Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Apologies have been received from Senator Pauline Tully.

Everyone is welcome to the meeting and I ask those attending remotely to mute themselves when not contributing so that we do not pick up any background noise or feedback. As usual, I remind all of those in attendance to ensure that their mobile phones are on silent mode or switched off.

Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. As the witnesses are in the precincts of Leinster House, they are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentation they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if the witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person or entity outside of the Houses or an official of the Houses either by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable.

On the agenda for today's meeting is our engagement with the Minister on the work of the committee. From the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, we are joined by the Minister, Deputy James Lawless, Mr. Paul Lemass, assistant secretary, head of capital and corporate division, Mr. David Keating, principal officer, research, policy and programmes unit, Ms Emma Kinsella, principal officer, further education and training, FET, strategy and reform unit, and Mr. John O'Farrell, assistant principal officer in the apprenticeships unit. They are all very welcome to today’s committee meeting.

I now call the Minister to make his opening statement. He has five minutes.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Ar dtús, gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach agus le baill an choiste as an gcuireadh anseo inniu.

I first gave a general presentation to the committee in June when I outlined the priorities I wanted to achieve during my term as Minister for Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. Today, I propose to give an update on some of my key achievements in that time and speak to the matters the committee has identified as being of particular interest to it.

I will begin with some of the highlights. I will run through some of the achievements on slides here. The National Training Fund, NTF, surplus has been unlocked. I thank the committee for its assistance with that. That was very important legislation that we put through the Houses last year, with the assistance of the committee, to make sure it was passed by year’s end. It has been signed into law by the President. This means we now have access to the NTF, which we are using for multiple purposes that I might spell out later. I want to acknowledge the committee’s assistance in getting that through the Houses.

The national development plan, NDP, is a key funding envelope for capital programmes that includes all of our buildings, campuses, real estate, and new labs and libraries as well as the capital investment into research and innovation, which is critical to our knowledge economy and Ireland’s success story in that regard. We secured €4.55 billion for the Department for the term ahead, which is very significant and ranks among the top five or six Departments across the board as a capital envelope.

The technological university, TU, professorships comprised a key deliverable that I set out to work towards. It is also a programme for Government commitment. I am pleased to advise the committee that has now been met. I secured Cabinet approval in December for the technological universities to roll out professorships. They have 55 professors approved. They are in the process of recruitment and hiring those. That was an essential delivery mechanism for the TUs to take their places as universities because it enables them to be research intensive, secure regulatory approval for professional courses like veterinary, pharmacy and medicine, etc., all of which they are now embarking on. It was a key step in having that academic leadership in the universities. I am really pleased to have met that milestone.

Apprenticeships are key to our skills economy and skills landscape. There is €410 million in the current year. That is record investment in apprenticeships. We are continuing to roll out new apprenticeships. Last week, I introduced what is called the business and operations apprenticeship, which is an apprenticeship within the Civil Service. It is the first of its kind. I think we are now up to 82 different apprenticeship courses, which are available through different ways.

Regarding the figure of 1,100 places across healthcare, we are all aware of the challenge in training and producing the number of doctors, medics, midwives, nurses, therapists, occupational therapists, speech and language therapists and educational psychologists. There is a number of professions where we have identified a whole-of-government ambition to improve services. Where my Department comes in is in training more professionals to be in the system. We have increased the number of places available by 1,100 across a number of those key disciplines. What is interesting and helpful about these is that rather than just replicating existing provision elsewhere, the new courses are offering a complementary and different service. In Galway, for example, the new medical programme is in rural practice. The Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, RCSI, has a proposal with me at the moment on community care GP practice. Those are two examples. Atlantic Technological University, ATU, and South East Technological University, SETU, will be commencing veterinary courses from this September, focusing on large animal rural practice as well so that it is not just rinse and repeat of what is already on offer. It is actually providing more places but with a different focus within those places so that we can broaden their scope.

There is a landmark achievement as regards the €750 million INSPIRE research programme. That is akin to the former programme for research in third level institutions, PRTLI, programme rolled out by the Government of the early 2000s. It was pivotal and instrumental to our success in the knowledge economy and in terms of academic leadership and Ireland having the opportunity to literally be world leading. I was in the Tyndall National Institute in Cork last Saturday morning with the Taoiseach where we launched the new Tyndall strategic plan. Tyndall is an institute that makes semiconductors, wafer-thin technology, photonics, magnetic storage and all the technologies that we need for the digital revolution that the world is currently engaged in and also for achieving digital sovereignty. We are producing these technologies in Europe under the chips Act, which is very important, given the change in geopolitics in the world. The first INSPIRE dividend was invested into Tyndall - it was a €100 million investment – and it will allow the institute to go from strength to strength and continue to be world class.

Some €1 billion comes from the Horizon Europe drawdown. We have access to Horizon funding as part of the European Union. I am engaged in discussions on the new Horizon programme. When we take the Presidency, I will be chairing those discussions on behalf of the State. We have a great opportunity to increase that footprint but even before we get to the new Horizon programme, we surpassed the €1 billion drawdown mark under the existing programme just recently. We are aiming to get another significant drawdown from that in the remaining two years of the current programme. I have spoken to the Enterprise Ireland in particular, as well as the IDA, on indigenous SMEs. It is great to have funding for researchers and academics – that is a key part of our proposition – but we really need to make sure it is translated into commercial applications as well. There is an opportunity to put together an action plan to assist SMEs to avail of and draw down Horizon funding so that we really see it benefiting us across the board.

Last but by no means least, I wish to highlight the student supports. The headline figure is the €500 permanent cut to fees. We all know there were temporary cuts in the past. While they were very welcome, they were not budgeted from one year to the next. They expired at the end of that particular budgetary year. For the first time, we have it baked into the Estimates year in, year out so that the €500 student fee cut is there to stay, as well as a number of other student supports.

I will now turn to some of the issues flagged by the committee as being of particular interest. Student accommodation is a hugely important area. I firmly believe that to enable the college experience, you must have students on campus. Hybrid, blended and all those learning formats are useful as an alternative but they should never become the default. College students should be able to be on campus, in college, not only to take up their classes but also for all the networking, societies and broader educational experience that go with being a student. Student accommodation is a key enabler of that. We have identified 42,000 beds as being needed over the term ahead. I want to stress that this does not mean that we need 42,000 beds right now. It means that, over the next ten years, we expect we will need 42,000 beds to be available as the numbers grow. There is a demographic bubble coming through third level at the moment. It was in secondary schools for the last five or six years and is now reaching the universities. We have delivered 16,000 new beds already but 42,000 is the central pillar of the new strategy. There have been a number of reforms in that regard, including cutting the VAT from 13.5% to 9% on new apartments. Every student accommodation build is effectively an apartment block. Typically, the student accommodation blocks have 200, 300 or 400 units, so they are a significant undertaking. The VAT cut has assisted there.

We have a new programme whereby we are working with the traditional universities and the technological universities to identify land banks and sites and ask whether those land banks are suitable and available. If a land bank is suitable and available, we then have to ask whether we can partner with the private sector in certain cases to see if we can roll it out in such a way that the State retains ownership of the property in the medium to long term, whether the private sector should be invited to come in and partner in the short term to build out the development and, ultimately, whether the State gains the property, the students gain the accommodation and the college involved is enabled to enter into what we call a nominations agreement. That way, it can book out a certain number of beds within the development - probably all, but certainly a significant quantity. That also goes to technological university borrowing. One of the programme for Government objectives is that we would enable TUs to borrow. They can now do that using this mechanism, which we have signed off with the Departments of Finance and public expenditure and reform in order to ensure that it was stacking up from the point of view of the State's balance sheet. There is a technical consideration, but we have got that done.

In addition, we are providing significant supports in terms of affordability, that is, putting money into students' pockets to pay their rent. We certainly want to scale up the supply, but we also want to help students to be able to afford accommodation. There is €176 million in additional funding for student supports available now. That is as well as the likes of the rent tax credit, so students or their families, whoever is paying the rent, can get back up to €2,000 per year per household in rent tax credits against their rent expenses. There are a number of things. There are also things like rent a room, which we might get into over the course of the debate, and other matters. Some 30,000 students are benefiting immediately from budget 2026 measures in terms of SUSI increases, and they were targeted particularly at the non-adjacent categories, that is, people living away from college who have to travel that bit further.

I will speak about apprenticeships. I thank the committee. I have read its report. It is excellent. It is a really valuable contribution to the policy domain, and I thank the committee for taking such an interest in the topic. I know members had a significant engagement with the witnesses on it. That is very helpful. We went through it with my officials afterwards and made sure that all the policy objectives I am pursuing in the Department are aligned to the committee's inputs on that. I acknowledge the significant body of work the committee did on that.

Apprenticeships, as the committee has noted in its report, are absolutely key to delivering the national missions we all want to achieve in the coming years, whether it is our transit, our metro, our DART, our railways, our roads, whether it is our energy, building out the grid, building out the capacity to work towards energy independence, ultimately, but certainly towards a stable grid and renewable energy proposition, whether it is our housing needs, the targets we want to meet there, accommodation, or the digital economy and digitalisation. There are a significant number of apprenticeships outside the trades now, in those more tech areas. Our apprenticeship population is now at 31,500, which is almost a 60% increase on just five years ago, so there is a very significant continued growth in registrations. We are at 9,500 annual registrations now per year. The target in the programme for Government is 12,500 by 2030, so we are making significant progress towards that.

Does the Chair want me to stop?

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are over time, and I am very conscious that-----

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. Questions.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----we have a full house of members today.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hate to stop the Minister in full flow.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I can speak to the other items in response to the questions.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have the opening statement and the presentation.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Go hiontach.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not want to cut the Minister off too much, but I will call on our first speaker. Go raibh maith agat, a Aire.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for coming in. I welcome the approval for draft legislation to enable the strategic partnership between Dundalk and Queen's University. That is very welcome in the context of an all-island strategy and the unlocking of the NTF moneys. Last night, however, as Mr. Paul Lemass will tell the Minister, we attended the housing committee on the topic of student accommodation. We met with students' unions afterwards and they are not happy with it. They do not see any certainty in this. There are still questions that cannot be answered. They do not even know how much the rent will be. One interesting thing that came out through the RTB was when there was an issue with DCU in terms of service charges, which caused protests. If your service charges are included in the rent, they cannot be separated, but if it is separated from the beginning, you can then leave the rents affordable but raise their service charges so high that it becomes unaffordable. Is there protection put in place to ensure that will not happen with the new student accommodation? It is a concern I realised only last night after talking to the RTB. Even when the lease ends, am I right in saying there is an offer of 9% VAT on sale? Can they therefore sell these on afterwards? Is that what that is, or am I reading that wrong? Even when we do talk about the leases ending and the properties being handed back, we do not even know what state they are going to be in. If you are an investor and you know you will have it for 30 years, in the past five years. you are really not going to invest in it because you are in it to make money, so we do not know if the taxpayer will then be left with a big bill to bring these up to standard.

