John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Everyone is welcome to today's meeting. We have received apologies from Deputy Paul Murphy.

Before we proceed, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through. Members are reminded of the provisions of Standing Order 226, whereby the committee shall refrain from inquiring into the merits of a policy or policies of the Government or a Minister of the Government, or the merits of the objectives of such policies. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House.

The agenda for today is to discuss the minutes, accounts and statements, correspondence and upcoming meetings. We will then suspend and begin our engagement with officials from the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission at 10.30 a.m.

The minutes of the meeting of 21 May 2026 were agreed by the committee in its private session. They will be published on the committee's website in due course.

One set of accounts and financial statements was laid between 18 and 22 May 2026. It is due to be considered today. We are joined by the secretary and director of audit, Ms Colette Drinan, representing the Comptroller and Auditor General, who is a permanent witness to the committee. I ask Ms Drinan to address this matter before opening the floor to members.

Ms Colette Drinan:

The set of accounts laid is in respect of the National Asset Management Agency for the financial year ending December 2025. It was certified on 30 March 2026 and received a clear audit opinion.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Do members want to raise any issues? No. Do members agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Is that agreed? Agreed.

I will move to correspondence. There are a number of B items of correspondence to consider. These have been received by Departments and public bodies. The first is No. R2026/0258. It is correspondence received from Ms Kate Duggan, the chief executive of the Child and Family Agency, Tusla, in response to the committee's request for further information regarding the organisation's financial guidance and operational procedures for aftercare services. It is dated 15 May 2026. Do members wish to discuss anything in relation to that? No. Is it agreed to note and publish the item? Agreed.

No. R2026/0260 is correspondence received from Mr. Colm O'Reardon, Secretary General of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, in response to the committee's request for further information, dated 18 May 2026. Do members wish to raise any issues or points? No. Is it agreed to note and publish the item? Agreed.

No. R2026/0266 is correspondence received from Mr. Ian Drennan, chairperson of the Corporate Enforcement Authority, CEA, in response to the committee's request for further information regarding HR consultancy arrangements, dated 19 May 2026.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I will come in on that. It is very positive to see that the consultancy arrangement for human resources has been very constructive. I think that is with the Garda Representative Association, GRA. Could we write to the GRA to see if it has been happy with the consultancy that has happened and the toxic work culture that was described in the letter previously before the consultancy arrangements?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is that agreed? Agreed. Is it agreed to note and publish the item, along with the proposed action? Agreed.

The next item is-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We were given some information around the additional appointment of commissioners. I presume at some point we will be doing a report about the hearings at the competition authority. It would be useful for us to have some clarity from the Department about that recruitment process for additional commissioners. There was some concern among members that the commission was one person. I would like us to write to the relevant Department or to the CEA and ask how that competition or recruitment process for the appointment of additional commissioners is going.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We can do that. Is that agreed? Agreed.

No. R2026/0267 is correspondence received from Mr. David Moloney, Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitisation, responding to the committee's request for further information, dated 19 May 2026. Do members wish to discuss?

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I previously asked at this committee about €19 million and where it was coming from. This letter does not seem to give me the response I was looking for. I am not satisfied with it and would like to write again to ask for a breakdown of where the money is coming from. There was no budget. I would also like to see, going forward, if money being added to accounts will be sought.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Deputy mean a Supplementary Estimate?

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes. I would like to write again and ask Mr. Moloney if he could give me a detailed breakdown of where the €19 million came from. That would be fantastic.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Do any other members wish to comment? No. Is it agreed that we follow up with the Department and try to get further clarification?

The departmental officials will be before us at the next meeting on 11 June.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We might hold that question until then.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I suggest that we proceed and do not hold the question. The issue dominated a lot of the conversation at the previous meeting.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The officials will know in advance that it may rear its head again next week.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We can write to them in advance of our engagement asking that they have that information to hand.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, so that they are aware of it. I thank the Cathaoirleach.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is it agreed to note and publish the item along with the agreed action? Agreed.

