Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 13 May 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport
Road Safety: Discussion (Resumed)
2:00 am
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Good morning. The purpose of today’s meeting is to again discuss road safety. Regarding the format of the meeting, I will invite the witnesses in turn to make their opening statements. Once the opening statements have been delivered, I will then call members in the rota order to ask questions. I propose that we schedule a short comfort break, if everyone agrees, at the midway point at approximately 11 a.m., for five minutes and resume shortly thereafter.
On behalf of the committee, I am pleased to welcome the witnesses. From Alcohol Action Ireland, we have Dr. Sheila Gilheany, chief executive officer, Dr. Eoin Fogarty, consultant in emergency and retrieval medicine at University Hospital Cork and Alcohol Action Ireland board member, and Mr. Eóin Ryan, head of policy development and public affairs. From the Climate and Health Alliance, we have Dr. Sean Owens, chair; Dr. Caoimhe Clarke, consultant psychiatrist, psychiatry of old age at St. Vincent’s University Hospital; and Dr. John Legge, consultant in emergency medicine at St. Vincent’s University Hospital.
I remind witnesses of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of that person or entity. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside of the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. I now invite Dr. Gilheany to make her opening statement on behalf of Alcohol Action Ireland.
Dr. Sheila Gilheany:
Alcohol Action Ireland is the national independent advocate for reducing alcohol harm. We appreciate the opportunity to engage with the committee today on the issue of alcohol and road safety. As we all know, road deaths are rising in Ireland, reaching their highest level for over a decade in 2025. These tragic and devastating losses are not inevitable. Well-evidenced measures are available to address road safety issues. A key area to consider is the role of alcohol. Alcohol is a factor in at least a third of driver fatalities. In 2025, a survey by the Road Safety Authority, RSA, found that 12% of drivers admitted to drink driving in the past year. That 12% totals over 424,000 people. To put it another way, more than 1,100 per day are taking a lethal weapon onto our roads. That figure is also rising, up from 9% in 2021. Enforcement of the law can reverse this trend. The same RSA survey found that 75% of drivers think it unlikely they will be breathalysed, and they are right. Ireland has the lowest level of roadside breath testing in the EU. In 2021, just 18 tests per 1,000 inhabitants were carried out here. In France, that figure was 109, while the league was topped by Estonia, with a rate of 576 tests.
Another way of looking at the data is to consider arrests for drink driving. In 2007, there were 19,548 arrests but, for the past six years, arrests have plummeted to around 5,000 annually. This needs to change. In other countries, ambitious targets for breath testing are set. In Australia, for example, there is a target that every licensed driver should expect to be tested once annually. Most drivers in Ireland will say they have never been tested or, at most, have been tested once or twice in their lifetime. Publishing clear targets and assigning resources to ensure they are met is the most effective way of reducing alcohol-related deaths on our roads. In Australia, the level of driver fatalities with a positive alcohol test is 14%, compared with 35% in Ireland.
Prevention of drink driving is essential, but it is also important to consider what happens after the offence occurs. At present, 37% of drink driving court cases do not result in convictions. There must be a careful examination of the issues leading to this. In addition, we are aware that there are some cumbersome procedures that can result in offenders evading the law, particularly when it comes to the collection of blood samples from suspected drink drivers following a collision that results in hospitalisation. We propose that rather than having to wait for a Garda-appointed medical doctor, Ireland should introduce the Australian system whereby any emergency department doctor may take a sample and store it in a one-way safe to preserve the chain of evidence. We also propose that there should be an extension of the current three-hour window to take such samples. This is important particularly in rural areas where there can be a significant delay in bringing casualties to hospital. We also recommend that vehicles should be impounded at the time of a failed breath test, as is the case for uninsured vehicles.
We are also supportive of the introduction of the alcohol ignition interlock system, which is a personal alcohol breath-test device for drivers that automatically prevents a vehicle from starting if the individual is over the limit. We also strongly recommend that anyone arrested for drink driving should be facilitated to receive alcohol treatment, along with whatever penalties arise. This would require enhancement of service provision.
While it is perhaps beyond the scope of this committee, it is important to note that there is a real need for a cross-Government approach to road safety. For example, there is significant evidence that a 10% increase in alcohol prices is associated with a 7% reduction in road deaths.
Ireland's road safety record can be significantly improved by taking a number of very well-evidenced steps. We have a very ambitious Government target of reducing deaths on the roads to fewer than 72 deaths annually by 2030. Doing nothing about the major risk factor of alcohol is surely not an option if this target is to be achieved.
We are very happy to take any questions from the committee.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. Gilheany. I invite Dr. Owens and Dr. Clarke to make their opening statements on behalf of the Climate and Health Alliance.
Dr. Sean Owens:
I thank everyone for their time. I wear many hats. For the last few years, I have chaired the Climate and Health Alliance. I thank Mr. Will Andrews and Ms Joan Swift, and our friends from the Irish Doctors for the Environment. I also thank Dr. Legge and Dr. Clarke, who have taken the mornings off to give their testimonies.
The Climate and Health Alliance reflects what Irish healthcare feels about how the climate relates to health. Mine is a good role and I am happy with it. I am also a member of Irish Doctors for the Environment. Before my accident, I worked full-time as a GP between the towns of Castlebellingham and Blackrock, which are in County Louth. I will talk more on that shortly but the reason I am here is to talk about the accident. I do not have any conflicts of interest or financial relationships to declare - actually, I do not have any money at all, but that is fine - but the Garda investigation into my accident is ongoing, so I will refrain from answering any questions on that.
The bad news for all of us is that the Irish healthcare system has many problems. The population of Ireland is one of the most sedentary in the world. That means we like to sit on our backsides. The main outcome of the report, which I hope all members have after it was sent to them yesterday, is that that is a function of our built environment and is not a personal choice. Unfortunately, Irish healthcare likes to blame people and we are unfit, but we do not talk about commercial determinants of health. The main issue is that the population of Ireland is ageing faster than anywhere else in Europe. Another big issue is that the number of hospital beds here has remained static, which is bad news for all of us irrespective of insurance status. Any healthcare professional will know this, but the Irish population does not even know that these are issues because every year Eurostat compiles a report on self-reported good health and Ireland always tops the list. This shows that the Irish do not even know there are problems, and that is another issue.
I am married with two children. My wife is called Irene and my children are Harry and Austin. They are aged seven and nine years, and they helped me through a very difficult time last year. I would very much like for them to grow up in a world without a climate crisis but that is not realistic. I would like them to grow up in a world where it is safe for them to cycle their bikes but that is also not realistic, and that is the reason we are here today.
The reason I might sound a little drunk, and I might look a little drunk, is not because I have been drinking in either Mulligan's or Keogh's. It is because of an accident I had last year. As members can see, I am missing an ear on the right side of my head. I worked as a GP in the towns of Castlebellingham and Blackrock and I used to cycle everywhere. Cycling was not just a practical matter, as I lived close to work and cared about the environment and my own physical health. It was a matter of identity, I can cycle no longer. In January 2025, I was a victim of a hit-and-run accident. A car came up behind me and hit me. I have a very patchy recollection of that night. I cannot remember much but I do remember that people on the roadside came to help me. They saved my life. It was very Irish of me that I was going to go home, but I was convinced that I needed to go to hospital. When I was in hospital, it was discovered that I had a broken neck in three places and, obviously, I had lost my ear. Even more seriously, I developed a very serious bleed on my brain, one of my arteries had been severed and I had three strokes in my cerebellum. The cerebellum is the part of the brain that is responsible for eyesight, speech and balance, which is why I look a little drunk without having drank any pints at all.
