Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from Deputies Butterly and Boyd Barrett. Senator Boyhan will be substituting for Senator McCarthy and Deputy Ó Snodaigh is deputising for Deputy Gould. Senator McCormack is joining us online. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in meetings.

Tailte Éireann was established in December 2022 as a statutory body bringing together the Property Registration Authority, the Valuation Office and Ordnance Survey Ireland. Its core functions include maintaining the national land registry, providing accurate mapping and geospatial data and delivering independent property valuations for the State. Through these roles it supports the functioning of the property market and provides essential data and services to the Government, businesses and the public.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to consider these and related matters with the following representatives of Tailte Éireann: Mr. Liam O'Sullivan, chief executive officer; Ms Liz Pope, chief operations officer for registration; and Mr. Danny O'Sullivan, chief corporate affairs officer. Before we begin, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make in their contributions. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Mr. O'Sullivan's opening statement has been circulated to members. Is it agreed that it be published to the committee's website? Agreed. I invite Mr. O'Sullivan to make his statement.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to appear before the committee today. I welcome the opportunity to provide an overview of the operations and ongoing development of Tailte Éireann. I am joined by my colleagues Ms Liz Pope, chief operations officer for registration, and Mr. Danny O'Sullivan, chief corporate affairs officer.

Tailte Éireann was formally established under the Tailte Éireann Act 2022 on 1 March 2023 through the merger of the former Property Registration Authority, Ordnance Survey Ireland and the Valuation Office. Today, the organisation comprises approximately 1,000 staff, operating across multiple locations throughout the country, delivering critical land, property and geospatial services to the State, the economy and the public. The first year of the organisation was focused primarily on formative integration, that is, bringing together people, systems, processes and cultures, while establishing the governance structures and change programmes required to begin the long-term integration of the organisation. During that period, we also developed our first statement of strategy to provide a clear direction for the new organisation.

A particularly important milestone in year one was the reorganisation of the overall staffing and management structure. That exercise identified a significant number of legacy vacancies across the organisation, alongside operational pressures and service delivery challenges. As a result, we undertook a comprehensive review of all operating functions and service provision levels to identify the areas requiring immediate intervention and reform. In response, a number of strategic initiatives were launched, including an accelerated recruitment programme to fill key vacancies and the implementation of initial operational process changes specifically designed to improve productivity and service delivery.

In 2024, we recruited more than 200 new staff into the organisation and began to see measurable progress across all our services. Through a combination of recruitment, operational reform and capital investment, we increased outputs, enhanced organisational capacity and improved our ability to respond to rising levels of demand. In 2025, our focus continued strongly on recruitment, training and capability development to ensure we have the expertise necessary to meet our strategic objectives into the future.

In 2005, across registration services, we processed a record 314,000-plus applications while making significant progress in reducing the number of aged applications on hand. Within our surveying function, we launched two new surveying aircraft specifically designed for advanced aerial sensor technology, enabling us to capture more accurate geospatial data faster than ever before. In valuation, we processed more than 6,000 revision applications in 2025 and achieved a significant reduction in aged applications. I am particularly pleased to report that, this year, we cleared the aged revaluation arrears entirely and are now operating in line with the standard of no application for revision being older than six months. We continue to make strong progress on reducing the arrears within registration.

In 2025 and through to the beginning of this year, we saw the beginning of the relocation to our new headquarters at Smithfield Hall, providing a modern, state-of-the-art working environment that reflects our ambition and supports the future growth of the organisation.

Alongside operational improvements, we have commenced a number of major strategic projects. Project Papercut will fundamentally transform the registration process through digitisation and the progressive removal of all paper-based workflows from the operation. In surveying, we are developing a new national mapping specification to maximise the value of the essential geospatial data we produce. In valuation, we have commenced the final phase of the first national revaluation programme, bringing greater transparency and equity to the local authority rating system.

Importantly, alongside service delivery improvements, we have invested significantly in organisational culture, including developing shared values and behaviours and engaging continually with our staff through town-hall meetings and workshops to ensure Tailte Éireann is an organisation where people are proud to work and proud of the services they provide. In addition, we are the custodians of archives documenting more than 300 years of Irish land history. We have developed a strategy to preserve and promote this uniquely important national archive.

As we begin the development of our next statement of strategy, our focus remains firmly on the customer, clearing all remaining arrears, continually improving service delivery and building a strong foundation for the future development of new services to meet the evolving needs of the State. We look forward to engaging with the committee.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. O'Sullivan. I will now take contributions from members, each of whom will have seven minutes for questions and answers. Senator Casey has the first slot.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. O'Sullivan for his presentation. I acknowledge the ongoing progress being made by Tailte Éireann. He said that in its first year, it dealt with 314,000 applications. What was the normal number of applications dealt with prior to that?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We have the detailed figures to hand. I ask my colleague Ms Pope to provide the application numbers.

Ms Liz Pope:

In 2024, the total number of applications for registration was 262,000. That number has been rising year on year since 2021 and continues to rise annually.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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There was an increase of more 50,000 year on year.

Ms Liz Pope:

Yes.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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What sorts of process changes and operational reforms have been introduced to the system to allow for that increase?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We looked at a range of things. The fundamental action we took was to map out every single process, that is, how everything is done, in registration. That threw up opportunities where there was not standardisation.

It also threw up opportunities where there were unnecessary processes and showed us the level of vacancy we had in particular areas of expertise, especially in the area of digital mapping, which is critical in terms of the first registration of any new properties. That then led us on to what is the most optimal way we can do this while it is still completely paper based. We implemented that new singular process right across the organisation. That gave a significant gain in productivity and output. The critical thing for us is that figure of 314,000 processed applications last year, which is the first time in over ten years that we have processed in a year more than what came in. It allowed us to tackle the very significant arrears that had built up over many years.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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What are the arrears at now? Does Mr. O'Sullivan have a figure on that?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Ms Pope might have the actual figure.

Ms Liz Pope:

As of yesterday, it was 82,300.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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If Tailte Éireann maintains the progress it is making, it should have the arrears nearly wiped out this year, provided everything goes according to plan.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

In early 2024, we were at over 120,000 in arrears, so we have brought down the arrears significantly while dealing with the massive increase in demand. We believe we will get that down further again during this year.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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I will move to commercial rates valuations. What is the timeframe for getting a valuation on a new property that has been built?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

As of today, we have reached the target. The legislative requirement is that any revision submitted by a local authority that is in order should be processed within six months. We are now on that target.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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What does Mr. O'Sullivan mean when he says "in order"?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

It means there is not some flaw in what is being sent through or that it is not a property that should not be rated.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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I have been through the valuation process, so I have some understanding of it. In 2016, I sat on the committee with Deputy Ó Broin when we brought in changes to the legislation that allowed local authorities to do an initial valuation on some commercial properties prior to the Valuation Office putting the actual valuation on it. Am I correct in that statement?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I am not aware of that. I do not really want to speak for the local authorities.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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That is okay. I am trying to remember. Due to the delay in the valuation by the Valuation Office back then, I think the legislation indicated that a local authority could put an assessment of commercial valuation on it so that it would not be at a loss of the rateable base for that period.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

What I can say is that when Tailte Éireann was founded and we established what was on hand everywhere, and what was here that should not be here, the valuation backlog went back as far as 2012. Revisions submitted as far back as 2012 had not been processed. I do not want to repeat myself, but that backlog is now completely cleared. The oldest case in the building, as of now, is from last December, which is within the six months that is specified in the legislation. We believe we will be able to maintain that level now.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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My final question is about the revaluation in each county. How does Mr. O'Sullivan see that working out in the future? In Wicklow we waited nearly 40 years for a revaluation.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes, Wicklow did. The last place to be done in the national revaluation programme is my home county of Cork, and Cork city. We have now started the revaluation process there. They are the last two local authorities. That means the whole country will be done under a revaluation programme. The current legislation says everything should be done within a ten-year timeframe. We will move back around in the next six months to plan the second national revaluation programme and then that should run on from there.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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Is Tailte Éireann in a position to meet that target of ten years?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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The lag sometimes is hard for businesses to manage when they go from a 40-year delay in a revaluation and trying to get an understanding. I still think the commercial rates system is a bit antiquated. It is very hard for businesses to fully understand how it is calculated. For example, for industries located in a small rural area where there is nothing in the surrounding area to give a commercial square metre rate, how is it balanced out if a square metre rate is picked from an adjoining town that could be 20 km away from it and with which it has no relationship?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I am not a valuer but I have a good understanding of the system and the experts have explained it to me. There is a superb team of professional valuers within Tailte Éireann. They are benchmarking this with other countries that operate a similar commercial rating system. A huge amount of data and research has been done to establish what the commercial rates should be. There is organisational turnover, profitability and referencing similar types of establishments and properties, either within a town or, if there is not a town, in a referable frame. A lot of work goes into educating ratepayers on how it actually works. When we come to a revaluation there is a significant outreach. We have just launched some new instructional videos on our website that explain how revaluation actually works. It does not explain the mathematical calculations but it does explain how it operates and how it is done.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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I am out of time.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. O'Sullivan and his team for being here. The creation of Tailte Éireann was unanimously supported by all of the parties in the previous Oireachtas, and we continue to support it.

