Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 7 May 2026
Joint Committee on Defence and National Security
Defence Sectoral National Development Plan 2026-2030 and Defence Procurement: Department of Defence
2:00 am
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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The joint committee is meeting to discuss the defence sectoral national development plan 2026 to 2030 and defence procurement.
We are joined today by the following officials from the Department of Defence: Ms Aileen Nolan, assistant secretary, strategic change and capability development; Mr. Jason Kearney, director, emergency operations and infrastructure oversight; Ms Fiona Lafferty, principal officer, procurement and acquisitions branch; Mr. Cathal Hunter, assistant principal, procurement and acquisitions branch; and Mr. Eoin McDonnell, principal officer, property and management branch. On behalf of the committee, the witnesses are all very welcome. The format of the meeting is that I will invite Ms Nolan to make an opening statement. This will then be followed by questions from members of the committee. Each member has a seven-minute slot to ask questions and for witnesses to respond.
I advise members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any member participating via Microsoft Teams that prior to making their contributions to the meeting, they formally confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.
Both members and witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Lastly, as the witnesses will probably be aware, the committee will publish their opening statement on its website following the meeting.
I now invite Ms Nolan to deliver her opening statement.
Ms Aileen Nolan:
I thank the committee for inviting us to address it today. Since my last appearance at the committee, I have changed roles within the Department and now have responsibility for strategic change and capability development.
I very much welcome the opportunity to update the committee on the defence sectoral national development plan, NDP, investment plan 2026 to 2030 and to discuss defence procurement. In my part of the opening statement, I will cover the defence sectoral investment plan and our approach to procurement, with a particular focus on the procurement of defensive equipment. I will then hand over to our director, Mr. Kearney, who will cover infrastructure-related procurement.
As the committee knows, it is a time of intense shifts in our geopolitical environment and the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces are working continuously to adapt to this new reality. Ireland recognises the need to take our own security and defence, as well as our responsibility toward our like-minded partners, seriously. We acknowledge that no state acting alone can address the entirety of existing and emerging security challenges. We also recognise the changed security landscape in Europe arising from Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine, as well as an increase in hybrid and cyber threats and challenges.
The Government is committed to strengthening the capabilities of the Defence Forces to respond to this changed landscape. The Government has demonstrated this commitment to our defence with a significant increase in national defence spending in the past few years. This sustained increase in defence investment is reflected in significant increases in both current and capital expenditure.
In terms of capital expenditure, the defence sectoral national development plan, published last December, sets out the Government’s record €1.7 billion capital investment in defence over the next five years, an increase of €600 million, or 55%, on the previous baseline. The plan confirms that this funding will be utilised effectively to address long-standing capability gaps, modernise core infrastructure needs and ensure that Ireland continues to deliver on its defence responsibilities and international commitments. The funding will enable targeted progression on key elements of Government commitments within level of ambition 2 - enhanced capability - objectives, as outlined in the Commission on the Defence Forces report.
This plan specifically details the key defence capital investment projects and programmes across the period from 2026 to 2030, given the available funding allocation, current level of contractual commitments and internal project and programme prioritisation schedule. Under the plan, programmes due for progression in 2026 include the priority military radar programme, subsea domain awareness, various force protection projects, the H145 helicopters and armoured fleet programme, plus various infrastructural and other projects to include Defence Forces IT, transport, engineering and ordinance requirements.
The Department has developed and expanded its internal capital investment structures and frameworks significantly over recent years and now has comprehensive planning, procurement and governance frameworks and policies in place to support increasing levels of ambition and expenditure. I am pleased to confirm that, under the new and expanded structures and strong governance framework in place, progress is being made across all programmes in line with the timeframes set out in the defence sectoral plan.
The Department’s procurement and acquisitions branch is responsible for the procurement of defensive equipment, including aircraft, naval vessels, armoured personnel carriers, weapons and ammunition for the Defence Forces.
These procurements are carried out with the assistance of subject matter experts from the Defence Forces. The procurement of defensive equipment is governed by EU defence and security procurement directive 2009/81/EC, as transposed into Irish law by SI 62/2012. As committee members will be aware, the Department sent the committee a briefing note, which I hope members found useful, providing a high-level overview of the defence and security directive and why and how this differs from normal public procurement. We are happy to answer any further questions that committee members may have in this area.
In terms of current planning for defensive equipment, the Department maintains a rolling equipment development plan, EDP, encompassing a programme of sustained equipment acquisition across the Air Corps, Army and Naval Service, as identified and prioritised in the strategic framework and the recently updated detailed implementation plan. There are currently over 130 projects on the EDP with a total €3 billion in rough order of magnitude costs. This includes 15 new projects added to the EDP in 2026 covering a range of capabilities, including transport, information technology and medical. EDP projects delivered in 2025 include the C295 military transport aircraft, the Falcon 6X strategic reach aircraft and the completion of the mid-life extension programme for the P50 class naval vessels LÉ Róisínand LÉ Niamh.
In an increasingly complex security environment, issues such as supply chain resilience, security of supply and the maintenance of essential equipment are central considerations to defence capacity. Procurement of defensive equipment is, therefore, not solely about acquiring platforms or systems. It is also about ensuring that those capabilities remain available, serviceable and mission-ready throughout their life cycles. Ireland is heavily dependent on overseas suppliers for critical defence technologies, communications systems, cyber tools, surveillance equipment and specialist electronics. If those supply chains are disrupted, as has been seen previously, the State would have significantly limited domestic fallback. Increased collaborative procurement and capability development with partners is becoming a feature of Irish defence capability planning to increase our knowledge, subject matter expertise and skills. This approach will serve to improve our defence interoperability to harness and enhance effective value-for-money procurement and capability development at the EU level.
In the case of defensive equipment, the appropriate procurement strategy is decided on a project-by-project basis, including a government-to-government approach, most notably for some larger and complex capability projects; collaborative procurement through the European Defence Agency, EDA, used for chemical, biological, radiological, and nuclear, CBRN, suits and some ammunition natures; and public tender competitions published on the Official Journal of the European Union, OJEU. In the case of complex programmes where we need to procure a full capability rather than a specific piece of equipment, government to government is now the preferred option where it is not possible for industry alone to provide the full capability. This is the case with the military radar programme and the armoured fleet programme.
