Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 20 May 2026
Joint Committee on Infrastructure and National Development Plan Delivery
Wind Energy Guidelines: Discussion
2:00 am
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I am pleased to welcome Mr. Darragh Kettle, Mr. Stephen Keogh, Ms Brenda Dowling and Mr. Joe Kirwan, Community and Environmental Protection Alliance. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction. I remind members of the committee that they will be afforded six-minute speaking slots for questions and answers, with a second round of questioning to follow, if people so wish.
I have been involved, like many public representatives, in making submissions and observations on wind farm projects around the Laois area, including one that was the subject of High Court proceedings. I want to put it on record that I have made submissions in the past that are on the record with the planning authorities if people want to look at them.
We will proceed with Mr. Darragh Kettle to make an opening statement.
Mr. Darragh Kettle:
We are grateful for the invitation to address the committee today. We appear as members of the Community and Environmental Protection Alliance, CEPA.
In common with the vast majority of people in this country, we fully appreciate the challenges associated with climate change and the urgent need to reduce our CO2 emissions. However, we are concerned that the requirement to achieve climate change targets has resulted in decisions at a national level that disregard and systematically erode the rights, the health and the well-being of citizens and will result in significant irreversible damage if not adequately addressed. After all, there is no such thing as development or progress if the destruction of the environment and the communities who live within that environment is greater than the result of what is trying to be achieved.
We want to use this time to put three evidence-based points before the committee. We will do so as a group with the consent of the committee. The first of these relates to the concept of variable renewable energy. Put simply, this is not cheap. Existing public spending oversight is not surfacing the largest and fastest-growing inefficiency in the electricity generation program, namely, renewable energy
Second, there is an irreconcilable discrepancy between the climate action plan's onshore wind targets and the spatial planning capacity that has been modelled in the research commissioned by the SEAI. This discrepancy is producing legal challenges in planning decisions and raising questions about the alignment of the strategy with binding EU environmental law.
Third, environmental noise from wind turbines is absolutely a public health matter, and the State currently has no dedicated statutory framework to monitor or enforce it. The partial routes that do exist, such as conditions in planning applications attached to individual permissions and the general noise nuisance provisions of the EPA Act 1992, do not in combination provide affected residents with a working pathway to resolution. In short, they help but they do not really solve the problem.
We would like to take the committee through these three issues in a little more detail, mindful of time constraints, etc. My colleagues will give the committee an overview of each point. Mr. Keogh will address the first issue.
Mr. Stephen Keogh:
The first issue relates to wind energy being cheap to the consumer and so on. It is clear, as was reported recently, that Ireland is now the most expensive market in Europe when it comes to electricity, which we are all experiencing. Looking back, the wind farms that went in probably made sense up to about 2019 or 2020. Ever since 2020, we have added approximately 1.3 GW of power to our grid and we have not seen any additional KWs to our grid. As a result, the cost of upgrading our grid and getting it in line to facilitate this is not possible. The largest part of the consumers bill is now made up of the grid infrastructure to support renewable energy. There is a reason Europe has only gone for 40% of its energy through renewable energy. We question why Ireland, for some reason, has gone for an 80% target, which is only a recent target going back to 2020. That target needs to be looked at again. Cian Murtagh, a renowned engineer in this area, has said the grid costs now are somewhere between 40% and 50% of our electricity bills. The more we add, the more that is going to go up. Taking it in very simple terms, there are currently 300-odd wind farms in the country. That is 300 power stations that we would need to get all the infrastructure to. To get from the 5 GW we have now to 9 GW, which is another 4 GW they want to add, is another approximately 200 or 300 wind farms depending on their size and variation. With that, we are looking at more infrastructure going to be spent on all of this and we really have to question whether anybody has done the economic assessment to say that if we did the investment whether it would solve the problem. We would question that. We have to get the information from the Commission for Regulation of Utilities, CRU, to categorically say we are going in the right direction.
Mr. Joe Kirwan:
The second issue is the irreconcilable discrepancy between the climate action plan and the spatial plan. The climate action plan sets out an indicative onshore wind target of approximately 9 GW by 2030. More importantly, this figure does not reconcile with spatial modelling commissioned by the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI. The modelling was carried out by RPS analysis on the capacity for onshore wind, for the noise limits consistent with 2019 draft guidelines are applied. Departmental records on the public record set out the conclusions of the 2021 SEAI-commissioned RPS spatial modelling exercise, finalised that year and formally transmitted to the Department of housing in January 2022. They state, in terms, that the implementation of the upper limit of 43 dB(A) proposed by the 2019 wind energy development guidelines would limit the additional land available for the development of wind energy to 587 sq. km, or 0.8% of Ireland's land area, which on an assumed planning attrition rate of 30% would imply that only an additional 2.6 GW could be deployed. They further state that at least 3.5 GW of the 4.2 GW of then installed wind capacity is at risk of failing to renew planning permission.
I should note to the committee that the 2019 draft wind energy development guidelines asserted that the 43 dB LA90 noise limit was consistent with the 2018 WHO environmental noise guidelines for the European region. That assertion was subsequently demonstrated to be incorrect. A joint submission to the 2020 public consultation, prepared by 13 independent acousticians, established that the WHO 45 dB Lden recommendation equates to approximately 37 dB LA90, not 43 dB LA90. The guidelines, therefore, overstated permitted noise by approximately six decibels. The 2021 RPS spatial modelling was commissioned in part to test what the State's actual onshore wind capacity would be under a noise limit proposed by the 2019 draft guidelines. The answer, as set out above, is approximately 3 GW to 3.5 GW. Applying an upper noise limit of 43 dB - the maximum deployable onshore wind capacity - is in the order of 3 GW to 3.5 GW. The climate action plan target is 9 GW. The gap is not bridgeable through better planning. It is a physical and statistical fact established by the RPS report in 2021.