I have four specific areas on which I am interested in getting some additional information. When the legislation was originally progressed through the Oireachtas, the Minister at the time said one of the benefits of bringing the three organisations together was efficiency. He referred to efficiencies in terms of scale and process, but also, potentially, in terms of the current expenditure to run the organisation. Now that Tailte Éireann is in its fifth year or so, has that been the case? Does it cost more to run the organisation now than when there were three separate organisations? If that is the case, is that because of increased workload or functions? Could Mr. O'Sullivan give us a little sense of how that has transpired?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

In terms of the operating cost, if we take the operating line budget for the three legacy organisations, the Tailte Éireann Vote now is larger than those three, but it is a much bigger organisation and it is driven by growth in workload. I will give an example of that. We provide a significant level of support to other State agencies and Departments on the valuation of State properties. We have expanded that team significantly to take on even more work. It is not a very good like-for-like comparison but, mathematically, it is larger than what it was when it was three separate entities.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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In and of itself, that is not a bad thing. I presume some of that growth has been in new areas of employment, but there still have been some inefficiencies in terms of the administrative end of things as a consequence of the merger.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Certainly. In all three areas, if we had not done the efficiency drive and the whole process re-engineering, the organisation would be even larger than it is today. We gained enormous levels of efficiency by removing unnecessary processes or making processes better. We have done quite an amount of automation, particularly in the surveying area, especially now with our new aircraft and new sensors that allow us to automate a lot of the capture on the ground. As we further automate the registration function, we will get significant gains in productivity and efficiency. What we are aiming for is speed for the customer. That is the primary driver of this.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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For the benefit of the committee, would Mr. O'Sullivan have to hand the most recent Vote for Tailte Éireann, and how that would compare with the final year of the three legacy organisations?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I think the Vote for this year is just under €100 million. I do not recall what the combined Votes were for 2022 but it is certainly something we can get.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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It would be useful if Mr. O'Sullivan could share that with the committee. I will move on to Land Direct. It is a service we all use in different ways. It is hugely beneficial. Two queries often come up, both in my own constituency and regularly with colleagues. Mr. O'Sullivan dealt with the backlog in response to Senator Casey's questions. The second question then is the processing time. Could he give us some sense of what the processing time is for new registrations? Does he have some targets where he would like to see that go now that the backlog is under control?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

There is a rather long answer to this one and I will ask Ms Pope to contribute. There are over 130 different application types and on top of that, we also operate a copy instrument service and so on. There are different processing times depending on the type of application. A first registration obviously takes the longest because it is the most complex and involved. I will ask Ms Pope to provide more detail.

Ms Liz Pope:

There are different kinds of applications. For example, our e-discharges and e-registration service runs at 80% of our total intake. We would process them within two to five days and that is fairly seamless. In terms of an application for a so-called ordinary case, which is one that does not require subdivision, if that is in order when it comes in to us, we can process it within five days. About 60% of our work comprises transfers, releases and mortgages, so the bulk of our work comes within those timeframes.

Outside of that, there are longer processing times in relation to subdivision work but that is speeding up now as a result of our recent accelerated recruitment drive and the improved processes that we put in place in our process improvement plan. We are working our way through the backlog of cases in that area. A first registration, where we have an examination of title within the registries, is complex work. We serve notices, and we have objections and they can be quasi-judicial and can often take a long time to process. We work very much in collaboration with our customers and the Law Society to try to expand our knowledge base, with webinars that support practitioners in preparing an application for first registration. If there is any particular difficulty where that is a barrier within the property market, we will expedite, where necessary.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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It would be useful if Tailte Éireann would share a simple, single-page breakdown of the different types of applications and the average processing times.

Obviously the tricky cases are those where there are disputes. Part of the challenge with some of the disputes many of us deal with is that the information provided on the Tailte Éireann site is not evidence of legal title but is a general outline. Does Tailte Éireann have visibility on the volume or frequency of disputes where the title is unclear or the boundary lines are unclear? Separate from the issue of title disputes going to court, does Tailte Éireann have some sense of the best way to try to improve and resolve that process so that they are done as seamlessly as possible?

Ms Liz Pope:

We have a remedial unit that deals with those kinds of queries. In terms of the volume coming through that unit, between 2024 and now, it has dealt with approximately 2,500 applications for boundary rectification or amendment. That is the volume of work that comes through. Some of those are fairly straightforward, where we are moving a very small area on a spatial base that there is no issue with, but some of them can be complex, where we are serving notice in a lot of those cases and that can cause difficulties in the market. Again, we have an expedited process in place for that but, where possible, we work with the applicants to get those through. However, we do have to serve notice under our legislation and make sure that we have consent, where needed, because it is a legal registry.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Again, if there is any simple data that can be shared with the committee, that would be good.

I have two final questions. Obviously rate valuations within the ten-year timeframe are better than what pertained previously but it is still a long period. Is there any discussion within Tailte Éireann or between it and the Department about shortening that or will it remain at ten years? One recommendation this committee made during the pre-legislative scrutiny of Tailte Éireann's underpinning legislation was for the Property Services Regulatory Authority, PSRA, to be transferred to the Department of housing and to be part of this new agency. As the witnesses know, the PSRA and the PSAB transferred to the Department of housing in August 2025. Has there been any discussion between Tailte Éireann and the Department about whether that will become part of the Tailte Éireann family or is that not something the witnesses have been party to?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

There have been no conversations at all with us on that.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. O'Sullivan seems surprised that I would ask that question.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

It is the first I have heard of it.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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There was quite some discussion during pre-legislative scrutiny at this committee about that. The PRSA sat uncomfortably in the Department of justice and many of us had, for a long time, asked for it to be transferred to the Department of housing. It was a programme for Government commitment and it has happened.

In terms of the ten-year timeframe, what is the situation?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Now that we will have the last two into NewEra, we will look at that. Ten years is still what is legislatively there. There is a trade-off in that if we tried to bring it back to eight years, for example, we would need to put in additional resources. What I have learned since I joined Tailte Éireann is that in some quarters the revaluation is not welcome. It is almost a question that we should let sleeping dogs lie. What I am not hearing from many quarters is a call for doing it faster and more often but it is certainly something that is achievable. It can be done. It is just a question of resources. If there is a legislative or real business demand for it, we can do it.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Without wanting to make myself very unpopular with the folks who want to let sleeping dogs lie, obviously the more frequent it is, the more accurate it is in terms of an honest reflection of the valuation at a point in time. With all valuations, there are winners and losers at either end, and that is one of things we all get in our constituencies. Is there any legislative bar? Is it that the legislation simply requires Tailte Éireann to do it within the ten years and if there was to be any desire from the Government to shorten that, would it require legislative change or could it be done through policy agreement between the Government and Tailte Éireann, subject to resources?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Essentially, in the legislation as written now, ten years is the outside so we can choose to do it faster than that. What has driven some of the desire to have it done faster was the number of revision requests that had built up, unprocessed, which was leading to a sense of unfairness. My personal view, given we are now within the six months on the revision requests, is that this should go a long way towards addressing concerns people have about being removed or where there is a new business in an area that should be added but is not. That would address quite a lot of that but if the demand is there, it can be done.

Eoin Ó Broin (Dublin Mid West, Sinn Fein)
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Subject to resources, I presume.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes, subject to resources.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. Since Tailte Éireann was established in March 2023, it has done fabulous work. I want to go back to the issue of land registry delays. How long does a new application, with everything in order, take now?

Ms Liz Pope:

A new application, if it does not require subdivision, can be done within one to two weeks if it is order when it is submitted to us. We can bring it into processing very quickly if it passes validation checks. In terms of subdivision work and first registration work, we are currently working through our backlog of cases, so it depends on the nature and complexity of each case. If there is any issue in relation to there being a barrier to a particular transaction, we will expedite those. About 1% of our total intake would involve expedite requests because we come in at the end of the conveyancing process, for the registration piece.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That is fabulous.

Dereliction and vacancy are major issues in our towns. We are all well aware of the issue in towns and villages throughout the country and the Government has made it a priority. Local authorities, including my own in County Clare, are moving to the use of compulsory purchase orders, CPOs. At the moment we have 20 properties that have been compulsorily purchased by the local authority. However, based on what has happened in the past, they are probably facing long delays because of registration requirements, including mapping and first registration. These are the two categories which, unfortunately, have the longest processing times. What measures are in place to prioritise or expedite these applications given their direct link to housing, infrastructure delivery and vibrant towns and villages? Can Tailte Éireann commit to making these applications a priority going forward?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Where we receive requests from a State body or State agency, we have a dedicated team to deal with them. When we receive an expedite request, we do expedite them. That is currently the process and we have had that operating for the last several years.

Ms Liz Pope:

There is a dedicated State property unit within Tailte Éireann.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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As regards these properties that have been compulsorily purchased, what kind of timeline are we talking about?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We will not know specifically if it is the subject of a CPO, so I cannot answer that question. The critical thing for us is that each case is different. However, where we get a request to expedite, all of the information needs to be there and present but it still needs to go through all of the rigours to make sure that the title is examined. I am sure there are other checks we do as well. Ms Pope can provide further information on that.