In terms of collaborative procurement, almost all member states are increasing defence spending simultaneously. Industry capacity is constrained, delivery timelines are long and many critical systems are supplied by a small number of manufacturers. This is increasingly a seller's market. The EU response is to encourage joint procurement, long-term partnerships and co-ordination rather than purely transactional competition.
The procurement routes being used for defensive equipment are lawful under EU rules, reflect current market realities and are shaped by Ireland’s structural position. The priority is not competition for its own sake but timely delivery of sustainable capability aligned with national and EU defence objectives.
I will now hand over to Mr. Jason Kearney, director, who will cover infrastructure-related procurement.
Mr. Jason Kearney:
I thank Ms Nolan. I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity to discuss the Defence Forces infrastructure programme. I am joined by my colleague, Mr. Eoin McDonnell, principal officer, who oversees the management and delivery of the infrastructure programme on a daily basis.
The five-year infrastructure programme was launched in 2020 and represented a first for the Department and the Defence Forces, as it involved a strategic shift away from the ad hoc and localised nature of investment decisions for the building stock. The plan was based on requirements identified in a survey of all Defence Forces installations and on the achievement of the high-level goals required of us in the White Paper.
Since the launch of the plan, significant progress has been made modernising the Defence Forces' built environment. The capital expenditure for building works in military installations and barracks across the country for the five years to the end of 2025 was approximately €170 million. The ambitious nature of the programme can be seen by comparing the Department's allocation for the built environment of €18 million in 2020 with a 2026 provision of over €83 million to develop, upgrade and maintain Defence Forces stock. This is the highest level of investment in Defence Forces infrastructure in the history of the State. More specifically, in terms of accommodation, projects at a combined value of approximately €49 million had been completed and 775 beds provided by the end of 2025. From the start, we have targeted investment at accommodation and gymnasium projects with the aim being to make it more attractive to recruit and retain new recruits.
Regarding the development of infrastructure to support enhanced capability over the longer term, we have commenced the development of master plans for each installation, which will future-proof them for the next 20 to 30 years. This approach will identify from the outset infrastructural requirements in line with capability development for each installation, with an associated prioritisation of projects and a phased timeline for delivery. The first master plan for the airside at Casement airbase was completed in February 2025. The master plan focuses on works specifically relating to increasing fleet and flight capacity. In total, the master plan for Casement airside proposes development options equivalent to over €200 million of investment in today's prices. Work has now begun on a landside master plan in Baldonnel, which will incorporate all regular requirements of military installations not specific to Air Corps needs. In addition, the master plan process for the naval base in Haulbowline is now nearing completion. The remaining master plans for the Curragh Camp, the Defence Forces Training Centre, 1 Brigade and 2 Brigade will be progressed this year and early in 2027.
That was a quick and short overview of the Defence Forces infrastructure programme to date. My colleague and I would welcome any comments or questions that committee members may have.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I thank both witnesses. We will now go to the members.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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The work the witnesses are doing is very important. We had a useful discussion last week about how procurement in this area had different considerations than other forms of procurement. Very often in this area, there are discussions of spending in terms of GDP, and while that is not irrelevant, more important is that Ireland is procuring the infrastructure and equipment it needs according to our own very particular defence requirements.
The Irish Government and the Department of Defence have entered into an arrangement through the SCORPION programme for armoured vehicles. I understand that some of the associated equipment is related to artificial intelligence, AI, which can be used to target humans and infrastructure without human input. Is Ireland going to be procuring AI systems and technologies that have that capability?
Ms Fiona Lafferty:
I thank the Deputy for the question. For his awareness, on the SCORPION programme we are only in preliminary discussions with our preferred partners. I do not have that type of information. It is very technical. I would not be able to disclose that information for security reasons in this public forum.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is important that we get an update in that regard at the earliest juncture. We clearly have a need for additional armoured vehicles. They are a part of the expansion that is needed. For new technology such as what I mentioned, which have particular considerations, it is important that there be some level of oversight. I would appreciate an update in that regard.
That brings me to another question. There are many particular considerations in defence, including geopolitical and long-term strategic considerations, that apply in a different way than in other sectors. Ethical considerations are also important, particularly in such a complex sector. Is there an ethical procurement framework? I did not see mention of it. Is there a context in which the Department has an ethical framework in terms of from whom it purchases equipment and weaponry?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
I will answer at the high level and then pass to Ms Lafferty, who is the expert.
In terms of ethical considerations, we procure under the defence and security directive in the main. As part of that framework, there is not at EU level ethical procurement in the same way as there would be the drive with the classical procurement directive. There would not be that same drive. At the moment, that is not included in the defence and security directive. I think that is correct.
Ms Fiona Lafferty:
We follow the Office of Government Procurement, OGP, public procurement general framework on ethical procurement in relation to integrating environmental, social and anti-corruption standards into public spending where appropriate. That includes transparency, accountability and fairness with a strong focus on social responsible procurement to encourage employment opportunities, human rights compliance and fair worker treatment. We look at that, in consideration, when we are looking at suppliers.
In terms of the OGP certification, etc., in relation to ethical procurement, we look at the ethical standards in the anti-bribery and anti-corruption measures as well. We look at that in terms of the supply chain.
We also look as social and responsible public procurement. We look at the guidelines the OGP has for public buyers to address social impacts such as promoting employment opportunities, the disability Acts and fair worker conditions.
A lot of our supply chain is overseas and we rely on looking at that through the lens of other countries as well. Getting that information can be difficult.
We have some processes there to look at companies as well. We have a company employed to help us with that.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that the Government cannot do anything contrary to EU procurement law but that does not mean that we cannot have, in addition, ethical frameworks and our own specific ethical protocols. We should examine.
