Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 20 May 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Arts, Media, Communications, Culture and Sport
Engagement with RTÉ on Funding and Pensions
2:00 am
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Today's meeting has been convened for the committee's scrutiny of matters related to engagement with RTÉ on funding and pensions as well as on issues that have been highlighted in recent media coverage, in particular, matters relating to pay and transparency. I welcome the following witnesses to committee room 1. From RTÉ, I welcome Mr. Kevin Bakhurst, ard stiúrthóir, and Mr. Adrian Lynch, deputy director general. From the Department of Culture, Communications and Sport, I welcome Mr. Joe Healy, assistant secretary, corporate division; Ms Tríona Quill, assistant secretary, media and broadcasting division; Ms Michelle Ruddy, principal officer and head of HR; and Mr. Stephen Ryan, principal officer.
The format of the meeting is that I will invite the witnesses to deliver an opening statement, which is limited to five minutes. These statements will be followed by questions from members of the committee. As the witnesses will probably be aware, the committee may publish the opening statement and presentation on its webpage. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Before we move to today's discussion, I will clarify some limitations in relation to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Chair to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
Before I invite Mr. Bakhurst to deliver his opening statement, I have to point out that we only got this about an hour ago, which is totally unacceptable. Mr. Bakhurst might want to explain why that is.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Mr. Bakhurst had to update it on the basis of the meeting.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Okay. For us, even to read it-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is not the first time either, by the way, just so Mr. Bakhurst knows.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Okay. Mr. Bakhurst has five minutes.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators for the invitation to attend this afternoon. We welcome the discussion that lies ahead and see this as a valuable opportunity to generate clarity on a range of important issues. I would like, once again, to underscore RTÉ’s commitment to reform and to the restoration of trust.
As improved processes and more explicit parameters are applied to the preparation of the top ten highest earning presenter list as an element of the financial statements for 2025, the issue of the categorisation of Derek Mooney with regard to the compilation of the highest earners list arose. It was promptly explored further and notified to the audit and risk committee, to myself as the director general, and to the chair. Findings were verified and ultimately raised with the leadership team and the board for formal consideration. A decision was then made to include any relevant individual with a dual role in the list. The organisation moved with due pace to address the matter and confirmed that outcome with our Minister, the public and relevant stakeholders. In confirming his pay, with his permission, for the years 2020 to 2023, it is now absolutely clear where Derek would have sat in the top ten in those years.
The correct protocols and procedures were followed. The 2025 list, and the details which underpin how it was compiled, are testimony to the new standards in action. We are serious about making improvements and addressing issues as they arise. When looking at this issue, rigour and thoroughness was front and centre of our deliberations. As this outcome confirms, that may create challenges, especially in terms of surfacing legacy issues and practices. It is regrettable that a sincere attempt to be more open has come to be categorised by some as a scandal.
We acknowledge that the complexity of RTÉ’s historical approach to contracts and employment can often appear opaque and confusing. We find ourselves addressing decades of variable approaches and practices. Notwithstanding the complexity, I and RTÉ remain fiercely committed to the transparent reform of legacy matters in the interests of both RTÉ and its staff, and in the interest of best practice reporting too. Beyond that, I and the leadership team will continue to interrogate what we feel needs interrogation. We will correct what deserves correction.
We have learned the hard way as regards public trust. The gains that we have made in terms of the recovery of that trust are not something that we take for granted. We are aware that the committee members have more questions on the matter and we are happy to answer those questions.
We are also aware that this is not the only topic of interest to the committee. The matter of the administration costs of the superannuation scheme has now been decided on, but we are open to any other questions the committee may have as regards our overall pensions position.
On the matter of public funding, I welcome the committee's continued interest. How public service media is funded and sustained is not just an Irish question. It is being grappled with by peer organisations across Europe and the globe. Media organisations of all kinds and sizes are facing sustainability challenges. With the rise of misinformation and threats to democracy, public service media as a public good has never been more important. Public media is an essential service. Access to news, national culture, sport and content in the Irish language, and the broader provision of programming of public service value, form the bedrock of the promises made by RTÉ in relation to the funding agreement made in 2024.
I need to be clear on this. The multi-annual commitment to €725 million of secure funding across three years is not, as has been termed by some, a "bailout". Comprising of both licence fee and Exchequer funding, this funding is a critical financial support to a national public service. To describe this as a "bailout" is at best misleading. At worst, it suggests that the organisation is only worthy of support as a mitigation against financial crisis. For accuracy, of the €225 million of funds received in 2025, the additional Government funding represented 18%. We remain very grateful to all the households who support public service media through their licence fee.
That funding, along with commercial revenue generated by RTÉ, is what has enabled us to create memorable viewing and listening experiences in 2025, which included comprehensive news and current affairs coverage; award-winning investigative reporting; the generation of the majority of the most-watched television programmes in Ireland, including "The Traitors Ireland" and "The Late Late Toy Show"; a diverse portfolio of radio services in English and in Irish, which reach over 2 million listeners a week, including a refreshed line up for Radio 1; a rich selection of Irish and international content for on-demand viewing via RTÉ Player; an impressive array of free-to-air sporting moments featuring local and national teams; award-winning Irish documentaries; and free bilingual children's content, as well as over 10,000 hours of Irish language content across all services and 125 hours of Irish drama. Looking to the months ahead, audiences have got a lot to look forward to, including a brilliant summer of sport, great Irish documentaries and the celebration of the centenary of our public service media.
If all of us here today agree that public service media is of national importance, then like every other element of national infrastructure – be it water, transport or energy – public service media will require funding to sustain it. As highlighted in the reports of Coimisiún na Meán, public service media in Ireland has been underfunded for decades. The commitment to the first multi-annual agreement, as I said before, was a very welcome step in addressing that funding volatility. That is not to say that RTÉ is not in large part responsible for our own fiscal stability. That was one of the key objectives of the New Direction strategy - a pathway to retain the best and most wide-ranging audience experience, while reducing fixed costs that create financial vulnerability.
Commitment to programmes of public service character in all their hues is central to the decisions that we make. There is no diminution of commitment to public service; far from it. Engagement with RTÉ's trusted news services, sporting experiences, our factual coverage in current affairs and in documentaries, attendances at our orchestral performances, and our slate of Irish drama and other independent production programming remain incredibly high. A transition to the independent sector, for some of that programming, should not be characterised as a lack of conviction about its inclusion in our output, or that it is of lesser quality or value as a result of that change.
As Ireland prepares-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I ask Mr. Bakhurst to conclude.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I can leave the rest. I will just read the last paragraph.
The leadership team and all my colleagues at RTÉ remain focused on the delivery of RTÉ's public service remit and the continued reform and evolution of the organisation so that it is well placed to succeed over the decades ahead.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I thank Mr. Bakhurst. Before I invite Mr. Healy to speak, was there anything that the Minister requested Mr. Bakhurst share with this committee today that has not been shared with us or has been shared with us?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The Minister did not ask Mr. Bakhurst to share anything with us today then. It is just that, in Mr. Bakhurst's statement, I cannot see that there is much of a difference.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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There was not anything about tables of earnings or anything like that. Mr. Bakhurst was not asked to share that with the committee.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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But you were not asked to share it with the committee.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Was Mr. Bakhurst asked?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Is Mr. Bakhurst sure?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Okay.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I will now ask Mr. Healy to make his opening statement. I just needed to clarify that. I thank Mr. Bakhurst.
Ms Tríona Quill:
I will be delivering the statement, if that is okay. As the committee will be aware, in July 2024, Government agreed to a multi-annual funding framework for RTÉ, covering the years from 2025 to 2027. The arrangement was agreed to provide certainty of funding for RTÉ’s future and, in particular, to enable the implementation of the RTÉ statement of strategy, which had been approved by the board of RTÉ and published the previous month. The funding arrangement agreed by Government provided for an overall funding allocation of €225 million for 2025, €240 million for this year and €260 million for 2027. The Government agreed to the retention of the current TV licence system, the net proceeds of which continue to form part of the funding arrangement together with additional Exchequer allocations. Now in the second year of both the funding arrangement and the implementation of the strategy, RTÉ is continuing to deliver on its strategy priorities, which commit not only to reforms, but also to improving how it fulfils its public service obligations to the Irish public and how it addresses the challenges of major changes in the media landscape, evolving audience preferences and behaviours, and the expanding role and importance of public service media.
With regard to pension matters, the Department understands the key importance of pensions to the members of RTÉ’s pension schemes. The Department appreciates that pension scheme members need assurance that their pension schemes are healthy, robust and sustainable and that their own present and future financial security is safeguarded. With this in mind, the Department actively engages with RTÉ as sponsor employer of these pension schemes, as well as with the scheme trustees who are tasked with administering the schemes and the RTÉ Retired Staff Association, which represents the interests of retired members. In this context, it is important the relevant procedures are followed to ensure that sound and evidence-based decisions are made in respect of proposed pension increases and rule changes. Accordingly, the process has multiple stages, each allowing for careful consideration and analysis.
The day-to-day administration of the pension schemes is a matter for the trustees of the schemes. The Minister’s oversight of the RTÉ pension schemes is governed by section 91 of the Broadcasting Act 2009, which enables RTÉ to make a superannuation scheme or schemes, and to make amendments to a scheme or schemes, subject to the Minister’s approval and with the consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation. In accordance with the relevant scheme rules, the Minister may consider requests for pension increases, accompanied by actuarial reports. In line with section 19 of the National Treasury Management Agency (Amendment) Act 2014 and the code of practice for the governance of State bodies, the advice of NewERA is sought on any proposed pension increase. If, following consideration of that advice, the Minister decides to approve a pension increase, the consent of the Minister for public expenditure and reform is then required to give effect to that increase. We are happy to take any questions members may have.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Every speaker will have five minutes each and we hope to have a second round. There is full attendance so we will have to stick to time limits, which are to include answers. Everyone knows the drill. We have a non-member here. Any non-member should indicate to the secretariat if they want to ask questions. They will have two minutes at the end of the first round. I hope we will then have a second round.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. Unfortunately, I feel a sense of déjà vu. I was hugely concerned to hear Mr. Bakhurst's comment yesterday that this is the price of transparency. I really feel he has no idea how the public feels about what is happening in RTÉ. Yes, we are looking for transparency. This committee is looking for transparency. The Minister is looking for transparency. However, the licence fee payer and the people who are paying their taxes are the most important. This is taxpayers' money we are speaking about. What we are getting in return is a drip feed of one scandal after another. Unless this is urgently addressed, as sure as night follows day, we will be back here again in six months listening to the details of other scandals.
Bearing in mind that, in Mr. Bakhurst's own words, "critical financial support" of €750 million is being given to RTÉ, does he really feel that RTÉ is fit for purpose? That question needs to be asked. Does he have confidence that the structures are in place and these scandals are the final skeletons to come out? Based on public opinion, the opinion of members, what we have heard over the last two weeks and the commentary of everyone in this room that Mr. Bakhurst will hear later on, it seems those structures are not in place. I am asking this straight-up. Does Mr. Bakhurst think he is the right man to lead RTÉ forward? That question needs to be asked. He will be three years in the job this July.
