Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Good morning. Apologies have been received from Senator Dee Ryan. I welcome everyone to today's meeting. I ask those attending remotely to mute themselves when they are not contributing and as usual, I remind everyone in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off. Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Witnesses in the precincts of Leinster House are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. If their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside of the Houses or an official, either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

Today we will discuss accessibility and assistive technology with the following representatives of the Rehab Group: Dr. Rita Day, director of learning; and Ms Ann Marie McDonnell, head of programme and service design. I now invite Dr. Day to make her opening statement.

Dr. Rita Day:

Good afternoon. I am Dr. Rita Day, director of national learning network, NLN, which is part of Rehab Group. I am joined by Ms Anne Marie McDonnell, our head of programme and service design. I thank the Chair and members of the committee for the opportunity to present on accessibility and assistive technology, AT. Rehab Group is an independent voluntary organisation that has supported people with disabilities for over 75 years. We empower people to live more independent lives and to participate fully in their communities by delivering high-quality, flexible, and sustainable care, education, and employment services.

Rehab Group welcomes the publication of the World Health Organization’s AT capability assessment report, a significant step forward in strengthening AT systems in Ireland. We are especially proud that Rehab Group was featured in this landmark work, both for the research conducted and as a contributing organisation. We are also encouraged to see that in the upcoming Irish Presidency of the EU, assistive technology will be a priority. This strengthens Ireland’s own commitments under the human rights strategy for disabled people, where digital and assistive technology is rightly recognised as a fundamental human right.

At Rehab Group we see every day how educational and assistive technologies transform the lives of disabled people, enhancing independence and unlocking participation. This aligns with the UNCRPD and supports people to exercise their economic, social, cultural, and political rights. The CREATE initiative, funded by Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and managed by the HSE’s national clinical programme for people with disability, enabled the development of DAT Central. We describe it as a first-stop shop for digital and assistive technology. In just over two years, DAT Central has supported more than 500 beneficiaries across our services, from low-tech mainstream accessibility features to smart home supports and alternative and augmentative communication devices. We have built front-line capability, with 20 employees completing TU Dublin-accredited assistive technology training and strengthened partnerships with Enable Ireland, including access to its loan library to maximise impact and avoid duplication. We have also secured funding for DAT Works, an initiative that supports both disabled jobseekers and employers in harnessing assistive technologies for job entry and career progression.

Rehab Group is also proud to lead the digital and assistive technology training network, the Wheel’s training links programme which is funded by the National Training Fund, NTF, through the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. Network members identified significant gaps in assistive technology knowledge, including in person-centred assistive technology selection, alternative and augmentative communication, and assistive technology use in workplaces, education, and leisure activities. Many staff lack the confidence to support AT users effectively, and there is no standardised AT training across organisations. By co-designing this training network with service providers and disabled people, we ensure it meets real-world needs.

In NLN, digital accessibility is embedded across our learning ecosystem, enabling students to thrive. Courses are designed using plain English, universal design for learning, and accessible content. We also empower students to use accessibility tools independently. The NLN's tech wheel highlights approved tools that support inclusive learning, while our digital transformation team provides one-to-one support to instructors.

Recognising both the potential and risks of generative AI, NLN has adopted a structured, people-centred approach to ensure its safe, ethical, and practical use supporting accessibility while ensuring that no person is left behind. Partnership is at the heart of Rehab Group’s work in Accessibility and AT. We are members of FreedomTech community hub for accessible technology, CHAT, which includes disabled people, AT users and service providers and aims to create opportunities for people to learn from each other. We are partners with St. John of God Community Services to support people with intellectual disabilities to be paid digi-coaches using a model of peer support and capacity building. As the assistive technology ecosystem evolves from early green shoots into a flourishing landscape, it is essential that people with disabilities are not just participants but leaders in their space. Their insight, innovation and expertise must shape the future of AT. Our call to action is clear. We urge that the recommendations identified in the ATA-C report are supported and advanced across all Government Departments and that funding is available to match the ambitions within those recommendations. Rehab Group is committed to playing an active role in shaping Ireland’s AT ecosystem. Together, we can ensure assistive technology delivers on accessibility and inclusion for everyone.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witness. It is an interesting and in-depth area. The three words in bold in the second paragraph of the presentation are "care", "education" and "employment". We have to go back to that. Is there any fear in the modern digital world that we could lose focus on those three words? Digital assistive technologies are not for everybody, depending on age, demography or disability. How does Dr. Day see the future as being all-encompassing and inclusive for all of Rehab's service users?