Ms Liz Pope:

It really does depend on the nature of the underlying title of the vesting order and on whether it is a registered or unregistered title. Straightforward vesting orders can go through very quickly. There may be some issues where the underlying title is unregistered so, again, we may be into service of notice provisions in those kinds of cases. We will work through the State property unit to engage on that.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Is there an approximate amount of time it could take? Are we talking about six to 12 months? Would the witnesses be able to work it out or give an idea, if everything was in order?

Ms Liz Pope:

Again, I could not say without seeing the actual case and I do not want to mislead the Deputy. We can certainly work with the organisation concerned as it comes in to see if there are any title issues when it comes into us.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That is fabulous. We are all well aware of these derelict buildings in towns and villages throughout the country. It is time to get a move forward and hopefully there will not be delays in progressing them.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The critical thing for us is that we are looking to provide a first-class service on every application. When we were founded, we had a very significant volume of backlog and the age profile was very old. It is now coming very current. As we get better and faster at this, we should see that lifting the boats for all the services and applications for all applicants.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I must say that Tailte Éireann has made a lot of progress, in fairness.

Equestrian centres are another big issue around the country. There are a number of them in my own county. As regards rates, what would be the problem? A lot of them, as we are well aware, are not the same as they were in the past. A lot of them are not being used and have maybe been turned back to agricultural use. Could taking the rates off them not be looked at going forward?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The way we operate is that we do not list the properties for rating. That is done by the local authorities. If the local authorities submit, in this case, an equestrian centre for rating, we will look at that and make an assessment, but we do not uniformly have the legal authority to just say we will take out all the equestrian centres. We have to follow the Act.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I am not saying to take out all of them but can some of them that are not used be looked at, or would that be a different set of circumstances?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

A ratepayer has the right to request a change in status to be removed from rating. They are processed at the same speed now as a request we would get from a local authority to put somebody on or to increase it.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I suppose that answers the problem but, again, I know that owners of these centres, because there is little or no use of them, are trying to get the rates off. As Mr. O'Sullivan said, a local authority will have to give its report on them in regard to what can be done going forward.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Any ratepayer has the right to request a revision and indeed a removal. We do process quite a number of those.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Tailte Éireann processes quite a number of them.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We do, absolutely. They are given the same status and speed as a request to add something on or to change a current one upwards. Everything has the same right. Once it is in, the clock starts ticking.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Very good. I have one final question. On the matter of transparency, we should provide the number of first registrations of title arising from local authority compulsory purchase orders, CPOs, or vesting orders, currently pending with Tailte Éireann and the current average processing time for such applications. If everything is in order on these applications, when can they be published? What would be the publishing date for these applications? If everything is in order, in what kind of time or when would they be published as being in order?

Ms Liz Pope:

Again, it is just trying to get the underlying data. We just have first registration as a dataset. I would not have them linked exactly to the compulsory purchase orders. I would not be able to link it to being the subject of a compulsory purchase order. I would probably need a little bit more data on that to be able to run a query.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We will not necessarily know that this is a CPO. We will just have it as an application.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Tailte Éireann would not actually know if it was a CPO.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

No.

Ms Liz Pope:

It would be difficult to pull that from the database in terms of the volume of applications and the number of local authorities, and to run that structured query. If the Deputy has some information for us that he wants us to check against it, we can certainly do that.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That can be done.

Ms Liz Pope:

Yes.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We are trying to operate on the basis of fairness as well. Everybody wants their application done first. If we keeping giving everyone who turns up with an expedite request priority, we never get to clear the people who sent it in several years ago. We cannot have everything expedited but where there is a clear and absolute impact, we do expedite. There has to be a limit to it as well.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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We all know everybody cannot be forced-----

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

That is the thing.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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-----and naturally enough, there has to be a limit. I would agree with that.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

There are people still waiting many years for a first registration application. Our commitment is to clear all of that out and we are making good inroads on it.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Very good. I thank the witnesses.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy Rory Hearne. He is gone; I am sorry. I call Senator Victor Boyhan.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I thank the Chair. I am delighted to be back here. I am not normally on this committee but it is a measure of my enthusiasm to be here when I heard Tailte Éireann was coming. At the very outset, I have had a personal experience of it, which I do not intend to go into here. It is now resolved but I know it was a long time. It cost me €14,000, I had to do affidavits and I was asked for information twice, but that is another day. I am over all of that and I have it resolved, but that has tainted my experience. It has exposed what I consider to be shortcomings but I will park all that for a moment.

I will ask some very focused questions. For the record of the House, can the witnesses tell us, as of 3.45 p.m. today, how many people are waiting for some sort of processes or registrations from Tailte Éireann for the year 2024? Let us be precise.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We have figures on that.

Ms Liz Pope:

The Senator might bear with me for a moment. Is he talking about the first registration process?

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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We will do the first registration process.

Ms Liz Pope:

It is the number of applications in 2024 pending first registration. Is that the Senator's question?

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Yes, as of today. Not complete but pending.

Ms Liz Pope:

I just need to add these two figures together. The Senator might bear with me. It is 1,615.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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In total, from 2024 to 2026, we are talking about roughly how many thousand combined? Let us forget about first registration. How many processes are waiting for 2024 and 2025 - forget about 2026 as we are only half a year into it.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Is this on first registration?

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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On everything awaiting.

Ms Liz Pope:

On everything, our total arrears are 83,000. We would have within that-----

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is grand. It is just to paint a picture.

Ms Liz Pope:

That is the total cases.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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We have 83,000 people with properties, who have a vested interest in them and who have made an application, sought clarification or tried to navigate a process with Tailte Éireann. That is a lot of people. I will park that there and make that statement. We have a housing crisis in this country. We have people who are doing that to, in simple terms, clean up issues around their property that could be complex. We do not necessarily know the motivations around why people come to Tailte Éireann but that is a lot of people at a time when we are doing a lot of transactions around property. I wanted to make that point.

I will make a few points before I ask a few questions. Tailte Éireann has been a source of significant frustration for home buyers, sellers and the legal profession in Ireland. Indeed, a number of solicitors have contacted me and said that people have threatened to make complaints to the incorporated Law Society to say they are not moving fast enough. It is not their fault. There is a process and they are the people who are making the applications. The witnesses will know, as this is their exercise, that the person who makes the submission, the lodging party, is the person Tailte Éireann deals with directly. It cannot deal with individuals ringing up on a daily basis. It will always direct people, and I have correspondence here that says this, to the lodging party, which is usually their solicitor. Every time you engage solicitors there are costs.

I was here in the beginning when we went through the pre-legislative scrutiny in setting up Tailte Éireann and I understood there were recruitment issues. We did not know of them at the time but they evolved and Tailte Éireann had recruitment issues. I have seen from the witnesses' response, I have read the Tailte Éireann website and I have talked to people who have been dealing with it, and it is now clearly focusing on this new target approach to reduce the age profile of the applications. I accept that. That is all very positive. I suggest it would be helpful if we had quarterly reports published in relation to the arrears and their length. We need greater transparency in relation to how Tailte Éireann does its business. It may be that is there and some people cannot find it. I endeavoured to find some information. I was not able to find it today. That is an issue the witnesses might take away and consider.

Today, I looked at parliamentary questions in Dail Éireann, Commencement matters -a number of which I put down myself - correspondence from Ministers and Oireachtas representations. They all spell out a picture of frustration and concern. I do not think that should come as any surprise to the witnesses. I know Tailte Éireann continues to promote digital services and their uptake, which is all very good, but the real issue here is that we have to speed up the process. It is an important process. I have just a few questions. We need greater clarity on the request to expedite processes within the organisation. There have to be clear protocols. I am sure Tailte Éireann has clear protocols but we need to communicate them to people, so we need to understand that process.

To follow on from what Deputy Ó Broin talked about, will the witnesses provide the committee, and I can access it from the committee afterwards at some point, the list of the 130 different application types Tailte Éireann has told the committee about here today? That would be helpful for the committee to have a greater understanding of its work, because there are many things happening the committee would not know or understand. That is important.

I will finish up on two things. I am somewhat surprised about the customer disengagement log Tailte Éireann operates, when the chief of staff has taken the decision to limit interaction with certain customers, services or users in relation to decisions recorded in the disengagement log. I am now aware Tailte Éireann has such a disengagement log because I have been briefed on it and I know what I am talking about. Will the witnesses tell the committee how many people are on that log? Clearly, I opened up by telling the witnesses about the frustration of people. People are frustrated and we need appropriate conduct in the conducting of all our business; I understand that. I was somewhat surprised but thought, let us get some facts. Maybe the witnesses will tell us there is nobody on this log but it is important we have reassurance so that people listening in know what is going on. People need reassurance that it is a confidential log and at no point are the contents of that log disclosed to any other party outside Tailte Éireann. Will the witnesses talk about how they can protect people on that? Those are just some observations.

On Tailte Éireann's commitment to leveraging technology, I read its statement and this is one of the great encouraging areas of hope. Tailte Éireann is transitioning and is a new organisation. I am a reasonable person and I understand and respect all of that. Leveraging technology and innovation will be clearly at the forefront of Tailte Éireann's work. Will the witnesses share some of that information with us?