I hear members of the board continuing to refer to historical issues. Liverpool is not having a great year in the football but I have never once heard Arne Slot, its current manager, blaming the previous management. When you go in, you try to get your structures in place straight away so that your house will be in order. You have to take responsibility for what is going on. I feel that is not the case. This goes back to the very first thing I mentioned, the price of transparency. Transparency is the least the people of Ireland request for the financial commitment we have given to RTÉ but we are not getting it. I will let Mr. Bakhurst respond to that.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Yes, I will be three years in the job in July. As the Deputy knows, the first year and a half was spent dealing with an absolute crisis. RTÉ is a very complicated organisation. We have a new leadership team and a robust board and chair who are absolutely trying to drive transparency. We have made significant changes to what we report in the annual report and how we report it. The level of disclosure is much more transparent than it has ever been. As the Deputy knows, when you look at particular areas of a big organisation, things can arise. As I said to the committee last time, as things arise, we will surface them, look into the details of them and put them into the public domain. We have driven a huge amount of transparency in the organisation. We continue to try to do that.
When I said that this was the price of transparency this time around, I was talking about the whole issue around Derek Mooney's pay. That issue came up because we had put new and even more rigorous processes in place in respect of the top ten. That issue was identified by our finance team. They looked into it for less than three weeks and we took legal advice. We had a decision to make. We could have lived with the status quo, which was based on how Mr. Mooney's role had been characterised historically, or we could choose to be more transparent and put his salary into the top ten because, although he does a mixture of work-----
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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With respect, my question was not about Derek Mooney. My question was whether Mr. Bakhurst feels he is the right man to lead RTÉ forward. Does he feel the structures are in place to stop this drip-drip of skeleton after skeleton coming out of the closet?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I ask Mr. Bakhurst to answer that briefly.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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You are three years in the job.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I call Deputy Joanna Byrne.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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For the Irish public who are watching, this is like Groundhog Day. It is not three years since the last financial scandal that rocked RTÉ and here we are again, with RTÉ embroiled in more controversy. It absolutely beggars belief. Questions must be asked about the classification of Mr. Mooney's role. Was that a misclassification or miscategorisation in the first place or was it a deliberate attempt to hide? Is there a culture among the top-brass executives in RTÉ of thinking that the rules do not apply and that commitments given to members here and to the Irish public around improved governance and oversight do not apply? Is RTÉ continuing to play fast and loose with the public purse while not reporting accurately on the big salaries of its high-flyers? Mr. Bakhurst has to accept that is the perception among the Irish public.
I have a couple of questions I would like brief answers to.
Mr. Bakhurst referenced in the media yesterday that they took the view that he should be classified as a producer and not a presenter. I want to know who "they" are and who made that decision. Crucially, was this agreement categorised as one role and then with a sweetheart top-up deal on top of that? Was that negotiated by an agent, and if so, can Mr. Bakhurst name who the agent was?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I ask Mr. Bakhurst to be brief please as I have more questions.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I will try to be brief. I think in 2020 he would have been back in the top 20. From what we have seen, a decision was taken by the chief financial officer, CFO, and the director general when they looked at whether he should be in the top 20 and whether he was a presenter or a producer, when they looked at his contract, which is a radio producer contract, and when they looked at the balance of his work, which was more producing than presenting. We took a different view, which was that he is well known as a presenter and that he should be in the top 20-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Just so that the record is clear, initially this was a decision of the CFO and the director general to categorise Mr. Mooney as a producer.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Who gave the instruction?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No. My issue is not in regard to Mr. Mooney.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What I am trying to get to here is not directed at Mr. Mooney. It is directed at the governance of RTÉ under Mr. Bakhurst's stewardship, particularly in the last couple of years. Is it working? Is it working as effectively as it could be and should be? Was there a role for the agent in this because-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Does he have an agent now?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
No, he is on staff. As far as I am aware, we have never dealt with an agent. I do not think he has one but we have never dealt with one.
All I can say is I know people have always been saying it is historical but in 2020, when we came across his classification, we took legal advice that it was up to us how we classified it. We decided to classify him as a presenter because we wanted to be more transparent. We feel he should be in the top ten because he does a significant enough amount of presenting as part of his overall package. This is absolutely about driving transparency. Given the legal advice, we could have taken either decision-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is great to virtue signal this-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is around transparency and RTÉ being transparent but obviously RTÉ is not being transparent because it took a number of years for this to be disclosed, first of all, and unearthed.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is Mr. Bakhurst 100% confident that there is nobody else with the same misclassification at this moment?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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This will be my last question as I am out of time on this round. In relation to public confidence and public trust, Mr. Bakhurst referenced in his opening statement that RTÉ had "learned the hard way as regards public trust. The gains that we have made in terms of the recovery of that trust are not something that we take for granted." I feel that Mr. Bakhurst has done huge damage to that public trust in the way this has been handled and obviously in the controversy that has been around it in recent days. From the committee's perspective, the multi-annual funding is up next year. How would committee members have confidence to recommend to the Minister that this funding be continued any longer?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
First, the committee can see how we are managing the organisation, how we are managing the finances, what we are delivering for audiences, the changes we are making and the transparency we are driving. That is why I said yesterday that I was disappointed, because this was our decision, and we decided to make a decision rapidly and transparently.
In the past, the top ten salaries were published two to three years after the period they were addressing. Since I started, and under the leadership team, they are now in the annual report. They are audited and they are published in real time. In fact, this one has been published ahead of the annual report. There is an extreme change in the transparency.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I will start in response to, or building on, what the Chair mentioned about additional information. The Minister quoted to the press that the information that RTÉ shared with him, which he had asked for last week, should be shared with the committee the following day, and that RTÉ will be doing that.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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So that has been provided?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I do not want to waste any more of my time on this, thank you.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Thank you. I want to get into a couple of specific issues and the first one that I wanted to talk-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I will give the Deputy back her time. Will the witnesses get somebody sitting behind them to send that to us now?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I think that is a good idea. I give the Deputy back her time.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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No problem. I thank the Chair for that. I thank all the witnesses for being here today. It is a real shame that we are back here talking about controversies and lists and top earners when there is so much we have to talk about around the public service mandate. I was frustrated even in the last conversation because it was so focused on redundancies and governance issues. I do, however, have a governance issue that I want to start with before I get to public service broadcasting. It relates to RTÉ's CFOs. Is it the case that there have been five chief financial officers in RTÉ over the last six years?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Okay, so that is only three. That was misinformation on my part.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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The CFO who RTÉ has at the moment is the one I want to focus in on. Is it that case that RTÉ has a KPMG consulting CFO?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I remember in the last session that I asked RTÉ about succession planning. The BBC job was up at the time and there were questions around Mr. Bakhurst's own role. He said there was plenty of succession planning for director general. I am curious as to why RTÉ has to outsource the role of CFO when surely there should be enough talent within the organisation to temporarily fill that role.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Is none of those people able to step up as an interim CFO while RTÉ replaces somebody permanently? Does RTÉ have to outsource?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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And-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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The outsourcing is actually what I want to get into. How was KPMG chosen as the consulting firm that RTÉ wanted to outsource to?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Do the witnesses think there is any potential conflict given that the current chair of RTÉ was a partner in KPMG?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Is it cost effective?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I have an issue that this far on from the governance debacle that plagued the organisation a few years ago, RTÉ does not yet have enough competence and capacity in its finance department to install somebody in an interim role as CFO while RTÉ was appointing the role. I think that is problematic.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I also think there are issues around cost and governance that RTÉ is outsourcing to a firm that has a connection to the chair of the organisation.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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No, I do not have 60 seconds because I have another issue that I want to get to.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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No. Thank you.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I want to talk about outsourcing. I have raised this before. I have huge concerns at the level of outsourcing RTÉ is choosing to engage in. I believe there is institutional loss. I have yet to see a really comprehensive analysis of the cost of losing that institutional knowledge and outsourcing these programmes to elsewhere and to the commercial sector. Specifically, I want to ask about "Up for the Match" because I want to understand where the cost gain is there. What are we losing? Has RTÉ quantified what we are losing in outsourcing that?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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When Mr. Bakhurst was here the last time, he said to me that RTÉ was outsourcing pretty much everything except news and current affairs and sport. Is "Up for the Match" sport?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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So when Mr. Bakhurst says news and current affairs and sport, he does not mean all of sport.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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It is not considered sports.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I would really encourage and invite better analysis of what is being lost by all of this outsourcing. I believe the public service mandate is under threat.
In my last 30 seconds I have one other question. I sent Mr. Bakhurst an email in February and sent follow up emails since then but still have not received a reply. Many other committee members commended Mr. Bakhurst on making the brave decision of not showing "Eurovision". I have requested multiple times that RTÉ please refrains from broadcasting the Israel-Ireland fixture because it is sportswashing and I have not had a response. I expect a response and if Mr. Bakhurst would like to provide one now I would be very grateful.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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The other obligations RTÉ had with "Eurovision", it was able to get out of.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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But this is also your decision. Contracts can be broken. Contracts can be bought out. You can do this. I would welcome a one-to-one discussion with Mr. Bakhurst on it.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Answer my email, then.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Just before we call on the next speaker, we still have not received the papers. I want to receive them.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Yes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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When are we going to receive it? I want to print it out and give it to the committee members.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses are all very welcome. I thank them for coming today. Unfortunately, this is not another scandal. It appears to be the culture that is happening in RTÉ. If I look back over the past number of years, between Toy Show The Musical, barter accounts, hidden payments, failed IT systems, flip-flops and employment issues, this is an ongoing shambles; a never-ending circus of secrecy and spin. I will keep this very simple. I have two areas I want to focus on. The first relates to the recent revelations of the payments to Derek Mooney. I have three very quick questions. Why did it take three years for someone in finance to uncover this discrepancy? How did it escape Mr. Bakhurst's attention? When he came to RTÉ, did he not ask for a list of presenters and their pay?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Based on income, the highest-paid producer in RTÉ gets paid €90,000 per annum, give or take.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Mooney was on €200,000, yet he is presenting for one hour per week. I am trying to square the maths on that. If somebody is on the highest point of the scale as a producer and is getting €90,000 plus, does that mean Mr. Mooney was getting €110,000 a year to present a show for maybe an hour a week to listen to a few birds singing? Welcome and important and all as that is, is that really good value for money?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How many hours does he work every year?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst think it is good value for money to have €110,000-----
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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He is the one RTÉ brought into the public domain last week itself. It was RTÉ who brought Derek's name into it. Does Mr. Bakhurst think it is good value for money, if the top wage on the producer side is €90,000, that €110,000 be paid to a presenter to produce the shows Mr. Mooney is presenting?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We are always looking to get better value for money from everyone in the organisation. Derek is on staff and his salary was given to him years ago. His role has changed substantially, as the Deputy remembers. Twenty or 30 years ago, Derek was on a lot of TV programmes. He had a daily programme on radio. That is when his staff salary-----
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are there many other side deals in RTÉ, like the Derek Mooney side deal?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It seems very sketchy.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am not talking about Derek. I am talking about the accounts in RTÉ. In any other industry, a failure to transparently disclose financial arrangements would be described as "creative accounting", or as we call it back home where I am from, "cooking the books".