Next is No. R2026/0268, which is correspondence received from Dr. Eamonn Kelly, chief executive officer of Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI, responding to the committee's request dated 19 May 2026 for further information on expenditure on media training. Do members wish to raise any issues regarding that correspondence?

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does such the media training arise right across the board? I wonder whether the Department of public expenditure has any guidelines on the use of public moneys in this regard for all bodies. We might put that question to the Department in advance of the next meeting. It seems like a lot of money to be spending on media training before people come into this committee. I would like to know whether other organisations or Government bodies, right across the board, are doing the same. It seems to me an incredible waste of taxpayers' money. All people have to do when they come in here is tell us the truth.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That was agreed previously by members. We have written to the Department of public expenditure seeking clarification on it but have not yet received a response. We will return to the issue. The clerk is checking that. The question I have concerns the figure of €53,000-odd for media training. There is a line in the correspondence stating that half that figure was for media training, which kind of conflicts with previous information we were given. It is a little confusing and not quite clear. If training expenditure constituted less than half of the overall expenditure, I am not sure whether the figure of €53,933 is the total legal bill, including training expenditure. We might write back seeking clarification on that figure. There were some concerns regarding the first performance of the IFI representatives at the committee. As I recall, they indicated the cost of the first media training given was just over €1,000. I propose that we seek a little more information, breaking down how that figure was arrived at and who availed of what training.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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It might be worth flagging with the Department of public expenditure Deputy Bennett's question on the previous occasion as to whether there is centralised training available through the public system on preparation for participation in Oireachtas committees and media. Employees in every walk of life are entitled to training and such engagement is not a normal part of their work. What we are flagging here is something different, which is the use of multiple so-called training sessions to prepare for specific information being provided at this committee. That is not training. There is a key difference. There should be centralised training for all Government bodies and guidelines in this area; that should be available to people. However, that is very different from using an outside agency to construct information that is being put before us. We are trying to get to the bottom of that.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is it agreed that we should seek further clarification on those costs? Even if the media training only accounted for half of the sum of nearly €54,000, it is still a huge amount of money and, it seems to me, an unusual way of going about securing media training. If it was felt such training was needed, it should have been done through an existing legal agreement. There are still concerns in this regard. Mr. Barry Fox had five sessions in advance of his meeting with us, during which he spoke for less than two minutes in totality. The way this was done seems very strange and unusual.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps the advice was to say nothing.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, maybe that was the basis of the training.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I apologise if I missed this but I understood we had agreed to write to the Department of public expenditure about training in general, seeking any guidance on that and asking whether the training provision might be increased if it was considered not to be appropriate. Did we receive a response to that?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We have just been discussing that. We have written to the Department raising that specific issue and the clerk has confirmed we have not received any response.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is important that there be a consistent approach in order that we do not have to deal with issues like this.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We will follow up on that again with the Department. Is it agreed to note and publish that particular correspondence? Agreed.

The next matter for discussion is No. R2026/0270, which is correspondence received from Mr. Doncha O'Sullivan, Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Home Affairs and Migration, responding to the committee's request, dated 20 May 2026, for further information regarding international protection accommodation services, IPAS, accommodation and deportation flights. Deputies Geoghegan and McGrath are indicating they wish to comment.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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We probably have reached the end of the road in terms of questioning the Department about its understanding versus how the Dublin Region Homeless Executive, DRHE, views the situation. Sometimes, correspondence reads more tersely than the reality but I find it a source of frustration that the Department is still, to some extent, half questioning and not necessarily fully accepting the DRHE's statistics on the people who enter homelessness in the services it provides. It is not in the DRHE's interest to put forward facts that are not accurate and correct. Having served as a Dublin city councillor, I am very familiar with the services the executive operates, provides and supports. All it is trying to do is ensure there is joined-up thinking in terms of how the Department of justice manages the flow of exit of refugees who have been granted status in this country and their entry into secure long-term accommodation. It is in nobody's interest that families would leave an IPAS centre and then present themselves six months later to the DRHE.

