Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We have received no apologies from members.

I ask anyone attending remotely to mute themselves when not contributing in order that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are either on silent mode or switched off entirely.

Members attending this meeting remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside of the Houses or an official of the Houses, either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I warmly welcome the Minister for Education and Youth, Hildegarde Naughton, and her officials. The Minister is here to discuss her key priorities for the Department of Education and Youth, including inclusive education. The Minister may call on her officials to speak briefly where a specific technical point arises for clarification during the evidence, and the officials may clarify the issue for the committee. Any follow-up questions should be put to the Minister as the accountable person before the committee. I am aware that there is a range of issues under discussion today. If necessary, more detailed information on certain issues raised can be sent to the clerk for circulation to members. The committee and I want to assist in any way we can to make this both beneficial and a productive meeting.

I now call on the Minister, Hildegarde Naughton, to make her opening statement. She has five minutes to make the statement, and we will follow it with questions from members of the committee.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Gabhaim buíochas le baill an choiste. I thank the joint committee for the invitation to appear before members. This is my first time to appear at the committee since my appointment as Minister for Education and Youth. I look forward to working with the committee to advance our common goals, serving the best interests of our children and young people. The focus of our discussion is the key priorities for the Department of Education and Youth, including inclusive education.

The programme for Government identifies a large number of commitments to be advanced by my Department. This work will continue the delivery of my vision of an education system which enables all children and young people in every community to be supported to fulfil their potential.

It is important to acknowledge the challenges and barriers faced by children and young people who experience or are at risk of educational disadvantage. The DEIS programme targets additional resources where they are most needed. I recently launched the DEIS strategy to 2035 and the new DEIS plus scheme. The strategy is supported by a full-year investment of €48 million. This is the single biggest full-year investment in addressing educational disadvantage since the DEIS programme was established. The DEIS plus scheme will provide enhanced, targeted supports to 121 schools with the highest concentrations of children and young people at risk of educational disadvantage. I am committed to ensuring that all schools are treated equally and fairly in the manner in which they have been identified for inclusion in the DEIS plus scheme. Schools that are not satisfied with the outcome will have the opportunity to appeal. This appeals process opened on Monday and will close on 25 May 2026.

The NCSE this week sanctioned a further 32 new special classes for the next school year, 2026-27. This brings to 464 the number of new special classes sanctioned for the next school year. This is the highest ever annual provision of new special classes. Of these new special classes, 305 will open in primary schools and 159 in post-primary schools. My Department and the NCSE are working to confirm further new special classes for the next school year in the coming weeks. New special classes are being provided in every county. For example, 105 new special classes have been confirmed for schools in County Dublin to date and 55 for schools in County Cork. I look forward to confirming further new special classes in the coming weeks. These new special classes mean that there will be over 4,000 special classes operating in mainstream schools across the country in the next school year. This is up from 1,836 in 2020.

I also announced the establishment of four new special schools for the coming school year. These are a vital step in ensuring that children and young people with special educational needs have access to the specialist supports they need to thrive and to reach their full potential. Working groups have been established to support the establishment of new special schools. These bring together patron bodies, my Department and the NCSE. I understand that the patron bodies are now moving to commence the recruitment of new principals for the new schools and that the admissions processes will follow thereafter next month.

It is important that we progress inclusion and inclusive practices to the greatest extent possible. For that reason, I intend to establish a forum in the very near future comprising representatives of all the education stakeholders and advocacy groups. Its first task will be to develop a shared vision for inclusive education.

We live in a world which is changing rapidly. Work is ongoing to update the school curriculum to respond to these changes. Senior cycle redevelopment aims to develop a more integrated senior cycle. Every student should be supported in accessing and exploring different academic, learning and potential career pathways. All learning pathways in school must be accessible and equally valued. As part of this work, level 1 and level 2 learning programmes at senior cycle were introduced in 2024. This was a significant milestone for education in Ireland. It provides a follow-on programme for students studying at level 1 and level 2 at junior cycle.

My Department has a strong track record of delivery, underpinned by a robust forward planning process. Under the NDP sectoral investment plan for education and youth, more than €7.55 billion will be invested over the coming five years to expand capacity and upgrade school facilities. A key focus of the plan is maximising existing capacity and prioritising projects that address the most urgent needs. Special education places are being delivered as a standard feature of new buildings and extensions. In addition, special classes are being accommodated through the repurposing of existing capacity where available, and through the modular accommodation framework where there is no existing capacity in an area.

We will increase choice of school type for parents by ensuring that families can access both multidenominational and faith-based education. In late 2025 my Department undertook the largest online survey ever undertaken. This engaged parents and guardians on the type of educational provision they would like to see. There was an excellent response. Over 200,000 households completed the survey. My Department is continuing its detailed analysis of the survey data and is preparing finalised school-specific reports. These reports will be issued to all primary schools in May.

The convention on education is a once-in-a-generation opportunity to help shape Ireland's education system for decades to come.

I know I am over my time, Chair. Do you want me to complete-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I think it would be worthwhile-----

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes. The remaining points may be of interest. I am nearly finished.

The convention comprises 150 participants. The participants comprise children and young people, parents and guardians, school employees and early years educators, and education stakeholders.

I welcome the fact that children and young people will be full members and will have an equal weighting with adults in the room. The convention first met in March and will meet three more times this year. The agenda for the convention has been agreed by Government. Some of the issues participants are being asked to consider are: a shared vision for education for the remainder of the 21st century; better connected pathways in education; building strong links with communities; and supporting our workforce to better develop, sustain and respond to the needs of our children and young people today.

I very much welcome the recent Government decision to provide additional funding of €646 million to bring the overall budget for my Department to €14.1 billion in 2026. This additional funding will address structural funding deficits in my Department. It will help ensure that high-quality education services are maintained for children and young people across the country. In addition to fixing the base funding, the increased budget includes provision of €19 million for additional SNAs. This will mean no redeployment of existing SNAs and resources to accommodate additional children and young people with special educational needs in our schools and enhanced supports for survivors of historical residential abuse.

My Department responds to demand and currently provides education to almost 1 million children and young people. This work is supported by a workforce of approximately 112,000. I look forward to briefing the committee further on this as part of the Estimates meeting scheduled for next month. I thank members for the opportunity to be here today.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister. We will now have members' questions with six minutes per member. I will tap the glass. We will give a slight bit of leeway to allow people to close out points. I hope to get everyone in for a second round. I will be tightish enough on times today.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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The Minister's title is Minister for Education and Youth. The purpose of this statement was to identify the key priorities for the Department of Education and Youth, yet nothing has been mentioned in the statement about youth services. I find that very disappointing. A very good strategy, Opportunities for Youth: the National Strategy for Youth Work 2024-2028, was launched but we have not got any update on the progress being made in mapping youth services and facilities against the population or identifying the need for capital investment due to service gaps. While there may not be time this evening, we really need an update on the status of that strategy. I recently tabled a motion in the Seanad which got cross-party support and was not opposed. Senators from all parties who spoke identified the need for increased investment. We really need to look at increasing the investment in youth services.

On inclusive education, the Minister stated that 464 new special classes and four special schools will be opened this year. She said that she would have a forum on education including education stakeholders and advocacy groups in the near future. I ask her to be more precise about that because it is very vague. I really think this is needed. We need to have all the stakeholders and advocacy groups sitting down to look at inclusive education as a whole. New special classes and new special schools are opening. It is very ad hoc and does not seem to be planned. It is constantly responding to emergencies. For example, how many children still do not have a school place for September? We know quite a number this year did not get a school place and more did not get an appropriate school place. All children need to get the appropriate education in their local school where possible. That can only happen with increased resources and with an overall plan for inclusive education that includes everybody. That will include increased provision for SNAs. We had the recent debacle around SNAs and I will not go back into it. We need SNAs to support our students in their local communities where possible.

I also wish to raise the schools building programme. Officials from the Department appeared before the committee supposedly to answer questions on the schools building programme but, to be frank, they did not answer any. A number of questions were asked about the cost of modular and how they prioritise expenditure on the schools building programme, but none of those questions were answered. I would like to get some answers on those.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The previous budget increased funding for youth affairs, which is a very important part of my brief. There are opportunities for youth affairs. On the action plan, the implementation plan is being prepared. There is an increase in capital funding of €4 million for youth services. We have our UBU programme, a fantastic service that is being rolled out across the country. Summer meals will be part of that. I am very conscious that when children and young people are in school, in many cases, they have access to free school meals. We want to roll that out across our youth services.

Approximately 450,000 young people are now involved in youth work or youth-related activities across the country with over 40,000 volunteers. It is an absolute priority for me. I know of the good work the Senator is doing with legislation and motions she is bringing forward. I am open to working with colleagues as well. I approved an action plan to support the delivery of the agreed opportunities for youth, OFY, actions to ensure there is effective mainstreaming of the strategic objectives within that document. Consultation on the action plan's implementation is under way with the youth sector itself.