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
I will clarify one thing around Derek Mooney's contract that is important. I have looked through the contract history because one of the questions that came up was that if the producer scale is here, why is he paid so much? In 2007, he was given a personal contract. That was the key point at which he diverged from that producer scale.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I have to move on because I have only a minute and a half left and have one other section to get to really quickly. On the top ten paid presenters, RTÉ has provided the list for the past four years. Some are employees and some are contractors and that is fine. For those who are contractors, they are getting paid that figure to present. Am I correct in saying that?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Are there any other payments going to the entities of those companies?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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For example, if we look at Brendan O'Connor and BOC Communications Limited, he was paid €239,000 as a contractor. Are there any other services BOC Communications Limited are getting paid for by RTÉ?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Right, okay.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The only payment any of those companies get is to present and for no other additional services.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I will move on to the transparency side of things and where we find ourselves today. I am very conscious of time and know we are coming up to it. Public trust has been eroded significantly here. What will Mr. Bakhurst do to restore public trust given the tsunami of incidents that have happened during the past three years?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I hope the audience can see it. We know. We measure public trust and it has been increasing significantly over the past 12 months. These sort of things do not help but we have to take the decision, when we identify something, whether we hide it away and not say anything about it or come out, explain it, try to face the consequences and hope it is received in a fair way. In any organisation, and in RTÉ as well, there are going to be things from time to time that come to our attention. I cannot be aware of every single thing in the organisation. I was asked before and the Minister asked me yesterday, are there any more landmines and I said-----
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst have a regular schedule to meet the Minister?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Sorry, we need to conclude.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When was the last time Mr. Bakhurst met the Minister?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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When was the last time he met the Minister, before yesterday?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Deputy Carrigy is next.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Will Mr. Bakhurst forward that detail onto the committee?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I requested a briefing from RTÉ yesterday - the one Ms Hurley gave to the audit and risk committee, ARC, and the board. I made contact with the office but I did not receive it. Is it a case that this briefing could be forwarded to committee members?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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The report that was given to the ARC and the board.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Can I get a copy of that briefing?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I know it is not standard practice but what is happening at the minute is not standard business either for an organisation. We as members of this committee should be entitled to see what there is.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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To help the Deputy, the committee will write to the chair and ask for that.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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If it could be forwarded. I thank the Chair. Do either of the witnesses-----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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She wrote a briefing report. She sent it to the committee. It is the same thing.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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That is using words to try to get away without having to send it.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It would have been helpful for me for this meeting today if we had that, but it will be sent on following this meeting.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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All right. I thank Mr. Bakhurst. Do either of the witnesses know of any similar arrangement with any other presenter who is currently on air, be it on radio or television, who is receiving an additional income for programmes from a company that produces programming for RTÉ that RTÉ makes payments for?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Who?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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He is made a payment so he earns as a presenter-----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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What is the breakdown of those payments?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
It is clearly broken out and costed per hour in terms of his delivery of that service as a presenter. Also, "Callan's Kicks", as you can imagine, has been going for quite some time so that is a product. In that case, Oliver is employing writers, producers and sound people. There is a whole crew that goes into it to actually make the product that is delivered to RTÉ. It is important also, if the Deputy does not mind me saying, that in terms of the preparation of the top ten, note four is clear about the exclusions. One of the exclusions is work for independent production companies.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It is not an independent if he owns the company himself.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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That he owns and produces, but that income he has earned is not added to his income he earns with RTÉ.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It is all money he was paid by RTÉ, so he will be taking a salary from that company as well. Should that salary be included with his earnings from RTÉ in order to give the total that he earns?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Going forward, it has to become the practice. If anyone has an independent company, his or her earnings from it should be put there. If the person is taking a wage out of that company-----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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What is the ballpark figure for what he earns from that on top of is wage?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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He is one of RTÉ's top earners. The witnesses should know.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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He would be in the top ten if RTÉ put the two together. That is what I am trying to get at.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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We have met Mr. Lynch on numerous occasions over the years. The agreement with Derek Mooney dates back a long number of years. If we were to do a data trawl of the company's records, including emails, memos or whatever, can Mr. Lynch give guarantee that we would not find any document which would show that he had any involvement in putting that together or any knowledge of it since the contract was agreed with Mr. D'Arcy in 2014? It has been stated that this only came up in the past three weeks. I find it baffling that nobody at a senior level in the organisation would have known of this issue at all until the new CFO, Ms Hurley, came in and did her trawl. Can Mr. Lynch give a guarantee in respect of this matter. He stated that nobody knew a thing about it. If we were to look for data access, would it be the case that we would not find a memo, an email or anything else which indicated that he did have knowledge of it? Who in the organisation actually put that contract together in 2014?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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There is no email or memo about it or reference to it.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do not know where to start or finish. It was mentioned that Derek Mooney had a personal contract and that he was also on the staff. Is the personal contract with a company?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We have a quite a number of people on staff who have personal contracts. What normally happens is that there is a particular reason why they are given one, namely if they have reached a salary cap. We do not do it anymore really, but in the past, if they reached the salary cap, they might be offered a job somewhere else and we would want to keep them so they needed to get a personal contract to pay them enough so we could keep them or whatever.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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So it was a way of bypassing the cap.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am not talking about Derek Mooney or anybody else, but was this a way of getting around the salary cap and, as Mr. Bakhurst said, of holding on to personnel?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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So all the personal contracts are included in the assessment of-----
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does that mean that people who have been there the same length of time and who have the same titles could be earning different salaries?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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My next question is about pensions. That is what we were originally supposed to be dealing with. It relates more to the Department. Last week, we dealt with An Post and its pension scheme. We asked what role the Minister has in the context of oversight. It would probably be more appropriate for the officials from the Department to outline the role the Minister has regarding oversight of the pension schemes within RTÉ. There are several of them. Is the Minister the final arbiter in terms of requests, for example, for increases in payments from the pension scheme? He recently refused a request from one of the pension schemes in RTÉ to outsource responsibility for the administration costs to an outside company.
Mr. Joe Healy:
There are three RTÉ pension schemes. In the context of the defined contribution scheme, the Minister does not have a role in terms of the approval of pension increases. For the 50-50 scheme and the RTÉ Retired Staff Association scheme, the trustees will propose increases. That proposal will then come to the Department. We will work on it and will advise the Minister, and he will either approve that or not. It goes to the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation for final approval and then goes back to the trustees.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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In some ways, the Minister has the final say on and control of the pension scheme and oversight of it on an annual basis, while RTÉ deals with investing, holding and managing the assets.
Mr. Joe Healy:
The trustees are responsible for the management of the pension fund, the assets that are associated with the fund and the decisions that are made in respect of it. If there is a request for an increase and-or a change in regulation, that will come to the Minister. Ultimately, it will go to the Minister for Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation for final arbitration and approval.
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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In the context of the issue we dealt with last week, it is strange that the Minister would control that aspect of a commercial semi-State body. That is why we were looking at it last week. We will probably come back to it.
One of the pension schemes - or maybe all of them - is down as an asset for RTÉ. It turns up in the books, but RTÉ cannot spend or use it. It is the trustees-----
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Is that normal practice?
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I found that slightly odd. Obviously, all of the schemes are in surplus and doing well. Is there a challenge for RTÉ if, as is intended, it reduces the number of staff in the future, which will mean that there will be a reduced input into the pension funds? Will there be a challenge in the context of any of the three pension funds?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
No. There are two that could potentially be affected. On the defined benefit scheme, which is the old one, only about a dozen people still working for the organisation contribute to that because it was closed a number of years ago. In any event, that will be winding up in terms of employees in the next few years. That scheme has a surplus of around €200 million, so it is extremely well-funded by the standard-----
Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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How many pensioners are benefiting from that at the moment?
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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Going back to the list of the top ten presenters, how is George Lee included on that? Is he is the environment editor, is he a political correspondent or is he classed as a presenter? How much presenting does he do outside of news segments?
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I understand that Derek Mooney had a production team on "Mooney Goes Wild", which included the former head of RTÉ Radio 1, Ana Leddy. She was series producer up to her retirement. Why was Mr. Mooney being paid so much while his production team were actually producing the show?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
He was part of the production team. He is an executive producer. I spoke to him the other day. He would estimate that around three quarters of his work is production and executive producing and that 25% at the moment is presenting. He does a balance of work, but a lot of it is production.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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Is all of that in-house?
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I have one more question that I asked on the previous occasion. This is National Biodiversity Week. I know that a lot of work has been outsourced, but I mentioned the possibility of RTÉ establishing a climate environment unit and referred to George Lee and Derek Mooney in that regard. We are at a time when we need accurate and science-led reporting on these issues. Would RTÉ give consideration to putting in place a dedicated team to co-ordinate a much more unified approach to reporting on climate, nature and the environment?
RTÉ does really good work on this across all platforms, but perhaps what I suggest should be considered.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We can consider it. As the Senator said, it is important that we have people like George Lee and Derek Mooney who understand their subject areas. Derek Mooney, when he was made an executive producer, was put in charge of nature and wildlife programmes. Therefore, it is part of the remit. We can look into it, but the most important thing is that we reflect climate change in our programming commissions and across our news and current affairs coverage, which involves a big remit.
Malcolm Noonan (Green Party)
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I thank Mr. Bakhurst.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Before I call Senator Mullen, it should be noted that the document in relation to what the Minister requested has arrived and has been emailed to everyone.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I welcome all the witnesses. I was astounded to hear what Mr. Bakhurst said, which is that it remains the case that, through a combination of a personal salary and a payment to a company, a person might avoid being mentioned in the top ten earners. I thought we had moved beyond all that. If I understand what he said correctly, Mr. Bakhurst stated that it is still possible that a person can be put on a personal contract, thereby enabling him or her to exceed the cap. It sounds like we are still down on Animal Farm, that some animals are still more equal than others and that the public is still in the dark.
I introduced legislation in 2023 which would have provided that nobody, whether through external contracts or otherwise, would exceed the salary of the Minister for communications, which was then about €195,000. It would also have provided that all salaries in excess of the equivalent of that of a TD would be published. That would get rid of the ducks and drakes being played with the public through the cosmetic exercise of the top ten being published. It is a case of Lanigan's Ball, with one stepping in and the other stepping out again, but the public is still being fooled. Maybe they are not being fooled deliberately, but it speaks to a complete lack of transparency, a word that Mr. Bakhurst has mentioned several times.
The specific question I want to raise with Mr. Bakhurst is as follows. Of the €725 million that RTÉ has received to run operations over the current three-year period, how much has been earmarked for on-air programming that specifically investigates, challenges and interrogates RTÉ's editorial policy in the interest of openness and transparency in fulfilling its public remit? I want Mr. Bakhurst to give me a short answer.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I am talking specifically about challenging, investigating and interrogating RTÉ's editorial policy as a matter of good practice. I think the answer is "None".
