Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Liam Quaide.

I welcome everyone to today's meeting. I ask those attending remotely to mute their microphones when they are not contributing so that we do not pick up background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind everyone in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

On the agenda for today's meeting is accessibility and assistive technology. The meeting is a joint meeting between the Joint Committee on Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and the Joint Committee on Disability Matters. Regarding the format of the meeting, as Cathaoirleach of the organising committee, I will chair the first part of the meeting and An Comhchathaoirleach, Deputy Quinlivan, will chair the latter part. I will invite the witnesses in turn to make opening statements limited to a maximum of five minutes each. Once opening statements have been delivered, I will call members as per the order outlined in the speaking rota. The speaking rota alternates between the two committees, with a member of the committee on further and higher education to be followed by a member of the disability matters committee. It is important to note that each member will have four minutes to engage with our witnesses. This is to include both questions and answers. Therefore, it is essential that members put their questions succinctly and allow adequate time for witnesses to answer. I ask that members adhere to that. If we have time at the end, though, there can be a second round.

If the number of members exceeds the seating capacity, I will kindly ask members to vacate their seats after their questions and answers to facilitate another member to come in to engage with witnesses. I propose we schedule a short comfort break at the midway point around 10:50 p.m. and resume shortly after.

Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. The evidence of witnesses who are physically present or who give evidence from within the precincts of Leinster House is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. However, witnesses giving evidence remotely from a place outside the parliamentary precincts may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses physically present do. The invitation letter to the meeting advised that witnesses may think it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter.

Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarding as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against any person or entity outside of the Houses or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I welcome the following witnesses. From Dunboyne College of Further Education, we have Ms Catherine Fox, principal; Ms Emer Cloak, deputy principal; Mr. Will Carty, deputy principal; Ms Catherine Joyce, assistant principal, and Ulreeka, the community dog. Ulreeka is very welcome. From Trinity College Dublin, we have Dr. Conor McGuckin, director of Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities, TCPID; Dr. Vivian Rath, senior research fellow in the school of education; Ms Barbara Ringwood, senior occupational therapist, and Mr. Des Aston, a national and schools co-ordinator. From the University of Limerick, we have Dr. Ann Marcus-Quinn, associate professor in technical communication.

I invite the witnesses to deliver their opening statements.

Ms Catherine Fox:

On behalf of my colleagues and myself, I want to say it is an honour for us to be invited to address the Oireachtas committees.

Dunboyne College operates under the auspices of Louth and Meath Education and Training Board. It is the largest college of further education and training in the country. We have in excess of 1,500 learners annually, including over 1,400 full-time learners. The majority of our part-time learners are in employment and engaged in upskilling and reskilling programmes.

Dunboyne College offers over 70 full-time courses to a diverse student population ranging in age from 17 to 70 years. It is student focused and centred and aims to support every learner in achieving their academic, personal and career goals. Our motto is "Begin here, go anywhere".

Our management team recognises that learners come to us with a variety of abilities, learning needs and life experiences. Up to 30% of our full-time students in any one year will declare that they have an additional need. These needs include attention deficit hyperactivity disorder; specific learning difficulties such as dyslexia or dyscalculia; developmental co-ordination disorders such as dyspraxia; physical disabilities, including visual and hearing impairment; and autism spectrum disorder, ASD, and general learning difficulties. This list is not exhaustive .

As a college, the management team and staff work to ensure that all learners participate fully in college life. Given that the college is located in rented accommodation in a business park, this can be quite challenging. The college's focus is not only supporting students in their coursework but also in developing transversal skills and competencies and independent learning strategies to support them in the next stage of their career path, whether that is future study or employment. Our approach to providing support is both proactive and student-centred. Central to this is our academic and learning hub, which is a supportive and welcoming space where all students regardless of need can access a range of academic supports. These include hardware, laptops and assistive technology sensory supports, including a sensory room, sensory pod and more recently a sensory garden. The hub is open to all students but it plays a particularly important role for those with additional learning needs.

Assistive technology tools used include speech-to-text software; mind-mapping software, which helps students organise ideas for themselves visually; screen colour overlays and filters; magnifying tools; and noise-cancelling headphones with sensory needs. Learners receive support and assistance from dedicated personnel in the learning hub through the form of personal assistants who are based there. They provide one-on-one and small group support outside of the classroom in the areas of study skills, assignment planning, literacy and numeracy support and strive to build the confidence of the learners. Reasonable accommodation arrangements include supports such as assistive technology, additional time in exams and separate centres. Learners also have access to the sensory garden and all of the sensory supports.

Our guidance and counselling service supports learners in making career decisions. Funding for students and learners with a diagnosed disability or specific learning need is provided annually by SOLAS through the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science and down through Louth and Meath Education and Training Board. Additional supports are made as straightforward as possible and students are encouraged to indicate their needs at the time of application. The team works closely with them to identify whether the college can meet their needs and ensure that appropriate accommodation is in place.

In addition to supporting learners with additional needs, we are very committed to preparing learners for careers in the whole area of healthcare support and disability sectors. We offer a range of courses that provide theoretical and practical skills in areas such as healthcare support, speech and language therapy assistant, occupational therapy assistant, special needs and classroom assistant, community services, etc. These programmes place a strong emphasis on person-centred practice, empathy, inclusion and professional standards. Learners undertake these courses and gain valuable experience through work placement. We ultimately support the recruitment needs of the sector. Learners can apply their real-world learning through their course to gain employment. We aim to install not just technical skills but also the values of respect and inclusion that are essential in those professions. I am proud to say that Dunboyne College of Further Education is a very supportive, inclusive and forward-looking learning environment preparing the next generation of professionals to work in the healthcare and disability sector with compassion, competence and a strong sense of responsibility.

Dr. Vivian Rath:

I thank the committee for giving us this opportunity to speak today about assistive technology and its role in supporting disabled people to participate fully in education, employment and community life. It is timely that we are having this discussion on Global Accessibility Awareness Day and only a few weeks after the publication of the Assistive Technology Capacity Assessment in Ireland report published by our own Government and the World Health Organization. It is considered a comprehensive review of assistive technology, AT, in Ireland today and we welcome this report. The assessment takes a much wider view of AT and maps out AT provision, from glasses and hearing aids right through to screen readers and power wheelchairs.

Today, we in the Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities, TCPID, and the school of education will present on our experiences of supporting learners who use AT. We will present, from our perspective, the facilitators and enablers of accessing and using AT and identify some opportunities for approved access to such technology. From our experience in TCPID, it is quite clear that AT can significantly improve communication, literacy, self-management, education and employment and that for many disabled people, it is the bridge to participation, autonomy, inclusion and, of course, equal citizenship. Importantly, much of this technology is now mainstream. We are all familiar with smartphones, tablets and laptops. Digital applications have become powerful assistive tools because they are portable, socially accepted, adaptable and reduce stigma, allowing people to access support discreetly and independently throughout the day.

However, despite technological progress, access to AT in Ireland remains fragmented, inconsistent and too dependent on where a person happens to study, work or live. Many students arrive into higher education with limited digital literacy and little opportunity to make informed choices about AT. Frequently, students have only ever used one platform or digital ecosystem in a school setting, for example, Microsoft-based systems, and then transition into higher education environments that may rely heavily on Apple technologies or vice versa. For many students, this transition is not minor. Students are not only adapting to a new educational environment. They are also forced to relearn the very tools that support their engagement. Research also highlights broader systemic barriers, including insufficient training, lack of national guidance, fragmented provision, bureaucratic delays and inconsistent access to support. Teachers, disability staff, families and employers are often expected to navigate a highly complex system without adequate training or co-ordination.

What emerges clearly from the evidence is that AT works best when it is normalised, embedded, person-centred and continuous. This brings us to a critical issue, namely, continuity across transitions. At present, many university AT schemes provide devices only on a loan basis. Students may receive a laptop, tablet or iPad during their studies but ownership remains with the institution so when students graduate, they often must return the device and begin the process again with an employer or another support provider. This is inefficient, disruptive and fundamentally at odds with the principles of continuity, autonomy and participation outlined within the UNCRPD. We would argue that support should travel with the individual. We also need to recognise that AT is not simply equipment. It becomes part of a person's functional independence, identity, confidence and ability to participate. AT should not be tied to a particular institution, programme or funding stream. It should follow the person across school, further and higher education, training, employment and community life.

The evidence also reminds us that inclusion is not simply about physical presence. A student may be present in a classroom or an employee may be present in a workplace and still experience exclusion due to these barriers. Real inclusion requires participation, belonging and self-determination. My PhD involving disabled people themselves consistently highlighted the importance of autonomy, developing those relationships and having their voice heard. In my own work, I have seen where the failure to provide AT in the form of a power wheelchair has acted as a barrier to that wider social engagement. We also need to move away from seeing AT as something specialised or separate. Many features originally developed as disability supports, such as speech-to-text captioning, etc., are now used widely across society. Inclusive technology benefits everyone.