The Senator spoke about special education and the roll-out of the NDP capital plan. As she knows, we had 105 projects as part of the first tranche of the NDP capital plan. Those are projects going to tender and construction this year and next year to the value of €1.6 billion. There has been significant progress on those within the NDP system.

The Senator is correct that the demand for special education has increased. This is not unique to Ireland and applies right across Europe. I was in Cyprus at a European Council meeting of education ministers. When I asked my colleagues there what their top issue is, I was told it is the increase in demand for special education. Analysis of the data has shown the number of children requiring special classes and special places has increased. We have 20 new special schools and we are opening special classes in every county around the country with more to come. A total of 464 special classes have already been sanctioned this year which is well ahead of previous years. That is because of the earlier notification process.

I know the Senator had other questions.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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The Minister said she is organising a forum but "near future" is very vague. When will that take place? It is really important for that to happen. We need a comprehensive discussion on inclusive education bringing all the stakeholders in. Will every child have an appropriate school place in September?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will deal with the Senator's last question first. I am conscious that many parents are very concerned. It is our role to ensure that every child has a school place. It may not be exactly where that child wants to be or where their parents want them to be. We are looking at the pressures within the system and working with the NCSE and the school patrons on the roll-out of special classes and new special schools.

I want to get the forum set up in the coming weeks. It will be independently chaired and will include key stakeholders, advocacy groups and experts in this area.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am sure we will get into that later.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. I wish to advert to a school that is, somewhat illogically, a victim of its own success in that in 2024 it accepted a formal offer for four mainstream classrooms, three learning support rooms and two autism special educational needs classrooms. I refer to Scoil Gharbháin, scoil lán-Ghaelach atá lonnaithe i nDún Garbhán i gContae Phort Láirge. In February 2025, the Department confirmed that a design team would be in touch with the school within three to four weeks. That never happened. In December of last year after eight months of tost, silence, the building unit urged the board of management to adopt a modular construction instead of the traditional construction. I am looking at the Minister's schools building programme which is very ambitious. The school was promised high-priority status and a more flexible timeline. Consequently, the board accepted immediately so that the process could move forward. However, in January 2026, the official list of modular constructions was published. It did not have the name of Scoil Gharbháin without any explanation.

The school is a victim of its own success. It has demographic pressure from Dungarvan and a space crisis.

The Dungarvan population is growing very strongly. There are two other primary schools that cannot accept entrants at the moment. This school has the personal interest of the Taoiseach himself, who accepts its bona fides and the urgency. Now that I can talk to her face to face, I ask the Minister why there is this breach of faith with this school and with the promises from the Department.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator. I will come back to him on the specifics of the school. As he might appreciate, there are 4,000 schools across the country and I do not have the exact detail. I will certainly come back to him directly on the stage that is at.

To talk about Waterford in general, the Department has provided €144.8 million in capital funding for Waterford schools since 2020. Over that period, 33 schools have been upgraded either through the provision of a new school building, a large-scale extension or modular accommodation. There are six schools under construction in Waterford and another two school projects that will go to tender or construction this year and next year. There are seven schools approved to undergo works as part of the climate action summer works scheme. In addition, since 2020, a total of 63 special classes have been opened in Waterford, 12 of which have been sanctioned for the coming September.

I will come back to the Senator on that specific school, if that is okay, but on the NDP and the prioritisation process in general, schools that were at stage 3 or very close to going to construction and schools that did not have a base and may have been working out of a sports club, for example-----

Joe Conway (Independent)
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Not only does this school have a home, it also has an adjacent site of over 2 acres purchased by the Department of education, so that is not a tenable excuse. Also, the urgency is illustrated by the fact that there is one class operating off site because of the spatial pressures.

While I have a few seconds, or more, I wish to ask the Minister about the Department undertaking the largest online survey ever. It may be the fault of my research team but I have no knowledge of that survey. Is there any possibility that the Minister could furnish it to the committee so that we could all have sight of it?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is the primary school survey asking parents about their chosen ethos.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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Yes.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We have published the higher level data. Next month, which is-----

Joe Conway (Independent)
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It is not the results of the survey I am looking for, but the actual construction of the survey itself.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Okay. That was online. We can get the questions furnished to the Senator. Just to say, when I talk about a school without a home, I mean schools that might currently be in a sports club, for example.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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Yes, I understand. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator. I will come back to him on those specific questions.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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The Minister is welcome to her first meeting. I think a lot of people are struggling here because there are so many issues we want to raise in such a short time. I am going to have leave out, for the moment, things like the senior cycle and leaving certificate, the victimisation of the Association of Secondary Teachers, Ireland, ASTI, that I spoke about last night, DEIS plus and how so many schools are being left off it, the summer programme, religion in schools, and so on. I am just going to focus on three to four things. My first question is very short - it is kind of a "Yes" and a date question - and then I will move on to the others.

The question is on the task force on special education in Dublin 15 arising from a 2024 grassroots movement of parents demanding school places for their children in the area I represent. I was not in the Dáil at the time. As the Minister knows, many parents went onto this body, as did teachers. They spent a long time putting together recommendations and handed them over last July. Why has that report not been published and when will the Department publish it? I have raised this four times in the Dáil and been told it will be done urgently, imminently and soon. Which is it? Will the Minister give us a date and then just do it? It is an insult to the people of Dublin 15 and also to everybody looking at what special education needs.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. I set up that task force, so I am critically aware of the importance of this being published, as is the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan. It will be published very shortly - I would say within days or a week or so. There are recommendations in that document that were formed by these parents, working with schools and patrons. The Deputy knows exactly the whole process and the huge amount of work that went in to get a report back with that from the Department because many of those recommendations are being worked on.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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What is the delay?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am in the role since November, I probably had other priorities when I was first appointed, particularly funding. I want to tell the Deputy and reassure the parents, and I know it has taken too long and I absolutely acknowledge that-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Okay, so very soon.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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-----and it will be very soon. The Minister of State will be meeting the group before it is published. That is really important because of the work they put into this. Feedback on the progress made on those recommendations to date will be published as well.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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All right, so very soon.

A figure of roughly 2,360 children still needing school places has been mentioned but those are only the ones informed to the NCSE, I understand, by last October. How many more have emerged since? Is it thousands as well? What is the actual number of places that are needed?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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From the figures I have here to date, the NCSE sanctioned a total of 17 new special classes for the 2025-26 year. That is for the Dublin 15 area.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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No, I am sorry. I mean nationally.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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These are national figures. We do not need 2,360 in Dublin West alone.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Okay. I thought the Deputy was just asking about Dublin 15.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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Well, we probably do, but these are national figures. People are waiting to know how many places are needed. Does the Minister have that figure - not just the figure for October last year, but the most up-to-date figure?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I apologise to the Deputy. From the data available to the NCSE, 7,860 was the total level of need as of 1 October and there are more parents who have come in since then. Of the 7,860 figure, 75% of those children already have a place, that is, they are already enrolled in a school. The priority group for access to specialist placements for this upcoming school year will be children who are not in school coming into primary school, children moving from primary to post-primary school and children who do not have a place, such as where a child is moving to an area or a placement has broken down.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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From the 2,360, the Minister said more came in. Does she know that figure? She does not. Okay.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is coming in all the time. There are parents out there who do not currently know that their child may need a special school or a special place.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I need to ask the Minister about this new model class she has introduced. Why did she introduce a new model of inclusive special classes without any consultation with disabled groups and the community? I am thinking of Inclusion Ireland, AsIAm, SNAs and special education teachers. The only talk was with the management of the five schools, from what I can see. Will this pilot be rolled out and why was such a concept introduced? What is making these classes more inclusive than the other ones that exist? Everyone wants to know.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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First of all, it is not a pilot, as these classes already exist. These are post-primary schools that are already doing this. I listened to teachers, who are the professionals on the ground doing this, especially in post-primary school where you have young people - and the voice of the young person is really important here as well - who do not want to spend most of their day in a special class when they can be with their peers and friends in a mainstream class. They have that special class or that base to go back to during the day where they have access to a special education teacher and an SNA and they can get those social, emotional-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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So they can go back to the class of 29 they were not able to cope in in primary.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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How this works is these schools get an extra teacher, two extra SNAs and the start-up grant of €30,000, or more if more refurbishment is needed. These are schools across the country. What I want to do as Minister is provide them with even more supports-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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But did the Minister not talk to the groups that are specialist in this?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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-----by providing an extra teacher.

We always engage with education stakeholders and advocacy groups.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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The Minister did not, though.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, has met them.

