Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Our next item for discussion is the bovine viral diarrhoea, BVD, eradication programme. I will go through the statement on privilege for the witnesses. Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means that a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity.

Witnesses who are giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as those giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

We are going to hear from Mr. Patrick Donohoe, CEO of Animal Health Ireland. Tá fáilte roimhe. We will also hear from Dr. Maria Guelbenzu, BVD programme manager. Tá fáilte roimpi. The witnesses' submission has been circulated to the members. I will give Mr. Donohoe five minutes to go through it. We will then have an opportunity for questions.

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

It is a pleasure to be before the committee today. On behalf of the board and the team at Animal Health Ireland, AHI, we sincerely thank members for the invitation to address the committee. I am joined by Dr. Maria Guelbenzu, programme manager for the BVD eradication programme, and, having worked in this area for many years, the country's foremost authority on BVD.

AHI is a not-for-profit public-private partnership that was established in 2009. It brings together farmers, vets, industry and the Government. We work on behalf of our stakeholders and are focused on controlling endemic diseases that significantly impact Irish farming profitability through reduced production, fertility issues and increased veterinary costs. Key health programmes managed by AHI include IBR, Johne’s disease, mastitis control, lameness, calf health, pig health and - the reason we are here today - BVD. In the context of all of our programmes, we gather all the best scientific advice that we can through our technical working groups and then programme operational strategies are discussed and agreed at implementation groups that consist of all stakeholders, including farmers, their representatives, vets and so on.

I want to paint a picture for the committee of where we have come from and where we are now. It is 6 May 2011. Spring-calving herds have just finished and the breeding season has commenced. BVD is rampant across the country. Fast forward to today, 6 May, and we are truly on the cusp of BVD freedom. BVD did not arrive suddenly into Ireland. BVD is a highly infectious disease. It hijacks the immune system of an unborn calf, creating a persistently infected animal that sheds virus silently, quietly infecting animals around it before, in some instances, anyone even knows it is there. It became endemic in Ireland the same way it did across most of the cattle-producing world: gradually, over decades, through live animal trade.

By the time the compulsory eradication programme launched on 1 January 2013, the virus had been circulating in Irish herds for so long that herd-level antibody prevalence was approaching 100%. That year, 9,066 Irish herds, approximately 11.7% of the national breeding herd, had BVD. Roughly one in every nine herds in the country. By end of last year, that number had fallen to around 200 herds. Today, we have approximately 100 herds remaining. Although the figure will rise this year, we are seeing a positive trend and a good direction of travel.

Since the start of the programme, there has been reduction of more than 97%. That is what collective effort looks like. That collective effort element is crucial because this is a programme that started in response to an ask from farmers, vets, scientists and academics as well as the wider industry. The 2010 Delphi policy study, which involved significant farmer surveying and consultation, found that a BVD eradication programme was critical.

This was not a solo run by AHI or something that we set up by ourselves. It was an ask of industry, including farmers. I sincerely thank the farmers, some of whom were at the committee today, who have diligently tagged and tested their calves each year. They are the ones who have driven this programme forward. I also thank the vets, industry bodies and the Department of agriculture for the vision and leadership they showed in establishing it.

I accept that the duration of this programme has caused frustration. This frustration is legitimate. Unfortunately, eradication of a disease is not a simple exercise. It is impacted by many possible variables, including the behaviour of the disease agent; the animal populations affected; the availability, effectiveness and appropriate usage of vaccines; and human behaviour. Progress is rarely linear and can be an uphill battle, at times requiring tweaks and changes. However, the facts speak for themselves. The BVD programme has delivered, is delivering and will deliver BVD freedom if we stand together and finish the job.

Each year, we work with the BVD technical working group and implementation group to develop and introduce further measures that supress BVD. Each year, these measures have worked. Our focus in 2026, which Dr. Guelbenzu will talk about, is building on biosecurity, vaccination, forward tracing and other ways to supress this virus. The programme has also delivered for the economy. A study carried out by IFAC for AHI last year found that the BVD programme delivers annual savings of €183 million through healthier animals, reduced antibiotic usage and so on.