The inter-ministerial correspondence between November 2021 and April 2022 was not to revise the target downwards to align with capacity. It was to revise the noise limit moving to ETSU-R-97 - a 1997-vintage standard that is 11 years older than the current 2006 guidelines. That decision, in principle, was taken without a strategic environmental assessment that EU law requires before such a policy change can be given legal effect.
Ms Brenda Dowling:
Noise is a public health matter and the State has no enforceable framework. Ms Justice Emily Egan, in her judgment in 2024 said, “There is not a binary choice to be made here between the generation of clean energy by the wind farm, and a good night's sleep for its neighbours. It should be possible to achieve both.” In Ireland today, both are not being achieved. The 2018 WHO environmental noise guidelines recommended a wind turbine noise limit of 45 dB Lden, which is equivalent to 37 dB LA90, but the most recent set of guidelines from New South Wales in Australia are for 33 dB LA90. They include penalties for the special audible characteristics, such as amplitude modulation, tonal noise and low frequency noise. The Irish 2006 wind energy development guidelines are more than 20 years old and still in force. They permit 43 dB LA90 at night. They do not have any penalty for amplitude modulation or tonal noise. There are ten decibels in difference between themselves and New South Wales. That is a doubling in loudness.
The EPA is the national authority for environmental noise. It issued its state of the environment report in 2024. It includes wind turbine noise within its summary for the environmental noise limits of 45 dB Lden. It states that the purpose is to protect human health. It is our own national authority. We also have a national authority for environmental health, which is the HSE's environmental health service. On a regulatory basis, it is involved in every wind farm planning application. In its scoping report to every developer, it recommends that the WHO 2018 guidance is the criteria for health assessment. Unfortunately, that is not happening. Enforcement is a problem. There is no statutory framework for enforcement.
In practice, the EPA is directing wind farm neighbours and all their complaints back to the local authority. It is stating that the complaint is a planning matter and outside its statutory remit. The HSE appears to have no enforcement powers even though the public health Act is in existence. It is a standard formal procedure for the HSE's environmental health service to redirect any complaint related to wind farm noise back to the local authority. Local authorities have a discretion under the planning and environmental enforcements. However, on the documented record at Meenwaun, Cloghan, Kilmeedy, Mauricetown wind farms and many other more, they are not exercising their authority to deal with the noise. A number of these wind farms are unauthorised under environmental planning. They are unauthorised for noise, but nothing is happening for years. Eleven county councils have written to the Minister calling for a moratorium on wind farms until regulations are in place. There is a regulatory gap. It is not theoretical. It produces demonstrable, repeated and unresolved harm.
Mr. Darragh Kettle:
My colleagues have just summarised sections of our proposal. Members have the full detailed copies.
The three issues raised today are not isolated problems. They are symptoms of a deep structural failure in how renewable energy, in particular wind energy policy, is currently being pursued in Ireland. A national target has been set beyond the State’s own modelling spatial capacity. To sustain that target, environmental and noise protections are being weakened rather than strengthened. Given the absence of a statutory regulatory framework, public confidence collapses and communities are being left without meaningful oversight, accountability or remedy. This is not a sustainable pathway to climate action. It is a pathway to escalating legal conflict, raising public expenditure, increasing grid inefficiency and growing public distrust in the renewable energy transition itself.
Ireland can and must pursue decarbonisation, but it must do so lawfully, transparently and within the limits of engineering reality, environmental protection and public health. Climate policy cannot succeed if it is perceived as overriding the very communities and environmental safeguards it claims to protect. The central question before this committee is therefore not whether renewable energy should proceed, but whether it will proceed under a credible regulatory system grounded in evidence, accountability and the rule of law. Without that framework, the State risks replacing one long-term national problem with another.
I thank the committee for its interest. We welcome the opportunity to address any questions.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all four witnesses for their presentation. I call Deputies in the following order; Deputies McCormack, Neville and Stanley. Deputy Tóibín might be back in as well.
Tony McCormack (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses very much for their presentation and opening statement. I am very much in favour of wind farms and solar farms and what they bring to the table regarding our energy dependence. If we look at the geopolitical situation that we are in at the moment, the reliance we have on fossil fuels, the war in Iran and what has happened there with the Strait of Hormuz being closed, something that we have to pursue in Ireland is working with renewables.
We have many wind farms in my own county of Offaly, as Ms Dowling mentioned. In County Offaly, we have 1 GW of power. For the third month in a row, we have been the largest renewable energy supplier to the grid in the country. Most of that is from wind. Between what is in the pipeline and what has planning permission, there is probably another 2.1 GW or 2.2 GW of power to go onto the grid from County Offaly. That will leave us at 2 GW. The most we have ever required in this country is 6.2 GW. If that all goes according to plan, and I know the amounts of electricity that are required for the country will go up in the meantime, that will be over 30% of the requirements of the country. We have a lot of companies, such as Bord na Móna which is now known as BnM, that have gone from brown to green. It has done a fantastic job. We have other companies from across the world that are putting up wind farms and solar farms in Offaly, and right across the country as well, for us to meet our targets that have been set out by 2030.
In saying all that, I am not in favour of wind farms or renewable energy if they are going to affect the people who live closest to them. If there are noise issues, the county councils concerned should pursue strong and quick enforcement with the companies in charge of them. With technology and engineering as it is today, there have to be engineering and technology solutions to the issues, and I hope they will be provided for the people living close to these sites.
It was mentioned that the grid is not sufficient. In the most recent budget, a lot of money was given to EirGrid to upgrade the grid. Another benefit for us in County Offaly is that many companies are looking at having data centres. People talk about data centres as big, nasty things but we need them. If we want to compete in the technology world and have AI solutions, computers and phones, we need data centres to be able to power them. It is not one or the other; we need both and we have to be able to provide power for both.
In future, many data centres will locate beside where the power is being produced, as opposed to having to build a connection to the grid, whether that is from the middle of the country to Dublin or wherever the power is coming from. It is easier to put down fibre than it is to put down a cable to connect to the grid. I hope to see the benefits of that in the Rhode green energy park in the very near future. This will also bring jobs for people living locally.
