a massive gap. There is not equal recognition. It is upsetting. From a State or Department perspective - whatever way you might want to layer it - there is a lack of feeling of being recognised for the work we do. Many parents probably feel that, but it is the lack of perception of being treated equally for the equal work we are doing. That is just from a status perspective.

The other side is probably more fundamental. One could be said to be a personal feeling. I am not saying it is not valid, but we can get around it. It also removes the ability to fulfil the role as an equal parent or co-parent. Parenting is not all about financial issues, but if people cannot make ends meet, there is an issue. That is my experience, particularly at the end of the month when all the expenses have been paid. I could go for a week or two being tight on money. The child benefit is a nice payment, and it will not be life-changing but it would go a long way to helping to fill the gaps, especially when it comes to children. It is not the only thing, but it is one of the main driving factors for parents.

For any parent involved in their children's lives, it is one of the main reasons they get up in the morning. Obviously, they have obligations in work as well but it is to be there for their children, get them to school, weekends, activities, home for homework and cooking the dinner. As much as we would love to pretend finances do not play a part in that, not having that financial support in many cases causes issues. It has in my personal life and that of many other parents, in particular from a male perspective, but I am sure it is across the board. It has an impact on them. It is a status piece in one sense or a lack of recognition of status. There is also a much more tangible feeling or lack of a tangible feeling, if that makes sense, to the current discrepancy.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that. It makes complete sense. I bring you back to the evidence you gave us. You referred in your statement to genuine shared care. This is an issue I have raised myself on the floor of the Dáil. It is sometimes difficult to establish what is a genuine shared care arrangement. In your opinion, do genuine shared care - 50-50 arrangements for all expenses, minding and looking after - exist in the sense of an agreement between those involved? How can that be demonstrated? The Department will be in next. When we are talking to them, what do we say to them about how a parent could effectively demonstrate that 50-50 shared care?

Mr. Shane Cusack:

It is complicated, I will be honest. The complication comes back to similar discussions that have probably happened in different parts of Oireachtas. From my perspective there are family court orders in place, etc.; I will not go into any details. There are legal documents that could be shared to show this is the arrangement. The challenge is the vast majority, if not all, family court issues come with in camera protection. That might need to be looked at. If there is a genuine court order in place, could it be shared with the Department and should it be shared, conscious of many other complications and confidentiality? I would not look to share the entire thing. There could be many other issues in front of the family court, which is a separate issue for a separate day. If it came down to the care arrangement only, I would look at that. Courts and other organisations could be involved in some of these cases. At the end of the day, that would be something where the court would have an idea, in particular if it is a separation. If there are issues whereby, God forbid, care arrangements are not happening correctly, the court could be involved. That is a separate thing. If there is a genuine bona fide court arrangement in place where it is 50-50, 60-40 or whatever way people are sharing - not everybody will do it 50-50 for different reasons; some people might do two months on, two months off - there should be some documentation from a court perspective that should be able demonstrate that, notwithstanding issues around confidentiality. That would need to be looked at as well as regards how that could be demonstrated. That is from my perspective the fairest way. It is an independent body that has oversight and has probably made those arrangements. It is probably the cleanest way. Otherwise, you could be showing documents, etc., but it is very tricky via documents alone to show you were up for the 2 o'clock feed or collected the kids on a rainy Sunday. That is very hard to show. I am not saying it is not important and it does not happen. Of course it does, but if you are looking for a demonstration thereof, it can be quite tricky. The court would probably be my starting point.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Without recourse to the court, there is a facility for a primary caregiver to be established. It might be possible to do it even outside of that, by agreement. We can ask the Department about that.

I have a final question, because this has been put back to me when I have raised this issue. There are studies, not Irish but in Britain, that show that when the child benefit is paid to the father versus being paid to the mother, and I do not mean this in a disparaging way - I am saying it because it is likely to be said to us so I would like to hear your reaction - more of the money gets spent on the children when it goes to the mother than when it goes to the father. I am not suggesting that is an argument that persuades me one way or the other. It is something that has been pointed out to me when I have raised this issue previously. I would like to hear if you have anything to say to us in that regard.