We encourage the committee to consider four key priorities. The first is to ensure continuity of assistive technology supports across transitions between education, training, employment and community life. The second is to move towards person-centred funding models that allow individuals to retain and continue using the technologies they rely upon. The third is to invest in digital literacy, assistive technology training and informed choice throughout the education system from an early stage. The fourth is the develop a coherent national assistive technology strategy grounded in universal design, co-design, accessibility and the rights-based principles of the UNCRPD as outlined in the WHO report published in Ireland a few weeks ago. If Ireland is serious about implementing the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, then assistive technology must be understood not as an optional support, but as part of an infrastructure of inclusion itself.

Dr. Ann Marcus-Quinn:

I thank the Cathaoirligh and members of the joint committees for the opportunity to contribute to this discussion on accessibility in education. My research focuses on digital education, accessibility, inclusive design and how technology can either remove or reinforce barriers to participation in education and society. Much of my work involves examining how we experience digital content in practice. These studies consistently show that accessibility and usability are deeply connected. Students regularly encounter digital content with inaccessible layouts, confusing navigation, poor readability, lack of captioning, inaccessible documents and platforms that assume all learners engage with information in the same way. In my experience once students are introduced to accessibility principles, they quickly begin to question how digital content is designed, who it serves, and who may be excluded. This is why accessibility education should begin early and continue throughout the educational journey. It develops not only technical skills, but also critical thinking, empathy and inclusive design awareness.

An important consideration is the increasing expectation that students create digital content as part of learning and assessment at post-primary level. Through junior cycle classroom-based assessments and additional assessment components at senior cycle, students are often required to produce presentations and other digital content. While these approaches create opportunities for creativity and communication, they also assume a level of digital design knowledge many students have never been explicitly taught. Students are frequently expected to manage layout, readability, structure, accessibility and multimedia design without prior instruction. As a result, they may focus more on navigating unfamiliar technologies than on communicating ideas effectively. This can be particularly challenging for students with additional learning needs.

This is one reason why early accessibility and digital design education is so important. If students are introduced to clear and inclusive digital communication practices from the senior years of primary school onwards, they are better prepared to participate confidently in modern assessment formats. I would like to highlight an ongoing New Foundations research project, Supporting Equity and Educational Design, undertaken with colleagues Dr. Ian Clancy and Dr. Ruth Bourke. It focuses on accessibility and digital content creation at primary school. Much of the national conversation about accessibility focuses on adapting systems after barriers emerge. Our research asks a different question. What if accessibility was embedded from the beginning, from children’s earliest experiences of creating digital content? Children today are increasingly creators of digital content such as presentations, videos, websites and so on. Yet accessibility is rarely taught as a normal part of this process. Our project aims to develop a practical toolkit for primary schools that helps children build accessible digital design habits early. This includes practices such as using readable fonts, clear colour contrast, captions, alt text, structured layouts, plain language and multimodal communication. The goal is not only technical competence, but empathy. When children learn accessibility, they learn to think about classmates with different needs. Accessible design benefits everyone. Captions support multilingual learners, clear structure assists neurodivergent learners and audio supports can help emerging readers. A key concern driving this work is what we describe as the fossilisation of mistakes. If inaccessible design habits become normalised early, they risk becoming embedded in the systems and technologies of the future. By contrast, if accessibility becomes a natural part of digital literacy from the beginning, we can help shape a generation that sees inclusion not as an afterthought, but as standard practice. As Ireland continues to navigate digital education, accessibility must be understood not as a niche issue, but as a core principle of equitable participation in society.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Rath noted that students are not coming to third level colleges digitally literate. It is surprising for us to hear that. Our sense of young people today is that they are born digital natives. This is slightly different from "digital accessibility", which is an interesting term. It would be interesting to develop a greater conversation about that than I can have in four minutes. How can we make sure that the digital natives are digital natives?

Dr. Vivian Rath:

That is a good question. To give one of my team members an opportunity, I ask Dr. McGuckin to answer that question.

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

There is a difference in the notion of digital natives and a lot of social media use. Some schools are completely technology-driven iPad schools, and others are not. We have a wide disparity in practice, knowledge and confidence. That is not just among the children but among the teachers. Dr. Rath brought up universal design. We are fortunate to have in the legislation a mandate for the centre for universal design in the National Disability Authority. It is hard to argue with a lot of the content of the report Dr. Rath mentioned. Quite a lot of universal design and the interpretation of universal design for learning, UDL, in higher education is a game-changer. We need to see that stepped back down into education. We can start to see it emerging in schools, but we have a bit of a way to go. This cuts to a lot of what everyone is talking about in the context of inclusion and being person-centred. It is not just for that person. It is not singling out that person. It profits everyone.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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This question is for Dr. Marcus-Quinn. Are the same issues limiting digital accessibility? Is there a convergence of issues here?

Dr. Ann Marcus-Quinn:

They cannot be separated. If we are going to start teaching people digital competencies, we need to build accessibility in early on.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I have a question about the personal assistants in the institution. It is interesting. My own experience of working with young people was that we can have all the technology the world can give us, but the best instrument I recall in school to ensure accessibility and educational participation was good people. I speak particularly of teachers and SNAs. I am interested in the role of personal assistants, PAs. What is their academic background?

Ms Emer Cloak:

The role of personal assistant is akin to that of an SNA in a primary or secondary school. Their role is basically to help with the onboarding of students when they come into further education to help them develop their learner plans and support them in accessing materials and all of that. The key difference with PAs in further education is that their pay and conditions are vastly inferior to those of an SNA. They are on an hourly rate of approximately €21. They are only paid for the academic year. They need to sign on during the summer and they have no incremental scale.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I noted in her presentation that 30% of the students have additional need.

That is 450 students in Ms Fox and Ms Cloak's institution.

Ms Catherine Fox:

And that is only the ones who have declared their needs.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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How many personal assistants are there?

Ms Catherine Fox:

We had five and unfortunately we had a resignation so as of this week we are down to four.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is one per 90 pupils who need them.

Ms Catherine Fox:

The PAs are based in the academic learning hub and they work there in small groups and on a one-on-one basis.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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If personal assistance is on a one-on-one basis, that is one per 90 pupils.

Ms Catherine Fox:

Yes.

Ms Emer Cloak:

The model is not that they follow the student the way it is at second level. It is that they are there to support. The students come to them. However, we are stretched far too thin.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it the school's budget that decides there are five?

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Ms Catherine Fox:

We receive funding from SOLAS and the Department of further and higher education for the employment of personal assistants. We have a pay and non-pay aspect to the budget.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Are they also in the higher education sector?

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy.

I am going to take the next speaking slot because I have to leave; I apologies. I have to declare I was on the board of Dunboyne College when I was a member of the Louth and Meath Education and Training Board, LMETB, so I am very proud its staff here. I agree with speakers saying assistive technology should be part of the infrastructure for inclusion rather than an optional support. As Dr. Marcus-Quinn said, the embedding of accessibility in digital literacy as a default rather than anything special or different.

Dunboyne College has only four personal assistants. Is the current funding structure flexible enough to sustain the long-term supports and how do we ensure there is not that postcode lottery? Is the latest report looking towards that?

Ms Catherine Fox:

Obviously we can only speak on behalf of Dunboyne College and the budgets we are allocated by the LMETB, SOLAS and by the Department of further and higher education. We welcome all levels of funding. They do their best and we get a substantial amount in order to support the students. The issue we are seeing is the growing need - the growing number of students who are coming into us - which means we are stretching our budget. Even if budgets increase we are still stretching the budget all the time. The hidden needs of students like anxiety and mental health issues that they are not declaring and that perhaps they do not recognise as a need, are stretching all of our staff, including our teaching staff, our caretaker and admin support staff and our personal assistants. We will never say "No" to any more funding and we recognise SOLAS, the Department and the LMETB are doing their best in giving us funding. We welcome the fact that in the new FET strategy one of the key goals is inclusivity and inclusion but we could always do with more.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Would an educational personalised budget support that cliff edge between having assistive technology and moving to not having it? How would that suit institutions?

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

This cuts back to a wider issue we see in education. Children and young people, right through from the access and inclusion model through inclusion in schools support schemes, SNAs and everything else, do not just live within the education system, as they are also engaged with the health system. They are having to try to traverse, with their supporters, two different systems at the same time. This cuts back to what Dr. Rath said about the UNCRPD and being person-centred. It is not so hard to envisage a passport-type system that, when you have got it, you do not have to keep going back through assessments at every transition point. Some of those should be natural for the time they are needed. We see quite often young people are coming to us who have to learn in the university system, learn with us and we have to do the digital literacy stuff. Things are not transitioning with the young person. They need to transition. For example, if we are able to give assistive technology to the student such as a laptop, perhaps at the end of the two years the laptop is pretty much obsolete for anyone else but because of funding we cannot allow the student to keep it, so we have a laptop that is not easily repurposed. We need to have it be much more personalised and person-centred. In the report it is brilliant but we need to amplify and listen a lot more to the voice of the young person and of their supporters to get to where we need to get to.

Dr. Vivian Rath:

Would the Chair mind if I made a comment?

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Briefly, please.