All I can hope for is that through our questioning and deliberations, the Department is taking this issue seriously and a more joined-up approach will be arrived at between IPAS and the DRHE to reduce or eliminate this issue. The expenditure is all public money, whether it is coming from the Department of justice's Vote or the Vote of the Department of housing. It all goes to support these families. What we want is to have a much better situation in terms of the flow of people such that when refugees are granted status, they do not then go on to increase the numbers entering homelessness.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The point I want to raise is not on that particular issue. Is that okay?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, the Deputy may raise any issue to do with the correspondence.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The details we received on the deportation flights are missing some significant information. We have details on eight flights, including the cost of chartering the plane and the number of gardaí attending in each case. We do not have information on how many deportees were on each flight or the associated costs, including gardaí attendance, medical services, interpreters and so on. The information provided is quite limited. I propose that we ask for more details. If I do a quick totting up, the expenditure amounts to approximately €2 million alone on chartering eight flights. Critically, we do not have information on how many deportees were involved in each flight. With the agreement of the committee, we need to ask that question as well as seeking out the costs associated with the flights, including for gardaí attendance, medical provision, interpretation services, etc.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Geoghegan is probably right that we have come to the end of being able to go back and forth between the DRHE and the Department of justice.

I think it was I who introduced the DRHE figures to that meeting. At that meeting the Department representatives pushed back heavily on that data. In their correspondence to us I note that they have not rejected the data that has been put to them. They talk about having better data sharing and so on. From my assessment, the most solid data that is before this committee is that of the DRHE and not that of the Department of justice. Our report should reflect that. The reason is that there has been a growing discussion on the impact of migration and emergency accommodation provision. It is really important that the facts of this are reflected in any report because they do have an interplay with the priority we give to people in emergency accommodation, particularly for family homelessness because we are trying to end family homelessness. There is a priority for people in some local authorities. It is really important when we are deciding between these two streams of correspondence that we come down on the side of the one that is the most factual and the most solid. To me that is the figures from the DRHE. I believe the Department has not successfully challenged them, either in person or in correspondence.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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On this issue and to follow up on what Deputy McGrath mentioned about deportation flights, this is something I have been trying to get some information on. I share some of the concerns about the limited information we have received here. In my view we still have not got an explanation but some of the numbers of gardaí on the flights seem excessive. A lot of the information is publicly available and I have done a brief search as to how many deportees were on each of the flights. On the South African flight, which cost €719,642, there were 133 gardaí. It has been reported publicly that there were only 63 individuals on that particular flight. It may also have included children. Another flight to Poland and Lithuania cost €150,871 and there were 113 gardaí on that flight. It has been reported publicly that 33 people were being deported on that particular flight. The figures go right through. The flight to Georgia in November 2025 cost €230,000 with 117 gardaí on it, with 52 people being deported and seven children reported on that flight as well. Obviously, security on any flight is paramount but I do not think we have been given a rationale as to how those figures are arrived at. The Department says that any security costs are borne by An Garda Síochána through Eurostat, I think, but we need to get those figures because there are legitimate concerns when communities are crying out for gardaí in their communities and then we see huge numbers on some of these flights. We we need to get the full data. Some of these flights are one way, with a huge number of people travelling out, but the gardaí have to make their way back and those costs are not included in this. I think there are three or four flights there that are one way. We need to get the total cost for the Garda and the other agencies involved, such as medical, interpreters and human rights. I am not saying that they are not needed but just to ensure we get a line of sight of that. If there was overtime involved for the gardaí, how long did the gardaí stay out there before returning? It is of interest and concern but we need more insight on this information. Again, it is not questioning the essential need for security on any flight, or indeed the necessity for deportation flights when everything else has failed. It is a case of trying to ensure there is value for money and fully transparent processes and procedures in that.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I do not want the message going out from here that we are against these flights. People might have their own opinions but, ultimately, we need to do these flights. There were not enough of these flights done for years. I would welcome deportation flights if there are criminals on board and people on board who should not have been here. If people failed the due process, they should have left the country themselves. They should be sent out of the country. I do not think anybody should question that if they are not entitled to be here. We should be careful of the message going out.

