Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 28 May 2026
Public Accounts Committee
Competition and Consumer Protection Commission – Financial Statements 2024
2:00 am
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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This morning, we will engage with the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, to examine its financial statements for 2024. On behalf of the committee, I welcome officials from the commission: Mr. Brian McHugh, chairperson; Ms Úna Butler, commission member; Mr. Geoffrey Gray, commission member; Ms Emily Barry, director of corporate services; and Mr. Enda Duffy, head of finance. We are also joined by officials from the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment, who are attending in a representative capacity: Mr. Colm Forde, assistant secretary general, and Ms Renée O’Reilly, principal officer. We are also joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Ms Colette Drinan, secretary and director of audit, representing the Comptroller and Auditor General, who is a permanent witness to the committee; and Mr. Mark Brady, deputy director of audit. They are all very welcome here this morning.
Before we begin, I wish to explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references made to other persons in evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present, or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts, is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they may say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name, or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity.
I invite Ms Drinan to make an opening statement on behalf of the Comptroller and Auditor General.
Ms Colette Drinan:
I thank the Chair. The CCPC was established in 2014 through the amalgamation of the Competition Authority and the National Consumer Agency. The commission’s principal statutory function is to promote compliance with, and to enforce, competition and consumer protection laws. It has specific responsibilities in respect of certain sectors, including the grocery sector, financial services, cross-border shopping and, more recently, digital and data markets. It also provides policy advice to the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment in respect of market competitiveness.
The commission’s financial statements record total income of €30 million in 2024. Of this, €22.7 million was in the form of grants from Vote 32, Enterprise, Tourism and Employment. Just under €4.5 million, or 15% of the commission’s income in 2024, was derived from an annual levy on financial services firms regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland.
In addition, the commission received application fees totalling €1.3 million for the issuing of broker licences, merger fees, fixed payment notices and some costs awarded by the courts. However, these receipts are transferred in full to Vote 32, Enterprise, Tourism and Employment and are not available for use by the commission.
The commission’s total expenditure during 2024 was €29.5 million, 62% of which related to staff costs. The commission’s operational expenses amounted to €11.1 million in 2024, an increase of 23% from 2023. Expenditure on marketing, promotion and consumer awareness activities was €3.4 million, up 29% year on year, while expenditure on call service centres totalled €1.4 million, up 73%. Spending on legal fees totalled just under €1.3 million in 2024, an increase from €402,000 in 2023.
The 2024 financial statements of the commission were certified on 31 October 2025 and received a clear audit opinion. I thank the committee.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the chairperson, Mr. McHugh, to deliver the opening statement on behalf of the CCPC. As set out in the letter of invitation, he has five minutes in which to do so.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee. We welcome the opportunity to appear before the committee to discuss the CCPC’s financial statements for 2024.
The CCPC is the statutory body responsible for enforcing and promoting compliance with competition, consumer protection and product safety law. We also have important and expanding roles in relation to digital markets and data.
The CCPC was established under the Competition and Consumer Protection Act 2014, which sets out our role and powers. It was formed through the amalgamation of two agencies, the National Consumer Agency and the Competition Authority. This brought under one roof the consumer regimes of consumer enforcement, product safety, consumer information, financial education and consumer advocacy, and the competition regimes of cartels, antitrust, mergers and competition advocacy.
The decision to establish the commission acknowledged the important synergies between competition and consumer protection. It also delivered significant corporate efficiencies. The same commissioner structure used in the Competition Authority was tasked with overseeing the combined agency.
The amalgamation has been a real success and we continue to see powerful benefits from the combination of consumer and competition functions. In the more than a decade since we were established, our functions, powers and mandate have expanded significantly. Examples include acting as the national co-ordinator for the EU Data Act; new supervision and enforcement responsibilities under the Digital Services Act, DSA; a new administrative adjudication regime for breaches of competition law; responsibility for the European Consumer Centre; enhanced surveillance powers for investigating serious breaches of competition law; responsibilities for products under the EU Accessibility Act; and new powers under the Artificial Intelligence Act, including powers to address safety risks associated with products using artificial intelligence.
We understand that further responsibilities may be assigned to the CCPC in the coming months. While some of these new functions strengthen our competition and consumer powers, a number of them expand our mandate into new areas, which brings additional challenges.
When the CCPC was first established, the commission consisted of one chairperson and four commission members overseeing 75 staff working across nine specialist divisions. Our expanded mandate has required the addition of multiple new divisions over the past decade. Our sanctioned headcount has grown to 275 posts and we have seen our overall budget increase from €12.5 million to €35.8 million, although we note that the commission received no significant additional Exchequer funding in 2026. While the increase in resources is welcome, real pressure remains in managing the expanding mandate. In particular, we note that all of the new functions have been added without significant changes to the most senior management structure. We welcome recent positive engagement with the Department. Addressing this matter remains the most urgent priority for the commission in managing our risks.
I mentioned already that the creation of the CCPC has been a success, and our work in recent years highlights this. This includes uncovering cartel activity that harms taxpayers.
In December, following a CCPC investigation, five school transport operators were found guilty of rigging bids in a public tender competition. We have opened investigations into suspected breaches of competition law in multiple sectors. They include household electric appliances, healthcare software, port services and betting. We have successfully blocked the sale of a car park near Dublin Airport to DAA due to serious competition concerns. Today, thanks to our decision, consumers parking at the airport have more choice and lower prices. We have prosecuted several major retailers for breaches of consumer law, including Boots, Brown Thomas, Tesco, Lifestyle Sports, DID Electrical and Rathwood, and most recently we prosecuted Quills Woollen Market in Kerry for misleading consumers, mostly tourists, by mislabelling products as being made in Ireland. We have prevented over 276,000 unsafe products from reaching the Irish market in 2025, including the recall of over 10,000 unsafe baby soothers.
As well as specific cases, we have published a high-level review of our impact in competition and consumer interventions. This peer-reviewed analysis showed that for every €1 spent on the CCPC, it gives a consumer benefit of €21. The commission is governed by a commission structure which consists of a chairperson and, currently, three members, all of whom are appointed by the Minister for Enterprise, Tourism and Employment. The chairperson and members form a collegiate decision-making commission for statutory decisions in addition to having whole-time executive responsibilities.
While the funding model of the CCPC has become more complex since 2024, there is a strong system of internal financial controls and effective governance arrangements in place including a robust risk management framework, internal audit function and oversight by its audit and risk committee, ARC. The commission has well-established external accountability and reporting responsibilities with the Oireachtas and the Department.
Looking to the future, we welcome the proposed consumer protection, competition and enforcement Bill 2026, which is set to include new powers for the CCPC to screen public tender data for signs of bid-rigging. Cartels can increase prices by 20% to 30%. With the State committing €275 billion of public capital investment over the next ten years under the national development plan, it is essential the commission has access to public tender data so we can protect the public purse from cartels. The Bill will also enable the CCPC to impose more impactful financial sanctions for breaches of consumer law. This will allow us to impose fines that reflect the seriousness of the breach and act as a more effective deterrent.
In terms of identifying and advocating for change in markets to boost Ireland’s competitiveness and improve consumers’ lives, we have recently looked at the taxi sector, home-buying and the legal sectors. We pledge to continue that work.
Promoting competitive markets and protecting consumers go hand-in-hand. The CCPC will continue to engage constructively to ensure appropriate structures are in place to manage our expanded functions and maintain an efficient and well-governed organisation. As chairperson, I am hugely proud of the CCPC’s team, its work and the positive impact it has on Irish businesses and consumers.
We look forward to our engagement with the committee and we are happy to answer any questions.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. McHugh for that. We will suspend the meeting at about 12 noon for about ten or 15 minutes for a short break and then resume.
I will open the floor up to members. Our first speaker is not present yet so I will open it up to our second speaker, Deputy Neville, who has ten minutes. All other members have ten minutes. When our lead speaker comes in, they will get the normal 15 minutes. On conclusion of all of that, and if time permits, we will allow members back in for a short supplementary round of questioning.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today. I will ask questions but if I interrupt, it is not because I am being rude; it is because I want to move on through topics. I am conscious of my time.
The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission representatives were asked to come in here, as some colleagues proposed, in view of the price increases for oil. That is what really got attention. What is the view on the pricing that happened when oil prices increased? Did the commission see evidence of cartels at work that was increasing the price? Mr. McHugh has used that word quite a lot.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We have published a report on our view of what happened on the back of the fuel increases we all saw in March. We also received over 1,000 complaints, so it is a really key issue for consumers. Our conclusion in the report, briefly, was that we did not see evidence of significant competition issues in the market. The prices and the real pain consumers suffered and are suffering from was driven by the increase in wholesale prices.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Were there complaints made about prices increased over the weekend where stocks might have been held already? Did the CCPC actually look at individual companies or outlets and where the prices might have changed? Was there no evidence at all where there might have been a mark-up in prices?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
A number of years ago we looked at individual companies. We took a huge data set to look at hourly price changes across thousands of companies. That concluded at the time that there were not significant increases in profits, for example. When we look hour by hour and day by day, we do see certain issues but, generally, we did not see big problems. This year we decided to do much quicker analysis given the urgency of the situation. We looked at the market at a broader level to do it more quickly. Our conclusion was that we did not see significant problems. That is not to say that in individual cases, there may not have been issues. We never say any market is perfectly clean and does not have any cartels. Cartels are secret. However, generally, this market is performing reasonably well.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Where prices went up online, it was quite transparent. We all saw evidence, especially with the home heating oil, where prices went up over a weekend. Did the CCPC not see any issue there?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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In general, what is Mr. McHugh's view on dynamic pricing and how it is impacting areas like hotels and concert tickets?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Dynamic pricing is used in multiple markets, for example, hotels and flights. It serves a purpose. It can lead to a more efficient market. Our view is that it must be absolutely clear in terms of the information consumers get on how the prices are set and what the price is before they pay for any product or any service. That, for us, is the key issue. Trying to intervene in terms of dynamic pricing to tell particular industries exactly how to price can have unintended consequences. We are quite cautious in terms of interventions.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What consequences? For generations of people, they went in knowing a ticket for a concert was €100. It might be different for seated versus standing. People are now clicking into a site and the price can escalate quite quickly from what the guide price was. The ranges have become obscene.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Surely the CCPC cannot say it is happy with that situation and that it is giving clarity to the consumer, because I do not see any clarity in that.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is what I said not exactly what happens?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Who is the commission investigating?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is fine. I am not asking for Mr. McHugh to talk specifically about Oasis.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Generally, in ticketing we have made a submission on the Digital Fairness Act, which is a broadly European Act around consumer law and how it might be improved. We think there are issues around some events such as transparency and making sure the consumer journey is a fair and reasonable one, meaning consumers have the appropriate information and the right information before they make decisions.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Ultimately, consumers are hunting down and are brought to a cusp with prices in front of them. They are under internal pressure or there is pressure around them to buy a ticket. That does not seem fair because they have entered into something half an hour before and have been waiting with an idea of a price and are presented with something else. That is not transparent and it is not right.
