Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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No member has notified the committtee of their inability to attend today. At the outset, I advise members of the constitutional requirements that members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

The first item on the agenda is the minutes of the meeting of 15 April. They have been circulated. Are they agreed? Agreed.

The next item on the agenda is the issue relating to the arterial drainage (amendment) Bill 2026. Before we move to correspondence, I want to mention this Bill. We previously spoke about the request from the Minister, Deputy Chambers, regarding commencing pre-legislative scrutiny or not. It was agreed at the meeting on 15 April that members would consider the documentation further and that the secretariat would arrange for a briefing from Department officials. We have arranged the briefing with officials for next Wednesday. Is that agreed? Agreed. We can decide then, if we get an adequate briefing, that we may not need to do the pre-legislative scrutiny, because they both essentially cover the same ground. We can decide that next week.

We have received correspondence, R-2026-0026, a citizen's inquiry on the wind energy guidelines. This correspondence was received from Mr. Darragh Kettle, a private citizen, seeking to meet the committee to discuss the proposed wind energy guidelines and their impact on rural Ireland. I understand a similar request may have been issued to all members of the committee. This relates to the case that went to the Supreme Court. From a legal point of view, this is the seminal case the Supreme Court has made its decisions on and it will effectively set a precedent. My understanding is that the court has referred the decision back to An Coimisiún Pleanála to reconsider its original decision in light of all legislation, not just planning legislation, and it rests there at the moment. It would be beneficial if we met this group. There are several groups, but this group's case has been in the Supreme Court. We would meet it and Wind Energy Ireland. We could bring them in one day next week, with one in for the first session, then the other, because we do not want the to'ing and fro'ing between them at an Oireachtas committee. We need to be in control of the meeting. Can we agree to invite that group in? They are from Laois, so I know them personally, by the way. I had an objection to the project myself - I am declaring that at this stage - but I have no involvement in the court proceedings. It went for High Court judicial review and to the Supreme Court and then was referred back to An Coimisiún Pleanála. Once the Supreme Court has come in, An Coimisiún Pleanála has to re-examine it in light of what the Supreme Court has said. It will be the test case moving forward and a precedent, one way or the other. We will agree to invite both that particular group, including Darragh Kettle and those who will come with him, and Wind Energy Ireland.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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My understanding is that the Supreme Court has given more prominence to the climate action legislation in all these projects, so it is less likely that any of these projects will be refused in the future, because they will be seen to be in sympathy with climate action legislation.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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My understanding of it is that the Supreme Court took the view that the local authority, in the first place, but especially An Coimisiún Pleanála, had not given due weight to the climate action legislation. They looked at it purely from the planning and development point of view and did not give it due weight. I am not saying 50:50, but they did not it due weight, and made a decision from a planning point of view, the Supreme Court said, without taking environmental factors and the climate change legislation into account.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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This is important. It is the same with particular roads. The Galway ring road and even the A5 relate to similar climate action issues.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We provisionally want to earmark that for two weeks from now because next week we will have the briefing by officials on the arterial drainage (amendment) Bill.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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We have no date for Report Stage of the Critical Infrastructure Bill yet.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We do not.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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That will happen in the Chamber anyway.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Committee Stage will go through the Chamber.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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All right.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I am told Committee Stage was here and Report Stage is in the Chamber.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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That is grand.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That has not come up yet. Then it has to go the Seanad.

It would be useful to get an update from the officials directly on the arterial drainage Bill. That will come from the Department of public expenditure and the OPW.

The following week we will have the group Mr. Darragh Kettle is involved in. The secretariat will arrange the number of people. Then we will hear from Wind Energy Ireland. Both groups will be here on the same day but in separate sessions.

