Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 6 May 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Youth
EU Global Citizenship and Sustainable Development Education: Discussion
2:00 am
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from our Chair, Deputy Cathal Crowe, and Senator Shane Curley.
The witnesses are all welcome. I ask everyone attending remotely to mute themselves when not contributing so we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.
Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. As the witnesses are within the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to this committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty, as Leas-Chathaoirleach, to ensure it is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside the Houses or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
The item on the agenda for today's meeting is the EU global citizenship and sustainable development education. I welcome from the Jean Monnet Project My Big Friendly Guide to the EU, Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan, senior lecturer in European politics and director of the hub in active European citizenship in UCC, and Ms Trish Collier, primary school principal. From The Irish Development Education Association, IDEA, we are joined by Mr. Ruairí McKiernan, CEO, and Ms Leigh Brady, policy and advocacy manager. From the Young Social Innovators from Coláiste Bhríde, we have Ms Sarah Jennings, fifth year; Ms Phoebe Doyle, fifth year; and Ms Georga Rossiter, fifth year. I also welcome Ms Karen Murphy, teacher, and the students from Coláiste Bhríde, and the students from Glanmire Community College, Cork, and IDEA representatives, who are here to observe the meeting.
Today is a specia day for the committee as we are marking Europe Day. It is uplifting to see so many young people here who are interested in being active citizens and who care about their futures.
I will call the witnesses to make their opening statements in the following order: Dr. Schön-Quinlivan and Ms Collier, who are sharing their time, followed by Mr. McKiernan and Ms Jennings, Ms Doyle and Ms Rossiter, who are also sharing their time. Each group will have five minutes in total. The opening statements will be followed by questions from the members of the committee. Each member will have six-minute slots to ask questions and for the witnesses to respond. If an opening statement goes over the five minutes, it will automatically be read into the record but witnesses may hear me tapping on my glass to ask them to finish up, if that is okay.
We will start with Dr. Schön-Quinlivan.
Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan:
I wish the Chair, Deputies and Senators a good afternoon. My Big Friendly Guide to the European Union had a special day on 4 October 2024. On that day, Sarah and Ailsa, two third year students in Glanmire Community College, who are sitting in the Public Gallery, emailed to ask me if I could come and discuss active European citizenship with 200 of their fellow students. Why was this so special? This request came on foot of the pilot we had run of My Big Friendly Guide to the EU in their third class in Riverstown National School six years prior. They could still remember making the EU smoothie to understand the concept of a Union and shared sovereignty.
They recalled how they enjoyed that classes felt more like discussions than lessons and allowed for different viewpoints from everyone in the class to be heard. As an educator, you always look out for those seeds sowed and their impact.
On the eve of the Irish Presidency of the Council of the EU, My Big Friendly Guide to the EU has been relaunched to take on board ten years of feedback from teachers and pupils. It has retained all the features that teachers loved like the lesson plans, lesson slides, quizzes, activities and our mascot, Seamie Shamrock, who is voiced by kids for kids. However, it has been renamed Key to the EU, a key that Seamie Shamrock is happy to share with all primary classrooms to make European citizenship education simple.
This programme has evolved over the past ten years. It started small and has become one of only 13 teacher training projects funded by the European Commission EU-wide. We are the only ones in the EU to have developed such an integrated teaching toolkit with a training course on European citizenship education for primary school teachers. This is the fruit of a unique collaboration between primary and third level education which uses powerful knowledge translated through innovative and critical pedagogy. We do not teach students what to think about the EU; we teach them how to articulate facts, arguments and ideas to make up their mind, to empower them as citizens and to put into effect the Laura Lundy model. What have Trish and I learnt over the past ten years?
Ms Trish Collier:
We have learnt that, first, teachers want clear links with the curriculum. Our new website provides the strands and strand units for each lesson and activity. SPHE is the natural home for our programme. However, it also connects with English, maths, drama, visual arts, history, geography and music. Second, teachers need a streamlined approach to a subject. This is why we have created an activity book for their pupils that can be completed over the duration of the programme. We have also created a section which allows teachers to select activities based on class level, duration of the activity and topic. Finally and above all, teachers need training. We have a free CPD course accredited by the Drumcondra Education Centre. So far, we have delivered it only face to face but what worked well in 2019 does not work in a post-Covid world. We have, therefore, applied for funding from the European Commission to create a fully accredited online training platform for Irish teachers.
We would like to finish on one key point. Our ten years of experience have established us as a reference on active citizenship education at European level. Just last month, Emmanuelle was appointed by the European Commission’s advisory board to define EU-level guidelines on democratic citizenship education. However, we have had no support at national level. We are not looking for financial or logistical support, only visibility through the Department of education’s network to make teachers aware of our programme, resources and training which are entirely free.
You might think European active citizenship is quite niche. We do not think so because in discussing it we broach the local and national levels, media literacy, skills and values and much more. We also collaborate with the Electoral Commission on citizenship events and we are working on a new teaching and learning programme on active citizenship at local, national, European, global, media and digital levels. We believe that active citizenship education plants a seed, not just for Sarah and Ailsa, but for every child who will one day realise that democracy needs nurturing.
In a geopolitical moment that is actively testing Irish and European liberal democratic values, we argue that nurturing begins in primary school. We would be very grateful to become a visible, accessible option for every primary school teacher who believes, as Sarah and Ailsa clearly do, that it is never too early to start. We are very much looking forward to the discussion.
Mr. Ruairí McKiernan:
I thank members of the committee for the invitation to appear here today. Across Europe and the world, we are seeing a rise in authoritarianism, deepening inequality, and the impacts of conflict and genocide, alongside the climate emergency, driving division and threatening democratic foundations. At this time of profound global turbulence, it is important we reflect on the purpose of education.
In this age of AI, education must not be confined to the transfer of information. What is required is a more holistic model - one that fosters critical thinking, helps people to understand global challenges and our interdependence with each other and with the natural world, and supports informed action. This is what is at the heart of development education, global citizenship education, and education for sustainable development, also known as GCE and ESD.
Ireland has proud traditions to draw upon for this work, from peacekeeping, humanitarian action and human rights advocacy shaping our identity and reputation as an outward-looking and engaged country. This is reflected in our national and international commitments, including the ESD to 2030 strategy, sustainable development goal 4.7, the European declaration on global education to 2050 and Ireland's climate action plan. It is also demonstrated by the sustained leadership and support of Irish Aid in advancing GCE as well as related policy frameworks addressing disinformation and misinformation.
However, while policy ambition is clear, we must be honest; delivery is not matching the urgency of the moment, particularly as we run out of time to avoid ecological collapse and in the face of the scale and speed of misinformation and disinformation. In difficult times it can sometimes be hard to hold onto hope but every day we see the transformative power of education. Founded in 2004, IDEA is the all-Ireland network for GCE and ESD. We represent over 100 organisations and individuals working across formal, non-formal and informal settings. Throughout the country, IDEA members are having a real impact, teaching hundreds of thousands each year. Examples include Trócaire and Concern Worldwide which support pupils to engage with global justice issues, and the likes of WorldWise Global Schools supporting post-primary teachers and school leaders, while Global Village does the same at primary level.
Then we have programmes such as Youth 2030 and STAND, enabling young people and students to engage with these issues in their own lives while initiatives such as An Taisce's green schools programme and the Irish schools sustainability network are driving action for sustainability. DICE and the Ubuntu Network ensure this work is embedded in teacher education while Saolta supports adult learners. These are a very small number of examples from a much wider educational framework and ecosystem.