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I will point out the Senator has used up the entire time he had to ask questions. We were going to give a couple of minutes for witnesses to give answers.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I was just conscious the other members had gone over three minutes. I thought the Chair had a bit of latitude.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I have but none of the members went over without allowing answers to come in, in fairness. I will give a little bit of latitude for answers.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Yes, that is no problem.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

In reverse order, the disengagement log is not a published item. That is held securely and is only on a need-to-know basis within our organisation. All State bodies, agencies, semi-States and private companies as well, operate this. That is something that occurs at the outer reaches where the engagement cannot continue any further. It is invoked where there is abusive or threatening behaviour. There is a whole policy around this. I do not have the exact numbers for who is on the log but I would say it is in the low single digits for our entire organisation. That is there for the protection of our staff, to a large degree.

In terms of digitisation, we have invested significantly into the enterprise digital system for valuations. We have continued to invest in that year on year over the past three years. For everything bar the actual inspections on the ground, valuation is a fully digitised operation. Within surveying, with the investment in our new sensors and new automated flows, that is now fully digitised to the maximum degree.

There are two other areas we are looking at for really leveraging digitisation. We have over 8 million physical instruments for registration in storage. I will not say where but it is in Dublin. That is a growing number. It is an enormous warehouse and it is all on paper. That is the fundamental foundation for when somebody wants a copy instrument. We have dedicated people who are operating a Victorian filing system to retrieve and copy instruments and then put them back in the right place until we need them a second time. We have gone to tender to digitise that. We have placed the contract with a top-class, blue-chip firm. We are doing a pilot at the moment and our intention is to digitise that entire archive. That will dramatically speed up access for citizens to a copy instrument. It will almost be a same-day service. It will take a number of years to digitise that entire archive, although it is not an archive but a working record.

We are in the final element of a tender for the second area, which is to provide a digital workflow system within the entirety of registration. That will mean staff will no longer handle paper while they are doing their work. It will all be digitised and online. That will dramatically increase productivity, speed and visibility. I think I have covered those points.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We now have the second Fianna Fáil slot if Senator Casey wants to jump on.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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No, I am okay. Does Deputy Ó Snodaigh want to come in?

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I will let Deputy Ó Snodaigh in and then Deputy McGrath.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Go raibh maith agat. My question relates to the valuations. I welcome the progress but there is a clause in the legislation to allow for exemptions. There seems to be a bit of confusion as to who can qualify for an exemption and how the local authorities address that. I am chair of a clothing recycling company - it is a charity. It has a number of retail units that are second hand clothes shops. In some instances, we get an exemption from the local authority and in other instances, it has written to us. This is not to do with the company. All second hand clothes shops seem to have this issue, especially the charity ones. They have written to local authorities and the local authorities grant the exemptions in some cases and, in other cases, they refer them to Tailte Éireann. Tailte Éireann has been kind and answered me in one instance pointing me towards paragraph 16 of Schedule 4, which provides that a charitable organisation that uses a property exclusively for charitable purposes and otherwise than for private profit is exempt from the payment of rates.

That is the law but when you deal with the local authority, they point to Tailte Éireann, Tailte Éireann then writes back and says this is the law but the local authority still quote it back to us. I think it costs €250 a go to look for an appeal and in several instances, when we look for a revision from Tailte Éireann, it says this is the rateable value and there is no change, and the local authority still does not get that it has the power. Does the local authority have the power to make the exemption because it seems to point continuously at Tailte Éireann as having the power to make the exemption?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Every local authority can make the exemptions. Tailte Éireann can only revise and apply a rating to what the local authority submits to us. It can be controlled at a local authority level. Once it is submitted to us we take each one on a case-by-case basis. The operating practice with charity shops is that where they are operating for profit and are competing with other shops on the high street, that has been the overriding decision for when they are rateable and commercially rateable.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is if the shops are operating for profit. They are not operating for profit if they are a charity. It is for charitable purposes. The money that comes from them goes to the charity. I can understand competition and all of that but it is an odd definition. I know there are so many charities out there at this stage that some of the local authorities would not be happy if all of them were granted an exemption. Is it that the law is not succinct enough to explain the difference? Some local authorities accept it and others do not so there is no uniform policy across the board. There are other instances. It does not have to be a shop. There can be warehousing involved, as there was in this instance.

There were quite a number of other charities, however. In my area, there is a bicycle facility that fixes bikes and then sells them, but that is the charity. The money goes back into a drugs service. Nobody is getting a profit out of it because all the money goes back into the charity. That is the nature of a charity anyway.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I suppose there is no one single answer to it. The Act as it was written and amended was quite a long time ago now. Certainly, in public discourse and political discourse, there are a lot of views expressed about what should be in and what should be out. Tailte Éireann will apply the Act as it is. Where there are areas such as we had with early childcare and education, ECCE, and other areas, we operated an exemption. We took the view that those operating ECCE childcare facilities were not rateable. There were several cases taken to the Valuation Tribunal where it viewed that they were rateable. There was a High Court case as well involving this that deemed them rateable. That meant it was a reversal of how we had been treating them and our interpretation. We took counsel from the Chief State Solicitor's office and the Attorney General's office and that counsel's opinion said that even if they are operating the ECCE scheme, once it is for profit, they are rateable. Therefore, if the Act needs to be looked at to take into account what everybody wants it to do, it will need refinement, but that is not a matter for Tailte Éireann. We will just apply it as it is and interpret it. That is why we are subject to the Valuation Tribunal and the courts should there be a challenge.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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How much in fees has Tailte Éireann recovered or how many people have made applications to have that revision in terms of charitable sales or exemptions?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I do not have the numbers to hand, but I can certainly get those to the committee.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is maybe something at which the committee can look. There is a whole range of charitable shops out there for charities and they are not businesses. They are not for profit, which defeats what they are being told now, which is that they are for profit. They cannot be for profit because that is the nature of being a charity. The Charities Regulator is there to ensure that for charities.

The other question I had, and Mr. O'Sullivan answered some of it earlier, was in relation to the huge archive Tailte Éireann has. What is the timeframe on the material it is trying to scan that numbers 8 million?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We estimate it will take four to five years to scan and digitise the entire 8.5 million.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Will that then be available to the public or is it-----

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

That is actually the working record. That is the live record of the registration. Where that is operable to customers and practitioners is when they need to retrieve a copy of the actual instrument or a portion of it. That could be from ten pages to several hundred pages per instrument. It is not that it is up online with free access but that it is digitised and can be accessed very quickly.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. O'Sullivan expects there will be a charge so that Tailte Éireann can access it and give it quite quickly.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The current charge is €40.

Ms Liz Pope:

The current charge is €40, yes.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Would Mr. O'Sullivan expect an increase at that stage, although I know it is five years away?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I would not anticipate that. There is a fees order that we operate under. The current charge is €40. We believe that given how much effort there is to find and retrieve it right now, that €40 is not even covering costs.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It will be no problem finding it in the future, however.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

No, absolutely not.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It will lower the cost then.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

And quickly. We have other archives as well that would truly be archival in our registry of deeds building, that is, the entire registry of deeds going back 300 years. We have a very large archive that we are taking out of the old Ordnance Survey premises in Phoenix Park at the moment as well, so there is a hugely important treasure trove here of artifacts and records. We need to preserve them and make them available and that is our intention.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a plan to make them available online in the future or to at least digitise them at this stage?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We have done some early digitisation pilots on the registry of deeds. Our plan in our next strategic window is to really invest further into that, subject to funding, of course, and yes, the plan is to make that available online.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. O'Sullivan.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I call Deputy McGrath.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank everyone for being here. I apologise; I missed some of the session earlier. I had a question in the Dáil that just finished. I thank the witnesses for their opening statement as well. I will just focus on the valuation process initially. The opening statement stated that the final phase has commenced. What is the update on that in terms of where we stand?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The timetable on that is that we have commenced the engagement with the local authorities and on the ground with the ratepayers gathering the data. This process will run through 2026 and into 2027. We would expect the final certificates to issue in quarter 1 of 2028.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What percentage of business would be involved in the final phase?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Between both local authorities, there are circa 20,000 rate-paying bodies, persons or entities.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not sure if other members have touched on this so I apologise if I am repeating it, but in terms of what has been done, was it generally an increase in valuations?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We are not at that point yet. We have literally just commenced the process now.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is the final phase, however, is it not?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

This is the final phase of bringing all local authority areas up to the modern process.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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At this point in time, therefore, there have been no new valuations issued.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Not in Cork city and county, no.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, but across the country.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Every other local authority area has been done.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. That is what I am asking in terms of the other local authorities. What has been the general position after this process? Has it been an increase in valuations on average?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

There are winners and losers in it. The valuation process itself does not increase the rates bill. The local authority sets what its expectation is from ratepayers. We simply provide the matrix that it applies to see who pays what. The revaluation itself does not increase incomes in a local authority. It just rebalances who is paying what.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It rebalances, so it is neutral.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

It is neutral, yes.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That was what I had always heard when I was sitting on a local authority. Therefore, the overall revenue will be neutral-----

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----but the revaluation process is still a very complex process.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

It is a very complex process. If we take Cork city and county, the rates in those two local authority areas right now are based on a 1988 valuation. That 38 years is quite significant. There has been a lot of change in that time-----

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There has.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