No. 27 is an update from the County and City Management Association, CCMA, on local authority development plan variations. The correspondence was received from Peter Burke, of the CCMA regarding further information requested by the committee. It is an update to the committee on local authority development plan variations to facilitate greater zoning for housing, the number of local authorities that have yet to commence public consultation, the number that have completed their reviews and varied their city and county development plans and where the variation process has not yet been completed and which councils have commenced the public display of their proposals. Since we got the original correspondence in April, there has been substantial improvement at local authority level. At our earlier meeting we said we would invite the 13 local authorities that had not yet begun the process. Since we received the original correspondence on 20 April there has been a dramatic improvement by the local authorities so there are only handful now and there might be a logistical reason for those few.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Scrutiny.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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That is why, instead of bringing in the 13 chief executives, we are bringing in the CCMA today as it has a better overall view. Rather than bringing in just the two to kick them around the place, we will hear whether there is a legitimate excuse and we will tease that out. Instead of today's meeting being with the 13 chief executives - ten or 11 of the local authorities have already commenced the process in the last few weeks - it will be with three representatives from the CCMA.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Has the dramatic improvement been helped by scrutiny, do you think?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It did no harm that we highlighted it. I cannot claim credit but it certainly did not do any harm. We will ask them that but I expect that they will tell us "No" and say that they were proceeding in any event. We will let them say that. We will have a more practical and better overall view of where we are in the country in relation to variation plans for housing. We all know that such plans are required.

The next item of correspondence is No. 28, an invitation to the Bord na Móna energy conference on 14 May 2026 in the Tullamore Court Hotel. The correspondence was received from Stephen Nolan of corporate affairs at Bord na Móna. If members choose to attend, there is a link within the documentation to the committee. People are free to attend. It is members' own affair. If people want to attend, they should make their own arrangements.

The next item of correspondence is No. 29, in response to a request for further information from the National Development Finance Agency. This correspondence was received from David Clerkin, deputy director and head of public affairs and communication. It contains the additional information arising from our meeting on 15 April. I recommend that we hold this item over until the next meeting because we have a letter from the National Treasury Management Agency and a lot of supporting documentation that runs to over 100 pages. Some of it is a report that was prepared some time ago. I have not had time to go through that large document so we will hold that over and come back to it next week. Is that okay?

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Yes.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I do not think many of us would have had an opportunity to go through that full document. We can discuss it next week.

The next item is an email about water services in the Sweet Briar housing estate in Tramore. The correspondence was received from Rory O'Shea, a private citizen. Attached are two documents relating to water services in the estate. Members will recall Mr. O'Shea was in contact with the committee previously regarding local water services and is unhappy with Uisce Éireann's response to correcting the ongoing issue raised. Previously it was agreed to refer his correspondence to Uisce Éireann, which we did a couple of months ago, for direct reply as this was a local issue and outside the specific remit of the committee. We do not have regulatory oversight of Uisce Éireann but in view of the fact that the gentlemen has contacted us again we will, if members agree, write to Uisce Éireann directly just for an update. We do not have a regulatory role but it is in the interests of common courtesy so we can close off that correspondence. We are not going to correspond with individuals all over the country because we are a national committee not a local committee. We will ask Uisce Éireann to give us an update and I hope it can show it has dealt with the matter in the meantime. Okay, so that is agreed.

I want to make a suggestion. I want to move on briefly to the next couple of meetings and get agreement on something, though we have agreed some of it already. We will deal with the arterial drainage (amendment) Bill with officials from the Department of public expenditure and the OPW next week. I think we agreed that a few minutes ago.

For the next meeting we agreed we would meet Wind Energy Ireland and a representative of the group in respect of the case in County Laois that brought the issue to the Supreme Court.

Following that, we asked members of the committee for suggestions a while ago and I think one was social and community infrastructure. It was proposed we invite bodies such as the GAA, which did a big report on that in very recent times. There was mention also of the National Youth Council of Ireland to discuss investment in youth facilities.

The Minister, Deputy Browne, has agreed to attend but is not available at the moment. That is a long-standing invitation and we will come back to it.

The Northern Ireland Assembly Committee for Infrastructure has written to us and made an initial approach to us to assess interest and availability, which was positive. It might be no harm to meet the committee, which is a sister committee of ours, if you like.