The security for digs is a massive issue for students. We have gone through the housing committee with the digs legislation. They are not happy with the fact that it is just a suggested lease. That does not protect both students and landlords, and there needs to be something. Given the fact that they are getting €14,000 tax-free on this, surely there should be some obligations on this. Students last night were saying they are still struggling with affordability even with the help of SUSI. They are just not happy.

I know the Minister did not get to the section of his opening statement on adult education, but could he just meet with them even just to discuss everything they are looking for? That way, they can bring their case forward to him.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There were a few of things there. I will try to cover them all. To pick up the security for digs, which the Deputy mentioned, I meet students' unions all the time as well. I meet not only with Aontas na Mac Léinn in Éirinn, AMLÉ, but also the individual student unions at the different colleges when I visit them. I invite them up here regularly as well and I really value their inputs and their submissions. They have very interesting things to say and I take them on board. Before the last budget I met a number of them and some of those matters fed into if not last year's budget then preparations I am making for policy initiatives in this year's budget. Obviously, there is a long tail in terms of getting things costed and figured out, but every meeting is valuable and feeds into what I am trying to do. Their voices are so important. I met with students, including representatives of AMLÉ, just last week. We had an event in Portlaoise where we went through the cost of college and sounded it out, we had a number of workshops and I went across the different tables in the room meeting students, apprentices and people involved at the coal face, including every kind of tutor and lecturer. That was really valuable. I do that all the time.

Digs come under the rent-a-room scheme. The digs arrangement is a very traditional one. It has been there for decades. It is one that the Department has attempted to reboot to some extent in recent years with some significant success. The number of digs beds or rent-a-room beds available increased from 2,000 to 5,000 over the space of three years, I think over the past three years, which is a significant increase, thanks to promotional campaigns and to working with colleges, students' unions and homeowners to say this is an option and people may wish to avail of it, including empty nesters, people whose children have grown up and left, and people who have maybe spare bedrooms in university towns. Maynooth, in my constituency, is an example, but right around the country every university town has those kinds of houses where there are a few spare rooms, and it seems to make sense for both student and householder.

We have a licence agreement which we recommend and which has been drawn up by my Department. It is available on the Department website and would have propagated out through the universities. We cannot mandate the householder to enter into it. I think they should, and I have asked the universities in circumstances where they are promoting or advertising a property to ensure that it is availing of the licence agreement. That is a reasonable step. If we are going to be involved in showcasing of property or housing or bringing it to the attention of a potential tenant or student, we should at a minimum say, "You can subscribe to the licence agreement that my Department has drafted." That is a piece of work that is ongoing at the moment. The licence agreement is flexible, so it is between the two parties, whether they want to stay at weekends or not stay at weekends, how they want to operate, whether it includes meals or does not. All these things can be tweaked within the agreement in order that they come to a mutually satisfactory arrangement and then they can sign up to it and off they go. I think that is reasonable.

The VAT cut is intended to stimulate growth. Apartment building is very expensive because it is a significant undertaking. These are 400-bed units. They cost multiple hundreds of millions. They are not like traditionally built housing estates where you build six houses and maybe sell them and build another six in the way it was traditionally done. These need hundreds of millions of upfront moneys. They can be very difficult to secure for investors etc., and the VAT cut makes the viability of the proposition a little more attractive as to how they do that. Could they be sold to somebody else? They probably could but they would have to remain available for student accommodation. In a way, it does not matter what entity owns it on the title deeds or in the registry of deeds. What actually matters is whether it is available to the college for student accommodation at the agreed rates. If the college enters into a nominations agreement, which it would have to do with any beds being built out on campus lands, then it is student accommodation.

Of course, one provider of student accommodation is free to sell it to another provider but there is an agreement attaching to the property that it is booked out for beds for students in whatever university it happens to be, so I do not see that as a concern. It is quite possible it could happen but it should have no effect on the students within that. It is normal. If we look at any of the student accommodation residences around the country at the moment, they can be bought or sold every day. It does not really matter and it is true of anywhere that any of us are living in, if renting. That is a normal part of life.

In terms of the maintenance, the proposition is that the private sector would take on the risk and expense of developing the property but at the end, it reverts to the State. The important asset there is the land. The land remains the property of the State. I take the Deputy's point that maybe after several years it may not be in the same condition but the same can be said for all of our college buildings. I have been in practically every college in Ireland at this stage. Some buildings are new and spick and span and some are from the 1960s or even older. There are some historic buildings, too, and there are different degrees of quality and condition but, ultimately, the asset we want to safeguard for the State is the land or the campus, that reverts with the property. In the public-private partnership bundles that we have done for campus facilities other than accommodation, like lecture halls, laboratories and so on, there is an obligation on the developer to maintain the property as well, to the end. There is a reasonable degree of maintenance going on all of the time. Again, it is no different than any other properties and, naturally, they will age over time. Maybe after 60 years, the right thing to do is to actually refurbish anyway. It would not be implausible to suggest that would be a reasonable thing to do in any case.

On the adult educators issue, for the record, I have met them. The Deputy said that I should meet them but I have already met them.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Has the Minister met all of them?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I met the group. Just to be clear, they are not a representative group. The trade union of which they are members does not represent them. That is to say, the trade union of which the adult educators are members has engaged with my Department extensively and has agreed to the new grade being rolled out, but there is a subgroup within the trade union that has gone out on its own. I have met that subgroup as well. I have also met the parents union.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire agus leis an bhfoireann ar fad atá anseo. Ag cruinniú de chuid an chomhchoiste seo cúpla seachtain ó shín, bhí dreamanna difriúla os ár gcomhair, a number of different groups, atá ag iarraidh níos mó deiseanna a thabhairt do scoláirí a gcuid staidéar a dhéanamh trí mheán na Gaeilge sna hinstitiúidí tríú leibhéal. Less than 1% of our students at third level study through Irish. That falls from around 8% at primary school, which itself is quite low. I recall that the Minister told me previously that a research body or organisation within his Department had been established to review this or to look at it. Has there been any progress on that?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Something that I have set out as an objective under my Ministry is that we would support an teanga more substantially. It is important to differentiate, as I did in a number of Dáil contributions, between the provision of education about Irish, an cultúr, an cheol, an teanga, and so on and education through the medium of Irish for every subject. It is important that we do both but what Deputy Connolly and others rightly advocate for is the delivery of education through the medium of Irish. I have tasked a team within my Department to work on that and try to improve the offering that is there. We are below where we should be coming into this but that is a piece of work that I have commenced in the Department.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Great. There is a group working on that right now.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. I do not have an update for the Deputy today as to where the group is with it, but I have tasked a team with that.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is no problem. It might be something on which the Minister might revert to us.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. Cinnte.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister mentioned in his presentation the increase in the number of places for the health and social care professions. Last year, there were an additional 320 places across a whole range of disciplines and occupational therapy in Galway was one of them. Are we building on that or have we scope to build on it in the next or subsequent academic years, given the demand that still exists for those professions?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely. We have added 1,100 places to date and I want to continue doing more. Very recently, I launched a call for expressions of interest through the Higher Education Authority, HEA. I have asked the HEA, as the relevant authority, to go out to the colleges and ask them whether they are in a position to ramp up the provision of a number of identified disciplines. The first round last September, which was very successful, involved asking colleges that already had medical schools, nursing or whatever schools if they could take more students into their courses. They responded quite well and we got another 341 students through that. We are now doing a second round. UCD has a rural medicine course and pharmacy has been added there, too. ATU was mentioned in the context of veterinary courses and so on. The expression of interest call that is out at the moment is asking if we can do more. Do the colleges that do not currently have a school of medicine, for example, want to set one up? If they do, we will support them in doing that. That is under way.

One of the challenges was securing placements in the healthcare area. For colleges to embark on a new course, they need to be assured that when it comes to the appropriate stage of training, student placements in a hospital, nursing home or other healthcare setting will be available. I have worked extensively with the HSE. I want to thank Mr. Bernard Gloster. He has stepped back from the role now, but he was very helpful. I also want to put on record my thanks to the Minister for Health, who was also very helpful in working with me on that. We now have a section within the call for expressions of interest guaranteeing placements for students embarking on these courses. That was a really important step to get this over the line. That call for expressions of interest is out with the colleges at the moment and we will see, when they respond, what they can do.

The Deputy mentioned the social care aspect of this. He might be interested to know that there is a new social care apprenticeship being developed through MTU. I am also looking at the role of apprenticeships and recognition of prior learning. In situations where people have some life experience or have performed a relevant role, professionally or in the community, can they enter the system further along rather than starting at day 1? Can they be recognised and jump in midway? We have a number of courses and apprenticeships, including the healthcare assistant apprenticeship, and we are considering other ways, perhaps through the education and training boards, ETBs, to broaden the access points.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To go back to the student accommodation plan, while I might not say there is disappointment, there is a sense that a programme similar to the short-term activation programme could have been included.

I note that one of the proposals in the plan is that there would be site servicing done. I seek clarity on that. Is it our desire that this would be done by the institutions themselves or by the Department?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It will be done with departmental funding but through the vehicle of the National Development Finance Agency, NDFA. The NDFA is a technical arm of the Government that manages the State's books, to put it simply. It would assist the likes of housing missions as well. The NDFA comprises financiers and people who effectively work in the Department of Finance, but as a State agency, it is available to all Departments. I make the money available through the Department and that is managed out through the NDFA and the colleges. Ultimately, if a college comes to me or the team and says that it has a site ready to go and that it knows there is interest, we can do a site survey. If the college is good to go, that is great. If there are some issues, we will tease them out. We will do a site survey and determine if there are water mains issues, road access issues or other issues that might require the involvement of the local council. We will work with them on that and, where needed, we will fund that.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is there a budget for that?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The presentation made reference to a budget of €176 million under pillar 2 on affordability. Is that it?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is actually a separate figure. That goes to student supports. That is the cost of the extra grants and so on that I am paying out, but there is a similar quantum available for site servicing.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A similar amount. Very good.