This is already happening around the country. This is inclusive education and it is working in a really successful way, where you walk into a special class and the children are in the mainstream for most of the day where they want to be and they can come back to this class with the supports.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Please conclude, Minister.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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What I am providing here is extra staffing, an extra teacher and two extra SNAs, and they get everything that a special class would get around resources and the children-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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But double the number of students-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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One second now, colleagues. Deferred divisions have been called in the Dáil Chamber. For anyone who is watching this committee, we will have to suspend for a short while to go to these divisions. I do not know how long they will take. Actually, there is just one division, so for anyone watching this remotely - I know people occasionally tune in - we could be back in about 15 or 20 minutes. We will suspend and reconvene here shortly.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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In our previous session before we suspended, Senator Tully raised an important issue. To clarify, the committee received correspondence from the Secretary General of the Department of Education and Youth specifically responding to queries raised by Senator Tully on 23 February regarding school buildings. This was received on 10 April and noted in private session by the committee at our meeting on 22 April last. Copies of correspondence had been circulated to members in advance.

We will continue with the questioning of the Minister, and I am up next. How is it that the Department got into a €650 million overspend? In light of the huge financial pressures people are facing at present, will the Minister be pushing ahead with plans to increase the cost of school buses this year and reintroduce State examination fees, given that they have been waived for the past five consecutive years?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach. First of all, it was not an overspend within the Department of Education and Youth. When I came into this role back in November, it was very clear to me that, for many years, the Department of Education and Youth had been underfunded; there was a structural deficit. To give one figure, 84% of the budget within the Department goes on pay and pensions. For me to do my job as Minister for Education and Youth - I make absolutely no apologies for this - it was critically important that I get that base reset, which I have done, notwithstanding the many challenges we face within the education sector. There is a lot of fantastic work happening right across the sector and it was important that we got that work done.

The fee per day for a primary school pupil taking school transport is 55 cent, 60 cent for a post-primary student and €1.32 for a family. We need to improve the data in the Department, through the Department of Transport and Bus Éireann, around the usage of school buses across the country. We are finding that there are some buses where we do not have the data on what number of pupils and students take the bus in the morning but do not take it in the evening-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Respectfully, we want to know whether the price will go up, Minister.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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All the research is telling us that we need to charge something. Again, this is far lower than public transport fares - it is 55 cent or 60 cent per day - in order to incentivise people to use the buses. There is huge demand for public transport, but we need to ensure-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Minister speak to the leaving certificate fee as well?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The leaving cert fees have not increased since 2012. This was a measure that came in during Covid, around 2020, and there was a commitment in the last budget to reinstate those fees.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Respectfully, it was a cost-of-living measure when the fee was waived and we are unfortunately in that scenario again, owing to the many crises happening in the world. I do not think it is the year that families can absorb those additional costs.

I want to query a few circulars that are very important for day-to-day functionality in the education sphere. Circular 0054/2019 limits the amount of subbing days a teacher on career leave can do. They are typically allowed to take on a maximum of 90 days, but there was a communiqué issued by the Minister's Department last year, TC/IN 0004/2025, which basically allowed an open season whereby people could sub, which was needed because of shortages in teaching. Teachers are now wondering if that is to come again this year. Many schools are waiting to hear about this. They are also wondering if the Minister can give timelines on the review of Circular 0030/2014, which defines the role of the SNA and the care needs of a child. A guidance document is normally issued around this time of year regarding July provision. When can we expect to see those three important documents issued?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will start with the SNA circular because I will have to come back to the Chair on the circular on subbing.

I want to publish the three documents with the guidance around it, that is, the SNA redeployment scheme, the SNA workforce development plan and the updated 2014 circular. There has been a huge amount of engagement in recent years with key stakeholders, such as SNAs, Fórsa, teachers and education stakeholders, who have co-designed the SNA workforce development plan. I want to publish that shortly and make sure that those documents are communicated appropriately with guidance.

We all know and appreciate that the role of the SNA has evolved over the years, and we all know the importance of SNAs in our school systems up and down the country. The work they do to support our young people, to support teachers-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Could the Minister set out the timeline? We are going to run out of time.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I want to do that over the next couple of weeks.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Good.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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As recently as three weeks ago, the Minister of State, Deputy Moynihan, and I met all of the key stakeholders again - unions, SNAs, all of the advocacy groups - to look at those documents to see if there were any further gaps. There has been a huge amount of work, with 55 meetings-----

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that, but I am going to run out of time. Regarding the communiqué I asked about that was issued in recent years about teachers subbing over and beyond the 90 days, will that issue again this year? There was a communiqué issued that allowed teachers to sub beyond the 90-day restriction when they were on career break. Will that issue this year, and when will students, parents and schools hear about July provision 2026?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I think Circular 0054/2019 circular was renamed, so I will revert to the Chair on that. As regards the summer programme, an announcement around that will be coming shortly.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Circular 0054/2019 was very straightforward in recent years. I believe it was just redated. Many schools are waiting on this and there are schools losing staff and teachers who are unsure of where they are going to be. Knowing that they could sub beyond 90 days would give many people certainty. I expect it has to issue, as I do not see how we are going to make up or magic up these teacher shortages. The sooner it can issue, the better it will be for all in the school community.

I thank the Minister for that. Next up is Deputy Cummins.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank the Minister and her officials for being here and for the document and outline of what thee Minister's priorities are.

I was disappointed to see, as Senator Tully has said, that youth work was not mentioned. Youth work organisations were happy to move with the Department of education, but the fears I had are coming into fruition when we come into the education committee and that is not seen as a priority.

I was a youth worker. The value of youth work has been expressed by the Minister, and I genuinely believe her, but that is an oversight. At some stage, she will need to come back to youth work.

I was also very disappointed to see that there was only line about the supports for survivors of historical residential abuse. A huge number of people contact me on a regular basis about that. As part of the Minister's remit, that should have been included in it.

There was also no mention of hot school meals. The report that this committee did was extensive. It took us months to do it. I thank the secretariat again.

There was no mention of our report about our visit to Finland to examine the education system there, or of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters's inclusive education report. That is disappointing. I hope that at another stage the Minister can come back to address that.

I have a number of questions, the first of which relates to DEIS plus. I am devastated for the schools in Dublin 8, 10 and 12, particularly Dublin 8 and 12, who have not gotten DEIS. For the life of me, I cannot understand it when reports are coming out left, right and centre to explain how disadvantaged the schools in those communities are. A recent report from Dr. Barra Roantree explained exactly what the situation is. The Minister does not need to give me the answer today because I have written to her to ask specifically about those schools and why they did not get DEIS plus. How come the schools around them were selected but they were not selected? They are within the 700 m rule. They did not get it. They are the same families going from primary school to secondary school. There are boys' schools, girls' schools, junior schools and senior schools. It is very disappointing. I have had huge correspondence from parents and school communities over the past while.

My second query is about the school completion programme, SCP, on which I worked. I am delighted to see it mentioned in there. My understanding is that the move, whatever it may be, has been pushed out further regarding governance and employment of SCP. I ask for an update on that.

Regarding reconfiguration, I do not understand why the full data was not given out. When that will be given out, will it be given to schools? What methodology will be used? Full sets of data would have prevented a lot of people guessing why only half of the data was given out.

On special education, I suppose this is the technical one. We have heard that there will be 7,860 students by 1 October. The Minister cannot give us the number for how many it will be when it reopens after 1 October. Will the buildings and staff be ready? I was concerned to hear the Minister say earlier to Deputy Coppinger that 75% are already in school. Just because they are in school does not mean it is an appropriate school place. Of that 75% who are in a school, is it an appropriate school place? They are not applying for a school place; they are applying for an appropriate school place. They are the technicalities regarding that. Is it 2,500 students who do not have an appropriate school for September? I am sure that everybody around here has been asked for the same thing.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am very happy to come back and engage with the committee on a number of issues. It is a huge brief and a huge Department. I will briefly go through some of the points the Deputy raised. Regarding survivors of abuse, we have the residential and industrial victims supports. Those applications have opened since 6 March. Five hundred applications have come in since mid-April. The Department has begun making payments for health and education supports to those survivors. Regarding the €646 million funding that I secured, part of that included €13 million for survivors. That was agreed last year.

On Finland and inclusive education, I will be very brief because I do not want to eat into the Deputy's time. This is the top priority for me. We need to get this right. That is why I welcome the input from the committee and it is why the forum is going to be so important with advocacy groups and key stakeholders. This is going to be co-designed. When we ask people about what their vision of inclusive education is, it is very different even among parents and advocacy groups. We need to work together to co-design this.

Regarding DEIS plus, with the 121 schools it is the largest ever. This is the first time this was done. These are schools that have huge educational disadvantage. It was based on data used across the country to make it fairer. The areas that we were looking at included areas of deprivation, where there are lone parents, high unemployment rates, high levels of Roma and Traveller enrolments within schools, children living in emergency accommodation and-----

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Was it all taken from the primary online database, POD, or the post-primary online database, P-POD?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The information was coming from the school enrolment data, including POD and P-POD, and from the Pobal HP deprivation index and other key indicators. The weighting was around lone parents, unemployment, unemployed families and areas of disadvantage-----

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Some schools do not collect that data. Will they now be able to update on the POD for the appeals system?

