Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Ward and Senator Bradley.

The agenda item for consideration this morning is a discussion on technology, social media and children, with a particular focus on the safety and well-being of children online. This is a resumption of this topic. We have been talking about it for a number of sessions.

This morning we are joined by Shineka Scanlon and John Brennan, project manager, from Sligo Springboard Family Support Service; Charlie Grant, Luke McCluskey and Aaron Fowler, youth officer, from Louth Meath Education and Training Board; Katelyn Warren, Noah O'Shea and Anthony O'Connor, training officer, from Foróige Connect Safely training, learning and development team; and Amber Mooney, Miah Morris and Siobhán O'Dwyer, CEO, from Youth Advocates Programme Ireland. They are very welcome to the meeting.

As I said, this morning we are going to be talking about technology, social media and children, and especially focusing on the safety and well-being of children online. We have one more meeting on this topic and then we will be putting together our report. We will have a very busy secretariat putting together all of the notes taken so far. It is, for me as Chair, and for the members, a real honour to have children and young people with us today. It is the second meeting with children and young people and it is really important they get to have a say on policy, legislation and decisions that might be taken which affect them.

I assure all present that members of the committee take very seriously the provisions under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, Article 12, that they have their say and are heard in relation to their rights. Members of the committee also recognise the valuable perspective young people can bring to the committee discussion on policy and legislative matters under its consideration.

While we have a small number of individuals presenting to the committee this morning, I acknowledge the collective work of all the members of the organisations in putting together the opening statements and contributions today. Our witnesses are the spokespersons for their groups and we have a full Gallery today. They are all exceptionally welcome. As I said, this is the second of our meetings with children and young people and they might be some of our most important.

Before we begin, there are a few housekeeping matters I am obliged to go through. We do not have anybody on MS Teams. In relation to parliamentary privilege, our witnesses and members are all protected by absolute privilege in respect of a presentation they make to the committee. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Witnesses will be allocated three minutes' speaking time to deliver their opening statements. I will call them in the following order: Shineka, Charlie, Katelyn, Noah, Amber and Miah. After that we will have a questions and answers session with our members. I call Ms Scanlon to deliver her opening statement.

Ms Shineka Scanlon:

I thank members for letting us be here today. This session is about hearing from young people, which really matters to us. Over the past few weeks, we have been talking to young people in Louth, Meath and Sligo. We had workshops, group chats and questionnaires so people could share their thoughts in their own words and talk about their real experiences. This builds on the peer education film project where young people made short films about things which affect them such as social media, online safety, and life online. We also spoke to different age groups.

One thing we noticed is that how we use technology changes as we get older. Younger children are more focused on gaming and are quite aware of staying safe online.

As we get older, we use social media and messaging apps more, and we are on our phones a lot more, often earlier than we think. The main thing we heard is that young people want to be listened to. We also think it really helps when young people learn from each other because we know what it is actually like. Today is about sharing those voices.

First, the committee will hear from our group about what we found and then they will hear from the next group who will talk about their film. I thank members for listening and I will outline our findings now. We surveyed 31 children between five and 13 years of age. All 31 children have access to their own devices - either phones, tablets or laptops. Some children had two or three of these items. The length of time spent on devices varied depending on the age groups surveyed. The five- to seven-year-old age group spent from under an hour to a couple of hours a day. The majority of the eight- to 13-year-old age group spent three to four hours a day on their devices, but a number of children in this age group said they spent over four hours a day. When asked if there were any rules in place at home around the use of devices, 14 out of 19 of the eight- to 13-year-olds said "No", four said "Yes" and one said "Kinda". There were more rules in place when it came to the five- to seven-year-old group. We asked, "Should little children use social media?" The majority of five- to seven-year-olds said "No", with one saying “Too young" and another saying “It’s not safe”. We asked the eight- to 13-year-old group what problems or risks come from social media. Responses included “stranger danger”, “in case you talk to someone who is older than you”, “bullying” and "sleep routine”. The group said some of the benefits of using social media include "make new friends”, "playing with friends”, “to learn and have fun”,”makes you closer to people” and “you learn stuff”. The apps and websites children mentioned in the survey that they access mostly have age restrictions of at least 13 years of age, but nearly all the participants can access them. When asked if there should be an age limit for social media, nine of the eight- to 13-year-olds said "Yes", five said "No" and one said "I don't know". These are some of the findings from the children who participated in our questionnaire. I thank the kids who participated and the committee members for listening.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Thanks Shineka and well done. I now invite Charlie to deliver his opening statement.

Mr. Charlie Grant:

In 2025, seven groups of almost 100 young people across Louth and Meath created seven short films exploring lived experiences around mental health, vaping, alcohol and drug use, sexting, social media, and related community challenges such as feuding. The youth-led, professionally facilitated process ensured authenticity and meaningful participation, with two groups choosing to focus specifically on social media and sexting.

A peer-led workshop programme has been developed for each film and will be delivered in schools across the region. Using the films as discussion catalysts, the workshops provide safe, engaging spaces for young people to explore these issues through guided reflection, questions, and activities led by peers. By combining youth-created media with structured peer facilitation, the project aims to amplify young people’s voices, build critical thinking, and empower them to lead conversations on issues that matter to them.

We were one of the first groups selected to choose from the list of subjects. We chose sexting because it was a fairly throwaway topic. Given the opportunity, everyone went for things like alcohol and drug abuse because they are so out there and so known. No one likes to talk about sexting, sex or anything like that. They see it as too awkward to talk about. No one wants to have that conversation, so we felt that we had to shine some light on it because both young people and their parents need to be aware of it. A lot of parents do not realise what their kids are doing online. In a survey of 4,000 kids, one in every eight said a sexual image of them was sent around without their consent, which is far too high, especially given the mental health stress this can cause. It can massively hurt in many ways, not just through their peers' ridicule but also their own self belief. If they do not believe in their body, it creates a bad agenda. I personally know people have had it done to them and it is horrible. Bad mental health is already associated with social media and it is horrible for it to bump up even more. We thought it was a good topic, which was why we chose it.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Thanks Charlie. That is the end of the formal statement. We will get to the more informal conversation later. Now we will move on to Katelyn and Noah.

Ms Katelyn Warren:

On behalf of Foróige, I thank the Chairperson and members of the committee for the opportunity to speak today. I am a member of Foróige’s Connect Safely youth advocacy group. Represented here in the Public Gallery and at home, our group advises Foróige on online safety by drawing on the lived experiences of young people across Ireland.

On behalf of the Department of Education and Youth, Foróige developed a suite of programmes called Connect Safely, one for eight- to 11-year-olds and one for 12- to 18-year-olds. The programmes equip young people with the skills to engage safely with technology and be positive digital citizens. Connect Safely also provides resources and webinars for parents and guardians, helping them navigate the digital world with their children.

Young people face a number of risks online every day, such as cyberbullying, unhealthy digital habits and disinformation. All of these risks are increased through advances in AI and can have a real impact on physical and mental health. We believe that a holistic approach to online safety is needed. Everyone deserves to feel as safe and respected online as they do in person and we also deserve to be able to maximise the benefits of technology and the opportunities it opens up for us.

In my own experience as a young autistic person and an advocate, a huge amount of misinformation and disinformation exists online about autism. I often see claims that autism is caused by vaccines or bad parenting. False information like this is very harmful and hurtful. I will now hand over to my fellow committee member, Noah.

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

Social media is a major part of how young people connect, learn, and express themselves. The focus should be on making these platforms safer and more age appropriate. Young people want to be included in shaping these spaces for the better, not excluded from them. Social media companies need more effective measures to keep young people safe on their platforms, leading with a safety-by-design approach and preventing harm in the way that their platform is built. Social media companies should be required to use robust verification. Reporting and blocking alone are not enough. Platforms need better moderation and genuine accountability to prevent harm before it escalates. We need clear reporting pathways to platforms and to An Garda Síochána, with real consequences for offenders to prevent reoccurrences.

Youth work organisations play a vital role in supporting young people to navigate their path through life safely and confidently. They provide trusted spaces where young people can talk openly about their digital experiences, learn practical skills, and build awareness about issues like privacy, cyberbullying and online well-being, as well as promoting advanced digital skills. The role of youth work organisations should be recognised as part of a wider effort, alongside schools, families, Government and tech companies, to create a safer digital environment for young people.