-----plus the change in the boundaries between the city and county means that a lot of county has now moved into city and will be in a different rate-paying authority.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Just so anyone listening can understand it clearly, some businesses will face an increase and other businesses will face a decrease but overall, it will be neutral.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes, and some will be removed as well.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Some will be removed and some will be added.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes. It is constantly-----

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. O'Sullivan explain how it is neutral overall? How is that?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The local authority decides the revenue it is going to garner from the commercial rates, but that is a figure it sets. We provide the matrix of relativity and then that is how it does its billing.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can the local authority increase the figure it intends to collect?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I would probably ask the Deputy to ask the local authorities that. I am not quite sure if they have the leeway. Maybe they do; I do not know.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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They can increase the rate demanded but in the revaluation year, they cannot. If they got €10 million last year, all they can get this year is €10 million.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. O'Sullivan have any view in terms of the unfairness of the commercial rates system in that the valuation is not necessarily based on performance but on other factors?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I do not have a view on that, to be honest with the Deputy. We just apply the Act as it is.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. O'Sullivan might give us a quick summary of how a valuation is set on a business. A small high street retail shop could be 20 ft by 20 ft and could have a bigger turnover than a commercial warehouse. How does Mr. O'Sullivan determine the valuation in short?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We consider factors such as a property's rental value or its position, say, if it is within a town and the sort of frontage it has. We look for what the rents are because rents are an indication of the property value. If we had greater sharing of the rental data and a higher response rate from ratepayers, it would make it even more transparent. Talking to the team within valuation, when we come around to a revaluation programme in a local authority area, there is not great or exuberant co-operation in people telling us how much they pay in rent. It is very difficult to get the data. It is a very precise piece of work and analysis, provided you have the source data.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That approach includes a reliance on rent. What are the other factors?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The other factors that can come in can be just the turnover of the business itself. That is a factor, too.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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These factors are weighted-----

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----in the overall matrix that is used.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I served on a council for many years. The typical criticism of the rates process was that it did not take performance into account. A business could be doing very well or could be under severe pressure, but the rate did not in any way take cognisance of that performance.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

That is a policy question, to be honest.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Valuation Office has no feedback.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We have no professional view on that at all.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. O'Sullivan has no professional view. That is okay.

From Mr. O'Sullivan's opening statement, what jumped out at me was the mention of two aircraft. Are they two new aircraft?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes. We are in partnership with a company in Cork, the Atlantic Flight Training Academy, AFTA.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know it well. It is in my constituency.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The two aircraft are designed specifically to carry our sensors. We have state-of-the-art, best-in-the-world sensors that fit into these aircraft. AFTA's pilots fly, we give them the routes and our guys operate the equipment. It is quite the endeavour. We have our own flying team. Every time there is good weather, they are up and trying to capture as much as possible before the clouds set in.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What are they capturing? Could Mr. O'Sullivan explain?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

There are two things. They are taking aerial photographs of the ground. They are flying at 10,000 ft. As well as that, our new equipment now has light detection and ranging, LIDAR, which will give us three-dimensional imagery of height. We have not had that previously. It will give far more accuracy. Our intention is to fly the entire country every three years and that will ensure all of the mapping data is up to date for all the local authorities and private sector organisations that use it to make decisions.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. O'Sullivan used the word "new". When were these aircraft commissioned?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We started operation on those in quarter 3 of last year.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What happened prior to that?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Prior to that, the contract was terminated. We had a previous supplier. We wanted to get new aircraft to carry new sensors so we went to tender.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We do not own these aircraft but we use them.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

This is a service contract from AFTA.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a service contact.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

They are dedicated to our use.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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How often would they be in use? Is it generally during periods of good weather?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

If the sun is shining or is predicted to be shining, we are flying every day of the year that we can possibly fly, including weekends.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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We need to maximise the return in terms of what we can capture.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes. The weather today is fantastic for us. We are maximising. On occasion, we have both aircraft in the air for 12 to 14 hours per day.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to ask about all the strands of the business that Táilte Éireann undertakes. In which area is it most under pressure? Which is the most challenging area as it tries to get through the workload?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We are up to date on valuation now. There had been a backlog since 2012 but we are fully up to speed. We are expanding and providing more State property valuation services. That is in very good shape. We have completed the digital journey. We are in a good position with surveying. We have the right technology. We have an opportunity with the new national map specification to put ourselves right out there as the best in the world. With that specification, we will declare exactly what we will map in the context of the features in our databases. We are giving an accuracy statement for the whole country and stating that all of Ireland will be mapped to one standard. The critical thing, and we believe this is a world first, is that we will give a currency statement on our data. We will confirm that the data is current as per a particular date and time. It will be a huge undertaking to get that through. We have a staffing issue within our surveying function right now. That is a challenge and needs to be resolved. In the registration area, we have made considerable strides. That is the area in which we have the most opportunity for further improvement. We are not where we want to be at this point, but we know how we are going to get there. We have demonstrated massive progress.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. As a public representative, I must say that engaging with Táilte Éireann is generally a positive experience. It generally comes back to give some update and so on. That is welcome and appreciated.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses. I am not a member of the housing committee but I was interested to hear what Deputy McGrath said about rates. We have been debating the issue all our lives. Shopkeepers used to tell me that the 1968 farmers' rights march did away with rates for farmers and that everybody should be paying on the basis of income and not rates. I wanted to say that.

I have a few quick-fire questions if the witnesses do not mind. How long are the processing times for the straightforward deletions of burdens on a folio?

Ms Liz Pope:

Some 60% of applications to take off a mortgage come directly through the e-discharge service, which is purely digital. That would take two days. Outside of that, if it goes into the paper system, it is a matter of the oldest case first. It would depend if it is associated with an older case or not. It depends.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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What is the average for the paper system?

Ms Liz Pope:

I could not give an average time for the release of burdens. We are working to the priority of oldest case first in that regard. If there is a request to expedite any particular case, we take that and deal with it if it is causing difficulty.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Can a point of contact be put in place for lodging solicitors for more complex matters, such as rectifications and the correction of burden issues? We are aware of a number of cases that have not been progressed and sale of properties is being held up. These are questions I get in my office from solicitors.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The critical thing from a registration perspective is that registration inherently should not inhibit the sale of a property. The registration comes post the sale and conveyancing. We operate an expedite request system when there is an urgent need and it is holding up a transaction where it has been decided between the parties that they want registration to take place prior to sale. The intention of registration was always that it was an event post conveyancing.

On the response turnaround times we have now, every single case we have is live and active. I would not have been able to say that 18 months ago. We are in constant contact with the practitioners. Where we have queries, the application is sent back to them. We urge them to come back within a timeframe. A critical point is that we are not an advisory body. We cannot give people advice.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I accept that.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We can advise on our processes but we cannot give people advice on a specific property. We are a registration authority.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. O'Sullivan. In cases where a simple correction is required, can an official not speak to a lodging solicitor rather than rejecting an application? That is a simple one.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The thing is that we have a finite resource. We are trying to process all the applications. Whether it is in order or not, we still have to handle it. The rejection rate is very high. Some 60% of the applications we receive for first registration are not in order to be processed and we just cannot deal with them.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Whose fault is that? Where is that fault coming from?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We did not fill in the application form, so-----

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Mr. O'Sullivan is putting it back to the relevant solicitor.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is grand. That is the answer. Do officials have full access to the storage facility where old documents were held and which was deemed out of use due to the presence of asbestos?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes, that is now fully resolved, as of November last year.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is grand. I thank Mr. O'Sullivan. What are the current average processing times for first registrations and complex conveyance applications?

What concrete steps are being taken to reduce delays that are impacting on housing delivery?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I will let Ms Pope talk about this in a second. The housing delivery piece is a critical point for us. Registration is a post-sale, post-construction event. In our view, it should not be inhibiting the building or the sale of houses in any way because it is a post-sale event. We answered earlier about processing times but I will ask Ms Pope to go through it again.

Ms Liz Pope:

The legal requirement falls on the purchaser for first registration, not the vender. That is precisely because we do not wish to be a barrier within the housing market for transactions. With regard to our total intake every year, approximately 5,000 cases come in that require one of our team in the legal services unit to investigate the title fully. That is the same process as a solicitor or a barrister. Those cases are complex and difficult. Often, the full documents of title are not available or there may be missing details on title. We may require an indemnity. We have to go through a number of steps. Registration is sometimes called a curative effect in relation to some problems on the title. It depends on the complexity of the case.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thank Ms Pope. I have two further questions and the Cathaoirleach never gives me any leeway. Does Tailte Éireann currently have sufficient staffing in digital infrastructure capacity to meet demand? Where are the main operational bottlenecks arising?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Our major operational challenge remains within registration. We have a lesser but increasing issue within our surveying area. We have an 18% vacancy rate within our surveying function.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Tailte Éireann cannot get people to do the job.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

No, it is not quite that. We have an ongoing issue because Ordnance Survey Ireland, OSI, was not a body of the Civil Service, whereas the Property Registration Authority and the Valuation Office were. The grades and staff within ordnance survey need to be assimilated into the Civil Service.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I now see what is wrong.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We have an issue where that grading has not been agreed. As a result, we have not been able to recruit.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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As a matter of interest, where is that being held up? This is what I and all public representatives get, and now we see what one of the problems is. What is holding this up? Why is there no one in place to say, “Solve this”?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

To provide the quick version, in January of last year, we used the Civil Service’s assimilation guidelines and engaged with the trade union, Fórsa. We proposed to Fórsa what the equivalent Civil Service grades would be compared with the current OSI grades, and they were agreed. Before Fórsa balloted the proposal, we submitted it to our parent Department for approval, that is, the Department of housing. It needed to secure approval from the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation. The Department of housing came back to say that the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation had approved it. Fórsa then balloted on the issue, and it was accepted. When we looked to implement the new grades, however, there was a difficulty with the NSSO because it was looking for sanction. When we explained to it that we had the sanction, the sanction sort of dried up. We have been in limbo ever since.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Who is stopping that?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We are engaged with the Department of housing in this regard. The Department of housing is working with the Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation over the past year and a half to try to resolve this.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thought it had approved it. That is dreadful.