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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The reason I am asking-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Understood. This is an issue of culture. At the back of all this is the failure to self-reflect. It is not just the case in Ireland. In Mr. Bakhurst's country, Mr. Rob Burley was a senior BBC editor for 13 years. After leaving, he exposed the capture of the organisation by various agendas, including progressive agendas, and referred to bullying around editorial policies and so on. On a previous occasion, I asked Mr. Bakhurst whether he was open to carrying out an audit of his organisation to determine whether there is sufficient diversity of viewpoints to enable the diversity of views among the public on a range of issues to be served. Mr. Bakhurst dismissed the comment at the time as sounding like it came from North Korea. He missed the point, because in North Korea what is enforced is conformity. What I am trying to do is find out how interested Mr. Bakhurst is in genuine diversity.
Even a generation ago, we had “Mailbag”, a programme on which Arthur Murphy – I do not know if Mr. Bakhurst knows about him – would read out letters. Sometimes it might have made a bit of fun of the viewers or writers-in, but at least it was some effort at self-reflection or being open to criticism. I might differ from or agree with people on a range of issues. In this regard, you could talk about free speech, trans-related debates and immigration, in respect of which many people feel there is a sameness of viewpoint within RTÉ that is affecting the diversity of opinions that are allowed to be expressed. I will give one example. On two separate occasions in recent months, on the thorny issue of surrogacy, David McCullagh, who, according to everything I have ever heard, is a very good historian, did interviews with people who only represented one point of view, namely that of those seeking to implement certain legal changes. It focused on personal points of view on one side. There was not a single representation of ethical concerns around international surrogacy, the commercialisation of children and so on. Whether Mr. Bakhurst agrees with me on the issue, it is shocking that it occurred not once but twice. On this matter, I consulted AI, which, for all its faults, sometimes gives you a line on things. What it had to say about David McCullagh, for whom I have great respect in many ways, is that he is a prominent RTÉ broadcaster and that his coverage of surrogacy primarily acts as a platform for families and advocates urging the Government to finalise legislation. Even AI was able to describe him as an advocate. This shows that there is a neutrality problem in RTÉ.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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That is possibly the case, but it is interesting. What I want to ask Mr. Bakhurst is the following whether-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Very briefly.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Is Mr. Bakhurst willing to commit to considering whether it is necessary to make sure that there is sufficient diversity in RTÉ's coverage of issues? If he is not willing to commit to it, why?
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Mr. Bakhurst has until the second round of questions, because my question is an obvious one to ask him. People expect the level of interest in diversity to which I have referred.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise. I had to run out to the Chamber to deal with a question. Let me go back to 2023, which we all thought was the line in the sand. I am not trying to overhype the topic we are talking about, but we did believe that and that we were entering a new era of transparency. Could Mr. Bakhurst talk us through the reason for the three-year gap? I assume that in 2023, when everybody and their aunts and uncles were mentioned as getting cars, side deals and so on, there was an review of all contracts. If the matter was flagged at that point in time, why was the review not carried out then rather than waiting another three years?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
As I said earlier, it was not flagged at that point. There was a very real focus on the top ten at that time. The auditors who had come in to look at the top ten, in particular, were asked to provide verification. The issue in 2023 was that the top ten was not correct and that there were hidden payments. That is not the issue this time. It is about the categorisation of an individual.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I genuinely get that. I am not trying to hype it.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
It is a very different matter from the one in 2023. There have been no secret payments. I want to make that crystal clear. Mr. Mooney has done nothing wrong in this at all. There have been no secret payments. In our view, Mr. Mooney was mischaracterised. We took legal advice, which, actually-----
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not being rude but, to be fair, I said in my question that I am not trying to overhype this. I am just trying to understand why something like this was not flagged in 2023 if an in-depth review, going through the closet entirely, was carried out at that point in time. Why was this not rectified then?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I do not know why this was not done earlier. To be fair, Mari Hurley and her team found it in the last three weeks. Ms Hurley was in the organisation for two years going through everything root and branch, as we know, and it was not discovered until three weeks ago. It was not through a lack of robust looking through the organisation and turning over stones.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Could we get the exact date that Mr. Bakhurst and Mr. Lynch-----
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know it was asked about earlier, but I must ask again whether we are sure this is the last issue in respect of contractual incentives or otherwise that we will be addressing.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
As I said previously, I absolutely hope so. There is nothing we know about that is untoward. Even the issue in question was one of categorisation, not an issue of a hidden payment to Mr. Mooney. I do not want to give a guarantee that there is nothing we will discover. If I do, it means that if we discover something, there will be no incentive for me to put it in the public domain, which I want to do. What I said to the Minister yesterday, which I think he was pleased about, was that if there is anything else, we will put it into the public domain as soon as possible. However, I do not know of anything else.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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To be fair, Mr. Bakhurst made the comments on transparency yesterday. His comments are much maligned in some quarters but, at the same time, I appreciate him making them. We are going to have to hold him to it now.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Going forward, it is a fairly high bar to set given the historic and cultural nature of some of the contractual arrangements, as Senator Mullen has said. Can I ask about the Claire Byrne and Ray D'Arcy payments?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Again, this was reported in the media. A total combined payment of €97,000, covering a period of two months, was made to the presenters' companies at a time when neither of them performed any broadcasting duties. Could Mr. Bakhurst explain that?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Ms Byrne resigned. She gave six months' notice that she was going to go to Newstalk. She had six months left on her contract. We wanted to use her on air for a period, but we also wanted to introduce a new schedule with David McCullagh before she went to Newstalk, which we did.
We made the decision to take her off air. She had a legally binding contract and there were contractual obligations, so we needed to pay her until the end of her contract.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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And the Ray D'Arcy one as well.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. Yesterday evening, the Minister said he would like the publication of a 100 list. Will Mr. Bakhurst give his honest comments on that? Is it something he is in favour of?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I am in favour of it. We discussed it previously when Siún Ní Raghallaigh was chair. She said we would look at it and we did. I said this to the Minister yesterday. When we looked at this previously – because I wanted to do it – there were immediately issues beyond the top 20 of individuals who have their own GDPR rights about their salary not being released into the public domain. Some people who have argued for more transparency do not want their own salary put out there. What I said to the Minister yesterday was that I am very much in favour of doing it but we might need legislative change to underpin it because there is an issue with GDPR an the data commissioner.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to ask about transparency. That has been a key word attributed to Mr. Bakhurst this week. In the interest of transparency, would he be willing to surrender to the committee all communications between himself and the Minister over the last 12 or 18 months, perhaps, on these types of issues?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am including WhatsApp messages, emails and all that type of stuff.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is something Mr. Bakhurst is willing to do.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would rather if Mr. Bakhurst was just willing to do it. I thank the Chair.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Well, anything in relation to the topics we are discussing-----
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Particularly around contracts and workforce issues, I would say.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Senator Comyn.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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If we are not going to get a full list immediately of everyone on over €100,000, could we get all presenters? It is a little unfair just to target this top ten who are all in the presenter’s category. Can we get all presenters over €100,000?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
The same issue applies. We have been in favour of putting out those salaries but the basis on which we put out the top ten is one of this committee's predecessors asked us to do that a long time ago and on foot of that we published a top ten. We have volunteered to put out the salaries of the leadership team and all the members of the leadership team have agreed to that.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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We will definitely work on that because I think it is very unfair. I will be mentioning people’s names because they are put in to the top ten-----
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Okay, we will work on that. RTÉ is a public service broadcaster and is publicly funded. Over the years I have worked as a journalist, a reporter, a news anchor, presenter, talent and correspondent - all of the above. I would love to know RTÉ’s categories – what difference there is between those roles in RTÉ. Who decides what category someone falls into and what they get paid?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Normally the jobs are advertised. They would be advertised as a reporter job, a correspondent job or a presenter job and you are categorised as such if you apply for it and get that role. Some people will apply for it and be on a producer contract. They might be doing presenting for a period. As part of the remuneration for that they might get a standard reporter or correspondent payment and they may get an extra presenter allowance.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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That is a special deal – a presenter allowance.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Special deals were questioned and then-----
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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What we have seen is that the words “personal contract” are really another name for special deal. How many people are on special contracts or personal contracts?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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When we are looking at transparency, I want to try to find the path to where one gets to. There is a huge disparity between what ordinary journalists and reporters are earning in the newsroom. The top tier here are all news and current affairs whereas in many of the organisations I have worked in it is light entertainment people who are earning the big bucks. There was a multi-media journalist, MMJ, role advertised for around €40,000. I think the top of the scale is €70,000. The top pay for a correspondent in the news department is €94,000. The top pay for an editor is around €100,000. However, we have George Lee – he is mentioned and I have to target – who is on close to €200,000. I would like to be able to see his clear path to where he gets that because last year, I believe, he was given another €10,000 on top of his existing salary. Did every correspondent get that?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Yes, George Lee only got the standard staff increase that all members of staff got and he has done over a number of years. When I was head of news and current affairs he was already on a very substantial personal salary, I guess, and he has been in the top ten. He is a member of staff so he gets the staff increase, as do all members of staff.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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What I am asking is can we please see everybody’s path to the level they are on? We are seeing the top earners here. If the top pay for a correspondent is €94,000 and for editors is €100,000, what is he doing? I am looking at value for money here for the taxpayer. What is he doing over and above anyone else who is on that pay or much lower pay?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
On a point of clarification, those are George Lee’s earnings that are published, which would include his pension. I think I need to clarify that for Derek Mooney as well. There is a base salary there and then there is a pension on top. We operate a scale system in RTÉ so, for example, if you are a producer-director for a time there is a top of the scale there. You get to €98,000. Then if you work as an executive producer for a number of years you get an additional allowance of €9,000 on top of that which might bring you to €107,000 and then you would also get a pension on top of that. We have to compare like with like. It is important in terms of Mr. Lee and Mr. Mooney to state that.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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We need much more transparency while we are at it and to find out the differentiations between these particular roles because I think there is a lot of fudging going on here. I know people who are presenting their own shows and may have had to produce their own programmes - there is a dual role – without getting a dual wage. Someone may be looking at top earners getting increments who may have been stuck on a very low pay grade for the last ten or 20 years. These are real cases that are coming to each and every one of us.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I agree. Part of what we are doing with the famous Willis Towers Watson career framework is to give more transparency across the organisation of where people sit compared with other members of staff so they can judge them. One of the other commitments we gave to the unions last year was that every time we advertise a job we will advertise the pay band for that job so there is much more increased transparency. People know what people are being paid for specific jobs.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Senator Ní Chuilinn.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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I do feel, though, there is a lot of everything going forward and we really need to see all the skeletons in the closet which are still coming out.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Senator Ní Chuilinn.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. I have questions for pretty much everybody so hopefully we will get through them.