The Foróige Connect Safely youth advocacy group urges the committee to prioritise making our digital spaces safe and inclusive. These environments are essential for connection, learning and creativity. Young people have the right to such spaces. The time to take action and hold social media and tech companies to account is now. I thank members for their time today.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Go raibh maith agaibh, Katelyn and Noah. Now we move on to Miah and Amber.

Ms Miah Morris:

First, I will provide some information about YAP Ireland. Youth Advocate Programmes Ireland is a registered charity providing a range of services across 25 counties to children, young people and families who need support. Many young people are referred by Tusla, the Child and Family Agency or by the HSE. The YAP model is a strength-based, family-focused wraparound service that achieves positive outcomes.

The model is unique in Ireland as we employ community-based advocates to work directly with children, young people and families where they live and support them to achieve their goals. In 2025, we worked with more than 600 young people and families. Members can see our website for further information and stories from young people and families.

We spoke to young people across YAP Ireland to get their views on the impact of social media and possible solutions. I will start with the positive aspects. Technology is a big part of our daily lives. We use it for school, to stay in touch with friends and for entertainment. Having social media makes it easier to keep in touch with friends, especially outside school, and can help young people feel included and less alone. Social media platforms like TikTok or Instagram let them express their personality through photos, videos, outfits or art and can boost confidence when people like what they share. We can pick up useful stuff like study tips, life advice and awareness about things like mental health or other world issues. Social media help us to connect, learn new things and express ourselves. It can be fun watching funny videos, dances or creative clips.

While social media can be fun and useful, it also comes with some challenges for children and young people. Spending too much time on screens, it is easy to lose track of time scrolling on apps like TikTok or Snapchat and this can take away from sleep, homework or time spent with friends and family in the real world. There is cyberbullying. Sometimes people say things online they would not say in person. This can make young people feel upset, sad and excluded. It can affect their confidence, well-being and mental health. People might share too much information. Children and young people might not always realise how much personal information they are sharing and this can lead to safety risks and being contacted by people who are not who they say they are. Social media can make people want things or experiences they cannot afford. This can lead to feeling jealous and left out.

I will now hand over to Amber.

Ms Amber Mooney:

I will talk about solutions, what young people can do. They can keep their accounts on private and set up filters to block words that are hurtful to them. They can block people who are mean and unfriend them. They can think about what they are posting and not share personal information outside close friend groups and family groups. They can set limits on screen-time for themselves, make sure they take breaks and not spend too much time scrolling. They can buy an alarm clock so they do not have their phones in their bedrooms at night.

What can parents do? They can set up parental controls straight away when a young person gets a phone and talk to young people about the positive aspects of social media as well as the negative ones. Young people have grown up with access to social media so parents can help them to make sure they are using it safely and if there are any issues they can talk to their parents.

Turning to education in schools, social media tips training for all children aged over ten in primary schools should not just be about the negative aspects; it should include how to use privacy settings, block people and so on. Tips training should change with the age of young people with different issues dealt with for those over 13 or 16. Schools could offer social media tips training also for parents. Parents could be invited in in the evenings to support them to understand how parental controls work, how to set accounts to private, how to talk about social media to young people and how to report to companies or An Garda Síochána, if needed.

What can social media companies and TDs do? They should take young people seriously. If young people report an issue, they should block the person or take down posts immediately. Often, they do not agree that the posts or comments are hurtful but they are. They must listen to young people when they report and take action. When social media companies are found to be acting against the law or regulations, they should be subject to much bigger fines. They make a lot of money and so fines should be really big or they will not take them seriously. They could build social media channels just for children under-16, like TV channels, which should have no adverts on them. They could change the algorithms that send posts and adverts constantly. If people click on something, they get sent lots of similar posts and adverts for days and must block them, or they must not click. Social media companies could stop the system doing that. Phone companies could make phones for under-13s that are preset not to have social media access. For 13- to 16-year-olds, phones could have social media apps that are all preset to private or to children-only channels.

For TDs and the Dáil, if young people had to prove their age using photo ID to open or access social media channels, it could be a good idea but some young people will not have a photo ID or find it easy to get it. How will they be supported if they cannot? It will increase the digital divide between richer and poorer families. Can social media companies be trusted with this data? What if they are hacked or use the information in a bad way? How will children and young people be protected?

I thank the committee for listening to us. We hope members take our views seriously when they make decisions in the future about legislation and regulations to support and protect children and young people online.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The tips the witnesses gave for young people are good for all of us. I have an alarm clock in the place where I stay in Mayo but in Dublin, I could definitely find myself trying to slow down so we will all take those tips on board. I thank the witnesses for their statements.

One thing that came up in our discussions with young people last week was that they wanted to be sure having young people before the committee was not just a token gesture. I will tell today's witnesses what I told them. They are being treated in the same way as all the witnesses we have heard on this subject and everything they say today will be put into a report created by our secretariat. Members will then have an opportunity to amend it. Recommendations will be sent to the Government and we will try to hold it accountable for the recommendations we suggest. Absolutely everything the witnesses suggest today will be taken on board and it will not just be a token gesture.

It is proposed to publish the opening statements on the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before I call members, I remind them they will be allocated seven minutes each. Speaking time in this allocation must include responses from the witnesses. I will be a bit stricter in the next section. The witnesses will see the clock is now red. I will ding the glass to make sure we move through everyone and everyone gets a chance.

When members put their questions, I ask them to strictly adhere to the agenda topic under consideration at the meeting and direct their questions to the witnesses they would like to respond. No one is on MS Teams today. We have a speaking rota and the first four members are Deputies Kerrane, Dempsey and Ó Murchú and Senator Keogan. That could change if other members come back from other committee meetings.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming. It is not always easy. It may be the first experience of doing something like this for some of them so I hope they are all proud of themselves. Well done.

I do not necessarily want to put anyone on the spot. Is any of the young people present willing to speak about their experience online and that of their peers and friends? Is their personal experience and that of people they know positive? Have they had any poor experiences online? How do they feel about it personally in terms of their pages on social media networks?

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If anyone wants to speak, they can put their hand up and Deputy Kerrane will call them.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, Luke

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

Social media have played a large role in my life, including my social life. I did not have any until second year in secondary school. Before that, I relied purely on WhatsApp and I talked to my family through that, but I did not talk to my friends because we do not share phone numbers; everyone uses social media. We are reliant on them completely. I downloaded apps in second year because I was tired of that and felt I would not grow socially. I downloaded Snapchat. It turned out to be a great thing for me to do. I made friends through that. They are friends I have today who I would not have if it were not for social media.

However, there is a large negative side. Any time I use social media, I always think about what I am sending to other people and I try to be responsible, but there are people who do not care. There are people who will cut you dry and they are not held responsible for their actions in any way. There is not enough legislation about who can use social media. Adults can talk to children. I have not had that experience, thankfully, but I have experienced small bits of bullying. I will be added to a group chat and things will be said, but I will leave it. That does not get to me personally but there are people who might struggle. They might get caught in a web of bullying and not be able to escape it. Therefore, we need social media to be held accountable for how they facilitate that. At the moment, it is not acceptable and it can lead to things like self-harming and, in the worst case, suicide. We cannot look at that retrospectively. We cannot allow it to happen. We need legislation to stop it pre-emptively before anything happens.

Ms Katelyn Warren:

Social media have been prevalent in my life, especially in the past year. As I mentioned in my opening statement, I am an autism advocate and a young person who is autistic. Social media have been helpful tools for promoting autism awareness and support, especially using my Spotify podcast "The Neurodivergent Navigator Podcast". In addition, social media can be used to clear up misinformation and disinformation, which, as I also mentioned in my opening statement, can be prevalent in autism and neurodivergent communities in general, and even other communities. To this day, I still see claims like the one I mentioned that autism is caused by bad parenting or vaccines or that everyone is a little autistic and so on. In general, having social media to clear up those misconceptions, rumours and things like that is helpful. People have used social media to reach out to me to tell me my podcast is helping.