The priority now is for us to build on these strong foundations and IDEA wishes to propose four key areas of action. First, stronger cross-departmental co-ordination, to better align policy and practice across education, foreign policy, environment, youth and community, and particularly closer alignment between GCE and ESD moving towards a whole-of-government approach for both. Second, sustained and increased investment to expand, reach and deepen all-Ireland engagement alongside investment in research and educator capacity. Third, deeper integration of GCE and ESD into curricula, assessment, and lifelong learning so that these themes are embedded rather than experienced as an additional layer. Fourth and finally, stronger partnerships across Government, civil society, and education bodies alongside meaningful partnerships with partners in the global south.
At a time of growing polarisation, this is also about strengthening democratic participation, building understanding and fostering dialogue and trust. Ireland has a strong tradition of valuing education as a force for social progress, grounded in global solidarity and our role in the world. The question now is how we stay true to these values. This is not a time for backsliding; it is a time for vision, for leadership, and to invest in humanity and in education that fosters respect, counters division and plants the so badly needed seeds of hope. With the committee's support, there is a real and genuine opportunity right now to build on what is already in place and to act on the belief that education remains the most powerful force we have to change the world.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. McKiernan. Finally, we will have Ms Jennings, Ms Doyle and Ms Rossiter.
Ms Sarah Jennings:
Young Social Innovators, YSI, is a non-profit organisation that empowers young people to use their talents, insights, passion and creativity to come up with innovative solutions to social challenges.
The organisation is celebrating 25 years of social innovation and our school, Coláiste Bhríde, has proudly participated in this programme for many of these years. We are fifth year students and our project during transition year was called "Take a Stand, Change the Band". During our transition year, we successfully campaigned for much-needed changes to the junior cycle grading system. The then Minister for education, Deputy Helen McEntee, directly cited our project and campaign as being a driver for this change. The changes to the grading bands were just one of our three project goals. We also campaigned to give students instant access to their percentages attained in each subject and straightforward access to their corrected scripts. Our two remaining goals continue to motivate us to fight for change and this is the reason we speak before the committee today.
Ms Phoebe Doyle:
In May 2025, we were invited to take part in the next level of Young Social Innovators, YSI, which is called YSI Elevate. It has been challenging to combine our leaving certificate studies with this project but we are extremely proud of what we have accomplished this year with limited time. As previously mentioned, our first project objective was to campaign for changes to the junior cycle grading system. In October 2025, over 73,000 students received their junior cycle results. As a result of the changes to the grade bands, the rate of distinctions increased from 3.6% in 2024 to 8.6% in 2025. As students do not have access to their achieved percentages, they do not know how close they had come to achieving the next grade up. This lack of clarity is a source of frustration for students, teachers and parents.
Ms Georga Rossiter:
We have conducted research on a regular basis over the past two years with consistent responses from students and teachers. Both groups want access to percentages achieved and their corrected scripts. Our research methods have included in-person interviews, focus groups and online surveys. The passion and desire for change among stakeholders is evident to us and we are frustrated that the voices of those who are on the front line of education, that is, students and teachers, are being ignored. From our online surveys conducted in March 2026, with 416 respondents, we received the following results: 94% of respondents agreed that students should have immediate access to their percentages for each subject and 91% of respondents agreed that students should have straightforward and immediate access to corrected scripts.
Ms Sarah Jennings:
From the very early stages of this project, we have been extremely surprised by the level of passion and sense of frustration among students because of the current system. They feel ignored and unheard. Below is a sample from the hundreds of feedback comments we have received: "For people to evaluate themselves, we need exact data"; "It’s my result and I want to know it"; and "It would allow me to see my improvement from my mock exam - I may have improved 10%, but a grade descriptor might not show this".
Ms Phoebe Doyle:
Feedback from teachers was equally passionate. Teachers want the best for their students, and having a more transparent system would inform their teaching and benefit these students. Here is a sample of some teacher feedback received: "Students have worked for 3 years for these exams, they should be able to access their results"; "It is of paramount importance that students are afforded the same transparency and access to their scripts as Leaving Certificate students"; and it would "allow for student reflection which is crucial as it transforms tests from mere grading tools into learning opportunities".
Ms Georga Rossiter:
According to the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, "assessment at junior cycle places the student at the centre of the learning process". After speaking to many teachers over the course of our research, we learned that teachers received a lot of training when the new grading and assessment procedures were implemented. At every training session, they were reminded that the student is at the centre of the learning process. It does seem contradictory to say this while withholding key information from the students and not giving them a full picture of their examination performance. How can the student be at the centre of a process where teachers are not able to view the corrected scripts of their students and make informed decisions on their teaching practices? How can the student be at the centre of a process where their data is not freely available to them and requires the completion of paperwork to view? Anecdotally, we often hear people saying, "It’s only the junior cert", a sentiment which may ring true for some students. For many of us, this is our first official State examination and it is something that we have worked towards for three years. Our grannies have bought us “Good Luck” cards and lit candles for us, but then we are told we cannot have access to our full results. This does not make sense to us.
Ms Sarah Jennings:
When recently asked a parliamentary question on this matter by Deputy Brian Brennan, the Minister, Deputy Naughton, replied in writing that "It is a core principle of the Junior Cycle framework that there should be a move away from focusing on terminal examinations as the main mode of assessment ... hence it is not intended to provide additional information such as percentages or exact marks to students."
Ms Phoebe Doyle:
In response to this, we ask what the purpose of the junior certificate examinations is. It is the only aspect of a three-year body of work, which is graded as classroom-based assessment, CBAs, that receives only descriptors. If a focus on terminal exams is not the goal of the junior cycle, why do the junior cycle exams exist?
Ms Georga Rossiter:
We are here today to ask the committee to take on board our feedback and our lived experiences. We are asking for our voices to be heard and for a common-sense approach to be applied here. Students need their data in order to make informed decisions about their future and to have the best start on their leaving certificate journey.
We thank members for their time and welcome their questions.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I thank all the witnesses very much this afternoon. We are now going to move to members' questions. As I said, each member will have six minutes, which includes time for the witnesses to respond.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Well done, everybody. I thank everyone for coming, especially the students from Carnew. The first time I met them was outside the Dáil. I was a new TD, and they were protesting. I thought, "Look at all these young people". It was great. They had such logical things to say. They have worked really hard to keep this message going. They achieved that one thing. Even if the other two do not come, they have achieved something really important for other young people around this country, and that is really massive. I congratulate them. I believe they are sitting the leaving certificate in a couple of weeks. I wish them the very best of luck.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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It is next year, okay. I was thinking that if they are doing the leaving certificate in a few weeks and they are here, I am even more impressed.