In August 2024, the then Minister for Defence, who is now the Taoiseach, said that we would not be procuring military equipment, defence equipment or contracts with Israel. Have any such purchases been made in recent years? Do we have any ongoing contracts with Israeli companies for weaponry?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
Since that International Court of Justice, ICJ, advisory was published in July 2024, the Department has included provisions in its tender documentation regarding the right to reject offers from third countries, including Israel. We have not procured any defence equipment from Israel, we do not currently have any contracts with Israel companies and we have no plans to procure anything from Israel.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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In the past year or year and a half, Ireland purchased Airbus H145 helicopters. I understand that in some countries the associated weaponry involves equipment that is typically purchased from Israel. Can Ms Nolan confirm that the four Irish Airbus H145 helicopters will not contain such equipment?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is Ms Lafferty's understanding. Could she be more unequivocal on that?
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is really important. Some of the most horrific scenes that we have seen anywhere in the world in recent years have been committed by the IDF in Palestine. We should have nothing to do with any of the companies that were involved in facilitating that genocide.
That is not the only consideration. That is the only set of companies that we should have an eye to. I understand that this is complex and that this is not equipment that can be bought anywhere. It is a complex world but we have to have a framework. It is not enough to say EU law on procurement is this. We cannot breach that but we need to look at a framework to ensure that issues like that do not arise. From what Ms. Lafferty is saying, it does not arise. I hope that is the case but we need to have a framework for it and a particular set of protocols. I ask the Department to examine that.
On a final question, I beg the Chair's indulgence because I have to go to defence questions, which, unfortunately, are scheduled for 10.30 a.m. as well. The medium lift helicopter replacement programme in the Report of the Commission on the Defence Forces has been put back under the revised evaluation plan. What was the reason for that? Clearly, that is important in terms of surveillance of our seas and our skies, which is one of the most important considerations.
Ms Aileen Nolan:
It is in the defence sectoral plan under the national development plan, NDP. The Deputy is correct. The spend is for 2029 and 2030 now in the plan. It was a prioritisation. We got available funding through the NDP. We got €1.7 billion, which was great, but, according to the defence policy review and Government policy, certain other projects, mainly the radar programme, took priority. Maritime security is really important. That is not to say that the helicopters are not important. They are in the plan. We are in the planning process for it. We will get them but it was a prioritisation based on the funding available.
Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South-Central, Sinn Fein)
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There was not enough money. I thank Ms Nolan.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I thank the officials for being here and thank them for their presentation.
I compliment the infrastructure side. The work that they have managed to achieve in the various barracks around the country, in Haulbowline, etc., is extraordinary. It is of the highest quality and I compliment them for that. Mr. Kearney showed us around Haulbowline last year. We visited Grangegorman recently. The work that has been done is incredible and the soldiers will be very comfortable. The sailors will be comfortable with what the Department has done and I compliment it. It is always good to start on a positive note.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Am I correct that Government policy is to follow level of ambition 2?
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Page 34 of the report of the Commission on the Defence Forces refers to helicopters. It states, "It makes eminent sense to maintain Defence Forces’ capabilities that can also deliver nonmilitary outputs using dualuse capabilities and, in this context, the Commission recommends that, within LOA 2, two additional medium lift rotary wing aircraft should be acquired, increasing the current medium lift fleet to eight helicopters." In terms of the capture of the ship off the south-west coast where we had but one helicopter to take special forces out to that ships, it would make eminent sense to have purchased two additional AgustaWestland 139s. I think that is what we were told us in Baldonnell. I am not a aviation expert.
The H145s that have been purchased, from what I can see on the Internet, are not medium lift aircraft. I understand they would not be capable of carrying of a full section of special forces at any stage. They are armed, which is a bit odd given that they were to be dual use, particularly to aid local authorities and other Departments. I am not sure what missiles we will need to fire with those particular helicopters.
I am trying to figure out why we bought a smaller helicopter and why we are paying so much. I understand the contract was €128 million for the four. I go back to the Department's own submission for the search and rescue, SAR, and I see at that time two AgustaWestland 139 helicopters were to be purchased for €17.5 million each. Using today's prices and allowing for inflation of approximately 2% per annum since 2021, the two helicopters cost approximately €42 million. It appears that the Department has gone off and bought helicopters that were not recommended in the Commission on the Defence Forces report and the helicopters it bought are not suitable for the job that they are supposed to be able to do. A section of special forces cannot be transported on them if they need to capture a ship or something in the future. We are paying way over the odds. I ask the officials to answer that.
I want to talk more about procurement. I might not get to it this time but we will get to it in the next round.
Ms Fiona Lafferty:
I will take that. I thank the Senator for that. It is a valid question and a valid observation. It is important to emphasise that the Commission on the Defence Forces sets the overall capability objectives and the Government approved the implementation process, which explicitly provides for flexibility and responsiveness in how this capability will be delivered.
This means procurement decisions can evolve over time to reflect operational experience and requirements while still remaining fully aligned with the intent of the commission's recommendations.
On air domain capability – this is the important point – the high-level strategic objective identified by the commission is increased availability, capacity and operational output. The decision to procure the four H145 helicopters reflects an assessment regarding how the Air Corps is tasked. The types of missions involved, such as the training of pilots, do not require medium-lift capability. The fleet of EC135 helicopters is ageing and needs to be replaced. This involved a prioritisation decision in the context of ensuring helicopters would be available to train pilots. The training is currently outsourced to other jurisdictions and the pilots are going overseas. The decision was critical to ensure helicopter lift capability would be available. The decision to procure the helicopters is fully aligned with the capability objectives set out by the commission, given flexibility built in through the implementation process.
The approach is not to augment the legacy capabilities. The AW139 helicopter fleet is due to be replaced by the super-medium helicopter fleet. It will be regarded as legacy capability. The aim is to deliver the most effective, sustainable and useable fleet for Ireland's capability needs in the future, with particular emphasis on training. The platform is simply a different route in the context of where we want to go. It delivers more availability and operational output. The overall fleet capability will have increased because the Air Corps will be able to carry out missions more often, with more availability. This is what is relevant to Ireland's needs.
Four aircraft deliver more capacity in practice than two on paper. Availability is the key constraint as opposed to lift capacity. I refer to the training helicopters that will replace the EC135 platform, which was not specifically mentioned in the commission report. It is an ageing fleet, so this is where the prioritisation comes from. I hope that explains it for the Senator.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Can I stop Ms Lafferty there?