That helped me to promote it more.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Well done, Katelyn, that is great. As the witnesses know, we have had a number of hearings to date. Sometimes we get a mix of views, including that parents and schools need to do more and the need for more education at school level. Of course, the platforms have to do an awful lot more. Do any of the witnesses share any experience day-to-day in schools? Is there much discussion on a daily basis about online safety and well-being online? Does that come into the curriculum in any subjects?

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

We have digital media literacy in my school. From first year we are told how to send emails, as well as the dangers of being online. As the Deputy mentioned, it is a responsibility for social media platforms. As I said in my opening statement, there is a need for security measures to be built into apps from the start to avoid difficulties because things can get very dangerous for young people. There is peer pressure in school that follows them home through social media. Tackling those issues could be dealt with in school, along with providing further education.

Mr. Charlie Grant:

In my school, we are not allowed to use phones on campus. There are online safety weeks for young people. It is a topic in SPHE, and includes bullying and cyberbullying. At times, it feels quite throwaway and that the teacher is following the curriculum and is doing what they are being told to do but that is it and is as far as it goes. My school is an iPad school, which means there is an extra bit of back and forth with people on email and so on. It is a way of getting around not having phones. It works quite well for education. Talking about it feels very throwaway. There is a lot of support when people are struggling, but as far as the curriculum and teachers teaching, I do not feel that they are up to the challenge.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being here today. As Deputy Kerrane said, they should be very proud of themselves in terms of how they have conducted themselves and spoken so confidently and clearly to us today. I would like to start with Charlie who spoke passionately about his video in his opening statement. I ask him to give us a bit more information on that.

Mr. Charlie Grant:

As I said, in picking it we wanted to go for sexting because we felt everything else had been touched on. In the recording process-----

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I would like to interrupt for a second but I will allow you to continue. You need to bear in mind that if we go into sex too much, there are minors in the room. I ask you to keep it at a high level and you will be good.

Mr. Charlie Grant:

The script came back to us. What was good was the producer asked us a lot for our opinion because there are text messages sent in the movie. A lot of the slang and terms used are not what we would use. We needed the language to be in line with what was going on in real life. If someone is watching it and terms are used that are no longer used and so on, the message will not stick with people. We wanted the message to stick and we would like to think we got that message through. It was a touchy topic because there are a lot of guidelines. It struggled because it is such a touchy topic and we do not know who is going to be watching it but we felt it was important and that we hit the mark that we were looking for.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Fair play to you. You mentioned that one in eight had images of themselves shared. What age was that cohort?

Mr. Charlie Grant:

That was a study done in Dublin of, I believe, 15- and 16-year-olds. About 4,000 were surveyed and one in eight said they had had an image of them shared.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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That is shocking. In all of the conversations we have had, I always find it surprising when young people say that they want their parents to know what they are doing. That is alien to me. When I was young person, I could not get away from my parents enough. It shows how scary this area is, and how fast and big it is, that teenagers are seeking help, which is fantastic. I was shocked by the data that showed five- to seven-year-olds have their own devices. My kids are in that age bracket and have access to devices. It is not a judgment thing, but I do not agree with an all-out ban on any of this and I do not think the witnesses do, nor does anyone who has come before the committee. Do the witnesses believe an all-out ban on those aged five to seven having their own devices is the right thing to do?

Ms Katelyn Warren:

I do not agree that there should be an outright ban. My group agreed that an outright ban would be too strong a measure and young people would want to get back on social media if it was suddenly taken away from them. The companies associated with social media and people bringing ideas into them should focus on making platforms progressively safer for young people to use. That would be the most effective measure because social media is positive for young people. As I mentioned, I am able to promote my message of autism awareness and support mainly through the use of social media. It is effective and I do not think an outright ban to just take it away would be the most effective measure to make platforms safer.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you.

Mr. Charlie Grant:

An outright ban would not be right for everyone, but would be right for younger age group, such as six- and seven-year-olds, as the Deputy said. I am not sure about all social media platforms, but the minimum age to use social media platforms is 13 and that should be the marker. Kids under the age of 13 should not be on any social media platform, besides something like WhatsApp so they can communicate with parents or family members. Children need to go outside. I do not have the statistics, but I know from having a younger sister that they go out a lot less. I am only five years older than her but the difference in how much I went out compared to her due to social media is significant. Social media can make a big difference. There should be some kind of legislation to restrict the use of social media for younger kids.

Mr. John Brennan:

Everybody was shocked when they read our study which found that all 31 children had access to social media and had their own phone, tablet, phone or laptop, or sometimes all three. It was a small survey but it was interesting to note that a majority of five- to seven-year-olds thought it was not right for them to be on social media. The babies in the group do not want to be on social media. That is a lesson for us as parents to be proactive around policing this because if a six-year-old has access to social media but says they do not want to be on a platform, there must be conversations at that level. If children are speaking at that level, we as parents and society need to take that seriously. The eight- to 13-year-olds were very clear about younger children not having access to social media. They did not want young people near it. Having had two or three years of access to such platforms, they were clear that they did not want their younger brothers or sisters to use them.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As has been said, the witnesses have been very eloquent. I will probably not be, so I ask them to forgive me.

I will start with Luke. He said that he did not go on social media until second year, but he felt he was losing out on something. He then found it to be positive. Will he go through some of the examples of being added to a group whereby he then got bullied? He developed a fair amount of resilience and an element of critical analysis, which not everyone will have. How did he attain that? I ask him to work through the example.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

It was pretty much all on Snapchat. I do not use any other social media. I have a TikTok account on an iPad to ensure that I cannot use it throughout my daily life because it takes up too much time.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Do you use it for scrolling?

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

I will do half an hour and then I will put it down because I realise, I have used it too much.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is more disciplined than me.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

I went throughout first year and did not use social media. I did feel like I was missing out because I did not talk to the people in my class outside of class. They had a class group chat. I did not know about it because I was not on Snapchat. I did live a bit of an oblivious life when it came to that socially. I relied a lot on family. No one ever approached me or asked me to download it. I had people say, "Oh, you don't have it?", because it is the societal norm that everyone will have social media, but I do not, and I did not. It just kept growing on me. I knew if I did not get it that I would miss out too much. I felt a lot of pressure. Once I downloaded it, it was good for the first while. There would always be people who would be mean to me online, but I would just un-add them and get rid of them.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Were they people that you knew?

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

Yes. They would be people that I know, but not very well. I will use a key example. There was a big bunch of girls - not the nicest of folks - who saw me as a bit of a joke. I was probably an inside joke in their friend group. They would mock me. It was probably behind my back more than I knew. They would add me into random group chats. They would say something stupid. It would just make me a joke. I knew it. I would open a message and play back and forth, then I would leave, and they would add me back in. I had it easy because I would see it as a light-hearted kind of thing. They were not too mean to me, thankfully, but it did get to me. It would stay in the back of my head for a long time.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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This is something that is happening across the board.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

Absolutely.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In an awful lot of times, it is going to be a lot more nefarious than that.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

As I said, I had it really light. I can only imagine if it was a group of more mean people - for lighter words - that I could have ended up in a rough spot mentally. I had long hair for years.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is still not short.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

The abuse that I would go through for having long hair. Again, I was getting called a girl and gay. There was a lot of homophobia as well. I am not even gay. It was ruthless. Imagine if I was in the closet and that was happening, it could be detrimental to your well-being.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is 100%. The toxicity has got a lot worse. It was summed up earlier that we cannot trust social media companies. They need to be held to account through rules, regulations and big fines. Nothing else is going to make a difference to them. They make money by keeping a person online. They do not care how they do it.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

Throughout my entire time using Snapchat, I have never had anyone stop me and ask why I use the app and what I am using it for. Snapchat does not care. Every few months, the terms and conditions might show up because the EU is making it change its law because it is trying to do a money grab all the time. I will just press the button to say okay, and it is gone. There is no one stopping me going online and doing anything horrible.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is no element of policing in relation to this.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

Zero.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As Luke said, if he was not on this, he would not have the communication links. He might not even have the same relationship with his friends. That is the positive benefit of it.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

It makes you reliant on it. Once everyone gets reliant on it, they cannot leave otherwise they will miss out.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We talked about the toxicity. Katelyn spoke about the misinformation and disinformation that people get online. It is about how people have gained the critical analysis to know that this a nonsense even though they have seen this six times, in some cases, from six different idiots. Advertising works. I am interested in how people have developed their own critical analysis and ability to say that this is a nonsense or something that they need check out because they cannot just believe it first time.