Mr. Shane Cusack:

There are two points to that. First, and I think I am familiar with the study, I would definitely question which advocacy group or what target was publishing or behind that report. If it is the same report I have seen, it is not necessarily, shall we say, coming from a 50-50 perspective. I would take that with a pinch of salt. Advocacy groups, with respect, often advocate for the members they represent. That is absolutely fine, but consideration needs to be given to where reports are coming from. That is just from the wider perspective.

From my perspective, I would very much be against that. I can only speak for my own case and perhaps my close counterparts I am aware of. I am conscious I represent, at least from my immediate connections, a very small proportion of Ireland, although I still think we probably represent a fair proportion of Ireland. I would very much be against that point because, as a shared primary caregiver or - I do not know what term to use exactly - a shared equal custody parent, I have been there from day one, helping the kids with school, homework, activities they need to go to, their basic needs, food, etc. There have been times when we have had to cut back a little bit more than I would like. That is simply down to the fact that, in some cases, you could be talking about a hundred quid at the end of the month. I do not want to get into the whole wider financial piece because that is a separate topic.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Your point is well made in relation to your own experience as opposed to a study. I mentioned the study only because I want to prepare for it potentially being mentioned to us so that we at least have a response from you. I thank you for that.

Do members have any other concluding remarks or questions? There are no further questions. We will hear from the Department of Social Protection next.

Mr. Cusack, thank you very much for being with us this evening. We have had a very beneficial discussion. It is good for the committee to have heard your perspective. We will now hear from the Department. We will suspend the meeting for five minutes to allow our witnesses to take their seats. Thank you very much, Mr. Cusack, and good evening.

Mr. Shane Cusack:

Thank you.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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We will continue our engagement on petition No. P00085/25 relating to equality for parenting standards in Ireland around benefits. From the Department of Social Protection I welcome Mr. Niall Egan, assistant secretary general with responsibility for working age policy, and Ms. Jackie Harrington, principal officer in family care policy.

Before we start, I want to explain some of the limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses with regard to references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Before we hear from our witnesses, I propose that we publish their opening statements on the committee's website. Is that agreed? Agreed. Our witnesses are very welcome. I believe Mr. Egan is going to deliver the opening statement, and then we will have time for questions and answers afterwards. I thank him very much for being here.

Mr. Niall Egan:

I am an assistant secretary with responsibility for working age policy, including child benefit, in the Department of Social Protection. My colleague, Jackie Harrington, is the principal officer with responsibility for child benefit policy.

I thank the committee for the opportunity to attend today to discuss equality for parenting standards in Ireland around benefits as it relates to the child benefit payment. Child benefit is a universal monthly payment to families with children up to the age of 16 years. The payment continues to be paid in respect of children until their 19th birthday where they are in full-time education or have a disability. It is paid to over 680,000 recipients in respect of almost 1.3 million children. Expenditure in 2026 is estimated at €2.2 billion. There are no PRSI conditions, and the payment is not means-tested or taxable. It is paid at a rate of €140 per month per child, with higher rates for twins and other multiple births. As a universal payment, child benefit assists parents with the costs associated with raising children and contributes towards alleviating child poverty. Title to the payment was previously vested in the child's father, and this was the position when the scheme commenced in 1944, and only in cases where the father had three or more children. The policy to pay child benefit to the child’s mother was originally introduced three decades later, in 1974, in the context of the children’s allowance scheme and continued when children's allowance was replaced by child benefit in 1986.

Under section 220 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, child benefit is payable to the person with whom a qualified child normally resides. Regulations governing normal residence for child benefit purposes are contained in article 159 of SI 142, the Social Welfare (Consolidated Claims, Payments and Control) Regulations 2007, which provide for the following. First, in the event that a qualified child is resident with both mother and father, he or she will be regarded as normally residing with the mother. Second, if the mother and father are resident in separate households, the qualified child shall be regarded as normally residing with the person with whom he or she resides for the majority of the time. Where children are resident for an equal amount of time with both parents, the children’s mother is deemed to be the qualified person for the purpose of receiving child benefit. It is important to note that fathers may have an entitlement to child benefit in cases where the qualified child spends the majority of the time with them. The payment is currently made to some 10,700 men.