Mr. Bakhurst said yesterday that he paid a price for transparency. I was really disappointed to hear that because I feel like what is actually happening is he is getting away with a two-tier system. He talked about reclassifying somebody like Derek Mooney – and I do not really want to talk about Derek Mooney, a top ten or a top 100 because I think it is a red herring. He was able to reclassify Derek Mooney as an organisation when it suited to keep him out of the top ten but there are hundreds of people working in RTÉ who asked to be reclassified and were told that was not an option for them. I refer to people who are presenting programmes – I am impressed with Senator Comyn’s due diligence in relation to people who are on certain contracts who may be presenting and may be reporting. Some things Mr. Bakhurst has said in the past while include that Derek Mooney was doing a significant amount of presenting and that was why he was on the top ten list even though he was technically a correspondent. Mr. Bakhurst was also saying that presenters earn more than reporters. There are people presenting programmes for the organisation – high profile programmes – who do not have presenter contracts. These people do not have contracts that say “presenter” and have asked for years to be reclassified and were told they could not do that. I presented for Mr. Bakhurst’s organisation for more than ten years. I worked there for more than 20 years but I presented for ten years. I asked repeatedly and I never got a presenter contract. I was never paid or contracted as a presenter and I should have been because, as Mr. Bakhurst said, “Presenters earn more than reporters”. No, they do not – not when they are on the MMJ scale. The top of it is €69,000, rather than €70,000 as Senator Comyn said. I feel like it is Mr. Bakhurst who is getting away with a two-tier system and that he is not actually being punished for the transparency.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I know but the organisation reclassified him in the first place when it would not reclassify ordinary workers.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
That is what I am saying. We have driven more transparency and decided to do it. When we say that we are driving more transparency, putting this in the public domain and explaining why we do it, the Senator can see the noise that is around it. We are not changing anything about Derek apart from saying that we want-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I do not want to talk about Derek. There is noise around Derek because he is a top earner.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I am talking about the earners below this list, below €100,000,-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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-----earners on €70,000 who are presenting the World Cup or "The Today Show" and they are on researcher contracts.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I can send Mr. Bakhurst the details.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I feel like Mr. Bakhurst is judging individual presenters now who are on the wrong contracts,-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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-----including me. Historically, I was on the wrong contract. I was good money. I was worth the money I was paid. RTÉ got good value out of people like me. I do not want to name others but there are people who did not-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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It is not even about payments. It is about pensions as well. The example of Seán Rocks was tragic. I spoke to his widow about that. His pension is really poorly affected because he was getting an allowance for presenting, which other people also were. That affects their pensions in the long term. Seán Rocks is one example but there are probably hundreds of examples.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
There are. I have spoken to Seán's widow as well. I have a lot of sympathy and I wanted to see if there was something we could do but, as the Senator rightly says, there are many people across RTÉ who have a core job and a presenter allowance. They work on that basis. That is their contract.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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If the presenter allowance is €10,000, which it was in my case, it is taxed at 50% but is not pensionable, and RTÉ is still-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I know, but people are also told that they are better off doing that than going to the WRC and getting letters from Arthur Cox LLP.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
The Senator knows that I am trying to drive as much fairness and transparency as I can, but it is a process. It takes a long time and there are a lot of individual deals. Quite often, people come to me directly. Sometimes, they have a case and we do look at it. There are groups of people, like at RnaG, that we looked who absolutely had a case about what they were paid. For the majority of the time, I have senior, well-paid people coming to me asking for yet more money and I have to say "No" more often than "Yes".
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I understand that but I would urge Mr. Bakhurst to engage with the people who are on the wrong contracts. They may or not be getting a supplementary allowance, whether it is €10,000 or €30,000, but it is the wrong model and not fair. I no longer work in RTÉ. I had a very happy career and I loved the work. That is why I stayed. I was not paid as a presenter but I loved the work. I was treated very poorly by the head of sport and the head of content in HR. I went to Mr. Bakhurst as well before I left. I just feel that there is a chance for him to do the right thing for the people who are still presenting programmes and who are being paid as MMJs and researchers.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I do, but I think there is a two-tier system at play and I would urge Mr. Bakhurst to engage with those people.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst believe in the principle of similar pay for similar operational roles?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that Mr. Bakhurst has only been in the role for three years but I have looked and this was about the time when taxpayers made a significant investment. On the basis of the data provide here, we know that since Mr. Bakhurst came into office, from 2023 to date, the total number of staff earning more than €100,000 has increased by 86. From 2024 to 2025, there were 53 additional people, with the total going from 315 to 368. We are seeing a lot more people being paid in excess of €100,000 at a time when we are talking about trying to ensure value for money comes from RTÉ.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I can answer that because I looked into those numbers when I got them. The vast majority of those are people who have moved. To be clear, these are earnings, not salary. That includes pension contributions as well. A lot of those people are actually paid a salary of less than €100,000.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Are those figures, therefore, a reclassification? To go to Mr. Lynch's point earlier, in terms of what we are now seeing, is it the total sum?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It is earnings, plus pension, plus if there is a car-----
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Earnings include pensions, allowances and everything. That is the total amount the person is paid by RTÉ, including pension contributions. I looked at that because I noticed that increase myself. Of the 368 people who have earnings of over €100,000, the salaries of 199 are less than €100,000, the but figure includes their pensions as well. We have looked into it. The other thing I would say is that an awful lot of the people who have moved to over €100,000 have moved just over €100,000 because they have had the RTÉ pay increases year on year.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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It is the same classification-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that, but it is still a payment out that has to be made. Just so we are absolutely clear, any publication of figures now includes salary, pension payment and if there is an allowance for a car or something.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Do many people in RTÉ at present have cars as part of their-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Or have vehicles provided for them?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, but there are no presenters or anyone else.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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This goes back to a question earlier, for instance, about Oliver Callan and his position, where he receives money. This is part of our difficulty in terms of what we are looking at. Oliver Callan is paid, directly from RTÉ, €150,000 per year and we know his company, Catchy Title Limited, booked profits of €1.9 million last year. There were payments recorded to the directors last year of €52,000. If we take that he is the sole director of the company and leaving aside the tangible assets, if we are talking about a salary of €150,000 to Oliver Callan, plus his production company for "Callan's Kicks" gets €52,000, is it not fair to say that Oliver Callan is on a salary of €202,000?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that but it goes back to the question about Derek Mooney being classified as a presenter or not. Most people who listen to RTÉ and hear Oliver Callan may not distinguish between an independent production company and RTÉ.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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They would listen to his morning programme and, for me, that means he is on over €200,000. How many other of the prominent presenters are in a similar position, whereby in addition to what they are being paid in salary, they also have a private company providing services to RTÉ?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, but Mr. Lynch is saying that he is an exception. I know Mr. Bakhurst went through the top 30 with the Minister. In that top 30, is there anybody else who is in a similar situation, in that they are drawing a salary and getting payments through an independent production company?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, but Mr. Lynch said that RTÉ went to the Minister, because I was careful and I wrote it down, with the top 30. Mr. Lynch should surely know of the top 30 people within an organisation.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We did. To be precise, Oliver is probably the only one who has a sizeable company like that. Then there are other individuals who might do the odd documentary or factual series, who get a sum for that as an independent production, but it is much lower level. It is a few thousand euro.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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This is part of the crucial question about how it is being dealt with. I know they are not but these are all being viewed as side deals that those on lower salaries in RTÉ are not getting. I asked about people getting similar payments for similar roles. People are looking and they are perceiving this as being a side deal.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I understand that, which is why I said to the Minister yesterday that we would go away and look at this. As the committee knows, there is no broadcaster in Europe, including the BBC or RTÉ, that actually reports what people are paid for independent productions. That has been a bit of a bone of contention in other places, including the UK.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have a few questions myself. This is mess. I get the comments in relation to transparency but the salaries, the mechanisms and the transparency around all of this are a mess.
Obviously, many of these are legacy issues, but it is time now to just deal with them.
We have this report, which says how many people are earning over €100,000. Deputy Malcolm Byrne has shown this number has increased dramatically in recent years. Will the witnesses provide a report on the number of people who are earning over €40,000, over €60,000, over €80,000, over €100,000 - going up in bands of €20,000 - and all the way up to Mr. Bakhurst?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Well, the witness can supply that to us now.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The whole issue of presenters being paid through outside companies or having their own outside companies does not create transparency. That is the real issue this committee is getting at. The witnesses can cite commercial sensitivity and all the usual stuff, which I understand, but the committee wants to know the totality of presenters who have outside companies and what those companies are being paid per year. In other words, if a presenter is a director of an outside company, tot that onto their salaries, be they contracted or staff. Separately, if they do not own that other company but are contracted by it, what is the amount they are paid on top of what they are paid by RTÉ? With that picture, we can then get the totality of who is being paid what.
Ultimately, RTÉ is paying it all anyway. It will either be paying the company directly or it will be paying another company that is paying the presenter. By the way, this might not just be presenters. There could be other people doing other work separately. There could very well be a scenario where somebody working in RTÉ is earning more than Mr. Bakhurst.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Is that not true?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I suspect there are. Would Mr. Bakhurst agree?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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It is unfortunate that Derek Mooney's name has been mentioned in all this, and I say that straight and directly as Chair. I think we all feel that. He has nothing to answer for whatsoever. There was a misclassification, and we know all of that.
However, the issue is that I have never in my career received more correspondence than I have in the past four days. It has been coming from people working in RTÉ at every level. I have not the bandwidth to read it all - that would just be impossible - and committee members here are the same; we have all got it. These have been retired people, people who left because they had issues and felt they were not treated well, members of the public, and people who have a knowledge of the media. The amount of correspondence has been huge.
One thing I know for certain is that morale is on the floor, and whatever the witnesses say to me, I am convinced of this. The level of it is huge. There is going to have to be some process put in place to deal with the whole issue of parity and fairness when it comes to pay and pensions for people whom I see as presenters or reporters and people who are producing who are presenters or vice versa. All of that is a mess and has to be dealt with. Some scheme will have to be brought in to do it.
I have to mention Seán Rocks. I spoke to his partner, Catherine Bailey. I am sorry, but it is an horrendous situation. He paid for his loyalty and love of his work. He was categorised wrongly for 16 years. They are going to have to leave their house on 13 July. That situation should never have been allowed to happen. As an organisation, RTÉ has a duty of care there. I am saying that quite directly. I have spoken to people who worked with him and to his friends. Many people are not happy. It is almost going to be symbolic. It will not be Derek Mooney who will be the symbol, because Seán Rock's treatment is symbolic of where this organisation needs to move away from and change.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Can I say one thing to that, please? I have also spoken to Catherine Bailey and we have exchanged correspondence, as well as with other people working with her. We have huge sympathy for Seán; he was a hugely loved person. When she came to me, I said I would look at it. The issue I tried to explain earlier was that there were literally dozens, if not hundreds, of people in RTÉ who had core salaries and allowances, and we have-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I understand the issue, but it does not make it right. RTÉ is going to have to correct it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I accept that.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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He was working for five days a week. It was a huge amount of work.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I understand that, but-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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-----RTÉ has an issue and it is going to have to deal with, and I am going to fight to make sure it is dealt with for everyone, particularly with the symbolic situation.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Sorry. Let me finish. I have one last question. If somebody at the top was about to leave the organisation - it does not matter who, and I do not like getting into individual names - would RTÉ consider telling that person that they cannot earn more than the director general, which I agree with, but that it would consider doing what is the case for many production companies outside, in that the person could do other events or gigs to supplement their salary of whatever it was, say, €200,000 or €250,000? Has that ever been considered in the past or would RTÉ consider doing that in the future to keep somebody?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Basically, if somebody was leaving who was "a talent" - I am talking about the future now - and they were being paid close to Mr. Bakhurst's salary because they were very high value, would RTÉ consider, in order to keep them, allowing them to be paid the salary or contracted salary and offer them some other way - we now know about various people who have production companies - or facilitate them through other production companies to get other payments? Has it ever considered doing that in the past?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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The question is very simple. Would RTÉ look at paying staff in a separate way on top of their salaries?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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RTÉ has not done that in the past.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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How many people did RTÉ send to Prague for the Ireland-----
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst consider that a lot of people to send?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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How many did RTÉ send to Budapest?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Absolutely, but just in comparison, it was a one-off game in one European city.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Yes, it was a one-off game, but there was huge public interest, as the Senator knows, and it drew massive audiences.