Ms Katelyn Warren:

There is generally a lot of misinformation about autism. In my experience on my podcast - I have ten episodes currently - on one of them, I talked about different types of misinformation, for example, phrases that people should not use and outdated terms and symbols and why they should not be used. For example, we should not say Asperger's any more because even to this day some people still say it. I have heard people still say it. They say it without knowing the origin behind it. The origin being that Asperger's is no longer used because around 2010 it was discovered that the guy that Asperger's was named after, Hans Asperger, an Austrian physician who did case studies on autism, was complicit with the Nazi regime and was committed in the child euthanasia programme in Am Spiegelgrund clinic in Austria where 800 children died from 1940 to 1945. A lot of people still do not know that information and that we should not use certain terms and symbols. It is prevalent online to try to get that misinformation erased.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Katelyn uses her podcast to combat this. That is brilliant. That is a very good reason that I am sure a lot of people around here did not know either in relation to Asperger's. My time is up. I will be back.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I apologise for jumping in and out. I thank everyone for being here. It is a real privilege to have the witnesses share their experiences. We are very much the lucky ones to hear from them. Certainly, from our perspective, we fully intend to bring those with us on this journey of policy development. I wish to get a quick idea from everyone with a "Yes" or "No" answer, although it might not be as simple as a "Yes" or "No". We have seen in the past couple of days that Norway now intends to bring in a social media ban. It is rumoured in Ireland. What are the witnesses' thoughts? Is a social media ban for under 16s the right approach in Ireland?

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

To cut it short, it is not the right decision. It is like someone telling their child that they cannot have any sweets - it just makes them want the sweets even more. By making it a ban, we are then making social media not have to care about young people on the platform. If they do, it turns into a kind of black market that they go on the platform. It is not safe for them. It is even more harmful. There are all the positives of social media from connectivity, educating, developing, gaining a sense of responsibility through social media, such as things as simple as WhatsApp and Snapchat. In my personal experience, my sister organises to meet up with her friends on the weekends and stuff. That develops a sense of responsibility that she can establish as she is growing up. Without that, we would take away a platform for young people to develop into young adults.

Mr. Charlie Grant:

I would say "Yes", so long as things like iMessage and that are still around. As Noah noted, that is one of the main points of communication between friends and loved ones. As long as that is not broken, absolutely. It is a waste of time. I can understand the likes of YouTube, which I know is social media, but it is not as bad as the likes of TikTok because we could waste hours on TikTok. The other day I was waiting to do my homework, and I decided that I would sit down and watch one or two TikToks. Two hours passed and I was wondering where the time went. By then, I had to get ready for training. I was thinking about how I would have to get home and shower after. I was late getting to bed because I had to sit up to do my homework because I wasted all that time on TikTok.

That is what people miss out on - that time. It is not even just timekeeping for homework but also going outside and seeing friends in person. You give that up by spending so much time on social media. "Yes" would be my answer.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Does anybody else wish to respond?

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

If you look at the App Store on Apple, it says 13 plus for most social media. That is not followed in any way. I would have no problem with that age bracket and below being completely banned from social media because, primarily, they do not need it. In sixth class, I was not gallivanting around town, running around when my parents did not know where I was. I was at home reading a book; I knew I was safe. You do not need Instagram in a 12-year-old's life. You do not need Snapchat in it. Basic communication, like Charlie said, is what is actually needed. All this add-on stuff on social media is dangerous for that age group, so for that age and down, I would say no.

However, it is far more difficult to strip away social media for teenagers because it is a big part of their life and we will find workarounds - we will 100% find them. Australia brought in that social media ban and overnight, there were videos of people using photos and holding them up to the screen to get into social media. Everyone will find a workaround, but if you have blanket legislation to slowly dwindle that reliance on social media, in ten years we will not have this problem because social media will not be the norm any more. It needs to be phased out.

Mr. Aaron Fowler:

I am not a young person.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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You fooled me, Aaron.

Mr. Aaron Fowler:

However, out of everything we have heard here today, we can say that this is a really complex issue. It is very layered and the opinions you are going to hear probably vary greatly, depending on the age of the young person the question is directed at.

The other thing you can hear clearly from listening to the young people is that they are quite good at developing their own sense of right or wrong around these issues, if they are given that space to do so. That is one of the reasons we chose a peer education project to do this. We believe young people have the capacity to lead each other and talk to each other about these subjects. That is a very important space because we have got to bring young people along with us as adults whenever we make decisions that impact upon them.

It is amazing to hear the things young people have said here today. It is quite refreshing to hear that young people are beginning to challenge some of these norms themselves that have become accepted among their peers. We have to support that, whether that is in youth services, schools or other forums. We have to support young people and give them the opportunity to discuss these issues themselves.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Everyone is very welcome. I have to give a full disclosure. I am a board member of Sligo Springboard, so I am delighted they are here. Shineka is the youngest person here, so well done to her. Jenna and Jack are here in the Public Gallery. They are all very welcome and it is great to hear their voices.

The issue is very complex. We have had different groups come in, but it is so important to hear the witnesses' voices on this and how there are loads of benefits to having social media. However, what do we consider social media to be? Is YouTube considered social media, or is Snapchat or Roblox? I will ask Shineka about her study. She said younger people used gaming a lot. What kind of apps were they using? Was it even apps, or was it all apps? What were the things younger people, the small ones, were using?

Ms Shineka Scanlon:

It was mostly Roblox.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Was that the five- to seven-year-olds? Are they the same group that said they wished they did not have any access to any tablet themselves?

Ms Shineka Scanlon:

Yes.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Were they not using them on their parents' phones?

Mr. John Brennan:

To add to that, Roblox was extremely popular with the younger age, and then it kind of phased out as they got older - aged eight, nine or ten - when they moved into Snapchat, TikTok and that side of things. Roblox is extremely popular, and the amount of hits and people who use Roblox is hundreds of thousands.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Are there any age restrictions on Roblox?

Mr. John Brennan:

Yes, there are. It is set at five to eight, or eight to 12, and then 13 plus. Part of the survey we did showed that even with the restrictive age of 13, everybody we spoke to in our little survey of 31 could access it, which was the worry. Roblox can be very child friendly, and many companies are tightening their security around that with AI, which is only too pleasing to everybody. However, the reality is, at present, all our kids we surveyed could access what they wanted.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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What about different age groups? What about YouTube junior or YouTube Kids, if that is what it is called? Do you need an age restriction to get into that?

Mr. John Brennan:

I think there is a recommendation.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Okay, but there is no verification.

Mr. John Brennan:

Across the line, that is the word they use. It is "recommended" 13 years of age.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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I thank John for that. Does Charlie want to comment?

Mr. Charlie Grant:

On YouTube, if videos get age restricted, depending on the situation, they can require ID verification on the account. However, if a video is not age restricted, it will not. YouTube has been cracking down a lot more recently, so it takes a lot less now.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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If the videos are not appropriate, are they taken down?

Mr. Charlie Grant:

No, they are not taken down. They are left up, but the account watching them has to be verified as over a certain age.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Is it easy to get around that age verification?

Mr. Charlie Grant:

I do not personally know. I do not think so, I have never tried but I have not heard a lot online. I would not know a lot about that.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

I remember when I was little, I came across an age-restricted video but I got my dad's login just like that. I was watching that video two minutes later; it was that easy. You just need any account.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Is that the same with everything? What would be the social media the witnesses use? Luke said he had not used social media for a long time, but is he on TikTok now and Instagram?

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

I have a TikTok and an Instagram account. Both accounts are on that iPad I mentioned because I do not want to have them on my phone. I would then have it in my hand too easily. The only thing I have on that is Snapchat and YouTube. However, whether YouTube is social media or not is a bit iffy.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Exactly.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

I do not think we have a clear definition of what it is and there is no real regulatory body around what social media is. It comes down to the judgment of parents and what they want their kids to have access to. Many of them do not care because they do not know what is on them. It is hard to tell. There is a lot of great stuff on YouTube, such as educational videos and tutorials. I learned how to tie a tie yesterday on YouTube.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

A Windsor knot.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Shineka also said in her study that most people got around the age restriction.