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I ask the Minister to be brief.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, they can. There is an appeals process now. They can do that. We can rerun the model as part of the appeals process. If they feel that, for example, ethnicity was not included in it, they will have to get the consent of parents involved. I will come back to the Deputy.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We will have another round of questions. Next up is Senator Curley.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Regarding new school builds, I raised with the Minister last week about the issue of Carrabane National School in east Galway. They are many years waiting for a new-build school. I have two questions. The first is around the tendering process. The second is around value for money. In relation to the tendering, tomorrow morning the sixth-class students in Carrabane National School will be taught in the dressing rooms of the local hurling club, nearly a full mile down the road. They are not going to be anywhere near their actual school campus. That is what is happening in Carrabane right now. It is an urgent situation. I do not know how we have got to this point. When a school has all its ducks in a row, what is an acceptable timeframe? In this case in January 2024, the tenders were opened up. We are now almost in May 2026. It is two and a half years later. Inflation is a constant issue. Unfortunately, like I warned, this week the school was informed that the builder has pulled out of the project. They are now looking at the second tenderer and trying to see if they can sort out the situation without having to go through a lengthy tender process again. What is an acceptable timeframe in that situation? Can we stand over almost €1 million since the project was first approved for a new build being spent on summer works programmes on a school that will not cost a whole lot more than €1 million to complete? Is that acceptable value to offer the public for their hard-earned taxpayers' money? Is it acceptable to say that we are going to sanction a school for a new build, and then we are going to spend almost the same amount of money keeping the old school open until we get through the lengthy red tape-laden process? I am really frustrated by this. The school is really angry. What is the Minister's stance on those two points?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Carrabane was included in the NDP as one of the 105 projects. It is a priority for us to make sure that goes to tender and construction. The Senator is even more familiar with this area, but because I am in the neighbouring consistency I know that there has been a history of false dawns over the years in relation to that school. That is a priority for my Department. I reassure the Senator.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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I apologise; I do not want to cut across the Minister. They are four months waiting simply for a letter of intent to be signed. They have gone through the entire tender process. It is all done. They literally need a piece of paper that says that they can build their school. That is all they need.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The Department is engaging with the school around the interim needs. I ask Ms Leonard to come in on this to answer some of the Senator's questions.

Ms Emma Leonard:

I am very happy to do that. Carrabane is one of the 105 projects on the prioritised list. It is an absolute priority for us. There have been procurement difficulties. It is still a live procurement process. The Senator will appreciate that I cannot go into too much detail on that. We are working it through. We are in touch with the design team and the school. We will work hand in glove with the school to progress this project. I will admit that it is not typical in terms of the length of time it is taking. That is because it can happen that there are procurement difficulties and challenges. That has happened in this case. We are also engaging with the school regarding some of its interim needs pending the delivery of the new school building. It remains a priority. It is very much part of the NDP.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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Regarding the almost €1 million that has been spent on this one individual school, as a Department can stand over that amount of money being spent on a school that has already been approved to go to a new build?

Ms Emma Leonard:

Our priority is to ensure that every child has a school place. It does take time for projects to move through the pipeline.

As I said, in this case there were some particular procurement issues-----

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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For 20 years.

Ms Emma Leonard:

-----that are not typical. We had to get an extension of planning and so on. There were a number of false dawns. Where interim works are needed we will engage with schools on that. Our priority is to ensure that the environment is safe and appropriate for the children learning in that school.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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When a school has done its level best to have all its ducks in a row, and then it goes two and a half years from the opening of a tender process to date where we have not yet seen a sod turned, I do not know if as a country we should stand over that and the amount of money we are wasting in the interim. That is my view, but I appreciate Ms Leonard's response.

I was contacted recently by Councillor Donna Phelan in Maynooth, County Kildare, about the assistive technology situation. Currently you have to go out for three tenders for assistive technology, which in her opinion is slowing down the system. She thinks it could be more standardised. Instead of going through lengthy tender processes again, can we just get one quote? Take the example of county councils across Ireland. You now only need one quote to get a housing adaptation grant, which moves projects speedily through the pipeline and keeps people in their homes. Something as simple as this could really speed up the level at which assistive technology can be secured for a student. Can I get a comment on that, and could we speed up the process?

Ms Emma Leonard:

I will let Ms Mannion speak on assistive technology.

Ms Martina Mannion:

We are conscious of trying to streamline the approach to assistive technology. We are doing a review of the scheme that will be completed in quarter 2 this year. We will streamline the application and make it child centred. We are looking to remove the diagnosis. As the Senator knows, we are focused on ensuring that those supports get out to children as quickly as possible. I reassure him in terms of the processes we have gone through, that in 2025 we spent €4.9 million supporting over 5,500 pupils. We have already supported 2,800 applications that have been received.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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When Ms Mannion says they are removing the diagnosis, does that mean the child will be granted the technology they may need on the school's recommendation?

Ms Martina Mannion:

We are trying to remove the requirement to have a formal report come through. The school will work through a needs-based process so it can ensure the needs of the child are met using the assistive technology funding.

Shane Curley (Fianna Fail)
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They are trusting the knowledge of the school on the ground.

Ms Martina Mannion:

It is to supplement the existing ICT support. That is the purpose, and we have engaged extensively with stakeholders.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for being here. I raise something that I also raised with her last week, which is the school building list. Boyne Community School in Trim, which is in my community, has been on that list for over 15 years. It is deeply frustrating and as it stands it is holding the school back. We have been through it, and I have asked the question already, but I am none the wiser about when it is going to progress. I know the Minister will not be able to answer that here, but why can we not have two school building lists? Senator Curley's school should be on a priority list and the Minister has taken the NDP schools. However, a school like mine, which was identified 15 years ago should be on a list that is worked through in the order that those schools go on that list. It is not about looking for extra funding. It is to split that funding so those schools will progress in a transparent way.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I know the Deputy raised this with me in the Dáil earlier this week. On schools for Meath, since 2020 we have invested €473.1 million in capital funding for schools in Meath. Those are 62 schools that have been upgraded either through provision of a new school building, a large-scale extension or the provision of modular accommodation. There are 13 schools in Meath under construction at the moment and another seven school projects will go to tender and they were part of it. I know it is no consolation to the school the Deputy is raising but this is the first tranche in the NDP. There are seven schools going to tender and construction in 2026 and 2027. This summer there are ten schools approved to undergo works as part of the climate action summer works scheme. There are 125 special classes which have been opened in Meath, of which 18 were sanctioned for September.

This is a general comment but also refers to the Deputy's school. For the first time, the Department is carrying out an energy and conditions survey on all of the school estate across the country. We will get a really good picture on the energy and the condition, and that will feed into the next prioritisation list as part of the national development plan. That work is ongoing. I do not know if that work has been carried out in the Deputy's school, but if it has not it will be done by the end of this year. All schools will have had that work carried out.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I will stick with the schools building projects. I was pleased to see the commitment in the Minister's response that there will be a special class in every school project going forward. Will there be the same commitment for a kitchen and a canteen to cater for the hot school meals?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I may bring in Ms Leonard in relation to that. The top priority is special education. We have all had experiences where a school is being designed and there has been a rescoping where we need to add extra special needs classes to those schools. When we visit many schools across the country, we see that they are state-of-the-art facilities when they are built. They are state-of-the-art school facilities for the modern age.

Ms Emma Leonard:

The challenge is balancing all of the different priorities. The Minister mentioned special education. In certain areas we have increased demographic change and the pressures that brings for additional school places. We have existing commitments towards the latter end of the NDP for a PE hall programme. We are also doing a lot through the climate action summer works on lab refurbishment. It is difficult to balance all of the different priorities and that is the reality of the programme. It is ambitious at €7.55 billion over five years but we have to manage all of the different priorities.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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When the Department is looking for planning for a new school or changes to an existing school, I have found in my area that it does not plan outside of the school for access and egress. I had an issue in 2019 with a new school in Kildalkey, County Meath. The condition was that the Department agree with the council the appropriate entry way to the school, such as the lighting and so on. The Department put forward a proposal and the council was not happy with it, but the council came under pressure to let the school open, and it did. We fought for approximately two and a half years after that to have it made safe. I understand we have a lot of schools that were there before busy roads, housing estates and that kind of thing. However, I do not think it is forgivable when it is a new school. Does the Department now, as par for the course, put together proper plans for access and egress?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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When I was in the Department of Transport I set up the Safe Routes to School programme, looking at urban and rural settings to make sure children can get to school safely, be that in secondary or primary, because we are all aware that not one size fits all. I come from a constituency that is both urban and rural. If it is outside the school grounds that is a matter for the local authority, but the Department works closely with local authorities on this issue. I know the Department of Transport and the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, will be rolling out the Safe Routes to School programme. Again, that is Green Schools and An Taisce working with the local authority and the school. I know that is a retrofitting project. The Deputy makes a valid point about ensuring that our young people can access school safely, be that walking, cycling or whatever.