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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The purchase price is one thing but the fact that we are changing the platform from AgustaWestland to Airbus means that all the pilots and technical staff will have to be retrained. All of these things have to be considered. The purchase price of €128 million, which, if I am not mistaken, has been published on the website, does not cover the full cost. I see that Cyprus bought six of the same aircraft for less than the price for which we bought four.
Ms Fiona Lafferty:
I thank the Senator for that. To explain about the airframe itself, it is a matter of the initial training. The AW139, which is a different and larger, more capable helicopter in the sense of airlift capability, requires different training. Pilots will start on a smaller helicopter and become proficient on that before training to utilise a different type of airframe. There are safety considerations as well. All of this is managed operationally by the Air Corps according to its own planning function.
The Senator referred to how another jurisdiction procured. It all depends on the equipment put on an airframe. These are militarised airframes, and there are different options for some of the equipment. That can influence price. I believe we carried out a very good, hard negotiation with the supplier and obtained quite good value for money in the context of what we have procured. I have no difficulty in explaining that.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Clearly, the Cypriots did a much better job negotiating.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I understand that it is a higher specification.
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. Last month, the Defence Forces confirmed to the Joint Committee on Artificial Intelligence that they are using AI to monitor the movements of suspicious ships. Recently, there were news stories about AI software accessing sensitive information without permission. Does the Department have a framework or guidelines on the procurement of AI tools to ensure they do not ultimately negatively impact our national security?
Ms Fiona Lafferty:
I should also explain the procurement structure within the defence organisation. The Department is responsible for purchasing military equipment, but there is also equipment that the Defence Forces purchase themselves. Their communications and information team, defence experts, procure it. We can ask them for information but they might not provide it because of security sensitivities.
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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Would they feed back to the Department on what they procure and how it is operating?
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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AI is not new but it has had a certain impact across society and the State. While I do not want to say we are playing catch-up, I believe we need to do our best to stay on top of it. There has been a significant financial allocation for defence in the national sectoral development plan, but is it sufficient to address the many pressing defence capability gaps? Although there has been an increase of €600 million, is that enough to get us to where the Department believes we should be, or do we need to go further?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
It is on public record that, during the review of the NDP last year, the Minister and the Department requested more funding than we ultimately got. I am sure it was the same across all Departments. Everybody sought more than they got. We looked for extra money. We got €1.7 billion, which represented a significant increase. This was great but we could probably do with more. We got what we got through the NDP and have prioritised based on that allocation.
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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Last week, Dr. Davis from DCU argued for a degree of exceptionality in procurement on the defence side in light of the unique nature of defence compared with the areas of responsibility of other Departments. Do the witnesses believe there is an argument for a more multi-annual and exceptional approach to defence procurement than to the procurement of stationery and all the other things that are bought, even health equipment? The argument is that defence has a longer horizon and that technologies are changing so quickly. Is there an argument for considering a different model for defence procurement overall?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
There is a different model in place through the defence and security procurement directive and we have different rules. We are currently operating within a five-year time span under the NDP. That is good. It is probably better than what we would have had in the past. The NDP is good in this regard. On whether we could do with a ten- or 15-year timeframe-----
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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Dr. Davis's argument was that it should be longer than five.
Ms Aileen Nolan:
He is absolutely right that major platforms you buy tend to have 20- or 30-year timeframes. We need to consider overall costs. On the cost of procurement generally, the procurement cost of a major defence equipment platform is probably only 40% of the overall life cost, meaning that over the 20 or 30 years another 60% in costs will be incurred.
We have certainty of capital for five years. That could probably be longer. If it were longer, it would be better for us. Some certainty on current costs would also be very useful because maintenance costs must be met to sustain capability. We are seeking allocations in this regard on a year-by-year basis.
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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There have been reports of a delay in the delivery of anti-drone technology we were expecting to have in advance of the EU Presidency. Does Ms Nolan have a comment on that delay? Are there delays we are not aware of in delivering other technologies we were expecting for the Presidency?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
On the counter-drone technology, or counter-unmanned aircraft systems, C-UAS, the Deputy will probably remember that we were here looking for a Supplementary Estimate last November. That was passed by the Dáil in December. We now have a contractual arrangement for the C-UAS, and we are on track to deliver it. It will be in place by 1 July. The confusion arose because the detailed implementation plan had a date of September for C-UAS, but that date related to the continuing roll-out of further aspects of it. What we sought in the Supplementary Estimate, which the Minister promised in December and which is on track for delivery on 1 July, will be delivered.
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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It will be delivered.
Duncan Smith (Dublin Fingal East, Labour)
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Those are all my questions.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the witnesses for being here and for their presentations. Ms Nolan mentioned earlier in her contributions about the geopolitical situation. When she sits down and plans what equipment the Department needs in a three- or five-year period, how does that fit into the procurement plan if the geopolitical situation changes and the requirements differ at that point?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
Since the Commission on the Defence Forces and our own organisation capability review, we have now implemented a capability development planning process to bring capability development planning for the Defence Forces in line with best practice. What that means effectively is that we have set up a unit within the Department - a civil military unit. There are three phases of capability development, including an upstream phase, midstream phase and downstream phase. The upstream phase looks at what the current defence policy is. It will look at what is in the defence policy review, which was done in the past year or two. That defence policy review looked at what the security environment was and what the threats were. The then Government decides, based on those threats and security environment, what the roles of the Defence Forces are and what it wants the Defence Forces to do.