Ms Shineka Scanlon:

Yes.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Were they asked that directly when doing the questionnaires?

Mr. John Brennan:

It was an anonymous survey, so it was quite tight in that being anonymous. When we were going through the results, the main theme was, "We will get there. We can use it. It does not matter." If their mum or dad has put a parental control on their phone, Johnny is only living two doors down and he can access it anyway.

That is the gig. Going back to the Senator's point, if it was banned completely, it would be 24 hours that someone has got in there. That does not take away from the real importance of these huge companies taking this a lot more seriously.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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That is 100% the case, and also accountability.

Mr. John Brennan:

That is the gig, I think.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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The big companies would hate a ban because they make so much money out of it, and control as well. I thank Mr. Brennan.

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

To add to that, it is now very common to have YouTube access on televisions. In that case, it is not the child's login because it is permanently logged in to the adult account on the TV. Young children are well able to access a TV. They come in, their parents might be making the dinner and they can put on any video. There are obviously age restrictions with "18" but there is still content for between five and 18 that is not suitable for a five-year-old if they are watching content for 16-year-olds that they would have access to.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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That again goes back to YouTube's responsibility.

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

It is a case of having more built-in safety measures and reviewing videos quicker, if possible, and more thoroughly.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Shineka or Miah referred to having a phone that is used for primary school. Was it one of them who talked about having a phone for primary school use? There is an initiative in Sligo. I do not know if Shineka knows about it yet. It is trying to delay the use of smartphones across the county until children get into first year. It is only starting now but it is trying to get all the schools to sign up to it. There might be an option there, if parents need to contact children, to have a phone that is specific to a certain age group and that does not have social media apps.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I thank all our guests for coming in today. It is always great to hear from young children and teenagers about their experiences online. I found Shineka's presentation quite shocking. To think that children as young as five, six and seven were spending an hour or a couple of hours online is even more shocking than hearing that 18- to 30-year-olds are spending three to four hours or sometimes over four hours online. If you add that into the iPad education system, where students are probably online for six hours of the day, it is quite shocking.

There has been a lot of talk today about the providers, whether Facebook, Snapchat, TikTok or YouTube, and company responsibility. What about parental responsibility? Do parents need to step up in relation to what children are seeing online? Do parents need to have a little bit more control in relation to their children's devices? What do the witnesses feel about parental responsibility and how parents need to step up in regard to what their children are seeing online?

Ms Shineka Scanlon:

I think parents should go through their kids' phones every once in a while - their history and all that.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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What about you, Luke?

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

If my parents went through my phone tomorrow, I would be worried.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Of course, you would be worried but with regard to the amount of time you are spending on social media, when you wake up first thing in the morning, you probably look at your phone.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

I average around three hours a day on my phone. An hour of that would be Spotify and then for the other two hours, I would use Snapchat.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Is that representative of all children or teenagers your age?

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

No. My parents took quite a stand against me having a phone early on, which seems to be something that is becoming more rare by the day. I am incredibly fortunate in that respect but I know there are some people who will wake up, roll over and go on to TikTok. Hours would be consumed.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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What would Charlie say about parental responsibility and time online for children?

Mr. Charlie Grant:

I think parents should have trust in their children. I do not agree with going through their phone. It is your own private space. That obviously depends on age, so if the child is really young, parents probably should but at a certain age, parents have to trust their child and hope they have instilled the right qualities in them not to do the wrong thing. If a parent thinks the child is struggling in school, they can have a conversation with the child. If they do not feel the child is opening up, they can ask to see their phone. It may be different if parents let their children be on the same page. They should not just take the phone and say, "I am going through it now, this is happening and you have to put up with it". They should give children the choice to open up and show them what is going on.

Ms Miah Morris:

I think parents should have parental controls on their children's phones. They should talk to the children about the negatives of social media and technology but also the positives, to give them a better understanding when they get a phone so they are not just going into it having no idea what they are getting into. At least then they would have an idea. Parental controls should also come in with screen time, to help children lower their screen time so they are not on their phones as much. The parental controls can turn off the phone and the apps so they can lower their screen time.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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How often would Noah come across disturbing or harmful material online? How often would it pop up on his screen? Would it be daily? Would he see something harmful every day?

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

I would not be online too much. Similar to Luke, my parents did not let me have a phone until secondary school. It had time restrictions. I would go out and kick a ball around. When I was younger, I was probably online less than kids nowadays but now when I am online, definitely at least several times a week I would come across something I would not have intended or wanted to see online. Katelyn mentioned earlier the amount of disinformation, misinformation and fake news you see online. Whether it is that someone famous is after dying or getting shot, and it is not true at all, or that your favourite soccer team lost and they did not really lose, you see that at least every day online now, I would say.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Would Katelyn have the same experience in relation to harmful content online?

Ms Katelyn Warren:

I am not really sure. Sometimes I would see that kind of content. Sometimes I would see a TikTok masked as a funny video when it really has a harmful message. For example, there are ones about autism. I recognise where people put up information about autism but they would be presenting it in a kind of harmful manner that intends to marginalise and infantilise autistic people. I might sometimes see parents talk about autism but they would show a video of their child having a meltdown, for example, and getting upset, and showing it in a negative light. They are saying this is what the child is doing and they are upsetting things, instead of saying how they can be helped, etc.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Charlie was cut off early in his speech in relation to an issue that is probably affecting all the teenagers here, that is, sexting. How often does that happen on a daily basis. Shineka is a young person. Has she ever come across that inappropriate content?

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Senator needs to be very careful-----

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Yes. This is to the girls in particular and whether they have ever come across anything like that. Have the girls come across that? I ask them not to mention names, but in regard to other people they would know.

Ms Miah Morris:

I have not personally but my friends would see stuff on Snapchat revolving around inappropriate things. You never really know, when you get a request from someone and you accept it, what they can say or send to you. Not me personally but my friend had a situation where she had to block someone. It was not a good situation.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Noah wanted to come in.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes, briefly, go ahead.

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

To quickly add to that, I have come across it personally. I know that when I came across it, I did not know what to do. I was younger, so I went to my parents straight away. I know it was extremely hard to report it. We went down to the Garda station and talked to gardaí but even that process was quite difficult. That definitely has to be looked into - making it a lot easier to go through that process, report it and follow through with repercussions for people doing that to young people.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I thank Noah for saying that because that is the message that we want to come out of this meeting. When people get involved in such inappropriate behaviour towards children, parents should take ownership of it and go straight to the Garda in relation to it. I thank Noah for getting that message out to young people.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Senator Keogan. It now falls to me to ask my questions. We will have a brief second round. Some members may come in later and ask questions then.

I want to ask about connection. In their opening statement, Amber and Miah spoke about people spending too much time online and not seeing their friends enough outside and not getting enough sleep. Notwithstanding what we may have in place for the younger people coming up - the kids who are aged eight and nine years old now - if we look at the kids aged between 12 and 18 now who have already been online and are already experiencing addictive behaviours, what would Amber and Miah suggest to get kids their age, those who are a little older, and indeed those coming up, to connect more with the outside world?

Ms Miah Morris:

Kids have definitely relied on social media to connect with their friends and family a lot more. That takes away from spending time with them in real life. I do not really know what to suggest but I feel that later on in life, we should not be so reliant on Snapchat to communicate. It is not good because we have to communicate in real life with real friends. We were talking about it in school and we saw that kids do not really go out to play any more. They can be seen on social media and it takes away from the experience as a child. Social media is taking the enjoyment of childhood away from them.

Ms Amber Mooney:

It is the same with family. You could ring them and that takes away from seeing them.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Miah and Amber both talked about connecting with friends online. Does that then translate when you meet them? Some might be in your school or some might be at a Foróige event. If you have met somebody online and get that connection, does that translate when you meet them in person or is it awkward? How does that work?

Ms Amber Mooney:

I have friends who I met through my friends. I text them and then go and meet them. It could be awkward because we are texting over the phone but when we actually see each other we do not really know what to say. It kind of makes it awkward.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The language we use in text is so short and then you make those conversations. Does anyone have any other thoughts on that? Shineka, have you met friends online and then find it hard to translate into real life? You are a little bit younger so I am not sure what it is like for your age group.