The one thing I will say about Prague is we decided to present and there was massive public interest. There was a record audience on television and the RTÉ Player for the game. The whole nation was discussing it. It was exactly the kind of public service thing we should be doing in bringing the country together.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I will just finish this point, because it is very important. Of the 41 people who went, 21 were for radio coverage. Alongside our public service commitment, the amount of commercial revenue that was driven by those radio programmes in terms of extra advertising and sponsorship more than paid for all of those people to go. In fact, we made a profit on it for those 21 people.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst have the costings on that?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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How much was it, roughly?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
As regards those 21 people and the commercial deals done around radio, we made a profit on sending those radio teams. It is commercial revenue we would not have got if we had not presented those programmes. It was a public service thing, but it also did not cost any taxpayer money.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Bakhurst must have a rough idea of how much it cost.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Hang on. A total of 41 people went to Prague. I presume they flew from Dublin to Prague.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I tried to get a flight from Dublin to Prague, and it was not anything less than €600. Multiplying €600 by 41 brings you to €20,000 even before you deal with accommodation.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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There was some very good work done, particularly by Samantha Libreri, who wrote an amazing article looking at the future of Irish football and the supporters, called "Children of Prague". Mr. Bakhurst said all of that work cost €20,000.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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There is no way 41 people got over there for €20,000.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Obviously, I was asking about 41.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Sorry, those are the costings I have today. The TV costings have not gone through yet. I got as much information as I could today about it. All I will say is that on the radio side alone, that game drove so much commercial revenue that it more than paid for the people we sent. We actually made a profit on sending those teams over there.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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I do not dispute that but it is an awful lot of people to send. Of those 41 people, does this figure include "The 2 Johnnies? Were they paid an appearance fee when they were on RTÉ while they were out in Czechia?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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It does not include?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Was anyone paid an appearance fee while they were out there?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Did the 41 people who travelled include any board members?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Did any of the board travel?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Okay. Mr. Bakhurst does not know how many people travelled to Budapest.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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In relation to the controversy, does Mr. Bakhurst think this will have an impact on the licence fee?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst think it will have an impact on people paying the licence fee? Does he think it will increase or decrease?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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The number of people who are paying the licence fee.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Having this continuing issue in terms of costs with RTÉ.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Look, there is no doubt that these kinds of things impact. When there is a row, it impacts negatively. In terms of the licence fees, this is one of the reasons I was frustrated, as I said, when we were trying to do the right thing and be more transparent by putting this information out, and then there were comments around it which I felt were unfair. We were trying to clean things up. When we discovered this, we put it into the public domain, and I felt some of the commentary around it was unfair and there was a price for it.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst feel that people will now question whether they should be paying the licence fee?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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From a financial perspective, does he expect a drop in the licence fee revenue temporarily because of this?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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So Mr. Bakhurst does not see any impact on it from this?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Can he see people's frustration? The question I asked Mr. Bakhurst last time, and I would be interested in hearing him answer it again, was does he accept that there is very low morale in the workforce in RTÉ?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I accept there is low morale in parts of RTÉ but not in all of it. We are working very hard on making it a better place to work. We are trying to organise events and make RTÉ a better, more interesting and fun place to work again for people. This is an important part of what we are doing.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Shane Ross wrote a book. I know he was on "Prime Time" last night, but as far as I am aware, he has not been on any of the other shows. Most former Cabinet Ministers who have written books have been invited on, whether with Claire Byrne, David McCullagh or whoever. Is there a reason for that? Is that an editorial decision?
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Is it because of the week it is that he was not invited on?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Deputy Cahill is very welcome to the committee and has three minutes.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat a Chathaoirligh. I welcome our guests. I previously called on RTÉ to liaise with the Government to push for a dedicated Irish sports channel to cater for all our sports. We have a sporting mad population. This is particularly the case with our older people who may not have access to streaming channels or a way to get through paywalls to watch their favourite sports. To be honest about it, many of them cannot afford it.
I have submitted parliamentary questions in the Dáil regarding this issue and so on. From the answers I have received, it appears to me that it has not even really been considered. I believe there is a large audience out there for a dedicated Irish sports channel. I am my party’s spokesperson for older people and I am worried they are being given a raw deal. They are not fluent in the use of modern technology such as streaming and paywalls, to be honest about it. I believe our national television broadcaster should be in a position to broadcast for all age groups, young and old, and we should be doing everything possible to protect and develop our culture and heritage. Obviously, this includes Gaelic football, hurling, handball, etc. We love to watch horse racing, basketball, soccer, etc.
I believe the audience is there but it is not being catered for on a go-to Irish TV sports channel. We are a nation of sports fanatics. This has just been spoken about. We love to follow our Irish heroes in whatever code. The recent advent of streaming means that not everybody can access and watch even our own Gaelic games, and that is sad. I believe there is a duty on the Government-----
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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If the Deputy wants an answer, he has 30 seconds remaining.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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-----and RTÉ to correct that anomaly.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We are probably spending more on sports rights as an organisation than we ever had done before, particularly focused on Irish teams and GAA. We try to make those available as widely as possible. Most of the sports programming runs on RTÉ2 or on the news channel, but it is mainly on RTÉ2. We are very mindful of the value of live sport in bringing the country together cross-generationally, bringing together older generations and younger generations who do not come to RTÉ that much, but who do come for big GAA and rugby games and international football and so on. We do spend a lot on sport. We are very mindful of that. I am not sure that a sports channel itself would be good value for money but I think the important thing is that we share the sports rights we get as widely as possible and that we invest as much as we can afford in that.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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Can I come in?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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No. I am sorry. We have to be very strict today because we have a full house, and I was generous. I call Deputy Brennan.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I wish to ask about the situation in relation to Ryan Tubridy and Noel Kelly and the request for documents in this regard. What is the updated situation, please?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
The updated position is that we have given them thousands of documents and they have appealed, I think, to the Data Commissioner because they think there are more documents that we should release. We took legal advice and had assistance from Arthur Cox, and we feel we have given them everything relevant. As I understand it, it is with the Data Commissioner now.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Why would RTÉ withhold documents after two years?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is RTÉ paying lawyers on this?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Could Mr. Bakhurst tell me roughly how much it has cost to withhold these documents?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Based on reports from The Irish Times, it cost €100,000 a year ago. I am surprised that Mr. Bakhurst did not know that.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is what I am saying.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Is there any reason why RTÉ would be hiding the documents?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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If RTÉ is not hiding them, then why will it not release them?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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They are relating to the two individuals asking for them, though.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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In the meantime, this bill is building up for the taxpayer again. It was €100,000 a year ago, and more than likely it will be-----
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Bakhurst does not know what they are looking for.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is very hard to accept, to tell you the truth.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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If RTÉ is not worried and does not know what they want to find, then why does it not just hand over the documents?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Again, I am concerned about the waste, the €100,000 and more than likely well above that figure. The taxpayer is going to be funding the legal bill on this matter.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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In relation to getting value for money, there is 2FM. We have 33 independent radio stations in Ireland and they get approximately €3 million. There is South East Radio down in Wexford and East Coast FM in Wicklow. On average, they get €100,000, while 2FM is getting in excess of €4 million.
Does Mr. Bakhurst think that is a level playing field?
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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No doubt local radio stations have costs on the premises as well.
Brian Brennan (Wicklow-Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Does Mr. Bakhurst think it is a level playing field if local radio stations are only getting €100,000?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Coming back to the World Cup play-off in Czechia, has RTÉ agreed to provide the full costs on the 41 staff members to the committee?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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A breakdown of whether they were production staff or engineers would be very useful.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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On that, can Mr. Bakhurst disclose what accounts were used to pay for the finance of that? We are not going to see another-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----barter account debacle or anything like that.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I know the TV licence has been mentioned earlier, so I will not hold on it too long. Inevitably, RTÉ will probably see a dip in people paying their TV licence fees as they did in the last financial controversy and everything that happened around that. Is RTÉ working to put a contingency plan in place as to how it might finance the deficiency in funds that may have been projected?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Due to the multi-annual funding, there will not be a deficiency for us because the Government has given a guaranteed level of funding for each year. The guaranteed level of funding for this year is €240 million. That is whatever there is from the licence fee, which is around €180-something million, and then direct Exchequer funding for the gap. So far this year, I think they have-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Irish people are still going to pick up the tab for it, effectively. That is what Mr. Bakhurst is saying.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am glad Mr. Bakhurst has acknowledged that.
I have some questions for the Department to make sure they are all still awake. There is nothing like an RTÉ scandal to take the focus off the Government. In regard to the Department's and the Minister's own role in this, are more learnings coming out of this hearing today for more robust protocols that may be in place in regard to the guarantee of the continuation of public funds to RTÉ?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Surely that needs to be strengthened now. If something like this has slipped through the gaps for a number of years and the whole top list of earners has had errors on many occasions over recent years, surely there have to be some learnings that we can take from this to strengthen that governance and oversight.
Ms Tríona Quill:
We are always thinking about whether there are other things we need to do. The reality is that the governance framework is not just about the Department oversight. There are auditors in RTÉ and internal controls procedures. There has been a strengthening of the risk framework in RTÉ. There is a board oversight and the Department as well. In governance, you will never get a 100% guarantee that nothing can slip through. We are not auditors; we do not look at individual detail because we are a small team, relatively speaking, but we always seek to look at whether there is something else that we need to do.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Minister requested anything additional in light of his meeting with RTÉ yesterday?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I want to pick up on a couple of things that we were talking about earlier, specifically on the KPMG engagement. Has it, or does it continue to provide advice on employment issues such as bogus self-employment and some of the pension concerns that have been raised?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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It is not.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Could Mr. Lynch do that? What I would like to see is a costing on that and perhaps a governance analysis because I have concerns that KPMG is advising RTÉ on HR issues and finance issues. It was previously an auditor of the organisation. Its former managing partner is chair of the organisation, and they are now in an interim CFO role.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I would like to get that analysis. I think Mr. Lynch has answered and I would like to see that analysis.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I appreciate that.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I also want to ask about another organisation that RTÉ has engaged with, which is the Willis Towers Watson grade review. Is there a cost for that?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Will Mr. Bakhurst tell me about the status of its implementation?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Does that look at things like the allowances?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
What it does is it tries to give information as to where people sit in the organisation in terms of the job families and the state of the salaries available and where there can be movement around the organisation. It brings more clarity. It also brings us into line with the European legislation that is coming along the tracks.
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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That is fine. It is more about the public sector employment practices. I have led a public sector organisation, and I am quite surprised at the amount of details that keep coming about the exceptions and the different cases that RTÉ has within the organisation. Witnesses from RTÉ have mentioned transparency, but it seems to be such a drip-feed that I think they can understand why we are frustrated as a committee and why morale is so low. If people do not have fair and consistent terms and conditions within their employment, that is where issues arise.