I thank the Minister for his complimentary remarks about the work we did on apprenticeships. It was really beneficial. There are a number of things that I would stress from that work, one being the participation of State agencies in employing apprentices. We really need to push that and stress its importance. Does the Department have any plans or mechanisms in place to do that?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is a really good point and is something that I would like to see develop. In fact, I would go further and say that I would like to see, as part of the public procurement framework, contractors bidding for large State projects being required to have a certain number of apprentices on their books. That would be very reasonable and is something that I have asked my team to look at. There may be issues with regard to EU procurement rules but there are always ways around these things. Where there is a will, there is a way. That is my attitude. I have asked that it be looked at.

The other point I would make is that there is a public sector apprenticeship programme up and running. We are trying to encourage Departments to take on apprentices. I have apprentices within my own Department, for example, and we are trying to encourage other State agencies and Departments to take on apprentices, too.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the point. That was one area that was not very successful in terms of the ambition in the last apprenticeship plan.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I agree.

John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is important to pursue that.

My last question relates to the Traveller apprenticeship incentivisation programme. Will we see that placed on a permanent footing and fully funded by the Department into the future? Representatives of the Irish Traveller Movement presented to the committee. They feel that it is a very successful programme. There is great potential in it and they want it to expand.

It is only a pilot programme. Will it become a permanent feature of the new apprenticeship plan?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will take that away. I met representatives of Pavee Point recently and had a good discussion with them. Traveller groups were represented at the meeting I mentioned in Portlaoise last week. They outlined their experiences, the challenges they face and what we can do to support them. I agree that the Traveller incentive apprenticeship programme has been a really good initiative. I will certainly make a note of that and see whether we can look at doing it on a more permanent basis.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister and his officials. I will be brief in order to give the Minister an opportunity to comment on certain matters, particularly as he did not get to go through his full opening statement. The heading on the final slide is "Adult education - contracts of employment". We had the local training initiative people here last week, and we gave them a commitment that we would raise with the Minister the issues they raised with us. To say that there was frustration among them when it comes to their remuneration, contracts, terms and conditions and so on would be an understatement. I will leave it at that and give the Minister an opportunity to respond.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the local training initiative, and I might cover community training centres, CTCs, in this as well, and I know the adult educators are out there, there is a number of different representative organisations within the auspices of my Department. I think I have six different trade unions that I meet with regularly covering the different bodies and quite a diverse group within the Department's spectrum. I mentioned earlier to Deputy McGettigan that I did meet the adult educators group. They are a sort of subgroup, not formally recognised by the trade union, but they exist. I have met them and had a good engagement with them. I think Deputy Cummins was involved in facilitating that as well. I did meet that group at the time. Of course, I have also met the parent group and all the trade unions that are involved in the sector.

The Senator mentioned the local training initiatives. There is an offer available to them. I am aware they are involved in pay talks at the moment and are involved in negotiation with my officials. I have instructed my officials to make an offer of a 7% pay rise to them. That is out there at the moment and we are awaiting their response to that. I hope that might find favour. In the event that it does not, however, I have instructed my officials to direct them to the industrial relations machinery - in other words, the WRC - to see if they can engage further there and to see what agreement can be reached.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They would have had issues - it was only last week - as to who even pays that and who gets the 7% or pays it to them. The whole structure of that system was queried here last week.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. I would agree with that. One of the things I have said, having been in the role just over a year, is that it is a little fragmented. We have Youthreach, the CTCs, local training initiatives and other courses. Particularly in the further education sector, because it has come together historically over many decades from occasional training, and there are a number of different actors - the old boss - the education and training boards being voted in together. It has been somewhat of a convoluted journey to get to where we are now. It is not perhaps quite as cohesive as if we had started from scratch. I published the tertiary plan for the Department just two weeks ago. One of the goals I included is a consolidation of all those different strands of further education. When I say consolidation, some people think that means rationalisation. However, that is not my intention. My intention is to boost them all and give them parity. Some of them are paid directly by the State, some are paid by the Department through subagencies, some are paid through local employers while the likes of community training centres come through IACTO, as the parent body. It is a little fragmented, I get that.

What I put in the tertiary strategy is to engage with the different groups first, and then see if we can streamline them in terms of putting them all on the one footing. That would be better for the employees and the learners. I hope it would enhance their engagement and offering in future.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister's compliments regarding our report. I have been here for ten years and have been involved in a lot of reports by different committees. It probably was the most comprehensive one I was involved in. I do hope we will see its fingerprints all over the Minister's apprenticeship plan that is going to be published later in the year. It was a big body of work. I will leave it at that. In conclusion, as we have discussed before, I appreciate fully what the Minister says about the importance of having students on campus and for as long as possible, but I genuinely believe a big body of work can be done on timetabling.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Absolutely.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are - and I am not commenting on anybody's character in saying this - four-year courses that can be easily completed in three. That would be a 25% saving in the context of time, accommodation, travel and so on. There would be a statue built to the Minister if he saved the families of Ireland 25% of what it is costing them to put their children through college. It is very achievable. It is a big body of work but it needs to be done. I know students who are doing three, four or even five hours per week for a four-year course. The savings to the State there have to be looked at.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Senator is absolutely right. He has made that point to me before, and he makes it very well. I have asked the different agencies involved to examine the courses currently on their books and see if there is any scope for taking out latency or buffer time. Students need to have the opportunity to digest and consider the information. The Senator is describing five hours a week for four years and that is not optimal. Particularly when we need the likes of construction skills, we have a whole national mission to build housing and infrastructure and we are going to need every construction worker we can get to do that. We need to ramp up the apprenticeship offering, trades, professionals, engineers, architects and so on. I have asked the different agencies to see if there are buffers, programmes that are currently being delivered that could be accelerated. Speaking to employers and those involved in the industry, they absolutely think there is. This is a great opportunity to this. I take the point the Senator has articulated so well that there is a saving for the families and students as well.

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister and his officials. As we say in football, when you are defending, you are losing. In politics, when you are explaining, you are losing, but today the Minister is not. The work that he has commenced in the sector has to be welcomed. I have a son who is in the fourth year of an electrical apprenticeship and another who is in UL doing a degree course. I know all the realities and difficulties facing families. What really has to be welcomed is the €500 permanent reduction on the student fees. At a time when we need certainty going forward, serious consideration should be given to reducing the fees over the lifetime of the Government, as is in the programme for Government. If that €500 trebled to the fee of €1,500 per student in the student fees, that would be very welcome in budget 2027. I ask the Minister to really consider that. With what parents and families are going through right now, they need certainty about where extra money has to be allocated. If they have to put their kid through second, third and fourth year of college, that decrease has to be really taken into consideration.

On student accommodation, the target of 42,000 out to 2035 is fantastic. Over the past couple of weeks, with the uncertainty and global pressures across every country, it has been a really difficult time for the many kids who are travelling and commuting to college. I ask the officials to identify the people who do travel to college and to really commence some immediate measures. Families are going into debt now just to send their kids to college. That is by road. They are falling into debt to get them there. Can there be any immediate measure for these families? The sad reality of it is that some students could not afford to get there with the price hikes in the fuel. I am worried about the drop-out rate. That is over the last seven and a half weeks, so it is easy to pinpoint with the college. Examinations are coming up, and I know parents who could not fill their cars to get their kids to college. I would appreciate if that can be looked at.

On apprenticeships, we have spoken in depth about everything that has been done to support them. I am looking for the Minister's support in respect of a Bill that was passed recently in the Seanad, proposed by Senator P.J. Murphy and co-written by myself and Senator Mark Duffy from Mayo. It is a tool theft Bill that would provide a mandatory sentence of 36 months for people who steal the tools of students who are on apprenticeships and, obviously, those of members of the workforce as well.

I want us to support that going forward. There would be a maximum 18-month suspension. We really have to support that Bill.

The other issue I want to raise is before the public consultation committee in the Seanad. This relates to Senator Scahill from Roscommon. The next topic for public consultation will be Ireland's apprenticeship needs to address regional skills gaps and future workforce demand. Senator Scahill and I will request an equal balance of apprenticeship centres across the country. The Minister's target is 12,500 apprenticeships per year. It will take apprenticeship centres, accommodation centres and more staff to reach that. We are looking for regional balance to support all the apprenticeships that will come on board. It is a lot and there will be pressure on the Minister's Department to deliver that.

Will the Minister take all of those points into consideration?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Very good points. I think I agree with all of them. I will start with the student contribution fee. I did the permanent reduction of €500 last year, the first time in 30 years that we had a permanent reduction. That is a headline reduction - it is universal and applies to everybody - but on top of that there is a €500 fee grant. A household with an income of €119,500 will get a €500 reduction as well as a €500 fee grant, so those students are paying €2,000. A household with an income of €60,000 gets 50% of a grant paid. Someone in such a household would start on €2,500, but is now paying €1,250. A household on €30,000 is not paying fees at all. Actually, the threshold is much higher. I think it is up to the €40,000 or €50,000. The help with fees is staggered according to income levels. The greater the challenges you face, the more support the State will give you. That is the way it has always been. That is the way most of these schemes are situated.

Due to me raising thresholds again in this year's budget, 70% of households receive, if not the full grant, at least some form of grant aid towards the cost of college. I recognise that fees are an important consideration but it is 30% of households that pay full fees of €2,500, not €3,000. They have come down. I would like to do more, of course. I would like to keep working on that. We are still a bit off the budget. It all depends on the Estimates process figures that are available to me. It will be on the table for consideration and I have already asked my officials to cost it and look at the different reductions we could do.

I will be honest: there are a number of competing pressures. For example, the Senator is probably aware that other Departments have been levied to support the Department of education situation. That is out of my control. It is something that my Department, like every other Department, has to make a contribution to. That reduces the sum of money available for me to take new measures with. There is also the cost of fuel, inflation, cost of travel, the rebate recently given across the transport system to farmers, hauliers, etc., and of course the reduction at the pumps that everybody benefits from across petrol, diesel and green diesel. They all cost money. Everything we do has an opportunity cost and means there is something we cannot do. We cannot do everything, much as we would all like to. That is the challenge every Minister faces. In my Department, I will put everything on the table and we will do the numbers. We will see how generous other Departments are when it comes to allocating money to us and how well we do in the negotiations. That has always been the way and that is how it is.