Mr. Colm Forde:
Mr. McHugh mentioned the Digital Fairness Act, which is upcoming from the European Commission. That will be launched during the Irish Presidency of the EU Council. We are hosting a consumer summit in Dublin on 19 November where we expect that Act to be launched. That is under the remit of the Commissioner, Michael McGrath and he has indicated that he wants to address the issue of dynamic pricing for tickets publicly.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Does that mean that exact issue I have been talking about, with someone being brought to the cusp with a price in mind and then being presented with a different price?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Forde. Is the CCPC conscious of any other anticompetitive practices online outside of the ticket space by large distributors?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We have a number of ongoing investigations into a variety of markets. Like all markets, some elements are online. Again, I will not say too much about the investigations we have ongoing. I have mentioned some in terms of the sectors around betting, ports, IT and healthcare. Some of them will touch on the online market. We are very much of the opinion that there are significant breaches of competition law occurring. Particularly in cartels, it can be very difficult to uncover them. They are secret by their nature. We have no doubt today that cartels exist in Ireland and consumers suffer significant harm.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What areas or industries does the CCPC have concerns about in relation to cartels? The officials have used that term quite a lot and it is concerning.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Cartels can occur in any market but the market we have mentioned today is public procurement. There is a huge amount being spent in public procurement. We know in those markets internationally a number of cartels in nearly all countries have been uncovered. What those countries had was a very different competition regime which has very recently been brought to Ireland which we really welcome. That means we now have leniency because we have the ability now in the CCPC to levy fines-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Mr. McHugh said public procurement. Can he be more specific?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is he talking about building and development?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Or medical?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is Mr. McHugh talking about any specific area where there is an industry where people have a specific skillset? It might only be the same five or six people competing in a specific area. The HSE, for example, may be looking for something from the same five or six bodies. It could be Irish Rail. Let us say that it is the same public bodies. Is that what Mr. McHugh is talking about? The same issue follows across the board.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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But different companies are at it.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is what I want to clarify.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
The recent conviction we had at the Central Criminal Court was around school bus transport. It is just one example where a jury convicted a number of parties of bid rigging in a public tender but we believe there are many other practices out there. You do not want to pick on any industry but you do see internationally huge cartels in the construction industry, for example. Where it has been a problem in other countries, it has been uncovered and punished and that is what we are looking to do.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Mr. McHugh said that the CCPC has stopped a lot of unsafe products coming in. Where are they primarily coming from?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Primarily, though, do we have location sources?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Would it be Europe, UK, China or America?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The likes of Temu and those-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I have one last question. I am conscious of time. The CCPC mentioned the taxi industry in its opening statement. It has advocated for Uber and Hailo to be used before. It has referenced the opportunity I suppose. What is Mr. McHugh’s view on the taxi industry and its current status?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
The taxi industry is not working for consumers. We have looked for ride hailing to be made available for the market to be opened up in Ireland. We do not care which company is successful. Irish people use those ride-hailing apps when they go abroad. They like them. Consumers enjoy that choice and it is not available in Ireland. Every time we have a meeting, we have international people arrive from the airport. They all ask why the ride-hailing app does not work in Ireland.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Thank you.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Everyone is very welcome. I will go back to price gouging and the cartels. The witnesses said there is no law in place at the moment and there will be something introduced. Is that correct?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
On the new laws that are coming, there are two key elements in the proposed legislation. One is around giving us access to public tender information so we can screen it for potential cartel activity. The second is around giving us the ability to levy fines for breaches of consumer law. That is something we currently have for competition law but we do not have for consumer law. Nearly all the retail cases I mentioned resulted in guilty pleas and a €1,000 contribution to charity. Some of these had a huge impact on consumers. We would like to see laws in place so that if someone does break the law, the punishment can fit the crime.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There is no law in place at the moment. The CCPC has never fined any hotels or anything for price gouging or increasing prices when a concert is on.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This new law will mean more enforcement then, or will it not?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If someone breaches the price increase, what will be the fine?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We would publish guidance, as we have done in competition, for how that would be calculated. Effectively the goal is that the fine should match whatever the breach of the law was. Where a huge amount of consumers suffered, and where the detriment that they suffered was significant, the fine would be proportionate to that.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. McHugh said there was a €1,000 fine.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is insignificant. It is not going to affect any of those companies because they are huge. I think Boots was mentioned as well as a few others. It is a laugh to think €1,000 will do anything. What will a typical fine be going forward under the new laws?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We have seen fines in other jurisdictions of tens of millions. They have to be proportionate. It will depend on the case. It will depend on the detriment cost to consumers. It would all be subject to appeal and due process. Rules will have to be followed. It would be proportionate to the harm that the consumer suffered.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Commissioner McGrath will introduce that new law in November. Is that correct?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is a different one.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. When is that happening? Do we know?
Mr. Colm Forde:
The Minister, Deputy Burke, intends to bring a memo to the Government before the summer break outlining the heads of Bill about how to address greater access to data which would enable the commission to screen for bid rigging and, equally, to be able to have consumer fines on a more proportionate scale. For example, the ability the commission has for breaches of competition law is equal to 10% of the company’s turnover or €10 million, whichever is greater. That gives a sense of the scale, which is obviously not comparable with a €1,000 contribution to charity.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Can someone tell me about the ECN+ directive? What is that? Is that already in place or are there no powers associated with it?
Ms Úna Butler:
The ECN+ directive was transposed in Ireland by the Competition (Amendment) Act 2022. It has been in force since 2023. It provides for those fines that Mr. McHugh and Mr. Forde have both mentioned for breaches of competition law. For breaches of competition law, the CCPC, through independent adjudication officers, can impose those fines of €10 million or 10% of turnover, whichever is the greater.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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But that is not happening.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How long has this organisation been established?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is not using that law or that legislation.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has it charged anybody or fined anybody?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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So this legislation has not been used to date.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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An awful lot of taxpayers' money seems to be going into this, but there have been no finds under this legislation. There is nothing that, as Mr. McHugh said, reflects what has actually happened. Fines of €1,000 are not reflective of the situation. We also have this ECN directive which went through the Houses in 2023 or 2024, and it has not been used either. Why did that happen?
Many constituents call me about the increase in their electricity bills. Do the witnesses deal with that at all?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
There is an energy regulator, the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, which is responsible for overseeing the electricity market. It recently published a report on competition in the electricity market, particularly around the concerns about increases in electricity bills. We have engaged with it about its report. The conclusion of that was that the market was working reasonably well with regard to competition. We looked at that and would agree with their conclusions. The electricity market works well for people who switch. There are questions-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. McHugh think it is fair that people have to switch to get the decrease in their electricity prices?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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This has been ongoing for as long as I know. Has anything happened in relation to that?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
A lot of work has been done in the electricity industry over the years to bring in competition and to have auctions, for example, which have been quite successful, but we are now committed to doing work to understand consumers' experience with switching or not switching. The Deputy asked if it is right and fair if people pay a certain price if they do not switch and whether that needs further analysis. We are committed to doing that.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is fantastic that the witnesses are committed, but why has something not happened already? This has been ongoing for years, which is my worry. My greater worry relates to data centres at the moment, and the increased costs that consumers are being charged due to data centres. A report was released today that says that in 2021, consumers had a 14% increase in their electricity bills because of data centres. In 2023, there was a 21% increase. That will continue to rise. Has the CCPC done a report about the energy drain of data centres and what additional amount consumers are being charged in their electricity bills because of data centres? Reports are good and well but I want to know where the reports are leading. Are they actually helping consumers?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Should this not be the CCPC's work?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
The CRU, which is the energy regulator, sets connection policies, for example, and certain charges that an industry like data centres would pay, so it would absolutely have the expertise. One of the things we have worked on and engaged with both relevant Ministers about is not to duplicate the work. We will focus on the switching experience of consumers in the market and whether that is working or not. As we always do, where we see a problem, we will look to make recommendations. Where we see that change can benefit consumers, we will make those recommendations, as we have done in the taxi market, where we think there are changes that can be made that will bring real benefit to consumers.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When I see "consumer protection", I automatically assume the commission is there to protect the consumer. If the consumer is paying all these excessive charges for electricity because of data centres, I believe the commission has a part to play in ensuring that does not happen, because it is not fair on the consumer.
Is there any competition or consumer law relating to production of food, farmers, and their costs?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What was that?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What were they? Do the witnesses remember off-hand?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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At the moment, are there any cuts to beef output in Ireland?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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And there was nothing related to Mercosur?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being here today. As previous speakers said, one reason we wanted to speak to the commission is the issue of fuel prices. We were also interested, in the context of our discussion with the Corporate Enforcement Authority, of the structure of the commission. I might ask a number of questions regarding that. They are really for our report on those hearings as opposed to being specifically about the witnesses. The witnesses have a three-person commission with a chairperson. When they are making decisions about which areas to investigate or about proceeding with investigations, are those made individually by each commissioner or are they made collectively as a commission?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
The commission has the chair and three members, so there are four on the commission. Decisions to open investigations are delegated below the commission level. We do not get involved in that level of detail in all circumstances, so there is quite a lot of delegation. We do empower our staff. We have a role in making decisions on certain steps of investigations, for example, to prosecute. We have a role, as the investigation progresses and where teams want to discuss prioritisation, where the commission would be involved in those discussions.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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So the witnesses are responding to the delegated responsibility that they have applied to the staff in the commission?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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If there is a significant public interest around a certain industry or area, is that something the commission would recommend to the staff? I am using the word commission interchangeably, but Mr. McHugh knows the point I am making.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
There would be quite an open conversation within the organisation. If there is a big public issue, the team will know about it too, and there may well be a discussion on some form of intervention. I should add, to be clear, that each member also oversees certain divisions, so they would be closer to those conversations.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There is a clear responsibility within an organisational chart.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a director of legal, for example?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There are what you might call HR or operational decisions about pay, staffing and so on. Do those come to the commission?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
No. We follow the public and Civil Service guidance on pay and conditions. We do not set any-----
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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What of the appointment of particular individuals or the creation or deletion of particular posts within the organisation?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We have a strategic workforce plan, which is a three-year plan which is signed off by the commission. We also then have annual plans. As the Deputy describes, if there is a budget it is a question of what posts should be sanctioned or prioritised and what changes should be made. While the chair, under the legislation, has a role in running the organisation and its staff, the commission will always be part of those discussions about staffing.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McHugh consults the commission rather than a senior management team.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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That is a useful comparison. We might come back to Mr. McHugh to ask other operational questions. I turn to the issue of fuel pricing. The witnesses indicated that there were more than 1,000 fuel-related complaints and that they concluded that the vast majority did not fall into the category of price-gouging.