I did a YSI project with a number of students years ago when I was working in the school completion programme. It is a really brilliant programme for exactly this reason, which is figuring out what people want to figure out and then putting a methodology around that and being able to examine it. This is a really brilliant example of how that project really works so well. It goes back to what Ms Collier and Dr. Schön-Quinlivan were talking about regarding the Laura Lundy model, which is so important. This committee is not only about education; it is also about youth. I think sometimes we forget about the youth part. It is really important, however, because if we do not have young people then we are missing something. We are making legislation for now, but by the time it is implemented, I will probably be getting the pension or something. It is going to be so important for the young people. I want to congratulate them. I do not really have a question because I have been following them for a while. I am just delighted that they are here. I do not have a question except to say a huge "Congratulations". This question is to the others. Of course, if the students want to answer this question, they are very welcome to do so but my question really is to the others. I thank them all. Where does democracy fit into these themes about which we are talking? We are talking about misinformation, disinformation and how we need to engage young people in conversations about the wider world. This is about the fundamentals of democracy because I think we are on shaky ground at the moment. Where does that fit in to the elements about which the witnesses were talking? The students from Carnew are all very welcome to answer that as well but perhaps the others would like to answer it.
Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan:
I thank the Deputy very much for the question. Regarding democracy, we started this programme with the idea of teaching about Ireland and the European Union. Through piloting, I quickly realised that, actually, the democratic skills of deliberation were really absent from the classroom. It fits in very well with the other speakers' comments about values and democratic skills. Through our programme, we have infused activities and integrated activities that foster deliberative skills. The idea is to bring back conflict within the classroom rather than support the teachers' instinct of going towards consensus and compromise. We try to get the activities that get the children to express different viewpoints and these are discussed. That is really at the core for us of democratic skills and how a liberal democracy functions, as such.
Mr. Ruairí McKiernan:
I recall last year I was at a conference in Seoul in South Korea. One of the big takeaways was a researcher speaking about how the evidence is suggesting that democracy is in decline globally. We have kind of grown up and come of age in a sort of golden era. That is not to say that the era we have grown up in is perfect. It is actually deficient in so many ways in democracy, which is also why there is some legitimate anger and frustration out there.
We have to give some listening to that and have some dialogue, as was discussed. The deliberation aspect is missing in a general context of civic engagement. We are at a crisis point in terms of democracy. I am really glad the Deputy raised the point. Among the core skills that are essential now is first to understand that we are citizens of this country - and indeed, of the European Union and the world - and we have a voice and we have power. We get to shape and influence and, as the students have demonstrated today, that they can be part of it. It is about reigniting and reinviting Irish citizens to be part of the State and co-create the State together. The concern now is that we have reached this polarity. That is why I say education is critical to help people come back into the conversation and understand this is our country together. I am conscious my colleague, Ms Brady, might want to add to that.
Ms Leigh Brady:
To add to that, many of the projects our members deliver across classrooms, youth clubs, lecture halls campuses and community centres focus on a lot of skills that are needed for democracy. Beyond the deliberation skills and skills for dialogue, the methodology of global citizenship education is very participatory and is about people interacting with one another and taking informed collective action as citizens. That is key to participating in a democracy from a citizen’s perspective, that is, as the students here demonstrated, being able to focus on an issue, campaigning around it and using all the different avenues they have in a democracy to do that. Many of the projects do that.
Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank everybody.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I would like to repeat what Deputy Cummins said. I congratulate the witnesses. We see a lot of young people in the committee of education and youth and I am also on the children’s committee. We have brought in a lot of young people. It is so important to listen to the witnesses and to their experiences. The big congratulations have to be that they got anything out of the Department of education. There are lots of us here who have not had any concessions and we have been knocking around a lot longer than the people here, so I congratulate them. Well done. I hope it really shows people in their social groups and in their schools that the House is accessible; you can effect change even when you are not old enough to vote. It is fabulous. I thank the other witnesses for being here.
I was interested in the concept of this being taught at SPHE level. I am sure the Department is delighted to hear the witnesses are not looking for any funding to do so. As it is such a huge thing and is so important, do the witnesses not feel it would be better as part of overall teacher training? That is my first question. It would be that this is consistent and it is not just the schools or teachers who want to opt in doing it but that it be delivered across the board. The second question is, how do teachers feel being asked to do more CPD? The changes and the additional things they are being asked to do to meet our changing needs and changes in our communities are fantastic but has there been any pushback on that side of things?
Ms Trish Collier:
SPHE is very broad in the old curriculum. In the new curriculum there is well-being and citizenship which are together. It would fit quite well within that. The competencies we are being asked to fulfil in the children is being an active citizen and being well. They are very linked. People cannot vote until they are 18 but if we empower them, like these young ladies beside me, to feel their voice has worth in it and can be used at an early age they become more of an active citizen. They are empowered by the knowledge to know they can do these things as a citizen and not just when they are able to vote at 18.
On the CPD for teachers, yes, teachers are under serious pressure. Under the new curriculum there will be changes but it offers agency to teachers and they can use that agency in their classroom to choose things they are interested in. Our CPD is Drumcondra approved, which means teachers get their extra personal vacation, EPV, days from doing the course. It is a motivation for the teachers to do it but, again, it is something they are interested in. Our website also educates the teachers. There are videos the teachers can watch prior to giving a lesson so they are able to feel empowered themselves. If they do not feel they have the knowledge they can watch the short video before they give the lesson. It works very well.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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What other European countries do this well?
Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan:
At primary level Ireland is in a unique position. We are the only programme to be funded at primary level in terms of teacher training by the European Commission. It is a Jean Monnet teacher training grant. It was started three years ago. I have had two in a row and am applying for my third. The European Commission is very aware of the undermining of democratic values and the threat to liberal democracies in general. It is very much encouraging the development of programmes like this. As for the problem we face, we are highly recognised at European level. As Ms Collier mentioned, I was appointed on the advisory board to define the guidelines for democratic citizenship education in the EU. It is defined at Council of Europe level but not in the EU. I am one of 17 people working on this. We are very much recognised. We have this toolkit which is plug and play and which includes videos which are ready to go for the teachers, activity books, lesson plans, lesson slides that teachers can download and amend because they might have split-level classes, etc. We are very recognised at European level but we have zero visibility or support at national level. We are not looking for financial support, which is a great position to be in, but we have no visibility in the Department of education network or anywhere so we are struggling to create this momentum of being an option. We are an easy option with the upcoming Presidency because it is plug and play. You can access it and not take it on or take parts of it. We think we are the ideal solution – we would – and it is free.
Returning to the CPD course, that is why we have applied for funding to create online training to be even more accessible to teachers who are under massive pressure during the summer and do not have time to come for 20 hours in UCC, Dublin or Galway. We cannot hit the entire country so online is what we are going for.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank all the witnesses. I will start by following up on raising awareness for these programmes but also embedding them in the system. What needs to change and at what level to make that happen?
Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan:
That was also a question from Deputy Dempsey. I have been asked by Mary Immaculate College to contribute to an elective module which is called "Teaching Europe in the classroom", so I do contribute. The problem is first, it is an elective so it is not embedded as it is not compulsory. The second aspect is I provide six hours out of the 24 hours. The rest is about teaching different languages in the classroom, etc. It is very minute. I will ask Ms Collier to contribute on this and another contributor made a similar point that what would need to change is an understanding that well-being includes collective agency and that it is not just “I am well myself in me” but rather “I am well in my society and my community and this world”.
Until now, well-being, maybe for good reasons such as due to Covid, has been treated very much as an individual agency. Active citizenship needs to be boosted a bit more in the well-being forum at primary level to get children to understand they have power if they act collectively.