Dr. Rita Day:

That is an excellent question. Rehab Group is 12,500 individuals and families across care, education and enterprise in 250 locations with 3,000 staff. We are a big organisation across care, education and employment. It is an important area for us. I think that technology can be a concern going into the future. Having said that, it is also an enabler for people to access and to have opportunities they would not generally have. It is an opportunity for the 2.5 billion people who need one or more assistive products to participate fully in their daily lives and independent living. That number for assistive technology is due to grow to 3.5 billion by 2050, according to the global report on AT. It is very much a challenge of the future but is something we are embracing because we see the opportunities for the people we support and our students across various areas in the organisation.

We also see it as an opportunity for employment for the people who use our services. We know that approximately 32.6% of people with disabilities are employed or go into employment, so there is a considerable gap between that and the EU legislation of 51.3%. We believe that accessibility in assistive technology is a right for all people, and it is an enabler. In terms of equipping ourselves for the future it is part of the criticality of the knowledge economy that we need to upskill in digital literacy. We also need to make sure the people we work with have agency in what they wish to do in the future, so they have the opportunity through assistive technology and accessibility to live lives of their choosing.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Does Dr. Day see a change in the environment of the workplace? Employment is the key word for a lot of Rehab's service users. It is a job for them. They may be in care or receiving education but to them it is a job. They are going to work, and they see the employment element of it irrespective of how small the task they are performing during the day. It is a job. Does Dr. Day see there being any dilution of that interpretation through technology or because of technological advances?

Dr. Rita Day:

It is the opposite. I think the use of technology is an opportunity for them. There is an opportunity to use the technology for employment to enable them to go into the world of employment. We have been working closely with our colleagues in enterprises and with partners in the network and in industry to make sure we have the right skills, equipment, digital literacy and technology to enable people to go into the future with that focus on accessibility and opportunities through the use of technology.

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

I go back to the Senator's point at the beginning. We really listen to choice and preference. Not everybody wants to use digital assistive technology. Sometimes people are a little afraid of using digital assistive technology. Part of our work in Rehab Group, the national learning network and RehabCare is about developing awareness. If you see it, you are more interested in using it. We also find that by introducing more assistive technology, it is generating interest. The Senator is right. Sometimes some of the older men and women we are working with may not have had the same exposure but we really want to give equitable opportunities. We always echo back to person-centred planning and looking at the choice and preference for each person. We do not want anyone not to have access to assistive technology because they feel it is not for them or because they are past that now. We really wanted that central service to be person-centred so people can try it. It is like everything else in education, training and employment. People can try it and then it may not be for them but we are passionate about everybody getting the opportunity to try it.

The Senator also spoke about work. In our organisation we have concerns that the introduction of generative AI in so many workplaces will take away some of the more entry-level careers. We even see in some hotels there are robots going around collecting plates and things like that, so we have concerns. That is why we have put a strategy in place to support our students in learning how to use generative AI safely. We saw during Covid that many disabled people were left behind and there was a massive digital divide. We learned a lot from that. When we see generative AI not just becoming part of work but of everyday, we ensure we have a policy and guidelines in place to support teaching, learning and assessment to help people to become more confident to see how it can be used safely and be an enabler and to see how to not be so scared of it in our day to day. I hope that answers some of it.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations and statements. It is clear from the WHO report that access to digital assistive technologies is a human right, and there is need for a more co-ordinated approach and oversights with regard to it in Ireland. First, how should staff training in assistive technology look across organisations? Who should be responsible for it and how could Rehab's programmes best inform this?

Dr. Rita Day:

I thank the Senator for the question. At the Rehab Group, we make sure that all of our staff and instructors are suitably trained and qualified in the use of AI and technology-enhanced learning. We make sure we do that through universal design for learning, UDL, practices where we are making sure that everything we do is accessible, usable and inclusive. We train our staff according to our tech wheel that we have cordoned across two dimensions, that is, AT devices and AT services. Within our tech wheel and within our UDL practices, we make sure all of our instructors and students are involved in co-creation, co-design and co-production through the use of practises that are instruments for technology enhanced learning so that we have the tools and capability and that we embed that through our policies. We also make sure that our students have access to Moodle, which is our learning management system, and also to Microsoft 365. They all have access to Microsoft 365 as well. All our instructors are also trained in that area through our head of digital transformation.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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In terms of employment, how have digital assistive technology works expanded access in terms of the jobs market? How can we encourage employers to have more of an uptake on this?