Dr. Vivian Rath:

It is just to follow up. You asked a question about funding and I understand we can come back to it later but there has been an approximately 364% increase in the number of disabled students reporting seeking supports in college. That is by the head figures. Unfortunately, the fund for students with disabilities has not kept pace with that rise. That stretches services trying to provide for all the assistive technology students may need. That is recognising that, as we said earlier, many assistive technologies are now widely available. However, often it can be important to be able to access the licence for a piece of assistive technology. I wanted to mention that. There are also difficulties in FET accessing the fund for students with disabilities.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you very much.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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What do the witnesses see as the biggest barriers in workforce planning and training for personal assistants and teaching staff across the different sectors? What needs to be done to enhance that?

Ms Catherine Fox:

One of the key areas we would recommend is that when teachers are qualifying there be a focus in what is now the PME, postgraduate masters, on universal design for learning and inclusivity. There is an element of that. We host quite a number of PME students with our colleagues from Maynooth University and the National College of Ireland, NCI. We give them the practical experience when they are doing their teacher training with us on how to embed UDL and how to work with students with diverse needs.

Our PAs have access to the CPD we organise as a college. We would recommend, as part of the overall approach to personal assistants and their terms and conditions - there are ongoing talks between Fórsa and the Department on those - that there is a career pathway, training and support for the development of that role.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I thank Ms Fox. On in-person courses, are there barriers to getting in the door in the first place? Does anyone want to make a comment on transport or housing in relation to accessibility?

Ms Catherine Fox:

We are in 31 rented units in a business park. We have six prefabs and seven off-site centres. We are not in a purpose-built college. We are in buildings that have been converted from offices, warehouses, etc., so accessibility for us in the college is a major issue. Elsewhere in the FET sector, a lot of our colleagues in other colleges around the country have purpose-built buildings. We cannot make any changes to the buildings we have because we do not own them and we have to work in co-operation with landlords. We are spread out all over the business park in Dunboyne.

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

Transport and housing are not particular issues for us in the Trinity centre for people with intellectual disabilities but for the university and universities more broadly transport and housing are some of the single biggest threats to the sense of inclusion, belonging and success in university education. It is writ large for us that we need to think very seriously about transport and housing.

If we go back to the Senator's question about workforce planning, we are slightly different from SNAs in schools and the PAs in Dunboyne College. Within the Trinity centre we have my colleagues Ms Barbara Ringwood and Ms Emer Murphy who are senior occupational therapists. That kind of support is really important for what we are trying to do. We have worked with SOLAS on this and it is a universal design for learning approach, yet again. Most people think of occupational therapy in a very clinical sense but when you see it in an educational setting for the programme but also the work readiness and the work we do with the business partners it is another creative and innovative way we can raise that ship for everyone. We are very fortunate. We have access to the funding from the Department via the HEA, namely, the programme for access to higher education, PATH.

PATH 4, phase 1 is the money for universal design for learning and it has been a game-changer. This will rule out a lot of the problems we have with accessibility, assessment, engagement and participation. PATH 4, phase 2 is particularly focused on courses for students in higher education who have an intellectual disability. We are very fortunate and thankful for the extension of that funding, which allows us to do what we do, to have Ms Barbara Ringwood and Ms Emer Murphy to enact inclusion and to enact a voice to be able to show these students studying at level five that they can participate in higher education and make a meaningful contribution to the workplace and to society. For us, the workforce planning comes in at that end.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being with us today, especially our special guest, Ulreeka. It is great to see it. I also thank the witnesses for their opening statements and answers so far. They have been really informative. I will come back to Ms Fox. It was touched on by my colleague here already. She is in County Meath, which is fantastic and is my constituency. It is probably the only time I do not mention the distinction between Meath East and Meath West, Meath West being my area. We are very lucky and grateful to have some of the other locations in Meath West, such as in Athboy, and we are very grateful to have it in the town. Some of the courses are there, as there are fantastic students contributing. We have touched on the challenges Ms Fox and her colleagues have of not being on the one campus. It must be very difficult to create a community and provide supports to students. Will Ms Fox expand on what, if they were on that one campus, they could do better to cater for students with disabilities and additional needs?

Ms Catherine Fox:

I thank Deputy Dempsey. We draw a lot of students from Meath West, Meath East and the greater Dunboyne area, north Kildare and Dublin 15, which is one of the largest growing demographic areas in the country. Incidentally, we receive more applications than we have places, overall. It does present a range of resource issues in terms of funding and especially of time. The time it takes to manage a dispersed campus is incredible. Consistency of provision is difficult to maintain in terms of the services and resources to provide to students. We have our engineering construction students based in Athboy. Students from our music and film courses are also based off site. That consistency of provision means those students can only access the academic hub and learning hub when they are actually on campus. We are very hopeful about having a new building, and when we have it, it will be centralised and we hope all of our students will be based in that central location.

The range and type of buildings we are in at the moment are very limited and accessibility and physical space are very limited, so a purpose-built fixed campus will allow us to have universal design in the design and accessibility of it. We do not have any ability at the moment to make any changes to any of our buildings, so we are looking forward to having a whole new college campus to play with in terms of design.

The sensory and environmental considerations are very important for our students and it is something we bring to the attention of applicants, in that they are coming into a busy business park. There are lots of noises, etc., in that area. It is not conducive to studying and to working for students who perhaps want silence and to concentrate on their learning. It is not conducive to working for our staff, so a new college will allow this in its design and development. Overall, the consistency, the centralisation of support, the communication with students and all of that is what we hope to see in a new building. We acknowledge the work of the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, SOLAS and our own Louth and Meath Education and Training Board, LMETB, in getting us to the stage where we do have that.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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When Ms Fox mentioned the learning and support hub, those personal assistants have to stay centrally, so they are never out in the seven other locations and the students must come to them at all times.

Ms Catherine Fox:

Yes. On occasion, we have sent some of the personal assistants to off-site centres, but they are far more effective when they are based in the central hub as opposed to with, perhaps, 100 students in Athboy who are in class and who may not draw on their presence there. Yes, it is about the centralisation. It is having everything in one place. From a management point of view and a time point of view, it is one electricity bill, one water bill and one central location. If we want to get a message out to any students at the moment, it is through text messages and emails. We are all over the business park and in other off-site centres. It is about the communication, which is very important to students who are accessing and want to access resources.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for their attendance and presentations. Obviously, from what has been said, early education and training is vitally important. Where should that start? What should it look like? Has it started already? What is the situation in relation to that?

How are the actual pieces of equipment purchased? Are they purchased by the colleges, the student or is it part and parcel of this?

A point was made about carrying that piece of equipment on into employment or further training. How does that work?

Is there a general base of statistics available that would create a platform for producing and directing the kind of educational services that the colleges are producing? Do we know the numbers, effectively, who are coming in to the colleges, not just who are there at the moment but in the future, so that demand can be dealt with?

Ms Catherine Fox:

We could start on the equipment. We purchase the equipment centrally in the college and it is loaned out to the students. They have access to laptops and other types of technology, and students can access that there. It allows us to update that equipment regularly as it becomes obsolete.

In terms of the statistics and data available, I know my colleagues in SOLAS have people from the skills and labour market research unit, SLMRU, in SOLAS working with the Central Statistics Office, CSO, looking at the tracking of students through their PPS numbers. There are the statistics that are available from primary and secondary schools that will give an indication of what is coming into further and higher education. You cannot predict if a student is going to opt for further or for higher education. It is not a linear transition, so there is an element of that there. We do not know really, from year to year, how many applications we will get for any specific type of assistance until the applications come into us. We do know that, in general, we can say that it is 30% of our cohort would be in that range, so we can do some forward planning. I am not sure about my colleagues in higher education.

Mr. Des Aston:

AHEAD Ireland would be the ones who have the most recent figures. It publishes annual figures on the number of students doing further and higher education and accessing support for disability services and things like that. I am not sure off the top of my head of the numbers around assistive technology but I think-----

Dr. Vivian Rath:

Sorry for interrupting. I mentioned the figure earlier that there has been a 364% increase in the number of students entering higher education who are seeking disability support., As Mr. Aston rightly mentioned, they are the AHEAD figures. That roughly works out at about 8% of the student population. Again, I will highlight that those are the students who are actively going to disability support services and seeking supports. That does not include students who may not have disclosed and who are maybe working away on their own. We have some good indication of what the general needs would be. In the WHO report it was noted, and the Deputy is quite right in that, that there is a need for better planning around the data related to it, but at the moment we have a good indication.

Another barrier we run into in higher education is that we cannot buy in advance or plan well enough. We have to wait until the student is actually sitting on a seat in the institution before we can do so. This creates challenges and for some students it delays entry to college. As mentioned earlier, it is not only about the digital aspect but also equipment such as hearing aids or powered wheelchairs. Earlier I mentioned that in one of my pieces of research on social engagement a student reported they did not have their new powered wheelchair from the HSE. Perhaps this is a barrier we do not consider as much with regard to how it affects students.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. Rath has set out the issues very well. We need to stop looking at equipment as equipment; it is part of a person's life that enables them to become part of society in full capacity. Looking at equipment as equipment is the wrong way to go about it. There is the fact that equipment is on loan and does not travel with the person. Equipment should be given centrally and it should stay with the person. The only issue I would see with this is an institution using different software and the equipment not being compatible. We need to look at how this works universally.

The cost of a laptop for school is phenomenal and it puts pressure on parents. We have the national access plan for 2022 to 2028 which has in it universal design approaches, inclusive learning environments and the use of supportive technology. How far along are we on this? Will it be complete in 2028 and will it provide full participation?