There are a number of reasons for the payment of child benefit to the mother of the child in the first instance. Various international studies have found that, on average, when the child benefit payment is made to the mother, it results in more money being spent on the child than when it is paid to the father. For example, an article published in the International Tax and Public Finance journal in 2017 found that more money is spent on food when the mother is in control of child benefits compared with when it is jointly controlled. Similarly, researchers found that when the United Kingdom replaced the family allowance payment to the father with a children's allowance payment to the mother, it resulted in greater spending on children's clothing. In a 2016 study, Family Financial Management and Individual Deprivation, on how income sharing within households might impact family poverty, the ESRI found that, for low-income households where poverty is a risk, additional resources are normally spent by mothers in the interests of their children. The same paper, using the 2010 survey on income and living conditions, SILC, by the CSO, found that 28% of women received income solely from child benefit. In addition, Safe Ireland, a network of 37 independent member organisations, has pointed out that domestic violence, which is overwhelmingly experienced by women, often includes economic abuse and that control of household income can be one of the ways in which this type of abuse manifests itself. Many argue that directing the child benefit payment to the mother can help mitigate the impact of this kind of abuse.

The Department is obliged to follow the legislative enactments with respect to the payment of child benefit. Legislation does not provide for splitting the payment between parents. In split custody arrangements, it would be extremely challenging to split the payment proportionately on a case-by-case basis. In the first instance, both parties would need to agree to either halving the payment or agreeing the proportion of child benefit to be allocated, which could be difficult to achieve after a relationship breakdown. The agreed proportion would also be open to challenge if the child varied the time spent with a particular parent around school holidays or other occasions, or if the child was hospitalised. There are other wider considerations from a social inclusion perspective. Child benefit plays an important role in lifting households above the poverty line, and splitting the payment might dilute this positive effect. Finally, it is worth noting that the revised child maintenance guidelines, recently published by the Department of justice, provide for the consideration of child benefit in the calculation of maintenance payments. Any changes to the long-established payment arrangements for child benefit would be complex and require careful consideration so as to avoid unintended consequences. There are a range of stakeholder organisations which would have particular views on the process. In this regard, we noted and welcomed that the committee was considering further hearings in relation to this issue.

My colleague and I look forward to hearing the committee’s views, and we are happy to assist with any questions members may have.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Egan and Ms Harrington for being here this evening. This is a complex issue. Child benefit is a very important payment for families. We know from representations made to us how important it is for many families that these payments are made.

As we discussed with our witness earlier, we all recognise that family structures and family arrangements have changed considerably over the last number of decades. Mr. Egan mentioned in his statement that he provided that it was welcome that this committee would engage with a number of stakeholder organisations on this issue. Has the Department been engaging with stakeholders and different advocacy groups? Is this an issue that arises in the forums held annually by the Department in the context of forthcoming budgets? I understand that these forums are held. Has this issue been raised by different representative organisations or advocacy groups?

Mr. Egan also mentioned in his statement that, "It is important to note that fathers may have an entitlement to child benefit in cases where the qualified child spends the majority of the time with them", and that the payment is currently made to almost 11,000 men. Is there a particular delineation or threshold for that decision to be made, or, by and large, would this be an agreement reached between both parents on who would receive the payment? I fully understand this is a very difficult area, particularly when this payment is so important to the families and for the children in particular.

Mr. Niall Egan:

I thank the Deputy. He is absolutely right and well informed. My Department has a huge and proud tradition of engaging with a wide range of stakeholders.

Indeed tomorrow, my colleagues and I and the Minister will be hosting the pre-budget forum where we will be meeting with the community and voluntary groups discussing their budget priorities. We also have the social inclusion forum and we have a regular quarterly engagement with the community and voluntary pillar as well.

I have to be honest. In terms of the engagements we have had, this issue regarding those particular groups has not arisen, or at least not in any great numbers, over many years. That is not to say that it might not have been raised on the margins. We have done a lot of work with the National Women's Council, Single Parents Acting and Reaching for Knowledge, One Family and Treoir, so we are very familiar with family break-up situations in terms of the policy impacts but this issue has not arisen. It has not formed the basis of a formal-----

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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It has not-----

Mr. Niall Egan:

Not formally in terms of a budget submission?

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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Did Mr. Egan say it had or had not?

Mr. Niall Egan:

Apologies, it has not in terms of a formal budget submission. That said, there are difficult cases and representations can be made by those organisations on an individual basis about a particular circumstance, so they would have happened but not in terms of the question about a budget change or a legislative change. That has not happened.