How is Tailte Éireann engaging with local authorities, planning bodies and the wider public sector to improve data sharing and transparency around land ownership, zoning and development-ready land?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We have a spatial data unit that I will ask Ms Pope to tell the Deputy about. It is specifically tasked with working with those groups.

Ms Liz Pope:

We have a spatial data unit that deals with requests from, for example, local authorities. They may be regarding critical infrastructure projects. We have a dedicated unit in Waterford that deals with those requests. They are turned around on request. There is no delay or backlog in that regard. For other bodies, such as State bodies or financial institutions that have an interest in property and have an entitlement under legislation to access data, we have some bulk data-sharing agreements in place. We have a request service for those with a legal entitlement to acquire the data, and we regularly process bulk property transactions.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses. I also thank the Cathaoirleach. I waited a long time to ask those questions.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We gave Deputy Aird the full seven minutes as if he were a full member of the committee.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am able to be acting leader now. Members are always being given out to for taking too long, but I got all the answers I wanted.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The next slot is for Fianna Fáil. Senator-----

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I wish to make something clear. I am not a substitution. I am representing Senator McCarthy. Is that the second?

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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No. This is-----

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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Relax, Senator Boyhan.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is just in case I have to go to the Seanad. I have no problem waiting.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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This is the rota that was agreed by all members.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is okay. Can the Cathaoirleach tell me where on the rota my slot is so I know when to go?

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Senator Boyhan is a divil.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Are there two more spaces?

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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There are two or three more spaces. There is Senator McCormack. There is a-----

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I understand that. I just wanted to-----

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----working rota for parties based on-----

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----work out whether the Cathaoirleach could clarify where I am on the waiting list.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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As people come into the committee meeting, it changes. Members are entitled to come in at different times.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is okay.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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Relax, Senator Boyhan.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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This slot is for either Senator Flaherty or Senator Casey.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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I will come back to the valuation process. There is still a huge piece of education to be done around this. I was in Wicklow when the revaluation happened. I was walking the main street and going in and out of shops. I went into one shop where a man was devastated. He received the revaluation from Tailte Éireann, which was €20,000. It was nearly 100 times what he was paying already, but he did not understand the second part of that process. Do the witnesses follow?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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What has happened is that this has taken so long. Nearly a full generation has just received a rate bill every year. They have never been through this. People do not fully understand the two separate processes that are in place and how they work out. There is still an education piece to be done around that. I just happened to be walking by that man's shop. I was able to explain to him completely that it looked like Wicklow was going to 28 cent in the euro compared to 78 cent, or whatever it was at the time. He was paying a similar rate more or less.

To go back to Deputy Ó Broin’s point, while the new ten-year revaluation is a huge, significant step, for my own business, because it was 40 years, it trebled. That was an increase of €70,000, which was a significant increase to be faced with just like that. It was almost three-fold. It is what it is. It is hugely important that the revaluation is done a lot quicker than the ten-year process. That education piece is vital.

Tailte Éireann should try to work with local authorities and combine with them in this regard because the letters did not go out together. Tailte Éireann’s letter arrived first and then the council’s letter arrived about a week letter detailing that the estimated calculation will be 28 cent in the euro. If the two letters had arrived together, or there were some workings in that regard, it would have helped.

Deputy Ó Snodaigh raised the issue of the powers local authorities have when it comes to incentives. They have powers to incentivise. Could a local authority, tomorrow morning, bring in a rates rebate scheme for charity shops if that was its wish?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I honestly do not know the answer to that question. It is a question that is probably more appropriate for the Department of housing. It is not one we have an expertise in.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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I think a local authority has that power under that same piece of legislation. A local authority is in a position to bring in incentives, whatever that incentive is. I know all Tailte Éireann does is put a valuation on a property. That is its limit.

Tailte Éireann is behind its originally proposed move-in date in Smithfield. When do the witnesses envisage Tailte Éireann being fully moved into Smithfield?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We commenced the move in late October last year. We moved all of the staff we had in the Irish Life building in. That was primarily our corporate staff and all our valuation team. Between December and January, we moved all of our registration staff from Chancery Street.

We are ready to receive the staff from our Phoenix Park office. Due to the ongoing issues of pay and recruitment, we are not able to move the staff out of the Phoenix Park office.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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Is that the last bit?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

That is the last bit.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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To go back to the historical issues, Ms Pope said there are 80,000 applications outststanding at the moment. That is not just 2024 and 2025. That is-----

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

That is everything.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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At the start of the meeting, Ms Pope confirmed that 50,000 of the arrears are being hit on an annual basis at the moment.

Ms Liz Pope:

No.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

To be clear, right now we have just over 80,000 applications on hand and the oldest is from 2018.

Ms Liz Pope:

There is one 2018 case.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes. We are then up into 2021, 2022, 2023 and 2024. At the rate we are able to reduce now, we expect to get through those during this year because we processed 314,000 applications last year. With an arrears of 80,000, we should be put a significant hole in that this year.

Pat Casey (Fianna Fail)
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That is what I was hoping for clarification on. When will those 80,000 applications be eliminated?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

That will take over two years because some of those are very complicated. We are trying to give priority to the transactions that are not first registration or subdivision. We see that reducing again this year and it will take another year on top of that to get it up to current. Our strategic aim in our next window will be to have nothing on hand older than six months. That is where we want to be. When we started we had a backlog going back over 30 years. We now have it down to one application from 2018 and the remainder are from 2021 onwards. We believe that in the next strategic window we can get it to nothing ever being in registration longer than six months. That is where we want to be.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Next is Senator McCormack. I ask her to turn on her camera and declare that she is in the Leinster House complex.

Maria McCormack (Sinn Fein)
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Yes, I am here in Leinster House.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The Senator has seven minutes.

Maria McCormack (Sinn Fein)
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I am okay for questions as I am just learning. I thought that the Cathaoirleach was checking to see that I was listening.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Does the Senator have any questions?

Maria McCormack (Sinn Fein)
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I have no questions today. Thank you.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Senator Flaherty is next.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I thank the speakers for coming in and belated best wishes to Mr. O'Sullivan in his new role.

I will focus on the issue of registrations. The land registry and property registration authorities merged to form Tailte Éireann. Solicitors would tell us that traditionally there was always a very good relationship between themselves and the land registry, and individuals in the Property Registration Authority, where they were more than helpful. The consensus was that they sang from the same hymn sheet in that if a person had a query it could be raised, responded to and the registration would be completed accordingly. However, there is a sense that with the change in regime, the new organisation and Mr. O'Sullivan coming in as chief executive, there has a been a distinct change in policy.

I saw a recent copy of an application that the land registry rejected. There was a note on it advising in correspondence that it is not a property advisory body and cannot provide guidance on a specific application, and that it would also furnish the applicant with a list of what could be wrong with the application. This is a cause of consternation and much dismay because if Tailte Éireann is not an advisory body in this area, then I do not know who is nationally an advisory body. They are the experts. They have the knowledge and should be an advisory body.

In advance of the appearance here today of Tailte Éireann, I spoke to many solicitors who specialise in conveyancing and there is universal discord and dissatisfaction with the service. Some solicitors went as far as to say that the current approach is short-sighted, impractical, vindictive and does not achieve the aim of reducing the number of applications currently pending in the land registry. I echo the dismay and frustration that is out there. Is Mr. O'Sullivan aware of that? Is there anything he can do to make amends and put this right?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The fact is that the number of arrears has dramatically reduced and the age profile has dramatically improved. The fact of the matter is that what was occurring was a very high error rate and a very high rejection rate. The rejection rate, while not actually rejecting, was 90%. As many as 90% of applications, particularly of first registration applications, had some sort of a defect in them. Property Registration Authority staff would then diligently go through the entire application, taking up enormous amounts of taxpayer resources, pointing out everything they could see that was wrong. That would go back out but 80% of those would come back in again with all the same errors in them. The applications would go in and out. A very quick look by me and my team indicated that was a complete waste of resources. On rejection policy, we took the decision that we would not change what would cause an application to be rejected but simply apply it. We cannot take the position where we are an advisory body to members of the legal profession on how to do their job. We can advise on what is needed on the applications and on the process.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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A lot of those issues were legacy issues. I am talking about current applications. I accept that legacy issues have been dealt with. They probably could have been dealt with - I would not be flying your flag specifically on that. What I am talking about are current applications where there has to be a level of service and a congenial approach by both sides.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We-----