Could Mr. McHugh talk to us about the specific evidence that was gathered? I am talking about the purchase of the fuel, the decision to increase or decrease fuel prices, the day of sale and that sort of stuff.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Speaking generally, although it absolutely applies to these callers to our helpline, when someone calls in with a complaint and it is a potential breach of the law, we will look for evidence as part of their complaint so we can understand whether it is a breach of the law and what the evidence is. Our investigation teams will then engage more with those consumers to get into more detail about what the evidence might be. That is how we will generally treat our callers. Most of the cases we have and that you see prosecutions for started with someone calling in. Some of the prosecutions we have require the consumer to take the stand in court, for example, and give evidence. It is a prosecution in court. They will all be different but we would have applied the same approach to the complaints in relation to the fuel sector.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McHugh is saying that fewer than 5% of complaints raised specific consumer protection concerns. Is that correct?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is the CCPC continuing to process those complaints?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We have been looking at them and working through them. I do not want to say too much. In the context of our enforcement powers, we just do not comment on where things are. We did not see a lot of serious, obvious breaches of the law. We saw very real issues, particularly in the heating oil sector, in terms of how consumers were communicated with, and how prices were set and then withdrawn. We wrote to the heating oil sector and all the big companies to remind them of consumer law and their responsibilities to consumers.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Would it be fair to say that investigation is continuing or that there are continuing investigations in that sector?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
It is a key sector for us, yes, so we are continuing to look at it but I would not want to give the impression that there were some significant, widespread consumer law problems. A lot of the issues that we saw were down to what the contract was between the company and the consumer, which can get into more technical questions of contract law.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I think the Minister for enterprise has indicated that he may ask the CCPC to examine a report of three or four petrol stations on the one road all having a specific increase on a litre of diesel. I appreciate it is hard for Mr. McHugh to comment, but is the CCPC carrying out investigations that examine that potential for a breach of competition law?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Speaking very generally, we would. It is an area we would look at closely. We did get a lot of complaints - less so beyond March and April - about specific petrol stations. We do a lot of inspections of petrol stations because as well as the competition law, there are requirements in regard to display and what display must be available at petrol stations. It is an area we would spend a significant amount of time on.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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One concern might be that the CCPC initially started the investigations around school transport in 2017.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, that is worse. The prosecution was in 2025. We would not like to see the outcome of some complaints being made now being dealt with in 2035.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We strongly agree and for us, it is one of the significant benefits of the new administrative regime. There is, understandably, a lot of due process. In these cases, there are significant potential outcomes for companies and individuals in what we do. There are a lot of steps that we need to take, but we strongly agree that ten years to bring a case to conclusion is not quick. I will say that the file went to the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP, in 2019. From that point on, we were not in control.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Non-compliant procurement is something that comes up constantly here, and we see issues around procurement. I am concerned with the comments made in the Oireachtas committee on enterprise where someone - I think it was Mr. McHugh or someone from the commission - said they fully believed there were cartels operating within Ireland in the public procurement spend. Am I summarising that correctly?
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I am also concerned about the impact that is having on the price of housing. The State is now the largest actor in the housing market. The cost of the construction of housing has significantly increased. Mr. McHugh has mentioned construction specifically. If he is willing to say he fully believes there are cartels operating in public procurement, does he believe that is also operating in public procurement with regard to housing?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
I would not go that far because it is a bit too narrow a statement, but we do see cartels internationally, in nearly all countries. One of the big sources of uncovering those cartels is the leniency regime whereby, when an agency can fine a company, what you get is one of the companies says, "I'm in this cartel. Here's all the evidence. Just don't give me a fine". That is how they are uncovered in a lot of cases. We have never had that in Ireland and, therefore, we have not had that channel, but we now do.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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For the benefit of a member of the public looking on and wondering what a cartel is, Mr. McHugh is essentially indicating that for public procurement, often there is a very limited number of people. One of the reasons we do not have enough competition and better pricing is that if a limited number of people submitting bids for an e-tender were in some way acting as a cartel, they would be co-ordinating with each other both the price and the terms of the contract they were willing to deliver.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McHugh believes that is happening in Ireland, within the public procurement process.
Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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That leads me to my final question. I know the CCPC is waiting on the Act to be implemented. It will obviously need resources to respond to that. The question might be for the Department. Given the fairly strong statement that has been made here by the commission, is the Department now ready to step in and support it in trying to eliminate that cartel-type operation?
Mr. Colm Forde:
I thank the Deputy. The Department is very supportive of the work of the commission and its expanded remit over the last couple of years. As the Deputy will see from the opening statement from the chairperson and the briefing document the commission has supplied, its overall budget allocation has more than doubled in the past four to five years. Its overall sanctioned headcount has more than doubled as well. I think that illustrates the level of commitment given by the Department and Ministers to the budget and allocation for the CCPC to undertake the remit. That will obviously be a function of future budgets for the Estimates for 2027 and onwards.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone for being here. I will start off on the subject of public procurement as well, if I may. I do not want to misquote Mr. McHugh but I think he said that he fully believes there are cartels operating in public procurement. There is a value of approximately €20 billion in public procurement. I think that statement alone should set off alarm bells in regard to how seriously that potentially is. Even if 1% of that €20 billion was effectively wasted or misused, it is €200 million. What are we doing to address this issue?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
The first thing that has been done is the legislation is now in place to give us the powers to sanction breaches of competition law, including cartels. That means we now have leniency. We have a leniency phone line where companies can and do come forward with evidence. As I have said publicly, the phone does ring, so that is a really positive step.
The next thing that is planned, which we think will make a difference, is screening the tenders and giving us access to that data. We do a huge amount of confidential data every day. Other countries already have this and it is being proposed. We strongly support it. If we have access to that data, we will screen it for potential-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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How long, in the commission's view, have these cartels been operating in public procurement? How long has the commission held this view?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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For many decades.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. McHugh's concerns are not being acted upon.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is decades later.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That was in relation to school transport. What value were we talking about in that case? Can Mr. McHugh put a monetary value on it?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is the only success so far with regard to public procurement.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was not related to public procurement. How many staff in the commission are examining this issue of public procurement right now?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What level of resources is the commission putting into this issue? The scale of this is potentially huge. How is the commission directing resources towards addressing this issue, in line with the support it is getting from the Department by way of enhanced powers and so on?
Ms Úna Butler:
As Mr. Forde said, there has been a big increase in the CCPC's headcount. Part of that has gone towards our cartels function. We have 15 or 20 people working in our cartels division. We have a designated competition legal team that supports our cartels division. We have a forensic technology and data analytics division. That division works really hard on our cartels investigations. It analyses data we seize during search operations. Once we have these screening powers in respect of bid rigging in public procurement, it will also be working very closely on that.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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To clarify, how many staff does the commission have? Was it 275 posts?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are they filled?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Of that number, 20 people are working in the area of cartels. Is that correct?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It sounds as if there may be scope to redirect some staff into this area.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
One of our big issues is that we have a very broad mandate. We have talked about breaches of consumer law and the work we are going to do on switching electricity and gas suppliers. We understand the bigger picture in terms of budgets but, as we always say, if we have more staff, we will take on more cases.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are there open investigations into public procurement at present?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are there multiple open investigations?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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They are across different areas.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not asking Ms Butler to get into them but does she hope for some of these to conclude this year?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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On the fuel sector, I am not convinced that the issue is at the retail level. I think it might be at the wholesale level. There is choice in relation to fuel stations. There are options open to people but that is not necessarily the case in respect of wholesalers. What really frustrates people is that, when the price of oil increases on international markets, that is reflected at the pumps instantly, but when there is a decrease, there is always a delay. Has the commission examined the specific issue of that delay in reducing prices?
Mr. Geoffrey Gray:
We looked at the time it takes to pass price reductions on to consumers in 2022. We found that there was a lag. In that case, it was about the time it took to pass on the cut in excise duty to consumers. In our recent analysis, we found that there was also a lag in passing price increases on to consumers. There was a benefit when prices went up but it also took time for decreases to be passed on. To give the Deputy a sense of the scale of the increases, the wholesale price of petrol increased by 70% and the price of diesel more than doubled. Over the period we looked at, from the start of the year, the increase in the price of petrol was 6% to 10% and the increase in the price of diesel was 12% to 20%, depending on the metric used. We saw that retailers did not pass on even nearly the full extent of the wholesale price increases to the customers.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The commission does not see an issue in respect of that timing. It feels that, when international or wholesale prices change, increases and decreases are treated equally.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that. The commission has not seen anything of real concern in that area.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Financial services fall under the commission's remit. I am talking about banking, insurance and so on. That is an area in which many people feel there is a lack of competition. Does the commission have an opinion on the financial services sector?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We agree. There is a lack of competition in banking, particularly with the exit of KBC and Ulster Bank, on which we did quite a bit of work. We share those concerns. We also provided our views to the retail banking review that was previously carried out. New entrants are absolutely essential. We have all seen some green shoots, particularly with regard to fintech, which has grown hugely. Literally millions of Irish people have signed up with a few companies through their phones. It is clear that where consumers are offered a product they like, can use and benefit from, they will switch and they will sign up. There are significant regulatory barriers. That is only right. We all want prudential regulation. One of the key questions is whether the balance is right between having really good prudential barriers and making sure that the barriers are not so high as to prevent entry. It is really important that those who have entered the market have the ability to expand into other markets. We hope to see that. For example, a company that is in the payments market might get into deposits and mortgages. This also affects SMEs. That lack of competition we are talking about very much applies for SMEs as well.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The banking sector is very much on the commission's radar as regards competition. Does it have a similar view on the insurance sector?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Yes. We have done a number of investigations into the insurance sector over the years. We keep an active eye on it. Again, entry is really important. One of the areas we worked on, led by the European Commission, was making sure that the data held by Insurance Ireland was made available to new entrants. That was one of the outcomes of that investigation. We really welcomed that. One of the metrics we always look at in markets is entry because it makes a big difference. It brings in new business models and new innovation. When you do not see entry for a long time, the market suffers.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Were there any prosecutions in relation to either the banking or insurance sector in terms of malpractice?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We do not have a role outside of competition law. We previously had a case relating to motor insurance. We investigated whether motor insurance companies were signalling price increases to one another. We concluded that investigation with commitments from a significant number of motor insurance companies that they would change their behaviour. They signed those commitments and are bound by them. That occurred before competition law was changed. Before competition law was changed, the CCPC had no ability to fine companies for breaking competition law. At that time, that option was not there. I am not saying that is what would have happened in that case but it was a very different time in terms of the powers available to the CCPC.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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How many investigations does the commission have open right now across both the consumer and competition streams?