To conclude, I will offer two cautionary notes from our own history. In 1990, Ireland was down to just nine herds with brucellosis. That programme was let slip and it took the best part of two decades to finish. In the 1960s, the then Minister for Agriculture, Charlie Haughey, wrote to his Department staff to thank them for eradicating TB. The country was down to just over 40 herds with TB. This too was let slip. We cannot allow the same to happen with BVD. We are at the end of the journey. We must be brave, go full throttle and finish what farmers, vets, industry and Government started 14 years ago. We can do this and we will do this if we stand together and finish the job.

That is the opening statement. I am very happy to take questions from everybody. I again give thanks for the support. We launched an action plan at the back end of last year. Many of the committee members who are now here were present. I thank the committee for its support. I am absolutely happy to answer any and all questions.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The numbers definitely suggest that a lot of headway has been made.

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

It is about the tail, however. The tail can be the challenging bit of any disease.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Donohoe has said the figure is expected to rise this year.

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

Today is 6 May. We are at 100 or so herds today. We are over the spring calving element but there will still be some cows calving now and there will also be autumn calvers. We expect the figure to rise naturally, given the trend and profile of cows calving over the rest of the year. Compared with last year, the trend has improved significantly. There has been a 44% reduction in the number of affected calves and there are 17% or 18% fewer affected herds. We are on a good road but we have to finish it now.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the witnesses. Mr. Donohoe has been here before. The last time, he was in the seats behind where he is now.

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

As a result, I know the Senator will go very easy on us.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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Mr. Donohoe is welcome back. I will go very easy on him. This is his first visit in this chair. I welcome AHI's submission and report. It is a good news story in a disease eradication context, if that is not a contradiction in itself. I was really taken by Mr. Donohoe's conclusion because one of the first questions I was going to ask was when we are going to be finished with BVD testing. He made the case for caution very well. I was actually going to compare BVD to the USC, which was supposed to have been done away with but which never has been. At the end, Mr. Donohoe spoke about how close we got to getting rid of TB before taking our eye off the ball. In that context, does he believe we will be able to finish with testing at all?

I have two questions about the current testing system. There are a lot of horror stories about An Post and the samples. I know that is beyond AHI's control. I have dealings with the labs and their work is 100%. That is one area we can control. I have heard some horror stories about samples going missing and not arriving. Will AHI comment on that? Is it just that my area is unlucky?

My other question relates to a hobby horse of mine, namely, encouraging the maintenance of the testing because we now have such a good system with the ear tissue and the tag. While I know the bluetongue test uses blood, surely we can use that tissue to test for a lot more than BVD. Where there is a will, there is a way. It may not be ideal to test that tissue for bluetongue given that a blood test is normally used but science is unbelievable. We have this system in place and every farmer is used to it at this stage. They have to tag the animal. A lot of farmers are getting tissue samples from both ears for the ICBF and the genotyping. It is common practice. When we have that at our disposal and when we have the infrastructure in place with the labs, notwithstanding the issues with An Post, could we not get an awful lot more from those samples?

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

I will take the first part, which related to An Post, and perhaps Dr. Guelbenzu could answer on the samples. I am hugely frustrated with the An Post side of things. When a calf drops, 99.9% of farmers will tag it, get a batch of samples ready and send it in as soon as possible. That is key. Getting calves tagged and getting the samples away early for testing is the number one thing farmers can do. We had a campaign on that this year called "Tag. Bag. Test." It is about getting things moving. The labs are doing 100% as well. However, there is a middle ground that is causing frustration for us and that is An Post. We have expressed our annoyance and concern to An Post. It has relayed to us that it prioritises packages and parcels over envelopes. It has to make sure it runs its business properly. I get that. However, when we have a weakness in our chain that is not the fault of farmers, vets, labs, AHI or the industry, that is a real annoyance. It is really concerning that the message to AHI is to send samples via registered post. Some farmers do that but that is not 100% effective either. There are delays there as well. It is also suggested that farmers should igather up a few samples and send them as a parcel. That goes against the need to get tags away and tested so that we will know if there is a persistently infected, PI, sample in there.