On student accommodation and students having to travel, I know the Senator has two children in college and on apprenticeships. A focus of the technological universities roll-out and upgrade has been to have a university experience on a more regional basis. I visited Tralee recently. It has Munster Technological University, MTU, which is a full-fledged university campus in Kerry. That is an option for many. We are also looking at the TUs in terms of student accommodation. It is particularly suitable for TU campuses to develop accommodation. That is up and running and we are inviting submissions. We have a number of submissions in already on that. There is nothing stopping MTU, or TUs right around the country, developing student accommodation.

The Senator mentioned equipment. That is a really good Bill that he has introduced with the other Senators he mentioned. In this year's process, I have asked for a pilot scheme for the cost of equipment, placements, etc. Where students have a particular expense related to a placement or purchase of equipment, we are seeing if we can help them with that. That pilot is under way and its results will influence whether I can do it on a mainstream basis. The issue is certainly something I am aware of. I will have a look at the Senators' Bill. It came to the Cabinet recently and there was general goodwill towards it. It sounds like a very good idea.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Apologies, Minister, as I was not here earlier. I had to do stuff in the Dáil.

The first issue is the partnership arrangement or merger - I do not know exactly how you would describe it - of Dundalk and Queen's University. I can see the attraction - an all-Ireland university and so on - but concerns arise for workers in the Institute of Art, Design and Technology, IADT, in my area. There may be concern, though I have not been talking to them, in Dundalk itself but certainly there is concern among Teachers Union of Ireland, TUI, members in the last remaining institute of technology - IADT - as to where it goes as an institution and in terms of staff terms and conditions. There is talk of university status but they are concerned that the terms and conditions they have as part of the institute of technology, IT, sector do not get lost. What is the pathway? Will the legislation to be brought forward for the Queen's-Dundalk arrangement be an amendment to the Technological Universities Act? Will it provide a blueprint or pathway for those in Dún Laoghaire when they move towards university status? Will the Minister provide reassurance for them?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I know the Deputy has a strong interest in this. We discussed it in parliamentary questions last week as well. I am very aware of IADT's ambitions and I share and support them. It wants to achieve full university status. It is an exemplary institution in the creative arts. More broadly, I am on the cusp of creating a strategy for the creative arts, nationally, to support IADT, other institutions and creative contributors within that landscape. I have met the TUI's executive on this matter. I attend a conference every Easter and was there again recently. I met the executive as well, primarily around DkIT because that is the live one at the moment, but also IADT. I am open and committed to working with the trade union on developing the conditions, staff arrangements, etc., for both Dundalk and IADT.

On how we are doing Dundalk and Queen's, I published the heads of Bill yesterday, which got Cabinet approval. There are 46 heads. We are doing it through an amendment to the Technological Universities Act. As I mentioned in our Dáil exchange last week, that Act does not currently conceive of a single entity being elevated to university status. It does it through the mechanism of an aggregate. With MTU, ATU, SETU, etc., we have taken different ITs and put them together. There are other criteria as well; it is not just merging them. They have to reach a certain degree of academic excellence, research intensity, course offerings, etc. Other TUs have satisfied that and that is why they are where they are. We will continue to support them. I rolled out the technological enhancement fund, TEF. I think it provided €76 million last year to the TUs to continue building the base, supporting systems, project management and all the foundational steps to help them realise that university offering. It is not conceivable at the moment that a single institution jumps up. The amendments to the Technological Universities Act for Dundalk will enable it to partner with Queen's. There are a number of unique circumstances because it is a cross-Border, cross-jurisdictional entity.

I have had the same thought process as the Deputy. Could we do the same thing for IADT? Put simply, the answer is "Yes, but not through these amendments". These amendments are quite unique to the Dundalk-Queen's situation but they provide a template that we can roll out further to look at the case of IADT.

IADT is an exemplary institution. One of things we need to do is find out what the definition of-----

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hope to get another question in before my time runs out.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sure.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I hear that, and I hope the Minister will consult seriously with the workers-----

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, absolutely.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----because they were annoyed about the fact that announcements were made without what they felt was adequate consultation.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The only thing I would say to that is that it was quite a seismic and historic announcement. We had to jump together, so the Cabinet and the boards of each institution all met at the same time that morning. It was quite a unique situation.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I met AMLÉ and the Postgraduate Workers' Organisation this week. They are very concerned about the announcement from Research Ireland that postgraduate and postdoctorate funding is now not going to go through the centralised scheme, but through the colleges and universities. They are worried that could threaten and put pressure on the €25,000 stipend, which, by the way, I still think is not enough. It is lower than our European counterparts. For those who do get it, however, the change could create pressure because universities could say that they will have more postgraduates and postdoctorates and less of a stipend. That could also mean less student autonomy in terms of research because it would be going through the universities, which may decide that they want more of this than that or whatever, rather than just the centralised system. Will the Minister give some reassurance that there is going to be no question of undermining that €25,000 stipend for postgraduates and postdoctorates and will he assess their concerns more generally? They are very concerned about where this is going.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am aware of that. There was no announcement made in that regard, but there is a consultation under way. Research Ireland is the pre-eminent funder, although, as the new strategy states, it is going to be more than a funder. It is going to be more proactive in this space. It is a very dynamic agency. It has a wonderful new CEO, Dr. Diarmuid O’Brien, driving it on. To give the Deputy some assurances, one of the goals that he and I share, and I am happy to call it out in the Department's strategy, is that the pursuit of curiosity and knowledge is a public good in its own right. I am all for economic competitiveness and social resilience, but pursuit of knowledge should never be a disadvantage in its own right because - Deputies and I have had discussions on it before - it is a public good and should be recognised in that way. It is worthy of funding regardless of the subject matter, and academic freedom is core that.

With regard to the €25,000 stipend, that is not going to be reduced. That is €25,000 through Research Ireland. That is the stipend that my Department and I can control my control; we pay that out through Research Ireland. There are other PhD students who are funded from other funders, some of them privately, some self-funded and some through other State bodies, such as Teagasc or the Health Research Board, HRB, or it could be through universities directly. They do not come out of a Department's funds, certainly not directly. I have asked my officials to write to the funders and make the case to them that we now have a number of different levels within the funding system. I have set a baseline of €25,000. I would appreciate it if they would make a similar effort. That is something I am engaging with in correspondence, but I do not have any direct powers over how other agencies choose to fund PhDs that come within it.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister and senior officials for joining us today. I really appreciate him giving us the time and an excellent summary of his work to date and his priorities going forward. That was very helpful for us all.

What I want to highlight today are the increasing costs facing our students and their families. This is something that has been building in terms of the third level student contribution fee. We obviously have the accommodation crisis. We already have lots of students who are commuting long distances. We now have cost-of-living issues and, obviously, the energy crisis added to that. We seem to be forming increasing pressure on our students and their families in order to support them. It is very much on us to provide financial supports but also other practical means. Since it is a commitment in the programme for Government, and while I understand the pressure on a year-to-year basis, does the Minister have a plan as to how we are going to eliminate the third level contribution fee, which, as he said, 30% of students and their families are currently having to pay? Is the Minister engaging with the universities and other third level institutions on how more hybrid teaching could be introduced? If it is done effectively, this is something that could significantly impact commuting and accommodation costs to the benefit of students and their families.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the cost of college, I held an event last week in Portlaoise with a number of different family and student representatives and representatives of various groups from the marginalised, the squeezed middle and right across the board. It also included tutors and educators from further education, FE, and higher education, HE, across the sector. When we talk about the cost of college, there are many different factors in every sense. For example, it depends on where you are coming from and various other challenges that individual students face. When I talk to students - I talk to students every day - some say it is the cost of commuting, some say it is the cost of accommodation and some say it is the part-time job. I am trying to do things like the student income disregard to assist with that. Some say it is equipment, some say it is placements and some say they are apprentices and have to work on the other side of the country. That is an additional cost. There are many different factors that affect the cost of college. One of the reasons that I held that workshop last week, with over 100 people in the room, was to have the discussion and tease it out. The output of that will be published and it will be freely available to the committee and everyone here to examine. I would welcome feedback on it when it is out there. Then, I will engage with my officials to see, what resources are available to us in the Estimates. I mentioned to Senator Kennelly a moment ago in the context of the same question that, unfortunately, due to the levy that was going to be on Departments to supplement the Department of education, there would be less money available for the Department of higher education. It puts pressure on introducing new measures. That is regrettable, but it is the situation we are in. Ultimately, we will see what the available resources are and what the ask from the student body is in its entirety coming from the workshop. We will then will work out what we can and cannot do.

For clarity, the Deputy mentioned eliminating the student contribution free. I do not have any plan to do that because it is not in the programme for Government. I know it might be an ask of different individuals and I would like to do it as well but for clarity, it is not in the programme for Government. I will absolutely work to the programme for Government in its entirety. That is not in the programme for Government, however. Sometimes, it gets stressed that it is. I negotiated the programme for Government on behalf of my party. I have read it several times and this is not there. What is there is continuing to reduce the student contribution fee in a financially sustainable manner, and that is exactly what I intend to do. That is what I have started already with the €500 permanent cut this year.

In terms of hybrid teaching, the jury is out on that, to be honest. I understand that it can be helpful for some students to reduce their hours, particularly at a time of fuel costs, commuting costs, etc., but I think that the learning experience is of a higher quality when students are engaged one to one or in a physical classroom setting. A lot of research from Covid and so on reinforces that. It is something on which we are engaging with the universities on an ongoing basis in terms of timetabling and whether they can avoid a scenario where a student has one hour on a Friday and is travelling three hours for that. Of course, that should be happening anyway. There are benefits to being on site. Having said that, we are rolling out technology all the time to colleges to support blended learning. The feedback now is that we have to have hybrid as a minimum. A fully remote experience is not optimal for the student experience, for learning, for the extracurricular and broader aspects of education, for example, involvement in societies and student groups, taking extra elective modules, etc., that go with being part of the student experience.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister. I have one other follow-up question. The Minister mentioned in his opening remarks the borrowing framework for technological universities. I am interested to see if that is still part of the plan and what the plan is for moving towards that.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We published the student accommodation strategy about one month ago. It is up on the Department website. I am not sure if the committee has had a deep dive into it but it is worth having a look through. One of the mechanisms is that we are enabling the technological universities to borrow through the use of nomination agreements, which have been worked out with the NDFA as a technical mechanism whereby they can enter into agreements that involve a contingent liability but are supported by the State. That allows them to get over the jump of the borrowing mechanism, which has been an issue to date. I met a number of the TUs on it. They are really excited at this prospect. They can now engage. I do not want to get into individual cases because there will probably be commercial sensitivities with some of them, but some of the TUs that have tried before and were not able to do this because of the borrowing framework will now be enabled to do it through this new mechanism. They are very much up for it. We have already started. We have been out engaging with a number of different campuses to see what sites are available. We have 53 expressions of interest in the first round. The Department of public expenditure recently sat down with NewERA, one of the State agencies, to look at the technical details of the nomination agreements to get them up and running as quickly as possible.