The issue of the 10,700 fathers covers a range of scenarios. They are not all fathers in these circumstances. In the case of all those fathers, the child would be primarily resident with the father who might, unfortunately, be a widower. It might not necessarily reflect a relationship breakdown. In the unfortunate circumstances where a relationship does break down, it is very difficult to see the rationale or to assess the case. What normally happens is that the Department would seek evidence from both parents to see where the child is predominantly residing and it is up to both parents if they are both seeking claims for child benefit because we can only pay to one parent. We would then obviously ask for whatever evidence they can produce. We then might ask a social welfare inspector to assess both households and make a judgment call about where we believe the child is primarily residing, but largely it is very much on a case-by-case basis.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Egan for his response. I came across a case recently where the child was spending more time with the mother now than before and the father was in receipt of child benefit. I contacted the Department, which was extremely helpful in changing the payment and did not send us around the world. It was done very expeditiously and in a very helpful manner by Mr. Egan's colleagues in the child benefit section. I want to record that. The Cathaoirleach will have to excuse me because I am supposed to be chairing a parliamentary party meeting at 7 p.m. so excuse me if I have to leave.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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My apologies for being late - we were voting in the Seanad - but I did hear the presentation up in the office before I came down. However, I did not hear the petitioner. This has come across my desk in terms of relationship breakdown and the challenges around that. Mr Egan mentioned some reports that were done suggesting that if the payment is made to the woman and the mother, she is more likely to spend it on the child. Is that right? A number of studies have been done on that. Have there been any studies with the counter point of view?

Mr. Niall Egan:

I am not aware of a study that proves the opposite. That is not to say it does not exist. It might well exist. The two of which we are aware are from 2017 and 2016 - one by the ESRI and the other by the International Tax and Public Finance journal, but I am not aware of any others. There may be others.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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How many of the 10,700 fathers who have that payment make up the family break-up, as it were?

Mr. Niall Egan:

We do not maintain those figures.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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In this day and age, it seems unfair that the father cannot get some of the payment. Mr. Egan is saying that the Department concluded that it would be very complex. How is it so complex? Could Mr. Egan give us an idea of why it is so complex?

Mr. Niall Egan:

Unfortunately in these situations, we are talking about relationship breakdown. It is just an unfortunate scenario and it is more likely in those situations that both parents are less likely to reach agreement on certain issues. In terms of custody arrangements, there is significant fluidity in these situations so it is not the case that a relationship breaks down and the child is always going to be with one parent. That is not realistic. What actually happens is the child moves between two parents. Our legislation is based on where the child is primarily residing. If it is on a shared basis, that can change such as during holidays or the hospitalisation of a parent or child. It can change significantly or, unfortunately, there could be a further deterioration in that relationship. At each point then, you are asking to revisit the split with regard to child benefit, and with the numbers we are talking about, that could be very significant in terms of being able to manage that. In addition, you are then in a situation where you are asking both parents to prove repeatedly where the child is primarily residing and it becomes increasingly difficult in that scenario for everyone involved.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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If the father has 51%, does that mean the father gets the full payment? Up to 50%, it is the mother and after that then it could switch. Is that right?

Mr. Niall Egan:

That is correct.

Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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From what I am hearing, it seems that the debate is not about mothers versus fathers. It is about whether the system - public policy - has adapted or can cope with changing what has always been. When I was growing up, my parents were separated and my mother traditionally got the children's allowance. I am wondering whether we have moved. Has the pace moved in society but basically the systems have not moved with that? Mr. Egan is saying that splitting the payment would be difficult from an administrative point of view. Has the Department actually modelled how many families would qualify? I know Mr. Egan mentioned the figure of about 10,000 or something. Is it an assumption or is it based on evidence?

Mr. Niall Egan:

That figure of 10,700 relates to the number of fathers who are currently in receipt of child benefit. We do not have information. We do not record information about relationship breakdowns so, unfortunately, I cannot tell the Senator this evening how many of those 10,700 are due to family breakdown and that the father has primary care. There are indeed cases there but we do not capture that information.

Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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This petition is very specific. What does this represent in numbers nationally?