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

We are definitely emerging and it is developing. Especially with the enabling money and universal design in PATH 4, phase 1, we are on the pathway and trajectory. Most of the higher education institutions are at the embedding and planning stage of whole-of-institution approaches. I hope the next national access plan will have inclusion and access as well as belonging as a central pillar. As Deputy McGettigan rightly said, these are not just pieces of technology but are part and parcel of the person's life.

We keep talking about success in higher education as being enabled to go to the workforce or further education, but a key element is that people feel they are included and that they belong. Sometimes even more important than this, at a very personal level, is that a person feels they matter enough for things to have been thought through. We are definitely seeing the emergence of this. Higher education institutions are very definitely warmed up to it. They are asking why they would need to have a disability service if they were able to embed universal design for learning into all aspects of the institution and not just into teaching, learning and assessment. Once a whole-of-institution approach is taken, a lot of the issues dissipate.

As Dr. Rath has said, this is for the people who have disclosed, but a lot of students do not disclose because it is yet another time in their life when they have to do so. If it has to do with assistive technology, they have to do so yet again. We all profit from universal design such as moving escalators and remote controls. Software and a lot of technology is becoming better at universal design and its enactment. Very definitely the universities are getting there. With the next national access plan we could see a universal design for learning approach writ large across the higher education landscape.

The new FET strategy has been mentioned and it is wonderful. We were involved in the development, with regard to the universal design for learning guidelines in the FET policy. We look forward to the new tertiary strategy where we will see a linking up. Some of our learners come from further education and training and some go back to further education and training. We have to move away from the binary approach that it is one or the other. Yet again, UDL becomes a benchmark for it. It does not threaten anyone, it supports everyone and it helps everyone to be successful, to be included and to belong, to come back to Deputy McGettigan's point.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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As Dr. Rath rightly said, if we are serious about UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, we need to enact it in full.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for being here, for their opening statements and for their interaction. We learn and get information from the interaction. I will ask about the pieces of the jigsaw that have not been addressed, although a lot has been addressed by previous speakers. I want to ask about co-creation. At other meetings the single most important message has been nothing for us without us in terms of collaboration. What type of collaboration and co-creation exists in each of the three organisations? Are there opportunities? Ms Ringwood's role is occupational therapist and Dunboyne College has a course offering for the role of occupational therapist assistant. We hear from the HSE about deficits in recruitment, whether for social care services, inclusive education and working through the NCSE. We have three groups of expertise today. What opportunities are there for collaboration and co-creation? Is this happening? Are their voices being requested as national policy and strategy is developed? I note Dr. Rath's point on the lack of national guidance. Are the witnesses involved in this? Where do they see potential? After today will there be opportunities for them to collaborate and co-create with disabled persons' organisations?

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

There is co-creation at different levels. We very much embed universal design for learning. As Deputy Toole said, nothing about us without us. Every aspect of what we do in TCPID has the students and learners as co-creators. They are co-imaginers with us. We have had a successful co-learning pilot, with our students at level 5 sitting in with level 8 honours level students in English, co-learning in the same space at the same time. We are taking this forward whereby they will be able to do it for credit. We very clearly do it in every aspect.

On most other days one of our students or graduates is with us and I would say our colleagues are the same. I invite colleagues to visit us to see co-creation in action because sometimes we do have to see it in action. At national level in terms of policy, I will ask Mr Aston to speak about our leadership, co-creation and policy.

Mr. Des Aston:

As Dr. McGuckin mentioned, the Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disability is based in the school of education. We are also heavily involved in working on the HEA community of practice on the PATH 4 initiative. We are also heavily involved with the inclusive national higher education forum, which is a collection of faculties from various universities throughout the country running programmes specifically for students with intellectual disabilities. Quite often at these meetings and gatherings the student input and voice are central to how it works.

Another collaborative group we work with is the INCLUD-ID Network, which is a smaller group of universities and technological universities running programmes for students with intellectual disabilities. Our colleague, Jill Woodnutt, co-ordinates this network and has been central in supporting some of the newer programmes to get off the ground, looking at student supports inside and outside the classroom across the entire campus, looking at transitions to employment, further education or whatever it is, and looking at what type of supports are required specifically for students with intellectual disabilities that might support academic staff who are new to this area. I hope this answers the question on our role in working with other institutions and the role of the student voice in the process.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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Will UL and Dunboyne come in very briefly on the co-creation piece and collaboration?

Ms Catherine Fox:

We work with industry. We work very closely with the HSE and have been engaging with QQI on the redevelopment of courses in the whole healthcare area. We also work very closely with our partners in higher education. We have worked with Maynooth University on developing a pathway for 50% of the places being for further education students on the institution's new degree in nursing. Internally, for co-creation, we work with industry and employers to ensure the assignments and assessments the students sit are relevant to what they are doing but also take into account UDL and reasonable accommodation. We have flexible learning pathways for their education also.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome everyone here today, especially our furry witness, Ulreeka. It is a first for me. It is a special day to have a dog in here. I welcome the two committees coming together for this very important topic. I am a firm believer that everyone should reach their full potential, whatever that may be. The work the witnesses do allows this to happen, so I thank them again.

I will start with Ms Fox. How does she think her college could support the disability sector more?

Ms Catherine Fox:

This goes back to Deputy Toole's question regarding the development of those new roles, whether they are allied healthcare roles in the areas of speech and language therapy assistant, healthcare assistant, special needs or classroom assistant. We train students in these growing areas, and it is one way we could support the sector, in preparing people to go straight into employment in these areas.

I also mentioned the development of pathways from further education into higher education so that we are producing professionals who are qualified in areas of demand, such as occupational therapy, speech and language therapy, etc.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Fox for that. What practical policy changes do those from TCPID think are needed to ensure assistive technology follows individuals right across from education and training to employment, so that they do not need to apply for every step they take? What practical policy changes could be made so that once it happens, you have it?

Mr. Des Aston:

The assistive technology passport idea was cited from an Inclusion Ireland report in 2022, in collaboration with Create. There is a model there for a passport system, where assistive technology can follow the individual and not be assigned directly to the institution. That would need to come in under some form of national strategy on assistive technology. There needs to be continuity across those different life stages, and the passport would be one model of doing that.

For that to happen, there needs to be genuine cross-departmental co-ordination and buy-in. Quite often, it is more the bureaucracy of procurement, licensing and things like that which get in the way of this idea of devices, applications and licences moving from one institution or organisation to another. Other than that, the co-design we talked about as part of that, involving disabled people and people with intellectual disabilities in that process of looking at a national strategy or passport system, is essential.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Aston for that. In the short time I have left, I want to ask Dr. Marcus-Quinn how prepared she thinks teachers are to teach accessible digital design, and what supports or training they require. She might expand on that.

Dr. Ann Marcus-Quinn:

That is a very good question. There an awful lot of work being done by Oide in particular. However, as is the tradition with teaching in this country, a lot of the time, there just is not the sufficient resources or time for teachers to do the upskilling they need. Many good teachers will end up doing it themselves.

If we look at the level of active participation in the likes of the Computer Education Society of Ireland, CESI, lists, it is very solution driven. People will go there with their problems, and people are very quick to offer solutions. All of this is done outside of official structures. I am aware there is only so much money in the pot, but when it comes to teachers' time and the money that is there, it is finite.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach and all the speakers, who gave very informative presentations. Obviously, there is great work being done across the country and a lot more to be done. My background is in primary education, including special education, and we would have often used audiovisual technology in the classroom.

I fully agree with Dr. Rath, a fellow north Wexford man who is very welcome here, that inclusive technology must travel with the individual up to third level and employment so that they do not lose independence. That passport suggestion would be very good if we could get that implemented as part of a strategy, as would having literacy for all students around inclusive technology to make it easier and so that everybody is aware. Even simple suggestions like colour contrast in text, which would assist children, as Dr. Rath mentioned, who have not been identified as having these needs. We are talking about maybe 8% of the student population with these needs who are seeking supports, but there are many others who are disguised. You see that in primary education where you can stumble across it, almost, because it can be very easily masked.

As the previous speaker said regarding the Oide programme for teacher training, often not enough time is put aside for teacher training and many teachers complain about overload, but we should definitely have better models in the teacher training colleges for this. There is also the suggestion on compatibility of design, that it would be universal so that you would not be switching between Android and iPad forms.

In the limited time available, the speakers might provide their thoughts on the modern high-tech smartphone which nearly everybody has and has so many apps available. Do the witnesses have any thoughts on how this could be modified, with apps, to assist people in certain ways? As Dr. Rath said, there is an increase in the need and there will, therefore, be an increase in funding. What are the speakers' thoughts on funding? What should we aim for in budget 2027 in October that this committee could recommend to Government? Obviously, there is a far greater need for funding.

Dr. Ann Marcus-Quinn:

At the very beginning of this session, Dr. Rath spoke about the fragmented provision we see for assistive technology. That ripples down through all our education sectors, be it primary, secondary or third level. At primary level, there are some schools getting early access to some kind of digital experience while there are others where students do not get very much at all. This makes the transition to secondary school very difficult. It is often at that stage that issues begin to emerge. If there were more of a level playing field in the provision of resources - that ICT grant - for primary schools to make it more equitable across the board, this would be a very good start. It does not have to be expensive technology. There is a lot that can be done with very basic laptops for primary or second level without having to buy expensive tablets or digital technology.