If we do not have wind energy and solar farms, how can we decouple from fossil fuels and have something that is cleaner and better for the country?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the witnesses to respond to the Deputy's question and comments.
Mr. Darragh Kettle:
The Deputy asked a very reasonable question, and I thank him for it. Our group is absolutely in favour of renewables. The challenge is to find a blend of renewables. The obvious missing piece in the renewables jigsaw in this country is offshore. I fully appreciate that offshore renewable energy is challenging, but the opportunity is so great that we are compelled as a nation and State to explore it.
One point we did not raise in the document was that a strong offshore renewable model gives this country the opportunity to become a strategic global superpower in the generation of energy, not only to address our needs but also to enable us to become a provider of electricity and energy on a European basis. For the past 30 or 40 years, for many good reasons, the Irish economy has relied heavily on the technology and pharma sectors. Offshore wind could enable this country to become an energy superpower and allow-----
Tony McCormack (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We still have to build a grid to get to the offshore sites.
Tony McCormack (Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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My time is limited. I thank Mr. Kettle for his response.
As I said, I am in favour of wind and solar farms, but not if they are to the detriment of people or our history and heritage. We had a concerned group from Monaghan before the committee which has been campaigning for many years about a bog. In fairness, Offaly County Council made a submission to An Coimisiún Pleanála asking that it take cognisance of the history and heritage of the area and reduce by six the number of turbines.
Mr. Stephen Keogh:
It is very important that we follow the signs and information to stop the silos between Departments and the industry. We have to take into account that we have added 1.3 GW of power since 2020 and we are going to invest billions in the grid infrastructure to add more. However, none of this has given us additional power. We need to look at whether we have done the strategic environmental assessment to see if we can fit this into the country and whether we have looked at the economic model to see if investing €18.5 billion in the grid will deliver lower electricity prices. We need to ask what will happen to the people living near these wind farms who are suffering today. We are only going to add to that suffering if the industry and all the Departments do not work together. They are working in silos.
Mr. Joe Kirwan:
I will make one other important point. Where there is a headline figure of 1 GW, only 26% of that is produced, so for every gigawatt we build, about 260 MW will be produced. The headline figure is misleading because every time we hear about a 100 MW wind farm being developed, it means only 26 MW will be produced.
I am not advocating for a gas plant, although gas is needed where there are renewables, but if you build a 100 MW gas plant, it will operate at about 80% efficiency, whereas if you build a wind farm, it operates at about 26% efficiency currently in Ireland. You are paying for a production system to create a quarter of what another plant could do. We are not advocating for nuclear power, but it should be mentioned.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank everyone for coming in today. No matter what the opinions, it is always good to have different views and hear from different sides. For context, for how long has the group been together?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We will come to that. I will shoot through a few specific questions and we can see where it leads. As a representative body, how many members are in the group?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I know that, but how many members would be in the groups?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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How many people would the four witnesses purport to represent here today? This is just for context.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What is the number?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That makes sense. There are 80 groups, and roughly 60 or 70 people per group.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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All I am asking is how many people the four witnesses claim to represent. I do not mean that in a bad way; we are just not sure. If it is roughly 5,000 people, that is a lot of people. Do not get me wrong.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I get that. I can see the clock ticking-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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-----which means I have less of a chance to ask questions.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Geographically speaking, are there groups throughout the country or are they more midlands heavy?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is nationwide.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is fair. I was a county councillor for 15 years, so, in fairness, I know the situation in most places.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It was said the alliance is not against wind energy. What would it see as the solution to the energy deficit the country faces? I am asking out of curiosity.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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If that is the answer, that is absolutely fine. What would the alliance like to see happen if it got the opportunity? The group was marching outside Leinster House two years ago and now its members are in here. Out of interest, what would be the request?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Is noise the main issue?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Ms Dowling referred to health. I ask her to contextualise that for me.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What does that mean?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The issue is sleep deprivation.
Ms Brenda Dowling:
There are four pathways for environmental noise. The first is high annoyance. The second is sleep deprivation and sleep disturbance. The third is cognitive difficulties. The fourth is stress on the heart and heart disease. Those are the four pathways for health impact and harmful effects.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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All the groups would say that is the main issue.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What distance did the alliance say it would like the turbines to be set back from the houses?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I presumed it might have been said and that I had missed it.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What is the view?
Ms Brenda Dowling:
-----they will not give a set-back distance. I respect that because it is a matter of health, and it is for the health authorities and the Environmental Protection Agency to state it. The HSE environmental health service has categorically stated that the 2018 guidelines of the World Health Organization, WHO, are the benchmark. That is roughly 37 dB. In Australia, which has newer development guidelines, the figure is 33 dB.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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In simple terms, what does that mean?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I know, but I want to get very specific rather than talking about the general situation. What would a specific situation look like? If we have a wind farm in a location, how far back would it have to be?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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We are talking about noise. Are we talking about a mile or two miles or a kilometre, 500 m or 100 m?
Ms Brenda Dowling:
I can say that 6 dB would bring it down to 37 dB, so the set-back distance would have to be doubled. Currently, four times the set-back distance is being looked at. That is a visual set-back distance, and it is from 2019. It would certainly be eight times the set-back distance for noise.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That would be double the set-back distance that is there at the moment.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Approximately and generally.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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In layman's terms, what are we talking about?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It is double the set-back distance.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If I understand it correctly, the set-back distance is-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Let us keep it simple and in layman's terms.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Keeping it in layman's terms, the set-back distance is-----
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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"Set-back" is a term that-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The set-back distance is approximately four times the height of-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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-----of the turbine. If the turbine is 150 m high, then the set-back distance is 600 m.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I never heard the term before. What does that mean, then?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It would be 600 m.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It would be 1.2 km for a turbine that is 150 m in height.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is the number I was looking for. Ms Dowling would be happy enough with that.