The intention there is that will meet the programme for Government commitment around creating a borrowing framework for the technological universities.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister and his officials for the detailed presentation. I have a number of questions, first on student housing. I note the new strategy. Are there plans in place to regulate student digs? Another issue of concern is colleges increasing student accommodation rents because of service charges they are introducing. I know DCU is one example of this. Does the Minister think there is a requirement for more legislative change to clamp down on that?

I also wanted to ask about funding for the higher education sector in terms of the deficit. The Irish Universities Association, IUA, would say that there is a €307 million per annum deficit there. I met representatives of UCC recently and had a detailed presentation. They outlined that for every euro spent on the sector, there is a €6 return. Are there plans to bridge that gap and will the Minister give a commitment to further reduce the student contribution fee in the next budget?

I have two more questions, if that is okay. In relation to the English language sector, I know of recent reports of students being out of pocket for refunds. I am sure that the Minister would have seen that in the media. I am wondering if there is a need there for more regulation. I know a lot of these colleges are applying for the TrustEd Ireland quality mark.

My final question is on the adult education sector. I know there are plans for a long-term literacy strategy with long-term funding. Many of them report being in precarious employment. Is that a priority in terms of strengthening those contracts? Will the Minister commit to meeting them as well?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Was the last question on the adult educators?

Laura Harmon (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, the adult education tutors.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are a few questions there, Senator. Regarding the rent protections and the tenant protections, I will talk about digs and I will talk about regular student accommodation in a tenancy form. All student tenancies are subject to the RTB, the rent protection zones and all the landlord tenant legislation on the Statute Book, including the new rent pressure zones, RPZs, introduced by the Minister, Deputy Browne, which now cover the entire country, as I am sure the Senator is well aware. In addition to the regulations that exist and the protections the RTB offers, I have carved out an exemption for students so that student rents cannot reset on being vacated for a minimum of at least three years. In the normal private residential sector now, rents can be reset when a tenant leaves or serves notice, or in other circumstances. For students, I was mindful of the fact that they typically vacated every summer. I was concerned that there may be an exposure there, so I have negotiated with the Minister, Deputy Browne, for an exemption for students, which is now contained in the legislation that has been passed through the Houses.

In terms of digs, we have drawn up a sample licence agreement between the householder and the student. It contains a number of flexible clauses, such as whether it includes weekends and meals. It can be agreed between the householder and the tenant or the student and signed up to. I have asked my officials to ensure that, where a university or college is advertising digs on StudentPad or other platforms, a condition of that would be that it sign up to the licence agreement. If we are promoting universities and colleges, then the least they can do is actually abide by our rules.

In terms of investment in the sector, I meet representatives of the IUA very regularly. I think they have been quite pleased to date with the funding and support the universities have received from the Department. I think the €307 million deficit figure is probably a little bit outdated. That was probably the case five or six years ago. We have already given between €150 and €200 million through the Estimates over the last number of years. We are chipping that down all the time, so it is probably closer to €100 or €110 million at this stage. That is a really significant chunk we have knocked off, with maybe two thirds being taken out of it.

The Senator mentioned UCC. Just last Saturday, I was at the Tyndall National Institute, a satellite of UCC. I supported it to the tune of over €100 million. The Taoiseach and I launched the new strategy there, which is going to make it an even more globally excellent centre. It does work on semiconductors, photonics, magnetism and technologies that are really pivotal to our digital world. It also makes Europe and Ireland more sovereign in that space, so that we are not dependent on external actors geopolitically, which I think is really important. We continue to support UCC and that is the most recent example of it.

The Senator mentioned the English language schools. I am aware of the allegations that some schools are not refunding fees for students who have paid. I have made it very clear that this is not acceptable. I was in the Dáil yesterday when the Taoiseach was asked about this and he very clearly said it should be referred to An Garda Síochána. If there is an issue where moneys have be taken and retained, that should be referred to An Garda Síochána. It is not acceptable in any shape or form and may well be a form of deception. Obviously, I very much agree with the Taoiseach on that.

Historically, the English language schools were unregulated. The TrustEd quality mark is the first time there has ever been such a quality mark. In order to achieve that quality mark, schools have to pass certain tests or criteria. At the moment, we have the first set of applicants in the system. They will be considered and then we will move on to the next set. The intention is that, by the end of the year, all of the schools will have either applied and been regulated with the quality mark or, if they have failed, that will tell its own story and they will not be able to take international students if they do not meet the test.

I know that the clock is running. I have actually met the adult educators group. I met both the parents union and the group itself, so I am aware of the issues. The adult educator grade was agreed and I know there was some suggestion in the committee when the group came in that there had been no consultation. Just so there is no doubt, there was extensive consultation with all the representative trade unions. The group is not actually a representative trade union. I do not want to demean it in any way but it is not a representative association, as it is not an official trade union. It is a subgroup within a trade union. As per normal industrial relations practice, we meet the representative bodies that are recognised as being spokespersons for the sector, but notwithstanding that, I did meet the group and we had a good engagement.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire as teacht anseo chun ár gceisteanna a fhreagairt. Mar fhear as Loch Garman, tá an tAire an-eolach ar South East Radio. There was a very good discussion yesterday about apprenticeships. The station said that it had received massive feedback on the programme. The programme was talking about the plasterers union and the shortage of plasterers in terms of being a key component of construction. It said that, in Wexford, they would need ten to 15 apprentices. Will the Minister guarantee that we will see progress, maybe within this calendar year, on addressing the issue of the shortage of craft apprenticeships?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would like to say "Yes" but I do not like making commitments if I do not know that I can honour them. I do not generally make commitments. I would rather get the job done and let that speak for itself. In terms of the plasterers, I had an event called a skills roundtable recently. I brought a number of employers and representative groups around the table, including the Construction Industry Federation, CIF. The representatives of the wet trades raised issues in terms of plasters and others. I am following up with them to see what we can do to support that. SOLAS is the national training agency and it has a budget of over €1billion. This is assigned to the ETBs. In this case, if Waterford and Wexford ETB feels it does not have an apprenticeship course of sufficient capacity or magnitude, it should speak to SOLAS, engage on that and use its own funding to roll that out. I would be very supportive of that. It has never been brought to my attention or raised with me as an issue but I am certainly all ears if the ETB does want to raise it. The staff at the ETB know that they need to speak to SOLAS about what their offering is and see if they can do it.

At the start of the presentation, I said that we needed all the wet trades, dry trades and every other kind of trade we can get in terms of our national mission in construction and infrastructure. This is one of the reasons I am prioritising investment in apprenticeships. There is €410 million in the current year invested in apprenticeships, which is the highest it has ever been. How that manifests into course provision in different localities is a matter for ETBs.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The general point they were talking about was the shortage of craft apprenticeships. There has been a tradition of glossy committee reports that gather dust and are not implemented. I would like to see progress on traditional craft apprenticeships.

I apologise for my second question being a bit parochial also. I note the Minister was down at the 48-acre site at Ballynagee for the new Wexford campus.

When does the Minister hope to see students on that site? It is tied to the student accommodation crisis. Where the Minister and I are from, north Wexford, people have a choice of getting accommodation in Dublin or Waterford. It would be much easier for people from Gorey, for example, to go to a campus in Wexford, for the commute.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, definitely. The Deputy should not apologise for being parochial. I followed Loch Garman hurlers at St. Conleth's Park recently. They came a cropper against Kilkenny, unfortunately, a week later. The purple and gold still flies strong here.

The Deputy spoke about the campus he visited recently - before Christmas - in Wexford town and trying to get it going. Where it is at the moment is that I have given approval for the project to proceed and the acquisition of the site by the county council and the ETB from the landowner is in the process of being finalised. The next stage is a business case to be made by South East Technological University, SETU, and Waterford and Wexford ETB. They have been invited to put together a tertiary education campus strategy. It will set a precedent because it will be the first time we have had a fully shared, end-to-end campus with everything from apprenticeships in trades to degrees in higher education up to PhD under one roof, so it is quite exciting. A full end-to-end campus is the goal. The Deputy is right that one of the reasons for it is to enhance provision in the south east because south Wexford kind of falls between two stools.

SETU has a campus in Carlow, which continues to expand, and a campus in Waterford and there are other universities in the Dublin area. However, I agree. It is one of the reasons I am supportive of the site in Wexford town, to make sure we have a third level further education offering in County Wexford, including in the south of the county.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay, I thank the Minister. There is no definite date.

My third question relates to something Senator Harmon and Deputy McGettigan raised. It is the service charge for student accommodation. Will the Minister give a clear answer about it?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was brought to my attention a few months ago that one of the universities was increasing the service charges. I wrote to the university highlighting that I did not feel it was desirable to add to students' significant costs and that the rent protection rules mandate a certain limit to any increases. I think it is 2% per annum or the rate of inflation, whichever is lower. I said I did not want to see service charges increased as a way to bypass that. I was very clear about that. It is subject to legislation and it is the remit of the Department of housing. It does not come under my Department, but I have certainly made my views known that I do not want to see it occurring.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Baineann mo chéad cheist eile leis an nGaeilge ag an tríú leibhéal, mar a luaigh an Teachta Connolly. Tá sprioc 20% ag an Rialtas, a 20% target for recruitment to the public sector, including the Civil Service. There is a massive shortfall in that. An bhfuil an tAire toilteanach tabhairt faoin cheist sin le go mbainfear an sprioc amach go mbeidh 20% d’earcaithe nua cumasach sa Ghaeilge? It came up at the previous committee that less than 1% of cúrsaí are trí Ghaeilge in the State, which is hugely different from Wales. Would the Minister be prepared sampla na Breataine Bige a leanúint, to follow the example of Wales, by expanding that type of language provision and providing State sponsored provision for those who wish to learn Irish outside the school setting? Tá spéis ollmhór ag daoine óga, agus seandaoine chomh maith, sa Ghaeilge faoi láthair.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Cinnte. Tá an-suim agam i gcúrsaí ardoideachais agus breisoideachais trí Ghaeilge. The 20% target is one we have to meet and the Deputy is right that we have not been near where we need to be. I have said that in this committee today and on other days. It is something I have taken action on since coming into this role and we need to do better on it.