Linda Nelson Murray (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the Minister and her officials. Ireland already spends near top European levels for a student, but the issue is how effectively that money is being used and where it goes. The Minister spoke about the additional funding secured by her and the Department five months into her appointment. It was in the region of €646 million. What will that be spent on? I also raised an issue in this committee a few months ago with the Department on male versus female primary school teachers. We learned that approximately 9% of teachers in primary schools are male, but when it comes to principals it is 70%.

On the day, the Department said it would be looked into in the future to see why females are not being promoted to the principal role and how we can encourage more males into primary school teaching.

I will pick up on what the Chair said about the bus service. I think I drive the Minister mad about the buses. I am a mammy who puts her two children on a bus in the morning. One of the Minister's advisers has been great on this. Only a small number of drivers drive for Bus Éireann, but the bus driver on the route to Kilmessan National School has been driving that bus for 20 years and I could show the Minister any number of texts to demonstrate how often the bus breaks down. With the investment in buses, I am appealing again - I know the Government is looking at it - for a new bus for her on that route. You do not get many bus drivers like Linda, the bus driver. She is incredible.

My last question is about guidance counsellors. Deputy Dempsey spoke about Boyne Community School. I was there last week with Deputy Dempsey at the school's culture day, which was fantastic. On the way out, I spoke to one of the guidance counsellors and asked her about her role in the school. When the Department was here before, we spoke about how it is an important role for guiding people to where they go after secondary school, but also for making sure their well-being is being looked after. It seems that some schools lack guidance counsellors. What is our approach to that? They are my questions.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator. The funding that was needed was to address a structural deficit and 86% of that budget in the Department goes to pay and pensions. That was a huge part of it. Other additional funding was needed, for example for survivors of abuse. The increased demand for special education was part of it, as was an increase in school transport demand, with 181,000 students availing of the school transport scheme and that is only increasing. To tail that into the Senator's question about the bus, she has raised it with me directly. Bus Éireann has committed to look at the condition of buses in her area and to review that. In general, as I am talking about school transport, Bus Éireann has increased the age limit for bus drivers to 72 for smaller eight-passenger vehicles. That is progress, moving in the right direction, particularly as we are all living longer.

When I went through Mary Immaculate College - I will visit it tomorrow, go back to my alma mater - the group was largely made up of women. There were some men. We need to look at ways to encourage more men, but also people from different backgrounds, into teaching. Today, the Minister, Deputy James Lawless, and I launched a new programme looking at attracting people into professions. It includes teachers from different cultural backgrounds. It is important that students can look up to role models who are teachers and see people from their background, which might be a different or diverse background, coming into the teaching profession. That is important as well.

As part of the DEIS plus programme, we are introducing career guidance counsellors to primary schools because evidence shows that, by the age of eight, young people are deciding what they will do, whether they will leave school and whether they will get a job. Therefore, that age-group is key and, as part of the DEIS plus scheme, that will be introduced. There are 972 guidance posts currently in the system. We have no guidance counsellors in special schools. That is something we need to look at and we need to be prioritising the transitions in special schools as well because young people need to feel empowered to realise their full potential, whatever that is. Two pilots are happening at the moment under the Dormant Accounts Fund. One is the WALK peer ability programme and the other is the transitions programme, which will be in all special schools next year. Career guidance in DEIS schools is important, as it is in special schools for people with disabilities. If we talk about inclusion, it means inclusion for everyone. We are starting. This is the road of travel. The Senator raised some good points and I look forward to working with her on them.

Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire. Sinn Féin has brought forward four Private Members' Bills on special education since the beginning of the Dáil term. The Minister knows where we stand on that and what our requests are. I look forward to working with her on that. I want to focus on something else for a second.

Bhí an-díomá orm nach raibh an Gaeloideachas luaite sa ráiteas tosaigh. I was disappointed nach raibh aon tagairt don - there was no mention of - Gaeloideachas. It is important for perhaps not as wide a cohort, but it is hugely important. Last year, Sinn Féin brought forward a Private Members' Bill on Gaeloideachas and the Government made a lot of amendments to it. It committed to the protection and promotion of Gaeilge and undertook to expand opportunities for students to attend Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholáistí. I have seen nothing but the opposite since our Bill was discussed. Children and their parents are regularly outside Leinster House campaigning for Gaelscoileanna. An Teachta O'Rourke had parents and children from Dunshaughlin here, where 24 children were looking for a place in a Gaelscoil and priority for additional places was given to the English-language school, when the demand was there.

I was at the launch of the Imeasc campaign on 22 April. The figures are stark. Eleven counties in the State do not have a Gaelcholáiste. Therefore the few children attending Gaelscoileanna have nowhere to progress to, and it gets even worse for third level education. Surveys show a widespread and consistent level of demand year on year. Some 23% of respondents would have chosen a local Gaelscoil and in the USI survey in 2019, 70% of all respondents said they would send their children to Gaelscoileanna. We have an ambitious sprioc de 20% - I say it in Irish so often - target that 20% of people in the public sector will be working trí mheán na Gaeilge. We will not reach that. In all my years as a teacher and Irish-language activist, I have always looked for someone to finally have the will to do better for Gaeloideachas. What steps has the Minister's Department taken and what steps will it take for Gaelscoileanna? The time is now. We really need someone to take this seriously.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Tá an Rialtas tiomanta do thacú leis an oideachas lánGhaeilge agus táimid ag iarraidh tuilleadh deiseanna a chur ar fáil do pháistí agus do dhaoine óga a gcuid oideachais a fháil trí Gaeilge. Sa pholasaí don oideachas lánGhaeilge lasmuigh den Gaeltacht, tá fís uaillmhianach leagtha amach againn go mbeidh oideachas lánGhaeilge ar ardchaighdeán ar fáil do gach uile dhuine i suíomhanna atá ionchuimsitheach agus ilchultúrtha. The Department invested €513 million between 2020 and the end of 2025 in school building projects in Irish-medium schools. A task force on models of provision of Irish-medium education was also established last November as a key action under the policy. I met that task force and it raised a number of concerns with me. I want the task force to work and come back to me with recommendations and I want to be able to assist it. We need to make sure the Irish language is accessible to all our young people. My door is open to suggestions around that. Overall, the number of Irish-medium schools has increased from 272 in 2000 to 302 in 2025. That is an increase of approximately 11%. I am open to suggestions on this. We value the importance of the Irish language and, to promote it, Gaelscoileanna and Gaelcholáistí-----

Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Sinn Féin's Private Members' Bill was fantastic. It was brought forward by Deputy Ó Snodaigh and his office. I would love to sit down with the Minister. It is full of suggestions. It is really important. We need someone who will take this on so I really hope we can work together on it. When does the Minister expect to see the outcomes of the task force?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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They are due to report, I think, by the end of this year.

Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. The Minister mentioned deiseanna do Ghaelscoileanna, Gaeloideachas agus an fís but again, they are kind of fluffy words. We really need to see action on that. I would really appreciate working with the Minister on this.

I have only got a minute left so I am going to move on to something that has been raised a couple of times, which is the difference in funding. Primary school special classes receive more funding for children with additional needs per child. I do not have the exact figures in front of me but when they progress to secondary school, the secondary schools do not get anything. Is there any talk of addressing that?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Is that capitation?

Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Sorry, yes.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am going to have to get the Deputy figures on that. Is that okay?

Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Okay.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry. I will come back to the Deputy directly afterwards in relation to that. If they are in a special school, normally-----

Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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They qualify for the funding at primary level and then when they move on to second level, the secondary schools do not get any funding. I am pretty sure it is at zero. I refer to special classes.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Special classes, sorry. The Deputy referred to special classes in primary and when they move to special classes in secondary school. I will come back to the Deputy on that detail. I am sorry; I thought the Deputy meant special schools.

Shónagh Ní Raghallaigh (Kildare South, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. I thank the Minister.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister and her officials very much for being here with us this evening. I will start with the buildings unit, as many others have. Nenagh Community National School went through a reconfiguration process a few years ago. It came under the patronage of Tipperary Education and Training Board, ETB, and it went from being a junior school to a full primary school. It is growing vertically in that next September will be the first year it has had a sixth class in that school. It has no room for that sixth class at the moment. It has nowhere to put them. I have raised this here with officials from the buildings unit previously. I have raised it in parliamentary questions. I have written to the Department. It is a complex site in that it is quite tight but it has a site next door that there is space on and the Department has recognised that, which is important. However, for September coming, I still cannot tell the principal, despite all of the conversations I am having here and the questions raised, where he will be able to put his sixth class.