Ms Brenda Dowling:
I am happy with the WHO. It all depends, however, and this is where it gets a little bit technical. If we take a flower to represent a turbine, and it is on a very short stem, and then we have a turbine on a very tall stem, the diameter of the blade will be the same length, but there will be a very different noise impact.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I know.
Ms Brenda Dowling:
It has to come back to the science, and the science, unfortunately, is going to be in decibels. With respect, if it is a noise for a roadway, we have an environmental noise directive. If we are looking at the noise impact from roads, that is always based on noise limits on decibels. It is not based on set-back distance.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses. I was just trying to get a sense of things.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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I thank all the witnesses for coming in and the committee for facilitating this important discussion. I am in favour of using a blend of sources of renewable energy. We have had Wind Energy Ireland in regularly. I have seen its representatives in and out of here often over the last 14, 15 or 16 years. It is important, therefore, that communities, like those represented by the alliance, also have representatives come in. I also recognise the work that has been done. All of the people involved have day jobs, families and everything else, and they have had to try to do this research and everything else.
If I ask whether there is a one-fits-all solution or any quick fixes, the answer is "No". We also have to accept that the alternatives may mean that not everybody will be happy. We need to become energy independent insofar as possible. We will soon have the Celtic interconnector with France. I would like to see energy being exported through that interconnector if we have a surplus, but we are not at that point yet. Solar power, done properly, is something this State has only started to develop. It is in its infancy. We are really behind the curve with that technology. Power generation from anaerobic digestion is minuscule. It is a drum I hammered hard here as an Opposition spokesperson on climate and energy between 2016 and 2020. We have huge amounts of farm and other waste that could be used for anaerobic digestion, but we have not done that. There is high energy demand in the winter, yet we have not even considered hydropower. I have raised it numerous times and it is just dismissed. We have more water than anywhere else in Europe. Spain uses hydropower. It even catches water supplying towns as it is going down from a reservoir with small turbines that are in place. We have a lot of potential in that area. That forms another part of the solution to the problem.
Offshore wind generation has not happened. Let us be honest about it. It has not happened because it is more expensive, but that is not a reason for not doing it. Onshore wind is part of the solution but continuing to only use it is causing more and more problems, some of which have been outlined today. If we try to go from 5 GW to 9 GW, that will lead us into further problems.
The fact that we do not have regulations is strange. People complain the whole time about us being overregulated here, but on this issue, we do not have regulations. I have brought forward Bills on this topic over the last 16 years, or attempted to do so. The Wind Turbine Regulation Bill 2025 has gone through First Stage in the Dáil. It sets out simple measures. I am not expecting everybody to agree with it, but I am trying to prompt action. If people want to change the Bill, they can do so.
The Government did not oppose the Bill and I welcome that. I am not being factional about this but the Government told me at the time that we would see progress within three months from the date I brought in the Bill. I brought it in a couple of weeks before Christmas. I asked the Taoiseach, Deputy Micheál Martin, about it recently, and there is nothing there yet. In his answer to me on the floor of the Dáil, and this was revealing, he said that if we have regulations, we might not be able to build enough wind farms. It is onshore wind farms, of course, that he is talking about. A lot of us have suspected for years that this is the reason we do not have offshore wind farms. I am trying to be objective here.
We need set-back distances. Deputy Neville asked about noise. I think people would live with the WHO limits. That will depend on the size and type of the turbines. As regards location and zoning, are we going to kill off local government altogether? There has to be some.
There should be an onus on councillors to zone. It is not good enough for councillors to say they will leave that to the Minister or that they will zone but they know the Minister will overrule it. The primary responsibility should rest with local councillors. They have a responsibility to do that. There is also a responsibility for that to be respected by us here at Dáil and Government level. Visual impact has to be taken into consideration. We cannot just have them anywhere because of issues with shadow flicker, noise and setback, and infrastructure and visual impact. Solar now is more effective given the new technology. We hear that from householders. Someone told me the other day that he is charging the car and selling electricity back into the grid. He has more than he needs. If that can be done on a small scale, it shows that the new solar panels are a lot more effective. We need to accept the fact that we are going to have to build solar farms on a modest scale wherever is suitable. Everybody might not like anaerobic digestion but we have a huge volume of farm waste, which causes problems of a different kind. Here is a source of income for farms. On hydro, we have more water than anywhere else, particularly in winter when we have high demand for electricity. The winter that just passed, the amount of bloody rain that fell. We have huge potential offshore and that is where we need to go.
I have attended different meetings. The Cathaoirleach and I have attended meetings in Laois and I have attended some in Offaly as well with Deputy Clendennen over the years on this, including down Lemanaghan Bog and different places. It is deemed a very important cause away down there. I am not asking the witnesses to say whether they would accept anaerobic digestion in their back yard, or 1,000 acres of solar panels on the hillside beside them. In general, though, if that approach was taken, do they believe that the 80 affiliated groups would accept that we have to accept some pain or inconvenience here? If you want to fry an egg, you have to crack it. If want to make an omelette, you have to crack several of them. That is the question. People would have to accept that.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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Wind farms on their own will not do it because it is an unstable source. It is great,; it is a good source of energy. What I am saying is that we will need some solar farms, a lot of anaerobic digesters which will have to be done on a localised basis.
Mr. Stephen Keogh:
As long as they are regulated and people are protected, why would people object to something that is there and is supplying power? We have not studied anaerobic digesters and how the affect the environment. I cannot give the Deputy a complete answer as to whether we would support that.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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They are good for the environment.
Mr. Joe Kirwan:
It is a whole energy policy. It is about land use. If we get back to the RPS report, it is about applying the science and saying this is suitable for that. Local government is so important and it is being eroded every day. The Coolglass judgment in particular turns it all back on its head again. If we can do proper planning, people will have faith in the system that is in place. If I have problem and someone is complaining of the noise, it should not take 12 years and a High Court case to fix it. That is where the mistrust lies. People have lost faith in the system. We need to have properly planned land use and proper planning, and energy policy. There is a 9 GW target in place at the moment and another Department is saying it is not achievable if we use the 2019 guidelines. We are not energy experts. We are all individuals who have paid jobs. We are here as volunteers today. That is where we start with proper energy policy.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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The committee might consider submitting the opening statement to the Departments of the environment and energy as well.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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No problem, I know what the Deputy is saying.