That night, I was transferred from Drogheda to Beaumont Hospital where I had emergency decompression surgery. The outcome of that surgery is usually very good. The man who performed it was Professor Stephen McNally. My family and the healthcare professionals at Drogheda and Beaumont also saved my life, along with the paramedics on the roadside.
I had been on my way to a house call. I used to love house calls when I worked. Unfortunately, I never made it home. I went from Beaumont to Drogheda and from Drogheda to Dundalk, and then eventually to the National Rehabilitation Hospital on Rochestown Avenue in Dún Laoghaire. I eventually went home last September after a nine-month admission. It was a very difficult time.
The main issue for me now is that because of my balance and speech, I am not able to work, so I have had to leave my work as a GP. I know that lots of people need a healthcare professional and lots of vulnerable people need someone to advocate for them, but that is not my role in life any more.
My main issue is that I cannot run, jog or cycle any more. That is a function not just of deficits like my balance, but also of the fact that it is not very safe to cycle, which is an issue that we can all do something about.
The National Rehabilitation Hospital has not deemed me fit to work, and neither has my GP. As such, I have had no option but to leave the partnership I was a part of and I am no longer a GP. In fact, I am not sure what I am doing any more, as it all has yet to be determined.
I firmly believe that, in 2026, it is not safe to cycle in Ireland. That is a function of not just policy, as we have loads of policies, but of the implementation of policies. It is also a function of a lack of oversight of both the road safety system and speed limits.
The main issue that I have is that, last year, I missed out on not just a year of my kids growing up, but all their games, adventures and bedtimes. There is no algorithm or guidance on how to be a husband after eight months away. I left in January and came back in September. We are still figuring all of that out.
Every day I try to stay positive because that is the sort of person I am, but I have been left with a lot of deficits. The true cost of the roads system and oversight system is that no matter who you are, you can be struck at any time. I bring that up, but I try to remain positive even though I am not sure what the future holds.
The irony of the accident is that, a few weeks later, I was due to launch a report on behalf of the Climate and Health Alliance, which I think is the report that the committee members have in their hands. The report was meant to be launched in the building just behind them, the Mansion House. Obviously, that happened, but it was delayed by ten months. I want to talk more about that report because it is Irish healthcare's view on active travel.
I will now hand over to my friend and colleague, Dr. Clarke.
Dr. Caoimhe Clarke:
I thank the committee for giving us the opportunity to speak today.
As Dr. Owens has said, he is the chair of the Climate and Health Alliance and was entirely instrumental in gathering us all together, writing this report and getting it out even after his injuries.
The Climate and Health Alliance is a coalition of 36 health advocacy organisations across Ireland. It highlights the severe health risks of climate change while promoting the transformative health benefits of climate action. We provide a platform for health professionals to lead and advocate for urgent government policy shifts that prioritise well-being. In our report, Active Travel: The Magic Pill, we argue that transport policy is health policy. We are calling for a rapid transition to walking, cycling and wheeling to fundamentally improve societal health.
The cost of Ireland’s current transport culture is vastly underestimated economically and socially, and ultimately its cost to our health is too. Lack of sufficient physical activity is to blame for most chronic conditions, including diabetes, asthma and cardiovascular disease, which currently overwhelm our hospital system, resulting in unsustainable and ineffective levels of care. With just 2.9 beds per 1,000 population, well below the OECD average of 4.3, combined with Europe's fast-growing rates of over 65-year-olds, Ireland urgently needs to become a healthier country. Irrespective of our status on private health insurance, we all need a health service that works.
This is where physical activity comes in. There are many grey areas in climate and health advice such as whether screening a good use of our limited resources and whether we should fly abroad to see our loved ones, but whether we should be physically active is not a grey area. Whether we have an opportunity to engage in physical activity became the thrust of our report. Our levels of physical activity are typically seen as a personal choice but are largely shaped by the built environment and infrastructure around us, which is largely designed for car-based transport and facility-based exercise and is a result of whether we choose to enact existing policy. This means most people in Ireland cannot achieve the recommended daily amount of physical activity as roads and streets are too dangerous and hostile for walking, cycling, wheeling and play. We know 190 people were killed on our roads in 2025. This does not include the number of people seriously injured who required hospitalisation, which was about ten times higher, or of those less seriously injured, which was about ten times higher again. Many such injuries are life-changing, physically and mentally, yet we do not collect sufficient data on this or even consider it a public health issue. However, some limited data is available. For example, the estimated minimum cost of transport-related fractures, spinal cord injuries and traumatic brain injuries in 2024 is approximately €11.5 million. This excludes deaths, internal injuries, soft tissue injuries and the cost of rehabilitation and hospital aftercare. We know 22% of spinal cord Injuries in 2023 were caused directly by transport incidents. The number of people who have lost their lives cycling has doubled since 2021. We all pay for our dangerous roads, either via lost loved ones or lost opportunities for health.
Our report shows how transport policy is health policy. Regular walking, cycling and wheeling for transport saves the HSE millions of euro, takes thousands of cars off the road every day, promotes mental health, improves social cohesion, reduces air pollution, reduces greenhouse gas emissions and overall makes where we live more pleasant. We all too often fail to see and appreciate how much active travel and public transport gives to Ireland. This report was an effort to do that and the steps we need to take to realise our health, climate and societal goals. We are rich in policies and plans to promote sustainable mobility and active transport, yet the volume and speed of traffic on our roads remains a deterrent to walking, cycling, wheeling and play. Our climate action plan and sustainable mobility plan have been undermined by inconsistent implementation and planning decisions that favour car-centric sprawl. The dissonance between writing and implementing sustainable transport policy is stark. We lack sufficient public transport options which people can walk or cycle to and safe infrastructure for pedestrians, cyclists, wheelers and kids at play. That means wide footpaths, crossing points, segregated cycle lanes and low-speed traffic-calmed streets.
Local and national government has been reluctant to reorientate car driving and parking space away from private car use to give more space for public transport, walking, cycling and wheeling, despite the huge health, societal, climate and economic benefits of a more physically active, less car-dependant society. Investment in active and public transport is a public health necessity. It delivers benefits beyond financial return and offers just, equitable access to transport for all. A cohesive, integrated active and public transport system means reduced transport poverty from reduced car dependence for many households. A fully segregated cycle lane means people using wheelchairs or with other mobility difficulties can travel independently, which offers the dignity of freedom of movement. It allows safe access to physical activity, which reduces the risk of multiple chronic illnesses. It means children can cycle to school safely and can breathe cleaner air. Change is possible and has begun. Our report highlights positive examples of rebalancing resources away from personal car use. We know that in Ireland active travel already prevents serious long-term health conditions. It saved the HSE €64.5 million in Dublin alone in 2023. The fuel crisis has shown just how vulnerable our transport system is. The time to build a sustainable, connected, inclusive transport network is right now. Our report shows a way forward and is Irish health care's voice on the urgent need to act.