Ms Úna Butler:
For operational reasons, I would prefer not to comment but we have had a significant and much-increased number of competition investigations since we got the new powers in 2023. There is a lot already in the public domain about searches we have done since 2023. We have spoken publicly about some other investigations on the competition side. For operational reasons, there are other investigations we do not talk about.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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We have heard that the CCPC's budget and head count have doubled. Has its output doubled?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Would they have doubled? Could Mr. McHugh give me a rough estimate?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I read that. It is a big claim. It is a very big claim, yet the perception is that the CCPC lacks public credibility. People are seeing huge price increases, consumers are seeing real issues and yet the CCPC repeatedly comes out and says everything is fine. On the one hand, the public, unfortunately, really doubts its credibility while, on the other, the CCPC is saying it is returning €21 for every €1 invested. Are these real savings or are they theoretical? Where are consumers seeing this in their weekly shop and weekly bills?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Can Mr. McHugh give me an example? In terms of being able to back up the CCPC's credibility, and that is a really bold claim, Mr. McHugh needs to give examples. The fact that it is peer reviewed is a bit wishy-washy, I am afraid.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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By how much? What is the percentage year on year? What are we seeing?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What was the total number of prosecutions last year?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Eight in total for the whole year.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
For consumer issues, yes. Those were prosecutions to court. We would also have other enforcement actions around compliance notices and fixed payment notices. There is a huge amount of consumer frustration around energy prices and food prices and we have looked into them. Sometimes it is not easy as a consumer body that is there to look after consumer welfare.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I know I am pushing Mr. McHugh but, genuinely, people ask me what the value is. If Mr. McHugh comes out with a statement like that, he needs to be giving us credible examples. Telling me the CCPC undertook ten prosecutions last year is not convincing me, so how am I supposed to convince my constituents?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
The prosecutions that we have taken against Tesco affect millions of Irish consumers who purchase billions of euro worth of product from Tesco. It has changed its pricing practices on the back of that. We have taken prosecutions relating to Black Friday sales and price indications.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the work the CCPC puts into those versus the fines and the costs that are awarded, while I see absolutely see the value of trying to deter, that is not a deterrent. The fines are lower than my family's monthly grocery bills. We need to see the Department stepping up and bringing forward real enforcement fines and penalties to make it much easier for the CCPC to do its job and try to rebuild some of the confidence in the CCPC.
I saw Mr. Forde nodding when Deputy McGrath asked him about the scale of cartels. Can he put a figure on the exposure to the State?
Mr. Colm Forde:
The honest answer is that I cannot. That would be more to do with the expertise of Mr. McHugh but I know that he has stated previously that, based on international research and evidence, cartels do exist. We would be naive to think they do not exist. Where they exist, one can see price premiums of something like 20% to 30%. That is an academic figure. Again, we would be naive to think that they are not here in Ireland so it is important that we have the powers and ability to identify those cartels if they exist and then to prosecute them. Again, the experts in this field would be my colleagues behind me.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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In terms of bid screening, could we see that cost increase? A figure of 20% to 30% is huge when it comes to a cost to the State. Would bid screening help?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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When is it going to happen?
Mr. Colm Forde:
It is on the legislative timetable for the Oireachtas and we would hope to have this in the Oireachtas in the second half of the year. The ambition is to bring a memo to Government setting out the policy ambitions before the summer break. That would involve the bid screening piece for competition and also an administrative sanctions regime for consumers. The Deputy is absolutely right that bringing a case to court demands huge resources from the CCPC, and where the outcome is €1,000, it does not seem proportionate. The ability to have an administrative sanction regime that would be more proportionate would provide more of a deterrent-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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On the ability of the CCPC to recoup more of its legal costs and internal costs, there has to be something in there because it is a huge cost to the State. It is a necessary one in terms of deterring wider behaviour, but big players like Tesco, Ticketmaster, etc., should not be getting away with it. There is no deterrent. We should see that legislation before us-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Why was it not done before now? This is not a new issue.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Has the CCPC been raising the issues around procurement and cartels for some time now? If so, could Mr. McHugh indicate for how long?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
The fundamental issue of cartels in Ireland and the need to have proper punishments goes back decades. The Competition Authority, as it was then, would have been looking for those. That culminated in the recent legislation we have been talking about and we now have those powers. Regarding the request in terms of screening for bid rigging, it goes back a number of years, but not as long. We really welcome this legislation.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Roughly.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I would like to see the Department maybe move more swiftly when it comes to things like this, particularly if we have been paying a premium of 20% to 30% for the six or seven years since the CCPC highlighted the issue.
I will move on to dynamic pricing. This is not a new phenomenon. Since the Oasis case, we saw the take-off of dynamic pricing after the ticket touting legislation was introduced in 2021. I heard commentary on radio this morning. We are seeing artists and ticketing platforms moving into the same space as those increased ticket touting prices, where they are actually now benefiting from these hugely inflated prices. Has the CCPC looked at the system in the UK? Why have we not proposed introducing some of the protections the UK is introducing?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
I am not aware of the detail of the Bill introduced in the UK. There are protections in Ireland, which are around the reselling of tickets, and they are enforced by An Garda Síochána. From our point of view, in terms of consumer protection there are laws already in place. We are looking at a particular case, so I will not say too much more.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What the UK is doing is warning customers in advance. If the pricing is variable, the companies in question have to specify the price ranges, update customers if they are in a queue, tell them the cheaper tickets have sold out and avoid using these misleading labels. I see it all the time. They talk about premium tickets and you literally get a standing ticket and maybe a different colour wristband or whatever. There is no premium and no value added. Again, the UK is saying that companies have to be very clear what the added value is and cannot use misleading labels. There is a fine of up to 10% of global turnover and enforcement is administrative and fast and it is not necessary to resort to the courts. All of that seems very practical to my mind. We should look to introduce similar types of protections and I would have thought that the CCPC might have looked at what was happening in other areas.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I encourage the CCPC to look at what we can do in terms of protecting customers.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will try not to go over what has been covered, but I have some follow-on questions arising from some of the earlier discussions about cartels.
Ms Butler stated the CCPC has multiple investigations in this regard, but out of curiosity, could she put an indicative number, rather than a precise one, on how many cartels the organisation has flagged where no action was taken against them?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Obviously, the CCPC has got to a point where there are investigations into cartels and it has the enhanced legislation and other things to allow it to move. However, during that period when it did not have the powers to act on cartels, is there an indicative number of how many concerns the CCPC might have had that it was not in a position to move on?
Ms Úna Butler:
In order to go against cartels, we had a criminal enforcement regime we operated under, which came with a very high standard of evidence we had to reach. Inevitably, there would have been some cases we might have looked at and investigated but were not able to get evidence to the required standard to proceed.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As it currently stands, is Ms Butler of the belief that the CCPC has sufficient powers to act, or is there anything further needed?
Ms Úna Butler:
We certainly think we have sufficient investigation powers. We have got surveillance powers and a really strong new enforcement regime. The one gap we have identified on that cartel side is the power to screen public procurement data for signs or red flags of bid-rigging. That would be an extremely impactful detection tool, if we were to get it.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is on its way.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Correct me if I am wrong on this, but it is my understanding that dynamic pricing is not currently defined under Irish or EU consumer protection legislation, and in most cases it is not actually prohibited. Is that correct?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We have concerts like Bruce Springsteen and Oasis, where we have seen Irish consumers furious and absolutely outraged at the price hikes of tickets, hotels and transport in real time. We also have the FIFA World Cup in the USA, which has the same challenges and difficulties at present.
Has the CCPC engaged with Government to define dynamic pricing as illegal in cases like those I have mentioned, or is that something that needs to be recommended to Government at this stage?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We would not recommend to Government in any way that dynamic pricing as a concept be made illegal. Dynamic pricing can make markets very efficient. It can serve consumers very well, particularly in the long run. At times, consumers really like dynamic pricing, such as when Irish consumers go abroad and they use a ride-hailing app, which can give different prices at different times. However, we also fully understand that at other times consumers are very frustrated by dynamic pricing, and that is very real.
In respect of the concerts we have talked about, it is often not dynamic pricing; the price is just very high. There is a very real question of whether consumers are misled. Obviously, misleading consumers is a breach of consumer law. However, often the very high prices are set by the ticketing company and artists, and it is not actually dynamic pricing.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is a fair point.
We have spoken a bit about construction throughout this hearing. Everybody is aware of BAM and the ongoing saga there, as well as the fact it does not publicly disclose the real-time total of its live contracts. It is one of the largest construction firms in the country and is actively managing a huge portfolio of up to ten to 20 concurrent major contracts in both the public and private sectors. Does the CCPC have a role in protecting the Irish taxpayer from companies like this - not BAM specifically, which still has not given us the most expensive hospital in the world, but companies like it - to deter them from getting any future State contracts? Do the witnesses have a role in that or a view on it?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We absolutely have a role in protecting the taxpayer from all companies that breach competition or consumer law. In our view, all companies that take part in public bids should have absolutely nothing to fear from the competition authority being able to see those bids. Where there is confidential information, that is not an issue; we look at confidential information every day. We are perfectly capable of protecting it, so I would be concerned if any company taking part in public tenders did not want the competition authority to see their bids.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We spoke a bit about the successful prosecutions the CCPC has had. In one of the prosecutions regarding Boots Ireland admitting to misleading price practices during Black Friday sales, the Dublin District Court gave the company a €1,000 fine, which was very bizarre - it was a charitable donation and to cover the CCPC's costs.