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

DAT works is just in its initial stages, but how it will be supporting employers is looking not just at accessibility for the person but also considering accessibility as a whole in where the person will be working. What is really important and special about DAT works is that while we are focusing on it from care and rehab care in a national network for men and women who will be transitioning into employment, we want to put equal emphasis on supporting employers. As I was saying to Senator Daly, some people are a little bit scared of trying new technology or seeing assistive technology. It is the same, too, with employers. They are a little bit apprehensive about assistive technologies. Some of the apprehension is about costs that are there. We need to really work hard on talking about the work and access grant and how that can support. We see DAT works as really being an enabler in supporting transition. It is those pinch points when someone is going into work and being able to respond in a really practical way to employers who have genuine concerns and are really trying to do their best. We will hopefully be talking again about DAT works in the near future and be able to share a little bit more data on impact and particularly stories from lived experience.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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In relation to the loan library, how has that maximised the impact of digital and assistive technology? How could it be expanded and recreated further?

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

When the Create fund came out initially, some of the direction we were given when we were applying was to try to look at what is already out there and at what other organisations are doing so there is no duplication in efforts. In Rehab Group, we worked with Enable Ireland because it had a well-established loan library. The loan library is fantastic. It is for what we talked about, where people get to try different tools and different assistive technologies in a safe space and then get to express their choice and preference on what they want to use. From the way we worked, we found the recommendations hugely successful. We learn a lot as well by working with other partners. From the ATA-C assessment, those recommendations have been echoed so that there is interoperability, which is the word they use, and so that we are not duplicating services and we continue to work. Therefore, because the ATA-C has recommendations for a national AT programme, it is to bring more structure and a more coherent AT ecosystem whereby there will be lots of different providers doing the same thing and there will be greater national resource banks that we will be able to use. We are hopeful for funding and for the future of those recommendations.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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Lastly, is there a country Ms McDonnell would point to that would be an example of somewhere that is really excelling in this area or does she think we are doing well comparatively in Ireland?

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

With the ATA-C coming out, that is going to be our road map. The AT ecosystem in Ireland has been fragmented. It is really welcome that we see the road map that the Government and we as providers can follow. There are some really great exemplars of work that is happening in the space of AT. Obviously, we mentioned the work we are doing through Create. The Create fund has supported lots of organisations to grow. We are obviously very passionate about the digital assistive technology training network. The Senator asked about training staff, and that is like putting in minimum competencies that are in place. There is other wonderful work we have been invited into by St. John of God. That is one that is really so special because it is about supporting AT users and disabled people to become digital coaches to have that peer modelling. When we talk about assistive technology and the funding that is going into it, it should be leading to job creation for disabled people and AT users so that disabled people become disability leaders in that space. There is lots in there around co-creation and co-production, but one of the really good outcomes from it would be if this creates employment for more disabled people and helps us to close our poor employment rate we have across Europe for disabled people.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I thank Ms McDonnell.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Senator Kennelly has a few questions and will be joining us remotely.

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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Unfortunately, I will not make it down to the committee room this afternoon. I am on Lemsip and Sudafed trying to get rid of a cold, so I will not give it to any anyone else.

I welcome Dr. Day’s opening comments and statement today. I congratulate Rehab Group. She mentioned that it has been in operation now for 75 years. That really has to be recognised today at this meeting and also the work it has done for a lot of families and, obviously, the carers and communities. Dr. Day said she was encouraged to see that assistive technology will be a priority in the upcoming Irish Presidency of the EU. She stated that it is basically about training and to help to get across that we are in a new era now. She mentioned AI and assistive technology being used to get more employment for disabled people. To deliver all that, we are really looking at a funding model. What supports or funding would help to expand successful projects like the ones Dr. Day mentioned that are essential and that work across the country? Heading into budget 2027, it is a good time for us to be going with the hand out to support the witnesses.

Dr. Rita Day:

I will begin and then pass it over to Ms McDonnell. I thank the Senator very much for that question. It is very important in that we have an opportunity through the EU Presidency, certainly. Our goal, whether we have students in rehabilitative training, RT, vocational training, VT, or one of our strategic business units, is always employment for all of our students, as it is the right for anyone to have an opportunity to thrive and have independence through work. Ms McDonnell mentioned the road map through the World Health Organization for the AT capacity assessment. I was really encouraged through that where it has identified the five-P framework. Some of the areas it talked about within those recommendations are around the provision. In terms of our people, our policy, our products, our provision and our personnel, we obviously have to factor funding into that as well. Ms McDonnell will be able to speak to Create where we did have some successful funding, but I think that as part of the practice around accessibility and assistive technology, we need to ensure we have adequate funding so that we can be innovative in terms of co-creating, co-production and co-design. We are creative in terms of what we do around teaching learning and assessment and we would like to do the same with assistive technology but, obviously, funding has to be part of that.

We must have that as a consideration for the future. It has to be informed by practice, research and what we are doing with the people we work with on a daily basis, but we must have adequate funding.

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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What are the biggest gaps in Ireland's assistive technology system that still need urgent Government action?