Dealing with this with a principal, it is very easy to understand why so many principals find trying to get a building done or an answer to a school or classroom need so deeply frustrating. I personally find Nenagh Community National School's case deeply frustrating at the moment. I am asking for engagement with the buildings unit that will give this school an answer immediately. September and the school holidays are just around the corner, and we do not currently know where the sixth class will go in Nenagh Community National School in September.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. First of all, I will have the Department engage with the school in relation to that. I do not have the details myself but I will certainly have my officials reach out and engage directly with the school in regard to those accommodation issues.

For Tipperary North, since 2020, the Department has provided €178.9 million in capital funding for schools. Some 67 schools have been upgraded either through the provision of a new building, a large-scale extension or modular accommodation. There are eight school projects currently under construction in Tipperary. Another four projects will go to tender and construction this year and next year and there are 14 schools approved to undergo the summer works scheme. In addition, since 2020, we have 74 special classes that have opened in Tipperary, of which 14 were sanctioned for this coming September. Five of the 14 are in north Tipperary.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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On that answer, I got a lot of that information in the last representation I made for the school. That is good news. It absolutely is. I will not take from that at all. I have worked on some of those projects so I am very grateful but when I ask a question of the Department and that sort of answer comes back in writing, which I am supposed to forward to a school, it really does not do anything to help that school in particular. Realistically, we are looking at modular for September but we have been toing and froing on this modular permanent build for months and months now when there is only one answer, but they need it rapidly so they have somewhere to go in September. I appreciate the commitment to engagement.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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To give the background, I appreciate the frustration but I will have the Department engage directly with the school on that.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that. I want to move from Nenagh to Thurles next and that is from the buildings unit to DEIS status. Thurles is an educational town. It is quite a unique rural town in that there are two universities, four excellent secondary schools and four excellent primary schools as well as early years education. Education really is the heart of Thurles town and it is something the people of Thurles are really proud of. In the recent DEIS announcements, however, there is still no DEIS primary school in Thurles. It is very hard for some of the primary schools in the town but particularly local people in Thurles to understand how the data, statistics or measurements used could not prove they qualify for any form of DEIS status in their four schools. There was some good news for the Ursuline Primary School with the home-school-liaison position, and for Littleton as well. Councillor Sean Ryan has been working on that for years for Littleton school outside of Thurles. However, I have serious concerns around the fact that Thurles has yet to receive DEIS status for any of its primary schools. What sort of a review is possible? The Minister mentioned appeals previously. Can these schools in that case, where they have never had DEIS status, appeal anything at this moment in time? Will those schools be considered in the next year or two or at any stage for a further expansion of DEIS status to give the schools, school communities, teachers and the children of Thurles a chance to get that DEIS status, and the additional resources that come with it, which I believe they should have?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The appeals process is around schools that are in DEIS already and did not become DEIS plus. That is the appeals process. One school the Deputy mentioned got a home-school liaison as part of this. This was a pilot I initiated because I was aware that DEIS plus is for those in extremely disadvantaged areas and it is based on the data but that is not to say that there are not other schools out there that are not experiencing disadvantage. I know the tremendous work happening with school leaders, principals and teachers across the Deputy's constituency and the country in relation to this. That is why I initiated that pilot in recognition and to give them that home-school link. We all know the importance and value of that.

There will be periodic reviews around DEIS plus and the DEIS strategy in its totality. The strategy, as the Deputy knows, does not provide for a DEIS programme. It was specifically around those areas that needed those targeted supports. That reflects the key strategic objective to move away from the current system of in DEIS and out of DEIS. The goal, for me, is to develop a more agile resource allocation model so, wherever the need is, resources can be allocated to ensure schools receive the resources they need. I know it is a long-winded answer, but I absolutely appreciate there are schools that feel they are in a disadvantaged area, but this €48 million for DEIS plus was specifically to target those schools.

Ryan O'Meara (Tipperary North, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that, yes.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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However, I hear what the Deputy is saying.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I apologise for my hoarse voice. Continuing on the same lines, does the Minster have anything to say for schools that are not in the DEIS programme, but believe they should be? Is there a timeline for when she might review the current DEIS model?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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This particular strategy does not provide for an expansion of the DEIS programme but, as I said, what I want to do is move away from moving into DEIS out and look at support. I need to look at how that will be done over the years ahead. Demographics change. The students coming in and out of schools change. I do not like to use the word “improve”, but after the targeted supports that are put into a school, a wide range of supports are available for schools outside this, including partnership programmes that schools can engage with in the community, and increased capitation. It is about engaging and it is all based on the enrolment data provided by the schools on the primary online database, POD, and the post-primary online database, P-POD.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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That is all right. I will move on to special education. Are any of the 75% of the 7,860 who are already in school being considered for a special class? I presume they are notified to the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, on the basis of it not being an appropriate school placement, they feel it is not appropriate or they have a recommendation for somewhere else.

I know the Minister said the priority is for the children who are outside of that 75%. Does that mean nothing is being done for the 75% or how is that being treated?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The NCSE is engaging with all of those parents who have notified that need to it. It is working through that. As I said, the priority has to be for children coming into primary school who do not have a place, those moving from primary to secondary or post-primary education and those children who do not currently have a place at all, which could be due to moving to an area or a placement breaking down. The answer is that the NCSE is working with individual parents.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister have an idea of the overall number of special classes that will be needed for September? The Minister is well ahead of where she was previously, and I acknowledge that. There are 464 classes now but will 500 or 600 be needed? What is the Department aiming for at the minute, based on the numbers that are with the NCSE?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is the work that is being worked through with the NCSE. I have secured increased funding just recently for that. We will see how that evolves this year and into next year as well.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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On a side point, I presume the fact that 75% of the children are already in school is a feature of the Department having in place the 1 October deadline by which to notify the NCSE and, as such, we might not expect to see similar numbers in the system next year or the year after.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I do not know is the honest answer. I do not think anyone knows or if anyone has insight into that. The reason we had the 1 October date was to give the NCSE and the Department that earlier insight to be able to forward plan. You can see that with the numbers of classes that have been sanctioned so much earlier than previous years. We have sanctioned more than in previous years at this point in the year. It gives the building unit that foresight as well. Of those 7,860 children and young people, 7,000 have a diagnosis of autism.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I believe Virgin Media and RTÉ reported figures, based on an exchange during Priority Questions last week, that 2,300 or 2,400 children do not have a school place. I took it that this was a misunderstanding of the response and that the media were literally reporting that every child out of the 7,860 did not have a place. Are the media correct in reporting that 2,300 do not have an offer and, if not, what is the correct figure?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will bring Ms Mannion in on this.

Ms Martina Mannion:

As the Minister has said, it is not the case that there are thousands of children without a school place because 75% of that 7,860 are already in school. They are already in school and receiving an appropriate education. It is important to remember that in our mainstream provision, there are highly qualified teachers, over 12,500 SNAs and 15,000 special education teachers in mainstream education. All of those children are receiving an appropriate placement, and that is really important.

Budget 2026 provided for 3,000 new places. We have to add that in to the movement of about 2,600 places one would expect across the system as well. As the Minister has said, the additional funding she secured last week is providing sufficient additional funding for new places. What now needs to happen, as the Minister said, is for the NCSE to work that through individually with parents at a local level. The Deputy asked if these are people coming forward who would never have come forward before. He is right. He will remember from previous committee meetings that we will have said that the NCSE, in certain areas such as Dublin, would open a new special class and three or four of those six places would go to children who are not known to the NCSE. The huge benefit of the process we have put in place for September 2026 is that it gives us much greater clarity on those numbers. It is really important to say we are satisfied the work the NCSE is doing with parents will ensure places. Between the funding we have secured, the new places we have opened with the funding we got from the budget and the additional places we are putting in place now, we will be able to meet the needs of the children across the system in a variety of places.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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The Minister and her officials are most welcome. This engagement is welcome and we should do it more frequently, going forward. I acknowledge the increase in the funding provision of €90 million for additional SNAs. That gives security or assurance to existing SNAs who may have felt a bit threatened by the redeployment announcement.

None of us would be doing our job properly if we were not engaging or liaising with schools in our catchment area. I bring to the attention of the Minister a visit I made to Tuam Educate Together National School during the week when I met a number of staff. The school applied for DEIS status. Its demographics are identical to those of neighbouring schools. Archbishop McHale College is literally 400 m or 500 m up the road and Trinity Primary School is the same distance on the opposite side. Both those schools have DEIS status and Tuam Education Together school does not have it.

Ironically, I was thinking about other schools I have visited which are doing the same thing as other schools do that do not have new facilities. They are currently having to teach in hallways or corridors. The same thing is happening, albeit it is a different case in relation to the requirement for DEIS school, in Dunmore National School. I mentioned it before to the Minister and I credit her for coming back to me and visiting Trinity Primary School recently. Dunmore National School has a real need for a better school and better services and supports.