The CCPC previously called for stronger enforcement powers, including the ability to give direct fines to businesses, based on their turnover. Is it any closer to being able to levy fines as a statutory body, similar to what Coimisiún na Meán does?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It would be direct sanctions; that is good.
Regarding the over 40,000 complaints the CCPC received last year, Ryanair, Rathwood and Currys seemed to be the most complained-about companies. Does the CCPC collate data on repeat offenders? Are there increased sanctions year-on-year if it sees trends of repeat offenders?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Again, the contacts might not be offenders, but we do publish the contacts and they are very useful for looking at where we prioritise our work, to see if there are issues. Some of those would have led to prosecutions and ongoing issues.
The Deputy mentioned Rathwood, for example. We prosecuted Rathwood and have taken further enforcement action against it. There is very much a link between what we get from consumers and the actions we take. We talked about fining regimes and how companies might be fined for breaches of consumer law. One of the elements of calculating the fine would be repeat offenders. It is relatively standard in the guidelines for fines that where it is a repeat offender, the sanction will be higher.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We tend to point out the negatives in this committee and tease out the things that are not working well, but is there an example of a company the CCPC took action against which went on to receive no complaints the following year? Are there any positives in that regard?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Yes. We carried out several inspections last week right across the country in various types of stores, and we saw an improvement in compliance that is very welcome. In particular, compliance levels had improved in some of the smaller stores we went into, which was great.
The other important thing is that for our Black Friday investigations we scan the websites of some of the biggest companies to look for compliance with the law. Some of the big companies are 100% compliant; their systems are built to comply with consumer law. Since we started our campaign, and we continue to look at those potential breaches every year, we have seen huge increases in compliance. The important thing for us to note is companies can get 100% compliance. All companies should have systems in place to comply with the law, and we believe our enforcement actions have prompted that.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Are there provisions in place from the perspective of the CCPC regarding tackling online influencers? Does it have a role in that, and if it does, how often does it review that process or what is it?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Me neither.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
-----but apparently lots of people do. Importantly, many people buy products as a result of the person they follow, so one of our priorities has been to ensure those influencers follow the consumer law and tell people this is an advertisement and they are being paid for the promotion. That is consumer law. We have taken several enforcement actions against individuals, some of whom are very well known, in order for them to comply with consumer law.
It continues to be an area of focus for us.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is an ever-evolving market, I would imagine. I thank Mr. Hugh for that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We are now going to take a short break for about ten or 15 minutes. The meeting is now suspended.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee and for all of their answers so far. It has been an interesting hearing.
I will start with legal fees for enforcement.
I have a particular reason for asking these questions. Legal fees for enforcement, if my figures are correct, totalled €882,000 in 2024 but in 2023, they were €88,000. What is the explanation for that big jump in legal fees?
Ms Úna Butler:
Certainly. Roughly 75% of those enforcement costs in 2024 related to a High Court action that Ryanair took against the CCPC arising from a search operation that we did in March 2024 on behalf of the Italian competition authority. That case, that one High Court action, generated fees of in and around €565,000 in 2024.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Was Ryanair successful in that High Court application?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Could some of the costs that have been incurred by the CCPC be recoverable?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the prosecutions the CCPC has taken, I had a quick perusal of those. In fairness, the CCPC puts them all up on its website and they are clear for everyone to see. The sanctions in a lot of those prosecutions are quite low and, in some cases, de minimis. There was mention of the Tesco case. Am I correct in saying that was effectively a gift to the poor box?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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How much did the Tesco investigation that led to that prosecution cost the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In terms of resourcing, how many people were involved in that case file? It was investigated and the CCPC probably had to instruct a solicitor and barrister. I do not know how many days the hearing lasted. Can Mr. McHugh give us a flavour of it?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We have a team that would go out and do regular inspections and collect the evidence, as we did last week across the country. We then put the evidence together and present it to the other side, in this case, Tesco. We prepare an evidence file for the court and get prepared and ready to go to court. We have the relevant staff ready to give evidence and the relevant teams to make sure evidence is appropriately prepared for court. We then attend court and have the prosecution ready.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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When it comes to resourcing cases and deciding to pursue a particular line of inquiry, the CCPC has, as Mr. McHugh said, multiple investigations, phone calls, tip-offs and so on. Who makes the decisions on which of those to proceed with? For example, the Tesco case, which Mr. McHugh highlighted, resulted in Tesco making a contribution to the poor box of €1,000. It was not even a fine. Would Mr. McHugh see that now as money well spent and good resourcing with a positive outcome? Would he do it again, if I can put it that way?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Absolutely. We talked about the need for the punishment to fit the crime and for there to be a proper deterrent effect, but in terms of the impact that case had on consumers, it affects millions of consumers who use Tesco and spend billions of euro. In that particular case, it was around pricing and per-unit rates. We know that when consumers shop, they compare the per-unit rates before making their buying decision. In that particular case, those were not available for the Clubcard prices, which are very prominent in Tesco. Those were not available and that has a huge effect.
In terms of our prioritisation principles, which we publish, they are around the consumer harm, the potential for us to have an impact and the resources. We prioritise on that basis.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Going forward, will prosecutions be a metric of success for Mr. McHugh's organisation?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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They are relatively low, are they not? Mr. McHugh referred to ten or 11 prosecutions being taken in a calendar year. That is a fairly low number.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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That is why I mentioned prosecutions in terms of a metric. I was specific on that. In terms of going through the motions of bringing people to court if they do not comply, perhaps because the fixed penalty notice is not applicable, or whatever the reason may be, is that a metric of success? Does Mr. McHugh envisage the CCPC taking an awful lot more people to court in the years ahead?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, there is a world of difference between prosecuting a case against Tesco for a Clubcard breach that results in a €1,000 donation to a poor box and defending a case against Ryanair because of a seizure by the CCPC that cost it €889,000. One of the things that we probed with the Director of Corporate Enforcement was how it gets most of the knitting right, in terms of what could be described as the lesser offences when it is prosecuting, but then when it comes to the big cases, problems very often arise and costs grow and elevate, impacting its ability to carry out its full functions. Is that a similar problem for Mr. McHugh's organisation?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
One of the big differences is when the companies want to fight. In a lot of the cases we have talked about today, there were guilty pleas. Speaking generally, when you want to take enforcement action against a large company that is well resourced and, for whatever reason, it wants to fight the action - sometimes it affects its business model so it will not plead guilty and will want to fight - it can, in those circumstances, use all the processes that are available in terms of due process. It can challenge elements, not only the fundamentals of the case but also process elements along the way, so we can spend a lot of time and money in court.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does the CCPC have gardaí seconded to it guiding it on these major cases? If so, how many gardaí are seconded to Mr. McHugh's organisation?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Has the CCPC always only had one garda? Has that been the case since the beginning or for the past couple of years?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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For example, if the CCPC is getting a warrant and carrying out a raid, that is bread-and-butter stuff for the Garda. How does the CCPC do that?
Ms Úna Butler:
One thing worth noting is that our cartels division has a number of staff members who are former members of An Garda Síochána and have worked in the Garda National Economic Crime Bureau, for example. We do have staff ourselves who have a lot of expertise in undertaking search operations. Typically, when we undertake a search operation, we get assistance from the Garda National Economic Crime Bureau, GNECB, and maybe local Garda detective units who can assist us in those searches. We have staff ourselves who are skilled in carrying out those operations.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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For the major searches, the CCPC would avail of the Garda.
The CCPC had a fairly high-profile success in the school transport bid rigging case, with Central Criminal Court convictions. In a case such as that, is it the CCPC doing the prosecution or is there a referral to the Director of Public Prosecutions? What level of Garda involvement is there in that or what is the interplay there?
Ms Úna Butler:
That is quite a good case study. That investigation opened in 2016. We conducted a large number of searches as part of that investigation in 2016 and in subsequent years. We got assistance from members of An Garda Síochána and our seconded garda during the investigation stage. We then referred a file to the Director of Public Prosecutions in 2019. It has been with the DPP since then, who then directed charges against a number of individuals and companies.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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How many files has the CCPC referred to the DPP in the past three years?
Ms Úna Butler:
In terms of competition offences, the last file that we referred was in 2019. Since then, we have investing a lot of our efforts and time in establishing our new administrative enforcement regime. Since 2023, arising from the legislation that came into effect then, we have also had, in parallel with our criminal enforcement regime, an administrative enforcement regime for competition law. We have really increased the number of investigations since then. We have been very active in that space.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The CCPC has made a virtue of the bid rigging in procurement and the laws that are going to come in.
Is that going to be sufficient to effect change in that area, or does the CCPC need to go down the road it took with the bid-rigging that took place in school transport, which, to my mind, was a very significant and successful case? How does the CCPC marry those two between the administrative side of the house and having the teeth to go full-on in with a DPP referral and full prosecution? How are we going to effect change here?
Ms Úna Butler:
We have a choice of enforcement regime, as the Deputy is aware, between criminal and administrative for these cartel cases. We have published a guidance note on how we exercise that choice. The legislation allows us to make a choice between those two at any point. It really depends on a number of factors: the nature of the case, the evidence we might have, or what enforcement route we might choose. We are certainly very keen to use that administrative enforcement regime, given the large financial penalties that are available under it.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank all the witnesses for being here and staying with us. Building on Deputy Geoghegan's contribution, is there ever a problem with regard to those cartel investigations, for example, in public procurement? Does the CCPC have access to all the information it needs to investigate that? I am thinking of the GDPR, potentially, or any sorts of ways in which the CCPC might not be able to access that. It seems like relatively low-hanging fruit in terms of prosecutions, given that it would be publicly available information or information that, through different levers of the State, the CCPC would be able to access.
Ms Úna Butler:
There are a number of ways in which we try to drive detection. As we have said, detection is key when it comes to bid-rigging in public procurement in all types of cartel activity because, by its nature, it is hidden. The participants in it try to hide their behaviour. We have a number of detection tools we use. We have an immunity regime and a leniency regime, where people can confess their involvement in the wrongdoing and come to us and get a reduction in fines as a result of that. We also have a confidential anonymous whistleblower platform where people can come as whistleblowers confidentially and anonymously and give us tip-offs. We do a lot of outreach and give training to public procurement officials, alerting them as to the kinds of red flags, if you like, that they should be looking out for. That is also extremely effective, I think.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Similar tender briefs or similar responses-----
Ms Úna Butler:
Yes. We have published guidance documents and we give this specialised training to procurement officials about these types of things. As the Deputy said, it could be red flags in terms of language used or patterns in terms of tender behaviour. Those are really important tools that we have in terms of detection. Then, obviously, we think our toolkit would really be complete if we also had the power to screen large data sets of public procurement data to spot any further red flags of bid-rigging.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In particular with regard to the important prosecution before Christmas of last year, I know sentencing was due to happen in March. Has that happened? What does the CCPC expect to be the outcome from that prosecution in terms of sentencing?