Ms Trish Collier:
I agree. Active citizenship should be valued and it should be an important part of education. I keep mentioning empowerment but we are empowering our students to become active citizens. Well-being is very important but we need to experience learning through democratic values. In the classroom our lessons are very active. The children are engaged in classroom elections, for example. A lot of schools now have student councils and these feed in. A lot of schools are doing very well in any event and this is empowering them a little bit more. What we need is to put value on it so that it is valued in education.
Ms Leigh Brady:
If we look at the state of play of the curriculum, we see good news and reasons to be positive. One of the core competencies of the new primary curriculum framework is active citizenship. We see this as an entry point and the project would fit in there. It is about making connections between the NCCA, Oide, which is responsible for the roll-out of the new curriculum, and the specific schools interested in coming on board. That is at primary level.
At post-primary level, the junior cycle has statements of learning that align with the values of this project and global citizenship education. It is about being an active citizen and it has a global dimension. Senior cycle reform is ongoing and a lot of leaving certificate subjects are being revised. There is room for improvement, which we are recommending through our formal education working group. There is a lot of opportunity but it is about joining the dots, connecting with the various stakeholders and working together.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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My next questions are for the students. Do they reflect on their success? Are there particular positives they take out of it on which they might be able to advise other groups? They have the opportunity to have their voice heard and experience it being heard. We have all reflected some frustrations with the system. The students have had a unique opportunity and success. Have they reflected on any of that and do they have advice for their peers or people generally?
Ms Sarah Jennings:
We are so lucky to be part of the young social innovators programme in which we are given the opportunity to speak. If I had been told two years ago I would be sitting here now, I would not have believed it. Even with regard to public speaking, there are so many kids our age who have never spoken in front of other people. We are so lucky to have this opportunity. The advice we would give to young people our age is to put themselves out there. Although we might not be able to change the whole world, we can surely attempt to change our small corner of it anyway.
Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Fair play and well done.
Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I am always taken when we have a group of young witnesses and our witnesses today have spoken eloquently. They, and the people in the Gallery, are most welcome. Coláiste Bhríde in Carnew can be very proud. The young social innovator programme is very well positioned to have people such as the witnesses advocating and promoting it and putting their views across.
I am taken by Mr. McKiernan's statement in which he reminds us that as public representatives we should be aware. There is a lot in it in terms of the invasion of misinformation and disinformation and, in particular, that nobody is exempt from this type of interference. His statement is very strong with regard to what a lot of us go through. When we try to unravel all of it we ask what education is all about and what its purpose is, and therein lies the challenge for a lot of us. There seems to be movement whereby people feel they have a right to pontificate, or whatever we would like to call it, their message, notwithstanding the damage that sometimes causes or how untrue their comment is. Will Mr. McKiernan expand on this a little? In recent times, particularly in recent weeks when it came to what went on in the fuel protests, there was so much anger, misinformation and all of the other things thrown in there. I was one of the people asking myself what purpose it has when all it is doing is driving people to be more cross. I sometimes think, Jesus, it would be great if we could stop social media altogether.
Mr. Ruairí McKiernan:
That might be part of it, to be honest. We do have evidence now, and there is a global trend to have restrictions on teenage social media. We know, particularly through the Irish Council for Civil Liberties and other groups, that it is the algorithm that needs challenging. Hatred, abuse and argument are supported by the algorithm, which has a direct line to the profit margin of the multinationals which we are sometimes way too shy to challenge and take on, particularly in this country.
I experienced some online abuse at the weekend because of the nature of the work that we do. I have experienced it before but it got me to wonder what the life of a public representative is like.
Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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We can tell you.
Mr. Ruairí McKiernan:
I cannot imagine it and I empathise. We might all have our differences of opinion on a whole range of things but in a democracy we have the rights to peace, respect and safety and we have the ballot box to underpin these. Now we see a trend that puts some of that in jeopardy. Some of it has been fed through overseas networks and a movement that is very explicit, including one of our allies in a certain country and beyond. We need to have very open and raw conversations about this.
We also know that a particular Senator in these Houses who commented on particular aspects of the fuel protests was then subjected to a huge amount of abuse. I can now feel a shadow and weight on what I say, regarding what I might say that would give rise to further abuse, but we cannot be afraid of that. We have to trust, build and fight for our democracy. We must also respect that people have genuine concerns, genuine anger and are genuinely disaffected because they are not being heard. The need to have some place where they are listened to and have a voice. All parties, whether left or right, need a much deeper and much more systemic, root-and-branch, honest and difficult conversation, and we need to agree on a common consensus that abuse, violence and disinformation are wrong. There should be no tolerance of them.
Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Do the young social innovators have an opinion on social media?
Ms Sarah Jennings:
It depends; it can be used positively or negatively. We use it a lot to promote our project. Without social media, certain issues would not have the visibility that they do. I would say that most of the members' campaigning is done online also. It reaches a broad number of people. It really depends on who is using it and whether they are given the right amount of skill and knowledge to see what is wrong and what is right. That is a huge problem, even for people our age.
If we are told, "This is all you can do", young people in Ireland are very much, "This is how you do it", and, "This is it." We are very good on technology and we have ICT classes in school, and we do Microsoft Sway in TY. I suppose it is all in how it is harnessed and who you are giving the power to.
Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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In the seven seconds that I have left, one of the things I have discovered, and am always conscious of, is that you can become very best friends with somebody without ever opening your mouth. Let social media deal with it.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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That is a wonderful way for the Deputy to finish his contribution.
Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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I am a little bit over the clock.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I am next on the schedule. I reiterate what Deputy has said. The most positive information we ever get from witnesses is always from young people. Everybody else has to work within certain parameters whereas they are open and very direct and clear. It is very refreshing so I thank all the witnesses very much.
Since entering into the Seanad, and like a lot of public representatives, I get an opportunity to visit schools all over the country. The appetite is there at the moment among young people. I am listening here about your programme but I am also familiar with the Blue Flag programme. I have been out to Ballinlough National School recently where they had the flag up, and Termon National School. We were also up at Curraghboy National School recently with Nina Carberry, MEP, launching a new European magazine. These are all initiatives that students and young people are really enthusiastic about. So much so that you are really giving weight, and especially your age group, to the idea of giving 16-year-olds the vote potentially. They more informed and more open to information and they work it through. I am always very impressed by that.
Going back to Dr. Schön-Quinlivan, refreshingly you are not looking for any money from the Department, which is really new for anybody coming in here, but only looking for visibility through the Department's network to make teachers aware of her programme, the resources and the training, which she has created. She applied for funding to provide online learning as well. What specific actions is she looking for from the Department to make awareness and uptake more open?
Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan:
Ms Collier would probably know more than I about the specifics. Reference was made to the Blue Star programme. This is publicised through the Department of Education and Youth's network. Every school principal gets notification that the programme is up for registration. We do not feature. I will pre-empt the next question about the Blue Star programme. For the past ten years we have been in touch with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade regarding the programme. I have applied for the procurement and so on but we were unsuccessful. That is fine. The Blue Star programme deals more with member states and the cultural and historical aspects. We are very much about active citizenship and, to come back to Deputy Cummins's comments, about improving democratic skills, deliberative skills and citizenship empowerment. Since I have a YSI group next to me I must mention that YSI has a primary school-level programme, which is called Design for Change. We collaborated with Design for Change. Groups of primary school students like them created socially innovative projects in their community and we got them to present before a panel including Grace O'Sullivan former MEP, Lord Mayor Kieran McCarthy, an academic, and a representative from YSI . This is crucial in terms of engagement with policymakers and those kids having not just the sentiment but the reality of having their voice heard. In terms of visibility with the Department of Education and Youth we ask simply that this would be advertised by the Department when it announces the programmes that are up for registration.