Ms Shineka Scanlon:

I have not made new friends. I have my original friends from school and we just keep in contact.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Are the conversations you have online different from the conversations that you have in person or do you do it without thinking?

Ms Shineka Scanlon:

I do it without thinking.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Very good. Charlie, go ahead.

Mr. Charlie Grant:

I know it is not social media but online I have made a lot of friends through video games, PlayStation especially. I have never actually met any of these people in person who I have made friends with through these games. Many of them might live abroad. I have a friend who I did know personally and we play PlayStation together. He plays a lot of games that are more open mic. He made a lot of friends that were older. At the time, we were about 13 or 14 and he had friends who were 18 or 19. Although nothing ever went over the line, the idea of that was pretty strange. My mam would come in and ask how I was doing and who I was playing with and I would say my friends from real life, who she knew. I would not include the people she did not know because she would think differently of that, because I was 14 and playing with a 19-year-old. It is not right but at the time, although I knew it was wrong because I was hiding it from her, I did not feel like stopping it.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is like when we go to the shop and buy a box of Pringles, we know we should stop after ten Pringles but we really like the Pringles and we eat the whole box. There is an element of that, is there not?

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

I will add to the point around connectivity. Places like Foróige create those safe spaces. They are hugely important for young people now. In the social media era it is the role of schools and parents to help to guide children towards those safe spaces. We use platforms like Rec Room, an online VR SafeSpace that is, unfortunately, closing in June. Having more such spaces that children can avail of through technology and then carrying that out in safe spaces like Foróige and bringing that into their life helps them more seamlessly to connect their lives and have more connectivity with friends and develop as young people.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is room there for some company to create a safe online space.

Katelyn, what has your experience been like? You have your podcast to spread awareness and tackle misinformation around autism. Have you found online spaces where you like to connect with other autistic people or do you find it easier to connect with friends from school online where you have more time to process the conversations?

Ms Katelyn Warren:

I have both friends at school who I speak to about it, who are also autistic or neurodivergent, but I also have an online presence, mainly on TikTok, where people all over the world comment on my work and like my podcast and videos. I have received several messages, thankfully, saying it really helps or it is really great to see a young autism advocate like me speaking about issues like this and thinking about autism. I have ten episodes mainly about what autism is, myths surrounding it, terms related to it and things like that.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is great. That is the end of my time but when I come back again I will probably come back to Katelyn and ask if all the messages have been positive. You might have a think about whether you have the tools to deal with negative messages if you got some of those. I will come back to that in the second round.

I will move on now in the order of the speaking rota. I have Deputy Claire Kerrane first.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I thank our guests for being here today. I have a constituent in the audiovisual room doing a briefing at the same time as this meeting so I am in and out. I apologise for that. I will watch back the parts of the meeting that I have missed. I am interested in the mental health and well-being side of the online world. That is something that impacts on anyone who is online. There is an impact on everybody. When young people experience something nasty or negative online, not all of them will be lucky enough to have a parent to turn to or somebody they trust. What is your experience of that and the support that is there? Among yourselves and your peers, do you feel there are supports there? I presume you would feel there is a mental health impact from being online.

Mr. Charlie Grant:

As the Deputy said, a lot of people do not want to turn to their parents. Besides that, you can never think of too many other places to go. I could not think of many places I could go if I was in a bad place, besides my parents. They say teachers are there but it does not feel right talking to teachers. There might be helplines but it would feel weird ringing a helpline and talking to someone you do not know. It is just getting people out there but as far as mental health online, it does not even have to be things like bullying. In social media you see this big epidemic of physical appearance. That has become a big thing. Black pill communities have made a huge issue of buying things. I get ads on TikTok for debloating. They are for a creatine-like powder that you can buy and if you put it in water, it makes your face skinnier. I have no idea if it actually works. It is promoted online. It is about making yourself skinny or your body bigger. Although it is great that people are going to the gym, it is still setting unrealistic ideas about how someone should look.

Years ago, people like Andrew Garfield would be the pinnacle but now they are what is expected as far as physical appearance is concerned.

Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Would you see a lot of that online in terms of trying to sell those kind of products?

Mr. Charlie Grant:

Everywhere, including every influencer. This is just an ad I was getting on TikTok. Pretty much every influencer around is promoting some kind of health thing regardless of whether it is good because it is probably not tested.

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

It would be hugely beneficial if instead of those kind of ads, there were more ads about being safe online and we gave young people the opportunity to get involved in making those ads and developing things to help other young people be safer online and to explain the pros and cons. Teachers and SPHE can tell young people they should not do this or that online but at the end of the day, it is about young people talking to other young people and connecting. If you see someone you can relate to on the screen, you will want to engage and take that in. If you see a kid being the star of your favourite show, you will like the TV show so it is a case of making ads that should be out there about things young people need to know and making them engaging by using young people to spread that message.

Ms Katelyn Warren:

Noah's point about creating those safety ads is a good idea and would be an effective measure. It should be almost the same as road safety ads because the RSA road safety ads really show that this is what could happen in a car - that it is a metal box and you can be killed as a result of one mistake. It would involve presenting online safety probably not to the same degree but in a similar manner that shows how to be safe online and what could happen if you engage in unsafe behaviour.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How many hours per day do the witnesses spend online?

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

On average, I spend three hours online on my phone but I am also in an iPad school. Last week, I averaged two and a half hours so every day, I spend five and a half hours on a screen.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I get that. How much time on Spotify?

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

An hour.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What is that?

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

It is a music app.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is not a podcast.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

No. I do not listen to podcasts much - more music.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I would say that is an acceptable hour. Charlie spoke about the embarrassment relating to this particular issue, of which I have had a fair amount so I have avoided it until now. He spoke about the survey, the figure of one in eight and images. Most of this will be stuff he will be aware of - people he knows. He said mentioned a figure of one in eight with regard to the survey. I am aware that anecdotally he is aware of this happening to people. Are we talking about AI-generated images, images that are grabbed from somebody's regular photos and misused or something somebody shared someone else without his or her okay and then sent it to the world?

Mr. Charlie Grant:

I do not know whether or not they are AI-generated. They sent it to someone else, who send it to other people without the person's consent.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I get that. Are any of the witnesses aware of this happening within their friend circle?

Mr. Charlie Grant:

Absolutely.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In that case, are we talking about AI-generated images or a picture somebody shared with someone who then sent it on?

Mr. Charlie Grant:

It involves sharing and sending it on. AI-generated images tend to involve only celebrities.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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So it involves sending shared images on.

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

AI-generated pictures of friends of mine have been created, for example, friends cheating when it never happened. One of my friends was pictured with another friend when he was out of the country all summer and never saw him. There are these pictures of them going around together that are being used to bully other people saying they were being left out. People say it just involves celebrities but in my experience, it does not just involve celebrities.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It gives people an opportunity to create real problems for people and in some cases, it can be desperate stuff that could have a significant impact. Everyone needs a safe space he or she can bring an issue to. These companies use algorithms that use people's own information against them to keep them online. They do not care what terrible places they send people and people find it difficult to get them to okay ads that are beneficial. It is about people spending money with them so it will take a huge amount of regulation and rules. We also need to point out how difficult it is to go to An Garda Síochána and how unreceptive these companies are. That is more a statement unless the witnesses wish to add to it.

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

It needs to be streamlined. It needs to be the norm that a person can go to whoever he or she feels comfortable with such as his or her parents, teachers or a youth worker and be able to talk to them. I am lucky that I have those conversations with my parents over the dinner table and have that space. If it was not for that, I would be put in a very hard place because that is not something a 12- or 13-year-old should have to cope with on his or her own. It definitely needs to be looked into be it creating videos to support them or something different.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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When we talk about online supports, supports within schools and the fact that the witnesses are within a youth work set-up, what has worked for people to give them the protection, resilience and even the critical analysis to be able to deal with the muck that is online? What could be done to spread this to as many people as possible with school being an easy one?