Brian Stanley (Laois, Independent)
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We might send it to the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien as well. I mean that in a helpful way. Thank you for your indulgence, a Chathaoirligh.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Míle buíochas daoibh as teacht isteach inniu. Apologies, I have missed the opening statement. I had another responsibility. My political party supports renewable energy. We believe that there needs to be a mix of energy on the systems. Food security is important for our country as is energy security, especially when we see what has happened in Ukraine and the Strait of Hormuz. The whole approach to renewable energy has been a mess in this country. We were promised that we would be the Saudi Arabia of wind energy and we are importing energy now. There have been more conferences by the Government on offshore wind energy than there are turbines sticking out of the sea. There is not one functional offshore wind turbine at the moment. The seven that were stuck up on the Arklow bank have been decommissioned. That is an absolute disgrace in terms of inability to deliver. As was mentioned, one thing that is missing from the whole political system here is the word "consent". I had an opportunity to visit Brussels previously to look at the Belgian energy system and the different aspects they use for their planning permissions. The number two item was the consent of the people. That is often completely absent from planning processes here. The Government goes about a plan of action that is diametrically opposed to the consent of the individuals. Rather than bringing people with them, they create resistance to the issues.
The climate action Bill is problematic. It is the basis of the court case the witnesses have mentioned. It has reduced communities' ability to push back on what is happening. This is also why the Galway ring road was not built. It does not put human needs on a par with climate needs in relation to some of these issues.
A spatial analysis report was commissioned by the SEAI on wind turbine noise and the modelling and spatial development of that. Have the witnesses ever seen that report?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Can the committee put in a request that we would----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Just run through the report formally.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The formal name of the report is the SEAI Report on Wind Turbine Noise Modelling, compiled by the RPS group, national territory mapping for renewable electricity framework. That is roughly the name of the report. This report looks at the spatial delivery of turbines and renewable energy. Correct me if I am wrong.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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When does the Deputy think that report was completed?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The witnesses might be able to help me here. Was it 2021?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The committee will follow that up.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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It is important for the committee to have sight of this before we can make proper decisions. In 2016, we were promised regulations in this space. The reason they are not forthcoming is that regulations could be used to defend communities or to ensure that certain land was not used. The Government feels that regulation could reduce the land available for these types of projects. One issue I would love to talk about, which featured on "Prime Time Investigates" a while ago, is the curtailment system. My understanding is that the grid is not strong enough to take all the renewable energy at any given time. There are physical problems with the grid in relation to it. That is why the ESB is so against domestic microgeneration as well. Some of it is also because electricity is produced at night time. Wind turbines flow at night time but there is not as much demand.
With people buying and electric cars and trying to plug them in overnight, that would alleviate some of that problem and they would be able to suck down some of the energy. A lot of people who are getting solar panels are also getting batteries. In the winter time, they will be able to start accessing those batteries. Could Ms. Dowling explain her position on curtailment?
Ms Brenda Dowling:
On curtailment, it is a constraint issue if you do not have enough of a grid line. It is like a local road versus a highway. That is a constraint issue. Curtailment is generally because it is a variable renewable energy source. The power is not flowing at a constant rate; it goes up and down. It is actually a safety mechanism. In this country, we have done an amazing job and brought the SNP level up to 75%. That is an engineering feat.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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What does that mean?
Ms Brenda Dowling:
It means that 75% of the energy we can carry on the grid at any one time can come from a variable renewable energy source. There is a big difference between renewable energy and variable renewable energy. The variability and intermittency is the problem. We are constantly curtailing. It is especially at night when wind farms tend to be very productive.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Why is that? I have heard that. You would imagine-----
Ms Brenda Dowling:
The answer is physics. It is because of the atmospheric drop and the temperature drop. The wind is carried more. It is actually a bit of a mismatch when we think that they are generally more productive at night but we need the energy during the day. We have to measure that and get the information out. Unfortunately, it is not being provided at the moment. It is about the capacity factor of each wind farm. The capacity factor will say how efficient that wind farm is. Unfortunately, we do not need the energy at night.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Are wind farms being told to stop producing? Are they being paid for time they are not producing?
Ms Brenda Dowling:
They are. They are being paid for those times, be it curtailment or dispatch down, which it currently is. Whether it is due to constraint and bad planning where they put the wind farm in the wrong place and the grid infrastructure is not great, they will still get paid. It is being curtailed because of our safety limit of 75%. There was a plan back in 2020 to bring the SNP level up to 95%. An energy expert, Professor David Newbery, used to sit on that committee. We have a regulator here in Ireland, the CRU. In the North, there is another regulator but we have one all-Ireland grid.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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There is one energy market.
Ms Brenda Dowling:
Yes. Professor David Newbery sat on that committee. A year after stepping down, he issued a paper with the ESB stating curtailment is Ireland's problem. It is here now and we have 14% or 15% curtailment, which is double what the climate action plan has limited. The climate action plan said 7% is the limit. If we are going above 7%, we are having problems. We are at double that at this stage. He actually stated we would be going up to 40% or 50% curtailment. My problem is-----
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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If we add new turbine farms to the grid, we are just increasing that curtailment level. There are diminishing returns for every turbine that is added to the system.
Mr. Stephen Keogh:
That is since 2020. If you take the spatial plan, because what is happening is they are putting the turbines too close together. In a particular wind farm, they are placing them too close together and that affects the performance level they are getting from them as well. All of that adds up. The more we add, the more inefficient it actually gets. There is a level-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If the industry knows that, why is it putting them too close together and losing revenue and efficiency?
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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They are still getting paid.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If there was no curtailment, they would not get paid.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Ms Dowling is saying if the turbines are too close to each other, they are not all getting a free blast of wind.