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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At the end of this, we may have a couple who are probably trying to get their first home in the teeth of a housing crisis. As much as the Government plays a part in resolving the housing crisis, Tailte Éireann is very much a executrive and player in that as well. Solicitors, in the main, do not complain unless they have a reason to complain. They are seriously dissatisfied with the service and approach taken. They have told us that staff have anecdotally told them that this is a directive from the very top within Tailte Éireann. They are dissatisfied with it themselves and are unhappy with implementing this approach.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The figures do not lie. The performance has dramatically improved.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I accept that. Please bear with me. That was an historical issue and I am parking that.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

It is a current issue.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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What solicitors deal with on a day-to-day basis are contemporaneous applications. These are the applications that come in this month where a property has gone sale agreed. Those are the applications we want to get sorted now because we want to get people into a house, free up a house that they are possibly renting and get to grips with the housing crisis.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The critical thing, and we covered this with some of the Senator's colleagues earlier, is registration comes post sale. It is not part of the conveyancing process; it is post that. Registration or not should not impact the sale of a house or its occupation. We have worked very closely with the Law Society over the last three years to improve everybody's experience of this. We ran two webinars late last year and over 3,000 practitioners participated in those to understand the forms and processes. Are we operating-----

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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On what solicitors tell me, I note that the Law Society has contacted Tailte Éireann and I do not believe the society is getting anywhere with it. I enclose a copy of the latest guidance note from the conveyancing committee indicating that it will specify the first retractable error. This is complete nonsense. If there is more than one error on the application, they must clarify same accordingly. Many people in Tailte Éireann are unhappy with the approach and have been made to feel that their relationship with solicitors, many of whom they have dealt with for many years, is being thwarted and will slowly erode due to the unnecessary hardline approach. We have been made aware of an issue. Tailte Éireann has done great work on historical arrears but solicitors are saying there is a problem. Is there a problem?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I am not talking about an historical issue. This is a current issue. We talk to our staff every day. The frustration they had from spending several days writing out everything that was wrong with an application only to see it come back in again and again with the same errors caused incredible levels of frustration for our staff.

The bottom line is that we are not an advisory body and, as I have described to people, we are not a NCT service where the car is brought in, we are told what is wrong with it and we fix it. Even when we-----

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I know Mr. O'Sullivan is taking that view now-----

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

If I could finish my point-----

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Please let Mr. O'Sullivan finish the answer.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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My time is nearly finished. I know that is the view Mr. O'Sullivan is taking but that is not the view the Land Registry traditionally took. Tailte Éireann has arbitrarily made a change that is grossly impacting how the service is being delivered, and I think it is unfair. Mr. O'Sullivan can take the position that Tailte Éireann is not an advisory service but the reality is there is nobody to advise the solicitors in these cases.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The reality is that the advice was not taken because 90% of all applications got a full review and every single thing that was wrong was pointed out. Of those, 80% came back in with all the same errors again. So, even when advice was being given, it was not being followed. The fact of the matter is the citizens in the State get a far faster, better service now because we are not tied up in giving an NCT service for poorly completed applications.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. O'Sullivan is saying the fault is with the solicitors.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The fault is with the applicants filling in the applications, which are coming in on the wrong form, with documents missing, signatures missing and fees not paid.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I find it hard to believe that solicitors are that negligent and incompetent.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I am not pointing the finger at any particular solicitors but we have done a lot of work with the Law Society, through the conveyancing committee, over the last number of years. We are working together. For example, we had webinars last year and over 3,000 practitioners participated in those. They welcomed them and they do help. However, we have a finite resource and a lot to do. We cannot tie that up by doing other people's work for them.

Joe Flaherty (Fianna Fail)
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I was first notified of these issues in March 2024. I checked with solicitors this week in advance of this meeting and they told me the situation is still the same and there has been no improvement.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am the next speaker but I will let Senator Boyhan in before me.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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I will not be long. I thank the Cathaoirleach. This is a new format that I am not familiar with but I understand it now. I thank the Chair for clarifying it.

This is an important meeting because it is televised. The public will be listening in tonight on "Oireachtas Report" and they will hear some of the frustration. I fully concur with everything my colleague Senator Flaherty said. He tapped into the frustration. My opening line to this committee, which I typed out two weeks ago in the knowledge that the witnesses were coming today, was that Tailte Éireann has been a source of significant frustration for home buyers, sellers and the legal profession. That was my key opening gambit. I want to make that point, and I am sticking by it.

We will leave this meeting with Tailte Éireann having confirmed to the committee and members of the public listening that there are 80,000 cases relating to individual properties in hand. That is a hell of a lot of work to do. Would Tailte Éireann be in favour of publishing on its website every three months a log charting the progress of those 80,000 cases? That is my ask. Whether Tailte Éireann does it or not is grand as I have other platforms and forums within the Oireachtas to keep raising this. I intend to engage constructively with parliamentarians of all parties and none in the Dáil to continue to put a series of parliamentary questions to Tailte Éireann. I submitted many parliamentary questions in the past and I will continue to raise the matter in the Seanad. Eighty thousand cases is too many and to suggest it will take two years, at 40,000 each year, to complete them is not fast enough. That is my view and from my conversations with other politicians, many others share that view.

I will park all of that now. The issues have been given a good airing. I know from my engagement and the correspondence I have with me from various Ministers and officials who have engaged with Tailte Éireann that they too recognise there are problems.

I will ask a question on dealing with farmland. I know it is very hard to break down strata and data. Applications involving the transfer of registered farmland, where no change to the register map is required, are, in the main, processed within how many working days?

Ms Liz Pope:

If the application is lodged in order for registration and there is no subdivision-----

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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No change map.

Ms Liz Pope:

If no change map is required, it can be done, when it comes into the validation unit, within a matter of days.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Could we say it will be within ten days?

Ms Liz Pope:

Less than ten days.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is good news. I got a query today on behalf of a farmer from a farmers representative organisation. I can go away and tell that farmer, who will be watching, that an application involving the transfer of registered farmland, where no change to the registry map is required, will be processed within ten days.

Ms Liz Pope:

Yes. For all of a folio, where there is no subdivision and it is in order on lodgement-----

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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That is great. I will leave this meeting-----

Ms Liz Pope:

We have people in the unit ready to do it and that is happening every day.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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It is great to have good news on that.

In terms of the Land Commission archive, does Tailte Éireann have access and collaboration in a very open and fluid way with the Land Commission?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

No. As we understand it, that is under the remit of the Department of agriculture. We have no interaction on or control over that.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Does Mr. O'Sullivan see the potential benefits of a synergy or is that relevant?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We do not see it as relevant.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Why not when Tailte Éireann has no access to it?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We are operating a live, active register. That archive is more of a treasure trove, as such. It is not live and active in terms of-----

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Is it not necessary for Tailte Éireann's work?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Not at all.

Victor Boyhan (Independent)
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Having listened to the discussions and frustrations, of which there are many, the key point here is that citizens need to be confident in Tailte Éireann's capacity to provide an authoritative land and property database and systems in a timely manner. It is down to it being done in a timely manner. I understand the enormous amount of work that has been shared with the committee and explained today. The issue is the timely manner. Politicians, be they councillors in local government, Senators, TDs or whatever else, are meeting people at the coalface weekly. With 80,000 cases, Mr. O'Sullivan can imagine that politicians are clearly another port of call for people. There is frustration.

I do not want to be critical. I know people who work in Tailte Éireann but it would not be appropriate of me to say what their views are on how the organisation is run, be that good, bad or indifferent. However, there is a frustration among many of the staff. Indeed, some of them who were working there are now working in the Oireachtas due to people in the public service moving.

I was involved in the pre-legislative scrutiny of the legislation that brought about the establishment of Tailte Éireann. It was hoped we would see a speedier way of dealing with the issues. I just want to share the frustration. I have moved on and it is not about me but land transactions are a critically important issue. People's money and assets are at stake, as I think Mr. O'Sullivan will understand. I wish Tailte Éireann well in its work. As the digitalisation, innovation, technology and all of that are rolled out, it will clearly be impressive.

I have learned something from these proceedings, namely, that Tailte Éireann's is undertaking monitoring through aviation. That is important and a good news story. Most people do not quite understand how important that gathering of data and information is. I commend Mr. O'Sullivan and his team on pursuing that because it is an important story. Tailte Éireann is an evolving organisation but the big issue is whether we can communicate to people and allay the fears of 80,000 people, on a quarterly basis at least, about the status of their application before Tailte Éireann.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I agree with Senator Boyhan on updating the committee or the website of Tailte Éireann as the figures reduce. Even if it was done on a quarterly basis, it would give people some comfort that the numbers are reducing. Without members asking questions in this meeting, we would not have that information.

Mr. O'Sullivan mentioned people moving from the Phoenix Park office. What is the issue with that movement?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

All the staff in our Phoenix Park office are former Ordinance Survey staff. We still do not have resolution of what the pay grades will be for those staff going forward. That is preventing recruitment, giving us a high vacancy rate and causing operational issues. It also impacts services, for example, where we support Eircode. We are at an impasse right now. Essentially, to get the staff to move from the Phoenix Park we need to deliver on our end of the bargain, which is that we had an agreement from early last year on what the pay would be going forward and that has not been delivered upon. That is preventing us recruiting and exiting the Phoenix Park building.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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When Mr. O'Sullivan says it is not being delivered on, does he mean the Department of public expenditure is not releasing finance to cover extra costs?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We actually have the finance for this within our Vote.