Mr. Will Carty:

Smartphones are a huge tool in respect of the applications we can install on them to assist students. It is also important, however, that students get access to other devices like laptops to understand how files work and things like that. When we talk about digital literacy, this is one of the issues we have in further education. Students come in and are good at using applications on their smartphones, which is brilliant, and there are applications to assist students, but there is also a need for them to understand how to use other devices, to move away from an Android or iPhone and use simple things like saving files, uploading files and different file formats.

Dr. Vivian Rath:

I just want to note one thing. My colleague, Mr. Aston, mentioned that there is a need for a national assistive technology programme. It is really important that we take this more strategic approach and do like Deputy Ó Súilleabháin says, which is to set out a budget and a target for a number of years and then work to that. It would ensure that we work right across the lifespan from the very early school ages - perhaps prior to primary school - right through the ages to more senior people. That is number one. It is a very important aspect of it.

The last point I want to make is really important. We have talked a lot about digital. Phones were mentioned. I did a piece of research a couple of years ago on disabled people on a professional placement in different professional industries. Let us take medicine, for example. Phones are a great technology, but often they were prohibited from using their phone because of concerns around data protection and this acted as a real barrier. I will leave that for a minute and come back to it later if necessary.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. Rath.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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Like others, I welcome all our contributors here today. I very much welcome their very strong contributions. Understandably, they all had a very strong emphasis on accessibility. Easy and proper access is essential for all learners to remove barriers. That is a given for all of us. Of course, that should be the norm not the exception. I understand that additional resources have been provided at primary and secondary level for students with additional needs. I heard complaints elsewhere, in particular within the further education sector, about inadequate support for such students in the further and higher education sector. If we as a committee were to give a specific message to SOLAS, in the case of further education, and to the Department of further and higher education, what message would the witnesses like us to give them? What reasonable measures could be taken to improve the situation, particularly in the immediate term?

All of the colleges deserve great credit for the supports they are providing, with limited financial resources. As Ms Fox outlined, rather than having a single campus there are often multiple divided campuses providing education. Do potential students and entrants to colleges and universities know about the supports that may be available for them? The Irish Universities Association gave a presentation to Oireachtas Members a week ago. It outlined in particular the value of the disability access route to education, DARE, programme and the higher education access route, HEAR, in outlining the alternative pathways to admission to college.

I often fear that the people who most need the support are not reached. Ms Fox will remember this from her good work in the Cavan Institute when we dealt with cross-Border programmes. I have often seen that very valuable PEACE programmes in particular did not reach the people who needed the support most. Do the witnesses think that is happening because of the lack of knowledge about the supports that are available for people with additional needs? Some of them do not declare it. Is there enough amplification of the supports available made at second level before students complete their leaving certificate? Have the witnesses come across instances of a cohort of people who are ideal for the courses and additional supports who, unfortunately, did not know about them or get the opportunity to avail of them?

Ms Catherine Fox:

The Deputy understands that I can only comment on what happens with us in Dunboyne and cannot comment on the wider sector. In terms of the recommendations and the communications element of it, the work of the cohort of guidance counsellors and the second level schools that we work with are very clear in transferring that information to leaving certificate students and to applicants. It is perhaps those who are not in the second level education system who may not be as informed about the supports. It also comes down to whether the students want to declare the need and want to access that support. It is declining, but there would have been a stigma associated with seeking that extra support at all stages. As the Deputy knows from my background in communications, it is very much about communications, knowledge and getting the information out there. Guidance counsellors across the schools, and our own guidance counsellors in further education, do a tremendous job in getting that information out. My colleague, Ms Cloak, might want to say a few words on that.

Ms Emer Cloak:

There is an increasing awareness of the supports that are available at further education but there is a huge disparity between the supports available at second level and those available in further education. Very often we find that parents of students with additional needs come in and say they cannot believe that he had an SNA the whole way up and now he is expected to function in a college where there are 1,400 students without a personal assistant assigned to him, even for part of his time. We cannot do that because we cannot retain our personal assistants. It is very difficult to recruit them because of their conditions. With all of what we were talking about regarding digital literacy and maybe embedding it from the very beginning, which is great and will be fantastic if and when it happens, we cannot ignore the human touch and the importance of people in helping and encouraging students with additional needs.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the emphasis in Dunboyne College on healthcare training. The Minister was with us at the committee recently and we advocated for more work in the further education sector in preparing people for work in healthcare. Do the colleges have a problem getting placements in the private sector and in the HSE for their students?

Ms Catherine Fox:

Once again, I am commenting on behalf of Dunboyne College. We work very closely with the healthcare sector. We have a very strong healthcare department. We only launched a clinical skills room last week with the Minister for Health and the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade. We work very hard to get those placements. We are in a catchment area in Dunboyne, unlike when I was in Cavan, which would not necessarily have the widespread availability of placements. We do have co-operation from the private healthcare sector and also somewhat from the HSE. We would welcome a lot more of it. The HSE looks to our colleagues in higher education for placements. It has commitments that it must deliver there. It is very hard for HSE facilities to facilitate all of the demand for placement. We would welcome more. We can help them more.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Fox very much.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the witnesses very much. This has been a very interesting discussion. I welcome the opening statements in particular. To give some context, I am a former lecturer in TU Dublin and I had many students in my classes who would have required supports. What I found fascinating about the statements the witnesses gave is that I was not even aware of a lot of those things that were being provided. That is very impressive. I thank them for all of that. I am also aware that more needs to be done because I did have students who struggled.

I also want to highlight to other members of the committee that I had students in first year and again in third year who were transformed in that period of time because of the extra supports. They went from being shy and not willing to work in a group at all to everybody wanting them in their group by third year. The support and all of the assistance can be hugely transformative for students. It allows them to thrive and to be fully part of society, to all our benefit. I urge the witnesses to keep doing all of this good work and to keep maintaining that advocacy. I have personally seen the benefits of doing it to the individual and to society. I want to highlight that and why it is so important.

I would like to get insights from the witnesses on two aspects of their personal experience. One is what Ms Fox referred to as the need for the individual student to declare their need. I certainly saw that as a barrier. It was something that myself and my colleagues found quite challenging. Again, it is another pressure point we are putting on somebody in first year when there is so much going on.

This is another thing students have to learn, another process they have to go through. Often, it will not happen until quite late in the semester. After that, there are the assessments and this is when students would come to me and tell me they had a need for this or that. That would cause me distress and they are also distressed. We are all distressed and trying to do the right thing. Is there a better way of doing that?

Students have to say this to each individual lecturer. Some lecturers are quite friendly but others can be quite intimidating. Again, that is a huge pressure to put on the individual student. We do not expect that of everybody else. There are some students I would not get to know over an entire year because they would not interact with me, for whatever reason, and that is their choice. In this case, however, students are forced to engage. Those are two things I have struggled with, as a lecturer. I would love hear any insights the witnesses may have on that.

Ms Catherine Fox:

With us, one declaration is made to the college and we then inform the relevant staff members. That is done through my colleague, Catherine Joyce, Ulreeka's handler, who is here behind me. In terms of the approach, like our colleagues in TCD have mentioned, it is universal design for learning. We try to make sure that all the assessments can cater for all of the needs, whether it is additional educational needs or ISL. My colleague Ms Cloak may wish to comment on that.

Ms Emer Cloak:

A class mentor is assigned to each group and it is his or her responsibility to filter down to the individual teachers of that group any student who has declared an additional need and is comfortable to disclose it. We hope that our UDL enables us to reach as many students as possible because we have multiple means of presenting coursework. Students are allowed multiple means of displaying evidence or doing assignments. We try to get it at that level. Obviously, there are students who have disclosed a need and then that is filtered down to students but it is done centrally.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte romhaibh go léir. Dr. Marcus-Quinn, in her opening statement, indicated that her research asked what if accessibility was embedded from the beginning. That is a really important question. Was the new primary school curriculum considered as part of her research? If accessibility is embedded from an early age, there is inclusivity across the board and that will continue in life, which is what we need to see happen.

It has been mentioned that access to supports in further and higher education level has been quite difficult compared with primary and post-primary education. I hear all the time from parents of children in primary and post-primary education about the difficulty they have in accessing assistive technology, which is diagnosis based and involves going through a long process. I am waiting for the Department of Education and Youth to answer a question I asked about how long people are waiting for assistive technology. I know that in some cases, students are waiting months, if not sometimes a year. That wait has a huge impact on children's education if they are struggling in school and need the technology. Not only do the students feel they need assistive technology, but their parents and schools need it too. It makes sense that reasonable accommodations and supports should follow the person right through school and into further and higher education. We need a universal design model to address that.

Dr. Rath, in his opening statement, mentioned a "move towards person-centred funding models", by which I presume he means personalised budgets or something like that. Again, that can be quite a complicated process. How does he see that being delivered? Some people manage it very well, while others find it quite difficult to do.