Ms Brenda Dowling:
If we were in Germany and in that jurisdiction, when you put in your planning application - it is there under the EIA directive - you have to bring in certificates for the machines. When you are handing in those certificates, it sits under the building controls system. We have building controls here but we do not enforce them to the same level. That will tell them how efficient the entire wind farm will be. Everybody adds 4 MW to 4 MW, if you add up all of those turbines and since there are then of them, you will get 40 MW. That is not how it works. It depends on how they are all spaced.
That is there and all of that information is there. If they were not getting money from the State by way of revenue, they would have to get money from a financial market. A financial market will not give them money based on what they are handing in. They would be making that demand and looking for the annual energy output.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Is Ms Dowling saying curtailment is a fundamental part of the economic financial plan?
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I am sorry for the interruption.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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That is no problem at all. I have asked my questions.
Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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I will address another controversial topic, which is battery storage. Battery storage would probably suck up some of that extra power that is being created to then push it into the system.
Ms Brenda Dowling:
Not for long enough. The whole reason we are doing this is for renewable energy to help save the environment. Batteries are not environmentally friendly. I do not have an issue and the committee needs to investigate offshore wind and anaerobic digesters but everything needs to be regulated and everything needs to be strategically and environmentally assessed. At present, they are not. For batteries, above all else, it is for health and safety.
In Oranmore, County Galway last year, there was an event at a place of work where batteries went on fire. The firemen came out and just because it was Galway city, they happened to have robotic, specialist equipment. If it was a battery in Offaly, I do not know if the fire service there has that. The firemen are still off duty. It was a very short distance away from a primary school and secondary school. The Health and Safety Authority is not involved in our planning system until afterwards. There are certain aspects we really need to strategically look at.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are welcome. Our objective is trying to determine how we address our current energy challenges and to ensure as a country, we have independence, security and affordability. I am a TD for Offaly. If we look at what we have done to hit that target of 9 GW for 2030, there is a pipeline of 1 GW for solar and 8 GW nationally, with 1.1 GW in the county. There is a battery and gas pipeline. Offaly is only 2.3% of the land mass. Should every county not be doing that?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I did not mean to get into local issues but-----
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Let me respond to that. I was a councillor for ten years. I was heavily involved in the county development plan. We have been very pro-renewable energy across a raft of measures. We have also been cognisant of the sensitivities. My own party voted against the spatial planning for Lemanaghan Bog back at the time of the county development plan. There has been a lot of uncertainty since. Thankfully, in recent days, there was unanimous support in the council based on strategic and environmental analysis by the local authority of what our position would be. That is something I raised concern about in the past.
When Ms Dowling touch on noise, I am fully aware of the issues locally and I have engaged with local residents, the local authority and with the wind farm developer to try to get to a conclusion.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I think we are making progress; I hope we are. Let us look at decibel levels.
The World Health Organization and Wind Energy Ireland talk about less than 45 dB. If we are going to start setting decibels at a fraction of that, and this is an infrastructure committee, are there going to be broader issues across society in relation to infrastructural development because the decibel will be literally too high? For example, to put this in perspective, if a wind farm is 45 dB, a motorway is roughly 80 dB to 90 dB in terms of recognised noise. From our perspective as a committee, does Ms Dowling see that as an issue?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Can Ms Dowling point me to that report that conclusively identifies the health impact?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Where it is under 45 dB but-----
Ms Brenda Dowling:
No. Where it is 45 dB, that means it is 37 dB LA90 and we are at 33 dB LA90 nationally. The 2006 guidelines are at 43 dB LA90 at night. The HSE and the EPA are the experts, not me. The EPA is our national body and the experts on environmental noise. As part of the strategic environmental assessment to the Department of housing, it stated that the WHO noise guidelines were the standards to protect human health.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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From Ms Dowling's perspective, how many wind farms around the country does she consider to be out of compliance with recommendations from the WHO?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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What does Ms Dowling understand it to be?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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In relation to our committee, in terms of the role that we have to try and address infrastructure-----
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Ms Dowling to speak more directly to the microphone rather than the Deputy. The mic might not be picking everything up.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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My train of thought is gone. In terms of infrastructure, we have this land-mass and we can take Offaly as an example of where we have bog-lands. Should we be considering - I appreciate Ms Dowling might not have a position on this yet but she might have considered it - data centres as a realistic alternative? Are anaerobic digesters a realistic alternative if we were to reduce the volume of wind farm developments?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Looking at the likes of data centres or anaerobic digesters-----
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Is there any European member state, and I am conscious we have wind energy guidelines and there is an encouragement-----
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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They are being drafted and hopefully we will see them sooner rather than later. That would be my prerogative.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Is there any member state in the EU Ms Dowling thinks has a maybe not perfect but reasonable set of guidelines or policy around wind energy development that we could adopt in the morning?
Ms Brenda Dowling:
Most other member states, when it comes to wind farms, fall under the regulation of the environmental protection agencies. For some reason, we leave it to the local authorities. If you are in another member state, first, you will have a proper, competent authority to deal with and, second, statutory noise protections. Here in Ireland we do not have any statutory noise protections other than the protection of noise at work. Noise in the workplace is the only-----
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I will have to defend the local authority as being a competent authority.
Ms Brenda Dowling:
I compliment local authorities as well, especially Offaly County Council. It has been excellent in providing information. Somebody previously mentioned that local government has been eroded of its ability to do its job, but Offaly County Council has been very helpful in providing information. Limerick City and County Council, where I am from, is probably one of the only county councils that has the expertise - a noise expert - on staff. There are three wind farms in planning at the moment with An Coimisiún Pleanála, and for all three wind farms the local expert at the local authority has pointed to the errors that sit in the 2006 wind energy guidelines. In our Limerick development plan, we have a development management standard which states at night it must be 38 dB LA90, and that is to protect sleep.