Ms Trish Collier:
We had a whole-school evaluation in our school and the inspectors who came to the school were very complimentary of the programme and particularly in the feedback that they got from the pupils and the pupil focus group, but they could not write down in their written evaluation online that we had done the Big Friendly Guide to the EU programme because they are not allowed. It is about visibility and that it is an option for teachers to use.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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We will come back to that. Apologies for mentioning Blue Flag. I was on water safety last Thursday so that is why this was on my mind. I apologise. Mr. McKiernan mentioned that the policy ambition is clear and progress has been made but that unfortunately it has not been matched by urgency given the scale and speed at which relentless waves of misinformation and disinformation now operate. What educational approaches has Mr. McKiernan seen work in trying to address that misinformation and counter it?
Mr. Ruairí McKiernan:
There are any number of NGOs and organisations around the country. The Hope and Courage Collective is one. On a local level, the Clare public participation network is doing great work on the ground there as well. We have over 100 member organisations and individuals. We have the likes of Trócaire and Concern and so on. Our members work at primary, secondary and third level but also informally through youth work and with adults in the community, and with organisations such as Development Perspectives in Louth, the National Adult Literacy Agency, NALA, and developmenteducation.ie. There is a growing range of initiatives specifically around disinformation and misinformation. I cannot speak for those groups but a lot of us are on the back foot in how we can compete with particular agendas, particular forces and particular corporate entities that have billions of euro behind them.
Ms Leigh Brady:
I agree with Mr. McKiernani. There are some specific initiatives that we could name. One of our members, 80:20, did a partnership with NALA a few years ago, which was a book called Facts Matter. It is about fact checking. Mr. McKiernan mentioned developmenteducation.ie, which is a digital platform and a repository of digital resources on global citizenship education. It is also about making digital resources for fact checking. Common to all of the projects with global citizenship is critical thinking skills. It is really about amplifying and ramping up those initiatives.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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We will probably have an opportunity to come back to this. I have to be conscious to get to everyone. I will come back to that.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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I thank all witnesses for their contributions. I commend the students from Wicklow on their presentation and on the work they have done on their project. I am a former secretary school teacher so I am well used to meeting with young people but I am still amazed when I meet young people and see the projects they are involved in. We had student councils and I recognised the important work they do within the school. I just recently met with Comhairle na nÓg members who were representing Cavan and Monaghan at an event across the road. They are so clear on the issues that are affecting our youth and so forth. There is such important work done within school structures and outside of school structures. There is not enough investment in youth services in our communities, and I have raised this point here. It is absolutely vital. I agree with the Leas-Chathaoirleach that the voting age should definitely be lowered. Young are well able to make up their own minds on who they could vote for.
Are there barriers to young people getting involved? It may not be so much in school projects because they are there anyway. It was said that some students might shy away from speaking out in front of others. Outside of that, have the witnesses heard of different barriers for people getting involved in youth services and youth and committees? Can they identify any of those?
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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From a rural perspective, some young people have said to me that transport is a huge issue-----
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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-----and physically getting to a place.
Obviously, if you are in school that is fine, but not if it is the evenings or weekends. That is one of the barriers they mentioned. I wonder if there are others.
As a teacher, I taught history and CSPE. When I taught CSPE I taught about the European Union and the need for the UN Declaration of Human Rights and what led to that. That ties in with history as well. We often comment that history repeats itself and we should learn from the mistakes, but we do not seem to. A few years ago, when I was still teaching we were talking about the Second World War and the disintegration of democracy across Europe at the time. I told students to look at what was happening in America, and that was when Donald Trump was elected for the first time in 2016. I said that Hitler was initially elected democratically and then used that to turn the tables. It is scary. The witnesses have outlined a lot of good work that is happening. It is about how to make sure everybody is aware of that and of what can be done. As Deputy Roche spoke about, the abuse online is horrific. I have no issue with someone disagreeing with me over a political opinion, but it does not remain there. You have nameless people attacking you and saying hurtful and personal things. I tend to not read the comments if possible. You are trying to look for the positive ones you need to respond to and ignore the others. What can be done to turn the tide on this because I am concerned about people's attitudes? I find young people generally do not see difference. It is when they are taught difference that they develop racist or sectarian attitudes or whatever. It is a scary time, and we need to do as much as we can to ensure that we can turn back the tide.
Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan:
I remember being in a fourth class classroom. I said before that our programme is discursive and deliberative, and I was facilitating the conversation. The teacher was in the class but not involved. A student expressed an opinion, although I cannot remember what it was. Somebody else shouted across that they must be stupid for thinking that. Again, it goes back to teaching kids. Having active citizenship in the wheel of skills in the new primary curriculum framework is fantastic. However, the teachers do not know how to implement it in the classroom. It is about teaching the deliberative skills of disagreeing in a civil way and maybe pushing it a bit further than disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing and to what their solution would be. It is about getting the kids to disagree critically. They can say they disagree but saying what they would do differently is important, and that is not there. Deputy Dempsey asked about this. It is not about changing the curriculum. The pieces are there, but the focus is not. The focus is on well-being and individual agency. It is not on active citizenship and collective agency, and well-being comes from that. I think turning the tide is teaching deliberative skills.
Ms Leigh Brady:
IDEA does training for its members every year. Last year we did depolarisation training. It is about teaching educators the skills to teach depolarisation in whatever learning space they are facilitating. It can be classrooms or non-formal spaces. We see an upscaling of those types of training as important. We are asking for an upscaling of GCE across all educational settings - formal, non-formal and informal. If there is increased investment and a big push behind this we have a chance to turn the tide. However, the commitment and investment have to be considerably ramped up because the challenge is huge. It is unprecedented. There is a chance, but we need to put the resources and investment behind it.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I apologise for the missing the start. The enterprise committee is on at the same time. However, I read the notes yesterday. This sounds so exciting. Ireland joined the EEC in 1973. I was born two years later in 1975. I remember my dad talking at home about how exciting it was that we were part of Europe and that we would get roads and there would be a bit of money put into different things. From then, I remember being in fourth class and learning more about the EEC, as it was. You learned your countries and capitals and that type of thing. Reading through what has been presented about education on European citizenship, it sounds so immersive. When I was learning at school I could not take it in when a teacher said stuff. I had to write it down in my own way and translate it in my own way. I had to go home and do that all over again. It was not something I could take in quickly. I can see why the witnesses are talking about this sort of interactive approach being included in the SPHE instruction manual.
I want to say this nicely. With the schools they have been in, does it depend on the teachers? Do they all see that the approach the witnesses want to take to EU education and citizenship is something good? Is it different from school to school or from teacher to teacher? They might have answered my next question before I came in, so I apologise. They might have been answering it as I walked in the door. What can the Department do, or what can we do to help the witnesses with the Department? Have they discussed this with our Irish MEPs? What do they think?
Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan:
With regard to the teachers, there is a lack of knowledge among teachers about the European Union. They do not feel competent and equipped enough to deliver. That is one point. The second point is that before I come or before they engage with the programme, they think it is politics and boring and wonder what kids aged eight and nine would know about politics. Ms Collier mentioned that our website offers videos of under five minutes to equip the teacher with the knowledge they need to go into the classroom for each lesson. We also have CPD training, but that is a bigger commitment of 20 hours, but we have the small videos. The second point is that they realise once they engage with the course that it is not political. It is about the skills of exchanging and listening to each other and having different opinions and experiences. If I go to a school in a rural area with a lot of farming families, they have a different opinion.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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We have evolved so much through the European Union, even with people going from country to country, compared with when I grew up. As I said, you learned your capitals and that was really all.
Ms Trish Collier:
Dr. Schön-Quinlivan approached me about creating a programme and I thought it would be lovely, and we would learn about the capitals and some of the rivers. We would bring baguettes and so on. That is what I thought, but she had a bigger picture. It was more about the values of the European Union and being part of the club. Children do not see themselves as European-----
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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It is to feel like we are all together.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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We are essentially all one.
Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan:
What I also say to the children when I go into the classroom is that this is not a pro-EU programme. I am not selling the EU to them. This pro- or anti-EU situation is detrimental to the development of the European Union. We all want a different EU that is more social and more environmental, more pro-business and more this or that. I openly tell the older students that I want a more federal EU, and I know they do not, so we discuss it. To make it progress we need to discuss it, and the programme is trying to engage the students to do that. I also mention, for good or bad, that I underestimated how connected young children are. They may be on social media, TikTok, etc., watching things that are not appropriate, but they are also aware of what is happening geopolitically.
Those discussions need to be framed in the classroom, not in the yard.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I visited a school in my constituency in county Meath with a road safety officer last week and I felt that the children would go home and say to their parents that they could not be driving with a mobile phone on their knee any more. Is there something there for parents to log on to when the children go home? Is there something on the website that allows parents to work with their children on it and have discussions themselves?
Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan:
Yes, we have an interactive game section for each age group. Anecdotally, I can say that when we organised graduation ceremonies with the pilot schools, a significant number of teachers and parents approached me to say, for example, that they were going to Portugal in the summer and the children asked if Portugal was in the European Union, or they were on the pier in Waterford and the children saw a flag and said, "Look mum, that is the EU flag". There was a sudden awareness that the parents were really impressed with or surprised by. Elsa and Sarah are in the Public Gallery today and for them, that is how it all started. Younger and older children realised that we all had the EU flag on our car registration plates. Very few people are aware of this. Little things like this are everywhere. The EU is represented a lot on roads and bridges in Ireland.
Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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Has Dr. Schön-Quinlivan spoken to the MEPs?
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. Unfortunately, I missed the beginning of the meeting because of another meeting but I am very aware of the work that is being done. I was fortunate to attend one of the two launches of the key to the EU programme in UCC and was given an opportunity to say a few words there. I mentioned the importance of active citizenship and of engaging with our young people. What we need to take from today is how to do that in a meaningful rather than tokenistic way. How can we strengthen democracy without necessarily being one-sided or pro-European?
I am a massive fan of and advocate for the European Union. Before going into politics, I spent time working in the European Commission. At the launch of the key to the EU programme in UCC, I talked about what Senator Nelson Murray spoke about earlier when she referenced her father's enthusiasm for Ireland joining the then EEC, which went from six to nine members in 1973, and what it was going to mean for Irish roads. We neglected our own responsibilities to bring people with us when it came to our attitude towards some of the treaties that were ratified. Effectively, people were asking what was in it for us. The focus was on structural funding. I mentioned that the Maastricht treaty in 1992 was about the importance of having closer integration, working towards a single currency and what that meant for fiscal responsibility but the emphasis here was more on how many billions of pounds were coming from the EU to help us build new roads and so on.
I also mentioned that I had been fortunate to have a very good relationship with an exchange family in Germany since secondary school. I remember that after our decision not to ratify the Nice treaty, which was about an enlarged European Union, new accession countries and various institutional changes that were required and when money was not coming from the EU in our direction, our attitude changed. Things were not interrogated properly when it came to changes that were being made. The message I received was "Was ist los mit Irland und Europe? Habt ihr keine Lust mehr?" meaning did Ireland not have any more interest in the European Union.
We are often in a political bubble here and are talking, particularly within our own party groups, to like-minded people. What the witnesses are doing in the schools is embracing diverse opinions. They are embracing diversity and not trying to make people think the same way. They are encouraging young children to think in a critical way, as well as encouraging participation and deliberative democracy. In the work that we carry out as leaders, given the challenges from social media, misinformation, disinformation and nefarious actors out there, are we doing enough to protect democracy? Are there particular areas that we should be focusing on? Should we be taking a stronger stand to defend democracy? Are we guilty of taking democracy for granted, particularly in the context of declining voter numbers? I am interested in hearing the views of the witnesses on that.
Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan:
I will just say a few words in response to that. Politicians and policy makers need to engage with primary school children. It is very important for them to understand that democracy is not TikTok democracy, but takes time. Not engaging with them and waiting until they are in secondary school, or worse, third level takes away - going back to the Laura Lundy model - this influence aspect where they do not feel heard because they are not in the voting age bracket. I would really encourage policy makers to go and engage with children in a meaningful way, not to go and deliver a speech and then run out. It is all about exchange, which I have tried to do in all of my events but I find it extremely difficult to find politicians who are happy to do this. It has been quite gendered. Female politicians are more likely to do it in a very interesting and meaningful way while not dumbing it down. It is very important to establish this connection with children at a young age. There is a declining trust in institutions among young people. There was an article by Pat Leahy in The Irish Times this morning that pointed out that less than half of the people in Ireland considered that the EU was going in the right direction because of migration discussions. It is something that is very-----
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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That is something that Sarah mentioned earlier in terms of not trying to change the whole world but making things better bit by bit. I broke my own rule by speaking for way too long at the outset, but do the witnesses have a view on the leadership that is being shown by politicians generally in relation to the challenges that we face in protecting democracy?
Ms Sarah Jennings:
When it comes to protecting democracy, it is all about educating young people. The programme is useful, especially at primary age. Children think about issues and about how to solve them. They are given space to develop their own views on it and to see how things are done. Being here in the Houses of the Oireachtas today is an unreal experience. If more children had TDs and politicians coming to their schools and just making themselves known, that would be good, with politicians telling children that they are here and if they have any problems, to contact them. How politicians are being viewed is how we interpret them.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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We are now going to have a second round of questions. As there are only a small number of members here, I will give everyone three minutes and I will go first this time. I just want to clarify something I said earlier about young people and, in particular, about 16-year-olds having a vote. Students who have engaged with a programme like this are a lot more informed. To build on what Senator Kelleher said a moment ago about getting higher voter participation, we are missing that civics model that was there when we were all an awful lot younger. Young people of the witnesses' age are probably more informed of the impact and the power of that particular voice at the moment and that is where I would like to see that going. Potentially, some older people would participate in that civic engagement, which would be to the betterment of everyone involved.
I know I cut Ms Brady off earlier. We were just discussing misinformation and disinformation. Is there anything she would like to add to that, such as the programmes?