There are already State supported courses through Irish and in Irish. For example, many of the ETBs offer courses in Gaeilge and as Gaeilge, which are supported by the State through SOLAS and the ETBs. A number of State supported courses in Irish and through Irish are already available.

The Welsh example is worth studying. I attended the British-Irish Parliamentary Association recently. The Deputy may have been at it. There was good engagement and I took the opportunity to learn more about the Welsh experience and how they have been successful in rehabilitating the language. I am keen to learn from it and see if there are other examples we can follow. I have tasked my Department to look at whether we can do more in the provision of Irish language education. As I said to an Teachta Connolly earlier - he is also very strong on this - it is not so much about Irish language education, but embracing education through the medium of Irish. That is an important distinction and one I am very much alive to.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Tá ceist dheireanach agam faoin Adult Education Teachers Organisation, AETO. Yesterday, I received a petition with a huge number of signatures that pointed out massive budget cuts in the adult and community education sector and said that jobs and classes are being lost, affecting dedicated staff and marginalised learners. They are asking that the adult educator contract be totally reviewed. The Minister touched on it earlier.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not aware of any cuts. The Deputy might go into detail on that.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is what the AETO pointed out. Ms Anne Foster was before this committee previously and it was the point the AETO made in the petition.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

For clarity, SOLAS has never had more money. The system has never had more money available to it. People talk about cuts. What can happen is that different funding lines can be moved around within the preserve of the ETBs and SOLAS. It is a multifaceted and multi-leaf tree. I and the Department provide billions of euro to that system, but ultimately the different nodes may allocate the money as they see fit. There is autonomy in the different ETBs and different institutions. It may be convenient for some of them to point back upstream and say there are funding cuts. It is not the case. They make their own decisions and sometimes they have to make their own beds too. I do not blame the adult educators for agitating about it. They are right. They have a legitimate case to make. I have met them. For clarity, they are not a representative trade union, but notwithstanding that I met them and we had good engagement.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

An tAire and his officials are welcome back to the committee. I thank them for their time. I acknowledge the significant work that has been done by the Minister since he took office. Listening to him today speaking to my colleagues on the committee about the broad range of issues the Department deals with, it is incredible to think that, until 2020, this was all folded under the Department of Education and had not been pulled out and recognised in its own right for the crucial growth enabler of our economy it is. I compliment the Minister on the passion he has brought to the role. He has brought the Department to light.

We were delighted to have the Minister in Limerick recently for the announcement of the largest student accommodation project in Ireland outside Dublin, the Whitebox development. It involves an investment of €300 million in 1,400 student beds in the Castletroy area. Phase 1 is to commence before the end of this year. Planning permission has been granted and 724 beds are expected to be delivered by 2028. That is significant and the remainder will come on stream shortly thereafter. In our discussion, the changes the Government has made that enabled the project and made it viable were specifically cited. I acknowledge that from a local perspective we are seeing the work bear fruit.

I also acknowledge the positive announcement of the TU professorships. They are of tremendous support to us at the Technological University of the Shannon, TUS, in Limerick. They will support the university's expansion and development ambitions. I was going to ask the Minister to expand on the borrowing framework for TUs, but I note his answer to Deputy O'Connell's question in that area.

My background is in business, so I am predisposed to looking at the sector through a business lens. Looking at it from that perspective, will the Minister tell us a little more about the work the Department has been doing to address the skills gaps across different sectors in the economy? Between 2022 and 2024, 109,000 work permits were issued to non-EEA citizens for them to fill the gaps we have. Almost 35,000 of them were in the health sector alone.

I know it is an area the Minister is keen to address. Will he tell us about the initiatives he is taking to do that?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was great to be in Limerick with the Senator recently. I welcome the development at Whitebox Student Campus where 1,400 student beds are coming on stream. As explained to us on the day, that development utilised aspects of the student accommodation strategy. It is great to see the strategy brought to life. Significant benefits were achieved from the student accommodation design guidelines and other elements. That development is for students of the University of Limerick, Technological University of the Shannon and Mary Immaculate College in the Castletroy area. It is a real boost. It is great to see Limerick first out of the blocks in that regard.

We are doing a couple of things to address the skill gaps. We have a variety of training programmes that are available through Skillnet Ireland or the ETBs. Those programmes are delivered in a number of ways, including microcredentials that are flexible to the pace of the learner and allow them to study in the evening. This is an example where blended learning is appropriate. People already in employment and seeking to upskill can do so in a fashion that suits them.

I launched three initiatives in recent months in this area. I initiated a national skills round-table. I attended its first meeting approximately one month ago. Its second meeting will be in a fortnight where we will be doing a deep dive into the construction sector. The intention is that each forum will have a particular sectoral focus. The next meeting will focus on the construction sector, but the healthcare sector could be discussed the following month, the life sciences sector after that, food security and the agrifood sector thereafter, etc. In parallel with that, we have the national skills observatory, which is a data-driven database put together by my team, in partnership with our agencies and the national skills council, to understand the skills needed in the economy today as well as those that will be needed in the future. It also looks at the kinds of displacement happening in the economy and the areas where we need to upskill and fill gaps. It very much focuses on lifelong learning and how we continue to adapt. The skills round-table will take that data-driven, hard analysis of the database and match it with the anecdotal contributions of employers. This is where we will determine whether the industry is feeling what the data says and whether issues are being ventilated that are being missed somewhere in the data. We had a good inaugural session with all the groups, including IBEC and individual employers from different sectors. As I said, we will carry out a deep dive on each sector one at a time.

I am mindful of the digital evolution that continues to occur. Last year, I launched a site called aiready.ie, a skills portal with the ambition to upskill up to a million people in the area of AI. Every day, there is a new theory on AI but we are aware it is a technology that is coming hard at us, like electrification, the Internet, social media and smartphones. My attitude is to embrace and run with it. It is not going to be as good as promised, nor will it be as destructive as the doomsday predictors claim, but it is certainly going to change the way we operate.

The Taoiseach brought a report of the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, to Cabinet yesterday which outlines the impact of AI. One of the interesting findings was that AI can be extremely helpful in automating more routine and administrative tasks and freeing people up to doing higher value tasks. It may be less helpful for occupations towards the upper end or those in the professional sphere. I know that sounds kind of obvious. It can also create work because there is an expectation of a higher value output and it might require more cross-checking and source reference, etc.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It might require verification.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, absolutely. That is an interesting steer. One of the key findings of the NESC report was that we should be solution-orientated rather than technology-orientated. We should identify the problem to solve and then see whether AI is among the tools needed to solve it, rather than becoming technology obsessed where we see what we can do with this tool and run down a rabbit hole. That was an interesting and fair observation. Those examples - the platforms, round-table discussions and observatory - are to give a flavour of some of the different initiatives we are doing in the skills area.

Dee Ryan (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for that responsive engagement with industry. We pride ourselves in Limerick on the collaborative approach we take to employment generation. In Limerick, there is good communication between the higher institutions and the employers. It is great to see that the Minister is taking that approach as well at both a national and sectoral level. I acknowledge the increased number of training spaces the Minister provided in the different healthcare sector disciplines, as well as the social care apprenticeships he brought in. I thank the Minister.

Brendan Smith (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Like the Chair and other members, I welcome the Minister and his officials to the committee. I thank the Minister for his regular engagement with us. I congratulate the Minister and his Department on securing a substantial allocation in the national development plan. Were it not for that funding, which underpins all the work of the Department, we would not be talking about the progress the Minister is making and the plans he has.

The Minister referred in his presentation to the 1,100 places associated with the expansion in health, disability and therapy training places. I think I mentioned to the Minister’s officials before, if not to himself, the potential to use the further education sector to train people in both therapies and home care provision. In my town of Cavan, Cavan Institute has an arrangement with the HSE at a local level and private nursing home providers to train home care assistants and workers. As we know from our daily work as public representatives, there is a huge demand for home care workers. If this can be expanded and given some momentum, it will be beneficial for overall healthcare provision.

The Minister mentioned the INSPIRE programme and the huge emphasis he has quite rightly put on adequately funding research and development and all of that innovation, as previous governments have done going back to the late nineties.

The Minister also spoke about being at Tyndall National Institute with An Taoiseach last week and the whole area of semiconductors. It is not his area of particular responsibility. When we think of semiconductors and the geopolitical situation that has emerged over recent years, we as a country are very shy to have official relations with Taiwan. We have a lot to learn from that country. I do not expect the Minister to make a comment. At Government level, we do not have the level of co-operation or recognition that other member states of the European Union have with Taiwan. We should at least have a presence at official level in Taiwan because it is a powerful country in the whole area of IT, as the Minister knows.

Our colleague, Senator Daly, outlined strongly and accurately the need to address the lack of proper pay and conditions for staff in the local training initiatives. Representatives made an excellent presentation before this committee last week. I am familiar with the local training initiative in my county. These initiatives provide important support to people who have not availed of second-chance education or have health issues or lack confidence. As public representatives, we all know of cases where we have succeeded in getting a person to participate in a rural social scheme or community employment scheme. For those people, it is the first time they get a boost and feel they can go into the education sector or undertake training or employment. It literally makes them new people. It is the first real start in life they get in training or in the labour force.

The Minister quite rightly pointed out the need for consolidation that is mentioned in his tertiary education strategy. He mentioned as well that consolidation does not mean rationalisation and doing away with particular agencies. As he mentioned, it is about parity. The one group that needs parity with their counterparts is the local training initiative people. Excellent work is being carried out by Youthreach in my constituency and elsewhere, and Deputy Cummins has often spoken about the community training centres. The local training initiatives, however, have traditionally dealt with an older age cohort than Youthreach. That is my opinion based on knowing some of the people who have graduated through those programmes. I do not expect the Minister to have an answer today but I sincerely hope that his Department officials have the opportunity to read the transcript of last week’s committee meeting and address this issue. It is a small cohort of people but they are providing a powerful service for people who need it.