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

Obviously, with all policy and practice there will be points where it becomes clunky and those issues will arise. There is a good opportunity here if we were to enact the World Health Organization policy. We have something that is camera-ready to trial that, namely, the Education and Training Boards Ireland, ETBI, system, which operates community national schools at primary level and post-primary education up to further and higher education. We can embed a seamless transition access inclusion model there for this.

The Senator mentioned the family level. At a personal level, I have experienced this. We have a child who has transitioned from mainstream primary to special school. As part of that transition process, we had to get a brand-new NEPS psychology report, which mentioned that assistive technology was essential but, on the point of transition, the SENO said "No". We are now in the school two years and we have made appeals. At some point, something has to go in because if one professional says assistive technology is essential, then it is essential for that pathway. I do not think many people are going to tell lies about what they need in terms of technology or access. They are just trying to do it. If they are trying to do that, it is probably one of multiple appointments with multiple clinicians on multiple issues to do with school that they have to deal with. This is something that we could very easily rule out.

Universal design keeps coming up as a solution, going back to the PME and the Teaching Council. We can talk broadly about inclusive education and say it is wonderful that inclusive education is working. Look at the SNAs in schools and the number of pupils who are progressing to further and higher education. If we were to mandate that just a little bit more, not just as regards inclusion but also universal design for learning, digital literacy and assistive technology, it would be very easily done. The multiplier effect means that would be amplified into the teaching profession and move the whole way through. We could embed the other things with it so that, by the time the students reach further and higher education, these things will have already been mitigated. We could even go beyond that to early years education, where we have the access and inclusion model, and do it there. Why would you have to keep redoing that at a personal level?

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Yes, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte romhaibh go léir. Where to stop and start with assistive technology? It depends on the cohort to be facilitated. Students have gained huge access to communication through augmentative and alternative communication, AAC, and the rapid prompting method, RPM. We have all seen brilliant examples of it but we have not seen those facilities employed for all children and families.

I was taken by what was said earlier about transition between schools. We all understand that transition is generally a disaster, whether it is from early childhood care to primary school or from there to secondary school or into third level. There is no element of consistency. That is not to say things have not improved or that there are not outlier educationalists who are making things happen, but we cannot be reliant on that.

There has been, at some level, a move away from the use of tablets in the general school population because book learning has its place. We have all come across people who need assistive technology but have not been offered it. I have been contacted by parents who applied for a grant for assistive technology and were told their child would really benefit from the technology but they do not fit the criteria. They spoke about how difficult it was for their child to do a dyslexia test. I have brought this issue to the attention of the Minister. Finding a solution is taking a lot longer than I anticipated but there must be a wider issue, and I want to ask about that.

There are a lot of difficulties, for example, the issues being experienced by SNAs and the worries of parents. In terms of third level, we have talked about the college in Dunboyne but there are issues in the Ó Fiaich Institute of Further Education and the Drogheda Institute of Further Education. There is a particular issue with personal assistants who facilitate people with extra needs to remain in education. Fórsa lodged a pay claim. The fact is we are still talking about an unsuitable contract, which is not a 52-week contract. If we were serious about delivering for people with disabilities, we would also deliver for those who are needed in order to facilitate that, while accepting whatever changes that are necessary from the point of view of work specifications. I think people are open to that.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Deputy have any questions?

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would like the witnesses to comment on those issues. The number of people who cannot access assistive technology shows that we are not serious about it.

It is just as simple as that.

Ms Catherine Fox:

On the issue of disability - and we recognise the Deputy's contributions to the whole debate about personal assistance over the past number of years - we fully agree with him. The whole issue of personal assistance-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want that on the record because nobody has ever said that before.

Ms Catherine Fox:

On behalf of our sister colleges, the Ó Fiaich Institute of Further Education in Dundalk and the Drogheda Institute of Further Education, we agree with the Deputy, and we welcome all support for our colleagues who are personal assistants. We also would like to acknowledge the work done by my predecessor, Denis Leonard. I only took up the role of principal last September but Denis has been-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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He was a big proponent in fairness to him.

Ms Catherine Fox:

He was a massive proponent of the role of personal assistant. We are carrying on his work on that.

In terms of the Deputy's reference to the disaster of the transfer, it is not as much of a disaster for us in further education. Students come to us and once they declare their need, we work with them. I suppose it is the scale that we operate at. We are smaller. We have that personal contact with students. We have the opportunity for our teachers to be flexible and adaptable, and a lot of praise goes to the teachers who take on a lot of extra work.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It can be better than what is going on in universities-----

Ms Catherine Fox:

Yes, it can be better.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, but it is also better than what happens sometimes in universities.

Ms Catherine Fox:

Yes. In terms of further education, we support the students, and we have some fantastic outcomes for students who have transitioned to us.

Ms Emer Cloak:

We literally provide a bridge between second level and higher education or the world of work. We have had so many success stories of students who would not have survived in university but have flourished with us.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Deputy.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I got cut off. I should have just jumped in.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I am well used to it with the Deputy. We are now at the midway point of the meeting. I propose that we suspend for just under ten minutes and come back at 11.10 a.m.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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Before we suspended, we had just concluded round 1 so we will begin round 2. We will go back into the rota as it was. Everybody will have two minutes and if there is time, people can come in again afterwards.

I will make a few comments and welcome everybody to the committee. It is great that we have a joint meeting of the two committees. These are really useful for us. On behalf of the Committee on Disability Matters, I welcome everyone who has come here. I will put a few comments on record for when we do a report from this. Universal design and inclusion are key to achieving the right to education and training, which is enshrined in the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities. In Ireland, there is compliance at a minimal level with the accessibility standards. We provide basic access to facilities, products and services for persons with disabilities. We need to move without delay to a universal design approach to enable transformation of education, which enables independence and social participation for all.

Accessible assistive technology has been mentioned numerous times. It makes things possible for people with disabilities and represents an unprecedented opportunity to improve quality of life and enhance participation in education, for example, accessing education through e-learning materials adapted to the needs of students with cognitive disabilities, which remove barriers to learning. Text-to-speech devices allow persons with visual disabilities to use computers. GPS can increase accessibility in their physical environment to persons with disability.

It is important we address some of the assistive technology issues, such as the lack of accessible information for disabled persons about assistive technology that can be useful to them. The unaffordable cost of certain technologies must be addressed as well. It is also important to ensure accessibility of the environment, which is a precondition for using certain assistive technologies. For example, ramps and wide doorways can enable the effective use of a wheelchair.

We will continue with contributions from Deputies according to our rota, starting with Deputy Connolly.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I will expand on the issue of personal assistants again. Deputy Ó Murchú touched on it. Is it the decision of the ETB or school as to how many are employed?

Ms Catherine Fox:

The decision is made based on the funding we receive. Once we receive the funding from SOLAS and from the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, it comes down into our ETB. To be fair to them, they do a very good job and then they task me as a principal with doing equally good a job in employing them. It depends on funding.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Does SOLAS provide funding through each ETB for personal assistants?

Ms Catherine Fox:

They provide funding through the fund for students with disability.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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From the personal assistants' perspective, are they advised at the outset that the contract is on that basis?

Ms Catherine Fox:

Yes. They are recruited through normal recruitment channels by our ETB through HR recruitment and so on. They are advised of the terms and conditions of the contract.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Can anyone from the higher education sector tell us if it is the same method through which personal assistants are employed in that sector?

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

We do not have personal assistants in Trinity Centre for People with Intellectual Disabilities. Rather, we have two senior occupational therapists within the PATH 4 funding. Eleven higher education institutions are now part of that pilot funding phase. Not all of them have occupational therapists. Some are trying different types of approaches. We have new people coming in, in new roles in higher education for which we do not have the named roles. We need to do that.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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There is significant growth in the number of classes in mainstream primary schools for children with additional needs. Are we preparing for that in the third level or further education sector?

Ms Emer Cloak:

I think we are falling short. There are ASD units popping up all over the place at second level. We are seeing an increasing number of students applying to us to come with ASD. Our personal assistants are stretched to capacity and, again, they are difficult to retain.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to return to the conversation around the passport with Dr. McGuckin. We have touched on it a number of times. Has that made it into any of our strategy documents to date? Where have conversations taken place, if any? Where is this done well, in European terms?

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

I am not sure about European terms or policy but it is something that is certainly being discussed. I am involved with one of the national rare disease charities. We have had to struggle really hard to get a co-ordinated care clinic within Crumlin. We are now at risk of losing that. What we wanted to do then was embed education into that so we could have even that lower-level passport. We need to develop something like that. The issues for the child, family and supporters do not really change over the lifespan or through that period up to the age of 18. We need to do something urgently. It is something that can be achieved very quickly if we enact the assistive technology plan. The Government now has great support for disability. This is one thing.

Within education, we can only do what we can do. We are dealing with health as well. It would be very easy to pull those two things together and let things follow the child within health and education. I see colleagues nodding here. I think this is universal within the world we are in. It should be easy enough to enact. It does not have to be anything big or major. As I mentioned in the previous part of the session, the ETBI is probably camera-ready to roll out a pilot in this area through the community national schools into post-primary schools, colleges and the further education and training system. If we then have the tertiary strategy, it would pull it right through the whole of education, and the whole of your life within education, health and the community. Otherwise, we are not allowing people to be included, to participate or to belong because they are always being forced to jump over hurdles and to expose themselves and disclose. We can very easily enact it. It is not particularly written in any place as such as a policy imperative but it is something that is in the ether that we talk about. Why can we not do this? That is us in an echo chamber though. We need the support at this level to bring that together. We could very easily enact it as a working group, I imagine, as a trial under this new plan.