I thank the Minister for her emails keeping me informed about what is currently happening as regards Carrabane National School. I am aware that a contractor who was identified as the person who would ultimately do the job has withdrawn from the project. I am thinking about where we go from here. Obviously, a lot of things have happened in the last couple of months. There is no need for us to go into where we are at economically and every other way. This is a hypothetical question but it is relevant in the context of the way things have gone. Let us say that to get this project over the line, the next contractor on the list comes with what might be considered an unreasonable request for more funding to build because things have changed. Materials, for example, have become more expensive and labour, insurance and all of those costs have increased. Ms Leonard mentioned the Department and officials will work every way they can with the school. If there is an issue with funding due to the difference between what is set aside for the new school and what is now being demanded or required to build it, can I be confident that it will be delivered, notwithstanding the economic position we are in now versus a year or two years ago? I am trying to understand that.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy. The fact that Carrabane National School is on the national development plan as one of the 105 projects out of the many schools that are seeking to be on that list is a statement in itself from the Government. I am very aware of the demand for and importance of the new school in the area, even though it is in a neighbouring constituency. It is very important for me to say this a live procurement process that is under way so I cannot comment on the detail of that. The commitment is there to build that school and to work with the school on that.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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That is great. What about DEIS status for Tuam Educate Together school?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Schools that were not included in the DEIS plus programme can appeal until 25 May using an appeals process that opened on Monday. That is based on the enrolment data or the post-primary online database, P-POD, data of the school.

The weighting is based on employment status, whether children are in emergency accommodation and children's ethnic diversity. Traveller and Roma children will be a priority, and the HP deprivation index will be a key part.

Peter Roche (Galway East, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, but I have only 25 seconds left. I was stunned when I was informed there are 40 different nationalities in the school. I could not believe that and I was only five miles out the road. That will tell you. I cut the Minister short but I want her to be mindful of the urgency with regard to this.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Next up is Senator Gareth Scahill. We will have time for a second round of questions, probably with two minutes each. If members wish to make a second contribution, it will be a little bit quickfire.

Gareth Scahill (Fine Gael)
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Following on from Deputy Roche's comments about DEIS plus, I welcomed the DEIS plus status for St. Attracta's National School, Ballaghaderreen, and Scoil an Chroí Naofa, Ballinasloe. The communities associated with both are experiencing extreme disadvantage and deprivation, and extreme diversity. Their inclusion in the scheme is going to have a huge impact in the wider work we are doing in their areas with the local councillors. I acknowledge that.

To follow up on what Deputy Roche was saying about the appeals process, the process is open and there is potential scope for other schools that feel they were left out to appeal. That is welcome because many schools have been in touch with us all in relation to this.

The Minister mentioned progressing inclusion and inclusion practices to the greatest extent possible. It was great to have her in Roscommon on Friday to open two new special classes in Castlerea Community School and then go on to Curraghboy National School to open another. In between, we visited CBS Roscommon and saw what it is trying to do. It has really embraced inclusion with all of its students but obviously the school building needs a little bit of work.

Will there be a fast-track model allowing us to work with schools on modular buildings? Obviously, they all now have a good idea of what the intake will be in September, and that is going to have a big impact, but in many cases they will not have enough time to make spaces available. Leading on from that, and from inclusion, the Minister mentioned a forum she is setting up comprising representatives of education stakeholders and advocacy groups. It would be great if she could elaborate a little on that?

Let me refer to the other processes of engagement of the Minister. The national primary school survey had 200,000 responses. It is an opportunity for parents throughout the country to have their voices heard in shaping their children's education within their communities. I have engaged with very many parents. All parents with students in primary schools were engaged with. Their eircodes were used to make sure they were making the right representation and giving the right information for their areas. Even in the initial responses that we got, we see that 60% of parents wish to retain their school's denominational ethos. Seventy-three percent of parents of children in single-sex schools were open to coeducational schools. The Minister was giving parents the opportunity to shape the future of education in the community, and that is exactly what we want to see.

This goes back to the convention on education, an alternative way of engaging with people. Where does the Minister envisage the convention going and why is it important? How is she engaging more with young people and having their voices heard in shaping their education? Could she elaborate on a few of those points?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Senator. I will answer in no particular order. There was a huge response to the school survey. We published the general response coming back from primary schools. What we are going to do next month is give the schools themselves their own data related to what parents have said. I refer to the viewpoints, including on ethos, of parents of children in the schools, but also parents who intend to send their children to them. The data will be shared with each school and each will be given the time and space to analyse it. We will publish the data for everybody after that.

We see the numbers, demand and what is happening across Europe in relation to inclusive education. A huge amount of work has been done in this country around the consultation, and I want to continue that and the co-design. The forum I want to set up would be independently chaired. Its work on inclusive education would set out what the pathway on inclusive education will look like.

We already have considerable feedback from the EPSEN review. Some 30,000 people responded. A huge amount of work has been done on the SNA workforce development plan over the past two or three years with education stakeholders, advocacy groups and SNAs themselves, again setting out the vision because they are at the coalface working with the children. The advocacy groups, even outside the school setting, have a view and an input. The pathway will be co-designed with them. I want to get it set up because we have so much work done in this space. Someone mentioned Finland earlier. Ireland is working with Finland, in conjunction with the European Commission, on this.

I will move on quickly because I do not want to eat into the Senator's time. On the convention, this is the first time ever the voice of young people will have been heard. Thirty young people from the age of eight will be part of the convention and will be feeding into what our education system needs to look like, and that is going to feed into my long-term strategy within the Department of education.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minster. We will get a second round of questions in, with two minutes per member. I will have to keep the proceedings moving quickly to accommodate everyone. We could still have members coming from other meetings. We will begin with Senator Pauline Tully.

Pauline Tully (Sinn Fein)
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A school in my area applied for the second time for funding under the emergency works programme. Female staff and pupils are using the same toilets, and male staff have to exit the school building and use toilets in a nearby café. The school has been given the runaround. This needs to be addressed very quickly. I do not want to name the school here because of the situation in question but I can liaise with the Minister on it afterwards. The matter needs to be addressed as soon as possible. I have written to the Department about it and have not received a response yet.

My next point is on capitation. Let me give an example. A school that had 62 pupils in September 2024 had its capitation grant of this January based on that number. The June payment will be based on its September 2025 enrolment, which is 103. Its actual enrolment, however, is 126. It is a growing school. It is trying to pay bills with a capitation grant based on an enrolment of 62 pupils although the actual figure is 126. As well as affecting the paying of general bills like those for heat, light and insurance, this is affecting the school meals and the books grant. Is there any source of support for this school? I am sure it is not the only school in this position. There are pupils moving into the area and the capitation grant is not sufficient to meet all the costs.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy very much for that. I can engage with her privately on the issue of the emergency works.

With regard to schools' finances, the finance service unit, FSU, within the Department of education can work directly with schools if they are having trouble with increased costs. We help schools to get better contracts to meet energy bills.

As Senator Tully knows, capitation funding was increased in the last budget. We will continue to increase it over the years. It is based on the number of pupils from the year before, but if there are individual schools with issues around finances, we have a really good unit within the Department that can work closely with them, sometimes with advance capitation.

Joe Conway (Independent)
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The overall redress bill from the industrial school indemnity deal was about €1.5 billion. The total adjusted offers from the religious congregations are about €435 million, of which €245 million has been paid. This means that only about 16% of the total redress costs have been forthcoming, with the State, that is, the taxpayers, carrying the rest. That is significantly short of what was envisaged on foot of the Ryan report in 2009, which held that the Department of education was primarily responsible for abuse because of consistent failure to provide oversight of these institutions. I am just asking the Minister if her Department is satisfied with this state of affairs and what, if anything, is being done to redress it, pardon the pun?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will ask my officials if we have the figure in relation to that particular issue.

Ms Martina Mannion:

It is an important point on the funding that was received. The State has received the funding that was agreed and committed to at that point in time from those orders, accepting that the overall bill was almost €1 billion and €100 million has been provided by those religious orders. There are other important pieces, though. Regarding the supports that are otherwise being made available, the State has gone beyond that, if the Senator understands. The new survivors Act that we talked about recently and the €13 million that the Minister secured as part of the additional funding are for survivors.

It is important to mention a key message. The Supreme Court has found that the State did not have vicarious liability of sexual abuse in schools and that the responsibility appropriately lay with the people who were responsible for the abuse. That remains the position today. The ex gratia scheme, which I think the Senator is talking about, contains measures that were put in place separately by the State on foot of the European court case taken in a separate matter. The State has fulfilled its obligations in relation to that matter separately.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I have two quick issues. As others have raised, only one school in Dublin 15 got into DEIS plus. This is unfathomable. It is one of the youngest constituencies in the country with some of the most extreme deprivation. No secondary school from Dublin 15 got on the list. I have been contacted by St. Patrick's in Corduff. That school is paying hundreds of euro each week for well-being, dealing with children who are being groomed into crime because of historical local features. When I raised this matter before, the Minister said that the data was so advanced and brilliant that it could not factor in historical local features. If so, there is something wrong because people live in their local areas. I wanted to raise that. I just checked in the Oireachtas library and 64% of the population in Dublin West is white Irish. You could not get anywhere more diverse. It is actually unfathomable how few schools got in. I am delighted to hear people talking about two that got in from their area. The Department has created this super league where people are competing.