For years healthcare professionals and organisations have targeted individual behaviour change while ignoring the systemic causes underlying those behaviours. Transport policies have made car dependence and lack of sufficient physical activity the default and thereby locked us into behaviours that harm both personal and planetary health. We need a transport system that supports health, equity, and climate goals. This means better public transport integrated with walking, wheeling, cycling and, when needed, car use. This promotes physical activity in daily life while reducing emissions and congestion. It also means cost savings for households and the State and quieter streets with more space for walking, play, and nature. We must act urgently and decisively to reform the implementation of our transport policies in favour of more walking, cycling, wheeling and public transport use and away from private car use, to realise the immense health, environmental and economic benefits.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr.Clarke. I also thank Dr. Owens and Dr. Gilheany for their opening statements and for sharing both their professional and personal experience. I thank Dr. Owens in particular. His testimony highlights the personal, profound human impact of road trauma.
Before I go to the members for questions, today's work continues the committee's focus on road safety. This of course is against the backdrop of a continued increase in road fatalities. There were 190 lives lost last year and close to 60 lives have been lost so far this year, not to mention the many people seriously injured and dealing with devastating consequences. Of course, behind every statistic is a family and a community dealing with loss. I assure the witnesses that the committee intends to provide leadership in this area. Ideally we will identify concrete actions and make strong recommendations to Government and other relevant agencies. These will be recommendations that can be implemented in a timely manner.
I have to reflect on the opening statement from Alcohol Action Ireland. It is shocking to think 75% of drivers believe they are unlikely to be breathalysed. We have talked a lot at this committee about enforcement. We also talk about the use of technology but I am reminded of what Susan Gray of PARC said, which is that technology will catch somebody speeding but it will not catch a drunk driver. I did not know before I read the opening statement that Ireland carries out approximately 18 tests per 1,000 inhabitants and when that is benchmarked, the figure is 109 in France and in Estonia, which may be the leader, it is 576. The statement referenced the Australian models as well. I was struck that in 2007 there were 19,548 arrests, but in recent times there have been approximately 5,000 annually. We are really focused on the area of enforcement and the need to strengthen the number in roads policing, which is hovering at about 650. If we go back to 2010 when there were 1.5 million fewer licences issues there were more than 1,050 gardaí in roads policing.
I acknowledge the opening statements of Dr. Clarke and Dr. Owens, which highlighted the unsafe road conditions and the human consequences of road trauma and the need for safer active travel infrastructure. I speak a lot about low-cost safety improvement schemes as well. We just do not allocate enough resources to local authorities, which are always identifying areas that can be improved through that low-cost safety improvement scheme.
We allocated approximately €9 million this year but I do not think it is enough. We should be allocating significantly more than that.
I will now move on to members. We will give members seven minutes each. The first on the rota of those present is Deputy Daly. I will move to Deputy Currie after him.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank all the witnesses for their presentations. I will just ask a couple of questions of Dr. Gilheany. I was at her presentation in the audiovisual room a number of weeks ago and I found it very informative. I will follow on from some of the points comparing us to Australia and the fact that 14% of driver fatalities there have a positive toxicology for alcohol whereas here it is 35%. It is clear that we are way behind with breath tests. It is an interesting statistic that in 2007 there were 19,548 breath tests and now it is about a quarter of that. What is the reason for that? We know that the Garda road traffic units are down. There is anecdotal evidence that a lot of people are getting tested in the morning following a night out rather than at the time when a lot of accidents occur, between 11 p.m. and 3 a.m. We also know that the Crowe report, which came out about two years ago, said that a lot of roads policing gardaí were unproductive, disinterested and actively avoiding road safety duties, which may have to do with morale in the Garda.
Does Dr. Gilheany have any comment to make first, on the numbers; second, on when they are active; and third, whether the Garda has done anything to address the contents of the report? When we look at the amount of road testing that was taking place in 2007, we see that only a quarter of that is going on now. The background to this is that in the EU, road deaths are falling, whereas ours have increased and 190 people died last year. Would she care to comment on some of those points?
Dr. Sheila Gilheany:
As the Chair previously said, we clearly have fewer Garda resources on the road and that is a big issue. Alongside that, we do not publish clear targets. That is a recommendation of the European Transport Safety Council. It says that we need to publish a target and put the resources behind it. If we do not have a target, nobody knows whether it is good, bad or indifferent. We often see reports to the effect that 5,000 people were arrested for drink-driving. It is almost put forward in a way that this is good in the sense that we are doing something about it, but that 5,000 is a tiny proportion of the overall number of drink-drivers. Unless we put out a target and say what we are going to do to achieve it, we will get lost. We do not really recognise how important it is to keep up the level of breath testing.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Some people in Garda management say that it is not necessarily police effective, but we all know that the visibility of the Garda on the streets does reduce public order incidents. Likewise, visibility on the roads-----
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Is there a problem with the visibility of the Garda on the roads? Is there a problem with the number of personnel in the road traffic unit and are they going out at the wrong time? Are they concentrating on the early morning as opposed to the time when the majority of people are dying?
Dr. Sheila Gilheany:
Yes, there is definitely a problem with visibility. We simply must have more people on the road. Deputy Daly is quite right that when the Garda is out checking on drink-driving it has a knock-on effect on other areas as well. People are less likely to have other issues.
I will go back to the evidence on breath testing, which shows it is very important that we do breath testing at the times when it is most likely to be occurring. There is a policy at the moment where gardaí are required to spend a certain proportion of their daily time doing breath testing. That is useful but it is not sufficient. We certainly need to have more of a concentration on the times when drink-driving collisions are most likely to occur. While I welcome the visibility I have seen in the early morning, which plays a role as well, it is not sufficient.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Could I just ask Mr. Fogarty a question? I know he works in an emergency department.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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What does he see coming in compared to Australia where he also worked? What improvements could be made here?
Dr. Eoin Fogarty:
Yes, absolutely. It is hard. I have to talk to the children, siblings and parents of the poor unfortunate individuals who have been involved in these serious accidents. Very often head injuries or spinal injuries have been sustained, or people are deceased. These accidents are all completely preventable. Vision Zero can work if we put in the right resources. We need visibility from An Garda Síochána to be doing their testing. I got tested once 15 years ago. We must have a system in place to make sure people who are doing the bad thing get prosecuted in a timely manner so they are not able to go around in their lethal weapon for evermore.
What happened in Australia where I worked is that the emergency medicine doctor would just take the sample there and then from the suspected intoxicated driver. We would put it in a safe in the emergency room. We have essentially forgotten about it over here where there is a rather convoluted system whereby a different doctor has to come into the hospital to take the sample within three hours. That three-hour timeframe goes very quickly when there is a big bad accident by the time it is discovered, the fire service has extricated the patient and they are transported, especially when it is in rural Ireland where around 85% of the deaths are happening. We need proper enforcement and then we need a big deterrent.
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I am nearly out of time. There seems to be a question mark over the Garda figures for the number of serious injuries and the hospital data stating that 11,200 were hospitalised. Is there a sufficiency of data coming into the Garda system about the number of injuries that are taking place on the roads?