I will ask about RTÉ's relationship with the trade unions at the moment. How does Mr. Bakhurst think that is?
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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Are they happy with how things are?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I think they are happy generally. I think there are some issues and some disagreements about the strategies. The Deputy talked about that herself. We have an open relationship with them. I meet them regularly and whenever I am asked to do it. Our HR team has a constant dialogue with the trade unions. The Deputy asked about disparities in grades and things like that. The trade unions are very actively involved in discussing with managers in individual areas about new roles, the payment of pensions and so on-----
Sinéad Gibney (Dublin Rathdown, Social Democrats)
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I urge Mr. Bakhurst to listen to them. The trade unions, particularly within the public sector are the organisation that helps with that grading, transparency and consistency and prevents the unfairness that we are seeing emerge and the issues around things like allowances that then lead to pension disputes as well.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
The trade unions are involved. We were talking to them about allowances. I said I wanted to reduce the number of allowances in the organisation. We have done that, but there is a lot more to go. That will have to be in consultation with the trade unions because it is part of people's packages.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I raise the recent document that was sent out half an hour ago. Is Mr. Bakhurst's salary €250,000?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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If I look at the employee payroll, there are 11 employees in the 2025 figures and two contractors. There are 13 people who are earning over €260,000 in RTÉ at the moment, which is above Mr. Bakhurst's base package.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Earlier on in the first round, I asked a question in terms of presenters who had companies with them and whether any additional payments were made to those presenters. Mr. Bakhurst said that there was not. The following time, Deputy Carrigy comes up and all of a sudden we realise that Oliver Callan gets paid as a presenter and his company gets paid on the production side of things. It was literally the next question. I will keep going. If I look at somebody like Tommy Tiernan, for example, who presents a show that has a similar viewership to "The Late Late Show", is he paid as an employee of RTÉ or is he paid as a contractor?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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He would never appear in any list like this.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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How much would that production cost?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Hundreds of thousands.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Millions and millions.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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The point I am trying to make is with Tommy Tiernan's show as an example. He gets paid for the production as opposed to as a presenter. Even though he is presenting a programme on RTÉ, he is never going to appear on a list.
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
I will make one clarification that will help the overall conversation. The three buckets are those who are paid directly by RTÉ and then there are limited companies that provide services to RTÉ. Those limited companies could be engaged by another independent company to do a one-off documentary or something like that. As we were discussing earlier, there are then companies such as Oliver Callan's.
There would be two clear contracts there, one for presenter services, and the invoices would absolutely reflect that, and then-----
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Can Mr. Lynch understand why I earlier said that this was creative accounting, cooking the books or burning the books, in a way?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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It is very creative. I have 20 seconds left, and I have one last question.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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No, because the Chair is going to kill me. My last question is this. Does an RTÉ contestant on “Dancing with the Stars” get a payment as well as their salary?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I was not asking about Marty, but in general.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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You have Marty on the brain.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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He did not deserve to be paid, given the quality of his dancing. I am asking in general terms.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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There are other people employed by RTÉ who are also presenters. Carl Mullan won the show. My question is this. If you are an employee or a contractor of RTÉ, is there an additional payment if you take part in a show like “Dancing with the Stars”, for example? Roughly, how much would that be?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I will go back to Oliver Callan. How many other sources of income does he get? He produces Christmas specials as well. Is that separate from his payment?
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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That is three income streams.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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But only one is listed in the top ten.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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He is paid by two other companies, one of which is his own company and the other is an independent company that he does work for. He has three income streams, ultimately earned from product that is on RTÉ. We need to get to a situation where we can see any income of anyone who is a presenter on a show and employed by the organisation. If they are earning moneys from any other independent company, that figure needs to be put in with their total earnings. All of those programmes, ultimately, are on RTÉ and paid for by RTÉ.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It is a pity that we have to pull this information from that side of the table over to here. This should be put up-----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I will just ask the question. I do not mean to cut across Mr. Bakhurst. I asked him before about the document that was given to the ARC. Was there anything in that document to identify why we have situations like this, and why people were being named as a presenter and a producer? Was there anything in that document that-----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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No, it is the document I asked for earlier, that was given by the former CFO to the board. Was there anything in that from the CFO detailing-----
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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A verbal report.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Lynch seems very clear on certain answers and on some information in recent times, but he has absolutely no knowledge of all this happening back through the years, and he is the one person who was in the organisation when this happened. He knew absolutely nothing about it all.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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I personally find that very hard to believe.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I will say one thing that I mentioned before, and I will try to be brief. The way the organisation worked, decisions were taken by a small number of people. They were not brought to the whole executive. They were not brought to the board. This has been the root of many of the problems. Some of these decisions would have been taken between two or three people without it coming to the executive, of which Mr. Lynch was a member. That is what we have changed absolutely. Everything comes to the leadership team. Everything goes to the board.
Micheál Carrigy (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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One positive decision was the appointment of Sinéad Hussey as the midlands correspondent. I compliment RTÉ on that. At the time, we were left without a correspondent.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I want to follow on from that. We were chatting here among ourselves. Mr. Bakhurst is maintaining that nobody will receive a base salary that is more than his, which we all agree is right. To be clear for the public at home - I hate personalising it, genuinely, as I said earlier - you can be a presenter, a producer and a company owner, or be part of a company, and you can have three, four, five or six different productions. Cumulatively, let us be honest about it, some of the big names are potentially earning multiples of what the director general is earning.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Potentially.
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
To be clear, when we publish our annual report this year, it will very clearly call out that independent companies are excluded. As Deputy Malcolm Byrne, the former chair of SPI, would know, every year we publish an IP report that tabulates exactly what has been spent, the companies and the sums of money. It is all sitting there, and we publish it every year. It is on our website. It is important to say that.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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To go forward, from the Department's point of view, this needs to be rationalised in some way. If I am a director of a company apart from my political job, I have to declare it. Whether we like it or not, RTÉ is heavily - you do not like the word “bailout” or “subsidise”, but it is the recipient of large sums of public money. Surely, there is a better way of rationalising this to make it more transparent. That is a point more than a question.
I have to ask a question about football. I was in Prague for the Ireland match, so I will disclose that. There were 40 or 41 journalists there, so I was lucky, because it was very hard to get a ticket.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, but how many people were at the Ireland match last week when they played Grenada in Murcia?
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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My understanding is that there were none, but written publications did send journalists. That is fine. I understand the fanfare of Prague. It was a big match, and the country was on a high. RTÉ says it turned a profit, and that is fine. I get all that. As a football fan, however, I feel reporters should be there, and RTÉ should be there through the good times and bad, for the big matches and the small ones. The manager of the Irish team last week at that friendly could have said something very important about himself or the organisation, but there was nobody there from RTÉ to report it.
Pádraig O'Sullivan (Cork North-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Bakhurst referred to the importance of live sport bringing the nation together. I think RTÉ dropped the ball on that one. It might appear something small, but if it is there for the big ones, it needs to be there for the small ones too.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I take Mr. Bakhurst's point. I acknowledge that he took the right step in bringing to public attention the discrepancy around salary presentation. I get what he is saying in relation to the response to that. What all of this here today brings out is that there is considerable potential excess, both in salaries and in a continued lack of transparency. We are dealing with a leaky sieve here insofar as we have this idea of publishing the top ten, and then we go all at it. It is clear that is not giving anybody an accurate presentation of the reality of how people are remunerated, because of the position of independent contracts.
Really and truly, it is up to us, as legislators, to get that right. That is why I brought forward legislation in the past. It is our duty to make sure that the public know exactly what people are being paid. Whatever about having a cap on the amount that people can be paid, through whatever means, we need disclosure. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. It really comes back to us. It does not interfere with the independence of the broadcaster for people to know exactly how much people are getting remunerated for work that is, ultimately, paid out of the public purse.
What Mr. Bakhurst does with his funding is just as important as how he divvies it out among his people. That is why I am saying that I think people will form a particular view if Mr. Bakhurst is reluctant to commit to considering an audit of editorial policy. This issue of impartiality and balance is a live issue for many people across a range of issues.
First of all, will Mr. Bakhurst commit to looking at that issue very specifically today and to come back to us? Second, are there internal protocols for ensuring balance and does RTÉ review that situation in a structured way? If there are such internal protocols that have to be followed - I am not just talking about a rule book that is somewhere but protocols for implementing this and reviewing it on an ongoing basis - will Mr. Bakhurst tell us what they are, whether he thinks they are working and will he publish them? Again, the first question is whether RTÉ will commit to some kind of an audit of editorial policy or at least to considering that and coming back to us? Second, will Mr. Bakhurst tell me about whatever internal protocols are there on balance and impartiality?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
On the question of audit, we will go away and consider it. We will go away and look at whether there is a way that is useful to look at making sure we get a range of views on air. Whether it is an audit or something else, and I suspect it may be something else, we are happy to engage on that.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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I thank Mr. Bakhurst. On one particular issue, complaints can be made about an individual programme but there is a wider issue of bias over time on issues-----
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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-----and I am not aware that it has ever been looked at.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I understand the Senator's point. As he knows, we have journalistic guidelines. They are currently being updated for the organisation. They are published on the website and are available for everyone to look at. All our content online also has to live up to those journalistic guidelines. That includes balance, fairness, accuracy and all the things you would expect. They are currently being updated and should be republished in the coming weeks.
Rónán Mullen (Independent)
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Are there protocols for implementing them?
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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There is probably a growing disappointment that every time RTÉ witnesses are in with us there is something kicked up. Deputy Brennan said they might not realise the depth of feeling among the public. The withholding of the TV licence probably gives them a fair idea. There is also a depth of disappointment and hurt within the organisation. The public are sick to death of this. They are seeing a lack of value here. It is almost the most opaque transparency I have ever seen because those top ten lists are not giving the full story. Unless a journalist or one of us picks the lists apart, we are not getting the full story.
I understand there is no presenting allowance in RTÉ. There is an acting up allowance. In the case where a reporter is consistently a news anchor, they get €20 after tax on top of that. There is a perception among the public that if you are on air-----
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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There is a presenter allowance.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Okay, but it seems, as my colleague Senator Ní Chuilinn said, that a lot of people have asked to be reclassified as presenters if they are on air an awful lot and have been refused. Many would say that with Derek Mooney or whomever - we do not know whether George Lee got that, considering his allowance - it was done at the stroke of a pen. Will Mr. Bakhurst commit to talking with these presenters who are acting as presenters but are not being classified as that?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I am very happy to. People in the organisation know I have an open door if people want to come and talk about their issues. I do not always agree with them. I get a lot of people coming to talk about their issues. As Senator Ní Chuilinn said, she came to me when she was there. I am happy to talk about it. One of the reasons people get presenter allowances, as I tried to explain, is so we do not get into a position of someone being used as a presenter, bump up their salary by €20,000 to do that and then they go back to their day job, maybe the role disappears or we-----
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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But that is what happened to Derek Mooney.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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Granted, he hosted an awful lot of programmes and again I do not want to victimise him, but he is now on a consistently high salary.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
That is my exact point. We use presenter allowances so we do not get into that position any more if people stop presenting. They get it while they are presenting. It has happened before. You get well-known correspondents who might present one of the main news programmes. They say they will do it for three years and see how it goes and if it does not work out they go back to their correspondent role. What you do not want to do is give them an inflated salary that they end up taking back to their previous role.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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There is a perception though that if you are on-air talent or a presenter or reporter - based on the top ten - that you are probably on a fair salary. I think it is really clear there are two very widening tiers of salaries among, say, the likes of reporters and journalists, those who are doing the hard work, rather than the stars.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
I can only speak to news and current affairs because it has been a very live issue there. The head of news and current affairs, Deirdre McCarthy, and the HR people do a very strict benchmarking on salaries and there is absolute fairness across the presenters and their roles. People come in and ask for more money, sometimes, and they are told "No, we have benchmarked you. You are in that zone", so it is very rigorous.
