Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Tuesday, 28 April 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Fisheries and Maritime Affairs
Seaweed Harvesting and Licensing: Discussion
2:00 am
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The first session will run until 12.15 p.m. It deals with engagement with witnesses on seaweed harvesting and licensing.
Apologies have been received from our Cathaoirleach, Deputy Conor McGuinness, and from Deputy Eamon Scanlon and Senator Manus Boyle. Deputy Mairéad Farrell is substituting for Deputy McGuinness.
Before we begin, I wish to give a note on privilege. Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means they have a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at my direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside of the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from these proceedings.
I advise and remind members of the constitutional requirement that members must be physically present within the confines of Leinster House in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, a member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. I ask any member participating via Microsoft Teams that, prior to making their contribution, they verbally confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus. Members are also reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks, and it is imperative they comply with any such direction.
The agenda for this meeting, as I said earlier, is seaweed harvesting and licensing. We will now hear from witnesses representing BioAtlantis in this initial session. We have Mr. John T. O'Sullivan, chief executive officer; Dr. Kieran Guinan, research manager; and Mr. John Mulcare, plant manager. Witnesses representing Coastwatch are Ms Karin Dubsky, director, who is joined in the Public Gallery by Ms Elise Merkel and Ms Milena Kotzev; Mr. Dolf D'hondt, who is joined in the Public Gallery by Mr. Thomas O'Sullivan; and Mr. Mike Ó Curraoin, traditional harvester, who is joined by Councillor Noel Thomas in an advisory capacity. We are also joined in the Public Gallery by representatives of Donegal Seaweed.
At the outset I remind members of the limitations of this committee's remit. Oireachtas Members do not have an agitative function and cannot examine matters more appropriately dealt with by another State body. The committee therefore should refrain from discussing individual planning applications and discuss the broader policy topic of seaweed harvesting and licensing only. This applies to both parts of today's split session. Given the particular importance of this topic to Gaeltacht communities and the presence of witnesses from those communities, there are headsets available in the committee room and live interpretation is available. Má tá duine ar bith ag iarraidh labhairt i nGaeilge beidh fáilte rompu é sin a dhéanamh, agus beidh ná ráitis sin á n-aistriú go dtí Béarla tríd an gcóras atá againn sa Teach seo.
The witnesses' opening statements have been forwarded to the members. I will allow five minutes to read the opening statement or, I would suggest witnesses take two minutes to give a brief synopsis of same. We will then proceed to questions and answers. I now call on the first contributor, Mr. John T. O'Sullivan, representing BioAtlantis.
Mr. John T. O'Sullivan:
I will take the five-minute option but I will make sure I stay at five minutes. BioAtlantis is an Irish biotechnology company based in Tralee with 50 people employed and a further ten employed overseas. We have made a capital investment of €22 million in the past ten years and a further €10 million in research and development. We have written 80 peer-reviewed published papers and a number of international patents. We export to more than 30 countries around the world. We have to import seaweed from Iceland and Norway because our current supply is not here.
We extract the seaweed and produce a product called SuperFifty Prime which can mitigate the effects of climate change. It protects by spraying on the crop three to five days before a stress. It is able to protect the crop from cold, drought, heat and waterlogging for 15 days. The annual sustainable harvest in the country for ascophyllum nodosum is approximately 74,000 tonnes. This is split between about 3,000 tonnes in Kerry and Cork, 1,000 in Clare and 37,000 in Galway, 17,000 in Mayo and 16,000 in Donegal.
In terms of supply issues, Arramara Teoranta, a company formed in 1948, was our key supplier up to 2014 when it was sold, despite our protestations, to Acadian Seaplants, a major competitor. As we foresaw that there was going to be an issue with supply, we applied for a licence for Clew Bay in 2014. Acadian Seaplants also applied for a licence for Clare, Galway and Mayo in 2014. That now has been withdrawn and replaced with another licence application in Galway in October 2025. Acadian Seaplants stopped supplying us in 2022.
The commercial harvesting of seaweed is now governed in law. Anyone engaged in commercial harvesting of seaweed must have a licence. The harvesters are essential because it is quite difficult work. It is also skilled work because harvesters have to be quite skilful in understanding the tides and currents, etc. Harvesters are critical to us. We will be able to supply a market-leading rate because we are adding value to the resource. We would be replacing the seaweed imported from Iceland and Scotland with fresh harvested seaweed.
We believe that the licence should be prioritised for companies that add value to the resource in Ireland, or companies that are actually supplying added value of processing. Those two categories of companies should be given priority in terms of the licences. We also believe in complying with environmental compliance. There should be clear conditions to outline who is responsible for what between the licenser, the harvester and MARA. We also believe that MARA should have oversight of the process to ensure everything is kept compliant.
Traceability is a key issue. Our customers look for traceability. Traceability is important in a business sense and in an environmental sense. The actual quantities of seaweed extracted from the various areas should be traceable.
We believe there should be some facility included in dispute resolution and that all the different parties in the licensed area should collaborate to avoid any problems. I thank committee members for their time.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There a few seconds left. Mr. O’Sullivan said the priority should be those who are adding value to resources. What was the second part?