Pa Daly (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank all the witnesses for coming in today. I find the Alcohol Action Ireland figures appalling and truly shocking. Both of the witnesses have said that losses are not inevitable and that this can be addressed. The fact is that a third of all driver fatalities are positive for alcohol and that 12% admit to drink-driving. That statistic is going in the wrong direction, just like our road deaths, which are up 9% from a couple of years ago.
The number of gardaí on the roads is a damning reflection of how thinly stretched road policing has become. We know that if people think they are going to get caught, they are not going to do it. We see that played out in the statistics. We are seeing slippage in terms of bad behaviour on our roads.
I want to ask the witnesses what they think about the Garda numbers. It is currently 645, so they have dropped again this month. Do they believe we need to take action, such as to have a second Garda training college, to get the Garda numbers where they need to be?
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Does anybody else want to come in?
Mr. Eoin Ryan:
On that, in relation to the report we produced a couple of weeks ago with regard to alcohol and road safety in response to the Crowe report, the Garda organisations themselves, namely, the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI, and Garda Representative Association, GRA, both pointed to a resourcing problem and administrative burdens in terms of dealing with the paperwork in relation to the work they are doing. All the data points to the fact that they are being asked to do more with less. There are other points in that report we have made in relation to investigation into the low-level drink driving convictions. Courts Service data shows that around 37% of drink driving cases are dismissed. That would inevitably have an impact on morale. As the Garda is trying to do more with less, it is also seeing what it is doing coming up against problems that need to be investigated and the reasons there is such a high level of case dismissals. However, the gardaí themselves point to resourcing being a significant issue.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Ryan is talking about resources but he is also talking about the efficiency of the system. We are looking for insights across the board here. It is quite clear that the status quo in relation to road safety is not acceptable. Some 37% of court cases do not result in convictions. Again, it is a shocking number. Do any of the witnesses have anything to add? Does Dr. Clarke wish to come in?
Dr. Caoimhe Clarke:
I was actually going to jump in as a bit of an aside on the long-term consequences. As psychiatrists, we know there are a lot of neuropsychiatric complexities and comorbidities associated with acquired brain injuries and the consequences of these serious accidents on our roads. Again, I am coming back to future-proofing - a resilient healthcare system and future-proofing a healthy society. We are talking about one piece here, which is incredibly important, about keeping our roads safe and getting the resources of policing on the roads. I suppose where I am coming from then is the other side of that; the longer-term side effects we are going to see of these people who have been injured and end up with a lot of complex needs and who need a healthcare system that is already under strain after that. It does come back to the resourcing, as Alcohol Action Ireland is saying, to prevent what is happening on the roads.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Does anybody else want to speak to Garda resources in general or road policing? No.
I am interested in the witnesses' recommendation around a Garda appointed medical doctor versus someone being at the scene who can take that on. Where is the resistance on that coming from?
Dr. Eoin Fogarty:
That is my department, really. There is a historical fear that someone does not want to be the prosecuting doctor person and also the treating physician whereby the patient will then feel uncomfortable. When I worked in Australia for a good two and a half years, it was routine. Any of my colleagues, who worked in Australia, I have been speaking to about this are very supportive of the idea because we know that prevention is infinitely better than looking after the brain injury or spinal injury later on. It makes infinite sense. It does not take us a long period of time to take the sample there and then as opposed to the Garda very often having to find the local GP, who could be looking after ten or 20 patients in his or her waiting room, to come and take the sample and then give it back to the Garda. In Australia, there was no need to have the police member present which, again, just freed up resources for the police. In addition, I would see very often that the gardaí would be stressed. They know they have a three-hour window to get the sample. That three-hour window is very often challenged in court as to what time the offence actually happened and what time it was actually discovered. We have seen plenty of high-profile cases being dismissed because there is a query around the time of the person last being seen driving. Therefore, I would be very much in favour of the doctor or nurse in the emergency department who has the patient in front of them to take the sample, label it and put it into a locked safe in the emergency room so that the chain of evidence is preserved. Simple things like that just stop the nonsense in our judicial system of clear-cut cases being thrown out.
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Does it feel sometimes that the system is working against people?
Emer Currie (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Why does Dr. Fogarty-----
Dr. Eoin Fogarty:
I will make one other point. About one third of deaths are related to alcohol and it is getting worse. We do not actually know how much worse it has gotten because the last data that the Road Safety Authority, RSA, can stand over go back to 2021. We know attitudes have gotten worse. We do not actually have the official number of deaths from alcohol on our roads in the past couple of years.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Currie. I call Deputy Moynihan.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the witnesses very much for coming in and sharing their experiences. I will go to Alcohol Action Ireland first with some technical questions I have, if that is all right. In terms of that three-hour gap, is it a legislative issue or an operational issue that a Garda appointed medical doctor has to be there?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the person who oversees and supervises the taking of that sample, however, Alcohol Action Ireland's submission stated that has to be a Garda appointed medical doctor. Is that grounded in legislation or is that an operational choice?
Mr. Eoin Ryan:
I believe it is in section 14 of the Road Traffic Act 2010 but I will come back to the Deputy with that in writing. That is for the Garda appointed doctor. Then, for the time window, it is section 5 of the Road Traffic Act 2010. However, I will get the Deputy both of those in writing confirming that.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of that choice of doctor, it is not an operational policy shift. I am just trying to get clarity on what would need to be done and what a recommendation would have to look like, Chair, for us to get that changed. That would have to be a change of legislation to get that changed. That is grand.
Moving then to the drop, one of the numbers that jumped out at me from the witnesses' submission was the number of arrests in 2007 and then the huge drop to 5,000 at the moment. When we look at that data series over time, is there a cliff edge or is it just consistent falling or is there a point where we say that is actually where we just marked a really rapid fall?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Dr. Gilheany. I will go to the Climate and Health Alliance in that case. I cycle into Leinster House when I can; I cycled here this morning. I would say it is the first morning in about a year and a half where I nearly got knocked down twice. This is, therefore, quite resonant and in terms of Dr. Ownes's story as well. The high visibility clothing argument is fine but the other part of this then is driver education and driver awareness. In both cases, they were both novice drivers on their own who had nobody in the car with them. There is an issue there in and of itself. What recommendations does Dr. Owens have in terms of how we could articulate that gap at the moment? I could have 15 lights hanging out of me and three high visibility jackets and the whole lot but if someone is not paying attention to the conduct of their vehicle, that is going to be a danger. What sort of recommendations would Dr. Owens have on the driver side of this? I take all the points about infrastructure. That is obviously a more medium-term solution because it will take time to build that but in terms of driver behaviour, does Dr. Owens have any recommendations in that vein?
Dr. Sean Owens:
I thank the Deputy for his question. I was always decked out in lights, a helmet and high visibility and all that. It does not matter. The recommendations we have kind of surprise me. I thought we needed better education. That is part of it but as a healthcare professional, we are duty bound. Dr. Fogarty knows this and we all know this. We have to be evidence-based first and foremost. The evidence base comes with four recommendations. We need better governance and oversight. We need a system that sees health in all policies. If we want to this to come together, we have to build a society, as Dr. Clarke said, that allows health to flourish. We need healthcare solutions. That is where I come in. I want to provide health advice. Our advice is bi-directional. I want people like the RCSI and ICGP to get behind active travel and understand that we need to enact this. It is not a wish list. For a functioning society, we need hospitals that work.