Alison Comyn (Fianna Fail)
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This is probably a wider conversation. I have just one more question, a Chathaoirligh. It is a "Yes" or "No" answer. Will Mr. Bakhurst commit to publishing clear pay bands, clear role definitions and clear rules on staff, contractor and dual-role payments, so RTÉ staff, the public and the committee can see there is one fair system rather than one system for journalists and another one for the stars?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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It is important to say we all believe in a strong RTÉ and want a strong RTÉ. It is really important to have a strong news and current affairs output in terms of trust and information versus disinformation and misinformation. Workers want to stay loyal to the audience but they are finding it harder to stay loyal to the organisation when these two-tier systems are in play. It goes without saying Mr. Bakhurst has a duty of care to the workers who are on the wrong contracts so I am glad he has an open door and will be able to talk to them. He has a duty of care to Seán Rocks's widow. I think that has been said by the Chair as well. This goes without saying, but he has a duty of care to anybody who is suffering with their mental health as a result of having to engage with the very difficult processes in RTÉ, the WRC and wherever else. If anybody who is working in RTÉ is vulnerable and in a difficult place with their mental health and if they are out on sick leave, Mr. Bakhurst has a duty of care to them. Culture is not words on a wall but how people feel on a Sunday night before they come to work. RTÉ has the words "courage", "accountability" and "respect" as its values printed on its walls and windows. It is really important its management remembers what people feel on a Sunday night before they go to work.
I have a couple of questions about the voluntary exit programme. I see in the briefing note there were 67 exits and 30 role suppressions. Was Seán Rocks included in the role suppressions?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Okay. On the VEP for 2026, the briefing note states, "RTÉ has written a letter of application seeking approval for a second Voluntary Exit Scheme to launch in 2026". I have workers telling me they have been told it is sitting with Government. To Ms Quill, it was my understanding RTÉ was to present a business case and you would then go back and seek to-----
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Okay. It is not sitting with Government as the Department is waiting on a business case.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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For RTÉ workers waiting for the 2026 VEP, it is nowhere near progressed because the Department does not have the business case yet.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
Sorry, can I just clarify on that? We were asked for a few things. The first thing we were asked for was a comprehensive review of how last year's scheme worked and the savings it achieved. That was gone through with Ms Quill and her colleagues to show it was handled properly and correctly. That was phase one. The second phase was to provide the business case which we are currently working on, which will be done in due course.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Okay.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Production is being outsourced increasingly and a lot of people in RTÉ are worried about that. Somebody mentioned "Up for the Match". There was talk of €500,000 being allocated for the tender for that for the two shows, that it would be done at Croke Park and that Croke Park would be rigged. What is happening in studio 4 or 5 or wherever it would normally be with the rigged studio RTÉ has and that it pays for? What is happening with the presenters who were doing a great job who are there and being paid anyway? What is happening with the production staff and make-up staff who are there who really love working and want to work? RTÉ is already paying for a fully set-out studio and wonderful staff. Why would it give €500,000 to a production company to produce two shows? That company will have to rig it. It seems like an awful lot of wasted money.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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She is getting there though.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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No, I am talking about production costs.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Can you answer the question?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We are caught for time. Can you answer the question specifically?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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In July when "Up for the Match" is on, what is everybody working in RTÉ and being paid to work in RTÉ doing when the organisation is outsourcing and giving €500,000 to a production company?
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Nobody in facilities is sitting doing nothing and not rostered when RTÉ is producing "Up for the Match" out of house.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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I have a couple of very quick questions. I support the commitment to independent production on the part of RTÉ.
There is, however, a big difference between an independent production company providing something like "Dancing with the Stars" and where you have a presenter who has his own independent production company. My question is direct. Catchy Title Ltd. is Oliver Callan's production company. Could he, in theory, allow "Callan's Kicks" to be broadcast on Today FM or Newstalk?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
I would assume that within his contract, he owns the intellectual property, IP, so the answer is that he could. I have one other clarification. When the Deputy was doing the maths on what he might be earning out of that, I do not know if Catchy Title Ltd. invoices for his stand-up. There could be numerous other activities that are invoiced by the company.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, but Mr. Lynch must appreciate it is based on a programme on RTÉ. It is based on his reputation there.
Is there a standard presenter's salary in RTÉ? How is it determined? Is it on the basis of experience or listenership? How is the salary determined?
Mr. Adrian Lynch:
It is important to say that following on from the expert advisory committee reports, there have, for example, been expressions of interest, salary is published, there is a whole process and pilots are created. There has been one for news, one for Radio 1 and one for 2 FM. There were 500 applicants for the 2 FM role. All of them were processed.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Is there is a standard presenter's salary? How is it determined?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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There are criteria as to how-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Could that be shared with the committee?
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Bakhurst mentioned that he came before the Minister and had looked at the top 30 salaries and investigated other points. Would he be willing to publish the top 30? Has he asked those 30 individuals and are they happy to have them published?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
We have not asked them this time. Twenty of the 30 are published because they comprise the top ten and the leadership team. There are another eight, nine, ten or whatever. The most recent time we tried to go through this process, when we asked people they said they did not want their salaries published because of their rights under the general data protection regulation, GDPR.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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During contractual negotiations, that might be a matter worth reviewing. That is-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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One matter that many people are concerned about is the "The Late Late Toy Show" appeal and the decision to pay €855,000 to consultants to manage the donations and so on. Like many others, I would a make a donation on the basis that the money is going to children's charities. It is a cause of significant concern to see that level of money. Why not just look at giving it to existing charities-----
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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-----to manage?
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
It is really important for the audience to know this. That amount of money is over five years. Less than 3% of the funds raised are spent on administration. I think the Deputy will agree. We have worked with Community Foundation Ireland, CFI, to do that role so far. It is highly professional. The important thing with 97% of the money is that it gets spent on the right charities so there is due process.
Malcolm Byrne (Wicklow-Wexford, Fianna Fail)
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Why not make it clear in advance which are the five charities that are regulated by the charities commissioner? There is an additional layer.
Mr. Kevin Bakhurst:
It is done through CFI. The whole point of the "Late Late Toy Show" appeal is that it is done for children's charities across the island of Ireland, including Northern Ireland, so it needs professionals. What I would say is that with most charities the overheads are around 20% and for ours they are approximately 3%. It is an extremely efficient and a robust governance way of doing it.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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We have confirmation that the redundancy business case has not gone to the Department. That has been outlined by Mr. Bakhurst and the Department. Will he write to us and let us know how RTÉ is managing those who are on the 50-50 pension scheme, the approved retirement fund, ARF, and how it is dealing equitably with management and staff for a workaround, which I believe is right, to allow them to work the extra year to the age of 66? There are issues in that regard.
As Chairperson of this committee, I believe we should be writing to the chairman of RTÉ to say that a full benchmarking programme needs to happen in RTÉ immediately. There also needs to be a legacy consideration of how people were treated. We will be writing to the chair of RTÉ asking him to instigate that immediately, based on all the evidence we have heard here today and based on the Seán Rocks story.
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I have not finished. I have not asked the question yet. On the basis of what we know now about the salaries published, the top ten, top 30 or whatever, as the Chair of this committee, I say publicly: completely disregard them. They are an absolute waste of space. We now know, for instance, that the manner in which the list is put together does not include payments that are made through outside companies either owned or contracted in. Mr. Bakhurst has, in fairness, admitted that there could be one or more presenters who may be paid more than he is. He has said all along that no one should be paid more than him. I agree with that. We have no transparency. It does not matter how many footnotes are at the bottom. We have no transparency on how much RTÉ is actually paying these people. We should completely disregard what is reported. As committee members, we should all agree to completely disregard that list because it is a waste of space and time. We must sort out how to look at it in a transparent way.
The totals have been done. Mr. Bakhurst said they are in the annual report. The segments reported increase by €10,000 each time. We want to know that if there is an allowance, how much more that is worth on top of a salary. If people are contractors, we want to know how much they are getting as a top-up. People either receive a salary or a contracted salary. We want to know if there is a top-up or if they are staff members. We want to know the total amount that each person is getting from the contractual arrangement with an outside company and-or, if that is not available, the total amount that company, if the person concerned is a director, is getting as well.
Mr. Bakhurst could very well come back and claim commercial sensitivity. I believe that, as a committee, we would then write to him and say that in a scenario where people are contracting in services, if they are not willing to give those figures out, we cannot contract them. We could make that a condition of doing such work. That is the only way to get transparency around how much money is being given to all of these people. It would be helpful to RTÉ.
I have a funny feeling that some presenters are going to be doing documentaries that will come on the air very soon. I have a funny feeling that will probably happen. The documentaries could be very good but that is not the issue. My concern is that it would just be a way of paying them more. That is the concern of all of us here.
Mr. Oliver Callan has been mentioned. He took on his show in 2023. He obviously gets paid pro rata. That is what was said, and that is fair enough. Of course, the question anybody would ask is whether the amount that his work company or another company that is hiring him - because we have now established, which I did not know, that there are three ways to get income - went up or down at the same time he moved on with extra hours and pay. I do not necessarily need an answer now but the point is that we are meant to be transparent about taxpayers' money that is going into RTÉ and is paid to these people. By the way, it is not just presenters; it could be producers or anyone else. There is no transparent way of seeing this unless we do what I have said. It is otherwise impossible.
On the basis of what I have said, we will be writing to Mr. Bakhurst and the Minister. To be honest, the idea of the BBC or anyone else not doing it this way does not stack up. From a transparency point of view, if we do not make changes to ensure that we get the totality of what people are paid, these top ten or top 30 figures, for which I have no time for anyway, are absolutely a waste of space and time. They do not give a true reflection of what is going on and they certainly do not ensure that nobody is being paid more than Mr. Bakhurst.
I thank the witnesses for their time. We will shortly go into private session.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Is there an update on Mr. Bakhurst's pay?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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I ask the Senator to be quick.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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The reason I ask is-----
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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The reason I ask is not with regard to Mr. Bakhurst's pay in itself but in relation to Patrick Kielty and the negotiations on his pay. Where are we with that? Is there a contingency plan in place if Patrick Kielty does not return because he cannot be paid more than Mr. Bakhurst?
Alan Kelly (Tipperary North, Labour)
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Very briefly.
Garret Ahearn (Fine Gael)
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Has RTÉ started on a contingency plan?