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Could the witnesses have a think about it? Deputy Ó Murchú always tries to push the time. We are getting really comfortable now, which is really good, and are getting really good information but I ask witnesses to be careful not to mention any names if they are sharing stories about friends so that we stay above board.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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When the witnesses look at harmful content, the addictive nature of the algorithms or the spreading of misinformation, what is their favourite activity and why? What is the one they think causes the most harm in general? What is their favourite activity, even in terms of connecting with friends? What is the one that is most beneficial?

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

It is probably an unpopular opinion among young people but WhatsApp is probably my favourite app because of the practicality aspect. I get all my work messages on it and then I use it for communicating with my family-----

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Because a lot of older people have WhatsApp.

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

I use it for communicating with my family, be they my grandparents, uncles, aunts and cousins. I text my close friends and work friends on WhatsApp but would mostly use Snapchat with school friends.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Does Noah consider them to be social media? Does he consider WhatsApp to be social media?

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

I do. The most negative one is probably Snapchat because of peer pressure and the negative sides of school life following you home. Snapchat is the app that tends to do that, for example, groups where you are added, people gang up on you and that follows you home. You could be sitting at your dinner table with your family trying to have dinner and you are getting these texts from a group you do not even want to be in.

That is usually negative for young people.

Ms Miah Morris:

My favourite app is TikTok. As I mentioned, there are a lot of positives. You can pick up study tips and information about world issues. You can learn a lot. Obviously, there are negatives. A person can spend a lot of time on it; it takes up a lot of screen time. You can lose track of how long you spend on it but it is fun and you can learn a lot from it. When we think about the amount of information shared on the app - I have learned so much from it. I have learned about the Dáil on TikTok. It is really interesting. There are negatives. Obviously there is cyberbullying on it and everything but TikTok tries its best to censor the comments, but not really.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Which is Shineka's favourite and why? Which app does she think is the most addictive and that spreads the most misinformation?

Ms Shineka Scanlon:

My favourite app is Snapchat because you get to connect with friends. Some friends’ parents can be strict and you cannot meet up with them so you call or text on Snapchat.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Does you see any negatives to that?

Ms Shineka Scanlon:

Only bullying, but I do not get bullied.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Thanks, Shineka. What about Luke? The older a person gets, the more his or her use of different apps changes as well.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

The Senator mentioned the addictive nature of apps. Tiktok is number one for its addictive nature by a mile. It glues you to it and hardwires your brain for short media content. Like Pringles, “Once you pop, you can't stop.” It is quite difficult.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Can the automatic scrolling be controlled? Can there be controls around that?

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

The issue with automatic scrolling is when the video ends it scrolls for you which is even more dangerous. It means you can hold the phone and does not even have to bother scrolling. That shows how addictive it is built to be. It is literally meant to hardwire you so that you use it as much as you can. For a child or a teenager like me, you are going to be addicted.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Any of us would be.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

Anyone would be. All of my grandparents are becoming addicted to Youtube Shorts because it is short-term media content. It is quick-paced and the brain gets used to that dopamine hit. That is turned into a biological response where you need it.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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If there were controls around autoplay, do you think that would help? On Netflix, users can turn them off. Otherwise, they could be stuck on a series forever. It could be a very simple thing that the default would be not to have autoplay.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

The nature of TikTok is the person keeps scrolling and does not know what is next. With Netflix shows, he or she has an idea. With TikTok it can be any video. I can go from football content to comedy to politics – bang, bang. It is very quick. TikTok is unpredictable. It is built for you to interact with it as much as you can.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Do you like TikTok?

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

I love it and hate it. I can easily waste 30 minutes, and it is a waste of 30 minutes.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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The witnesses are all doing absolutely brilliantly. Well done to them. I love the project they did in relation to the film and all of the topics they covered on it. We could do more of that throughout the country. Well done to all involved.

It is fantastic to have Foróige and YAP here. I am aware of all of the work they do for communities and for young people throughout the country. YAP provides a marvellous service. It is not just the online stuff it does but the practical activities it organises on a daily basis with good mentors. I hope it continues that good work.

I wish to ask all of our witnesses their top two media influencers. Who are the top two media influencers they follow online? I will start with Shineka.

Ms Shineka Scanlon:

I only have one; Salish Matter.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Who?

Ms Shineka Scanlon:

Salish Matter.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

Mine is a YouTube history channel called “Oversimplified.”

Mr. Charlie Grant:

Mine is Joe Bartolozzi.

Ms Katelyn Warren:

I personally like an influencer called Spencer Barbarossa. She promotes body positivity and positive messages like that specifically for young women.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Who is Noah's?

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

To be honest I have no idea.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Do you not have a favourite influencer?

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

In general, I follow influencers but I could not pick one off the top of my head.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Which influencers do you follow?

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

Cristiano Ronaldo is a pretty obvious one for a young lad. The messages he puts across are important for young people. They show that discipline. That can definitely carry into TikTok and being able to not just keep scrolling.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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What about Amber and MIa?

Ms Miah Morris:

I agree with what Katelyn said. Spencer Barbarossa is really good. She promotes body positivity and makes girls feel more comfortable in their body because with social media you tend to compare yourself to what you see online. She shuts that down and makes girls feel way more comfortable.

Ms Amber Mooney:

I have seen Spencer Barbarossa’s videos and they are about her body and creating awareness and putting comments out.

Shanice Griffin is from Dublin. There was a girl online who was getting bullied for posting videos and she made sure to create awareness about it. She sent her gifts and everything and she stopped it. That girl is getting more views and not as much hate anymore.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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That is good. What do our witnesses think could be done to get children off social media and back into real world activities? What do they suggest could be done?

Ms Katelyn Warren:

A contributor to young people being addicted to social media is example of parents. In my house, I try to make it a rule that there are no phones at the dinner table because that is a time to talk and interact with your family and the same with friends at lunch. I do my best and try to advise my friends as well not to be on their phone unless necessary when talking to someone because that is the time to put phones down.

Mr. Charlie Grant:

Encouraging young people to get involved with anything like sports, youth groups or Comhairle na n-Óg, or in any way go outside and interact off of social media is the best thing.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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What does Luke think?

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

I agree with Charlie about Comhairle na n-Óg. Youth groups are great. However, not everyone even knows they exist. I only knew because I did a school programme and a man came in with a sign-up sheet and told me what it was and I thought, “Yeah. That sounds like it is for me.”

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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What does Mia think could be done?

Ms Miah Morris:

I am not really sure. It has a lot to do with what parents do. Parents should set an example. If your child is misbehaving, you should not just shove a screen in their face to make them deregulate. You should talk to them and not just rely on screens most of the time.

Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Clearly a lot of stepping up with parenting needs to be done in this country.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will then come back to the witnesses for their closing thoughts. There is no pressure on anybody to make a speech off the cuff. I know that is a lot of pressure but if there is anything they want us to think about and put in our report as last thoughts, they can share that.

I wish to go back to something. I know I was picking on Amber and Mia earlier and I am coming back again but everybody can come in. They were talking about adverts and how they should not be allowed for children. Everybody has mentioned their favourite influencer when Senator Keogan asked them. If we get rid of adverts for children, what do the witnesses think the rules should be around influencers? We could say Katelyn is a very good influencer and sharing good information but Luke and Charile talked about people sharing dangerous products. Those would not necessarily be paid advertisements; they might be getting gifts. What does everyone think the rules should be if we get rid of advertisements from companies around influencers their own age getting gifts and things?

What do you think the rules should be about that? I might start with Amber and Miah because you put it in your statement. Then we can see what other people think.

Ms Miah Morris:

On YouTube Kids there are ads. Why are they trying to sell stuff to kids? They cannot buy it. It is kind of unnecessary. With all the people on TikTok, when an ad comes up there are ads about trying to make yourself look better and all this stuff about looks. It is really negative and makes people more insecure. The influence I mentioned, Spencer, only promotes body positivity ads. I feel those should come up more and not trying to hide your body, like shorts that cover your belly or something. They should not be trying to sell that stuff. Also, there should be no ads on YouTube Kids because what is the need?