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

The work that was done by the WHO in outlining our capability to deliver on the flourishing AT system is clear evidence. If we were to describe where the gaps are, there is, as the WHO has outlined, a lack of support in looking at a prioritisation of what actions could be taken in the short, medium and long term. Rehab Group welcomes and agrees with the recommendations. Funding is required behind each of those ambitious recommendations. We have been fortunate to receive Create Ireland funding three times. That has supported us to develop sustainable services. The gap we recognised at the beginning was around training staff. We invested in training with Enable Ireland to provide a foundations in AT course with the Technological University Dublin. Staff training is definitely a piece. Of course, we cannot have a flourishing AT system unless people with disabilities and potential AT users can own their own equipment. It is important that the funding is there for people to own their own AT and that it moves with them. We should not just consider them as they move through services. None of our lives should be talked about as moving through services. As people move through different transition points in their lives and different life stages and as they engage as through their choices and preferences in their own communities, it is important that they own their own assistive technology.

There are, as always, many gaps. The Senator can see from our three most recent pre-budget submissions that we always ask for further investment in assistive technology. We were hopeful when we saw the recommendations from the WHO that we were moving forward and that there will be more potential for disabled people to be included through these accessibility measures.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. It is very interesting. It is a positive thing for those with disabilities to be able to have a job and feel they are contributing to their own community. How would this work in rural areas? It will probably be easier in cities. A lot of technological equipment has a short shelf life. What are the Rehab Group's plans in that regard?

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

For the supply of digitally assistive technologies or assistive technologies, from Rehab Group's perspective it does not matter if the person is in an urban location or a rural location. When we are working on supports for one person, we look at that person's needs. It is a good observation. A person in a rural or more remote location may have different needs from someone who is living in a city. There is no difficulty in that regard. In supplying AT, the challenge is always around funding.

There are challenges if someone is moving from children's services to adult services. Children, those under the age of 18, may have access to an alternative augmentative communication device and their needs change as they move from childhood into adulthood. There can sometimes be a bit of a gap when somebody is no longer with children's services. It can then be more difficult to get those supports and link somebody with a community speech and language therapist. Some of the recommendations from the WHO assistive technology assessment capacity, ATA-C, are trying to recognise some of those challenges. It is sometimes difficult to get the device you need because the assessment you need must be done by specific clinicians, perhaps occupational therapists or speech and language therapists. The recommendations also speak about the need for more staff and more types of roles being able to provide assistive technology. That would be welcome. While we will always need specialisms in OT and speech and language therapy, and many other clinical roles, there are times when we do not need them and they may be a barrier. That could be positive as a medium- to long-term plan. That is being looked at through the roadmap.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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There are long waiting lists for those seeking speech and language therapy and OT. I do not know how we can get around that. Ms McDonnell has made a request for more staff. Will that happen? That is the big question. What red-line measures does Ms McDonnell believe are required to bring this forward?

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

It is about looking to the roadmap that is there and considering staff training. More staff training supports more people to be able to give advice, information and guidance, and to do the matching between tech and the person. Training is definitely one aspect. It is about more cohesive services around the national AT programme as it is outlined in the roadmap. There are many areas. The WHO talks about five areas and there is investment needed across all those areas. Rather than investing in one, we need to invest across all five of those areas for us to have that flourishing AT ecosystem.

One of the reasons we are so passionate about looking for investment in these spaces is that we hope it will create more jobs for disabled people. Nothing that comes from this will be more special than disabled people and AT users being seen as the leaders who are bringing forward this roadmap and its implementation.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
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Ms McDonnell talked about robots taking over jobs. Somebody has to turn those robots on and off.

Dr. Rita Day:

That is true. I will add that, although Article 24 is critical in education, it is not cited specifically or called out in the UNCRPD. However, we noted that it is covered under a number of different articles, including Articles 4, 9, 20, 24, 26, 27, 29 and 30. As Ms McDonnell mentioned, we were encouraged by the recommendations from the WHO, particularly around population level data, which might address some of the rural-urban debate, and by the references to the lifespan of the person using the assistive technology and ensuring that we have AT hubs around the country that are the subject matter experts and are accessible to all.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming. Rehab Group is doing incredible work. I spent two of the most enjoyable and productive hours to date in my time as a TD with Arklow Rehab Group recently. They were a group of teenagers. We covered practically every topic under the sun, including local events and politics in general. They were such an engaging group. They are super talented. I was encouraging some of them to go into politics because they are really talented. Not that you need to be talented to go into politics; I am not saying that. However, they would have an awful lot to offer.

Tiglin is Wicklow is also doing incredible work. I wonder about such groups accessing funding. Have the witnesses any tips for applying for technological grants? What are the obstacles that might be encountered?