Ms Úna Butler:
Sentencing in that case, as far as I am aware, has been set for early June, so we are still awaiting sentencing in the case. There is a second group of defendants who are also awaiting trial in relation to the same matter that was under investigation there, so for that reason, obviously, we do not want to comment on it.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I understand. I apologise.
With regard to the 2024 financial statements, it was really interesting to see that the CCPC's research spend was down but its media buy was up. In addition, its financial education was up. Do the witnesses want to take a minute or two to summarise why there has been a change? Is it just that in the course of that year priorities maybe shifted a little?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Certainly in terms of the media and the financial education, we ran a number of programmes. We have been really building up our role and our work in financial education. We are running a number of programmes with schools around adult literacy. We have put quite a bit of investment into those. In addition, 2024 included the beginnings of our work on the national financial literacy strategy. It includes work we have done with the OECD in the build-up to the launch of the strategy. One of the other key elements in terms of media is the sponsorship we did of "The Complaints Bureau", an RTÉ programme about consumers making complaints and working through how they get resolution. That is again very much on the back of our requirement to empower consumers and to give them information on how when something goes wrong they have rights and can take action. That was really successful in terms of the reach we got from that programme.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How many live investigations are ongoing with regard to social media influencers?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
It is an area we track regularly. I would not describe it particularly as a live investigation. I do not have a number for any live investigation. We monitor regularly right across a number of influencers. That is something we just track all the time. We also will take and have taken enforcement action where we engage with those influencers, whatever the action might be. It may be a compliance-----
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I understand that this year, a number of high-profile people had letters issued to them.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Yes. They have had compliance notices issued to them as an enforcement action to comply with the law. It is an area that is relatively new. We have done and continue to do a lot of information work. A number of influencers did not know what the consumer law was. We worked with the ASA on guidance in order that it was very clear what they needed to do. We followed that by monitoring, then we moved into enforcement, and we will look to take stronger enforcement action if we see continuous breaches of consumer law. We are out there monitoring, and part of that is and will be looking at parties who have previously got enforcement actions. We will nearly always, right across the work we do, follow up with anyone to make sure they are now compliant with the law.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Were any of the notices that were sent out this year contested at all?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What is the threshold for issuing that? Is it one post and someone knows? Does the CCPC send a letter? Does the CCPC have an internal threshold whereby it looks at behavioural trends as opposed to one-offs?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Yes. Speaking just generally, as to how we go about our work, it will depend on what might be one-off. It is case by case but, generally, with something like that, you are looking for more of a regular pattern, more continuous and multiple issues and problems where, in terms of influencers, the posts have not complied with consumer law. Generally, we look for either more egregious breaches or a pattern of breaches.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I have a bee in my bonnet about supermarket loyalty schemes. The gap seems to be, anecdotally, from my experience, widening significantly between the standard cost of a unit versus the membership cost. Is the CCPC monitoring that in real time and is it noticing anything in terms of trends by supermarkets?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
It is something we look at. Again, it such a massive market and it has such an impact on consumers that we will always look at it. We have seen this change in business models. I do not want to pick out any particular supermarket, but we all know that if you go into certain supermarkets and you do not have the card, you are paying a radically different price from the price with the card and, therefore, you must have the card. That is relatively new and it has grown. It is something we have considered with a lens as to what might happen. I mentioned the Tesco case. That prosecution was about Clubcard pricing. It is something we continue to monitor. Again, businesses are free to set their prices and to think of new business models. We have seen how the introduction of discount stores into Ireland 20 years ago had a massive positive impact on pricing in terms of food inflation, so we are always keen to encourage business models. There may be a point where we think that the balance in terms of the consumer experience is no longer the right balance and we may consider whether some form of intervention is needed, but we have not got to that point.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I am just curious about this. Again, I am no expert but I think where such loyalty cards started, in terms of their purpose, and the purpose they are serving now are two very different things.
While we feel we might benefit from getting the cheaper alternative, I am not sure that we are in most cases. It is the inflated price that is the standard price. What we are paying is the normal market price, but we are under the perception that we are getting a great deal. I know the commission cannot be concerned with ethical nature of that, but I question the ethics of such schemes. It is worth monitoring into the future.
I just got a reply to a parliamentary question back from the Department this week regarding Passwork. I thank the officials for that. Who is Passwork and what does the commission use that company for?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is fine. I thank Mr. McHugh.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It stores-----
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I understand.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone from the CCPC and the Department for being with us. I appreciate their recent engagement with the enterprise committee, where I had an opportunity to engage with them. Today, we are specifically focused on the 2024 financial statements. A question that I ask a lot of bodies is around their purchase orders and the publishing of same. I note from the CCPC's website that it publishes them in a PDF format. Is it possible to publish them in a machine-readable format? This is something that the Minister, Deputy Chambers, would have written to all entities and Departments on in April reminding them of their obligation to comply with the EU open data directive. Is that something that the CCPC has been considering?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It is currently published as a PDF. Essentially, if it was published in as an Excel document, it would be much easier for somebody to work with and understand how the CCPC is procuring, who it is employing and what it is spending money on. I noticed from its website that it publishes contracts as well.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Is that for its contract award notices or does the commission publish the detail of the contract?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Not everyone does that. That is good to see. Would the witnesses see any value in linking the purchase orders that get published back to the original contracts? Right now, when I see a purchase order report, I can see who was paid, when they were paid and how much they were paid, but I cannot see for what. I do not know which contract any individual payment links back to.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It can be quite vague.
Ms Emily Barry:
I know we do it internally. If the Deputy is asking whether there would be a benefit to publishing it externally, I am not entirely sure. It depends on what the Deputy is looking for. If he was trying to trace a purchase order back to a contract, it would be difficult at the moment based on the information that is provided. For our purchase orders that are published, he would have to look at the list and identity the supplier, then go to our contract list.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It might not be pertinent for the CCPC, but for larger departments that might engage consultancy where I can see hundreds of payments made to, for example, a consultant, company or whatever, they might be operating under multiple contracts but I cannot tell how much was paid under any given contract. I cannot tell if something was on, under or over budget. As a result, that is a frustration that I have. I would welcome engagement with the CCPC to see purchase orders published in machine-readable format if that was possible.
Over the past few years, the CCPC's budgets have growing significantly. In 2020, grant income was €10.8 million. It was up to €22.7 million in 2024. What has driven the significant increase in expenditure at the CCPC? Regarding value for money, what benefits have been realised by spending more money on the CCPC?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
The increase in resources and staff is driven by the increase in the mandate. We have multiple new divisions across data, digital and market surveillance. We are now responsible for European Consumer Centre Ireland. We have new surveillance powers and a new surveillance team. The increase in resources is driven by the legislation and by the increase in the mandate.
In terms of the benefit, we publish an impact assessment, which is peer reviewed. That calculates that for every €1 we spend, consumers get €21 in value. We do believe, therefore, that we have a strong impact. On the mergers that we carry out, we have given the example that we blocked the merger at Dublin Airport with the car park. The DAA wanted to buy. There is now competition, and consumers have choice and lower prices. We have published a piece on that to compare the prices.
On consumer enforcement, we have talked a bit today about the Tesco case. That breach of consumer law has now been fixed. That affects millions of consumers. In terms of competition enforcement, we have had the change in practices and commitments from the motor insurance companies. Again, we have not seen the issues that caused us to investigate there. They have changed their approach. We have set all of those out and published the impact assessment. One thing that is not in the impact assessment is the deterrent effect that we have. One of the examples is that we are very much focused on Black Friday as an issue, whereby companies were offering discounts that were not real discounts whatsoever. In fact, often where it had been €200 and was reduced to €100, it had been for sale for €80 a few weeks before that. We have punished those companies - if you consider a €1,000 contribution to charity a punishment.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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How many companies were caught in that activity relating to Black Friday?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Those activities included Boots and DID Electrical. There were a number of them over time, and they continued. Brown Thomas was a recent one. It was not just one batch. It is ongoing every year. What is important for us, and again, it is not included in our impact assessment, is that as we scrape those websites and we do continuously, we have seen companies that have totally changed practices and are now 100% compliant. Consumers get a benefit from that. It is hard to calculate it, but it is real.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, I appreciate that. There are a lot of practices out there that need to be reined in, and I hope the CCPC succeeds in doing that. We discussed this in the enterprise committee, but I have massive concerns about the potential presence of cartels. I am hopeful that the work the CCPC does there will be fruitful and will find what it is looking for.
Regarding the CCPC's consultancy costs, it had a consultancy spend in 2023 of €301,913. In 2024, that almost doubled to €533,916. In note 6, the CCPC disclosed other consultancy fees of €828,000. I know that includes legal fees, but what else does that €828,000 relate to? Why was it disclosed separately from the consultancy costs breakdown?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Regarding the first question as to what drives the increase, there are two big drivers for that. They are both similar. It is driven very much by the big mergers that we had in 2024 and the advice and support that we had externally on those. There were a few.
To give examples, we had the Phoenix-Cellnex merger in 2024 and we had the Lloyds Pharmacy-McCabes pharmacy merger, both of which resulted in divestments. They were very big phase 2 cases. Again we are talking about cases that involve transactions of up to €1 billion. It was a huge effort.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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When the CCPC gets consultants to advise on that or firms to provide advisory services on that, does it carry out an independence check to ensure there is no crossover between the people who are subjects of the mergers and also the consultants advising it?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Going back, I know that extra €828,000 includes the legal fees, but that is disclosed separately in note 6. Why is that the case?