Mr. Niall Egan:

It is very hard to know that without definitive data. We know that it is not going to be a huge majority of cases. Most cases in terms of child benefit are very clear and it is paid to the mother. Essentially, in 1.6% of cases, it is paid to the father and essentially within that is a subset of these cases. What I do not know, and I do not think anyone has this information, is how many fathers would have 50-50 shared custody. We do not have that information so I do not know what that quantum is.

Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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Before we rule out any reform, is it worth doing a pilot scheme to see how it works for families with genuine equal sharing of care? Is there something that could be examined just to see whether it works?

Mr. Niall Egan:

In theory, yes, but pilots get complex when talking about primary legislation because individual rights are involved. It is very difficult to create a legislative landscape where you could pilot both scenarios in accordance with our existing legislation. We have to follow the legislation we have. As Deputy Smith said in terms of child benefit, the unit in Letterkenny operates in accordance with the legislation. To do a pilot, I am not sure how we would create an environment that would still be consistent with the legislation. I know that sounds like a typically bureaucratic answer and I do not mean it to be that way, but it is genuinely difficult. Maybe the way to do this would be through extra research into the issue to see the quantum or the scale.

Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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If we knew what figure we were dealing with-----

Mr. Niall Egan:

Exactly. That is the starting point.

Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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Even the Department has done research to show that child benefit reduces child poverty, but there is no specific evidence regarding whether paying it all to one parent makes a difference.

Mr. Niall Egan:

Exactly. We do, however, have the ESRI report, which shows that mothers are more likely to use child benefit to pay for necessities. There are two research articles that we have. What is also interesting in the ESRI report is that, within the study, and based on the 2010 SILC, child benefit was the sole income source for nearly 30% of women in the survey sample.

Child benefit is paid for the child. It is a child-centred payment. It is not for the parent. We pay it to a parent on behalf of a child. It is important, from our social inclusion and policy perspective of tackling child poverty, that we pay the money for children's purposes. When the legislation was originally introduced in 1944, it was originally paid to fathers. We amended that over time, over three decades, to pay it to mothers. It has been 50 years since then, and I fully accept the point the Senator is making that family situations have changed. However, the vast majority of payments are still made to mothers. We do have the mechanism to pay fathers, but on foot of our legislation, that applies where a child primarily resides with the father.

Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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It would be good to have the numbers but does the Department see a trend? Are there many appeals or complaints to the Department regarding shared care and equal shared care arrangements? Is there an increase?

Mr. Niall Egan:

We get an average of about five queries a week about this issue. Some of those might be repeat queries.

Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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It is helpful to know.

Mr. Niall Egan:

That is the only quantum we have in relation to this. How many of those ultimately result in, say, a father receiving child benefit, I cannot tell the Senator. My apologies.

David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I thank our guests. I am sure the petitioner has all the right reasons in the world for making this petition, but it is very hard to legislate for.

Our guests have answered one of the questions. Children's allowance is not for a parent; children's allowance is for the child. That is what it was from the very first day, in 1944. It was a payment made to the family for the child.

Mr. Cusack is probably one of the lucky people in that, although his relationship has broken down, he and his former partner seem to be on friendly terms and are trying to do their best. In our offices, we all hear about the chaotic relationships where parents – husband and wife – have separated. The wife may be getting the money or the husband may be getting it. I have encountered cases of uncles and aunts rearing the children, with the children's allowance going to the mother or the father. Since the parents live a chaotic lifestyle, the children do not see any of it. We all hear about these cases in our offices and know about them.

We could change the law. Are we coming full circle? When the payment was set up, it was paid to the father. It was long before our time, but we knew that when a relationship broke down, the woman in the house had nowhere to go, had no financial means and was stuck there. Thankfully, society moved on and gave women a chance to move. Now we may be coming full circle in seeking to give the payment to the father.

My concern is that if we change the arrangement and everything works well for six months, nine months or a year before breaking down, one parent may come back and say such a thing is happening and that they need the arrangement reversed. It could lead to a constant turning of the wheel, with the payment moving from one parent to the other and back again. I understand where Mr. Cusack is coming from and he is lucky, but we need to be very careful. No matter which parent gets the children's allowance, it is for the child. If the parents are trying to do their best for the child, it does not matter which of them gets it and spends it on the child.