Dr. Vivian Rath:

Just one small clarification. Work did begin on a passport a number of years ago. I do not know where that is at the moment. I only know that because for a number of years I worked with the Association for Higher Education Access and Disability, AHEAD. Work had begun with the Departments in relation to a passport. I am not sure which Department or where it is at now.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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It will be a cross-departmental issue.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Dr. Rath had four asks. One of them was to invest in digital learning. What does that mean in practice?

Dr. Vivian Rath:

In terms of the wider practice, I mentioned that we need to take a strategic approach to that. As mentioned by Mr. Aston, in terms of investing, we need to look at supporting the students at all stages of the journey to develop a knowledge and understanding of the technology they can use and appreciate that.

In order to do that, staff working at all levels - I am not just talking about personal assistants - need to have access to training. Of course, it is very difficult in an environment that is changing so quickly. Assistive technology is developing every day. We see new updates in AI, etc. This is again why we come to saying there is a need for a plan and associated funding. It would look like training and supporting the student, understanding their needs and hearing their voice and training and supporting the staff who are working on it. It would be at all levels and not just the PAs. We are talking about teachers and the general body. As part of that, of course, there would be continuous professional development, CPD.

As I mentioned earlier as well, there is another phase. It involves looking at the wider assistive technology sector, and would include powered wheelchairs, hearing aids, etc. These are all also extremely important. We need to be looking again at the cross-departmental piece and how this works. It would be about the HSE being able to provide updated technology as soon as it becomes available and how this can be done. It would also be about making sure that it meets the needs of each person and that there is support for each individual. The WHO report lays out very clear guidance in terms of doing that. In that context, we need to look at implementing the report's recommendations, but also at having funding linked to that end as well. I hope that answers the question.

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

I do not think we can divorce that part of the debate from the wider societal and educational discourse around a ban on smartphones in schools. We need to encourage rather than run away from the technology. We need to take a look at the affordances of the technology. We are probably 15 years too late in trying to think about a ban. That was probably where we were in 2010 with the cyberbullying. Smartphones are incredible points of access, inclusion and accessible technology. We cannot divorce this from those wider conversations.

My litmus test for any of this is always whether all of us could have left our smartphones upstairs today and not looked at them. We probably could not, so why are we going to ask children to do that in school? Many children are in school today because they can text home and say they are there and safe and everything is okay. They are included and the anxiety is managed. I do not think we can divorce those perspectives. I think there should be wider access towards running in the direction of the technology, generative AI and these other things. These are the skills of the workplace and that is the future of today's generation. We need to understand that and get behind it. This is part of the assistive technology we are talking about today.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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In terms of the numbers, I am hearing that 30% of full-time students in Dunboyne College will declare they have an additional need. A new report coming out from the Minister will say 16% of entrants now will be those with disabilities. I think Dr. Rath mentioned a figure of around 8%. We are getting all these different percentages and figures for what is happening. A universal perspective would be useful. One person will talk about a person with additional needs, while someone else will talk about someone with a disability. A universal description needs to be looked at.

Even when we talk about the fund for students with disabilities, they have to be on an approved course to even get it. There seem to be all these barriers. Could this be an issue in respect of why people do not declare a disability? Is it because of all these different barriers?

Ms Catherine Fox:

I do not think it is an issue in respect of why people do not declare. I think there is perhaps a reluctance to do so in some cases. Learners may also be coming into us who have never been assessed and identified as needing additional support. They are then in a class of 19 students doing a professional qualification which leads to employment. We are offering post-leaving certificate courses. Our courses are designed to prepare students to enter the workplace, to work under supervision or to go on to higher education, instead of using their leaving certificate points. While I take the point made about the barriers to certain courses, we offer full-time full awards, with eight modules and a specific outcome. We work very closely with students to make sure that is the pathway that will allow them to achieve when they are with us.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry for interrupting, but would that be why the college has such a high percentage compared with the other percentages we are hearing about? Is it because it is open and accessible?

Ms Catherine Fox:

Yes, it is. It is part of it. Dunboyne College has that name for inclusiveness. Additionally, in terms of the statistics, we have the official statistics, in which people may have an up-to-date assessment. We then have students who will declare it. We are also counting the whole area of mental health and anxiety. When we say "additional needs", we are as broad as we can be. We would estimate that the figure is 25% to 30% among those who declare at the application stage. During the year, however, that could very easily go up to 45% to 50%.

One key thing to bear in mind is that this information only concerns those of us in further education in the post-leaving certificate sector. I am not talking about our colleagues in the vocational training opportunities scheme, VTOS, Youthreach, etc., who have a very different model of funding for learners with additional needs. They do not get that specific budget for learners with disabilities.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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To return to a previous theme on collaboration, there is a common thread here. Very clear pathways are being given as to the different pieces and in terms of co-ordination. There is infinite willpower and infinite ideas, but finite budgeting. Moving towards the space, given our hosting of so many technology corporations, of corporate social responsibility, CSR, and collaboration in that context, from an ethical perspective and that whole sphere, how might this be seen? There will not be enough time, but I will start with Dr. Marcus-Quinn and move along. How might she see that type of CSR collaboration being used to achieve the outcome of inclusivity and accessibility? How might this develop?

Dr. Ann Marcus-Quinn:

I will answer very quickly since there are other voices. I will give an example from personal experience. I was commissioned about three years ago to write a report for the European Disability Forum, EDF, which was sponsored by Google. That report was looking at how much or to what extent assistive technology was being used in the private sector for employees. It was so difficult to get that data, because companies are not obliged to engage in that kind of research. It took me about four months to get 20 companies of different sizes to match the criteria so I could write a fully informed report. Even semi-State companies were reluctant to engage with that research. If they were incentivised to engage with that kind of research, I think we would have more data that we could base these supports on.

Ms Catherine Fox:

In terms of Dunboyne College, all our students have a mandatory work placement as part of their course. They cannot graduate with a full award without that placement. We are very fortunate in the companies we work with. They very much have an open-door policy. In Dunboyne, we have the likes of MSD and the Marymount Care Centre close to us. Our employers are very supportive of our students. Once again, because of that smallness, our staff will liaise with the companies, advising them of the supports learners might need. Some tremendous work is also going on with EmployAbility Meath and other organisations in that area.

Ms Barbara Ringwood:

We have over 40 business partners in the corporate sector. We have developed wonderful collaboration partnerships with them. They offer work placements and internships for our students. They also offer workshops. Each May, both groups of students that we have go out to these companies. It is an opportunity for them to see what is possible in terms of work for the future, while our business partners get to share their knowledge, understanding and personal experiences of education and pathways into employment.

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

Co-creation and policy were asked about earlier. We can all quite often be very critical of policy, its clunkiness and not turning it into practice. We have significant experience now with the Department of further and higher education and the Higher Education Authority, HEA, around path 4. I have put it on the record that it is incredible in terms of the listening and the co-construction with the institutions, the HEA, the Department and the students in the middle of that process.

We had a community of practice in Cork last week. Students were there as full co-participants. What they had to share was probably more valuable than anyone else. We are incredibly thankful to the Department and HEA. They are definitely working in a spirit of collaboration with us and the community of practice. It is working both ways. It is a lovely model to take forward. We are highly appreciative of it, with where we are at the moment, and the ambition.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We will return to the end of my last question. I used the example of the parent who applied for assistive technology and was told their child would benefit from this but cannot get it. That sums up the issue with us taking assistive technology seriously.

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

It is that, but also where we meet clunkiness is that parents might say that if they cannot get it through the normal system, they will purchase an iPad and the technology, but that will not work because it is not on the school system and so on. It becomes frustrating. These are easy things to mitigate, rule out, and put in place in a lifelong, person-centred way. These are so easy for us to achieve. We are talking about it today. It would be nice to hear that a pilot has been started and to be able to see the benefits of this in the whole of education, health and life.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is beyond that, because the problem with this State is that we are very good at starting pilots, but even when we have success, they are not necessarily rolled out across the board. The accessibility and assistive system is one example, where we have seen benefits for children, helping them to communicate and giving them a voice where they have none, and we just do not make it readily available. It is straightforward universal design across the board. I get that there will be imperfections, but we cannot allow bureaucracy to get in the way.

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

The report we are all referencing today is 250 pages. It is accessible and well put together. It points out many things where, as a country, we are doing very well. There are opportunities and we have the centre for universal design. We have so much of a fair wind at our back with these. There is a lot of buy-in and support from across the education sector, not just the representatives who are here today. With the enactment of that and Government support, I think we would see significant developments in a short time. It is a wonderful report.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is seamless throughout the education process, right through to EmployAbility. When we talk about EmployAbility, the wage subsidy scheme, and so on, none are fit for purpose.