The capability development then says that now we know what the Defence Force want to do, let us see what capabilities they need to do that. We are going to have a capability development programme which will look forward for the next 12 years published this year. That programme will identify within the first four years the capability needs and decide what the requirements are in the next four years. There will be a capability development plan for the next four years produced quickly after that. That is a rolling programme. As soon as we have done that, there will be another plan. Within four years, there will be another capability development programme and another capability development plan. It rolls the whole time. It is agile and it looks at changing requirements. It keeps pace with defence policy, which will keep pace with the changing security environment.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Nolan for that. In relation to shared security concerns that we might have with our nearest neighbour, the United Kingdom, how much conversation goes on between both regarding a potential threat to our airspace that would be a joint concern? Does that feed into defence equipment that might be necessary to monitor that? Do we have a conversation with them when we purchase as to what the needs of both jurisdictions might be? Does the procurement then fit into that?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
At high level, we have an MOU with the UK in relation to defence and security. There is co-ordination that happens. I would not be able to go into the details in terms of what information is shared. Our own threat assessment would feed into defence policy and capability development.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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So conversations with our nearest neighbour are taken into account when the Department is planning out what equipment might be necessary.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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Fair enough. The other thing that we touched last week was that there is substantial spending at €1.7 billion here. We are trying to max out as far as we possibly can the SME sector in this country and build up a capability here to manufacture as much as we possibly can. Is there anything stitched into procurement in relation to the SME sector in this country?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
I will take the first part and pass onto Ms Lafferty in relation to local participation. Regarding the SME sector, the Senator is quite right. We do not have a defence industry per se, but we have a sector with high tech, people who are good at cyber and people who are good at space. We have lots of stuff going on in the SME sector at the moment. We have recently set up a defence EU industry engagement unit within the Department specifically retailed to industry. We have strengthened in the Irish economy. We have a lot of money in the EU. What we are trying to do is trying to see how we can match those strengths to those EU instruments while at the same time to help the SMEs in the Irish economy and to help defence capability. If some of these companies - for example, there are approximately 150 companies in Ireland that are operating in the space area - could develop products that would be useful for the Defence Forces. We are looking out. We specifically have a programme of work now to look out to talk to industry, try to match them up with EU funds and to see if they can develop capabilities that we would use or can they get included in the supply chains for bigger contracts in the EU.
In relation to our major defence equipment platforms, I will pass over to Ms Lafferty. We are looking to have local participation in relation to maintenance contracts and stuff.
Ms Fiona Lafferty:
On-island sustainment is very critical in terms of security, resilience and sustaining equipment platforms. In the armoured fleet programme, we are looking and engaging with Irish industry to see how we can have continuation of operations with good response times in terms of the equipment to make sure it is sustained here and to have a self-reliant defence system here.
Regarding maintenance and repair, there may be some elements in supply chain components. There are also technology integration upgrades. We carried out a very good simulation programme in the past year. An Irish company was involved with a prime contractor to develop a dual remote weapon simulation for training. That is an example of support in that area. We have seen more of a focus on that. It is a good news story. It is building sustainable partnership between defence and Irish enterprise. That is our focus when we are looking at the bigger programmes to make sure we transfer the economic benefits for Ireland.
Robbie Gallagher (Fianna Fail)
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That is good to hear.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. As I am a little bit under the weather today, I ask the witnesses to excuse my hoarse voice. I wish to follow on from Senator Gallagher's point about our local industry and ensuring that we have a collaboration with Irish SMEs, as well as education also having an opportunity to be involved in building the capability that is required in the Defence Forces and national security. In the opening statement, Ms Fallon said:
In an increasingly complex security environment, issues such as supply chain resilience, security of supply, and the maintenance of essential equipment are a central consideration to defence capacity. Procurement of defensive equipment is therefore not solely about acquiring platforms or systems, it is also about ensuring that those capabilities remain available, serviceable and mission-ready throughout their full life cycle.
That speaks to a desire and a need for a long-term thinking. How much input, if any, does the Department have in ensuring that we have the personnel to operate the equipment that we speak about when we talk about procurement, particularly when we reflect on the €110 million that is being paid for aircraft maintenance because we have lost the maintenance personnel that we traditionally had in Baldonnel?
From a more positive point of view, I agree with the Department's sentiment and reinforcing why local industrial participation becomes a standard requirement in our defence procurement process. Ireland is currently progressing a state-to-state agreement with the French Government for a significant upgrade of our armoured vehicle fleet. How was the assessment of need for those armoured vehicles arrived at? If we look at how the nature of warfare has changed in the past four years, when we are thinking about investing State money to increase our defence capability, I made the point last week that, given our neutral status, a state can only truly be neutral if has to the capability to fully and properly defend itself. The nature of warfare is less of the armoured personnel carriers rolling down the street and much more of the drones. Is it the policy that the witnesses are referring to from the Department of defence that determines what the Department procures? From our conversation last week, it was very clear that procurement is a tool that is fed by departmental policy.
Will Ms Nolan outline for us where the policy might need to change to ensure we can procure the items, equipment and personnel that we need to ensure our overall defence capability and readiness is at the level where it needs to be given the current instability in the world? We always refer to level of ambition 2, but I would love to see if that could be a rolling document because even now it is out of date. The focus from procurement seems to be on level 2 because that is the policy that is coming from the Department. If Ms Nolan can offer me some direction on that, I will be most appreciative.