On splitting the payment, even on the 50:50 basis that was mentioned, I cannot see the benefit. It is supposed to go to the child. We could get into a major rigmarole where the rule is changed, everything works well for a year or two years and then a breakdown occurs. One parent may then say they need the payment on the basis that the other has gone off and is taking half the money. We need to be very careful. It is an emotive subject. There is no point in saying it is not. All we want is what is best for the child.

We know there are children falling through the cracks in respect of the children's allowance. In our offices, we all hear of cases where, because people have chaotic lifestyles, the money is not getting to the child. We know this from the story. I understand where Mr. Cusack is coming from and I can see his point but I would say that the number of separated couples with children who are in the position Mr. Cusack and his former partner are in is on the low side. More often, there is fighting between parents. We just need to be careful.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Deputy.

David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I do not believe I asked a question.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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That was a useful contribution.

I have some questions that I will ask, and then I will allow another round. Senator Andrews has indicated that he wishes to contribute.

The important point, which you made very well, Mr. Egan, is that this money is for the children. It is important, therefore, that it goes to where the children are, which might be with the mam but which also might be with the father. As it stands, does the State, or specifically the Department of Social Protection, have any capacity under existing law to recognise a genuine co-parenting arrangement? I am not talking about 51:49, but 50:50. I completely understand that there are not a huge number of genuine co-parenting arrangements. However, I have constituents, friends and family members who co-parent, but I know of a very small number where I would be comfortable and confident saying here this evening that the arrangement is strictly 50:50. As the law stands, is there any scope for the Department to recognise that?

Mr. Niall Egan:

The law is very clear here. The answer to the question is that where the child resides determines the outcome in the vast majority of cases. If the parents live in separate households, the payment goes to the parent with whom the child resides for the majority of the time. In circumstances where there is shared custody and a genuine 50:50 relationship, as the Cathaoirleach described it, the law provides that the payment goes to the mother.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. It is probably worth noting for the committee that you referred to some studies. Some of those are disputed by others, which is fine because they are just studies or information.

However, none of those were available in 1974. They did not inform any thinking in 1974 when the decision was made to give children's allowance to the mother. I understand all of those reasons and my now deceased mother, if she were listening to this, would have something to say because she was very vocal on this in terms of it being an issue of feminism. I do not want to cross over on that but things move on and the composition of families has changed. The manner in which people parent has changed, even compared with when I was starting off parenting a million years ago. It is different now. There is a gap there and it is not possible to recognise those - albeit in small numbers - who are in genuine co-parenting arrangements where you cannot say the child resides with one parent or another because they have that very tight custody arrangement.

I have friends who do the transfer on a Wednesday. He will drop the children to school, she will collect them or vice versaand it is straight down the middle, a 50-50 split. They have arrangements and that is not for consideration today, but I also recognise that is not always the norm. There is a gap there if we are moving more towards those co-parenting and shared parenting arrangements. I think when you get into 60-40, 70-30 and 90-10 splits, where it is some days this, some days that and some weeks this, there needs to be a decision taken. For there to be a primary person, I suppose the Department can establish that with the inspectors when the parents cannot agree, but when the inspectors come across a straightforward, genuine 50-50 situation, they resort to the legislation. The legislation would have to change in order for any progress to be made on that. Is there anywhere in the world that recognises co-parenting in the way that has been described by our petitioner here this evening?

Mr. Niall Egan:

Forgive me as I did not hear the petitioner's full evidence. In terms of a situation like that, we know that Norway has an arrangement where the child benefit payment can be split, but it has to be an agreement of both parents.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. That is just a-----

Mr. Niall Egan:

There are different arrangements in different jurisdictions but that is probably the most similar to the circumstance we are speaking about this evening.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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I know child benefit does not exist everywhere either and we are looking at a niche group there. As it stands, is it the case that co-parenting in its purest form cannot be recognised within the social welfare code, or not for the purposes of the child benefit, anyway?

Mr. Niall Egan:

Not in the case of that 50-50 basis for the purposes of child benefit. Obviously, we recognise it from other angles-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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No, I understand that. I was asking specifically about child benefit.