Mr. Charlie Grant:

My cousin is a very big influencer so I know a lot about this. On social media in Ireland, the likes of TikTok and Instagram do not actually pay influencers from the app, so they have to get their money in other ways. The big way my cousin does it is from product placement. It is not like movies where you just put it in the background, as she talks about it. These companies send her stuff, so her house is filled with all this different stuff. She usually gives it to me because she does not want half of it. Her house is filled with all this stuff-----

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Do you think that should be allowed, going forward, if we were to get rid of ads? Do you think somebody young is able to ascertain what is a good product or a bad product or that if they get something for free they are going to market it anyway? What are your thoughts on that?

Mr. Charlie Grant:

I don't think you should take it away entirely because then you are taking away the sources of income for these influencers but we should be stricter on what they can and cannot produce, like if something is not tested. If it is not sold in a shop then realistically they should not be allowed promote it because it probably is not up to any standards.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

We need to have almost a governing body for what ads can be displayed. I get rampant ads for online gambling. I hate it. I constantly hit the "block this ad" button but they keep coming. It is always a different ad but it could be the same website. I do not think there is an overall authority for what an ad should be or what is appropriate because I am 17, I am underage and I am getting ads for gambling. That should not happen. What if that is happening for a small kid? They see all the colours of the roulette wheel and they say "Oh yeah!". It is not appropriate.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes, and we have heard of different families getting their credit card cleared out by a small child who is buying things. Katelyn, did you want to come in?

Ms Katelyn Warren:

I just wanted to inquire if you want to come back on my point about autism or if you want to ask-----

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes, thank you for reminding me. Go ahead.

Ms Katelyn Warren:

What did you want to ask about?

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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You were saying you get lovely, positive messages and comments and I was wondering if you have experienced any negative comments and if you feel you have the tools to deal with that. As a politician I get lots of negative comments and I had to learn how to deal with that.

Ms Katelyn Warren:

I am aware people can be narrow-minded like that. There was one specific comment I got. I had a radio interview where I talked about my podcast, my message and why I have it and I got a comment where someone asked how come no-one in their school had autism in the 1970s. I did not respond to it but I knew what I wanted to say, which is that it was because people with autism were either in different schools, not in schools at all or just put in psychiatric wards or something like that because autism was often misinterpreted as being schizophrenia or something more severe like that. I am lucky to not have got a lot of negative comments. I just get a few like that one, but I know how to deal with that.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Well done, and well done everybody.

Now I am going to go to your closing remarks. We are going to put one minute on the clock but we have a little bit of time. We are going to finish a little earlier to make sure we have time for photographs and everything else. I am not going to go in the exact order I did in the beginning as I want to go with what you are comfortable with, if somebody wants to start. All it is is just your closing remarks on how you experienced today and what you think we should remember. Charlie is going to go first. Thanks, Charlie.

Mr. Charlie Grant:

There should be stronger restrictions and legislation around children on social media. Although parents need to have a step-up in many ways, there should be supports and knowledge given to them about social media. They should not be in the dark and should be given help and support to help their child.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Great, thank you Charlie. Go ahead, Noah.

Mr. Noah O'Shea:

Just to sum things up I want to really emphasise we need to hold social media companies to account and make sure there are built-in security measures that are tackling the problem from the start rather than waiting for the problem to come up, allowing people to get affected by it and then trying to fix it. Having it there in the first place is really important.

Another thing I wanted to mention that has not come up is how to get young people more involved. It would be really beneficial if there was something like an online portal on the Oireachtas website or something like that where young people were able to comment on issues and give their opinion so it could be reviewed by TDs and Senators and be talked about. That way you do not have to put people on the spot. They would not have to come and speak up here but Members would still be getting young people's views on making policy and things like that.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Thanks, Noah. Would anyone like to go next? Luke, please.

Mr. Luke McCluskey:

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. The lack of Irish legislation regarding social media is appalling. Most Acts that come through are retrospective because a tragedy has occurred. Coco's Law is the main example. Sadly, it took a life to be lost for that law to come in. We cannot keep moving forward expecting nothing to happen. We know there will be more incidents in future. We need to begin the process of legislating and to protect the youngest people in our society. My sister is 11 and she will be the next person who is going to be using social media. I am scared and my family is scared because we know there is a chance she could become that next martyr and we cannot afford to have more martyrs in this society. We need change.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Luke. Does anyone else have a closing remark or last thoughts? Miah, go ahead.

Ms Miah Morris:

My last thoughts are really just to listen to us and while you note the negatives about technology and social media, take into account the positives as well.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A very good point. Katelyn, please.

Ms Katelyn Warren:

I am really just going back to what Noah said about that change needing to happen, which will in turn make the online space in general a safer place for young people. Everyone should take a collective role in making that happen whether that is parents, young people themselves taking ownership, youth workers and volunteers in Foróige, for example, and even higher up in the Government so that online space can be created and young people enabled to connect in that safe space and navigate for themselves online.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Very good. Amber, do you want to say anything to finish or are you happy? You are happy you have got all your points across.

Ms Amber Mooney:

Yes.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We can chat later in the coffee dock if you want. Perfect. Shineka, do you have anything else you want to say? You are good. We will have a chat informally.

I will give the spokespeople or the accompanying adults a chance now if they would like. Go ahead, Mr. Fowler.

Mr. Aaron Fowler:

As a youth officer it would be remiss of me not to promote youth work as having a role in this. Our project came about through co-operation and joint work with the CYPSCs, Tusla funding, working closely with the North Eastern Regional Drug and Alcohol Task Force and Healthy Ireland funding. As people within this space we have got to pull together as the responsible adults and provide every opportunity we can for young people to have more of a say about these matters.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Thank you. Ms O'Dwyer, do you want to come in?

Ms Siobhán O'Dwyer:

I again thank the committee for the invitation. Earlier we talked about how do young people know how to manage this situation. Listening to the group who worked on this for us, it was very solution focused and that was really positive. Obviously it is about building self-confidence, self-esteem and resilience in young people. We have not talked about the fact there is a huge digital divide even between deprived areas and other situations. The impact of poverty also amplifies the negative impacts of social media, which is unfortunate. There is a need to reach out to different groups of young people and families, and particularly to offer parents extra support. The young people were amazing at coming up with solutions that I think are possible, which is great. As other young people have said, listening and helping them to help one another is important. Later this year, we hope to do another project on social media for young people and parents.

Mr. Anthony O'Connor:

I echo what has been said about raising awareness about the fantastic resources like Foróige's Connect Safely programme and Webwise, which are not in all areas. Earlier, sexting was discussed for which there is legislation and guidelines. In general, people are not aware of these avenues of support. In terms of online resilience and the role of a youth worker in those in-person conversations and relationships, people should talk about that. Technology also has many benefits. For example, digital youth work is the new norm for Foróige. There needs to a balanced view so that the benefits of technology, not just social media, can be promoted to provide digital literacy for young people and, potentially, for jobs and employment, and to further mitigate the risks.

Mr. John Brennan:

I represent a family support service that is located in a major housing estate in Sligo where we have worked with people from cradle to grave for many years. This side of our work is changing dramatically. I think we are forgetting that families experience peer pressure because of what children feel they need and this is happening earlier and earlier. If an eight-year-old child's buddy down the street has a phone then he or she will want a phone. Even though the estate in which my family support service works has a lot of poverty, that poverty is forgotten and the mum and dad or whoever is caring for the kids will feel they need to step up. Even though there might not be a lot on the table that phone will be got. Therefore, we must examine this type of peer pressure.

Education is another issue. I am in the game an awful long time and I consistently ask my younger members of staff how is this changing so quickly. Parents need to be educated about both the benefits and pitfalls that we discover on a daily basis. It is a continuing battle. We are at the front door but the situation changes so quickly. Dads and mums ask me about the situation and I would not have a clue so I ask the younger generation. We need to be at the forefront of this and bring it back to the huge companies that benefit financially.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank everyone for their presentations and contributions to this discussion. I also thank the people in the Gallery, many of whom have helped the witnesses prepare and some even took a hard day off school or studies, for which I thank them. This is our second session with young people. We have had a lot of sessions on this topic. We have had some people in who have good resources. We have had organisations responsible for bringing in legislation like ourselves or ensuring that there is follow through on existing legislation. We will have representatives of the companies in to discuss this topic. We are armed and ready with a lot of questions for them. Again, all of the comments and submissions today will be put into our report, the same as all of other witnesses, and we will then send those recommendations to the Government. This meeting is adjourned.