The further education capital budget is good and I know the Minister was anxious to move that on. He knows of my particular interest in the proposed major building project with Cavan Institute to consolidate the institute on one site in Cavan town. He mentioned that Grangegroman Development Agency will be the project promoters, if that is the proper term, and that the Minister might need to enact some legislative or regulatory changes. Will it be possible to move that on?

We must emphasise the great development and progress the Minister has made in ensuring that Dundalk Institute of Technology becomes a constituent college of Queen’s University Belfast. With regard to Senator Daly’s point about the number of years of some courses, I have spoken to many people who have done the postgraduate master’s degree in education, formally known as the HDip. It was a one-year course.

I have spoken to teachers in my own county, and outside it as well, who are mentors in that, and they say that there is no need for two years.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy very much. I also thank him for the invitation to Cavan. We had a solid opportunity to see a lot of the good work being done by some of the centres he mentioned. Indeed, it was great to visit the Cavan Institute as well. I very much share the Deputy's ambition to develop it into a college in the future at the earliest opportunity with a capital expansion, etc. Regarding the mechanism to deliver that, we have an intention to enable the Grangegorman Development Agency to become the delivery mechanism for the colleges of the future. This requires legislation but it is something I have asked officials to work on and work out. More broadly, I will be engaging with the ETBs in the coming weeks to invite the design process to start in a number of locations which will advance that further. It will be a significant step towards realising that ambition as well.

On research and development, I thank the Deputy for his comments. I know that he was part of a previous Government that prioritised that under the then Taoiseach, Brian Cowen, and I want to acknowledge that. Regarding the INSPIRE programme, as well as the Tyndall National Institute, in which there was a very significant investment, the more general call is to open in the coming weeks. That will be the first-round call for what we call local institutional infrastructure. That is for universities to have access to funding for equipment for labs and for different centres. It will be significant funding, and my intention is that the call will open in the coming weeks and certainly before the summer. That will be very welcome, and work is under way on that.

I take the Deputy's points on the geopolitical situation with regard to chips and semiconductors. One of the reasons the Tyndall institute is so pivotal to Ireland and the EU is because of two lines under the European Chips Act. Part of that is to make sure that Europe has digital and technical sovereignty and intellectual property, as well as the ability to manufacture within Ireland. In my constituency, Intel has been a very significant generator of microchips, semiconductors, etc. It is key that this resource for the global and digital supply chains is manufactured within Europe and Ireland. The Tyndall institute gives us more intellectual property towards doing that.

I take the Deputy's point about the further education route into healthcare courses. A healthcare assistant apprenticeship has started and there is a social care apprenticeship, but we can do more and should do more. I take the Deputy's points on home care and I will ask my team to look at that as well.

On the LTIs, I fully agree that they do good work. In terms of their current negotiations, I have instructed the Department to offer them a 7% pay rise. That is being considered at the moment, and we will see where it goes. I am very engaged on that, and I do intend - in fact, I codified it into the tertiary strategy as an objective - to ensure that parity is achieved between the LTI, CTC and Youthreach because they all do very good and quite similar work, but they do not always have similar terms and conditions. It would be desirable to say the least that they would all be given a similar platform, opportunity and support.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I did not get an answer from the Minister regarding my question about the RTB and service charges. In know that DCU has done that but what protections would the Minister put in place to stop this happening with the new student accommodation so that the service charges would be included in the rent because affordability is key. Institutions may say that they will keep rents affordable but then have the service charges going way above scale.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is certainly something that I am aware of and engaged on. I have to clarify that I do not have legislative powers to intervene there. They are the preserve of the Minister for housing. The Minister for housing is the primary sponsor of all the landlord-tenant legislation and the rent pressure zones, etc. I have successfully engaged to secure the protection for student tenancies so there is a three-year minimum moratorium between rent resets regardless of vacancies, notices, etc., which is very positive and has been largely welcomed by the student body.

In terms of the service charges, I have made my views very clear on that, and I have written to some colleges that are engaging in that practice. I made it very clear that I did not approve of it. It is something that we can look at more widely in terms of the framework we are putting in place for the new student accommodation buildings.

Donna McGettigan (Clare, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is very important to have that in place to protect the affordability side of it.

Laura Harmon (Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister and the officials for their engagement. It is always great to see the amount of engagement they have with this committee. As Senator Ryan said, the fact that we have a standalone Minister for this brief is really important, and the Minister has clearly demonstrated that there is a need for that.

I have a couple of follow-on questions, one of which is regarding PhD workers. Some additional funding was given there but representatives say that they are not earning proper wages, and they really struggle. Are there plans in place to support them further?

Regarding apprenticeships, it was mentioned earlier that in terms of procurement, the Department is putting measures in place and this is really welcome. If we are to meet our housing targets, the number of construction workers we will need up until 2030 is between 80,000 and 110,000, depending on where you look at the figures. In terms of construction specifically, are there plans in place?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the PhDs, the research of Ireland strategy has three central pillars: economy, society and talent. PhDs underpin all of those, but particularly talent. The talent pillar was specifically called out to support the growth of graduates, post-graduates and PhDs. It is a stated objective of mine to grow the number of PhDs within our system. We have extremely solid metrics on undergraduate education. I think we have an attainment rate of about 65% to 68% as a population, which is probably the highest in the OECD. It is something we should celebrate and be proud of, but we now have to look to our PhD cohort because it is essential for our knowledge economy that we continue to focus on this in the years ahead. There are a couple of pieces of work going on. One is to increase the number of PhDs that are available within the system. In terms of how we fund them, all of the Research Ireland-funded PhDs now have a baseline of €25,000, and I am aware that other PhD students may be in receipt of different funding from different agencies, many of which are outside the Department. Some are privately funded. Some are funded by the students themselves. Some of them are funded by State agencies under other Government agencies, and some are funded by third parties altogether. I have asked officials to write to the other funders to highlight €25,000 stipend from Research Ireland and to ask that they would make every effort to match that under their own funding streams.

In terms of apprenticeships and the trades, we need every apprentice in the trade and craft apprenticeships that we can support to meet our national targets around infrastructure, housing, grid energy and all of the things I mentioned at the start of my presentation. One of the ways we can achieve that is through ramping up the numbers in the system and that is what we are continuing to do with the €4 million and €10 million investments this year, for example. It is also by looking at productivity gains through the likes of modern methods of construction, MMC, which can allow us maybe a 30% dividend on productivity in terms of doing more with less. There are two prongs to that strategy. One is the productivity gain but also in terms of labour force activation. In an MMC environment, we can have components built off site. For example, we can have a factory in a regional setting where people are working. People with caring responsibilities and other quite flexible arrangements are able to participate very productively in a scenario like that but may not be able to drive out to a building site at 6 a.m. and work in all weathers and all hours. It also assists towards getting a greater gender balance in terms of the construction worker population. The Department has a campaign called Building Heroes which aims to promote gender equality in the trades as well, and it is going very well. We have four excellent female apprentices who are literally poster apprentices for it. They have been involved in campaigns around the country, and we are achieving significant uplift in the number of females taking up apprenticeships. There is a lot of working going on in that area.

Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister mentioned the unlocking of the NTF and in my contribution I referred to regional balance in relation to training centres going forward. Has the Minister considered this? We had an issue where students were travelling from Dublin to Kerry on this lotto system as they could not get placements in training centres nearby. The Minister and everyone agree that we need more apprentices. If we have a lack of apprentices in the Roscommon area and elsewhere in the midlands, we need new centres.

One thing about the NTF is that money needs to be spent wisely and that centres need to be located where there is a need rather than having kids going from the midlands to the cities and maybe a bit closer.

Can we look at regional balance to supply all of the areas? Apprentices are not just needed in Dublin, they are needed in Kerry, Mayo, Cavan and so on as well. Can that be seriously looked at?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, absolutely. The Senator touched on a couple of issues there. One is the availability of a placement closer to the apprentice's own home location and that makes absolute sense. There was an issue or an anomaly whereby apprentices were signing up to a course and they wished to partake close to home but were actually being pitched to the other side of the country. They had to travel and there were accommodation expenses with that. I have talked to SOLAS and have asked my officials to engage extensively to try to solve that problem. Frankly, if there is a place available closer to home, that should be the one that is offered to the apprentice. Sometimes it can arise that a place becomes available sooner in a further away site but the apprentice should be given the choice to take that place or wait until one becomes available closer to home. I am also mindful that in some cases, there are only a small number of courses. I am thinking, for example, of farrier courses which are only delivered in Kildare. However, the likes of the craft and trade apprenticeships are pretty much delivered in every region of the country. That is something that I am very much exercised by and I want to see it solved.

We are rolling out a continued programme of investment in training centres. In terms of the colleges of the future, we have 12 proposals progressing at the moment right around the county. Ten out of the 12 are actually outside Dublin because we are trying to invest regionally. I was in Senator Kennelly's own county recently, in the ETB in Killarney. It has a wonderful set of apprenticeships and is offering everything from wind turbine maintenance to scuba diving skills to hospitality. There is a lot of different excellent training provision going on locally within Kerry. The ETBs are regionally located and rooted and there is quite an extensive network of training centres. However, if the Senator thinks there is a gap anywhere that we need to fill, I would be very happy to hear his proposal.

Maeve O'Connell (Dublin Rathdown, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister. I will make one comment and then ask a question. To come back to the issue of hybrid teaching, in addition to reducing accommodation and commuting costs, it also prepares students for the real world. Hybrid working is here to stay. The whole purpose of going to third level is to prepare students for the world of work, which could involve a hybrid office, a hybrid team and, potentially, a boss who is not even in the same jurisdiction. It is very important that we enable students to learn these skills in an environment where they can be forgiven for making mistakes as they learn.

My question is about how we do not treat all students equally. I am talking here about designated and non-designated institutions. Students who choose to do a course which is in a non-designated institution do not have access to the same level of funding supports. Another way in which they are not treated equally is that they will not have a vote in the next Seanad election. The Seanad electorate has been extended beyond the traditional six universities and students of the technological universities, for example, will have a vote but graduates from these non-designated institutions will not.