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

Sometimes the obstacle, as we talked about, is that you do not know what you do not know. It is very difficult for an organisation to start out on that route. I know we said that we have been in existence for 75 years but when we started developing our services, we had partners that we leaned into and learned from. We have worked closely with Enable Ireland and St. John of God's. There are 12 members in our training network consortium. We are talking about where people can go. There is one fantastic place that we recommend anyone to go, which is the Freedom Tech Community Hub for Assistive Technology, CHAT.

It is a community of practice for assistive technology. Everybody is welcome. That includes potential AT users, current AT users, staff members, professionals and family members. It is a really nice safe space where people can come to learn. If the Deputy ever meets a small organisation that does not know where to start, he should recommend that. It is a really great space and there are lots of us there who are happy to share information and to learn and build capacity with others.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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The work the Rehab Group does is just immense and really important, whether through RehabCare, the National Learning Network or DAT Works. I have a couple of questions to ask by way of clarification. The Rehab Group accesses funding under the CREATE initiative, which allowed it to establish DAT Central, which is a one-stop shop for digital and assistive technology. What happens to that service or project when the funding runs out? It is really important and provides lots of information. Its staff have loads of information about the assistive technologies people need. I presume it is about how to access different grants and funding for the different forms of technology. What happens when that funding ends? Will the Rehab Group be able to access more? It would be terrible to see that project finish after all the work it has done.

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

The Senator is absolutely right. We have said that we do not like talking about going from service to service but it is also never nice to talk about going from grant to grant. That is why we are saying we need such investment in the AT ecosystem. DAT Central was funded under the first and second rounds of the CREATE initiative. Prior to that, we spent a lot of time planning what could be sustainable. We upskilled staff across RehabCare and the National Learning Network around the country so we now have more AT expertise at the front-line level. We invested in this training ourselves to build awareness. We have integrated AT into our application processes to help us to understand the supports people may need in that space. In the National Learning Network, we have invested a great deal in developing accessible teaching and learning. That can be as simple as having Office 365, which is accessible, across all of our student platforms.

We have worked hard to ensure a lot of our projects will be sustainable after grant funding ends. However, the Senator is right; there is one post that is not funded into the future. We have looked at how that could be funded within the organisation. We are happy to see that the Assistive Technology Assessment Centre's recommendations include a recommendation to have AT-specific roles within organisations. That is why we hope these roles will be funded going forward. The very reason speech and language therapy members within the Rehab Group, such as Dr. Day, decided to fund this is because we could not lose all the amazing work that had been done or the knowledge, skills and expertise that have been developed.

We are now moving into DAT Works, which will run in parallel and which will be grant-funded. We look at things at an individual level. With DAT Works, we will consider sustainability from the outset. We really lean into the work and access grant and trying to support employers to get access to assistive technology through that grant. It is the same in DAT Central. Where possible, we work with the community clinicians to access funding through the HSE aids and appliances programme.

These are the things we talk about as being a little bit fragmented. We are talking about greater co-operation across the Departments and we hope that, under the new AT programme, we will start seeing less disruption when people move from children's services to adult services or when people's needs change, as all of our needs change as we get older. However, grant funding is always very difficult. We should also mention that we have had support from different corporate partners. We have had corporate sponsorship to support us in looking at digital accessibility. Such partners have included PayPal, Meta, Mason Hayes Curran, and the ESB. I should not have mentioned anyone in case I cannot remember everybody. While corporate sponsorship is wonderful and something we really celebrate, it is difficult that this is where funding needs to come from.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Ms McDonnell has said that the assistive technology should follow the person. I have seen this in schools. If a child requires assistive technology in primary school, the school makes an application and, if that application is granted, the device stays with the school. It does not follow the child to secondary school or to whatever he or she does after secondary school. We need to see that change. Technology will obviously develop and be upgraded. That will have to happen anyway. People's needs also change. However, the system needs to be much smoother. I find that children are sometimes left waiting for months or longer for assistive technology even when their applications are granted. By the time they get it, they have lost out on a great deal. Is there any sign that this will change? It is the same with employers. If somebody changes employment, the new employer has to apply for the reasonable accommodations funding all over again. If the type of accommodation allows, it would make a lot more sense for the person to be allowed to bring it with them.

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

We always use the example of the schools, which the Senator has mentioned. We meet people from the age of 18 onwards so we are always involved in negotiations for people to get assessments before turning 18 so we can continue and move forward with that and work with them when they come into day services or rehabilitative training. I am hopeful. A lot of what we are raising here and still talking about has been captured. A lot of consultation has been done with people, families and service providers to identify where the gaps were. As the Senator can see, in our recommendations, we talk about a whole-of-government approach. We are trying to address those kinds of issues. We talk about a national AT programme and bringing efficiencies into procurement and identifying suppliers. It is about all of those issues. It is an attempt to solve the challenges we are talking about here. The national AT programme and the roadmap are positive ways to address all of this. However, as the Senator has said, funding is required to ensure those recommendations really start to make an impact in the lives of disabled people.