Ms Aileen Nolan:
I will start off in relation to the policy and level of ambition 2. I will then pass on to Ms Lafferty regarding the armoured fleet programme. The Deputy is quite right, the Commission on Defence Force's report was published in 2022. That is four years ago. The Department had a defence policy review since then, and there was a further security environment assessment at that stage. We have also had the maritime security policy since then, so it is not just one policy document. Our capability planning is not static. We are not necessarily just looking back at the Commission on Defence Force's report. As Ms Lafferty explained earlier, the commission outlined what we should be doing at a high level, but that changes depending on the security environment, and that does actually happen. The defence policy review is part of an ongoing cycle of policy reviews. The next policy review is starting shortly in terms of-----
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for interrupting, but I am just conscious of the time. Earlier in the session, did one of the witnesses not say that the document the Department is aiming for is level of ambition 2?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
Level of ambition 2 is about enhancing capability. We have capability gaps, and it is about enhancing capability. It is not necessarily about the procurement of a particular helicopter. It is actually saying that we need capabilities based on what the Government has decided that the Defence Forces wants to do. That is how we are planning now.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Is the Department referring back to the recommendations that the Commission on the Defence Forces made?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
At a level where the commission said move to a level of ambition and this is what we think. However, as Ms Lafferty said, the commission basically said that when the Department gets to procuring equipment, it needs to look at how best to meet the capability need at the time. The level of ambition 2 and the commission guide the Department, but we also now have further policy documents, such as other defence policy reviews and the maritime security strategy. The defence policy review basically said that the priority should be on maritime security, and that is why military radar has been given priority. It is not static based on the Commission on the Defence Forces' report. I am not sure if I have explained that right, but things change. Policy is updated to reflect the changing geopolitical situation.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Is there enough money in our budget to deliver in a timely fashion all of the capability that is required? The world is getting a little bit smaller every day. We can very clearly see in every household the direct impact of what is happening in Iran. We are quite exposed, especially in light of our upcoming Presidency of the EU. That is not to say that work has not been done, and I admire the work that has been done. It is also not a reflection of anyone sitting here, but we need more work to be done. Why is it not being done? Is it procurement? Is it a lack of funding? Is it lack of policy or strategy? I often feel that we are confusing process with strategy. What is the longer term plan? Going back to what I said at the start, we need longer term thinking on this. We cannot be thinking about our defence in five-year terms. We need to be thinking about it in ten-year terms. We also need to work cross party on that because when we talk about protecting our State, surely we all agree, no matter what party we are from, that the State and the Irish way of living is worth protecting.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Is that for the public at the moment?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Will that be later in the year?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
It will be published later on the year. It will look out to 2040 and is a 12-year programme. Within that programme, there will be a four-year plan on what we will concentrate on in the next four years. That is a rolling programme, and it is in line with best practice. That is how capability planning is done for lots of other defence forces.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I apologise for my confusion, but what happens with the recommendations that are already in the Commission on the Defence Forces' report?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
Where relevant, the recommendations are built into that. The capability in planning programme looked at policies, defence policy review, the commission and the DIP. All of those programmes, where relevant, will be brought into the capability development programme and that will effectively be what we are going to do for the next 12 years, capability development wise.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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What level of ambition does Ms Nolan foresee because we are talking about it terms of level of ambition?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
That is because the commission put the "level of ambition" label on it. The capability development programme will look at what capabilities the Defence Forces will need for the next 12 years for it to be able to do what the Government has set out that it wants it to do, what policies it has set out.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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So, the policy is coming from the Government. In our programme for Government, we referred to the level of ambition 2. Is Ms Nolan saying that there is flexibility within that term as to what level of ambition 2 looks like?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I am confused about who chooses the direction.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I am going to the second round of questions.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I want to briefly return to the purchase of the helicopters. Nowhere in the Commission on the Defence Forces' report do I see anything about buying platforms for training. The platforms specifically outlined were to augment the six helicopters that are there today to give us medium-lift capacity to be able to do things like fight forest fires and the like, as well as provide air ambulance services, etc. I am at a loss to understand why we did not do what the level of ambition 2 required us to do.
I want to go on and look at procurement in general. Last week, Dr. Davis advised this committee that to procure everything from one source was to risk the future. We buy equipment for the Defence Forces for the next 20, 30 or 40 years, depending on what we are doing. I referred to infrastructure a little while ago. The work that has been done on infrastructure will last this country for 40 years and probably longer. We will probably see Haulbowline in 100 years' time as good as it is today.
I am trying to figure out what decisions are made with respect to suppliers. We are living in a very dangerous and geopolitically transient world. If we buy all of our equipment from one particular nation and the politics in that nation changes, where are we with respect to spare parts? Where are we with respect to technical support? Where are we with respect to the longevity of the equipment we buy? It appears to me that everything is being moved to one specific country. That is what we are hearing. Will one of the witnesses explain to me the charm of that particular country?
Ms Fiona Lafferty:
I will take the first one on the helicopters. It was a very good question and observation made by Senator Craughwell. We were as surprised as he was when we actually saw the outcome of the commission that the training helicopters were not referenced. It seems to have been an oversight. It was a priority of the Defence Forces that the helicopters were to be procured for training because we are outsourcing this to other jurisdictions at the moment. This means that when the pilots are gone, they are not available for other tasks, and we are not getting the most out of our resources. It makes more sense from an operational point of view to invest in our own helicopters because there is an ageing fleet there and they need to be replaced. That is the explanation for that.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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Is Ms Lafferty saying the Air Corps set aside level of ambition 2 in favour of buying training aircraft?
Ms Fiona Lafferty:
I am not saying that it set it aside. It would appear that there was an oversight. The language in the commission's report allows for flexibility in terms of implementation. It does not say that the Air Corps has to use a particular platform as such. There is flexibility in the language.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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There is no ambiguity about the purpose of the aircraft - medium-lift aircraft to be able to carry a section of special forces to be able to do firefighting, etc.
I cannot see how a smaller helicopter fulfils that requirement. Ms Lafferty and I can argue about this all day. Neither of us is qualified in aeronautical stuff but it is the question. I just checked it on the web. Cyprus paid €140 million for its six helicopters, which is €5 million per helicopter less than what we paid.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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One would want an awful lot of specification to spending €5 million in all honesty.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I understand that they have basically the same specifics but we can check that out.
Deputy Ó Laoghaire mentioned Israeli equipment. I fully appreciate that Ms Lafferty was not anticipating that and probably it is not something that would come across her table very often, but we need to go back to Airbus, the manufacturers, and get it to certify that no Israeli parts of any sort will be fitted to those aircraft. The committee needs that reassurance from the Department. It is an unfair question to put to Ms Lafferty today but I think the Department needs to go back to Airbus and establish that for the committee because it is Government policy.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Do we have agreement to do that?
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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They could be weapons systems, navigational systems or other technology on board.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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It would be really helpful for the committee to have that information well.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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It involves the component parts mentioned by the Senator. A question was asked about centralising procurement to one country and the risks attached to that.
Ms Aileen Nolan:
I can take that question. With regard to procurement decisions, we do not just look at one country and say we are going to procure from that particular country. Procurement decisions are very much based on what our requirements are, what is value for money and capacity and capability with other countries. We select suppliers based on their ability to meet those requirements, not on the fact that it is just France. It just so happens that France is particularly strong in terms of its defence industry so it has a lot of companies such as Airbus and Thales. There are different companies there and when we have done various procurement contracts, those suppliers have just won them. We were picking them because they meet our requirements and operational plans, not because they are French companies.
In the case of the Government, we have two arrangements, the armoured fleet replacement and the military radar. In the case of the military radar programme, we went out to all European countries, plus some additional countries such as the UK and the US, and invited all of them to come to us to see whether they were interested in supplying us with radar. Eight countries said they were interested. We whittled that down to four and then we whittled that down to one on the basis of looking at what the offerings were and whether they met our requirements. In the case of the armoured fleet programme, market research was done.