We have expressed our annoyance to An Post. We have also tried to circumvent it as best we can. We have worked with co-ops, which have been very-----

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of time. I would like to hear something on the other question.

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

They have been very good. We have to circumvent it. We are not happy with An Post. We have to find ways to make it better for next year.

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

I agree that the whole tissue tag testing system is very good. It is now well established and everybody is really used to it. Allowing farmers to take their own samples is also very efficient and much cheaper. Unfortunately, it is only the BVD virus that we can detect from the sample. This is for various reasons. The first is that the biology of the disease means that it is one of the few that appear in samples taken from the tip of the ear. The other test that can be done is genomic testing but unfortunately we cannot detect antibodies in these samples. There are currently no other diseases we can detect in this way. It is not like a blood sample, where a whole range of antibodies can be tested for. Although it is very positive that we have a good system and that farmers can do this themselves, unfortunately, there are no other possibilities associated with it.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
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That is a pity.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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We meet again. Mr. Donohoe, Deputy Kenny and I met last week on "The Joe Finnegan Show". I will raise a couple of things. One is the timeframe. The programme began in 2011. It is now 2026. I think it was meant to take five years. We are now getting close to the end but we are not at the end. Why is that?

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

I thank the Senator. Definitive dates have been put on this before. It is not helpful to put a definitive date on it now. The commitment that I will make, along with the rest of AHI, is that we are going absolutely full throttle to get this done as soon as possible. Commitments may have been made at the start that this would be done in a given timeframe.

We cannot unring the bell, but you have to look at where we were and where we are. I mentioned in the outline the progress that has been made. I am reluctant to put a date on it because I do not think that will be helpful, and if we miss that target, then it becomes another stick to beat a really good programme. It has delivered an enormous amount for the Exchequer and for farmers, with fewer veterinary visits, fewer antibiotics and less drips going into calves. The commitment I make today is that it is a top priority in AHI to get this eradicated as soon as possible.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Within a five-year period?

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

As soon as possible. It is our number one priority.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Is it going to drag on?

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

We cannot let it drag on. We are down to the tail now. The progress that has been made even in 2026 versus 2025 has been huge.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Mr. Donohoe said earlier that we have been down to the tail before with TB, and now look at TB. Will this be another fiasco?

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

No, it is not.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Are enough resources in place to really deal with this?

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

It is not a programme of the same size or scale as a TB eradication programme, which is fair and valid. There are good resources behind it. Every year, as we said, we work with the technical working group and implementation group to develop new measures to suppress the virus, and every year, they have worked. There could possibly be more resources divested from the Department for veterinary inspection at the peak calving season to help and support that. All you have to do is look at the facts and figures on where we have come from, where we are today and how close we are to eradicating this. I do not think putting a timeframe on it is helpful. We have to go full throttle, put the foot down and get this done as soon as possible.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Everybody talks about biosecurity. We know that this is done. The witnesses mentioned the availability of vaccines. How readily available is a vaccine?

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

The vaccine is readily available. We know that the uses of the vaccine have decreased over the last few years, so the last figure that we have is for 2024, where around 400,000 doses were sold. We do not know exactly where they have been sold, but we are using vaccines in the context of any herd that has any positive results, so they are vaccinated in the year when they have the outbreak, and also the following year. We use the vaccine to improve immunity and make sure that the herds are left in a good state and can really fight the disease.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am delighted that the witnesses are here and I thank them for their contribution. We were down to nine herds with brucellosis and 40 herds with tuberculosis. We are in the home straight with regard to BVD. I do not know whether this can happen or not. If we were to make sure it is completely eradicated and, maybe the year after, we were completely free of it, and if the same was done with brucellosis and tuberculosis, would we be free or will it always come back? That was my first reaction to it.