What are the Minister's plans to address that and make it easier for institutions to choose to become designated?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If the Deputy wants to raise particular examples with me of particular institutions in which she is interested, I am happy to engage with her, either publicly or privately. I am engaging with a number of institutions at the moment which are currently private colleges but which are on a trajectory to join the public, State system. A couple of institutions come to mind but I do not want to put their names on the public record without their permission because some of them may not wish to have that known. That said, some of them are quite publicly progressing along that route. I am very happy to take a steer on this. If there are institutions that the Deputy wants to raise with me, I am very happy to look at them and update her on whether they are in programme or not, in terms of getting further supports. Anybody is free to operate a private college as a business and many choose to do so. The State has an extensive network of training and education centres that we support and provide but if people wish to operate private colleges, I am not saying that they should not do that. It is entirely their prerogative. If there is a value add there, then maybe it is useful.

I take the Deputy's points on the hybrid experience. It has been said to me, including as recently as the last skills round table, by a number of employers that what we really need today is transversal skills, communication skills, interpersonal skills, teamwork skills and they are probably more usefully developed through interpersonal learning. That said, a combination of delivery mechanisms makes sense because it is the way of the world now.

Jen Cummins (Dublin South Central, Social Democrats)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank all of the witnesses for the presentations today. It has been very interesting to listen to the contributions from everybody here. I have a few specific questions. I note that one of the ETBs has not signed up for adult education tutors. Is it going to do so or not? Is there a reason for that? I thank the Minister again for that meeting last summer with a number of people who are representatives. They are outside the union but are nonetheless very active in trying to move things along.

My second question is in regard to the local training initiatives, LTIs, community training centres, CTCs, and Youthreach all coming under one consolidation. At a meeting I attended last week it was quite shocking to see that the LTIs were hoping to have what the CTCs have but the CTCs want to have what Youthreach has. They are all doing a similar job with different vulnerable cohorts of learners and it is really important that they are treated equally and fairly in their own employment. If they are not, they will walk. They are not going to be able to sustain a lifestyle on the small amount of money that some of them are earning for full-time work.

I completely agree with the Senator who spoke earlier about four-year courses that could really be three years. We really need to look at that, especially with the cost of living and the fact that fees are still expensive, although I know the Minister has promised to keep reducing them - and I will be asking about that too. That said, there are other courses involving 39 hours a week of face-to-face learning. They are full-on courses and how do students cope with that amount of hours? Can we balance it out so that the love of learning comes back at third level in all cases?

Regarding teacher training, there is a call from unions to cut the second year but I do not agree with that. I believe they need the experience, particularly at second level, to go in and work with students. This is especially important in the context of adverse childhood experiences, which are very acute at second level. There are lots of things going on during the teenage years and I would really like to see student teachers having two years. Would it be possible for that second year to be a paid year, almost like an apprenticeship, where they are paid for the job they are doing?

I also wish to raise the issue of postgraduate workers and their concern at the recent announcement by Research Ireland that it is moving away from that. They are quite concerned about their rights as workers. In terms of categorisation, are those at level 10 workers or students?

Finally, regarding the ETBs at third level, what is becoming very apparent at the moment is that many people are doing apprenticeships and post-leaving certificate courses. I really want to commend the ETBs on the accessibility of their courses. It costs €50 to register for a course and they make the registration process so easy, with forms in plain English and so on. It is a way of accessing third level that is less challenging than the CAO application system or even the apprenticeship application system. I commend them on that and wonder if there is any way of rolling out the great work that they are doing to other third level institutions.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy for her questions, which I will take in reverse order. Deputy Cummins was talking about tertiary degrees and access to same in ETBs. I was actually supposed to be at one of them right now but am here instead. We will have a launch this afternoon but unfortunately I will not be able to make it because there are votes in the House this afternoon. I will just mention that there is an event happening this afternoon in Marlborough Street in one of the centres. We are doubling again the number of courses that are available through the tertiary degrees. There will be over 70 courses available as tertiary degrees. I agree with the Deputy that they are excellent. There are no fees, apart from a €50 registration fee in some cases, for the first two years as students pursue their studies through an ETB. Then, in third year, they join with the cohort who went in through the more traditional route. Also, there are no points requirements. They do not go through the CAO but go in directly. The tertiary degrees are a really good way of delivering flexible pathways into third level education.

We want to keep that good work up and we have doubled that every year for the past three years, which is significant.

I agree with the Deputy on consolidation. I said it a few times today already but she described it quite well. My goal is LTIs, CTCs and Youthreach centres should all be treated with parity of esteem and have access to the same funding and conditions. That is something I am working towards. There are historical structures within the system so it is not something we can do overnight but it is a goal in the tertiary strategy. That is my explicit and deliberate objective.

On PhD researchers, to date, funding has been provided directly through Research Ireland. There is a consultation under way as to whether Research Ireland would delegate funds to universities and HEIs to fund researchers through that mechanism. It would bring the funding close to the student, so there are benefits to it. That is an ongoing consultation so we will see where it lands.

The Deputy spoke of the cost of college and student fees. Her party has been strong on targeted supports, which I entirely agree with. My message is we need to give most support to those who need it most. The Deputy's colleagues have spoken in the Dáil about that in the context of various supports and of her party's view that they should be targeted and impactful towards those who need it most. That is a progressive and socially just view. I want to continue to reduce the cost of college, including the student contribution fee, but it is a function of the Estimates, year-in, year-out. As we have seen this year already, unexpected costs can quickly come into play. We are a long way off September so we will see where we are when we get to budget week.

Paul Daly (Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

After my Limerick colleague's contributions, I always feel obliged to remind people that Athlone is also part of TUS. She is always very Limerick-centric when it comes to TUS. The Minister mentioned the €1 billion for Horizon and the role we might play when we have the Presidency of the EU. Does that mean that budget is still up for negotiation as the MFF is being negotiated? Is there a possibility that we may not have €1 billion or could even have more than €1 billion?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have more than €1 billion already. We have €1.2 billion or €1.4 billion. I will have to double-check. The current MFF and Horizon budget run to 2028. Under those, Ireland has drawn down €1 billion in Horizon funding for research. There is an opportunity to draw down another €200 to €400 million in the remaining two or two and a half years of the programme.

I have published an action plan for Horizon engagement which I hope will assist SMEs in particular. Universities are engaged in the process, and rightly so, but many SMEs are not aware of how to go about it. I have met Enterprise Ireland and put together an action plan to assist SMEs in drawing down funding where they are doing innovative and qualifying work, which many of them would be but they may not be aware.

On the new MFF, when we take over the Presidency in the second half of this year, I will be chairing the meetings on the research councils and some of the education councils, and the question of the MFF will be front and centre, as well as the Horizon budget for the next term. At the moment, it is in the magnitude of €175 billion, which is a significant figure. Ireland hopes to score well out of that. That is subject to the overall MFF envelope being negotiated. I will do my best to maximise the Horizon envelope and, within that, to maximise the opportunity for Ireland to draw down on that.

Fionntán Ó Súilleabháin (Wicklow-Wexford, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister has taken a lot of questions today. It is good to be able to get a detailed engagement with the Minister.

I will clarify what we were saying earlier about the AETO. I just received another email today from the organisation, the leas-chathaoirleach specifically. There were six main points. The Minister mentioned funding. There is obviously some problem with the way funding is being reallocated. The points they made concerned the restoration of funding to ensure existing staff have continuity of employment and the cessation of recruitment for similar grades while redeployment options are investigated. They also talked about ring-fencing funds that are being filtered into other services. This is obviously causing a big problem. They mentioned restoring funding to the adult education service. They also mentioned ensuring employment structures reflect the teaching work performed in the sector and recognising the professionalism of the staff. Obviously, they do not feel recognised as professionals and do not feel they have a future in it. I do not need to go into the other points they mention. They reviewed the adult education contract and its implementation across the ETBs. Maybe it varies from ETB to ETB.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I recognise the professionalism of the staff involved. I met them a number of times last summer. Having said that, they are not the representative body. They are not the body designated by their colleagues as the representative group. They are a subgroup. I engage on an ongoing basis with the representatives and the trade unions across the board. The adult educator grade has been agreed with the union and has been adopted wholesale. All but one ETB has implemented it and that one ETB is in the process of implementing it, I am told. It has been agreed by the majority of the workers involved and ETBs are rolling it out.

The questions the Deputy's correspondent raises in the email are all fair questions but the majority are in the preserve of the individual ETBs. They do not need a Minister to tell them to do it. ETBs make their own decisions, are autonomous institutions, have a significant funding line and must manage it in their own way. All of the things the Deputy spoke of sound like things that are within the preserve of the individual ETBs. I suggest the Deputy's correspondent engage with the CEO of the ETB and see why it is not happening already. If some exceptional issue arises, they should go to SOLAS. If that fails, they should come back to the Department. They have never had more money. There is over €1 billion available to the training system through SOLAS, which percolates down to the ETBs. They should be having those conversations at local level in the first instance.

Erin McGreehan (Louth, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister's rapid-fire round has come to an end. I thank him for his engagement and his officials' presence. The issues covered by members have been worked on over the past year by the committee and are of huge importance to us all. The availability, affordability and quality of student accommodation and the urgency of that need has been rehashed with the Minister. The contractual discrepancies and career progression ambiguity for many employees in the sector, whether they be in research, PhDs, LTIs or Youthreach centres, have been discussed. One thing that has not come up is accessibility of education for people with disabilities and the need for student accommodation and new campuses to have universal design, etc., but also in relation to the courses and supports available, particularly at further education. Will the Minister update the committee by correspondence on what his Department is doing, the extra funding he has recently announced and where that funding is going?

One thing I would like included in budget talks for 2027 is families with two or more children in higher and further education. Will the Department consider extending thresholds for those families and bringing them within the remit of extra supports? As we know, it is very expensive to send children to third level.

I thank the Minister for his work and congratulate him and DkIT on the legislation approved yesterday at Cabinet. On behalf of the committee, I can say we are all looking forward to having it here, thrashing through each section, examining it and making sure it is brought through all Stages in the House. My hometown of Dundalk will be getting a university college. There is a huge sense of pride, not only from an educational perspective but because of the historic nature of the Bill, breaking down barriers to all-Ireland education. It is a huge moment for the country and the Government to be doing that seminal piece of work. I hope it will act as a template for legislation across Departments. I congratulate the Minister and the officials and workers in DkIT and Queen's who have worked on that legislation.

Without further ado, I will suspend briefly to allow all of our witness to depart before we move into private session to deal with housekeeping matters.