Ms Emily Barry:
Those consultancy costs are a subset of the consultancy costs that would appear later in the document. The figure of €828,000 includes some of the ones that are summarised on page 7. It is kind of a distinction between, as per the sentence under the heading on page 7, the cost of external advice to management versus outsourced business-as-usual type functions. These are management consultancy that was provided to the commission or various units. A lot of the other €800,000 relates to what we call business-as-usual activities, for example expert analysis of complex mergers, which is our day-to-day job.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of questions. I will first touch on the whole issue of cartels, which obviously is an area of huge concern. You alluded to research internationally where the average overcharge detected in cartel cases is in the order of 20% or 30%. I do not know whether it is stated here but on average, it seems some of those cartels have been operating for between four and seven years. Given some of the measures that are in place in other European countries and internationally, in my view it appears we are laggards in having the ability to crack down on them. Do you think those percentage figures are conservative in comparison with the potential risks we are exposed to within this State because of the failure to have the necessary protections and safeguards in place?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
I am not sure if those figures would be conservative. Because for years the powers were not in place - we are now in a better place - to uncover cartels and to punish them, the concern we have is because there was no deterrent, we may have more cartels in Ireland than there are internationally.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You mentioned those calls were going back as far as 2016. One of his predecessors had been calling for these powers and that is ten years ago. If we multiply the potential loss to the State annually, we are looking at billions over that short timeframe of ten years. The Hamilton report of 2020 was mentioned and this was one of its main recommendations. From a departmental perspective, why has there been foot dragging on this for so long given the serious loss to the public purse of billions, and we know it far exceeds that, over a ten-year period? Why have there been consistent failures to move on this?
Mr. Colm Forde:
I am conscious we are probably getting into policy issues so I refer to my previous comment that it is in the programme for Government to give these powers following the Hamilton review of the CCPC and that the legislation is being developed with heads to go to Government at the moment. Ms O'Reilly might want to add to this. It might be helpful.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was it the European Court of Auditors that forced the Department to belatedly move on this issue? I think it published a report in 2023 and called for member states to close the gaps in the public procurement data collection. That was a serious recommendation coming from the European Court of Auditors. Was it that which sparked the belated move by the Department on this issue?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I will look at some of the international cases. I know there were huge investigations in Austria in 2022. In Spain there were six Spanish construction firms fined €200 million by the Spanish regulator for colluding on bids for public construction contracts. A number of those companies were actually banned from participating in the public procurement process in Spain. It is widely reported that a number of those companies that were banned in Spain came to this State and were successful in obtaining very lucrative contracts. A number of those companies that were banned in Spain put in bids for the children's hospital as well. Would the CCPC have concerns about companies like this that are banned in other countries, whether it be European ones or elsewhere, successfully bidding for contracts here? Was there a specific piece of work looking at those examples or any concerns raised?
Ms Úna Butler:
It is a matter of procurement law about whether companies are allowed to participate. There are provisions in the EU procurement directives that give contracting authorities some discretion that they are allowed to maybe preclude certain companies from participating. Obviously, the legal issues are relatively complex. Sometimes you might find one legal entity has been sanctioned in a certain jurisdiction and might be operating through another legal entity in our jurisdiction. It is not something that is directly within the CCPC's remit.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In examples such as that, where a company has been banned in another EU country, should that be a European-wide ban?
Ms Úna Butler:
There are a number of factors at play here. What we have heard is that in some markets there may be a very limited number of companies that are actually capable of bidding for certain work. There are factors that have to be weighed up because, if a certain company were banned Europe-wide, it might take a very significant player out of the market and mean there would be less competition in tender processes in future. There are factors that have to be weighed up in different markets.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I want to touch on the European Consumer Centre Ireland, ECCI, a company that was limited by guarantee with non-profit status. It was designated until the end of 2023 by the then Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment to provide European consumer centre services here in this State. It was jointly funded by the European Commission and the Department. The funding was administered through the CCPC. Why was the ECCI dedesignated at the end of 2023?
Mr. Colm Forde:
A number of internal industrial relations issues became evident during the course of late 2022 and 2023. The Department was aware of these, as were the CCPC and European Commission, and it was at a decision point as to what would be the designated entity for the period of 2024 to 2028. In those circumstances, where there were considerable IR challenges within the ECCI, it was considered it was no longer a suitable entity to designate for those cross-European consumer functions. That designation was then moved to the CCPC, effective from 1 January 2024.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Will you give further information on some of those issues that arose, obviously without identifying any individuals?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That was the previous committee, so we do not have line of sight of that.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Why was there such a high level of resignations? Was there a review or was an investigation carried out or what was the basis of those resignations?
Mr. Colm Forde:
That was an independent company limited by guarantee. It had its own governance structures and its own directors. When the Department became aware of these issues, in the first instance we undertook to procure a governance review of the organisation to understand what those issues were and whether it would be feasible for them to continue undertaking those services. However, as the Department had considered undertaking that governance review, the number of executives and directors who resigned got to a point where it was no longer feasible for that organisation to carry on any functions. It expedited that decision about who to designate for those activities from-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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What kind of a timeframe was there for the governance issues?
Mr. Colm Forde:
The Department, the CCPC and the Commission were made aware of these issues in late 2022. Then the deadline for designating the authority to carry out these functions for the period 2024 to 2028 had to be made by 15 May 2023. Between that period of late 2022 and May 2023, it became clear that the ECCI, as it was at that point, could no longer carry out those functions on behalf of the State.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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How much funding was that organisation in receipt of?
Mr. Colm Forde:
I understand its annual running costs were in the region of €400,000. That was split 50:50 between the Department, which was administered through the CCPC, and then the balance of the other approximately €210,000 was derived from EISMEA, which is an executive agency of the European Commission.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Forde might furnish us with all of those details.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I want to move on quickly. I note today that the EU has fined Temu a substantial sum of €200 million for illegal products, dangerous toys and defective chargers. Obviously, Temu is widely popular here in Ireland. It is deeply concerning that there appears to be a number of failures in relation to this. It is a considerable fine. If the EU has done this, has there been serious failings in this State to identify those products if they have been coming onto the Irish market via online purchases? Is there a failure from the perspective of the CCPC or had it any involvement in this investigation?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Yes. It is an issue of real concern for us. It is something we have been working on. Temu have been included in some of the sweeps we have done with our European colleagues to identify potential issues of product safety. We did find - and this is all in the public domain - over 70% non-compliance in those sweeps. It was not just Temu but it was one of the companies included.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There was over 70% of non-compliance?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That was across a range of different products.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
It was different products and different companies. Not all were in non-compliance around product safety but there was a significant product safety issue. It is absolutely a problem. We have worked with our European colleagues. That will be part of the understanding of the problem right across Europe. In terms of the Digital Services Act, under which this fine has been levied, the responsibility for looking at system problems lies with the European Commission. What we would all recognise as unsatisfactory is where you identify an unsafe product, a platform will take it down and you have a whack-a-mole problem where organisations like the CCPC identify unsafe products, they get taken down but there is a continuous stream. The question is that surely a platform must have systems in place in order to prevent them in the first place.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In the checks that the CCPC has done it was 70%. That is a huge volume. We see public announcements nearly on a weekly basis where products are being recalled by different outlets. I have yet to see any products being recalled by Temu or any other outlet. That is hugely concerning. It has been highlighted that there were dangerous toys and defective chargers and we know the serious impact that has. That is deeply concerning and I have yet to see any product recalls or any enforcement action other than that welcome action at EU level. What action is being taken in this State by the CCPC in the here and now in relation to those extremely dangerous products? That it is 70% is hugely concerning.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Nipping the bud was three or four years ago when these really took off.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
I agree. One of the biggest issues, and partly why the Digital Services Act was brought in, is the question of whether some companies are happy to have a business model that may not comply with the law but they will look for forgiveness after the event. We have seen and have been active in ensuring unsafe products are taken down. What we need and what we now have is a tool whereby the actual company, which does not have proper systems in place, can be fined. That was decided and we would agree with it to be done on a European basis. This is an issue right throughout Europe. Rather than having 27 countries take action we have the European Commission take action. We have talked today about deterrents. Hopefully, we will now see far fewer unsafe products on those platforms, and any platform that continues systemic issues with unsafe products will be punished even more in the future.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We hope that is so. That €200 million speaks volumes to the failure here in this State where the maximum fine is €1,000. I hope it does have the desired outcome for all of those reasons.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I have a few supplementary questions, if that is okay. There may only be so much Ms Butler can say about it but I will go back to try to understand. She mentioned that the €800,000 legal costs were associated with a seizure the CCPC undertook at the direction of the Italian competition authority. What can she say about that? Why did the Irish competition authority have to carry out an investigation at the behest of the Italian competition authority? If we play this the whole way through and Ryanair are ultimately successful in whatever challenges it has taken - God knows they could take the CCPC all the way to the Supreme Court and beyond, and probably will - €800,000 is a huge amount versus €80,000 the previous year. The costs are going to keep rising and rising. In response to my question, Ms Butler said they could potentially be recoverable against Ryanair if it were to lose. Has CCPC any recoverability from the Italian competition authority in relation to those costs?
Ms Úna Butler:
I thank the Deputy. Just to explain, it is not a CCPC investigation. It is an Italian competition authority investigation but under the European competition network that we have between competition agencies in Europe, we can carry out what are called fact-finding measures on behalf of each other. It is reciprocal; it works both ways. We sometimes carry out operations like this on behalf of other agencies and in other cases they do the same for us. For example, recently the German competition authority conducted a search on our behalf in the context of one of our investigations. It is very much a reciprocal regime. What we have seen here is a litigant that is willing to fight every issue all the way. In fact, some aspects of that and some motions are on appeal to the Court of Appeal at the moment. There is also extensive litigation in Italy in relation to the same investigation. That is a particular instance where we are faced with a litigant that is willing to use all the legal avenues that are open to it.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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However, the challenge for the Irish taxpayer is that it is on the Exchequer. How are we going to square that? Is this a new issue? It seems like a new issue in the sense of the costs this year versus last year. Could Ms Butler give me examples of previous years where there was such a jump in legal costs like we have seen from 2024? I presume there are more costs for 2025 of which we are not aware that she might give us now.
Ms Úna Butler:
To correct what I said earlier, the costs for us in 2024 for the Ryanair litigation were around €612,000. In 2025, they were €565,000, and the total litigation costs from 2024 up to date in 2026 are around €1.2 million. That is the total cost of that particular piece of litigation. I would say it is-----
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What budget does the CCPC get from the Department on an annual basis? What did it get, let us say, last year?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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So, €1 million of €35 million has gone towards these legal costs.