Dr. Rita Day:

It also has to involve sustainable practice. Everything we do is to provide scaffolding for our staff and students. We are building on that pedagogical base as we progress. The concept of the life span of a person is also really important. While technology is changing, people's needs also change. There is space to develop that piece a lot further. It does require funding but it also requires innovation and sustainable practices in how we perform and serve the people we serve.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Before I go to Deputy Cummins, is there any follow-up from members of the committee?

Laura Harmon (Labour)
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I have more of a comment than a question. I thank the witnesses. The work they do is amazing. It was great to meet members of the Rehab Group at the National Learning Network open day in Hollyhill in Cork. I also got to meet some of the students involved. The organisation does phenomenal work.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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When I was on the disability committee, I saw homes that were designed in such a way as to allow people with complex physical disabilities to live independently with the aid of assistive technology. We can now use our phones to turn things on and off around the house. They were able to do that. How is that funded? I presume the Rehab Group is able to advise people where to look for those sorts of aids through DAT Central but is funding available? Is there a long waiting list for supports?

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

While the CREATE funding was really super, it was not at a level that would allow for the kind of changes the Senator has spoken about in relation to homes. However, we have used it for really simple measures such as the installation of electric blinds so that people will not need staff to close their blinds for them in the evening. We have looked at one-cup tea makers for people who are visually impaired. This allows them to make a cup of tea safely themselves and not to need someone else to do it for them. These have a liquid level indicator. There is a great range of needs even within the home. In our DAT training network video, the Senator will see people talking about some of the smaller changes they have made to make their homes more accessible.

However, there are obviously some major changes needed for some people as well. I do not have enough information on the housing side for the Senator but we can come back on that. I know I keep sounding like a broken record but the recommendations point to accessibility in the home, which refers to those major adaptations. There area also the mainstream devices, such as Amazon Echo and smart homes, which add wonderful accessibility for all of us in our lives.

Dr. Rita Day:

Before we came in today, we were speaking about our students being so creative and coming up with their own innovative solutions to a lot of the problems. We will have to do some work, maybe have a boot camp or something very creative around design and user experience.

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

That is fantastic. I completely forgot about it. Some of our students have used our 3D printer. One of our students was going on a work experience placement and he uses a cane. He said he hates leaving it lying around and he did not really know where to put it in every office he went into. Another student, a 3D printer hobbyist, made him a clamp which he can bring with him. It just means the student can attach it to a desk or table wherever he is, for example, if he is out for a meal. It is always there. Braille signs are another one. The students made Braille signs for all of our doors in one of our centres as well.

It is about talking to each other. That is why we say co-creation and co-production are so important. The students could be some of the product developers of the future. We have presented at AHEAD and the student we are talking about presented at AHEAD and an engineer from Atlantic Technological University came up to congratulate him on his design. As Deputy Ó Súilleabháin said, we have hugely talented people who we believe can make great ripples and tides in this area, once they get out in the labour market.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I am sorry I was late. That is how things are in here. I thank the witnesses. I have had the pleasure of visiting College East in Ballyfermot in my constituency. I went out when it was a shell of a building. I thought that some vision and a huge amount of work would have to go into it but only a matter of months later, in September last, the college opened. We were all given such a warm welcome. The Minister of State, Deputy Marian Harkin, spoke and we spoke afterwards about what a warm and wonderful place it is. The students spoke so well about the opportunities they were getting to be valued and have a purpose in life, as everybody wants for their child and themselves. As we grow up, that is what we want, and I really felt the college was that place. I listened to Ms O'Donnell talk about the young person who created something. They see what the problem is and create the solution, which is what we want. If this is what the NLN is able to do, it is fantastic. Those who have a disability are the ones who know and understand what it is and are best placed to develop that.

My question is about the one-stop shop and the 500 beneficiaries across the services from DAT Central. How many more people need that? As wonderful as it is that 500 people got it, what is the shortfall? You do not fix it and then it is done forever. What is the shortfall in this given time and how can we make sure in the future, as the person needs whatever he or she needs, we make sure it is available.

Dr. Rita Day:

I thank the Deputy again for coming to College East. It is a wonderful flagship for us and what we want for our students going into the future. As the Deputy said, it was very much a shell and it is now thriving. Our students love-----

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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It is a really beautiful building. The colours are lovely. It is such a welcoming, lovely space, so well done.