While I compliment the unanimous support from all the councillors in Offaly County Council, they also put forward a motion last month, and it also received unanimous support, that the executive, when they were reviewing any future wind farm, would look at the development management standard that sits in the Offaly county development plan. It states that the 2018 WHO noise is the standard for wind farm noise to protect human health. They asked for their executive to assess against that health standard. It is there in black and white. It is in the Offaly county development plan. They asked to reaffirm it and to state that when the executive report goes to An Coimisiún Pleanála, it would include an assessment of that development management standard. Unfortunately, it has not happened in the case of Lemanaghan but there is another report for Ballincor, which will be due in the next four or five weeks.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Ballincor was never in our county development plan zoned area, so that is a separate issue. Again, I do not want to-----
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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From my perspective it does because we have a social contract with the county.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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We very much clearly outlined where the zoned areas were. I personally would have an issue with applications in areas that are not zoned within our county development plan.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I will tease out the local because this will come up in wind energy guidelines-----
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I will ask this question as a result of that. We have a local authority that is leading on this in each area, but if it were to move to the likes of the EPA in terms of a regulator or an alternative regulatory body, does it risk being too focused on one particular area? The likes of a local authority has to consider the political, economic, social, technological, environmental and legal aspects of it. Does it become too focused?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Every State body and stakeholder would have it, but if it is weighted solely on environmental reasons, it has a potential to fail oversight in other areas.
Mr. Darragh Kettle:
There is a concern that the move towards climate targets, and the race towards achieving these targets, is actually eroding the role of the local authority. I have a real concern around that. The Deputy mentioned a contract with the community. The local authority is the custodian of a local area. The officials in a local authority are the best-placed people in the country to understand the environmental resource they have, how to develop and exploit it, and how to protect the people who live in the area. I am based in County Laois. We are very much involved in the Coolglass case, which has gone to the Supreme Court. The net result of that may be a mechanism that bypasses the local authority for these projects in the future. That is a huge concern.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious Deputy Crowe wants to come in. Is there one country the witnesses can give me as an example?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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What about Europe?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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As far as the witnesses are concerned, there is no country in the whole of Europe-----
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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Is there a best practice country in Europe? Who is the best of the worst?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate what Ms Dowling is saying. Who can we learn from within Europe in relation to wind energy and renewable development? Who can we look at as a country?
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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So every country is doing this right except for Ireland.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The witnesses might come back to the Deputy with an answer, as good as they can, in writing.
John Clendennen (Offaly, Fine Gael)
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That is fine, Chair.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Chair for accommodating me. I am not ordinarily a member of the committee, but I take a keen interest in all of this. I have been following some of the debate we have had. I chaired another committee, which was sitting earlier, so I did not get to follow everything, but I have read the opening statements. I used to be a teacher before getting elected to the Dáil. We can all remember Pythagoras's theorem and all these awful things we had to learn for the leaving cert, but there was a thing called symmetry property. What it means is that the distance from point A to point B is the same no matter where you measure it from. At the moment, I am sitting about 4 m away from the witnesses and they are sitting 4 m from me. It is indisputable, according to the laws of maths. It has been around for thousands of years. The very same principle exists where we talk about setback distances from turbines. If you talk about 500 m of a setback, you cannot erect a turbine within 500 m of a home. Some people like that and some do not, depending on who you meet. I have long been saying that this also works in reverse. Just like what I said there, the witnesses are 4.5 m from me and I am 4.5 m away from them. The same principle works here. I fear what we have not seen yet is all of these setback distances of 500 m. If you take a map of a county, take out your compass and start putting all these interarching circles of 500 m each, very quickly you will sterilise an awful lot of land. I was laughed at when I suggested it some months ago, but now I am starting to see it materialise. I cannot get into specific cases, but there is a well-known case at the moment where a wind farm company objected to a private dwelling. I do not think wind farms and family homes can coexist. Do the witnesses also share my fear that if a turbine cannot be built within 500 m of a house, then a house cannot be built within 500 m of a turbine?
Mr. Darragh Kettle:
Absolutely. There is a more serious and saddening issue. Families have parcels of land that have been in families for decades. As the children grow up and want to build their forever family home, traditionally they were entitled to build it on family land. There was a high-profile situation in recent weeks. There is one that I am familiar with in County Laois where a wind company secured planning permission for a wind farm and resisted every objection and observation from the members of the public that this wind farm might have a detrimental impact on residents in local houses. A couple lodged a planning application, only to have the wind company's agent make an observation to the local authority that the local authority should deny the planning application on a basis that the wind farm, which was not built yet, would have a negative detrimental effect on the occupants of that house if that house were to get planning permission. That is not a simple issue of a wind turbine versus a house.
The imposition of a wind farm in an area of the country is decimating the social fabric of this country. That is the challenge that it is having. It is not a simple argument of the pros and cons of a house in location A or location B; it is the entire community that evolves around that house and the residents of it. What we have all learned over the years in studying this - Deputy Tóibín talked about consent - is the lack of genuine engagement with the community, the lack of consent and the lack of community buy-in for this plan. It is not so much an issue for an individual turbine, but the buy-in for this plan has not been there. That has led us to where we are. We are very conscious that this is an infrastructure committee. This committee is charged with trying to find ways to help the country to deliver infrastructure. When we take the analogies that have just been presented and magnify them on a national scale, we have a really big problem on our hands that national infrastructure cannot be delivered if it does not, on an individual basis, address, engage and solve this problem. You cannot talk about infrastructure if you cannot get one of these things to work in the right place at the right time with the right community support.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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As Mr. Kettle was talking, I was thinking of part of my own county where 13 turbines are planned. If you go to 13 turbines and start doing these circular setback distances around them, you very quickly take out a lot of land. I go to public meetings and the first thing I will hear is about the flicker effect, that they are too tall and a burden on the landscape. I think planning authorities have heard enough of that and it does not really win the day, but when people start weighing up the fact that the son and daughter - who might be young, but will eventually grow up, find a significant other and want to build a home locally - will not be able to build because they are within these circles, that is a huge concern.