Farmers have co-operated 110% on this scheme and on every scheme that comes out. It is getting harder, as the witnesses know. We have bluetongue, again and everything has to be injected into the cows again. It is not easy on farmers but they react straight away for animal health. I acknowledge that at this forum. I see it costs €9 a head now to vaccinate for bluetongue, and everyone has vaccinated for bluetongue, because the vets are saying it is the proper thing to do. Farmers follow the proper thing to do.

Will the witnesses explain why the BVD eradication timeline has repeatedly slipped and what failures are responsible for that?

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

The programme has made progress all these years. To put it in the context of other programmes in Europe that have the same surveillance method, which have also used the tissue tag, Switzerland was the pioneer in this. The Swiss started in 2008. It was slightly different because they did the whole herd and then started doing calves. The issue with that is a bit like with brucellosis, in that they changed the surveillance method because it was just too expensive, and its prevalence has increased.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Who changed it?

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

The government.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The department of agriculture changed it.

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

In Switzerland. It is nearly eradicated now but the Swiss had a bit of a blip. It took them from 2008 until now. Another example is Germany, which started doing tissue tag testing in 2011, but Germany has had a voluntary programme since 1998. It was coming from a much lower level of disease. Germany is mostly free at the moment and only has small pockets of this.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Can Animal Health Ireland provide a full cost-benefit assessment of the BVD eradication programmes, including the total cost borne by farmers and the Exchequer? A round figure is fine.

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

Broadly, between the testing, postage and so on, there is an overall cost of about €13 million. Farmers, between dairy and beef, are probably carrying 65%, with Department supports, which fund the first 25 tests per herd and so on, carrying about 35%.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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The farmer is carrying 65%. Going back to An Post, we always registered the post to make sure that we got it, because there were timelines for selling calves and so on. Has the programme delivered value for money compared with AHI's original projections?

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

Deputy Aird was at the action plan launch last year. I thank him for that. The analysis that was carried out last year by the International Federation of Accountants, IFAC, on behalf of AHI, showed there is a €183 million benefit to the economy from the BVD eradication programme. There are more and healthier calves. The Deputy is probably putting in fewer drips and antibiotics. It is not all BVD. There has been progress in other areas, but BVD is a big part of that. The Deputy is right that we are in the home straight. Farmers are absolutely compliant and have led the way on this. I could not agree with the Deputy more.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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What is the biggest remaining risk to achieving BVD-free status?

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

One of the things that worries us is if there is an outbreak in large herds that trade very widely. The risks remain the same. They are animal movement, location of the herds, and the background of the herd, which is whether it has had BVD before. The risk is still the virus leakage, which means the virus still being transmitted to other herds. This is why, this year, we introduced a couple more measures for our tracing, trying to look at any movements that have happened on a farm that could carry any risk of the virus leaving the farm before the farmer knew there was any issue with BVD. There is also the pre-movement test, which means keeping any herd that has had any issues a little tighter. We know these are hard measures for the farmers who are affected but we are trying to contain the virus and prevent it from getting into other farms.

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

We know that herds within 400 m of a positive herd have a one in seven chance of becoming positive. That goes back to biosecurity, which Senator Brady referred to. Good neighbours make good fences and good fences make good neighbours. That is important and we need to step it up. If we had biosecurity sorted in every which way, we would be well along the road with many diseases.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for their opening statements. It always strikes me that talking about an eradication programme can sometimes be dangerous.

We want to get it to a point where you almost always have to have control measures in place, even if you have disease-free status. I would like to get the witnesses' comments on that. Senator Brady said we are talking about a situation whereby within a certain period we can say BVD is gone and we can all go home. That would be very unwise, but I would like to get the witnesses' view as to, if we do get to that status, what maintenance of control needs to be kept in place.