On the national development plan review, the national development plan was only approved last July so it has not been in place for a year yet. I suggest that as soon as practical after it has been a year we invite the Minister in. That will be one of our early meetings in September. We will try to agree the ones we have mentioned. Senator Crowe is indicating he wishes to speak when we discuss that. That is being noted.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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I would like to go on the list as well. I have a question on this. There is controversy brewing at the moment with Dublin City Council. It is looking to leave its location at Wood Quay in the centre of Dublin and go to another building, which is going to cost €650 million. The reason it wishes to go, it says, is that the existing building needs to be retrofitted to achieve a certain climate standard in the context of the Government's plans. The council has indicated it will cost €400 million to retrofit that building. I am scratching my head about that, as are a lot of people. The council is looking to demolish a perfectly functional building that is fine operationally because of the responsibility of Dublin City Council to adhere to climate change guidelines. A cost of €400 million seems phenomenal.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The spending of €650 million on the new building also seems incredible. Is there any way this committee can tease that out to establish why it would cost €400 million to retrofit that building and whether every State building is now going to be held to a certain standard such that hundreds of millions of euro will have to be spent to retrofit them or to demolish and replace them? This is potentially a very serious issue for the country. It is infrastructure and the building of new infrastructure. How do we deal with that?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The answer is that I have not thought about that but we are all conscious of the issue the Deputy has just raised. I do not know if any other line committee is examining this matter directly. The council is talking about using the site for housing. I do not know if that committee has examined it. The local authorities operate fairly independently of the Government and it is not something that we want to wait for the Comptroller and Auditor General to issue a report on in seven years.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Yes, like another children's hospital.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The local authorities are also not answerable to the Committee of Public Accounts.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Are they not?

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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No.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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The difficulty here is that if the council is saying it is achieving a Government-set standard and it is going to cost €400 million to retrofit that building to do it, and that standard is-----

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I know. Everyone is-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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------for every other State building, we are, therefore, potentially looking at significant costs. If that €400 million was spent on retrofitting homes across the country, it would have an enormous impact and probably achieve the same climate objectives while reducing families' expenditure. Can the committee see if it has a role in checking that infrastructural issue?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Without making a decision on it today, we will ask the officials to research this question to see if the matter can come in under our terms of reference.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Okay.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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If we were to go down that road, we would probably start with correspondence, maybe with the line Department responsible for local government or perhaps directly with the city council. I am just not sure yet.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Could we send a letter to the city council asking it to detail its estimate for the €400 million retrofit? Can we ask it what exactly that €400 million is going to be spent on? It is an eye-watering amount.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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That is a figure being thrown around, and right now, it is very secret as to what that €400 million would be used for if the council was going to retrofit its building.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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I thought it was talking about moving to a new site.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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It is. The council is saying it is moving to the other site because it would cost €400 million to retrofit its current building. The new site is a €636 million project.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it is a €1 billion project.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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It would be good if we could even send a letter to ask Dublin City Council to detail the estimate in terms of the retrofitting of that building so we can understand where the €400 million would be spent if the council were to undertake that project. This would test to see how real that €400 million figure is, rather than just having a figure thrown around as an excuse to purchase a new building for €650 million.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The building will then probably be demolished and new houses built, and that will cost another-----

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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I would not mind, but because it is on Wood Quay, even building the current structure 40 years ago entailed a particular crisis in heritage preservation as well.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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It was a traumatic event.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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Can we send a letter?

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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Will we agree to write to Dublin City Council?

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I agree with that. There is also the question of who is making the decision and on what basis.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The council must have a good rates roll.

Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I do not mind saying this. I would hate to think there could be a situation where someone might retire in two years and then somebody else might have a different view. That is what I often wonder about.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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It has actually been reported that €10 million is going to be spent on refurbishing the building that is going to be demolished in 2029.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will write directly to the council, see what the response is and then see what avenues are available to this committee. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Looking back at our schedule, we have agreed that we will discuss arterial drainage next week with the Department of public expenditure and the Office of Public Works, OPW. I already mentioned our meeting after that, which is with Wind Energy Ireland. There is also the letter from Darragh Kettle in relation to that case. We then spoke about the community and social infrastructure. We will invite a body such as the GAA in, which seems to have done a recent report on this issue in terms of population and its facilities. We then spoke about meeting the Northern Ireland Assembly infrastructure committee. We will try to do that before the summer. When are elections due up there? Is it next year?

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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It is in 2027.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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We will invite those representatives in sooner because they will be getting into election mode at the back end of the year.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Aontú)
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They will.

Seán Fleming (Laois, Fianna Fail)
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The National Youth Council of Ireland is on our list for a future date. We will wait to discuss the review of the national development plan until September because it is not there a year yet. The Minister, Deputy James Browne, is certainly on the list, but there is no date yet. I think that is the majority of it.

We are now in a position to meet with representatives of the County and City Management Association, CCMA. We will suspend briefly while the witnesses take their seats.