Mr. Niall Egan:

-----such as parental benefit and maternity benefit but not in the circumstances the Cathaoirleach has outlined. The legislation requires a decision to be made. In a 50-50 case, it goes to the mother.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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That is okay. Thank you.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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As Deputy Maxwell said, the issue comes across our desks now and again. Currently, there is one individual whose relationship has broken up. The father was awarded the payment because he was just over 50% but not a lot over 50%. The mother was quite chaotic at the time. It is still going backwards and forwards. The sense I get is that where it is, it is very difficult for the father to get that 51% or 55% or 60%. Is that something specific to this case or would people say that happens quite a bit? The sense I get is that it is very difficult for the father to get a payment. Are the qualifications for the father and the mother the same? It feels like it is more difficult for the father to get a payment and time, even when the mother is living through quite a chaotic time in her life.

Ms Jackie Harrington:

I can come in on that. There is a process that is followed with child benefit. For example, if the payment was being paid to the mother and the father then makes an application to the Department that says his residence is the primary residence of the children, the Department will then write to the mother who is in receipt of the benefit and advise a third party application has been made in respect of the payment. The payment is then suspended and is not paid to the mother. We ask her to provide information to contradict or prove otherwise because we stop her claim. There is an onus then on both parties to provide the information. In some cases, we get very differing accounts. As my colleague Mr. Egan has said, sometimes we ultimately have to resort to asking a spy to go to visit. On the different information we could get, we might get a court order that sets out the situation.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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So this would be where some of the pieces of documentation contradict the story?

Ms Jackie Harrington:

It would if either party was saying something that contradicted each other. The type of proof or the type of information we require includes whether there is a court order or if there is information from the school or GP as to who is the primary carer in terms of contacting the parent. The Department then has to make a decision as to the evidence that is provided before it. The law provides for the mother so we have to be satisfied, based on the information provided.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Harrington.

Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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The law already recognises the equal parenting responsibilities in many areas, such as the courts and where the where the care should go. It basically allows parents to co-share and the system works well for that. How come the child benefit system cannot be amended? Even as Deputy Maxwell said, if it changes, it should be flexible enough to change. It seems that it is very rigid and I am just wondering if there is flexibility in the system to allow it to change.

Mr. Niall Egan:

While I appreciate the Senator thinks the legislation is rigid, it is only rigid in the case of a genuine 50-50 case that the Cathaoirleach has spoken about. In that circumstance, the legislation is rigid but in all other circumstances, to quote Senator Andrews's case, if that parent has evidence that substantiates that the child is predominantly and primarily resident with them, the legislation moves the payment for the child to that parent because that child is primarily residing with them. It is flexible in that context but I acknowledge that, in the 50-50 genuine case, it goes to the mother. That is the system.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Currently.

Mr. Niall Egan:

That is correct.

Aubrey McCarthy (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Egan.

David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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If it is 51% or 52% to one parent, there is that flexibility. Does Mr. Egan notice or does the Department have figures where it changes? Let us say the mother has the payment and she is 53% so the mother gets it and it changes to the father and then it goes back. Does it happen that there is a cycle that goes back and forth constantly?

Mr. Niall Egan:

It happens in situations where relationships are fraught and difficult. It can happen. It might be, as some of the evidence has been given, that one parent might go through a particularly difficult episode. It can happen but I do not want to overemphasise and say it is a huge volume of people.

David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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It is a small number of people.

Mr. Niall Egan:

Usually it is a sign of fraught, difficult relationships.

David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I will finish on this. I have had a couple of cases where the aunts and uncles have stepped in because the parents - I do not want to say which parent - have a chaotic lifestyle so the aunts and uncles, brothers or sisters of the parent have the children.

The parent gets the full children's allowance and it might be for two children. Because of their chaotic lifestyle, not one euro of that goes to the children. Is there an option for an aunt or uncle to collect it? I take it that would be through the courts and there is that option. Is that there?

Mr. Niall Egan:

It is, provided that the Department is satisfied, because to satisfy the legislation, we need to be satisfied that the child is primarily residing with the aunt or uncle in that example. We would seek the evidence, similar to the answer I gave to Senator Andrews's question. We need to be provided with the evidence and the payment will then be switched.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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On that 50% figure, is that set in stone? Is that absolutely rigid? Are there any cases where there will be a little bit of flexibility? If the mother had 49% responsibility or 48%, would she still get the full payment? Are there any circumstances at all or exceptions where the mother would get the payment, despite having less than 50%?