We are dealing with our parent Department and it deals with the Department of public expenditure. In January of last year we received the approval that the assimilation could go ahead. That was relayed to us from our housing colleagues. We have that in writing that it is sanctioned to go ahead. I understand they have it in writing from the Department of public expenditure that it is sanctioned to go ahead. Fórsa balloted and accepted it but then the shared services office would not process the pay without a sanction and then it would appear that while we had a sanction we now do not have a sanction.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I am getting lost to be honest. Is it the case that the staff there are refusing to move or-----

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

At the moment we have almost 20% vacancy rate within surveying, which is a critically important part of the State infrastructure. We cannot recruit people to the intake grade because we do not have a grade or a pay to offer them. That is still not agreed.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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That is baffling, to be quite honest.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes, it is a difficult one.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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What mechanism is there to deal with that? We cannot have a situation like that.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

There has been ongoing engagement between our parent Department and the Department of public expenditure since the end of quarter 1 of 2025 but we do not have resolution yet.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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This may be something that we as a committee might write to the senior officials in the Department and the Minister looking for an update on where negotiations are. We cannot have a situation where a State body meant to deliver services is nearly at a standstill, or is heading towards a worse standstill as it loses staff and cannot recruit to fill positions that need to be filled. I do not think any group should be holding that up, especially when all the approvals have been given.

Regarding rates on temporary businesses that have now become full-time businesses such as the coffee carts and the chippers that were meant to be pulling up but have now ensconced themselves in areas, are they rateable?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I will give the answer first that my expert colleagues would give me, which is that each case is individual. However, in the example of a fixed unit, say, where somebody has parked a vehicle or a chip wagon in a permanent fixed location. If it is operating commercially, that is rateable. Those businesses are subject to rates. When they are listed by the local authorities we carry out the visits and the assessments and we will give a rate.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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How does one rate on something that is just operating in a small area but has a-----

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

It is about the value of the location on which they are sitting. It is treated as if it is a fixed building, as such. It is then about the size of it, the turnover and the relativity to other similar businesses in either that particular area or another referrable area.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It is just an issue that has sprung up everywhere over the last two to three years. There are a lot of people in business, paying rent, rates and fixed costs and then-----

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

They are rateable. I do not have the exact figures now, but we have seen an increase as we have cleared out that backlog of revisions. Quite a number of them were sent in by local authorities. We have completed the assessments on all of those and those that are ratable are returned to the local authorities, which can apply rates, and do now.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Mr. O'Sullivan mentioned turnaround times and that for a straightforward case with documentation being sent in, Tailte Éireann is aiming currently for six months. That is roughly where it is at now for a turnaround time on a paper-based application but it would hope or plan to go to a fully digital process and would expect them then to radically speed up.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Due to the nature of the different types of applications, our intention in the future is, if everything is in order on a particular type of application to be able to give the expected turnaround time. We will need to do that for each category. Where that is more difficult, as Ms Pope has said, is where there is a subdivide or it is a first registration. They are more complex and can take longer. We are frustrated as many are about how quickly we can clear out the historical backlog. The evidence is there. We had it going back over 30 years and it was at 130,000. Of the 83,000 we have now, quite a proportion of that is 2026, and we have 2024 and 2025 going back. What you will see in previous data shared to the committee members is that the tail is dramatically reducing now. As we clear out some of those difficult cases, we have more capacity, better processes and digitisation and it is all leading to a much faster customer-focused solution. We have demonstrated that in the valuation area and we have delivered it. The evidence points to us delivering it in registration as well and we believe we are well on the road to doing it. The staff are doing a fantastic job. They have adapted to all of the change and without them we would not be where we are. They have done a fantastic job in adapting to an enormous amount of change. There is not a single staff member who has not been impacted by change since Taillte Éireann was formed, particularly in registration. Everything changed.

Ms Liz Pope:

There is also a high level of new recruits and of people in new roles as well who need to be trained. Some of it is quite complex. However, that is all bedded in now and that is also why we are seeing these increased efficiencies.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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From my own point of view, any engagement or any queries I have are dealt with quite quickly. It may not always be the reply you want, but you get a reply and Tailte Éireann points out the issues that are in the case. I thank staff for their efficiencies.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I do not sit on this committee but the Chair knows I am interested in childcare, so I am taking the opportunity to ask for an update on where things stand at the moment. There are three counties where there are ECCE facilities only, which is our two years of free preschool that is 100% funded by the State. The State is providing those two essential years of preschool. I do not know if the witnesses know families who have benefited from it but mine certainly has. I am contacted by these providers. They can be few and far between in rural areas and the communities really depend on them. They are ECCE only and they have been receiving valuation rates and commercial rates bills. I hope I do not have to tell Taillte Éireann that when you are on 100% Government-funded, these operators are not in it for profit and are operating on tight margins. I am hoping it realises the impact this is having on those providers of services and on the families who depend on them. I am looking for an update on where we are with finding a solution.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

We have serially engaged on this with the Department of children directly and with our own Department of housing officials. Up to 2024, the Valuation Office and subsequently Tailte Éireann took the view that the ECCE facilities were not rateable. There were a number of challenges to this Valuation Tribunal where it decided and took the view that they were ratable where they were operating for profit. There was also a High Court case. Tailte Éireann took legal advice via the Chief State Solicitor's Office and the Office of the Attorney General, and a quite unequivocal legal opinion was supplied to us that these facilities are rateable and are inherently operating for profit. That is the legal advice we got. We were interpreting the Act one way and the decisions from the Valuation Tribunal, the High Court, as well as the subsequent legal advice have driven us back the other way.

The real element within the legal advice received via the Chief State Solicitor and the Attorney General is that if the desire is that ECCE funded should be exempt, the legislation will need to change.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. O'Sullivan accept that there are degrees to which a childcare facility can be profit-making? For instance, a family might have a reduction on a full day childcare bill because their children are of the age where they are attending the ECCE service within a full day childcare centre. ECCE does not just mean that it is a stand-alone service. Sometimes, ECCE services are provided through other childcare facilities. That is maybe where this has arisen. The fallout from this is that ECCE-only services that are only operating three hours a day in community centres or on school grounds and which are not receiving any additional fees are receiving commercial rates bills completely out of the blue, having been operating like that for years.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

What we operate on is what is submitted to us by the local authorities. When they submit a business, property or whatever for commercial rating, we do the work on it. We do not decide or list the properties ourselves. We are following the Act. We follow the Act with the understanding that ECCE was exempt. The Valuation Tribunal, VT, in the High Court cases plus the subsequent legal advice clearly tell us that they are rateable. If the desire is for them to be not rateable, it needs a legislative change.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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ECCE-only services should not be rateable. Something has happened within that decision that is having a negative impact on the childcare sector. I find it very difficult to accept that we are on one hand funding the provision of childcare and free preschool years and at the same time we are then landing bills on these services. There are services that are called sessional. They provide an additional 30 minutes of care for parents. The services are doing that because it assists parents with drop-offs and pick-ups. It is a practical measure. In addition to ECCE-only services that should be secured from paying commercial rates, we should also look at the sessional services. Even if those parents are paying for those 30 minutes extra at the same rate that the Government is paying those services and it is capped €4.60 an hour, that should not be rateable. I hope this can be sorted out as soon as possible. I have looked at the legislation. It says that ECCE only services should be protected under the legislation. At the moment, it is not.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Everybody will have their own private moral views. We do not set the legislation or the policy. If the Act is changed, we will follow whatever the Act changes it to.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I just worry why it says in legislation at the moment that ECCE-only services should not be paying commercial rates bills and yet they are.

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

There is a very complex set of VT judgments and High Court decisions and quite a complex legal opinion provided from the Chief State Solicitor and the Attorney General's office. It is well argued and we are following it.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. O'Sullivan feel like it is going to be dealt with quickly? Does he feel there is urgency around this?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

I cannot comment on that. We have certainly shared our position with the Departments of housing and children. We shared the legal advice that we had received with them. That is a matter for policymakers rather than for Tailte Éireann.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Does the Act under which the High Court made judgments fall underneath the Department of housing?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

Yes.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Would it be prudent of us as a committee to write to the Department asking it to look at the Act to rectify wording within it in order that it nullifies the decision that was made that makes ECCE valuable?

Mr. Liam O'Sullivan:

The legislation would be moved by the Department of housing. If there is a desire to change it, it is the body that would frame the legislative change.

Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I have submitted a Private Members' Bill that would rectify the situation but I still have concerns about ECCE-only services. Everyone knows what I mean by ECCE only services. They are open for three hours a day. They are the two years of preschool. They are not taking fees from parents. This has put them under severe pressure. We are coming up to the end of their academic year. I sincerely hope that they will all still be open in September because some of them are receiving commercial rates bills.

Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before the committee and answering every question so diligently. We appreciate it. It was an important thing. It is something that we might make a yearly meeting with the witnesses. Getting a quarterly update on Tailte Éireann's website would be important for our constituents to know where the situation is regarding the waiting lists.

I propose to consider other business in private session.