Resources is the other thing the Deputy mentioned. We need more money for active travel to actually happen and we need better planning laws that have health in all policies. All these houses that are built are too far away from each other. We need higher density housing.
They are the parts that surprise me. We came up with four recommendations. I thank the Deputy for his question. On the issue with road safety my colleague Dr. Legge knows more about that.
Dr. John Legge:
In terms of trying to minimise the impact of these incidents, the evidence is not there that high-vis jackets or anything like that is going to make much of an impact. It just is not there so we cannot really stand behind it. We need to minimise the likelihood of a collision and that is where infrastructure comes into it. Infrastructure is very important. It is difficult and it is expensive but it is the most important thing we can do to make roads safer. We also need to minimise the consequence when a collision happens. This means that we reduce the speed. The data is very clear that there is a huge difference in survival outcomes and injury outcomes between a collision at 50 km/h and one at 30 km/h. Those are things that need to be looked at.
In terms of education for drivers, I am not sure-----
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Is Dr. Legge saying there is no evidence base that exists that suggests that such intervention works?
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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Ineffective.
Shane Moynihan (Dublin Mid West, Fianna Fail)
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In terms of the driving test, is there any body of work that has been done on how driving tests have been changed in countries around the world where they reward or incentivise more road user awareness on the part of drivers?
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Good morning everyone and thanks for the submissions and the speeches this morning. I will start with Alcohol Action Ireland. The statistics it has presented to us today are really shocking, particularly the low number of breath tests that are taking place annually, at 18 per thousand, compared with other European member states, and that this figure has decreased over a 15-year period. Having worked in this area for many years, and from its analysis, will the witnesses from Alcohol Action Ireland give us their views as to why we are seeing this really significant fall in the number of breath tests taking place on our roads?
Dr. Sheila Gilheany:
It does come back to enforcement and resources. If there are not sufficient gardaí on the roads, breath testing will not be carried out. We see that alcohol is very normalised in Ireland. We see that binge drinking is very normalised. Everybody in the medical field knows what an emergency department is like on a Saturday evening and how much of it is dominated by alcohol. It is not surprising that this follows through into all sorts of areas. It follows through into enforcement. If we are looking at other areas of alcohol, we have high numbers of underage drinking going on here but we very rarely see prosecutions for the sale of alcohol to under-18s. It is things like this that show an acceptability about alcohol.
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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I will follow up on that point. The level of resources is obviously key and I think we all accept that. Everyone in the Government and the Opposition shares the view that we need more gardaí on our roads, on our streets and everywhere but the issue of enforcement goes beyond that. I read the Crowe report recently looking specifically at roads policing. It was quite alarming in terms of some of the attitudes. I want to be very clear that I recognise this is not across the entirety of An Garda Síochána. Would the witnesses think that perhaps part of the reason for the low numbers of breath tests is to do with attitudes to the issue of driving with alcohol, including attitudes among some members of An Garda Síochána?
Dr. Sheila Gilheany:
I do not have an insight into what the Garda is saying other than what is reported. We are very fact-based and just present the evidence. I can say, however, that if targets are not published and if we do not say "This is what we are going to do" then there is no drive to make sure that we will do it. Gardaí are faced with competing demands on their time and I absolutely understand that but this is why I go back to the fact that we must have a target. If we do not have a target, why would people go out of their way to do it?
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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One of the questions I have asked most of the people who presented to this committee is about their views on the Road Safety Authority. The witnesses have emphasised the importance for that cross-governmental approach. I suppose the Road Safety Authority is seen very much as central to that. There was a proposal about 18 months ago stemming from an Indecon report to do a radical restructuring of the Road Safety Authority. That was greenlit by the previous Government and it has been stopped by the current Minister. What is Dr. Gilheany's view on the effectiveness right now of the Road Safety Authority? Would Alcohol Action Ireland support the case for significant reform of how it operates?
Dr. Sheila Gilheany:
There are really good people working in the RSA. They are working in a difficult environment. What we are seeing right now is a problem of Garda resources. That is a Department of justice issue. It is my understanding that the RSA has no control over how resources are deployed and yet I think they are seen as being the people who have to carry the can for the problems we are seeing on our roads. Whatever structure is in place has to have the ability to be able to direct resources. Going back to the cross-governmental issue, we are also seeing the impacts on the health service but the health service is not having an input into where resources should go.
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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On that point I put the same question to the Climate and Health Alliance in terms of the effectiveness of the RSA and whether there is a need for radical reform there.
Dr. Caoimhe Clarke:
I agree with my colleagues here that the RSA is doing really good work and that, as everyone brings to the table, it is under resourced. I believe we need a road safety commissioner. It does not make sense that we have the Road Safety Authority with two arms, one looking after licensing, giving out licences and putting people on the road, and then the other arm is supposed to be protecting vulnerable road users, pedestrians, cyclists and everyone else.
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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They are two completely different-----
Dr. Caoimhe Clarke:
It does not make sense. It is a conflict of interest and that is not working. We are proving it is not working. Our deaths were 190 last year. There needs to be a road safety commissioner. I work in mental health. We have a Minister of State with responsibility for mental health. We have a commissioner of mental health because there are nuances with these types of complexities. We need a road safety commissioner.
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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Dr. Owens spoke about Ireland being overly sedentary as a country and the need to get moving. Deputy Moynihan touched upon the area of the provision of safe cycling infrastructure. Are we building cycle lanes quickly enough in this country?
Dr. John Legge:
No. The case for active travel is being made. Members may recall the daily mile initiative that was started in Stirling in Scotland with schoolchildren. They had to walk or run for 15 minutes every morning. Their behaviour improved, their cognition improved and their concentration improved. The evidence is there and it is not a mystery. In this country, however, 3% of our children cycle to school and that is the consequence of our infrastructure. My kids live 800 m from our school, and while for the first 400 m to the school there is a cycle lane, there is no cycle lane for the next 400 m. They do not cycle as a consequence.
Roderic O'Gorman (Dublin West, Green Party)
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What does Dr. Legge see as the barriers to the roll out of that safe cycling infrastructure?
Dr. Caoimhe Clarke:
The Chair mentioned earlier that there is some really good work being done nationally when it comes to segregated cycle lanes but as Dr. Legge has said they need to be integrated, they need to be high quality, they need to be accessible and convenient, but they need to be funded. Local authorities are waving their arms and saying they want to do this but they are not being funded properly. I think there is an issue with our dependency veering towards cars. We are the second most car-dependent country in the EU. There is a piece of work to be done around that. I am a firm believer of build and they will come. If we are building something that is accessible, that people can use and which is connected, it will be used. Sometimes the statistics look skewed, and 3% of people are cycling because they are people who are going to take on the roads. I cycle. I have a lovely route. I am going to use the word "greenway" because it is a greenway on the Royal Canal from the northside of the city over to the southside. That is my commute route but parts of it are not connected.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in and for the report on the evidence-based action for active travel being the magic pill.