The Minister welcomed the ASTI ballot. With all due respect, the ASTI ballot is none of her business. She is actually interfering in unions at this point. She has introduced discrimination because the ASTI did not vote to accept, as she sees it, the leaving certificate reforms because members felt it was not safe. For example, the Minister has now barred people from applying for promotion. She is introducing discrimination in career progression for teachers who are members of the ASTI. That is unprecedented.

On another issue, 40% of schools' science work must now be done in science labs, but 74% of schools do not have lab space to do that. Half have one or two fume cupboards. Genuine safety issues were raised with the Minister about that and now she is penalising union members and pushing them to have another vote. This has to be called out in front of the Minister.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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If members want a response, they must make sure to give time for the Minister to respond.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Solidarity)
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I know, and I apologise. This shows that we need more time with the Minister.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Before we proceed, Minister, several members have been in touch during the week. I would like to suggest that we have quarterly meetings. It would be beneficial to the Minister, us and everyone else. What Deputy Coppinger says is true. There is a lot of stuff, yet we have not got near some of the areas. Gaeilge got a very short mention, special education, school transport. We appreciate that it is a massive Department, but would the Minister be able to commit to that? We will have to tick-tack on dates.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I am very happy to come back and engage with the committee. We can arrange a time again to engage.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I am up next. Of course, we have heard that some schools got good news but there are many schools that are on a kind of hamster wheel of correspondence with the Department in terms of school buildings. They are asked to provide a bit of information, maybe another bit of information and to go back to their consultants, and ultimately they are going no place.

I would just like to highlight three, if that is possible. Spanish Point secondary school got approval for a new building wing in 2021. There are 220 girls using four toilets. That is how constrained things are there at the moment. It is at bursting point. Scoil Mhichíl is a primary school in Cahermurphy, County Clare. I have been out there. Literacy support is being provided on the school stairs, with 14 children at a time sitting on different steps and the teacher down below in the hallway. She has to move as a class comes in and out to use the bathrooms. It is chaos. I have asked the Department to come down and look at it and I get these fudgy answers. The final school I want to mention is Ballynacally National School. Week after week, I am putting in parliamentary questions and corresponding with the Department. The school needs a modular building for September 2026 to have a class there, yet it has none of those. Will the Minister respond? I gave a note to her officials about 40 minutes ago in the hope that some of the files they have with them might enlighten us today.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We can come back to the Cathaoirleach directly on those, but just on the NDP, it is a plan out to 2030 and we just announced the first tranche. I understand. A number of schools right across the country have projects either under way or planned. We will have a prioritisation list as well, based on the energy and condition survey that the Department is carrying out across the country.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I appreciate that, but there is risk in getting a response at a later date. I got a response the other day. I fed it into my laptop and saw it was a copy and paste of a response about some school in Galway that Deputy Roche raised. It just had the name changed. We need better detail back on these. I am out of time, but when responding to Deputies here of any party or none, the replies have to give some detail.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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In relation to building projects, I will endeavour to do something. It is the stage that the school is at in the process, namely, stage 1, stage 2a or stage 2b. It is to get that clarity around where these projects are at. I will endeavour to try. For example, if a school is at stage 2a, the period to get to stage 2b could be a year or 18 months because it is a very technical process. Sometimes, the lag is not because nothing is happening but because work is happening behind the scenes, sometimes with the patron or whatever.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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That is not how the schools would see it, Minister. That is why we bring these cases in here.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Not every school but I will endeavour to provide more information on it.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I asked the Minister loads of questions at the beginning. There are two that I am looking for answers to specifically. The first is about the school completion programme and the Government's employment move. The second is about reconfiguration. How will that work and is the Minister aware of what the data said for the preschool parents who answered that survey? How will that data be used? I apologise for leaving in the middle of the meeting. I have three groups in and I have to go out to them.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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No problem. Does the Deputy's question on the reconfiguration have to do with the primary school survey?

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Yes. It has to do with the preschool answers and what the results were.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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On the primary school survey, all of the schools will get their own individual data next month. As part of that, they will be able to see the parents of the preschoolers and what their views are. That breakdown will be provided.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Will that data only be available to the school or will it be available to everybody?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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It will be a school-specific report and that will be available to the school. The school needs to have time to absorb it and take in the results. Then, it will be published.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Okay. What about the school completion programme?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There is ongoing engagement with the ETBs about the governance structure for the school completion programme.

The priority is a new employment framework for workers and co-ordinators. Good progress is being made-----

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Is there a timeline?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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-----and a full project is under way. The timeline is into next year.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Whatever the decision, the project was supposed to be completed by September 2026. I have heard that the project will not be completed this September but the September after that.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I will keep in contact with the Deputy. There is a huge amount of work happening and good progress has been made. It is about getting it right, but I accept the urgency of it-----

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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I know.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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-----from the Deputy's point of view as well.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Since 2013, we have heard that there has been good progress. It is a really long period of progress if the work is still happening 13 years later.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There is a huge amount of engagement. With the ETBs, it is a very engaged process, which is a positive.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
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Yes.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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We need to get the outcome right. The ETBs would probably concur with that.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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I raised the case of Dunboyne junior and senior national schools with the Minister during priority questions last week. Will the Minister explain the process for the Department-led prioritisation that is going to happen? I have heard about the energy review of buildings and that there will be engagement with the patron bodies. I have a number of cases but what can individual schools expect?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Deputy mean the next tranche of the NDP?

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Exactly.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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The energy and condition survey will be a key part of the reprioritisation list. Demographics in an area will be looked at. I am speaking in general about numbers increasing in a particular area, including commuter belts.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There are situations around the country where one school in an area might have increasing numbers coming in but two other schools in the same area do not.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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When is the next tranche?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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That is the question that everyone is asking. At the moment, we have €1.6 billion for schools to go to tender and construction this year and next year. The next tranche will be after that but the work happens now with the patrons and schools, looking at all of those issues.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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When will the Minister be making a decision on what the priority cases are?

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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I cannot give the Deputy a date for that. At the moment, 1,000 schools are under construction. There is a huge amount of work under way. Members will have heard of other examples here today of procurement processes being particularly difficult.

Darren O'Rourke (Meath East, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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A lot of other work must be ironed out. but that other work on the reprioritisation for the next tranche is happening at the same time. There is huge amount of work with patrons, schools and the Department in relation to that.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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We are finished with questions, so I will make a few general points. Deputy Coppinger raised the issue of DEIS. We could all have got into that discussion because we all have a similar experience. Based on what we have heard here this evening, I think this committee would benefit from receiving an explanatory note on DEIS in the next few days. We understood that DEIS plus was an announcement in its own right, but what I think we have heard this evening is that we should not expect to hear any more announcements on DEIS. I also heard that things were improving in schools and there were internal and external structures. Members who represent constituencies, Senators and people from schools who tuned in would have expected that DEIS plus was one set of announcements and that there would be a DEIS review and a mechanism. Indeed, many were enthused by the fact that DEIS plus pulled in bodies of evidence and statistics that were never looked at before. It looked very inspiring, but now it looks like there will be no more. We got some answers to various questions but this issue matters to all of us. We would love a note on where the Minister sees mainstream DEIS, namely, bands 1 and 2, going. We know what DEIS plus is. That is welcome but there is not enough of it.

Everyone here has received a lot of queries on school building projects. I understand that the Minister cannot give the entire details of everything.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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There are 4,000 schools.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I fully appreciate that. Increasingly, though, we are receiving very similar answers through parliamentary questions and various other correspondence. A little bit of clarity is all we seek. I respect that there are associated constraints. I appreciate that a lot of queries have been thrown at the Minister this evening and it is a massive workload, and we thank her for all she is doing, but if she is reverting to us, give us something that is helpful or clarifies the situation.

I sincerely thank the Minister and all of her officials. Over many meetings, the officials have been very good in helping this committee with its work. They carry in big folders, which shows just a snippet of what they are doing. We appreciate all of it. We appreciate the Minister's engagement here this evening. On behalf of the committee, I thank everyone. We need more of these meetings and I hope that the Minister can tick-tack with the secretariat to arrange same.

Hildegarde Naughton (Galway West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Cathal Crowe (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all of the secretariat and the technical team here in the room. The meeting now stands adjourned until Wednesday, 6 May, when we will met at 12.30 p.m. in private session, followed by public session.