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

That is quite correct. We cannot let the situation lie. We have already done quite a lot of work on the technical working group in thinking through what we can do once we gain freedom. Once we know that there is no more BVD in the country, what other measures will we have instead of tissue tag testing? There are several surveillance methods that can be applied from bull tank milk test to young stock check testing. We developed and worked on a range of measures, and these will be put forward again to the BVD implementation group for decision. The Deputy is totally right: even when we are free, we will have to have somehow some surveillance that will allow us to make sure that it does not resurface.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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That there is not a resurgence. What Dr. Guelbenzu is talking about is an alternative to the current tag test or whatever we want to call it. If we are going to have an alternative to that, how sure are we that it will be effective? Obviously, what we have now is what we know to be effective. What if we go to something different and it is not effective? One of the differences in Ireland and in most other countries where there are issues like this relates to the movement of cattle. We have bovines moving up and down the country all the time, in and through marts. In a lot of other jurisdictions, cattle never leave the farms they were born on. It is entirely different here. That is why it is so much harder to control all diseases in Ireland compared with other jurisdictions. How can we be sure that if we do have an alternative, it will actually work?

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

The Deputy is totally right. That was one of the exercises we did to look at each surveillance method to see how long it would take to detect if you have a PI and how much would it cost. Those are the considerations that have been given. Of course, the other surveillance methods can also be quite good. They have been used in other countries, but these were discussed in the implementation group and it was agreed that it was important to continue the tissue tag testing, at least until we know there is no more BVD in the country. Otherwise, it is too risky and it might take longer to detect and then the disease may spread further.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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With regard to the volume of work AHI does on BVD, it is probably well more than 50% of its work. If we reach a stage where we are disease free, is AHI looking at focusing on other diseases or issues? I know it covers mastitis, lameness, calf health and other issues there, but is it looking at playing in a role in respect of, for example, bluetongue, which is obviously the one everyone is talking about? Is it looking at that into the future, or what is the-----

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

We are not looking beyond BVD. We have control programmes in place. There has been a lot of progress on mastitis control. Our calf care programme has been very successful. There are Johne's disease and IBR, which Dr. Guelbenzu also works on, but we are not looking beyond BVD. The success of AHI is that we are really involved with the industry, that we have pulled together farmers, their reps, vets, industry and the Government and we kind of implement and do what they ask us to do. If something else comes on the horizon, we are there to help and support. A healthy animal is going to take on so much more importance in the time ahead, with environmental realities and regulations, generational renewal, all those things. If you are Deputy Aird milking cows this evening or tomorrow, you are going to want a healthy cow that will produce for longer into the season and for more lactations. If Senator Brady needs to get a weanling or a store animal finished earlier, health is the key element in all that. As to how our programmes develop and evolve over time, we will be led by the industry and what it wants, but we are not looking past what we have. It is beyond critical to get the BVD job done.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Does AHI see bluetongue as a critical-----

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

If that is something that, say, the Department of agriculture thinks we can add value with or can help and support the control of, we will be absolutely happy to help.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in. What is the timeframe from when the farmer does the tag sample to getting to the lab and then, if it is positive, to vaccination?

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

Typically, as soon as a positive result comes back, the result gets to the database and the farmer first gets a text message. This is followed by a phone call by the health desk during which they tell the farmer exactly all the points and the control plan that they have to comply with. During that conversation the farmer also nominates a vet - it has to be one of the trained vets - in order that the vet can do some aspects of what comes next, the control plan. Under the control plan, any virus-positive animal must be removed, and there are financial supports which, thankfully, this year have increased. The next step is to do a whole herd test. The vet will go in and sample every single animal on the farm and, if there are any positives, only when all those animals have been resolved, if the pre-test is negative, is that completed. Then there is also an epidemiological investigation, a TASAH investigation. The vet has some tools in the database but then he or she will go to the farm and will try to go with the farmer through some questions, first of all, to try to find out, if they can, where the virus came in-----

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Moved in or out.