Dr. Rita Day:

I thank the Deputy. We are developing our programmes there. We are developing our microqualifications and we have great ambitions for Erasmus and student and staff mobility. We have great ambitions for that as well and developing our programmes accordingly.

In terms of beneficiaries, there are always more who could benefit from assistive technology. On our practices and what we do in terms of accessibility, we are developing that all of the time. We are working very much with partners and our learning community to make sure we have identified any gaps around the data we need, funding or service continuity. Ms McDonnell may wish to discuss the development of beneficiaries.

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

One of the gaps we have is with data and understanding the level of need. In the WHO assessment, under policy, one of the priorities is to collect population-level data on assistive technology use. That is what we need. We need that evidence base built up that will help us with forward planning. On the 500 AT users, it has been so diverse in what they have used. We talked about the Breville one-cup tea maker with a liquid indicator, so that somebody who is visually impaired or has low vision can make tea safely, as well as quite advanced technology where we have supported people to access alternative and augmentative communication, AAC, devices for the first time.

I know Senator Daly spoke about older people but we are meeting some people who are older who did not have assessments at a younger age. One of the reasons they never had access to AAC is that they were not assessed at the time. They used something else but now, if they had the choice, they perhaps would use AAC. What we have is wide-ranging. Another great enabler and beneficiary, which we have not counted in the 500, is that every single student in our national network has access to Office365 and their own NLN email account. What that has meant is that all the mainstream accessibility features they use with us in education and training are also learning for them when they go into the real world. Even with options like immersive reader or dictate - those sorts of features within mainstream technologies - it is really important that our students learn those and can bring them with them as they move into the workplace.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for not being here but I was tuned into proceedings. On Deputy Jen Cummins's point on the data, is it too simplistic to think that, at second level, we would be aware of the people who have or require assistive technology and that information and data would simply move on to the third level sector?

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

As the student is moving and if he or she has had an assessment and has assistive technology, it is really helpful. They can probably go to their student access office in the university and say what they have used in the past or that they used something similar in the past and it was useful and then ask how that might work in the university. That might be one way. There are probably a lot of people in school who do not have a disability or some people who have an undiagnosed disability. We may be missing that data as well or perhaps somebody has a specific learning difficulty that is undiagnosed. We can see how mainstream technologies can be wonderful in supporting people with dyslexia, dyscalculia - those areas. There is definitely data that can be brought but there is a still a gap we do not see. Hopefully, when there is more population data, we will be better informed on how to plan those transition points.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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What is the organisation's working relationship like with the institutions?

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

As regards further and higher education, we are funded by the 16 education and training boards. For students within the national learning network, we support their progression to further education, higher education, apprenticeships and jobs. We always talk about transition points and those pinch points. When many of our students are leaving with assistive technology needs, they will know what their needs are. They will know the tools they are using and sometimes they are bringing that tool with them. When you transition to further education, there will be student support officers who will be able to support that transition. Moving into higher education, there are access officers who can support students to transition into those institutions. Sometimes, the issue is not knowing, so it is great if students know they can go to those offices.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That is the question. Is it part of the organisation's remit or role to open those avenues to students?

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

As we are doing transition planning when people are leaving, yes.

Dr. Rita Day:

We collect that data across our 89 locations. We are constantly collecting that information as well. That is part of it as students move through our centres and colleges into further and higher education and, hopefully, into employment as well.

Over 90% of our students complete their training with the national learning network. We have that data across the locations as well and it is something we are very cognisant of.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is there a gap there between the NLN's own endeavours and the opportunities that are available at further and higher education institutions? Are the students aware of those opportunities that might be presented to them in the institutions?

Dr. Rita Day:

They would be. We have a number of them within our own teams. We raise awareness and have good collaboration with a number of different networks as well through further and higher education so they would be aware of that. We are always trying to raise awareness of the opportunities as well through our staff and our students.

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

When the higher education institutions and further education colleges have their open days they are always very good at talking about what supports are available there and we encourage and support our students to attend those days. It is not necessarily anything disability-specific but when you and learn about the different services people have. As well, within tertiary education, many of the further and higher education institutions, as well as ourselves, have adopted the altitude charter. That is wonderful as it is a real commitment to accessibility across the whole college environment. That is another positive that should make a difference for students who are transitioning through further and higher education.

Dr. Rita Day:

Just to add, the altitude charter assessment for learning is very much part of it, and inclusive education. We have that embedded within the NLN.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Will the witnesses tell us about the digi-coaches and how many people have been involved in that?

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

We have just started digi-coaches. It is an initiative by St. John of God Community Services and is part of CREATE funding. This is one of the really great partnerships I spoke about. As they were making their submission they knew how committed we are to accessibility and assistive technology and asked us to be a partner.