Ms Leigh Brady:
Can I mention something about what the Leas-Chathaoirleach just said instead of going back? I fully and wholeheartedly agree that more engagement with civics is something that is welcome. This is a bit of a bigger point but I think protecting democracy is about how we mature as nation, individually and collectively. For example, if we see leaders being very mature and accountable to the people, that inspires trust. Bringing it back to global citizenship education, it is always about looking at a root cause analysis of problems, connecting the dots and seeing the interconnectedness. That is also linked to human rights education and part of human rights education is that accountability piece. It is a bit of a wider point and, yes, it falls within civics too.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I did not get to ask the students a question earlier. I love the idea of empowering young people. I love going out to schools, both primary and secondary schools, and listening to the questions and thought process. What barriers do the witnesses see themselves to civic engagement, social action and getting involved in things?
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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Would the other girls like to make a comment on that?
Ms Georga Rossiter:
We are not really taught that yes, we can do this. You kind of have to say that to yourself. You kind of have to get your mind set to one of you can do it if you put your mind to it. Your voice is big enough. As Sarah said, if you make enough noise, someone has to listen to you. If we made enough noise and came up here to talk about it, the committee would have to listen.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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Would you like to add anything, Phoebe?
Ms Phoebe Doyle:
As we were talking about the student voice in our opening statement, it is so vital for making change and inspiring change. Trying to find the confidence to say I do not like how this is being done or maybe could we do it this way is hard, along with trying to make that message come across. Once you find that topic or the thing you want to fight for, it-----
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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I am conscious of time and I am sorry. I do not believe any public representative ever gets up in the morning to make someone's life worse. Unless we are hearing those voices and unless the witnesses are saying that to us in a constructive way, that is the best way to make any impact on that. I will allow Senator Tully the time I have just taken.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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Just to pick up on that last point, we are here to listen but you have to make the opportunities for people to make their point. That might be part of what is being said. It is hard for students to make sure that politicians are listening to the voices of young people. We probably do need to be more visible.
From the engagement with schools, does Dr. Schön-Quinlivan feel that the delivery of EU and citizenship education is consistent nationally or is it very dependent on the teacher's interest? When I was teaching CSPE, I always had a huge interest in politics so I never had any issue teaching about the European Union, how it worked and going through all of the different stages. I was teaching history so I brought in all of the history elements of it too and the UN. I know a lot of my colleagues would not have had the same interest. How do you make it consistent?
When CSPE was introduced then, it was a compulsory subject for every student in second level. That obviously was not the case in primary school. When I go back to when I was a student many, many years ago, it was civics and we did not learn anything because often you were taught civics with another subject. That teacher might have taught you history so they just used that class as the extra history class and nobody ever checked to see whether you were being taught at a certain level. Is it different now, do the witnesses find?
Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan:
At primary level, it is entirely dependent on how much the teacher is interested in the topic. This is what motivated our programme because we thought there are about 5% of schools that are doing the blue star programme and 15% that will never engage. There has to be a middle that would engage if the tools were there. We are ten years on and we still have not managed to break the wall. This is why we are asking for visibility. We still believe the programme is good enough and easy enough to plug and play, to give enough support to the teachers to know what they are talking about, carry out meaningful activities for the children and come out the other end of it with not only children who have an awareness and in interest in the European Union but also a connection with UCC. We organise lots of citizenship days etc.
I go back to visibility. If the committee keeps one thing in mind from our contribution, it should be to help with visibility. The Senator is right; it depends on the teacher's interest at primary level currently, even though Europe and the European Union is mentioned throughout the SPHE curriculum.
Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. Schön-Quinlivan.
Ms Leigh Brady:
If you are taking it from a global citizenship education perspective, which includes EU citizenship, it is also a finding among our members' work that it is based on teachers' enthusiasm and commitment. However, there is a huge push for whole-school approaches. For example, WorldWise Global Schools has managed to engage with about 70% of post-primary schools in the past 12 or 13 years and 25% of those have a global passport, which means they received a certificate for having a whole-school approach to global citizenship education. That means getting everyone on board, like the school leaders and the wider community such as parents, students and teachers, so it does not just rely on one teacher. That is a case that happens where you have one very enthusiastic teacher but if they move on or-----
Mr. Ruairí McKiernan:
It is often the luck of the draw. For me, Phoebe captured something really powerful and poignant when she said it is often by chance. I know from my own journey and probably like many of the committee members, how we became interested in the world, politics or whatever it might be was often by chance. This is way too important to leave to chance. It needs to be embedded. It needs to be mainstream. It needs to be universal. It cannot just be up to the good fortune of a particular school, particular area or a particular teacher. That is why mainstreaming it is so important.
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise for being late. Funnily enough, I was actually meeting with the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, about issues with the solar industry and trying to roll out more sustainable energy. I thank everyone for coming in. Can I ask what year the girls are in? Is it transition year, fifth year or sixth year?
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Okay, so they are in fifth year, which was my important question. I was a secondary school teacher myself before I was elected. I taught Irish and French but since I got involved in local politics back in 2019, I also did an awful lot of substitute teaching. One of the common subjects I was teaching was either LCVP or well-being. Obviously, there is a civics or political strand in that. It was so interesting. We had a huge school with a lot of different class groups in each year. You would go from one class to another where, for one class, it would be totally normal to say take out the books and let us have a look at X, Y or Z, such as global citizenship. In another class, they would usually tell you we usually just do our homework. What is it like for the witnesses in school? How much is it leaned into for them in school? What has their experience been in fifth year, because we are nearly at the end of fifth year now?
Ms Sarah Jennings:
We do leaving certificate business and we were fortunate enough to travel to Munich in Germany and Brussels in Belgium. We were brought to the EU headquarters and we got to meet Nina Carberry. She knew who we were so we were honoured. We were very lucky and we were given information on the EU. In fifth year, we have religion and SPHE. We do not study CSPE. We study CSPE from first to third year.
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Yes but on the SPHE side or the well-being side, how much is it leaned into? It is part of the curriculum. I have seen it in some of the classes I went to when I was subbing that it was just an accidental day of teaching politics as a politician, which was a buzz for me but the students hated it.
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, which I think is a problem. I am obviously a political nerd. I thank the witnesses for being so interested and coming in. It is really important. I remember when I was way younger a debate in the Seanad between Senator Lynn Ruane and another Senator in which the debate on the vote at 16 came up. The other Senator, who I will not name, said that they should go back and be children, be young, forget about it and stop being so full of notions. That was the kind of dismissive attitude that came into it. It is great to see the witnesses involved and they should keep the interest in what they are doing. It is good to see them at it.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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I would like to tease out the key points here, among which is recognition. The witnesses have made it clear that it is not a funding request visit or anything along those lines but one for recognition and support. I would like to ask about the possibility, as things develop, for engagement, co-operation and interaction with pupils of schoolgoing age in other countries, the extent to which language would be a barrier, and the possible benefits that might be derived from that. Would they like to comment?
Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan:
I thank the Senator for his questions. I will let Ms Collier say something about this but thanks to funding we have received, we were able to relaunch the websites, keytotheeu.com, which the Senator launched himself. We have a new web designer who is all about solutions - no problems, only solutions. She has found a way - this is going to happen in the next two years - where every single page will be accessible in the 23 languages. So far, Irish is not accessible but maybe in two years' time it will be. The website will be accessible with regard to activities, lesson plans, lesson slides and quizzes in all of the working EU languages. At the moment, we have the programme translated in Irish from third class onwards. We ran out of funding on that part to do the younger classes. Ms Collier might mention the engagement we have had with the Department of education during Covid.