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

Exactly, and then to provide up to three by security recommendations for that farm in order that this problem does not come back. For example, if he bought a pregnant animal, to be careful next time as to where to buy those animals. Then the final point is that all the breeding animals will be vaccinated. It is only when all those aspects are completed as regards everything in the database that herd level restriction will be lifted on that farm. One of the things I meant to say is that the farm is immediately restricted for buying and selling.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. Guelbenzu said that there were so many vaccinations bought but AHI did not know where they were, so it is not a case of having to have a cert from a vet, or will that change in order that AHI can pinpoint where they are going?

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

That is a very good question. At the moment, obviously, everybody can order a vaccination and get the vaccination. For the herds that are having the vaccination as part of the programme, we take note. One of the conditions is that the vet tells us exactly which animals are vaccinated. When we get freedom, as part of the EU law, we have to stop vaccinating in the country. Therefore, it will become restricted.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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On the tags with An Post, obviously, if we take a sample on one of the calves, we have to bring it to the post office. Ideally, you do not want to bring one; you want to do a few together. Into the later spring, however, you have a few straggler cows calving and you might have one this week, maybe one next week, or whatever - a few heifers. Was any thought ever given to people dropping tags to, say, a co-op and that An Post would collect it from there? If I had one, Deputy Aird had one and Deputy Kenny had one, we could drop them in one by one as they were done in order that they would be fresh - and would not have been sitting in somebody's fridge for whatever length of time - and would be are collected as and when needed.

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

That is a really important point that we have explored this year. It probably came a bit later in the year for us and it is something we will focus on for the heavy spring calving in 2027. We have to try to do our best to circumvent An Post as much as possible. It is an important one and it is a good system, but the advice from it to us is that its focus is not on envelopes but on packages and parcels. We have spoken to the co-ops and they are all open to acting as important staging posts from getting from farm to co-op or mart and then on to lab.

We now have to see how we make sure we get from that staging post to the lab. It will be an important release valve.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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I think it will be good for the co-ops too. You can always drop in to buy something when you are there. Is cross-Border an issue when you have Northern Ireland and southern Ireland? We spoke about this with bluetongue and everything else. How is that affecting BVD?

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

That is a good point. In Northern Ireland they have had a similar programme since 2016. Unfortunately, for some reason they took a bit longer to bring in measures like herd restrictions. However, that is all in place now. We have good collaboration. Animal Health and Welfare Northern Ireland is a kind of sister organisation. We have a lot of collaboration and lately we have created a cross-Border group to address this because we have seen that some areas close to the Border, both North and South, have higher incidence of the disease.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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Was that group only put in place this year?

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

Yes, although there has been collaboration from the start. That organisation is part of the technical working group and the implementation group.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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How are they doing up there?

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

The incidence in Northern Ireland has gone down, so they are making progress but they are probably slightly behind us.

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

They are, and the Deputy is right. Diseases do not respect borders. If we are to be a success in Ireland, we have to be a success in Northern Ireland as well.

Natasha Newsome Drennan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Sinn Fein)
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So, a united Ireland will sort all that out.

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

There are push and pull elements. That is as much as I will say. However, we have to treat it in that way because there is a hotspot around Monaghan and south Armagh and we have to tackle that, which, in fairness, we are doing.

There is something Dr. Guelbenzu mentioned, and I thank the committee because some members supported this. For the first time since 2019, there was an increase in financial support for calves, from €220 to €320 for beef and from €160 to €200 for dairy calves. I acknowledge the work of some members of the committee in helping to push that forward. It is the first time since 2019 that calf compensation rates have increased.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I have a couple of questions from different people who wanted to have points raised with the witnesses. There are farmers who were in early and are really looking forward to getting finished with it. They are conscious of what they need to do to keep clear. They have been testing clear on it all the way. They have some questions. The first question was asked earlier, and was about how soon they can expect to get finished with it. If they are testing clear all the time, can they change the sample rate to fewer calves and in that way reduce the costs and the hassle? That is a question from local people. The next question concerns the accuracy of the test. Does it show false positives and false negatives? How accurate is the test? The final question is about the percentage of empty samples or samples that for different reasons cannot be tested. Will the witnesses indicate what that is?