Ms Fiona Lafferty:
Significant market analysis of the armoured fleet market was carried out and we looked at it from the point of view of capability that was actually in service and in use in other jurisdictions to make sure that what we were getting was something that has tried and tested and mature in terms of the actual equipment. We also looked at capability. Sustainment was very important for us. A lot of the programmes that are there involve research and development and it does not make sense for us, as a small nation, to go into a research and development-type procurement arrangement or, where we have multiple suppliers and vehicles that would have different suppliers, that would not be something that we would be able to manage. We looked at family vehicle support as well, where the systems will all work together so the vehicles are complementary in terms of some of the spare parts, which makes sense from a value-for-money point of view and also in terms of being able to maintain and sustain them. That is the thinking behind that.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I find it incredible that we are buying helicopters and we are buying them from France, we are buying sonar and we are buying it from France and we are buying primary radar and we are buying it from France. I understand that we are buying military vehicles from France. Is there no other country in the world? We had relationships with other countries for surface-to-air missiles, for example, and I understand they have now also gone to France. Dr. Paul Davis pointed this out last week. I find it incredibly dangerous for us to have piled all of our eggs into one basket. Political change in France tomorrow morning could see our supply lines closed down. We are talking about buying equipment for the next 20 to 30 years. We cannot tell in the current environment what it will be like in six months, a year or two years' time. We have no idea. I find it incredible. I would not go to a single garage only and buy everything I need from my car in that garage. I would shop around. That is what people do. I find it incredibly strange.
Ms Aileen Nolan:
We are shopping around and we have shopped around. Our policy now is to use government to government for the big major equipment platforms. We do not just go to France. We have set up relationships with other countries. We have set up memorandums of understanding with a number of countries, such as Finland, France, the UK and the Netherlands and are looking at memorandums of understanding with Italy, Belgium and Germany, so we are not just looking at France. We are looking more broadly and are talking to other countries, so it is not the case that we are putting all the eggs in one basket. We already have a lot of equipment that is not from France. Lots of stuff already in the Defence Forces is not from France.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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There is not much left to buy from any other country if the Department bought all the stuff I mentioned.
Gerard Craughwell (Independent)
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I do not want to labour the point but one of the things in the opening statement concerns value for money for the State. We paid €5 million more for each helicopter compared to Cyprus, which is a smaller island with a smaller economy and probably less need than us. The witnesses say the helicopters we bought are for training. We are sending pilots at a cost of about €500,000 a year to the UK to be trained, so I do not know where that came from. Are we going to reopen Baldonnel for training pilots? I am not sure. Level of ambition 2 wanted medium-lift aircraft to add to the six we already have. We do not now have that, having spent €120-odd million. We have not augmented the current stock of medium-lift aircraft, which leaves us vulnerable. We saw that vulnerability so blatantly when we had to go and arrest a ship off the south-west coast. I do not mean to labour the point any more than that. I have said all I can say. We also need reassurances on the Israeli question.
Ms Fiona Lafferty:
I will make two clarifications. The helicopters to which the Senator referred are being purchased through a UK contract so it actually involves Airbus UK. They are being manufactured in Germany and fitted out in the UK, so they are not actually French.
Regarding the overall approach, there is flexibility within the commission regarding platforms. The main thing is to have availability and training for the pilots. We can buy all the super mediums or other types of helicopters we like but the basic training platform needs to be in place, and that is where this whole decision was coming from. A whole strategic assessment has been done in relation to this from a policy point of view. The assessment was very comprehensive one done under the public spending code. An options analysis was done as to whether to purchase two additional AW139 helicopters or to purchase additional helicopters such as a H145, so a robust analysis was done in respect of that particular programme. Obviously the Senator does not have the detail. If he did have some information, it might give him a better understanding of that.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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The Senator may get back in again. In terms of the reporting through the Comptroller and Auditor General, are full details of the contracts disclosed to the Comptroller and Auditor General?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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It is, however, reported to the Comptroller and Auditor General.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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The Comptroller and Auditor General, though, can raise questions around the information given to him.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Before I go back to Deputy Callaghan, in terms of engaging with the SMEs, does this include those in the North or what is the relationship there in terms of building the capacities of SMEs across the island? Is it just confined to the Twenty-six Counties?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
We have only set up the unit in the last year or so. At the moment, it is focusing on SMEs in the South, but we are due to meet the chair of the equivalent of Enterprise Ireland in the North because he is interested in that cross-Border aspect. We are just starting to look at this now. At the moment, however, it is just about engaging with people in the Republic.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, that will happen. On the other point, how much are we outsourcing now for training and maintenance?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
I do not have those figures. If we take the Air Corps, for example, we have engaged external companies to help us with the maintenance because our number of technicians is down 50% on what it should be. Right across all the different subheads, there are different amounts. There is not just one figure that I could quote for the Cathaoirleach to say what the cost of outsourcing is.
Ms Fiona Lafferty:
If the Cathaoirleach does not mind, I will add to that point. In relation to the maintenance of aircraft, we obviously have technicians on the ground but a lot of the actual technology maintenance lies with the original manufacturer. Figures will have been seen in relation to maintenance costs and there are arrangements in relation to who actually does the engines or the avionics, for example. Taking the C-295 platform, for example, there is a specific maintenance arrangement there. Some maintenance is done in Ireland but other arrangements are also in place. This is because the equipment is so complex. There are thousands of suppliers and subcomponents, such that we would not be able to manage it ourselves if we were to undertake it, so quite a robust arrangement is in place. This was something we assessed when we went to the market to make sure we got good value for money in this respect too.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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It would be interesting to see the detail. I am trying to get at whether we are trying to build up our own capacity where we possibly can, in terms of the expertise needed in this area.
Ms Aileen Nolan:
We are but obviously we have had recruitment and retention issues over the years and this has particularly impacted on our technicians in the Air Corps and Naval Service. As part of our endeavours, we have our force design and a strategic workforce plan, which is trying to see how we can get from where we are now to having a complement of 11,500 personnel. We are trying to build that up and the Cathaoirleach is probably aware of all the initiatives out there in terms of recruitment and retention. We are trying to build that capacity back up inside the Defence Forces but where we are now has necessitated that we get external contractors to help us with some of the maintenance.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I think it is important to do that, particularly in the current climate where we have rising youth unemployment and many graduates are leaving third level without having the opportunities they may have had heretofore. We should garner that expertise for use across government as a whole but within the Defence Forces too.