Mr. Niall Egan:

I am not aware that the Department has made a formal decision on a claim knowing the child is not primarily resident with the mother in that case for more than 50% of the time. I am not aware of any circumstances to that effect. According to the legislation, that case should not happen. It may be possible that the evidence that is provided from the mother compared with that of the father in a fraught situation is more solid and the mother has more evidence so we have made a decision based on what we believe has been presented to us. That is possible. The actual on-the-ground practice may be that the child resides one day more with the father.

As my colleague Ms Harrington briefed the committee, the process is still available to the father. It is not time bound or time limited. They can revisit, collect more evidence and make another application to the Department. We will review that. That is the system that shows there is a process there for that. We are conscious that, in family situations, things rarely stay exactly stable, particularly in scenarios we have spoken about this evening. They can be very difficult for all parties. We are conscious of that. Generally, we want the money to go where the child is.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you. I have one last question to round this out. It is only fair if we go through all of the scenarios. We have mentioned scenarios where there might be a relationship breakdown or there might be people living chaotic lifestyles, but the vast majority of people who separate are just living their lives and that is not a factor. They are simply two people who no longer wish to be together but want to co-parent. In the scenario where there is a child of a male same-sex couple, the legislation says the mother. Is there a mechanism for defining that for that couple? I know this is speculative, Mr. Egan, and you are quite entitled to consider this and write to us. I do not want to bounce you into an answer because I imagine it is quite niche and it very rarely if ever happens. In the scenario where we are talking about relationship breakdown in a same-sex couple, how does the money stay with the child? Where it is explicitly a 50-50 split - I know there are not a million co-parenting arrangements that are 50-50 splits but they do exist - does the legislation say mother or is there another definition within the legislation that would assist the Department in making that decision?

Mr. Niall Egan:

In a situation where same-sex relationships breakdown, if it is two men, we will pay the child benefit to one of those men, irrespective of the child birth, provided that the child is primarily residing in that household. That is our guiding principle. In a situation where that same-sex male couple split, it is the same process we go through about where the child is primarily residing. We ask both parents to make a case to us about providing the evidence and we will make a decision on that basis. There is a list in terms of hierarchy and the legislation. Father is on that list but mother is ahead of the father. That is why in that genuine 50-50 split case we spoke about earlier, it will stay with the mother. We would make a call on the same-sex couple on the exact same basis as if it was a heterosexual couple. We would ask for evidence from both parents and would make a call about where we believe the child is primarily residing.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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But where it is a very strict 50-50 case, what happens in that scenario? If it is an opposite sex couple and there is that 50-50 split, I can see what happens where it is explicitly a 50-50 split. That is what we are talking about in this petition because, although it is rare, it is possible there is an absolutely 50-50 split case. In that scenario, the legislation means the Department defaults to the mother where there is a strict 50-50 split. It might be possible that the scenario I am talking about has not arisen, but where it has, there are two parents but there is not a mother and father necessarily. How is that handled?

Mr. Niall Egan:

In that context, we would be blind to the gender and we would ask for the evidence. I know for the basis of the petition. We are following where the child is primarily resident. In a 50-50 case where there is a mother, it will go to the mother. In this scenario where there are two men, the issue there is we would have to make a decision but it would not be an easy decision. If both parents have huge amounts of evidence on that basis, that would be a difficult decision.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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Has that arisen?

Mr. Niall Egan:

I will have to come back to the Cathaoirleach on that.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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As I said, I did not wish to bounce you into anything because it was one that just occurred to me. If possible, you might correspond with us on that.

Mr. Niall Egan:

We will come back to the committee on that scenario.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal West, Sinn Fein)
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If there is experience there, that might be informative for us in our deliberations. I will stress, as Mr. Egan has and other committee members have, the purpose of this is to ensure the money goes to the child in the most efficient and best vehicle possible. We understand that and that is what we are seeking to do. Obviously, we want to interrogate the issue around the petition and see where the constraints are, what the possibilities are and we will look at campaign groups and other international evidence ourselves.

That concludes our discussion for this evening. I sincerely thank Mr. Egan and Ms Harrington for coming in to speak to us this evening. It has been very beneficial and very informative. We will be following up. We will now suspend the meeting for a few minutes to allow the witnesses to leave.