While we can question the specifics, as a group we also have to be consistent with what we question operationally and how we question individual groups. I have no problem if we have been given the information that we can question but I think it is a question for ourselves as a committee. We can ask about the basis and what are the parameters, but ultimately if we are going to be sitting here questioning how many gardaí per person were on flights and how many dangerous criminals might have been on board, would members want a friend or family member going with a dangerous criminal if there was one garda per two dangerous criminals and if something happened? For us to be sitting here questioning that over a piece in the newspaper, I think we have to be very careful as a group that we do not question the basis. We can question €2.3 billion being spent on a hospital. We can question €400,000 being spent on a shed, but if we sit here questioning how many individual people were on a flight with gardaí, then we have to be conscious of what we are discussing with the level of knowledge we have. As a committee we have an important job to do and we can ask what are the parameters and the rules around it, and we can question some of those elements with the Garda, but going into specifics on individual flights risks sending the wrong message from the committee about the level of work we are doing and whether we are just looking for attention.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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We are obviously not here to examine the merits of the flights as a policy but we should be following the money. We should get a breakdown of all associated costs, some of which the Chair has itemised there. All we have is the cost of the charter plane, but they clearly do not bring the gardaí back on a charter plane as that would be a total waste of money. What is the cost of flying 133 gardaí back and are there accommodation costs associated with that? We can only truly assess the cost of this policy if we get all of those costs. We should seek those costs and get a breakdown.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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If we are seeking those costs, can we also get the cost of keeping those potential criminals, or some of those people, in the country as well? We could then weigh one off the other. One must be careful of looking at something in isolation.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I do not think anyone here is questioning the merits or otherwise, and we are looking for a breakdown-----

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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But if we only look at one set of information to compare-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I would imagine that some are not criminals on those flights-----

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There are.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Unless the Deputy is questioning whether we ask for that information, I do not think anyone is questioning the status-----

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I just think if we are going to ask for a breakdown-----

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----other than these are individuals who have failed to get status here within the State. It is very much not questioning the policy; it is questioning the costs associated to ensure there is value for money for the taxpayers.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Then let us also look for the cost of keeping them in the country and then we can match one set of figures off against the other, and then we will have the proper discussion.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Are we happy to move on? Are we agreed to follow up with the course of action and get some clarity on some of those issues? Agreed. Is it agreed to note and publish this item of correspondence? Agreed.

No. R2026/0274 is correspondence dated 22 May 2026, received from Ms Vivienne Flood, head of public affairs at RTÉ, responding to the committee's request for information on RTÉ's expenditure and governance arrangements relating to transport services. Do members wish to raise any issues concerning this correspondence?

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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We live in hope that RTÉ will be taken under the control of the Comptroller and Auditor General very soon. It is one story after another and they seem to be a law unto themselves. This is just the latest debacle, so the sooner that happens the better.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I will make a couple of points from my own perspective. Unfortunately, it is a drip-feed of information coming from RTÉ, with extravagant expenditure on limousines in this case on top of other recent issues of concern within RTÉ. We have agreed to bring RTÉ in before us before the summer recess. I am sure there will be a lot of questions at that point. This is along with the necessary legislation going through the House, and it is hoped that will be sooner rather than later.