Ms Úna Butler:
Yes, over three years since 2024. The question the Deputy was asking is whether it is unusual. Yes, it is. The only equivalent would be if a merger decision were appealed to the High Court and then potentially an appeal went on to the Supreme Court. That is the type of case that would generate for us these types of large fees. It is fairly atypical. We have had previous incidences where we have conducted operations in Ireland on behalf of other agencies that have not resulted in challenges such as this.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Are the cost implications for competition authorities of this particular litigant or other litigants the subject of discussion at a European level?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
They are, but I would highlight it is even more of a discussion point in Ireland across other regulators such as the Data Protection Commission and Coimisiún na Meán, which take on big companies that want to challenge. Where you take enforcement action against a large company that is well resourced and that wants to challenge, as is their right, within the Irish system, you will spend a lot of time in court and you will rack up very large bills.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. McHugh think this challenge in terms of legal costs is somewhat unique to the Irish legal system?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Has he made recommendations on how to fix these problems, and what are they?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I am not talking about the legal sector and the legal cost, because they are separate to the actual challenge. It is not the cost associated with the challenge; I presume it is the challenge Mr. McHugh is talking about. The ability of the litigant to challenge every single action is the point he is making.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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So has he made recommendations in respect of that issue?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Mr. McHugh is making the point that this is somewhat unique to the jurisdiction of Ireland and not comparable to other European jurisdictions, such as Germany, where Ms Butler mentioned parallel investigations might be carried out. The issue of a huge mounting legal cost being imposed on this competition authority, is, Mr. McHugh said, unique to this jurisdiction, unless I took him up wrong there.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Forde, like a kid at the back of the class, is dying to jump in here. He should go on.
Mr. Colm Forde:
The Deputy has me pegged. To reference more broadly, the Minister, Deputy O'Callaghan, is bringing through reforms on justice and, separately, the Minister, Deputy Burke, had a group called the cost of business advisory forum which was looking at different aspects which add costs at every layer for Irish business and regulators. There were sections of that related to legal costs. It would look at it at a more holistic level than just, say, directly related to the CCPC's functions.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I do think the things - legal costs versus actual processes - are separate, but in any event it is obviously a mounting issue of concern.
I will conclude on this, just as Mr. Forde is here. He will remember the last time he was before the committee with the ODCE, he indicated that the publicjobs.ie was advertising for two appointments to the commission. Has that been completed yet or have they been appointed?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Related to the ODCE, now the Corporate Enforcement Authority, CEA, it is a matter of public record that the agency spent €333,851 on a WRC case against one single employee. Rightly or wrongly it is now a matter of public information reported in The Irish Times that there has been a settlement in those WRC proceedings and that this settlement is awaiting sanction from the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment and from the Department of public expenditure and reform. What can Mr. Forde say in relation to that?
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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On the costs associated with this WRC proceedings against one individual, and we were talking about legal costs in terms of the High Court and the Court of Appeal, would Mr. Forde agree with me that, at a WRC level, that is a very elevated cost? That is only the figure to date. We are not even getting into settlement costs and associated costs post settlement, etc.
James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Do the costs associated with this concern Mr. Forde at all? In fairness to the Italian competition authority, it was bound into carrying out an investigation against Ryanair. Whatever actions were taken in relation to these WRC proceedings, whatever legal advice it took on it or whatever approach it adopted was purely an executive function of the ODCE. Does Mr. Forde have any comment to make in respect of that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a few concluding questions. Going back to the issue of Temu and that whole area, I am deeply concerned that 70% of the companies on which the CCPC carried out checks were non-compliant. Will the CCPC outline some of those cases where compliance with necessary standards was not met? Will it give us some examples of what it discovered in those checks?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
Speaking generally, we would have various tests that we carry out on products, whether they are from platforms or within stores. With some products, such as toys, for example, we would check whether there were potential choking hazards and do various tests for those. Regarding electrical appliances, which the Cathaoirleach mentioned, it is a real problem. Again, there are standard safety requirements for electrical appliances and they need to meet those standards. Often, products off those platforms do not.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. McHugh mentioned that the CCPC has been successful in getting some products taken down. Some does not mean all. There are obviously products still for sale that people are buying being brought into this State that are non-compliant and that pose risks. That is concerning. Of the products that have been removed, what recourse is there for the consumer in terms of a product? Have any of these people been informed in the first instance that non-compliance has been assessed and determined? What role, if any, is there for the CCPC or for one of these bodies selling the products to inform the consumer that they have purchased a product that is non-compliant with whatever regulations? What rights does the consumer have to return the product and get a full refund?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding the products that have been removed, have they been recalled?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
As regards anything that would have been sold in Ireland to a consumer, it is the responsibility of the seller, in respect of products that have been identified as unsafe, to make every effort to identify the consumer and refund them, and to recall the products. We also publish information on those-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Have you published in relation to the products you have identified for sale by some of those companies?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
There is a huge amount of recalls on our website. This week we have launched an upgraded website, which has been a great success. One of the goals of our website is to connect with consumers, and safety recalls is one of the big ones. We want consumers to know what the products are.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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If I go on the CCPC's website now, there are products on it from Temu and some of these other-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is a concern, that there are people out there in the here and now with products they purchased in good faith that are high-risk. That is really concerning. The CCPC could perhaps look at its own messaging because that messaging is not going out to the public. It might look at whether it is sufficient just to put it on its website given the severity of the concerns there.
I want to touch on another area of concern, which is the misleading packaging of food that is sold in our shops and supermarkets. On many products you will see a guaranteed Irish label on it with the Irish flag, etc.
If we dig down into it we will find that the beef could have originated in Brazil or the fish could have been caught in the North Sea and it is being sold as Irish because it is processed here in some way. What role, if any, does the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, have in the regulation, monitoring and enforcement around that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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None whatsoever in relation to consumer protection.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I want to touch on the whole issue of price gouging, which is twofold. I will speak in a moment about the fuel industry, but first I will touch on hotels and tickets. A number of examples have been given here by members. As was widely reported, my colleague Deputy Pearse Doherty raised the price gouging with Oasis tickets. Deputy Doherty was able to go online and get tickets for Oasis in Italy and hotel accommodation and it was working out €200 cheaper at that stage. There are huge volumes of price gouging. There is another dimension that was widely reported when Taylor Swift was playing here back in 2023. A number of people who had made bookings with hotel providers in the State before the announcement of her dates had their accommodation cancelled and then readvertised afterwards for triple and quadruple the original price. Is that an area of concern? Did the commission carry out any investigations? It was widely reported at the time and I am sure there are other examples like that. Has the commission carried out any investigations around allegations of that nature?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We have received, and do receive, many complaints in that space; for example, where bookings are cancelled. It raises huge ethical questions. From a consumer law point of view, it brings up the question of what was the contractual arrangement and what was the right. Obviously, there are rights to cancel contracts. We get calls about these scenarios because they drive consumers demented. They feel it is really unfair, and as we touched on earlier-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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As well as it being unethical, what has been done to ensure that breaches of contract are dealt with?
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We look at them. Often it comes down to a question of contractual law. Often the party legally has the right to cancel a contract. All of us might find these specific scenarios unfair, and the general public will feel the same, but we may not necessarily be able to take it to law-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We are not able to take any enforcement because-----
Mr. Brian McHugh:
It is contractual and it is not a misleading breach of the law. It may be within their contractual right to do so. On the other hand, consumers have certain rights in certain circumstances to cancel under the contract so it can be a complicated issue in terms of consumer law while it is very clear in terms of the broader view on it.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I will move on to fuel. I listened to what Mr. McHugh's colleague, Mr. Gray, had to say about some of the reporting and the investigations the commission carried out. Basically, the commission is saying that there is nothing to see here, that we need to move on, that there is no issue here, and that it all balances out when it goes up and comes down. I want to talk about the real experience of consumers out there. I have seen it on budget day in previous budgets when an increase in excise was supposed to kick in at midnight but, on forecourts along the N11, the prices increased immediately in line with the excise increase. The real experience for people watching prices on a daily basis certainly contradicts what the witnesses are saying here. I do not know how the commission can stand over that piece of work, given the real experiences of people such as the real example I have given around excise increases kicking in. Sometimes the prices go up on forecourts immediately after the budget is announced in here. That is gouging and profiteering.
Mr. Brian McHugh:
We hear this from consumers on our helpline and personally when we are out and about. There is huge anger around it. In 2022 with the excise cut, we looked at a huge number of fuel stations. We demanded their data for hourly price changes. It took a month. This was a massive study and took a huge amount of our resources because we felt it was so important. Day by day, one sees certain things happening with individual petrol stations but in the big picture are there significant increases in profits? We did not see any. We understand and we hear the very real complaints and anger but when we look at the market in great detail with hourly data, we do not see big increases in profits. One of the things we know, and we can see it in the numbers, is that when you are the cheapest petrol station in an area, your volumes increase significantly and consumers switch to you. That is what we see and that is why the market is relatively competitive. It is not perfect and we are not saying there are no issues. Sometimes as a consumer body it is really great to have a really strong story; for example, where we want the taxi industry to change. When we want change to happen, or when there is a problem, it is great when we have a solution that can bring about consumer benefits. It is tougher when we are saying to people "Actually we have looked at it and there is not a big problem".
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The difficulty that people face is that there are no alternatives in some places. Some petrol stations have a monopoly. In my view, there is a cartel in some areas. There might be three or four garages in close proximity and they all increase their petrol prices at the same time, even though they might be different brands or companies. This is definitely concerning. I do not know whether that has been looked at locally or from a national perspective. Mr. McHugh mentioned excise coming down. When excise is going up, however, that increase is applied immediately and in many cases before the 12 o'clock implementation point on budget night. Has that been looked at?
Mr. Geoffrey Gray:
We did a general look at the market. Mr. McHugh has spoken about some of the research in 2022. We have also looked at the margins of the largest fuel service providers in the State. They are between 2% and 4%, which is quite low in relative terms. The Cathaoirleach is right that competition does vary in the sector by local area. Some local areas have fewer competitors than others. In those areas one might see them competing less vigorously on price. It is one of the things that we take really seriously as part of our mergers function as well. Last year in the Circle K and Pelco merger we required divestments of local service area stations in order to ensure that competition within those markets was maintained. It is something we take very seriously in all fuel services mergers that we look at.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. That concludes my questions. I do not think what we have heard will change the views of people on the ground. Unfortunately, this position is the real-life experience of a lot of people. That concludes our engagement for today. I thank the chairman and his officials from the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission for attending here today. I also thank the officials from the Department of Enterprise, Tourism and Employment, along with the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, for their attendance once again. We will follow up any agreed actions that members raised during the course of the meeting. The committee will next meet on Thursday, 11 June, with the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation.