John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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This morning, we will engage with the National Oil Reserves Agency to examine the National Oil Reserves Agency’s financial statements for 2024. On behalf of the committee, I welcome officials from the National Oil Reserves Agency: Dr. Frank Bergin, chief executive officer, Ms Lisa Mullan, financial controller and company secretary, Mr. Gain Norris, operations manager for renewable activities, and Mr. Justin Fahey, commercial manager. We are also joined by Mr. John Burke, principal officer from the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment, who is attending in a representative capacity. We are also joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, including the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee, and Ms Teresa Diamond, audit manager. You are all very welcome.

Before we begin, I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards references witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected, pursuant to both the Constitution and statute, by absolute privilege. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. Witnesses are, however, expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Witnesses are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.

I call the Comptroller and Auditor General to make his opening statement.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The National Oil Reserves Agency was established on a statutory basis in 2007. The agency’s principal functions are to maintain the State’s emergency reserve oil stocks and to collect a statutory levy on the sales of petroleum products. It operates under the aegis of the Minister for Climate, Energy and the Environment.

The agency’s financial statements for 2024 disclosed total income of €123 million. This was almost exclusively in the form of levy receipts collected on qualifying fossil fuel sales. The levy in 2024 was a flat-rate 2 cent per litre. This was recently reduced to a nominal 0.1 cent per litre as part of a price reduction package for petroleum products.

The agency does not receive Exchequer funding. The levy receipts are intended in the first instance to cover the agency’s operating costs. Surplus levy receipts over many years allowed the agency to build up its oil stocks and invest in storage, to eliminate borrowing and to generate substantial cash reserves and financial investments. Changes in legislation in 2020 provided for surplus reserves to be transferred, at the direction of the Minister, to the statutory Climate Action Fund. That fund is managed and reported upon separately by the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment.

The agency’s operating expenditure in 2024 was €42 million, 90% of which related to the storage costs of the agency’s oil reserves.

The agency transferred €100 million to the Climate Action Fund in 2024, following a transfer of €80 million in 2023.

The agency’s statement of financial position discloses that the value of its strategic oil reserves at 31 December 2024 was €942 million. The stocks were estimated to be sufficient to cover at least 90 days of normal consumption, which is the statutory minimum to be held. Stocks were held in a combination of agency and private storage facilities on the island of Ireland and in a number of locations in other EU states. A small proportion of the stock is secured under short-term commercial contracts, which give the agency rights to purchase supply. Other than for normal stock maintenance purposes, the oil reserves are only be released to the market in the event of an emergency or a physical shortage of supplies at the direction of the Minister and as part of a co-ordinated International Energy Agency or EU-international response to an identified concern or both.

The 2024 financial statements were certified by me on 24 June 2025. I issued an unqualified opinion in respect of the financial statements. For the information of the committee, the audit of the draft 2025 financial statements is on schedule and currently nearing completion.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Thanks for that. I will now ask the chief executive officer to deliver the opening statement on behalf of the National Oil Reserves Agency. As set out in the letter of invitation, Dr. Bergin has five minutes to make his opening statement.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Thank you very much. In some ways, part of my opening statement has been covered already so I will skip that. I see our role as fourfold. The first element, as was outlined, is to hold our minimum of 90 days of oil reserves. The second element is to ensure we have resources, skills and procedures to support the Department in responding to a national or indeed an international disruption in oil supply. The third of our tasks is to administer the renewable transport fuels obligation scheme and we are the designated authority for measuring compliance with Article 7a of the fuel quality directive. The last of our tasks is to carry out the functions assigned to us as the competent authority for the purposes of enforcing the application of the ReFuelEU aviation regulations in respect of aviation fuel suppliers. Those are our four key tasks.

The agency has sanction for a team of nine individuals. One role is vacant and we will be advertising for that presently. The agency has its own board of directors, which is chaired by Mr. Frank Gleeson. There are five external members of the board, each of whom are appointed by the Minister. The CEO of NORA is also a board member. The board has one sub-committee, which is the audit and risk committee. It is comprised of three non-executive directors and is currently chaired by Mr. Rossa McCann. The agency’s internal audit function is contracted out on a rolling three-year basis. That internal audit function is currently provided by Moore Ireland. The agency obviously has an external auditor in the Comptroller and Auditor General.

On our stock holding, NORA’s holding obligation is based on the level of net imports of oil for the preceding 12 months and has remained relatively flat for the last number of years. It is adjusted annually by the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment. The agency has consistently met its 90 days stock holding obligation by holding finished, readily-marketable grades of petrol, diesel, kerosene and jet fuel. At the end of March 2026, the agency was holding the equivalent of 1.7 million tonnes of oil. That is approximately 2.1 billion litres with 140,000 tonnes of this being held by way of CSO tickets, which we might come back to at a later stage. It is important to recognise NORA physically owns and holds about 1.95 billion litres of oil, with the balance held by way of these stock options. The product is stored in a multiplicity of locations around Ireland and in oil terminals across the EU in Spain, Denmark, the Netherlands and Sweden.

In March of this year, Ireland agreed to participate in the release of oil reserves proposed by the IEA. Ireland’s share of the agreed 400 million barrels to be released is 1.61 million barrels or approximately 200,000 tonnes. I apologise for slipping between tonnes, barrels and litres, but unfortunately that is how the industry operates. Over the coming weeks, the agency will move to release that reserve and that will mean we will release effectively ten and a half days of stock. It is important to recognise that we hold 90 days of reserves and that is to say that if no oil was imported into the country and the refinery in Whitegate did not produce any oil, we have 90 days of stock sitting available to the State. In reality you do not get that catastrophic failure of supply but a curtailment of some supply. If that curtailment was a reduction of 20% then NORA's reserve would feed that 20%. If it were to feed just 20% of the supply, 90 days of stock would be extended out to 90 times five, which is 450 days or in excess of a year. Our reserves are quite carefully managed to allow time for those releases. Where possible, and subject to value for money, the agency holds as much of its reserves on the island as possible. At the end of March 2026, the agency was holding just two thirds of its reserves on the island, with the rest being in Europe. As I said, the product is held in a combination of industry oil terminals and three terminals we own and operate in our own right. There are two in Dublin at Poolbeg and Ringsend and one in Tarbert in Kerry.

The agency has well-developed and tested emergency response plans that set out how it will respond to a national or international supply crisis. These plans are tested regularly with both the industry and the Department and the latest of these exercises was carried out no later than last week, on 29 April. The agency has established a reporting mechanism where the oil industry supplies it with data on what is currently held in oil terminals and what the industry's future imports and sales are going to look like. That data is provided on a 15-day rolling forward basis. That allows us to see what is held in-country. Given the current crisis we have stood up that reporting mechanism. The agency is a member of the Department’s energy security group. It also attends the IEA meetings and the EU Commission-organised meetings, so we stay well connected locally and internationally.

NORA has a significant role to play in the renewables space. It is designated as the competent authority for the assessment of sustainability of biofuels placed on the market and is designated as the administrator of the renewable transport fuel obligation scheme. Under this scheme, oil companies that place fossil fuel in the transport sector are required to ensure a share of that fossil fuel is derived from renewable sources, with the current obligation being 32% by energy. NORA is also designated as the competent authority for the purposes of looking at the obligations of aviation fuel suppliers to comply with their obligations under the ReFuelEU aviation regulations. These regulations require that aviation fuel suppliers ensure from 2025 that 2% of the fuel supplied comes from sustainable sources. It is expected in 2026 that the agency will be designated as the competent authority for renewables under the renewable heat obligation and also be the administrator of the scheme.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Thank you for that, Dr. Bergin. Please note the meeting is scheduled to conclude at 12.30 p.m. as officials have another meeting to attend.

I open the floor to members. The lead speaker today is Deputy Geoghegan, who has 15 minutes. All others will have ten minutes on the conclusion of that.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Thanks, Chair. I thank the witnesses very much for being here. As Dr. Bergin outlined, in March the International Energy Agency took a decision that globally oil reserves would be released. For a decision like that, is Ireland in the room? If so, how does that work? How does a decision like that come about?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes. Ireland is an active member of what is called the governing board. The IEA has what is called the governing board and it makes the decisions about releases. Ireland sits at that table.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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The release of global oil reserves in that situation was obviously a unanimous decision.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It is.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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What is the atmosphere? In global politics it is very difficult to get 100 countries or whatever to agree.

How does one get such a level of unanimity? Ireland is a tiny country in the oil supply world. Where do we have influence in a situation like that?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We as NORA do not participate in that meeting. That is effectively somebody from the Department who sits on the governing board. How the governing board comes to a consensus is perhaps not a question for us.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In terms of how NORA holds its volume of oil, am I right in saying that one third of that oil is not on the island of Ireland?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is correct.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does that mean that, in effect, NORA has 60 days of oil on the island of Ireland?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Correct.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In a catastrophic scenario, how would that play out if we needed more than 60 days of oil? How do we get the ships and tankers to bring in the additional oil that would be necessary? What assessment has been done with regard to the fact that one third of our oil reserves are not on the island of Ireland?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We must bear in mind that as an island nation, everything comes in by ship. The existing oil companies that import and supply product to the country all do that by ship. In a catastrophic crisis of that nature, we would simply ask the oil companies to send those ships to collect where we have our stocks in Spain, Amsterdam or Denmark instead of picking up their oil where they normally pick it up in Europe or the UK. It is effectively three days' sailing away so it is a relatively short sailing period. All I would say to the industry is to redirect its shipping capacity.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Does NORA assess what national oil reserves in other member states are doing? Is it common for other EU member states to have their oil reserves located in different jurisdictions and countries?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

There is no mandate on a stocks entity to store in national territory. My counterparts across Europe store their product in multiple locations. Our equivalent in the Netherlands - Centraal Orgaan Voorraadvorming Aardolieproducten, COVA, in Amsterdam - stores products in Germany. New Zealand keeps some of its reserves in Amsterdam. Luxembourg keeps the majority of its stock outside its national territory. It is not unusual for stocks agencies to keep their stocks outside their territory. Are we out of kilter with the norm? We are probably slightly higher than the norm but not materially so.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is it strange that we are higher than the norm if we are an island nation? I do not know how the oil is transported in the countries referred to by Dr. Bergin but I presume that oil is transported by land, although it may not be.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. Given the scale of some of the stocks held by others, the stocks are transferred by ship or barge. It is not unusual for product outside territories to move by ship back into territories.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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So there are no additional risk considerations in terms of where we hold our stock of oil and the fact that we are an island nation.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The fact that we are an island nation means that we have to be mindful of the fact that everything is shipped into the country but that is something we just have to live with. We are an island nation.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is there a limit? Could NORA have 50% or 40%? Could it have more oil reserves outside the island of Ireland?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

What we as an agency do is constantly look to find and identify additional capacity to store on-island. The team has about five or six different projects running trying to identify alternative sites where we can store on-island. We have effectively most of the capacity. Spare capacity is utilised in storing our reserves.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I would say that a lot of people did not even know NORA existed until recent weeks. In light of what is taking place in the world, is it the intention of the agency to try to stock a higher volume of our reserve on the island of Ireland?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

In the short term, we have no plans to increase what we hold on-island.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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When the blockades were taking place, to what extent, if at all, did that affect the work of the agency?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Given that the agency's remit is to hold strategic reserves, blockading a facility does nothing to us. Our reserves are sitting in terminals around the country so it does not affect our operation. Under the blockade, there was plenty of product. The issue was distributing that product within the country. Our operation is unaffected by that.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the reporting mechanisms described by Dr. Bergin, NORA has this role involving oversight and understanding of how much oil is in the country at any given time. Was NORA called upon to provide any reporting as the blockades were taking place?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No, but bear in mind that our reporting is in terminals so it involves an import terminal location. As it is not downstream of those terminals, we do not have line of sight of what is held in retail forecourts or distributor depots. We merely have what is landed into oil terminals in the country.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Regarding the release that was announced in March, Dr. Bergin explained in his statement that this will physically take place in the next couple of weeks. Is that correct? Will that have any domestic impact? Obviously, there is a global impact that we all understand but will the actual physical release on this island have a domestic impact on the price at the pump and everything else?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The release of NORA's reserves would not have any impact on fuel pump prices. These are determined by the oil industry. Given that our release in this case was part of the IEA release, our release will be into the international markets. We would expect our product to be released to international oil companies. Where these companies choose to sell that product is up to them. Whether some of that comes back to Ireland is up to them. With regard to the Ukraine war, for example, we had the same issue in 2022. Some of the product we released into the international market did find its way back into Ireland.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Obviously this release is part of a global response but are there ever scenarios where NORA has a remit to release oil for exclusively domestic reasons?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes, we match or respond to either an international crisis or, if instructed by the Department, we will respond to a national crisis. In light of the Ukraine war, there was a tightness of supply in Dublin in 2023 so we responded by releasing diesel out of our terminal in Poolbeg to the oil industry and that release was purely to national oil companies or national suppliers in the Irish market.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Obviously the Ukraine crisis was affecting the world in terms of oil and gas prices. Could Dr. Bergin expand on why that was distinguished as a domestic response rather than a global-European response?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We responded on two levels. In response to the Ukraine war, the IEA called for an international release and we released some reserves into the international market. That then manifested itself in some local tightness in Dublin and we responded to that local tightness. Unusually, we also supplied some diesel to the refinery in Cork where there was an operational issue. We can respond to national and international issues.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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When NORA carries out those releases, are they always published? Are they always known about? Is it always put out there that these releases have taken place? What are the circumstances?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

With regard to international releases, it is very public that we will release our reserves. That is a very public offer and we make that publicly available to oil companies. On a national basis, we tend to work with counterparties one on one but it is always at the discretion of the Minister.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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It is at the discretion of the Minister to-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

To release or not. We do not have a choice. We do not hold this State asset that we can choose who to give it to. We would normally have to engage with the Department and Minister to say we think or see there is a problem here and would suggest that the Minister releases. We would then given approval to release.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is it always done that way? Is it always on NORA's advice as distinct from the Minister seeking to advise NORA?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It is probably fair to say that we are well connected with the supply position into the country and, therefore, we would provide some steer to the Department and the Minister but, ultimately, it is the Minister's choice as to whether he releases.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Are there circumstances where a Minister unilaterally directs NORA to take action it might advise against in the absence of it advising about a situation?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No, I have never advised against action taken. To be fair, the release under the IEA is strictly a ministerial decision, so we were simply notified that Ireland had opted to participate in the IEA release.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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But in the domestic situation like Dr. Bergin outlined about the specific-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

In the domestic one, it is more by way of mutual engagement.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Could Dr. Bergin foresee scenarios in the current energy crisis where there are domestic releases of the type that took place in Ukraine?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Obviously, it is a potential at any point in time. There can be any number of reasons we might release a reserve, yes.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Is that an ongoing dialogue with the Department, the Minister-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes. At the moment, we meet with the oil industry every week. Mr. Burke and his team, we in NORA and the oil industry meet once a week at this point to discuss the ongoing supply issues.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, I hope we never see a blockading of our refineries ever again. I really think that form of action has no justification, notwithstanding the challenges people faced in the country and a lot of very legitimate people who were involved in protest. The blockading, however, is a very different matter. If there were blockading of certain refineries and there were distribution issues, is the oil reserve releasing ever a remedy in those scenarios, in a domestic-type scenario, should issues like that arise again?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I would probably suggest that our role is not in the distribution and the downstream distribution. Our role is to hold 90 days of reserve of oil. It is not to distribute that to end consumption. In that context, I am not sure what role we would play if there were a disruption of distribution.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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We have a reserve for - Dr. Bergin can correct me if I am wrong - petrol, diesel and kerosene, and jet fuel as well. Is that right?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Correct, yes.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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But we do not have a reserve for gas, do we?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

My understanding is that we do not have a reserve for gas. That is correct.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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And even if we did, I can almost anticipate Dr. Bergin's statement saying, "That is not my job." I do not mean that pejoratively but-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes, that is not within the scope of NORA, I am afraid. That is a separate discussion.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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Dr. Bergin can tell me that he is not going to talk about this because it is not his remit, but do other jurisdictions have national gas reserves? Is this something Dr. Bergin envisages NORA might have a responsibility for in the future?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Other jurisdictions do have gas reserves. Do they have a separate agency that looks after gas reserves and oil reserves? There are multiple models across Europe. Some of them are indeed concentrated in one agency and some of them are not.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I suspect that the first thing many Ministers and the Taoiseach look at every morning is the price of oil in every Government across the world. Does that make NORA more relevant to the Government day to day? As regards the demands of what NORA does, is Dr. Bergin suddenly receiving a lot more text messages and phone calls than he ever would have in the past couple of decades? I do not mean this to be trite, but there are a lot of people out there in this country who are really nervous about facing into the winter and what the ongoing impact of the war is going to be on the prices they are paying on their electricity and their gas and at the pumps. Obviously, the Government has responded to that, but they also know that the Government response is not infinite and that the challenges remain. What role does NORA play in supporting the Government with the best available advice and information on what is taking place, or is it literally that the Government just has to rely on what is taking place in the global supply market?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Our role is, as I said, primarily to hold 90 days of reserves. However, we extend that role to engage with the industry and to ensure that we understand the supply chain all the way through from extraction from the ground through to finishing in the marketplace, so we do have a degree of expertise about the oil supply chain and the oil business. It is fair to say that when there is a crisis we are called upon more frequently than when there is none. We sit in the background very quietly. We are an insurance policy for the State should a crisis occur, but we tend to take a very low profile, we sit in the back and we do our homework to ensure that we understand the market dynamics. Do I see us being engaged more frequently when there is a crisis? Yes, I do. Will that continue while this current crisis is ongoing? Yes, it will.

James Geoghegan (Dublin Bay South, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for boosting Dr. Bergin's profile by bringing him before the public accounts committee because he has done a great job in keeping a low one up until today.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is quite all right.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank Dr. Bergin and his colleagues for being here this morning. Dr. Bergin mentioned in his opening statement the obligation for a 90-day minimum reserve. Is there a maximum as part of that obligation?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No, there is no maximum. It is to store a minimum of 90 days' worth. Obviously, during an IEA release, when the Minister instructs us to release, that 90 days gets lowered, so we will hit 79.5 days by the time we have finished this IEA release, but no, there is no maximum. Different member states, interestingly, and different members of the IEA hold different levels, but the minimum is 90 days.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Has Dr. Bergin or the board considered in recent times an additional ten days, 12 days, 15 days, or is 90 days always going to be the minimum?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Our view is that 90 days is the appropriate level. It would be strange to start trying to build up stocks in a time of crisis. When on one hand you are releasing into the market, it would be very strange on the other hand to be trying to build up stocks again, so now is not the right time to build those reserves, given that you are releasing reserves to help the market. From time to time, yes, the agency does consider whether 90 days is the appropriate level. The IEA in its own right also reconsiders whether 90 days is the right level. There had been some discussions through last year as to whether that 90 days would be reduced to 60 days. If you were to look through all the crises that have ever happened within the industry, there have been only five releases in the IEA and all of those have been relatively modest in scale in that countries have released maybe only 5% or 10% of the stocks they have held. In terms of the level of stocks to be held in all the crises we have had over the lifetime of the IEA, no more than 10% of those reserves have been released. I accept that this time may be different, but that is the historical position.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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As regards the 10.5 days we are contributing to that release, is that coming from the internationally held reserve or from the domestically held reserve, or how does that work?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We do not distinguish. We hold 90 days, and that 90 days can meet either an international crisis or a national crisis.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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But, physically, when the actual unit is released, where will that come from?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We could release it from any of the storage facilities we hold. In the first round we will release out of the CSO tickets I referred to. We release those CSO tickets and they are currently held in Europe. We will release some of our on-island stock out of Belfast, and that is probably to meet an operational issue in that we have to come out of that terminal for other operational reasons anyway.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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As regards the tickets piece, I am not au fait with this. The international reserve we hold is not necessarily a physical unit in a terminal but more a communal agreement. Is my understanding-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No, it is not a communal agreement. We, as NORA, hold our own reserves. Regardless of the fact that we might hold them in Ireland or in Europe, it is physically NORA's product and it is the State's asset. We meet some of our 90-day obligation through these CSO tickets. A CSO ticket, to try to explain that as best I can, is effectively a call option. It is a paper contract that means that in the event of a crisis my counter-party will sell me oil that I can release to the market. We tend to hold a relatively small portion of our obligation by way of these tickets and we normally hold them for operational reasons. For example, we might be refurbishing a terminal or we might be doing maintenance on a terminal, so we would have to take out the physical product, but to ensure we meet our 90-day obligation we would take these paper contracts to meet our obligation.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Apart from the paper contracts then, how much are we looking at in terms of the cost of storage for the physical units that are stored internationally? Is that in comparison to the domestically held units? Is there an increase or a difference in how much it costs?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Physically, when we hold product nationally in oil terminals, or in oil terminals in Europe, we pay slightly different rates between Europe and Ireland. Ireland is probably at the higher end of the scale compared with Europe.

Ostensibly, we are holding physical molecules in oil terminals so we are paying rates to store oil. It is the same concept.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is cheaper, however. Is that what I am hearing? Is it cheaper to store it internationally than to store it domestically?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It is cheaper to hold the stocks in Europe than it is to hold them in Ireland, yes.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Who owns the terminals in Ireland?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

All of the oil companies. In Dublin, there are terminals owned by Circle K, Irving and Valero. We store product at those locations. We also store product at the Whitegate refinery, the Inver terminal in Foynes, the Circle K terminal in Galway, the LCC terminal in Derry and the Greenergy terminal in Belfast. We hold it in the industry oil terminals around the country.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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We are paying for that privilege.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Is domestic capacity for storage maxed out at 60 days?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

At the moment, we are utilising as much of the national capacity as possible. We are looking at options for new storage. For example, there are some old fuel oil tanks available in one location. We are talking to the relevant counterparty to see if we can take on those tanks, refurbish them and hold product on the island. We are continuing to look at old storage tanks that we might be in a position to refurbish and use for storage.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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With the release of these 1.6 million barrels, I assume NORA will have to go into the market to recoup those stocks over time. How does that process work? We are used to hearing about procurement in here. Is it the same process? Does NORA put a tender out and see who comes back? What arrangement is in place to draw those 1.6 million barrels back?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

When we buy and sell physical product, we tend to do so by way of a competitive bidding process. It is not quite a tender, although it is similar. We go out to a multiplicity of counterparties we deal with and ask them to bid either to sell us product or to buy product we have released.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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What is the timeframe to get us back to 90 days' supply? How long does NORA have to do that?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The timeframe to get back to 90 days will effectively be driven by the timing of the European Commission and the IEA. They have asked us to release reserves. At some point in time, once this crisis is over, they will declare it to be so and will then ask stock agencies to rebuild their stocks. That will happen at some point in the future but I do not know when.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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It is not set out in legislation that the agency has a 30-day or 60-day period.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. It is quite clear that, if we sell out, we remain at the reduced number of days' supply until the crisis is over and then rebuild our stocks.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I understand. When NORA goes to restore those stocks, is that funded from cash or asset reserves within NORA or is funding sought from the Department? How does the mechanism play out?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

At the moment, we are in the fortunate position of having cash reserves, which are held with the NTMA. We are in a position to use those cash reserves. If those reserves are not sufficient to allow us to buy the oil, we would have to borrow that money from commercial banks. We do not go back to the Department to look for funding.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The agency goes to banks to get a loan.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes. That is what the agency did in its early infancy stages as it built up the 1.7 million tonnes it owns. It went to the banks and borrowed money on the commercial markets. The levy has been used to repay those loans. That is why we are now in surplus. We paid off the last of those loans in 2017.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay. That is all from me. I thank Dr. Bergin.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses very much for coming in today. This is obviously very pertinent. People at home are now very interested in the agency. I have just a few questions on what has been said before I move onto the questions I had planned to ask, if that is all right.

With regard to the International Energy Agency, my colleague asked when stocks will be replenished. I assume the agency will do so when it gets the go-ahead but also when the price is right. Is there a particular price at which it has purchased in the past? Does it wait for a particular price or, if it is told to purchase, does it just purchase at market price?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We will wait until the IEA or the Commission advises the Minister to tell us to rebuild stocks. That is the process by which the timing is determined. As to whether we have a target price at which we buy, no, we do not. We are price takers. We both buy and sell at the prevailing market price of the day. If we sold oil today, we would sell it at today's market price. If we bought oil today, we would buy it at today's price.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does the agency have details of the price per barrel at which it purchased its supply?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We have a weighted average. It must be borne in mind that some of the stocks we have laid down, for example, in Bantry Bay or in the refinery, were laid down when the agency first started. We hold the value at cost on the balance sheet. The cost of those stocks was relatively cheap. The stocks we bought last year will be relatively more expensive. It is a weighted average.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is that average?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It is about €700 a tonne.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does Dr. Bergin have a price per barrel?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I am sorry; I do not. I would have to convert that price to the barrel price. I can get that information for the Deputy.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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A lot of people at home are asking what a metric tonne is. It was only described to me recently. It is like one of those plastic water barrels. That can help people to envisage it properly.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

If you have a home heating oil tank in your back garden, that would hold about a tonne of jet fuel.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Bergin mentioned that the agency uses the NORA levy to make the loan repayments.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The NORA levy was historically used to reduce NORA's borrowings, yes.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does Dr. Bergin envisage that levy being scrapped?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I am afraid I would have to ask the Department what it wishes to do with the levy. It is not for us to decide.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Bergin said ministerial agreement is needed to release oil, which NORA has been told to do. He also said that, when purchasing at market price, the agency draws down the funds held within the NTMA. Does the agency need ministerial approval to do that?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. Once the Minister asks us to rebuild our stocks to 90 days' supply, we have the vires to buy as we need to.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As a country, we have come through fuel protests and are still within a cost-of-living crisis. Energy prices and electricity prices are very high. People have taken a real interest in Dr. Bergin's organisation and the supply of oil to the country. During the recent fuel protests, did Dr. Bergin believe there was a risk to our national fuel supply? On a scale of one to ten, with ten being extremely worried and one being not so worried, how worried was he?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Looking at the risks, as I said earlier on, there was plenty of oil available. From our perspective, we did not perceive a supply risk in terms of oil availability. The challenge the State faced was in getting that oil from the terminal to the consumer. That is not really-----

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In saying that, is Dr. Bergin referring to the blockade at the Whitegate refinery or just the roads being blocked and people being unable to move?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It was a combination of the two. It should be borne in mind that it was not only the Whitegate refinery that was blocked. There were similar blockades at the Foynes terminal, which is an import terminal, and at the Galway terminal, which is another import point. There were blockades at the main point of production and at two points of import.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Did those blockades cause Dr. Bergin to fear any risks?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Our role is to ensure there are physical molecules available for distribution. Our concern was not around the availability of molecules but how they are distributed to consumers, which is outside our scope.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We have heard that there were discussions about fuel tankers being turned away, affecting our supply. Is that something NORA was concerned about?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Again, I will make the distinction in respect of supply. There was no shortage of supply. There was a challenge in distributing to consumers.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that. NORA's message is that, as far as it is concerned, had there been no blockades, there would have been absolutely no issue with oil supply in the country.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is correct.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does that remain the case?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The risk of distribution disruption remains an issue.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That remains an issue but the actual supply of oil in the country is not an issue.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

As it stands at the moment, no.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Did the protests and the blockades at the ports and refineries show a weakness in our fuel distribution network or is Dr. Bergin not prepared to talk about the network part?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

You cannot ignore the fact that it is a vulnerability in distribution.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the release of the 10%, that is something that happened very recently. Does that worry Dr. Bergin? Does he think we will see another release soon? Will our 90-day supply be enough? Will there be another 10% release in another few months or weeks? It is probably one of the first times we have done this release.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. We would have participated in the voluntary release for Ukraine, in my short time in the role. I stepped into this role just as the Ukraine war broke out. I will step out of this role in three weeks' time as regards the current crisis. The reality is that these releases happen from time to time. Do I see a further release? The IEA has indicated that at this point in time, it is not looking at another release. However, we have to realise that what is happening in the Middle East is absolute uncertainty and none of us has seen the likes of it before. Could the IEA call for another release? Yes, it could. Could we, at a national level, have a challenge in terms of supply? International production cannot be cut by 20% and we expect that life carries on as normal. At some point, the impact of that international cut of 20% will make its way to Ireland. It is likely that in the absence of a resolution we may be called upon to release national reserves.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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At the moment, in terms of our release, tickets are being given up rather than transferring as a physical release? Is that the case?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

As I said earlier, the first stage in meeting the IEA's call for a release is to terminate our CSO tickets. We are now down to about 2% of our volume held by tickets. It is likely that if there is another call for a release, we will move physical product.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Bergin mentioned the move from the storage facility in Belfast. As part of the release, Dr. Bergin said it is mainly on a ticket release. Is that right?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The first tranche of it will be ticket released.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is any of it from the Belfast facility?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Then the second part of it will be physical diesel out of Belfast, yes.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that part of the 10%?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is part of the 10%.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is NORA tendering at the moment?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We have not issued that tender yet. We would expect to issue it in the next week or so.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will that be available on the Irish tenders website?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. We do not do it by way of public tender. We talk to international fuel suppliers.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is it not a tender for oil storage?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. It is the supply of physical volume to companies.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Bergin mentioned moving from the oil storage in Belfast.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes, because that contract is terminating.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will NORA be replacing that?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. We will use that volume as part of the release.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The storage will not need to be replaced, but it will if we replenish our stock.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I will have to find somewhere else to store that stock.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When will that happen?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

When the crisis is over.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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When the crisis is over NORA will be looking for another location to store it.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will that be in the Republic or in another jurisdiction?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

As it stands at the moment it is likely to be in Europe.

Catherine Ardagh (Dublin South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I thank Dr. Bergin.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I worked with Dr. Bergin or Frank, as I would have known him, for a number of years, so we know each other quite well.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

A very small world we live in.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Exactly. We worked together in Circle K for a number of years. It is great to have Dr. Bergin here. When I heard that he was coming, I was happy it would be someone so knowledgeable and who knew so much. I know he would be an excellent witness and would be very forthcoming with any information on any questions that we would have. I am delighted to have him here.

I might move slightly away from what has been covered to aviation fuel. I want to use Dr. Bergin's breadth and depth of knowledge to discuss and maybe allay some of the fears and questions that people have about fuel and how it comes into the country. Kerosene is a major component of the fuel industry in Ireland. What oils does NORA hold in reserve?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Effectively, kerosene is the same product as jet fuel. It is called dual purpose kerosene. The country imports dual purpose kerosene. It can be used to heat homes. In heating tanks in homes, sitting in that tank is most likely jet fuel. The industry imports it as dual purpose kerosene, sends its off one way to the airport, under more strict controls, and sends it off the other way into the home heating market. Not all suppliers bring in dual purpose kerosene. The refinery, for example, only produces burning kerosene for the domestic market. All of our jet fuel comes in through the three terminals at Dublin Port, the Circle K terminal, the Tedcastle terminal and the Valero terminal. They all bring in dual purpose kerosene that goes to the airport or off into the heating space.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What sort of level of fuel would be jet fuel? A lot of the oil we get comes from Valero and Circle K and we are happy enough with that, but a lot of the kerosene comes from areas in conflict, such as the Strait of Hormuz. There would be more of a question mark around kerosene coming into Ireland more so than for petrol and diesel. Would that be fair to say?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It is fair to say. Most of our jet fuel comes in via the UK. It comes in from refineries on the west coast of the UK and is then supplied into Ireland. We are heavily dependent on the UK. In reality, most of that product is imported from various parts of the world. The war in the Middle East did have an impact on what comes into the UK. NORA does not hold 90 days' worth of all grades of oil. We are slightly long on diesel; we are just shy of 100 days. We are over on petrol and we have about 70 days of jet kerosene. We have the capacity to respond to either a jet fuel short or a kerosene short, depending on what is needed.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Okay. That is what I wanted clarity on. As I said, coming up to the summer season, there has been a lot of concern about holidays. People wonder will there be cuts in flights. From an Irish perspective, could NORA be there to facilitate if there were any gaps in the supply of fuel?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Again, it goes back to the model I referred to earlier. If there were a 20% cut in the international supply of jet fuel globally, we cannot believe we would be insulated from that. If there were a 20% cut in the supply of jet fuel, we would move to fill the 20% gap. The 70 days we hold now becomes 70 times five because we are only filling 20%, so in reality we have a full year in which NORA's reserves could meet that deficit

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is an issue that keeps coming up so I wanted to raise it. Will Dr. Bergin explain how the pricing from Valero might work? I am using his wider industry experience here. There is a question, if oil is bought two months ago, how we are dealing with the implications of the price increases there and then. Will Dr. Bergin explain the industry model, how it pertains to Ireland and how it would pertain to NORA when it buys supplies?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It is easy to answer the last one in that it has no impact for NORA. We have no role to play in market pricing. That is not within our scope. There is a risk that I am straying out of the role that I have as the CEO of NORA into talking about more general market issues.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I think it is worth Dr. Bergin explaining it while he is here.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The reality is that oil companies in Ireland import finished grades based on the benchmark price on the day. The benchmark price is set in the Amsterdam-Rotterdam-Antwerp region. That daily price effectively sets what oil companies buy their product at in Ireland on any given day.

If the international price spikes in a day, the national price will follow very quickly thereafter.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That question has been asked politically as to what the implications are.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Immediate.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I wanted Dr. Bergin to highlight that and how it comes out quite quickly. We buy at an international rate. They are buying the previous day's rate the next day. Obviously, there is a margin to distributors down the line out, whatever margin that might be. That is pretty much a set margin to the distributors.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Correct.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Those distributors ultimately set it out to the customer. What you are seeing is a very live price that ultimately the public are dealing with due to the model of the oil coming into the country. It is worthwhile highlighting that here today while NORA is here.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is my understanding of the market.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is mine as well. Dr. Bergin probably explained it once or twice to me.

I will go back to the financials. NORA may not carry quite a bit of cash, but is there a bit of cash held in its financial statements and investments? Will Dr. Bergin explain the financial investments and the reasons for the cash? Is that just a subjective number that floats up and down, or is it something where NORA holds a steady amount? I think I saw €100 million. Is that correct? Maybe I read it wrong.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We do hold a cash reserve. However, we have a policy of only holding cash within the months that is sufficient to meet our liquidity needs of that month. The balance of all of our surplus is then held with the NTMA on either short-term or long-term Exchequer notes. We do not actually have a reservoir or safe that has cash in it. We have a small amount of cash to meet our liquidity needs in a month. The rest is all held with the NTMA.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is like a clearing model where the NTMA clears if NORA is above a certain threshold. Is that correct?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. There is no cash sweep. It is us pushing money to the NTMA. It is not a cash sweep model. The way it is reflected in the accounts is if some of those have a maturity date within three months, they are deemed as cash. If they have a maturity date longer than 12 months, they are deemed as investments. It is an unusual way in which they are represented in the accounts.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I saw the investments and was wondering what type of investments NORA has in the accounts.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is just the termination date of the Exchequer note with the NTMA. That is what determines whether it is treated as an investment for accounting purposes or whether it is treated as a cash equivalent.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I think there was over €200 million in that at the year end accounts. It is €100 million in cash and €217 million or so, just off the top of my head.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. There is no cash. It is €100 million held with the NTMA on short-term Exchequer notes versus longer term Exchequer notes. We do not sit on large amounts of cash.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I think it was noted in the financial statements. It must have been a cash equivalent. Maybe that is where it was.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It is written as cash equivalent.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is fine. As regards the number of people, NORA has eight people and is looking for an extra person. Is that it?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The organisation has a sanction for nine. We currently have eight. We will recruit for another shortly.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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How many members are on the board?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

There are five external board members appointed by the Minister. The CEO makes up the sixth.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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How regularly would the board meet? What sort of communications would there be with the Minister relating to the issues?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The board meets six times a year. There is a representative from the Department on the board, Marc Kierans. I, as the CEO, along with the chairman, meet with the Minister at least once a year. I could not tell the Deputy how many times I talked to the Department during these days, but I would meet with the Minister formally once a year along with the chairperson.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That covers nearly everything. If there is anything else, I can come back in. I am happy enough.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses are all very welcome here today. In terms of NORA, the levy and the income from the sale of stocks, etc., from NORA, is that completely ring-fenced for the Climate Action Fund?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The NORA levy is collected on our behalf to meet our expenses. The fact that at the moment we have surplus over our expenses and are paid into the Climate Action Fund, we have no line of sight of what the Department does once we transfer it into the Climate Action Fund.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Last year, as Deputy Neville mentioned, €100 million was put in.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We transferred €100 million into the CAF.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was in 2024. In 2025, was it €80 million?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We will probably do another €97 million. We will transfer €97 million in 2025.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does Mr. Bergin have any idea how it is going and how much it will be this year?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Given that we will not receive the NORA levy for a number of months, it is probably going to be of the order of €60 million for 2026.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is the reason it will be down?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We have not collected any of the NORA levy. The CAF can only be transferred on the basis of what is invoiced and collected by way of the NORA levy.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It is generally around €100 million a year that is given to the Climate Action Fund.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

On a steady state and modelling, yes, we would expect about €100 million.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What year did it start?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We started in 2020.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has there been approximately €100 million every year?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It was €28 million in the first year. Overall to the end of 2025, we will have transferred about €490 million to the CAF.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I must submit a question in relation to what that has been spent on.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

It is scheduled to be included in a future meeting on the Climate Action Fund.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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If you are paying into the NORA fund, eventually, we would be hopeful that there will be more climate action measures that will come out of that funding. How will that affect NORA in the long run? Not as many people will be reliant on kerosene and diesel, if they have electric cars and use electric pumps in their houses. How will that affect NORA in the long run?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

If fossil fuel consumption falls, as the State drives for renewables, the NORA levy will fall. However, at the same time, if that falls, then the overall consumption of fossil and renewable liquids will fall. Therefore, our stockholding obligation will fall and our cost base falls. If the Deputy looks at the financial projections in the strategy statement that she has a copy of, she can see that for the next five or ten years that the agency will have sufficient funds to be able to run itself.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the storage facilities need to be reduced at that stage?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The way in which we structure our storage contracts is a combination of both short-term and long-term storage agreements. As the obligation rolls over, we would cancel our shorter term contracts for storage. We have a very flexible model in how we take our storage.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to the storage facilities, Dr. Bergin mentioned a contract in Belfast is finished. Why would that be finished?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The terminal operator has an alternative use for the asset. We will not be storing our product there.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In relation to stocks, Dr. Bergin mentioned that stocks have been sold off. Will that go into the Climate Action Fund as well?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. The proceeds of the sale of inventory does not fall within the scope of a transfer to the Climate Action Fund. The Climate Action Fund only collects NORA levy income that has been invoiced and collected within the year.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One of the documents mentions palm oil derivative, POME. Is that an issue? Is that in storage here?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We do not store renewable fuels at the moment. All that we store is fossil fuel.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

NORA has no issues in relation to that derivative or anything in relation to our oil reserves.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. That issue came up because we are the administrator of the road transport fuel obligation scheme. We would have identified that there were some risks associated with the use of biodiesel produced from palm oil mill effluent.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

NORA has no issues in relation to that. I think nearly everybody has asked everything that I wanted to ask. A tax clearance certificate was mentioned. What happened during 2004? A single payment was made to one supplier of €10,500 without a tax clearance certificate.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

If the Deputy does not mind, I will ask Ms Mullan to take that question.

Ms Lisa Mullan:

This was a payment for an insurance policy that NORA had.

When the invoice was received, the person who actually looks after tax clearance did not realise tax clearance was required for that and just thought it was an insurance policy payment. It was not, therefore, put on our list at the time for tax clearance certificates. As a result, it just was not checked at the time of payment.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would NORA check tax clearance certificates for everybody that it deals with?

Ms Lisa Mullan:

We do, including all foreign suppliers.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Over what amount?

Ms Lisa Mullan:

Everything over €10,000.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Anything over €10,000, okay.

Ms Lisa Mullan:

We tend to take a look at the aggregate up to €10,000, so we would look at the accounts and see how much we have actually paid in the year to date. We would do that consistently now. As a result of that, one payment was made before the tax clearance certificate being checked. Then, as part of the normal month-end review of accounts, it was noted that the tax clearance certificate was not with the payment. Then, the file was noted to the Comptroller and Auditor General so that when it came to the year-end account, we could actually provide the information and ensure that the note would be made into the statement of internal control.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Very good. Going back to the Climate Action Fund, Dr. Bergin said that in 2025, NORA transferred €97 million. Why was there a deficit in 2024? Was there a deficit for NORA?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

If we think about NORA and just the broad numbers, we take in €120 million of levy income. We spend €40 million in running the company, so we would expect €80 million of a surplus. If we transfer €100 million to the Climate Action Fund, we have a deficit.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why would it transfer more than it had?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

As we are sitting on some reserves, that allow us to run down our reserves in order to transfer the money.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. If there is so much in the levy, does Dr. Bergin believe that the Government should be charging that levy? That is an additionality on to people's kerosene and diesel and petrol prices for their cars and for oil and-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The Deputy might not like the answer I am going to give her but, effectively, it is Government policy as to what it chooses to do by way of levies. It is not within our gift.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government has made that decision to charge the additionality on top of kerosene, oil and diesel.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We are asked to charge a 2 cent per litre levy, which we charge and recover.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

NORA will have reduced that on-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There is a provision in law for a levy to be applied, so it is a matter for Government to determine.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That has been reduced, however. Somebody said it was 0.1 cent. It has been reduced.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Yes, I mentioned that in the-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It can be reduced from time to time.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It can be reduced when the need arises or when we would want to do so. If Government wanted to reduce it, it could reduce it. It is 0.1 cent at the moment.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It is.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Out of the 0.1 cent, NORA is still sending over €100 million to the-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. This year, in 2026, we will transfer probably €60 million because we will not be getting the levy income coming in.

Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is okay. Those are all my questions. I thank everyone very much.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the witnesses for being here. As one of my colleagues said, we apologise for raising Dr. Bergin's profile, but a certain gentleman on the other side of the Atlantic has probably raised his profile rather than us. When NORA's accounts came before us, I realised it is Dr. Bergin's first time appearing before the Committee of Public Accounts. Is that correct?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It is.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I apologise for it being so easy, but that is probably as a result of Dr. Bergin's good financial management. I suppose I am struggling a little bit to get to the bottom of those finances. The income from the NORA levy funds NORA-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----with a surplus then that is transferred to the Climate Action Fund.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Correct.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

NORA retains about €40 million.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Roughly; it changes. It could be €41 million or €42 million.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can Dr. Bergin give us a rough breakdown of the €40 million in approximate terms? What is NORA spending that €40 million on?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

About 90% of that €40 million is spent on storing oil in oil terminals or running the three terminals we own and operate.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Dr. Bergin is saying that 90% does not necessarily go on the products or on purchasing oil. He is talking about it going on the storage and management of it.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The €40 million is just running the company. If we have to buy oil, that is separate to all of that.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Dr. Bergin might tell me how that works-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

When we buy oil-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----in terms of the financing of it.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

If we buy oil, we buy it from our cash reserves.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. NORA's website points me to eTenders, for example. There are quite a number of tenders with regard to repair of jetties, lining of tankers in Poolbeg and Tarbert and so on. I am not seeing anything in the millions of euro in terms of eTenders.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We rent storage in oil terminals. Let us say we rent storage in the Circle K terminal in Dublin. We have a contract with Circle K that states that we can hold some of our stock in its terminal. That rental agreement does not go through eTenders.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why is that?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We have a waiver for that type of activity.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the source of that waiver?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The source of that waiver is in the legislation. We have a waiver out of the legislation for both oil procurement and oil storage.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is eTenders, which we spoke about. There is also an obligation on NORA to publish purchase orders above a certain figure. Again, there is very limited spending under that category.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

There is.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am just saying that a very significant amount of public money is being spent on the purchase of services and products that is not visible in the way it normally would be for another organisation.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is probably a statement of fact, yes.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As a member of the body here that is responsible for overseeing public money, I am at a disadvantage because I cannot see a lot of the spending that NORA does.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is correct. We buy product that does not go through eTenders, but we competitively bid for that. We-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

How do I know that?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is a good question, and I do not have an answer other than that is what I am tasked to do, which is to buy, sell and store oil.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know. I do not in any way take away from Dr. Bergin's bona fides. However, this committee, essentially, never relies on the bona fides of the witnesses who appear before us because that is when things go wrong. What we want is good governance. How do I know that Dr. Bergin is purchasing options for storage at the best possible rate? Is there a competitive tender process for those? How can I have more visibility of that? Second, when Dr. Bergin is purchasing oil, how do I know he is purchasing it at the best value from the taxpayers' perspective?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

One of the mechanisms to give the Deputy that certainty is that any expenditure over €2 million must be approved by the board. In effect, if I am renting storage anywhere, be that in Dublin, Galway or Amsterdam, I need to get approval from the board and demonstrate to the board-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As the CEO, Dr. Bergin has the ability to spend up to €2 million of public money without the board's approval.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Without board approval, but normally good governance would mean that I would say to the board------

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would argue that is sort of unprecedented in the public sector.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I do not know what happens in other public sector bodies. All I know is the brief I have been given.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know many of them do not spend €2 million on the say of one individual. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General a question. Is there a comparison he can consider where one individual can spend up to €2 million without either board approval or ministerial approval or a vote of the Dáil?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

No, I cannot think of another situation.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

These are questions for the Dáil itself. They are not questions for Dr. Bergin. They are questions as to the oversight and governance we have over NORA and how we assess that governance. I want to highlight it because when I started to look at where the money was, I could not see it.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I accept that.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is really important because this is a levy that is being imposed on people who are really hard-pressed. It is really important that people should know where that levy is going and whether there is good value for money for it. While a significant proportion of it goes to the Climate Action Fund, a very significant amount of it is retained within Dr. Bergin's organisation.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will move on to the second issue. Dr. Bergin referenced that the chief executive is a member of the board. Is that correct?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is correct.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Again, I think that would be unusual. Would that be fair?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Again, I can only speak to the remit I am given. When I took up this role back in 2021, these were the terms and conditions under which I was employed.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of course.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes, I sit on the board as a board member as a board member.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

From my experience, the chief executive would always be somebody apart from the board because the board should be in charge of the strategy of the organisation and the chief executive carries out those operational issues. Ultimately, the chief executive is responsible to the board. My question is, how can Dr. Bergin be responsible to himself?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

To be fair, I would report to the chair in terms of how I perform my function as the CEO.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Am I correct in saying there was an advertisement for the position of chief executive recently?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Correct.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I suppose my concern is the salary for that. How was that set?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The salary is set by the Department. It was set with their approval. It is set. At the moment, it is pegged to the assistant secretary general pay scale.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay, it is at assistant secretary general level. How are HR issues in regard to the CEO managed?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is managed by the chair of the board.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But he has no opportunity to discuss that with the board without the CEO present.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. The board meets regularly without the executive. That is quite clear. When the board meets without-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay, the board meets without the executive.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It has the right to meet without the executive. It does so twice a year and, for that session, I step out of that meeting.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I might go into this a bit more because my understanding is either you are a member of the board or you are not. I am unclear on that.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I am a member of the board. It is very clear. I have a voting right the same as any other board member but, for this particular area, the board is quite clear it meets without the executive and I excuse myself from those meetings.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

There are other cases where chief executives are members of the board for normal decision-making purposes but there would also be situations where the chief executive would then step outside of the meeting.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If I refer to my previous question in regards to the scope of spending that NORA has within its control, all of that is a reflection of the industry that it is operating. NORA is a public body operating in an international multi-trillion dollar industry. On the assistant secretary general level salary, how many people are employed in NORA?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

In NORA, there are eight people. We have sanction for nine. We employ eight.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I suppose it is interesting that you would have an assistant secretary general level having responsibility for only eight people. Is that essentially reflective of what is needed in order to attract experience from the industry?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

"Yes", is the answer to that.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As a board member, Dr. Bergin has discussed this already in advance of his successor. Did that conversation happen, or is it a salary that is established and there is no discussion?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

In this discussion, I would have excused myself because obviously I am conflicted but I know that the board sought a salary that was in excess of my current salary but that was not sanctioned by the Department.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Does Dr. Bergin know what the request was?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I do not.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could Dr. Bergin provide that to the committee?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I could ask the chairman to provide that. I do not have access to it.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there a reason the chairman is not with the witnesses today?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

He was not invited.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. That is fine. Normally, we would leave it to witnesses to bring people. It was just a question.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

The standard statutory arrangement is that it is the chief executive who is accountable-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Of course.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

-----and chairs of boards are generally not set up as accountable persons.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They often attend. Would that be correct?

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

They do. Usually, it is a situation where maybe I would have drawn attention to something in relation to the remuneration of senior management or whatever.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I want to be clear that I am not casting any aspirations on any individuals. This is about us having more transparency. There is a bit of work still for us in terms of transparency around how the money - the vast bulk of that €40 million - is spent and how we can ensure that there is transparency of expenditure of public money. We will reflect on that in our report. I thank Dr. Bergin for his answers and also for his contribution this morning. It has been very informative.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The Deputy is welcome.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am afraid I am guilty of suggesting that NORA come before us. Hands up on that one. It is absolutely the right thing to do. So far, it has been a very interesting session and I thank Dr. Bergin for coming before us and thank him for his transparency and straight answering here this morning.

On the figures, the income in 2024 of €123 million is effectively what is collected through the NORA levy. The operating costs are approximately €40 million or €42 million. Can I get a breakdown of that? Obviously, that is not for the purchase of oil; it is for running the organisation. It is for storing the oil and so on.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Correct.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Can Dr. Bergin give us a further breakdown of how that €40 million is spent? How much is spent on storage, for example?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

If my recollection serves, in 2024, on storage we spent €33 million.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Therefore, the bulk of it is on storage, at €33 million.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Correct. Then there is-----

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

That figure is included in note 3 of the operating costs. Storage costs are at €37.7 million.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes, €37.7 million. That includes amortisation of capital spent.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That €37 million is both international and national-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Correct.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----but is it correct that the majority of it is spent on fees for private companies storing the oil?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The majority, yes. We hold and operate three of those terminals. That holds 320,000 tonnes out of 1.7 million tonnes.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is self-managed. That is just operating costs but in terms of payments to-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

They would be in that €37 million.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They would be in that €37 million, but the bulk of it is to private organisations, effectively, private oil companies.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Correct.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would put it to Dr. Bergin that they have an vested interest in ensuring that we have a supply of oil in the country in the event of a catastrophe or a major shock. Is it not peculiar that we are paying those oil companies to store our reserve of oil when, if there was a shock and if there was a cut-off of supply, they would be the ones who would feel that pain more than anyone?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Some of it is stored with oil companies that are not active in the downstream business. For example, if you look at what we hold in the terminal in Bantry, Sunoco, which owns that terminal, is not involved in the downstream business. You do not see it at all in terms of the local market but it owns and operates that terminal.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know, but if there was a major shock to the oil supply it would be impacted. I suppose the point I am getting at is whether they should be asked to shoulder more of the cost rather than us paying them storage costs for something that they ultimately will benefit from if there is a shock and the supply is suddenly cut off.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Not necessarily. If you are purely an oil storage facility, then all you have is like renting a building. In effect, you rent space in that building. If the market around you is doing all sorts of things, it does not change what you get by way of a rental income for an office or a building. Some of the industry and some of the stocks that we store are not in oil companies that are involved in the downstream business.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand that point. I would still argue that, paying over €30 million to private companies for protecting our reserve of oil in the event of a major shock, they should be shouldering more of that responsibility than we, as a State paying them, are. Ultimately the consumer is paying them through the 2% levy. That is my point.

On the breakdown of physical storage versus the ticket contracts, is there scope to look at that ratio? Obviously ticket contracts do not involve storage costs. Am I correct in saying that?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

You could look at a split between ticket costs and physical storage costs. There is a downside to tickets in that you do not physically own the product.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I understand.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

You are relying on enforcing a paper contract. That means that your security of supply is somewhat at a lower level of risk. There is a certainty when you take out a contract to store oil in a location. You know the fee you are going to pay and can fix that out. The cost of those compulsory stock obligation, CSO, paper contracts varies widely depending on the shape of the forward curve for fuel and I have seen occasions where you could buy a ticket at approximately $1 per tonne per month. I have seen occasions where you would pay $7, $8 or $9 per tonne per month.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am caught for time. What is the breakdown in terms of the 90 days reserve, in physical versus the options that we have?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

At the moment, at the end of April, we are holding 2% of our stock by way of CSO tickets.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is that low.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is all, yes. We tend to try to minimise. Our policy is to minimise CSO ticket cover and, in preference, to hold physical.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is that because it is seen that there is a higher risk in terms of supply?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Correct.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But 2% is quite low. Obviously, if that was go up to 10%, it would mean less cost in terms of storage.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It may not necessarily be less cost because it depends on what the-----

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It depends on the price you are buying at.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The market price.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

But NORA looks at that.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We do.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

NORA considers that in terms of value for money.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

People will probably be surprised there has been no release of oil yet despite the situation we find ourselves in since the end of February.

What are the criteria for the release of oil? What are NORA's criteria for the release of some of that 90-day reserve?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Sorry, I missed that. Try it again. What is the-----

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What are the criteria?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The criteria.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

When would it be released?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

There are two criteria.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why would it be released?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

One of the criteria is if the IEA seeks a request. That is quite clear. It is an international release. If there is a national issue, that dialogue takes place between NORA, the oil industry and the Department. We would use the model I spoke about earlier to look at what oil is stored on the island and see if there is a tightening of that supply or if we are running short.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On that national decision, outside the IEA, when was the last time there was a release based on a national decision?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We released stock in 2023 out of Poolbeg.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What was the reason at that time?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Dublin was running short of diesel and the refinery was running short of diesel. We released diesel to meet both of those requirements.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Why was it running short of diesel?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The refinery had a maintenance challenge and there was a tightening of supply in Dublin on foot of the Ukraine war.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Over the past 20 years, how many times has there been a national release of the 90-day reserve?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Over the past 20 years-----

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am asking for a rough figure. Are we talking about a handful of times?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I might say a handful of times.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The criteria vary. Dr. Bergin gave an example. The price at the pump is never going to be a reason for the release of the 90-day reserve.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If the price goes to €3 per litre, it is never going to spark the release of that 90-day reserve.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No, because-----

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I think there is a public view that it would.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I am sorry to alter the public's view but if we release oil, we do so at the prevailing market price of the day because we would have to potentially-----

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Replenish it.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

-----replace it at the same price.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is only for supply issues as opposed to pricing issues.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is correct.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If the criteria were met and we had to start using our 90-day reserve, I presume rationing would be a part of the process. How would that look? It is a 90-day reserve at the level of full consumption. The 90-day reserve is at current consumption levels.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I presume we would not start eating into that full whack straight away. There would have a national discussion to say that we need to start reducing our consumption because we now have to start dipping into our reserves. Is that how it works?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It would depend on the scale of the issue. If you had a catastrophic failure of all supply into Ireland, then you would look at the myriad options available, one of which would be to start to release from the reserve because that is what you have a reserve for. You would equally look at your oil contingency plans and potentially look at allocation schemes to try to see where you would prioritise what you have by way of oil, yes.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is a curious question. In terms of the physical oil reserve, is there a lifespan on it?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is an interesting question. Technically, there is not. We, for example, have held oil in some of our terminals for more than 15 years. For example, the product that is held in Belfast at the moment, which we will sell later this year, was laid down in Belfast in 2011. We will sell it as a fully marketable product. We have a mechanism whereby we go out and test the fuel every 12 months to ensure that it is still on spec. We have not faced any issue where the quality has declined.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Has oil even been written off oil? Has there ever been a scenario where the oil was no longer usable?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. We have sold it. What we will normally do is to seek to refresh the oil. It is not quite written as a policy, but our practice has been to rotate oil every ten-odd years and nothing older. This particular one-----

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Stock rotation.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

-----has been held for that long.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will ask about the future. In 2023, 98% of the country's energy came from fossil fuels. In 2024, that was down to 81%. Our dependence on fossil fuels as a country is reducing, thankfully.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It is.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Why are we not looking at the 90-day reserve in the context that our fossil fuel consumption is proportionately less in terms of our energy use?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The 90-day reserve is based on the import of the past 12 months. The reality is that as fossil fuels are consumed less and less, our reserves will decline.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a moving target.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

There is a decline. If the Deputy looks at the strategy statement, he will see what the assumption is as to what NORA's stockholding obligation will be over the next five to ten years.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that point, but if we are down to 80% in terms of our overall energy use-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----I would still argue that our dependence is less. Therefore, do we need to be at the same level in terms of a 90-day reserve? I understand it is a moving figure but it is still a 90-day reserve.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It is a 90-day reserve.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Does Dr. Bergin understand the point I am making?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

To be fair, that is a decision that is challenged on a regular basis by both the IEA and the EU Commission because bear in mind that our 90-day obligation is under an EU directive.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Bergin has expertise in the oil sector in which he operates. Given what is happening internationally, we hear that even if the war were to end today, there would be significant impacts on the supply of oil for the foreseeable future. What is his opinion on that point? Even if it were to end today, how damaging have the events of recent months been to our supply of oil for the next year or two?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The reality is that the conflict has had two significant impacts. You currently have a significant tranche of ships that are effectively tied up, doing nothing and sitting in the Strait of Hormuz. At this point in time, it is very hard to estimate the level of damage that has been done to the entire infrastructure in Dubai in the UAE and wherever else. That remains an uncertain number. I have seen reports out of the IEA that show that the recovery period, even if the Strait of Hormuz were to be reopened, will be months and not immediate. Have I anything more expert than that? No, I do not.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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What about the price of oil internationally? It is not an encouraging outlook.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

On the price of any commodity, I am afraid that I usually say, "Sorry, I am not going to answer that one." If I knew what the price of any commodity would be, I would not be sitting in this chair.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have a number of questions. I welcome the witnesses. It will be the first and probably only time for Dr. Bergin. He is due to finish up at the end of the month.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I resign at the end of the month, that is correct. I am gone.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We wish him well. We have been given a lot of data. I want to delve into the cost of the leases. It costs approximately €40 million or €41 million per year for the operation of NORA. We know that it owns three facilities in the State, two in Dublin and one in Kerry. The rest is all for leasing. Has there been a recent cost-benefit analysis in view of the cost of providing the storage ourselves as a State in comparison with leasing the entirety of the-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

As I said, we lease three facilities, two in Dublin, in Ringsend and Poolbeg, and one in Tarbert, County Kerry. Those three initial leases were all done with the ESB, where we took the old ESB oil storage tanks, did our refurbishment and now hold our oil there. The last one in Tarbert has now been migrated or novated over to SSE because it now owns the plant in Tarbert. In total, we spend approximately €4 million on those leases. Effectively, we are leasing the majority of that from another State body.

We did the refurbishment of Poolbeg and that project was completed in 2019. As you would expect, under most of the governance rules we had to do a post-investment review and another review five years later. Both of those reviews have been completed and both stated that the project demonstrated excellent value for money for the shareholders. Do we assess whether we get good value for money out of leasing? In that context, yes, we do. The question is whether we should hold more by way of what we control or not. As I said earlier, some of the projects we are looking at are situations where we would take on that storage obligation and run that facility. We constantly look for opportunities where we would take it. We control it. The downside is that if your obligation rolls over, you could be left with a stranded asset. You are trying to balance between long-term certainty and flexibility in terms of exiting if you need to.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The question really is about the cost-benefit analysis as opposed to the rental of storage space, as in the Netherlands, Spain or some of those other countries, and those lease arrangements that Dr. Bergin cited with the former ESB facilities. Has a comparison been done in terms of cost-benefit-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We do benchmark the costs that we incur by having leased facilities versus straight rental storage. Do we look at that? We do.

The board looks at that on a regular basis to assess whether it is the appropriate mix.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. Bergin cited the five incidences where oil had to be released from the reserves. He cited the illegal invasion of Ukraine and the pressures around that. Is the release due to take place over the next while included in that five? He might just give us those other examples.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No. The five other ones were Libya, Hurricane Katrina and the Suez might have been the third, but I cannot quite remember because some of them go back into the 1980s, so my apologies for that. Before this recent release, it is my recollection that only five took place in prior years.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I just want to touch on the 2% levy that makes up NORA's funding, and the transfer over to the Climate Action Fund. Dr. Bergin cited the figure from 2020. Correct me if I am wrong, but he said in 2024 it was €490 million, and then €97 million from 2025 brings it up to €587 million.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No, it was the other way around. It included 2025. Including 2025, it was €497 million to be exact.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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How is the figure transferred to the Climate Action Fund arrived at?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It is framed in legal, so Ms Mullan might answer that question.

Ms Lisa Mullan:

The Climate Action Fund is based on the income that is invoiced and received within the financial year. Because of the way the levy is done, which is a month in arrears, between January and October is what is available for transfer to the fund.

Prior to that, somewhere around October, I have discussions with the Departments of communications and public expenditure to decide what is the best amount of money that should be transferred into the Climate Action Fund, taking into account our costs and what we have in place for the rest of the current year and for the coming year.

Technically, if we were looking at €120 million taken in and levied in a year, the most that could be transferred into the CAF would be roughly €100 million.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I suppose that changes. When NORA was established in 2007, the levy was introduced to fund the purchase and storage of strategic oil stocks and then the legislation was amended back in 2020 to facilitate the transfer of the funds, as directed by the Minister. This was a huge change, and it strikes me as simply another carbon tax that has essentially been imposed on people since 2020.

Ms Lisa Mullan:

We would not have an opinion on that. If it is framed in legislation, we transfer the money.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Anyone looking in would say, "Yes, it is an additional carbon tax". As it stands, people pay 16.4% a litre in carbon taxes, and an extra 2% on top of that going into a Climate Action Fund. It strikes me as an additional carbon tax.

Do the witnesses agree that the agency's role has fundamentally changed since 2020?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I would argue the function of NORA has not changed at all. The way in which levies are collected is at the discretion of the Government.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Looking at the amounts over the past five years, particularly the years around Covid, the levies seem fairly static, and then there was a significant dip in 2022 and 2023.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is correct. Covid was 2022 and 2023.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That was the peak of Covid.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

If the fossil demand falls, and if the Chair looks at one of the graphs I gave the committee in the briefing document, he can see the hole that was punched in the fossil demand. Therefore, that demand all spills through into the levy.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

Covid was 2020 and 2021, but the levy is retrospective to the previous years.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Sorry, the levy was changed; that is correct. Ms Mullan has reminded me we changed the levy in those years. Again, it was one of these reductions in the NORA levy. It was not Covid, apologies.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I am starting to question myself now in terms of the years.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No, that is very good, I am sorry.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We all try to put Covid to the back of our minds.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Correct, I am afraid you will say Covid and I wonder what year was Covid.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I want to touch on Ireland's energy security and what role NORA plays in that. There have been many concerns regarding our energy independence. Does the agency have a role in our energy security?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

As I might have said earlier, our 90 days of reserves is effectively an insurance policy on the oil side. In that context, do we have a role to play? Yes, I think having that comfort, buffer, blanket or insurance policy, whatever you want to call it, provides a degree of certainty and security for oil supply. Given the dependence we have on oil, it is appropriate we have that security. The fact it is held by way of physical stock, physical oil we own and can release at short notice, is a significant role we play in energy security.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Does NORA have a view or does it carry out any assessment on the impact data centres might have on that energy security? We know the huge additional pressures data centres have put on the energy sector.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No, we probably would not step into that space. Our view is to provide some expertise on the oil side, which we feed into the Department in terms of it making its assessment on broader energy security.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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On the renewable heat obligation, it is expected that NORA will become the competent authority for that scheme. When is that expected to happen?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

My understanding is that the heads of Bill have been produced at this point in time, and the necessary legislation has to work its way through the process. From what we can understand, the expectation is that this will start in 2027.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Has any work been carried out by the agency itself?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We have done two things. We have taken on part of an additional resource. We were seven but we have taken on an additional resource in this renewable space, and we have begun some of the IT development work in preparation of being the administrator of the scheme so, yes, we have been preparing the groundwork for that.

We continue to work with the Department in advising on some of the legislative issues that may arise, so we provide input to the Department for environment on that.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is there an expectation of additional staffing or funding requirements for NORA?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It could lead to that in the longer term, but as I said, I believe the agency is reasonably well-funded and I do not see it as an issue in the longer term.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Once that additional role is filled, Dr. Bergin thinks the staff complement should be sufficient.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes, I do.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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What about the funding of €41 million that it costs to run the organisation?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It will increase because we spend a little bit of money on external support. That may bring a little more expenditure, but within the overall scheme of the resources available to the agency, I do not see it as being an issue.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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One final area I want to touch on is biofuels and bioethanol. Dr. Bergin cited the example of fuel being stored in Belfast that is going to be released as part of this. At what stage is that bioethanol mixed with the fuel? Does NORA have a role in that or is it purely a monitoring role?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

There are two things there. To separate, bioethanol will go into petrol and biodiesel will go into diesel. Out of our reserves, we play no hand, act or part in that because it is the oil companies that put the product onto the market.

There are blend obligations for the oil companies downstream of us. As part of our renewables function, we monitor how much ethanol, diesel and HVO is placed on the market. We have to ensure the oil companies meet their obligation to blend a share of renewables.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Will Dr. Bergin paint a picture of the monitoring and what the enforcement looks like? Does it mean going out and carrying out fuel sampling?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

There are a number of ways in which we fulfil that role. Oil companies are governed by voluntary schemes, which are EU-approved procedural schemes. The name is a bit funny, in that they are called "voluntary schemes", but there are standards and procedures which oil companies must adhere to in order to be certified to these voluntary schemes. We then take a look at the documentation produced under the regime of voluntary schemes. We go out and supervise certification bodies to make sure they are certifying correctly. We look at proofs of sustainability documentation to ensure they are adequate, appropriate and correct. On a risk-based assessment, we go to oil companies and audit their books to ensure they are reporting correctly. There are a number of layers or aspects to our supervisory role.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Have there been cases where the mix has not been right? What-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We have not identified any such thing at this point in time, not in the years I have been here.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. That concludes my questions. We have about ten minutes left. Our witnesses want to try to finish by 12.30 p.m. Do any members have any supplementary questions?

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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This links to a conversation I had. Dr. Bergin mentioned oil that was purchased 15 years ago being released at the current market rate. He talked about commodity price and so on. That would make for a significant surplus or profit for the organisation. Equally, there may be times when they purchase when the price of oil is high and they are forced to release; for example, the current release. How are those gains and losses recorded? How much does the forced release of inventory cost? Are the witnesses having to sell inventory below the price they purchased it at?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The proceeds of a sale or purchase of any oil go through the accounts as any other set of accounts would handle it. The balance sheet moves up or down depending on whether oil is sold or bought and the profits made appear accordingly. There is nothing unusual in how we transact our purchases and sales of oil.

The Deputy's second question related to-----

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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It is not unusual, but it is difficult to see the impact of a transaction.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Not quite. The accounts are perfectly transparent about whether we make a profit or loss on the sale of our stock. The accounts will demonstrate that. It is quite clear.

Ms Lisa Mullan:

There is a line in the accounts on the profit and loss on the sale of strategic stocks.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That would be for a financial year.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay, excellent. Could a forced release, where the IEA decides there should be a release, trigger a loss?

Ms Lisa Mullan:

Yes.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It could.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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My question was this: how much will this release cost?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We do not know until we know how much we will sell the product for and we do not know yet know what the price will be when we sell in a few weeks' time.

Ms Lisa Mullan:

It also depends on how much we paid for it when we bought it.

Paul McAuliffe (Dublin North-West, Fianna Fail)
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We are used to dealing public bodies that have public money. Essentially, NORA is trading in a commodity. It is a very different environment for the Committee of Public Accounts.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We act in a commercial space, yes.

Mr. Seamus McCarthy:

For information, in 2024, the gain on sale of strategic stocks was €55,000, but in the previous year, it was €15.9 million so it will be very volatile and will reflect the market. I would expect to see a gain if there are sales at the moment.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

We would like to think that if we traded at today's price, irrespective of when we bought it, we would generate a gain.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Where would that gain go?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It would go into the reserves of the agency and then effectively to the NTMA and be held by it.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

After that, NORA does not follow the trail any further.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It is still ours. We do not follow the trail of the fuel.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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With regard to the €15.9 million, for example, or if NORA were to make €20 million this year, what would happen to that profit in theory? Who would benefit ultimately? Does it go back to the taxpayer? Will the witnesses follow it through?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Ultimately, if the agency were ever to be wound up in the future, the sale of any oil at either a profit or loss would effectively move back to the State.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What about the annual gain?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The annual gain sits as surplus cash within the NTMA.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I had a question in my head to ask and it was just touched on. It is regarding biofuels. When we were going through my questions earlier - this only popped into my head later - we talked about kerosene, diesel and petrol. Where do biofuels fit into what NORA does or are they even part of what it does? Is it a step the refineries deal with? Is it the companies that buy and use it?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

The blending of biofuels takes place further downstream from us. We release the fossil oil and the oil industry blends the biofuel into that product. We do not store biofuels because they are not long-term stable, with the exception of HVO. It could be argued that HVO could be long-term stable. We choose not to hold biofuels as part of our portfolio. As the share of renewables grows, we will probably revisit that decision and may at some time in the future opt to hold HVO in a storage facility.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Dr. Bergin used the word "stable". What does that mean?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I said "long-term stable". If ethanol is kept in a tank, it is susceptible to water ingress. Water and ethanol do not make a pretty mix so unless an ethanol tank is rapidly turned and continuously churned, having it in long-term storage is not ideal. If FAME is kept in a storage tank, it should be turned on a regular basis. Taking FAME and locking it in a storage tank for 15 years is probably not a good idea.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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As regards the biofuels as a component, they are bought. Who do they typically come into Ireland from? Dr. Bergin mentioned Valero and Circle K as the people who bring in the oil and have the refineries. Are they also the people who bring in the-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

They also bring in the renewables.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There is no separate agency or company that brings those in.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

There is a biodiesel producer in New Ross, Green Biofuels Ireland, GBI, which produces about 30,000 tonnes of biodiesel. Carbery produces some biodiesel or buys and blends bio-ethanol so there are a few indigenous, but small, producers of biofuels.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I do not want to stray from the topic, I have been asked a question in my constituency office about why the price of biofuel, or what is called-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

HVO.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The price of HVO has increased in recent months in keeping with-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Yes, it has. That is a statement of fact.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Why is that increasing when it is not coming from oil fields in the gulf? As I said, I do not want to stray from the topic, but at the same time, is there-----

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I suspect if the Deputy were to ask the producers of HVO why the price of HVO has tracked the price of diesel on the way up, they would say that if they recognise it is a drop-in replacement for diesel, if the price of diesel goes up and someone wants to use some of their precious HVO, the price of HVO goes up.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is market forces.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I suggest it may be market forces, yes.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is interesting. I thank the witnesses for their time. It is great to relive some of my occupational past. It was good to see Dr. Bergin again.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I know we are under time pressure. In terms of the country's carbon commitments and our transition to renewable energy, what is NORA's corporate long-term plan?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Sorry, I have to ask the Deputy to ask the last part of that question again.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Where does NORA see itself as an organisation in ten years? We should be using less oil and transitioning. What will be the role of NORA?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I think the role NORA currently plays in storing oil will continue for the next 20 or 30 years.

There are sectors of the economy where it is particularly hard to replace fossil fuels. We must bear in mind that our obligation is both on the fossil fuels and on the renewables that are blended into the fossil fuels, so as we change our share of renewables in fossil fuels, our obligation does not move because we are obligated on both. In that context, I see NORA playing a role for the next 20 or 30 years.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That means we will be somewhat dependent on oil.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

If the Deputy is asking my personal opinion, that is my personal opinion.

Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is what I asked. I thank Dr. Bergin. We did not realise that he was in the last stages of his current role. I wish him all the best.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Thank you.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have several questions on the whole issue of biofuels. In the last couple of years, we increased it in petrol from 5% to 10%. Looking at the situation internationally, in places like Brazil, it contains up to 30%-plus of biofuel in the mix. Why are we so low in terms of that ambition? Dr. Bergin said he foresees 20 or 30 years with this dependency, but internationally, I think Europe and Ireland are behind the curve in moving towards biofuel.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

I might suggest that in a European context, we are ahead of the curve. The biofuel blend obligation that we place on the industry is probably ahead of a number of our European colleagues, although it may not be quite to the Brazilian level. In terms of compliance, the direction is coming from RED III, the third iteration of the renewable energy directive. In effect, that is what determines what the biofuel blend obligation should be. The Department of Transport then takes RED III and transposes it by way of its policy statement. The Department of Transport issues a policy statement on how it sees the trajectory for renewable fuels out to 2030 and beyond. In many ways, it is a departmental policy as to what it sets the blend rate at.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I might ask that question of the official from the Department. Where do we see ourselves in five or ten years in that regard?

Mr. John Burke:

I am sorry. Biofuels come under the Department of Transport, not the Department of energy.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

Not bad, John.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Before we conclude, I want to touch on the issue of jet fuel. The levy is not imposed on jet fuel. Is that correct?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

That is correct. There is no levy on jet fuel. It is deemed an international trade and, therefore, it does not attract a NORA levy.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is policy.

Dr. Frank Bergin:

It is another policy decision, yes.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Would NORA have a view on that?

Dr. Frank Bergin:

No, it would not.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. That concludes our engagement for today. I thank the chief executive officer and the officials from the National Oil Reserves Agency for attending today. I would also like to thank the officials from the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment and the Comptroller and Auditor General for their attendance. Is it agreed that the clerk seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed. I wish Dr. Bergin all the best in whatever the next chapter brings. I thank everyone for attending today.

The committee will next meet on Thursday, 14 May 2026, for an engagement with the National Treasury Management Agency to discuss the financial statements from 2024.