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

We have an example of our students being educated and work-ready. Ms Ringwood has mentioned her business partner network. We have internships and mentors. They lead to real, proper jobs. It goes way beyond corporate social responsibility, CSR, and equality, diversity and inclusion, EDI. These are real, proper jobs. We need a whole-of-government approach. We move from having a job to the student having a career, but then if students get a promotion, they might not want it, because they would lose medical cards and benefits, and there would be other issues. All the success we are getting nudges on the issue on. We were not here 20 or 30 years ago, but inclusion in education is working. They are coming through primary, post-primary, further and higher education, and they are rightly asking where their job, their career and the supports they need are, to pay their taxes and be members of society, the same as their brothers, sisters, parents, and everyone else. That is where we are now and we need to marry in those again. We talked about health and education, but we have welfare and everything else too.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is putting in needed supports in the easiest and cheapest way possible.

Gillian Toole (Meath East, Independent)
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Going back to assistive technology, if the corporate world were to be involved in some sort of partnership, given finite fiscal purses, should there be an ethical framework and how might that develop to have universality across access and software? I agree with Dr. McGuckin that technology has moved ahead of the possibility of a ban, and it should not be a barrier. It is an enabler. How do we do that safely? It goes back to the collaboration matter. There is an ethical part to it. I think it would be an enabler. How might we look at that as a country that is hosting the leading tech industries in the world?

Mr. Will Carty:

When we are talking about big tech and developing apps for assistive technology, we should be looking at them being multi-platform, across several devices and across any operating system. We are not tying users down to specific devices, which we do in this country, at times, in some of the schools and so on. The policy should be coming from the Government and educators. We work with big tech but we do not let it control it. We obviously have to work out data protection and so on, which we all follow here anyway. We follow the procurement rules. In further education, we are preparing our students for third level and for the workforce. Invariably, they will be using big tech companies' software and so on. We have to work with them. We just have to make sure we do it in an ethical way. We need to make sure that we get value for money and that the learner experience is what it should be.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
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I want to pick up on something that Ms Fox said earlier about the use of common assessments. That is really interesting in this space. There is a great opportunity with the fact that, because of AI, everyone is having to redesign assessments anyway. There is a great opportunity for the witnesses, some of whom are probably already doing it, to say to staff to take into account the needs of all their students and redesign their assessments. The same type of assessment can be given for ten years, but now they are having to be changed. There is an opportunity to design something that is fit for purpose for every student. I strongly encourage the witnesses to communicate that clearly to everybody in the education sphere.

Ms Catherine Fox:

All of our assessments are redesigned on an annual basis. The flexibility and fluidity of the further education sector is particularly unique. Our courses are one academic year long. The assessment techniques are constantly tweaked. Only this week, we had our results approval processes. We have been receiving feedback from our external authenticators on our assessment design. Our employers get involved in telling us what they want to see students being assessed on. We work with our partners in third level education, in particular colleagues in TUD and Maynooth University, to ensure that what we are doing will meet the needs of students as they go forward. Our staff constantly reinvent, redesign and look at the assessment design and needs, possibly a lot more than our colleagues in higher education who are in a three- or four-year programme pathway.

Dr. Vivian Rath:

We accept that AI is certainly having an impact. There is huge potential for inclusive spaces. It aligns with the principles of universal design and offers multiple means of learning and expression of knowledge, like using podcasts to express your view and to engage in exams. It is absolutely wonderful.

There have been academic challenges with regard to academic integrity. In some instances, there has been a knee-jerk reaction because of the fears. These fears and this knee-jerk reaction have the potential to, and already is, erasing the progress around inclusion in some cases. I will give an example. A response to AI has reversed the in-person availability of exams and assessments. This can be problematic for some disabled students such as those with short-term memory issues or with chronic illness. It puts them at a disadvantage. It also affects their engagement with, and their right to, reasonable accommodation. We need to have a real conversation about the need to provide reasonable accommodations to make our environments inclusive and to embrace this technology. We have a lot of work to do with that.

Ms Catherine Fox:

Today I would normally be at a meeting in Galway of the National Academic Integrity Network, NAIN, with colleagues from University of Limerick, UL, but obviously I am here. We are working as part of NAIN, which is under the control of Quality and Qualifications Ireland and colleagues from further and higher education, on the development of an open digital badge for staff on the development of assessments that are both inclusive and responsive to the development of AI.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I have just two quick questions. Is there any research on the dropout rates at second level or third level due to the lack of technological assistance? In terms of the exciting news of the fantastic new Wexford campus for the South East Technological University, SETU, have the witnesses suggestions to ensure inclusive services there?

Ms Catherine Fox:

I am sorry. We do not have any figures on the reasons for dropout. With each student who decides to leave us or has appeared to have withdrawn from us, we make every attempt to talk to that student and to have an engagement with our guidance services to see what are the reasons for dropout.

In terms of the proposals for Wexford, I wish them well. I look forward to having a look at what they have and seeing how we can implement it in Dunboyne when we have our campus.

Dr. Vivian Rath:

I am on the governing equality, diversity and inclusion board of SETU, so I have some knowledge. I am confident that SETU has a great team there in teaching, learning and accessible UDL provision. I am confident that they will work within that in terms of the UNCRPD and also in providing the most up-to-date assistive technology, AT.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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Well done. That is fine and I thank Dr. Rath for clarifying that. It would be useful, however, to find out if there is any research across the State, or even indication or an estimation on the dropouts that may be due to the lack of technological assistance. That would be one worth looking at.

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

That is probably a question the Association for Higher Education Access and Disability, AHEAD, would be able to embed into their research profile. By the very nature of dropout, as a colleague said, they have dropped out and we have no understanding why. We do not do exit interviews but we need to focus on retention and getting people in. Quite a lot of the focus is on access and widening participation through the national access plan. We need to see access as a whole-of-institution life event for the student so we need to mitigate against potential dropout. We need to focus on retention, which becomes about access, inclusion and belonging. The bedrock of a lot of that is the systems thinking and the attitude of universal design and UDL, which we come back to yet again here. It is writ large in this report.

We do not have the statistics the Deputy is talking about but we need to move more to the opposite end of that, which is to absolute core retention. If someone gets access, the reasons they probably drop out may have to do with housing, transport or contemporary issues. Quite a large number are because of lack of belonging, lack of sense of inclusion and lack of feeling that they matter. A lot of focus is on the entry and the access. Access needs to be extended to be access, inclusion, belonging, feeling that they matter and that there is a destination for them when them finish this. That is where we need it to be rather than the focus on points for access. We have the National Tertiary Office and we have the wonderful offerings with the new tertiary plan bringing those two sectors together so people can plan and think. If assistive technology is built into that from a very early stage, and if we have universal design and digital literacy within the Teaching Council and within the Céim process for initial teacher education, we can certainly do a lot and we will not be thinking about dropout rates.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. McGuckin and Deputy Ó Súilleabháin. We will move on to Deputy Ó Murchú for a brief comment and if anyone else wants to come, they can just indicate if they have not done so already, as we will be finishing up after this.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We are talking about an ecosystem that is almost cradle to grave. We talk about lifelong learning. It is about how we deliver it without just talking about whole-of-government approaches. It is how we actually see delivery on that. As I said earlier, it is about early childcare, right through school and then through to further and higher education, and over and back, rather than getting caught up in the bureaucracy of applying for supports. The supports are there, in general, but if bespoke supports are required then it should follow the child. How do we see that happening so we do not keep having this conversation? We talk about outlier actions that are taken by particular educational institutes but we have to get somewhere better. Can the witnesses answer that in a minute?

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

We go back to an assessment of need process. That should be happening at a very early stage. If issues are identified there for early intervention, by what used to be the school-age team, they are identified there and, by and large, for a lot of young people, the issues are going to be there permanently, and we need to embed it in-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Or with constant assessment with it always happening. If the assessment of needs is happening within all those settings, we can be very flexible.

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

They can be very easily amplified when the child moves into the school. Teachers can amplify that such a need is still there, rather than more paperwork or for a NEPS psychologist to see no different things, once it is there from early intervention or from the first point of diagnosis or engagement then it is there, and let us accept that it is there for lifelong until it is not needed-----

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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And the proper use of assistive technologies to back it up.

Dr. Conor McGuckin:

And follow through. They should not have to be looking to the fund for students with disabilities when they come to university. It should already be known and there should be no question that the student is going to get this access.

Ms Catherine Fox:

As I referred to, the fund for learners with disabilities is available to us in the post-leaving certifcate sector but it is not available as a specific fund in the other areas of the FET sector. They have to take it out of their standard budget. That continuity of support is one of the things that would need to be looked at it. The stigma of assessment and all of that is changing but it is not changing quick enough, and that is a societal issue. As we say in Dunboyne, "Begin here and go anywhere". We had students who began with us and who have gone to further and higher education and into employment.

Maurice Quinlivan (Limerick City, Sinn Fein)
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I thank everyone who contributed. This ends our discussion today. I thank the witnesses for coming in. The discussion and the evidence highlight the importance of accessibility and assistive technology to help prioritise the needs of disabled people and the need for the creation of design solutions that reduce barriers and help enable all participating members of society. The witnesses' contributions and opening statements are very useful for us. I thank them very much to everyone for attending the meeting.