The other thing I would like to mention is a recent case where An Coimisiún Pleanála refused a wind turbine in a landmark case because of its proximity to secondary radar that aircraft depend on. It has concluded so we can talk about it. The argument put forward by the Irish Aviation Authority and AirNav Ireland, which are State bodies tasked with safe aviation, was that if turbines are rotating, it clouds up the screen of radar in the control centre. Instead of having these clear skies of aircraft going transatlantic day and night, you would then get this flicker on the screen. It is not the flicker people get in their homes, but a flicker on a radar screen that distorts it. There has been a landmark ruling on that. Given that this ruling has happened, do the witnesses think that we should now revise wind maps all over the country, particularly where there are airfields or radar to remove those wind zonings? If the regulator for aviation safety is saying it is not safe and An Coimisiún Pleanála has ruled on it, do the witnesses think it is right that some of those lands still have a wind zoning on them?
Mr. Darragh Kettle:
I think we need to start with people. Air zoning is very important, but we need to fundamentally start at the most important element in this country, which is the people. We must then take individual groups and interests on a case-by-case basis. I know that is not the answer the Deputy wanted to hear, but-----
Mr. Joe Kirwan:
If safety is a thing, it should be a constraint. It goes back to the point on land use. Before the Deputy came in, we mentioned the RPS analysis where they had done a land use map of the country with the different constraints. Radar should be identified on that as a constraint. It goes back to the infrastructure. If you cannot get that right, you will deliver it and have problems later. If you plan it right at the start, however, you avoid those problems.
Mr. Stephen Keogh:
The infrastructure committee is in charge of delivering. The single biggest thing that this committee could do in bringing things forward is to get all the stakeholders in the room because they are all working in silos, which is why we have ended up in this situation. I think it was mentioned earlier that the wind industry has done extremely well out of this. They continue to do so. Fair play. That is what they are there to do. It is not necessarily delivering everything for the country. It is coming to the detriment of local communities that are affected by this.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Keogh talked about bringing stakeholders together, but the industry needs to be better at engaging with the people first of all.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I got an email months ago from a TV personality. We had them in another committee room here today. They asked whether I would meet with this person because they want to convey to me, on behalf of the wind energy sector, how important this project is. I said I will meet with them, but that they had to meet with the community first. They would not meet with them. If it is sauce for the goose, it must be sauce for the gander. You are either engaging with communities or you are not. It does not convey properly in the planning system that we have had public engagement when you have denied the community a chance to meet with you.
Mr. Stephen Keogh:
The whole Aarhus convention comes in and all of that. The just transition to green energy comes into question and people get suspicious. That is why you end up in the courts and it is a long battle and this is not good for the industry or the country either. We have had the extraordinary situation of a wind farm that applied for planning permission without the consent of the landowner.
When An Bord Pleanála was notified of this, it simply wrote to the developer and asked: "Do you have consent from all the landowners?". The developer simply said "Yes" but did not offer up the consent forms. That community then has to take a judicial review to go and battle that out. There is no fairness or justice in that.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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With the Chairman's forbearance, the Ireland Strategic Investment Fund, ISIF, is a good mechanism for the State to invest in key infrastructure and projects. The witnesses have probably detected that I have major issues with some wind farms. If a wind farm has gone through all planning and it is approved, I accept that some State money would be put into that as seed funding to get a project going. Whether people like it or not, if it is for the greater good of Ireland, I can accept that some taxpayers' money would be put in to do that. Have the witnesses ever encountered State money being used at the planning stage, or at the stage of legal argument? That is what I would have an issue with. I do not have so much of an issue with the State saying it would put 6% funding into the bricks and mortar, because that is leading to something, but I would have a major issue with it being used for legal argument or planning documents. Have the witnesses encountered that?
Ms Brenda Dowling:
Yes, we have. It is interesting that Deputy Crowe mentions the case where a wind farm was looking to build quite closely to Meelick Hill and the AirNav equipment. That was funded through the ISIF. In that case, if we look at all of the funding that went behind the development, the oral hearing and all of the money that came from AirNav, Shannon Airport and all of its time up to the oral hearing and beyond, possibly - we still do not know whether anyone is going to take a judicial review - we see that it is all effectively public money. It is never measured. That is one of the key things that we have been suggesting here. There has been no cost-benefit analysis. Funding, be it for the revenue or the RES funding, needs to be measured and it must be transparent. It must be published.
Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I know of a case that has cost well in excess of €100,000 for planning expertise, legal expertise and the company getting lawyered up. The company put its chest out and said "This is State backed". I will go back to that point. I will accept it and go home with my tail between my legs if it means the State is funding the interconnectors and the cabling. Whether people like it or not, we can argue it is for the betterment of the Irish electricity grid, but I cannot accept that State money, which is taxpayers' money, would be used for legal argument and to lawyer up and pay colossal money to senior counsel, junior counsel, solicitors and legal advisers when the argument is against another State agency. The State's money - taxpayers' money - should not be used for a war to be waged between one arm of the State against another.
I will conclude by saying that I do not want to get into detail on the latter point. I have referred it to the Committee of Public Accounts because that sits here as well. I have sought to get answers in detail but I cannot. I am being stonewalled on some of that. That committee has got answers out of people we never expected would give answers and I hope it will elicit some of the truth in that regard as well.
While these guidelines are well overdue, and they will issue, the whole principle of me being 4 m from these people and them being 4 m from me, and the setback distance for planning comes with a major warning to communities. There would want to be some caveat there that protects the rights of an individual or family to build a dwelling house.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Crowe very much. We have concluded our discussion. It was very helpful and useful. The exchange between the witnesses and members elicited good information that a lot of people might have been unaware of up to now. I thank the witnesses for their presentation. If there are some items of information, we would ask them to get it in to us within the next fortnight if possible. I know the witnesses are acting in a voluntary capacity. There were not too many specific questions. I urge them to get the information to us as soon as is practicable.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, we will ask that page 7 will be published along with the committee's record of today's meeting.
Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The meeting now stands adjourned until 27 May.