I will start with Dr. Fogarty. It is shocking that one third of fatalities are alcohol related but more than one third of people who are arrested are not convicted. I want Dr. Fogarty's opinion on this. Is that down to post sampling, as we spoke about? That is a huge number of people who are getting away it, basically. Will he talk a bit more about that?
Dr. Eoin Fogarty:
As the Senator says, better resources is key. There are also challenges with getting the sample in the big, bad accidents. Garda resources would be the key initially to have high visibility enforcement on our roads. We are the worst country in Europe, as we said, and we will only get worse if that trajectory continues. Our road deaths are going up while the rest of the world's are going down. Garda resourcing is the first ask.
Legislative change is needed to mimic what is happening in other jurisdictions with lower death rates. In the UK, there is a reasonable timeframe to get the sample. That can mean an hour or two or it can mean seven or eight hours plus. We have seen examples of this previously in the UK where people have been convicted hours and hours after the three hour limit we have here. A lot of the time, that timeframe is not practical, unless someone actually witnesses the accident and is looking at their watch to say that accident happened at 2.34 a.m. I presented this previously at the AGSI conference and gardaí voted in favour of extending the timeframe they have to get the sample. That would make a big difference for the big, bad accident that ends up in hospital but most do not.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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That would come in when the proceedings go through in court.
Mr. Eoin Ryan:
On the Senator's point, we have called for an investigation into the low levels of convictions. When we look at England and Wales, we see conviction rates of more than 90%. For Ireland, conviction rates are in the low 60% range. We cannot put our finger on what the issues are but we think there is a necessity for that to be investigated.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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I thank Mr. Ryan and our witnesses. I completely agree that there needs to be a commissioner because as Dr. Clarke said in her opening statement, it is not just a transport issue, it is a health issue, a climate issue and an education issue when talking about transport policy. I completely agree with her. Bad design is causing a lot of issues. I would like to talk a bit more about that and why we do not have mandatory 30 km speed limits in urban settings.
I live in a rural constituency. Why is there not availability of additional public transport? Why do we have electric buses that have no batteries and are stuck in storage? You could go on and on about the flaws within the availability of alternative public transport and about enforcement. There is a reluctance to say speed kills and the impact the size of SUVs has in comparison to standard cars. I would love to hear a bit more information about that.
Dr. Caoimhe Clarke:
I agree with all of the Senator's points and that would be our opinion a well. We share that. From the health perspective, it comes back to us looking at the built and natural environment around us. The health consequences are not an individual choice because people are physically inactive in Ireland - it is by design. We do not have the safe roads. We do not have the segregated cycle paths. We do not have the wide, comfortable footpaths.
At the moment, we know one in four children cannot run properly. We know one in four children are overweight or obese. One in six adults are not physically active enough. We have a really high number of individuals nationally ever year who get a diagnosis of diabetes which is 8,793. We are spending 10% of health service money treating diabetes, which is a complex and multisystem disease. We are ahead of EU and global averages on that and it is all because of the sedentary lifestyle. Once again, this is not about individually blaming people. It is because of the transport facilities and network around us all. We are not able to be physically active to access it safely.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Yet they are treated like standard cars in relation to speed and the 30 km limit.
Dr. John Legge:
Of course. Once you are struck, you are knocked in front of it and it can roll over you as well. so you can be struck twice. A total of 20% of collisions in Europe involved an SUV. If we were to remove SUVs from the roads, our mortality rate would drop by about 8%. It is consumer choice and personal choice and that is fine. If we are going to have people driving these vehicles, we need to also create a safe infrastructure for everyone else to use the roads as well.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Yes. We are all sharing the space on roads. It is not the car's kingdom.
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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What about the reluctance of the Government to row back on the 30 km zones in urban areas?
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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It would have been across the board that it would mandatory within built up urban areas-----
Dr. Caoimhe Clarke:
I might just jump in there. There is so much evidence out there showing that 30 km speed limit zones work. It has been done in multiple European countries and cities; Amsterdam, Barcelona and Wales. It is everywhere in the UK. They know it is effective, we have evidence and it is saving lives. It is a real missed opportunity for health-----
Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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That comes down to enforcement again. Even if the signage is there, there are just not enough cameras on the road. It is about road policing.
Dr. Caoimhe Clarke:
It is about road policing but it is also about design. There are lots of structural things that can be done. I am not an engineer but there are modal filters and gentle paving. If you go to some of the towns in the Netherlands, some of the stuff they are doing out there is really good. I live in Dublin and there are plant boxes. You make narrow streets to slow cars down.
Dr. John Legge:
It actually makes the place you live nicer as well. The results from the 40 European cities that have done this show 23% fewer collisions, 37% fewer fatalities, 38% fewer injuries, reduced noise pollution and 7% less fuel consumption. The impact on the journey time is negligible at about 3% to 5%.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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For my own window of questioning, I will come back to the who is in charge question that Deputy O'Gorman touched on as well. Who is co-ordinating action and who is demanding action? I note Dr. Clarke's comments on the appointment of a road safety commissioner. That is something we have discussed in previous hearings and it is something the committee will consider. The committee will definitely reflect on reform of the blood sample collection procedure after collisions. That is something we will definitely look at closely.
I will reflect on the Garda campaign during the month of December which ran into the first week of January. I cannot remember exactly, but I know approximately 24,000 fixed penalty notices were issued for speeding. There were approximately 750 arrested for either drink or drug driving. There were 3,000 vehicles impounded, 65% of which did not have insurance, but a number were impounded for other reasons as well.
I will deal with the impounding of vehicles. I am not quite clear myself and I want to be educated. If I do not have insurance, my vehicle is immediately impounded on the side of the road. The committee will also consider something I am looking at and engaging with the Minister on; the release fee is €100 for an impounded vehicle and it probably goes back to the 1990s. I have seen individuals collecting impounded vehicles, arriving with a transporter and taking away the vehicle on the back of a transporter after paying the €100. When they go a mile down the road, the vehicle comes off the transport. We need a review of that €100 fee anyway. After an arrest for drink driving, is the vehicle not impounded? Will Dr. Fogarty clarify that for me?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I was not aware of that. It is again no different to the reform of blood sample collection procedures after collisions. We will obviously reflect on that as well.
I want to try to cover areas that have not been covered such as alcohol ignition interlock systems. I have looked into this. A number of other countries in the European Union do this as do a number of states in the US, in particular for drivers who have previously been disqualified. Will Dr. Gilheany speak a little to this?
Dr. Sheila Gilheany:
We are in favour of this. The basic idea is that for somebody convicted of drink-driving, and different places apply it differently, there can sometimes be choice between a longer period of disqualification or a shorter period of disqualification linked to this device being fitted.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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To be clear, is it Alcohol Action Ireland's call for it to be fitted on all vehicles or just on vehicles linked to those who are convicted of drink-driving? Will Dr. Gilheany explain how this technology works and who would be responsible for the calibration of the equipment?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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It is due to appear before the committee next week.