There are a number of questions stemming from this because in RTÉ’s communication with us, it cites that the people using the limousine services were VIPs attending shows, etc, dignitaries and other people. It does not go into detail on that. It has been stated publicly that some presenters also availed of these limousine services. That is an issue of concern for me given the two-tier structures within RTÉ in relation to some presenters getting perks and Mercs such as in this case, it appears, while others were very much second tier. We should write back to RTÉ and see can we get a full breakdown. It states between 2021 and 2026 there were 1,100 plus limousine journeys. We should ask for a breakdown as to who availed of that service on what basis, who made the decisions, and ultimately, what structure was in place to authorise the use of the limousine, and a breakdown on cost per journey.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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We could ask whether there was a policy around whether a person was a limousine-qualified celebrity or whether like us, we got a taxi. Either which way there should have been a policy. It should not have been a subjective thing.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Deputy making an argument that she should get a limousine?

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I have no interest in a limousine; I am very happy with the taxi.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I agree. Is it agreed that we ask what the policy is, who makes the decision, what is the clearing mechanism for it and when that particular contract that expires? RTÉ gave a timeframe that it has been extended by two years, and the current status of that particular-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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In anticipation of the fact that there may not be a policy, we should ask what is the timeline to introduce a policy to bring clarity to this area.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is that course of action agreed? Agreed. We will follow up with RTÉ. Is it agreed to note and publish that item of correspondence? Agreed. That concludes the B items for discussion today.

We move on to our work programme. On 11 June, the committee is due to engage with officials from the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitisation.

Aon Ghnó Eile? Are there any other items which members wish to raise at this point?

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Over the past two years my colleague Deputy Ward has been trying to bring legislation before the Dáil to regulate the use of nitrous oxide canister. That did not happen, but it has now been highlighted that Fingal County Council, for example, spent almost €100,000 on the disposal of these gas canisters, €4,900 in 2024 and €4,000 in 2025. It has also been brought to my attention that the Government has committed €3 million to spend on waste management of the nitrous oxide canisters which are seized by customs, whereas had it used Deputy Ward's constructive idea and actually regulated the system, we would not be in this place now where we need to dispose of these canisters. I would like to write to the Minister and ask why this amount is being committed by the Government, that is, €3,000 to dispose of gas canisters, when it should have regulated the system in the first instance so the gas canisters were not there. We should write to the Departments of environment or justice to ask why they have decided to commit €3 million for waste disposal of nitrous oxide canisters seized by customs when this could have been irrelevant. That money would not have needed to be committed if the idea and legislation had been worked on and committed to to provide regulation in this regard It is a health matter of. I am outraged that the Government will not commit to regulating the use of nitrous oxide canisters.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Do any other members wish to come in?

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I recall that was a topic of discussion with Revenue. We could ask Revenue if it has any updated information, statistics or findings, just to tie it up. There was a huge increase in the numbers in 2023 or 2024. We could bring representatives in to add a bit of colour for us.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There was also a proposed working group at the time. I am not too sure if that has happened either. We could ask about that.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We can ask the relevant Department for a briefing on it because it is an issue of concern in all communities. Disposed nitrous oxide canisters are visible. I have had reports in my constituency of kids under the age of 12 using these canisters, and we know the health implications. Deputy Neville is correct. When we had Revenue representatives before us, they gave us statistics. Huge volumes of nitrous oxide are being brought into the country, and not for the intended purpose, which is the catering industry. I cited some websites that are readily available for anyone to access. It is clear for anyone to see who they are actually targeting and it is not the catering industry; it is households, kids and young people.

We can ask for a briefing note from the Department detailing which actions, if any, are being taken to address this. There is also a concern in terms of local authorities. Some local authorities have policies in place for collection and disposal of canisters. My own, for example, in County Wicklow will not accept nitrous oxide canisters because it does not know how or where it can dispose of them. We should ask, from a Department perspective, what memo is going out to local authorities, and if €3 million is being allocated, whether it is going to be dispersed among all local authorities and what plan is in place. It is an issue of huge concern. Is it agreed we follow up with the relevant Departments in on that? Agreed.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Are we adding to our work programme some work on nitrous oxide?

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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No. We are just looking for some clarification around this. We are not adding anything to our work programme. Revenue voluntarily disclosed that information to us. There are huge volumes of canisters.

Unless there is any other business, that concludes this session. We will suspend for five minutes.