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

I will let Dr. Guelbenzu take some of those. The answer to the first question is "as soon as possible". No stone is being left unturned. It is a single focus for us to get this done. I am not going to put a time on it. I will give a commitment to any farmer in this room or watching online, that we are going hammer and tongs, full throttle and with our shoulder to the wheel to get this done. That is far as I can go in a commitment, but it will be as soon as possible.

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

On the question of whether farmers whose tests are clear can test fewer animals, at the moment what we see is that will increase the risk of the disease going unnoticed. At the moment, we are keeping with everybody having to test all the animals. We will consider those types of measures once we get free and we can be more sure that the disease is not in the country.

The test is very accurate. We are lucky with this disease in comparison with tuberculosis and Johne's disease. There are more false negatives than false positives. These are a small percentage. We keep an eye on any cases like this. However, with millions of samples tested every year, we know the incidence of those cases is very small.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is that very small as in under 10% or under 1%?

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

It is very much under 1%. On the percentage of empty samples, we always run at approximately 0.7% or so, but sometimes these increase. For example, if there is a change in the tags or taggers, the percentage might increase slightly, but it is normally steady at approximately 0.7%.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Donohoe for bringing up the compensation for the calves. However, to be fair to the farmers they are easily losing a minimum of €200 per head on that.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Calves are dear.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is what I mean, but are they? Was it not that they were cheap before? That is what it was.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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There is a great price for them in Macroom.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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There is a lot of talk about the spread of TB. It is from this badger or that badger or it might be the deer or anything. Let us look at the statistics the witnesses have given us on brucellosis and TB. If we were to get free from BVD, what could trigger it to come back again? Have they that research done?

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

It is probably more likely to come in through animals, this being an island. The European legislation already in place states that animals coming in have to be tested. It is more likely to come in through animals.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is animals that come in from another country. We are not calling Northern Ireland that. Therefore, if she were sitting in front of the powers that be, would Dr. Guelbenzu be happy to recommend, once we are at the end of our game and completely free of BVD, that we stop this? Would she be able to stand over stopping it? It cannot happen if we have a closed herd within the island. We would never see it happen. Am I getting that right from listening to her?

Dr. Maria Guelbenzu:

We still have to be vigilant for a period of time and continue a certain level of testing. The longer we are free, the more confident we can be of reducing the amount of testing we do. Especially during the first years after eradication, we will have to maintain a level of testing.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Everybody tells me to go back to the 48 herds and the devastation that happened following that. If we had kept on doing something different at that stage, would we have the devastation we have had for the past 15 or 20 years? I am just asking those questions.

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

That is why it is our single focus to get this done as soon as possible. We profiled a farmer from Durrow in the Deputy's constituency, who had BVD earlier this year, to show the impact it can have. This was a dairy farmer from Durrow who had never had BVD. He had one calf with it last year and that one went to 17. There was the challenge and emotional stress put on him and the logistics challenge of feeding extra calves and holding them all until the spring season. It is a bad disease. We are resting on our laurels.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am not saying they are resting on their laurels; Mr. Donohoe should not get me wrong. I am asking if we can learn. I cannot stress the devastation enough. We all know people, and the Chair has met them in his community, whose herds went down with TB and the mental stress and devastation that caused. There was brucellosis before that, which was horrible. Every farmer got up in the morning to go out to look at his cows and if there was a calf throwing. It was devastation. Vets contracted brucellosis as well.

Can we learn from history to put something in place that does not come back? That is all I am asking.

Mr. Patrick Donohoe:

I hear the Deputy 100%. That is a point in the technical working group. We will keep considering that.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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On behalf of the committee, I thank Mr. Donohoe for the report. The figures are very strong. It is hugely important to finish it out and go full steam ahead on it. Go raibh maith agaibh.