Ms Aileen Nolan:
As part of the Naval Service regeneration plan, we are looking to develop a new direct entry trainee technicians scheme for people in the Naval Service, so the Defence Forces are looking out to see what opportunities there are for exactly the cohort of people the Cathaoirleach has been talking about.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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It is like in the area of cyber and all those areas where we need to develop capability.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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From the perspective of maintenance in Baldonnel, it has always been the case that aircraft have to go for their regular service checks from whence they came, back to their parent company. It is, though, about the everyday, day-to-day monitoring, because we have to have maintenance personnel there on the ground in Baldonnel. This is where we are lacking the capability and I do not know how we can get it back. I really do appreciate that work is being done in this regard but I question how much of a role procurement has in flagging that there is better value for money if we can build up our own capability on our own base and have it available. I know it is very nostalgic to look back at how it was before but we should try to get back to that situation.
A point made at last week’s meeting was that once defence capability is lost, it is incredibly expensive to reinstate it. When I am saying that I am pointing to the fact that there is going to be a need, if we want to follow through on our ambition to increase our capacity, even to bring our personnel capacity up to 11,500, then we are going to need more funding to do it. My perspective is that our budget is going to have to increase massively and I hope this point would be agreed with.
I will go back to the government-to-government agreement with France that was mentioned. I know there might be disadvantages in terms of security of supply if we are seeking to buy our equipment abroad and, to quote Senator Craughwell, putting all our eggs in one basket. I am interested in knowing about the advantages in dealing with the same company, if there are advantages in that regard. I am also interested in finding out if there is an opportunity for Ireland to put some of our eggs in their basket and to have a reciprocal relationship. Has thought been given to this possibility and is any work being done in this area? That would increase our own Irish industry SMEs. What specific steps are being taken to ensure that two-way mechanism could exist? Perhaps it already exists. Additionally, what steps are being taken to ensure that Irish SMEs are a part of the conversation? Will this be a part of the business plan that will be put to the Minister for Defence when further contracts are being discussed in terms of radar and the armoured fleet being purchased from France? What capability will be delivered before the EU Presidency begins in July?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
I can start. In terms of the advantages of the government-to-government arrangements with France, the first one in having such a government-to-government arrangement is that we are not just trying to buy a platform or a piece of kit but a whole capability. We have the framework that we use, and the Deputy will be familiar with it, which includes not only the equipment and the training but also the personnel, the doctrine, the organisation, the leadership, the facilities and the maintenance. We are looking at the whole capability context. A lot of the time, industry-----
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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From France?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Okay.
Ms Aileen Nolan:
We are saying that sometimes industry alone would not be able to provide that whole capability. It can give us the kit and maybe training on the kit, but that is it. In going with a government-to-government arrangement, we are getting that broad spectrum of capability, and it is a proven capability that the other government has already used. When I refer to government-to-government arrangements, I am not just talking about France. It happened that France was the most suitable in the case of the armoured fleet, but it may not be the most suitable if we are looking at such a government-to-government arrangement in the case of the super-medium helicopters. We do not know. As we described, we engage with all governments. We have MOUs with many governments now, including France. In terms of the reciprocal arrangement, the arrangement in the MOU would be to see what our shared objectives are. We would look to have a two-way street reciprocal arrangement where we can, as the Deputy said.
I spoke earlier about our SMEs, our tech and cyber sectors and people who are good at communications and at space. We are trying to liaise with industry to see how it can fit into some of the bigger supply chains out there and access EU funding through some of the EU instruments. We have set up a webinar for later in May when we are going to get the European Defence Agency, EDA, and DG DEFIS, in conjunction with the Department of Defence, together with industry. It will be a webinar where we will talk to people, highlight the EU instruments available and describe how funding can be accessed. It is to educate the industry because a lot of our SMEs might not be aware of the opportunities out there.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Is there any way to ensure that that happens from the departmental perspective? As I mentioned, can it be put in the business case to the Minister that we need to have a strong focus on ensuring that Irish SMEs benefit as well from this arrangement, rather than all of our defence budget going out of the country? Can we ensure that some of it does stay here? That will help capability too and ensure we are a little bit more self-sufficient.
Ms Aileen Nolan:
Yes, exactly. We talk about the local participation. With the armoured fleet placement, we are engaging with the potential supplier and saying, "We want that maintenance on-island." If you liaise with industry on-island in order that the money for the maintenance and the supports for the equipment are done on-island, it benefits the Irish economy. Absolutely, we are doing that as part of the-----
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Great. Then there is the capability that might be delivered before the EU Presidency.
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Is that a jamming one?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Is it the most modern one?
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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Okay, and will it meet the needs of the requirement for the EU Presidency? What was the assessment of needs there-----
Catherine Callaghan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
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I understand.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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I want to ask you finally about the eTenders website for the procurement processes and the ones that fall under the EU directive. Are all awarded contracts put on the eTenders website?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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So you select which ones are-----
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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How do the procurement structures here compare with other jurisdictions, particularly the other EU member states or Britain?
Ms Aileen Nolan:
We have moved our structures, as I explained earlier. Prior to probably 2022, we had one contracts branch in the Department led by one principal officer. We now have four teams led by principal officers, plus the EU engagement unit, plus an RTI unit. We have probably quadrupled our number of people involved in capability development, procurement and acquisition, and industry engagement. Doing that has brought us into line with best practice, so we are set up now for best practice. In terms of numbers, you would not compare us to the UK, for example, because, obviously, the scale would be completely different.
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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But in terms of structures, we-----
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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Is there anything else anybody wants to contribute to the discussion before I close?
Rose Conway-Walsh (Mayo, Sinn Fein)
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It is very important. I think the committee has an appreciation of the job of work that needs to be done but, obviously, we need as much transparency and oversight as possible and value for money. Ethical decisions are also really important.
On behalf of the committee, I thank the officials for their time this morning and their engagement.