With digi-coaches, St. John of God Community Services will hire the digi-coaches but what is wonderful about it is these digi-coaches can work in the college they have been a student in. Deputy Cummins mentioned College East and two students there have completed their interviews and were successful and will be digi-coaches. That will be peer mentoring so they can choose areas of expertise they have. One of our student's areas of expertise will be Minecraft education so they will be a peer coach in relation to coding. Somebody else is an ambassador for accessibility in 365 so that will be their area of expertise.

There will be some teaching but also, when you start a new course or job you forget how to sign on, even for things like that in the mornings the digi-coaches will be around to do peer support if people have forgotten how to sign in, to remind them how to use the authenticator app or things like that. Ms Sarah Boland leads digi-coaches in St. John of God. Digi-coaches is a really great opportunity to showcase what we have talked about here. There are 80 users and disabled people who can be leaders in this space and it will show real value, like when we talk about special needs assistants as well, and see how peer coaching can work. Contracts are just coming down but two of our students are about to start and we are very supportive of it. We would love to be involved in more initiatives and to drive initiatives ourselves. That is why partnership in accessibility and AT is so important; that we keep learning from each other and sharing with each other.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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That is great news and best of luck to those two students.

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

They are wonderful. I thank the Cathaoirleach.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Going on from Senator Tully's points about the accessibility of actually getting this technology, Senator Tully and I sat on the previous disability matters committee and over and over again we heard about personalised budgets and the ability to be autonomous in one's own choices. How would the witnesses see a potential personalised budget for AT work for organisations like the NLN and, more importantly, the people it works with?

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

Think of it outside a personalised budget. A person whether he or she is using a personalised budget or is in a service needs that equity. It does not matter where you are getting your service or how you are getting it; there needs to be equity in how you access your digital assistive technology. We will see that more suppliers will come into the market. We will be supported through the roadmap in having more frameworks through the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, so we are able to access products at a better rate as well, so there are some of those areas.

Irrespective of whether it is personalised budgets or services, with a person-centred and rights-based approach everybody should be able to express his or her preference on what piece of technology works best for him or her and how to fund it. The data, which I think is from the WHO, shows that for every dollar you invest, the return on investment is $9. If we have any takeaway from discussions, it is that. When we have service providers, AT users and families calling for more funding in this space, we should remember there is that massive return on investment.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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When the NLN buys AT for a service user, does that belong to the service and is it on loan to the individual?

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

Actually, under the CREATE grant it would still be owned by the HSE.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

We give it to the person to use and they use it for the lifespan they need to use it for. Also, in three or four years the technology will go so it will probably be over the course of the grant. That is when we start looking at the HSE aids and appliances or the work and access grants. That is why we were making the point earlier that it is great if a person owns it. If you need an augmentative and alternative communication, AAC, device, it is your voice. There is even something a bit jarring when we speak about rights-based provision that a service owns your voice. There are always things we need to look at in regard to supporting good governance and good practices but it is very important that people own their technology. You own your wheelchair. Whatever it is, it is yours.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely, it is a person's autonomy to move service as well if you own the technology so you are not stuck. I do not mean to use the word "stuck". It is the same with the work-based supports as well that you have the autonomy of choice to move freely from one employer to another.

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

Just for day to day life, that I have my AAC device and I use it if I am going to the pub on Friday the same as I use it on Monday morning when I am going into my job.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Absolutely, 100%.

Dr. Rita Day:

It is also as the needs change. There might be new technology that might be needed. It might become redundant or might need to evolve with the person as well. It is all about that self-determination of needs and how they evolve over time with the person.

Ms Anne Marie McDonnell:

Exactly.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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It is complex, but really important as well. There are no more questions. I thank Dr. Day and Ms McDonnell for their engagement today on this really important issue. I thank them for the work done by the Rehab Group and the NLN. We all have experience with the wonderful students, service users and staff of these centres right throughout our constituencies and our country so it is really important. From what we have heard today there are a number of key themes. AT is no longer niche. It is absolutely central to participation and equality. It is absolutely integral to employment. While innovation is advancing very rapidly, access is uneven and there is a strong need for better co-ordination. The NLN is very much working on that. We need investment and training across the entire remit of sectors. Not to speak for the committee but I presume we very much support the recommendations that the NLN gave us today, particularly around the cross-departmental collaboration, the standardised training and sustainable funding supports, which are absolutely critical because unfortunately, and fortunately, funding makes the wheels go round in every organisation, particularly in critical organisations like the witnesses' own. On that note, we will wrap up. I want to make sure I do this properly.

On behalf of the committee, I thank the witnesses for attending and engaging with the committee today. We will suspend briefly to allow them to depart before moving into private session to deal with our housekeeping matters. Is that agreed? Agreed.