Dr. Sheila Gilheany:
It does calibration of other instrumentation so I assume it would follow into this. There is European-wide legislation that essentially states new cars being built must have the type of technology that would allow these sorts of devices to be fitted. They are already in use on a voluntary basis. Some companies in Ireland have their fleets of vehicles fitted with this device. Matthews Coaches is one that does it. There is certainly a case to be made to encourage the voluntary use of these devices, perhaps linked in some kind of way to reduced insurance costs. We had a discussion with the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, about this yesterday. It makes a certain degree of sense, in the same way that we have reduced insurance for young drivers who have a delimiter fitted to a car so they cannot go above a certain speed. There is value in looking at this. We could get into the way of it. We put on our seatbelts when we get into a car and perhaps we could reach a point when it would always be the case that people would blow into a breathalyser to see whether they were clear to go. I favour of this voluntary way of doing it. We also propose for people who are convicted of drink-driving that such a device could be fitted and that people would have to demonstrate that they were not over the limit.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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This is interesting and something the committee will consider. I want to come back to my opening remarks about who is in charge. Something we are reflecting on a lot is the extent to which road safety intersects with so many Departments, including transport, justice, health, and housing and local government in the context of active travel and low-cost safety improvement schemes. We also have An Garda Síochána, local authorities, NGOs and State agencies, including the RSA. Dr. Gilheany said the RSA is doing a good job. Does she think it is in charge and that there is good co-ordination? Does she feel there is a gap where we need somebody leading on it, such as a road safety commissioner who would demand and co-ordinate action?
Dr. Sheila Gilheany:
Whoever is in charge has to have the authority to be able to achieve results. The RSA says all of the correct things and presents the evidence but if it does not have the power, or whoever is there does not have the power, to be able to direct resources to achieve targets it is pointless.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Who does Dr. Gilheany think is in charge? Is it the Minister?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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On the enforcement side.
Dr. Sheila Gilheany:
The Minister for justice is in charge of the Garda. The Minister for Transport is not in charge of this and I can see an issue there. I will come back to another issue regarding the Department of justice. It is under a lot of pressure to increase licensing hours yet we know that even a one-hour increase in licensing hours is linked to a 30% increase in collisions in rural areas. We can see that one Department has to look after Garda resources and gets pressure to increase the sale of alcohol. We also have the Department of Transport, which has to say we need to reduce the number of road deaths. This needs a whole-of-government approach. We need a government that states this is the target and how we are going to reach it and here are the individuals who are responsible for their sectors.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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In terms of other European countries, we have mentioned the volume of breath tests carried out in France and Estonia per 1,000 inhabitants. Are there examples of countries around the world where individuals other than members of the police force are approved to do roadside breath testing?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Do the witnesses see any opportunity in this, in terms of addressing Garda numbers and strengthening our roads policing unit?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I understand that; I am talking about roadside testing. It is not something the witnesses have considered or reflected on.
I spent many years at local level and I consider myself a real champion of active travel, particularly low-cost safety improvement schemes. This is something the committee will focus on to make a recommendation on the co-ordination of these schemes and factoring in road safety strategies. Do the witnesses have any views on speed cushions and speed ramps? There is such inconsistency around the country in what local authorities allow. The policy of Tipperary County Council is completely different from that in neighbouring counties. In terms of infrastructure, do the witnesses have a view on the use of speed cushions and speed ramps in urban settings?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Some local authorities consider them infrastructure of a last resort.
Dr. Caoimhe Clarke:
I am not 100% sure but I will give my personal opinion. I sit on the Dublin City Council mobility strategic policy committee and we have had discussions about the type of infrastructure that works. We need ways to bring down the speed to 30 km/h. Usually it is done environmentally, such as using narrow streets or speed bumps. We have to take into account people with other mobility issues or disability issues who have to navigate the streets as well. My opinion is that we need to get the speed down to 30 km/h in all of these urban settings. The engineers might know more specifically about design.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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With regard to active travel, I stand to be corrected but between now and 2030, under the review of the national development plan there will be €326 million annually each year to 2030. Rightly or wrongly, we focus too much on greenways and it is all based on kilometres. I have tried to champion a number of projects that were not successful. I have always felt this was because they were not long. Do the witnesses have any views on this? The authorities involved are the NTA and TII.
Dr. Caoimhe Clarke:
The €360 million the Government has ring-fenced is not enough with inflation; it should be €500 million. Dr. Legge can also come in on this. Another element is that greenways are fantastic but everything needs to be linked. It is great to have a greenway, and I have a greenway, but when we get off a greenway, we need to be able to get onto another safe segregated cycle path. It is also about a multimodal journey approach. People might walk to the bus and then cycle a bit or drive their car to the train station and take the rest of the journey by train. It all requires funding for connecting all of these systems together.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I have mentioned repeatedly low-cost safety improvements. Does the Climate and Health Alliance focus on active travel? Is it familiar with the low-cost safety improvement schemes? Does it champion them as an organisation?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I suggest we take a break for ten minutes at 11 a.m. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Dr. John Legge:
The point on reducing speed is important because it is a basic determinant of whether a walk-away is innocent but we also need more speed cameras.
It would take a huge amount of activity away from the Garda if it were all automated, rather than having a mobile speed van that may or may not be at a location on any given day. There are static cameras on many roads and people know not to speed on them. We need to consider a massive uplift regarding speed cameras.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Does everyone want to take a break or will we continue? I do not envisage us continuing for the full amount of time. Since everyone is happy to continue, we will hear from Senator Collins. There is no time restriction if there are additional questions.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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I am not going to take long. Going last, everything has been asked and answered. I agree with the 75% who believe they will not be breathalysed. I am one of those 75% because I have never been breathalysed and I have driven on many roads at all hours during the day and night. The last time I saw a checkpoint was probably during the Covid pandemic. The last time I was ever stopped by the Garda was just to ask me where I was going. I have never been questioned. The visibility definitely is not there. I do not know what it is like in Dublin city or Cork city. I live in rural County Limerick and I have never seen any checkpoints and have never been breathalysed, so I can completely understand that statistic.
My focus is definitely visibility. This is a huge issue. The speed cameras are a very good idea. I see that people slow down where there are speed cameras. The speed vans are always in the same places and everybody knows where they are. Most people I know are in WhatsApp groups where they are told where the vans are, so they slow down for the speed van and then speed up again. The speed vans and the cameras are great but they are not going to catch somebody who is drink driving or somebody who is on a mobile phone. Speed is one thing, but what is happening in addition to speeding is another.
As was said, about 85% of fatalities happen on rural roads. A considerable investment needs to be made in rural Ireland to ensure it is safe. You are never going to see a bicycle lane on a rural road, nor are you going to see wider margins or footpaths. There are schools in County Limerick that do not even have footpaths leading to them. They do not have the speed ramps and pedestrian crossings I have been advocating. They still do not have them because they require funding. If the council does not have the funding, it often comes from councillors' general municipal allocations. When there are so many schools and the money has to be spread across all of them, you must effectively choose which school is more important. It is quite sad to see.
I have one question, concerning the three-hour rule, and Dr. Fogarty might be able to answer it. Is there a medical reason the period has to be three hours?
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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So, there is no medical reason it has to be three hours.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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As quick as possible.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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There is no time limit.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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Definitely. It is awful to see a case being thrown out on a technicality, or to see somebody who has caused life-changing injuries or death walk away and get into a car because of a technicality.