Ms Trish Collier:
During Covid, we had an online meeting with officials from the Department of education, including the inspectorate. They were very impressed with the programme itself. One of the recommendations they made was that we start at preschool level, which I think is feasible but our concentration at the moment is primary level. With the new curriculum bringing in the languages as well, I think that opens up links to link with other European countries as we are doing the languages and the Say Yes to Languages programme that is being rolled out at the moment. We have had communications with them as well.
Garret Kelleher (Fine Gael)
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Are they given the opportunity then to engage with Irish primary school children, or is it that they are being taught that within their own curriculum?
Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan:
They are taught that within their own curriculum. It got out of hand, as in we are only two people, but I created an e-twinning project because I wanted to see how powerful it would be. It was very powerful but very time-consuming. That gave the opportunity, though, where we had about ten schools in Ireland connecting with schools across the European Union. It was fantastic because they had a couple of Zoom meetings, discussing their similarities, differences and commonalities but it is very time-consuming. I am now leaving the e-twinning project to the teachers. We are focusing on the programme, as such, but we hope to make the programme accessible to all classrooms in all languages across the European Union. I am working with the European Commission on this.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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What we are going to do now, because we have a small bit of time left over, is let each of the groups speak for two minutes, if there is anything they would like to finish off on. You do not all have to speak - do not be worried about anything like that. There may be something they feel they have not got across during the questions that they would like to add. I call Dr. Schön-Quinlivan.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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It is not a Roscommon name anyway; that is why I am having trouble with it.
Dr. Emmanuelle Schön-Quinlivan:
In many ways French. In west Clare, it will work. I thank the committee very much for the opportunity. It has been really fantastic for us to communicate with members. We have been doing this for ten years. We are very passionate about it. We think it is essential to the health of our liberal democracy in Ireland and the European Union. As members understand, we think we lack visibility. It is the last hurdle for us to try to engage teachers as much as possible. Ultimately, this is a programme that connects with the curriculum. We are not asking for curriculum change.
To connect with one of the points made earlier, in France you would have a stand-alone, separated civics course. It is not the majority in the European Union. There are about three countries in the European Union with a stand-alone civics course. The majority would have what Ireland has - a kind of integrated, cross-curricular approach. Our belief is that teaching through democracy is engaging and interesting but is not enough. Running an election to choose what kind of activity you are going to do in physical education, PE, is good but it does not teach you about the institutional and political values of your country or of the European Union. We did not come here with an ask to make an active citizenship stand-alone course because we know the primary curriculum has just been redone so it will take another 20 years. I will be retired by then. We are aware that the lens on active citizenship needs to be much more tightly focused on active citizenship within the well-being programme. That would be my ask.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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Perfect, thank you. We are on time. I am trying to keep it to the two minutes-----
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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-----because you have sandwiches coming, as far as I know. I call Mr. McKiernan.
Mr. Ruairí McKiernan:
I will return to the somewhat sobering urgency of the moment, when we look at what is going on in the Middle East, Gaza, Lebanon, Iran and beyond. The multilateral world order is in crisis. There is a climate emergency - as we talked about today - misinformation and disinformation. We have, indeed, witnessed polarisation in our own homes, families, communities and workplaces. It is a painful thing to witness in a republic that was fought for, in a country where peace has been hard won on the island. We are at a moment of reckoning.
I was struck by Senator Nelson Murray mentioning earlier that we are all one. She was talking about in a European context but we also have to return to the humanitarian context. We are all one. We need to remain in contact with each other and each other's community and humanity and not turn on each other. To do that, we need the resourcing spaces and connection and to ensure we stay in some kind of a dialogue with each other as politicians, people in the community and in classrooms - that we do not turn left, right or otherwise, that we try to stay open. There is a real leadership opportunity for Ireland here and Ireland is already recognised as a leader in the EU on global citizenship and education. It is time to double down and step up. I will let Ms Brady finish.
Ms Leigh Brady:
There is not much more to say. However, we brought our policy document with us, which we will give to members. It is called Vision 2030: Towards a Society of Active Global Citizens. Of course, there is not a lot of detail we can go into today but this contains all the detail about the current state of play in regard to global citizenship education in Ireland in the different areas: formal, non-formal and informal. It talks about how this links very clearly to education for sustainable development, which we did not talk a lot about today. I know that is more the remit of this committee, with the committees that shadow the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, DFHERIS, and the Department of children.
This is very much interlinked, and we would love to see closer cross-departmental co-ordination on that. I reiterate that I do not think it is a question of us, the option-curious, now learning about the world; it is more like the world is here now, in our lives. Everyone needs to understand how interconnected and interdependent we are, and global citizenship education helps us to do that.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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Would the students from Coláiste Bhríde-----
Ms Georga Rossiter:
Throughout the junior cert, we are told it is like a practice run for the leaving cert, but then we are also told that it actually does not matter what you get, which makes us confused because it can really be only one or the other. From first year all the way up to third year, we learn that we are learning this to get to the junior cert. We put so much time and effort into it and then, after we have done it, from a person who put so much effort into it to a person who did not, they could get the same mark. That could bring down the former person by a lot. Their mental health could hit rock bottom because they could be like, "Why did I put so much effort into it just to get the same mark as a person who didn't?"
Ms Sarah Jennings:
We are just asking for a common-sense approach to be applied here. If I do an exam, why am I not entitled to the percentage mark for the exam? Some 74,000 students sit the junior cert annually, and we are told this is the be-all and end-all and a stepping stone to the leaving cert, but we are not given our grades. It just really does not make sense.
Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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There are some future Senators in this room.
Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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Sarah, you mentioned a common-sense approach. That is probably the most used line in these Houses. It is not always the easiest to put into practice but it is one of the most used lines, so you have potentially just highlighted yourself and singled yourself out as a future candidate.
To the committee, I propose that we write a letter to the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Youth asking that officials meet with Dr. Schön-Quinlivan and Ms Collier with a view to rolling out My Big Friendly Guide to the EU nationwide. The Secretary General will be asked to revert to the committee when a date for the meeting has been confirmed. The letter will also ask that the NCCA and the youth officials present to this committee with regard to having the guide on the SPHE curriculum and teacher training, respectively. Is that agreed? Agreed.
I would also like to get a letter to the Secretary General asking for an urgent response to Young Social Innovators' submission on the junior certificate for the committee to consider further.
I also propose that a letter go to the Minister, Deputy Naughton, asking her to indicate when the student and parent charter Bill will be enacted and how it will be implemented. I believe the enactment of that legislation would signal the Department's commitment to genuine student and parental involvement in the collective decision-making around education. That is in response to the project.
We will try to get responses to all those letters. Is that agreed? Agreed.
On behalf of the committee, I thank all the witnesses for coming here. The discussion was very beneficial and productive. The members, I would say, have learned a lot and we have got a lot of insight and perspective from the witnesses' presentations. We thank them for that. I also commend the students here, both the witnesses and those in the viewing Gallery. Your projects and findings and the changes that have come about because of your work are an outstanding achievement. Young people are our future and, based on the evidence today, our future is in very safe hands. Thank you for that.
Before I adjourn the meeting I would like to acknowledge a member of the secretariat, Jack Nugent, who is finishing up today. I think he logged off before I had the opportunity to single him out and I think he refrained from attending today in order that he would not be singled out. Jack usually sits in the chair to my right. He has been away on a number of expeditions with a number of the committees. We are very appreciative of all the work of the committee and we wish Jack the very best of luck in the next stage.