Dr. Eoin Fogarty:
Solicitors openly advertise that they will challenge every case. They do so because the penalties are the same regardless of whether one pleads guilty, so why would one not challenge the case? There may be some discrepancy in somebody's notes regarding exact times. The extension of the limit is one simple measure that the Garda is very much in support of, as reflected in its recent vote at the conference of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors. We need to extend the limit.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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One hundred percent. When one thinks of the amount of work gardaí are putting in to catch offenders, obtain the samples and do all the paperwork, it is very disheartening to see an offender walk away after fighting a case in court. It is disheartening for everybody involved, including the victims, families, personnel and gardaí. A whole lot of work is put in for nothing at the end, and the person is handed the keys back and allowed to get back into the car.
The other point, which I am not 100% sure about, is that surrendering a driving licence is voluntary. I could be wrong. I am not necessarily referring to drink driving but to where somebody has been suspended from driving. I believe surrendering is voluntary in a huge percentage of cases. Am I right in saying that?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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There are issues in terms of how we capture our data on the surrendering of licences in court.
Joanne Collins (Sinn Fein)
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People get the option to surrender their licences voluntarily. This is crazy because somebody who has done wrong is given the option voluntarily to hand over what is often his or her mode of transport. It does not seem right. There seems to be a disconnect between the rules and the legislation and the actual issue we have on the ground.
There is a Private Members' motion in the Seanad this evening on An Garda Síochána. Not once does it call for more roads policing. It is not mentioned once in the entire motion. As a member of the transport committee and having seen the amount of work we have done with many different groups on road safety, I believe there is a definite disconnect between what we need and what we are actually offering. A huge amount of work needs to be done here. I have seen some tragedies and I know many front-line workers, including firefighters, and what they go through daily. It affects so many lives. To see the numbers going up instead of coming down is so disheartening, because we were doing so well.
Education, including education in schools from an early stage, is not everything but it needs to be part of the response. Before my daughter started driving, she was a pedestrian. She would walk out onto the road at a pedestrian crossing on the basis that she was allowed to. She would not even look to see if there was a car coming. When she started driving, she said to me she would never do that again and that she now understood there is so much going on in a car that a driver does not always see everything. She said that if she is looking to the left, she will not see everything on the right-hand side. I said that she then understood how careful you have to be in a car. You have to reduce your speed and see everything going on around you. There is a huge need for education for everybody. Everybody should have to walk a mile in the other person's shoes and understand what it is like to see everything going on from a car but also understand what it is like to be somebody walking or cycling who does not expect a car to be going at a certain speed. That is a big issue.
My time is up. I have waffled for the whole slot. Every question I had was answered. I thank the witnesses so very much for coming in. It has been an eye-opener to see all the different sides of road safety. It is not just about fatalities; it is also about the injuries, including the life-altering injuries, that we do not hear about. All we hear in the news is that there has been a fatal car accident. There is a huge amount more to this than that. I thank all the witnesses so much.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Before I wrap up, I have a question. I will start with Dr. Fogarty and, appropriately, give the last word to Dr. Owens. What is the number one ask in terms of a recommendation from this committee? It is fine if some of the witnesses have the same number one ask.
Dr. Eoin Fogarty:
What I would like addressed, because I see it happening in front of me, is people escaping justice because of the three-hour rule. It is simple, low-hanging fruit. We can stop perpetrators getting away and send out a message that they cannot escape justice. That would be my recommendation, purely because I see people escaping justice in front of me.
I am aware that roads policing is a really big issue, but what I am seeing in front of me is people escaping justice. Roads policing requires a lot of effort, as does the appointment of hundreds more gardaí, but a simple, timely thing that could be done would be to change the three-hour limit to a 12-hour limit.
Dr. Sheila Gilheany:
I would like to see coherent policy right across government so that one Department is not acting in a way that would make the situation worse. We should not increase licensing hours because that will increase road fatalities. We need coherent Government policy that encompasses prevention through measures such as better Garda resources but also ensures we do not have a Department acting against those measures.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Would Dr. Gilheany support the establishment of a commissioner for road safety with legislative powers?
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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That is fine.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. Ryan.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Five hundred million euro per year.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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Delivery, yes.
Dr. John Legge:
I would support having a road safety commissioner who has the mandate, authority and funding to effect change. We have targets. We need to have accountability because we are missing those targets. By 2030, the target is to halve our road deaths from 2019, which would mean having 72 road deaths. We are on track to hit 240-plus.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I will leave the final word to Dr. Owens.
Dr. Sean Owens:
I thank the Cathaoirleach for the points he made about the RSA and Deputy O'Gorman for his questions about the RSA. In healthcare parlance, you would never say, "That lump is very suspicious; we need to take it out." That is what happened with the RSA, however. Eamon Ryan, before he left office, said it needed to be overhauled but then, all of sudden, it was decided that, no, it is okay. The RSA needs to be overhauled, I am afraid. I suppose blame for the accident does not really help.
We do not have a very safe country for cycling. It starts with oversight and governance. I agree that money will be needed.
One question that would need to be asked of the RSA, and it has already been said, is "Why?" One thing we learned from the report authored by my colleagues Will Andrews and Joan Swift, who are here, is that statistics are very hard to find. Some of the statistics are four or five years old. We need a contemporaneous Road Safety Authority that works. The one we have does not work.
Michael Murphy (Tipperary South, Fine Gael)
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I thank Dr. Owens. I appreciate the contributions of all our witnesses. We have not has as many doctors in one session since I became Chair. I also thank the medical personnel present for the work they do on the front line. Obviously, they have taken time from the front line today as well. I thank them in particular for their advocacy through both organisations.
To reflect on my notes, the recommendations the committee will make will include setting ambitious national roadside breath targets; strengthening the roads policing unit, which we discussed at length; reform of the blood sample collection procedures after collisions; and the impounding of vehicles after failed breath tests. I am interested in the whole area of alcohol ignition interlock systems. Something we did not talk about, but which was in Alcohol Action Ireland's opening statement, is treatment services for offenders. That is something we will have to look at as well. Given the target of having fewer than 70 road deaths by 2030, reducing alcohol-related harm is essential.
In terms of the Climate and Health Alliance, it is clear that Ireland is not a safe place for cycling. Lack of safe, connected cycling infrastructure is a major challenge. There is speeding and mobile phone distraction and, obviously, in terms of Dr. Owen's evidence, the impact extends far beyond fatalities to personal trauma, family trauma, loss of employment, long-term disability and mental health impacts. Safer infrastructure is the big message and then investment and delivery.
I thank all the witnesses. The insights they shared today have been beneficial and will assist the committee in its ongoing work, which is coming into its final phase. We hope the assistant commissioner of An Garda Síochána, the Road Safety Authority and the Minister will appear in late May and June. We had hoped to complete the report before the summer recess but I think we will be working on the report over the summer recess. We will reflect on the excellent and, at times, shocking evidence presented to the committee today.
I thank all the witnesses and members. Senator Collins is still here. I also acknowledge those in the Public Gallery and the team here, including the policy officer and clerk to the committee.