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We will now call the next contributor, representing Coastwatch, Ms Dubsky. Does she wish to take two minutes or five minutes?
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I ask Ms Dubsky to give us a synopsis of the report, which we have received.
Ms Karin Dubsky:
I hope people have had a chance to read it. I am speaking for the environment, which is under serious pressure in the coastal zone due to climate change and the way we act, particularly in the coastal zone. Many of our large seaweeds are ecosystem engineers and are really important. If we start cutting those, even present cutting by small harvesters in many areas, that should at least be looked at again in light of climate change because things are changing. I have just come from an international meeting. Huge areas of Spain, France and going into the south of England are losing their brown seaweeds. We are incredibly lucky we still have them and we should look after them particularly well.
If we look at our previous Article 17 report to the EU on the habitats directive, 90% of our habitats are not in a favourable condition and 51% are in a declining state. Among those not in a favourable condition are reefs. Reefs are where we get most of our seaweeds and, therefore, we need particular protections. What I am really concerned about, whether it is under climate change, biodiversity or invasive alien species, is all of this is concentrated in the coastal zone, where we have more storms hitting and slight changes in sea level. The whole system is adapting and that system needs to be restored.
Under the nature restoration regulations passed in 2024, 30% of our brown seaweed forests are to be restored by 2030. That is not just a nice target but a mandatory thing to do. While I fully understand the value of seaweed, we need to be very cognisant of what our obligations are and how we could miss out on huge parts of our ecosystem, if we accidentally damage it by harvesting too much.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. Dubsky for adhering to the time. We will go on to the next contributor, environmental campaigner Mr. D’hondt. Is Mr. D’hondt taking a synopsis?
Mr. Dolf D'hondt:
I will try to take a synopsis to allow for more questions. That makes the most sense. My five-minute statement will be available on the record, which means people can read it. I would like people to read it. When we are looking at rights it is a complex issue, so it makes sense for people to take the time to look at what I have written.
I am a director at Streamscapes and at Sustainable Water Network, SWAN. Through that, I am also involved with Fair Seas. I recently became chair of Save Our Sprat, SOS, of Bantry Bay. If there is an opportunity to speak about SOS, we would be very appreciative of that. I got involved with seaweed in 2017 and that is where my environmental journey began. Since then, I have been looking a lot at seaweed rights and how seaweed harvesting could be done in a more environmentally friendly way through aquaculture and growing seaweed. I have also looked at property rights and that gives me a good basis and foundation to be able to speak on and answer questions on this topic today.
The main problem which has been in existence for the past ten years is that there are two types of rights. There are appurtenant rights that belong to property and profit à prendre.
The problem is appurtenant rights were transferred to the Land Registry. In 2018, there were approximately 6,500 of those. We do not know how many profits à prendrerelating to seaweed we have as they were never switched over. That is where many of the problems have arisen because people have rights but they are not on the deeds or folios. Damien English, former Minister of State with responsibility for seaweed, in 2018, tried to get everybody who had rights to put them on their folios, but as a person needs 60 years of continuous use it caused a lot of problems at the time.
I will skip forward. I am also involved in the environmental sector. We have to be very careful as to what we do. Traditional harvesters have a track record of not over-exploiting an area, whereas there is a risk of over-exploiting with the companies that come in because they do density mapping and use it to harvest as much as they possibly can.
On the MARA issue, MARA released a statement on 24 March 2026, which was an explanatory note saying that by July 2028, regardless of traditional rights, harvesters will need to have a licence from MARA. Traditional rights will no longer mean anything. That is a serious issue because Article 40 3.2° of the Constitution states that the State will protect the property rights of its citizens. That is not happening. If we as a country need more seaweed, we should try to grow it through aquaculture as opposed to tying to fight our coastal communities for the right to harvest wild seaweed. I will leave it there. I look forward to the committee’s questions.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I call traditional harvester Mr. Ó Curraoin.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I remind members and contributors that this session is an hour and 15 minutes, so we want to leave time.
Mr. Mike Ó Curraoin:
I am 58 years of age and I live in the Connemara-Lettermore area of Galway. I have been working with seaweed from a very young age, harvesting it by hand and using it as fertiliser on land. Like many others in coastal communities, there were periods in life when other work took priority but we always came back to the shore because seaweed was never simply work to us. It was part of our upbringing, heritage, livelihood and part of who were. For generations, families like mine have lived alongside the shore and cared for it. The knowledge of harvesting seaweed was passed down to us by those who came before us, our fathers and grandfathers. We learned not only how to gather and save it, but to protect it so that it would remain for the next season and generation.
Today, however, multinational companies are showing increasing interest in taking control of something that local people have responsibly managed for centuries. What concerns many of us most is that recommendations are now being made to organisations such as MARA by people and companies who have little or no real experience of harvesting seaweed. Some of those involved in making these recommendations have never stood on a shore in their lives. They have never made or towed a climín, which is a bale of seaweed. It is called a climín in our part of the country. Their voices are being listened to, while the voices of the people who have worked these shores for generations are being overlooked.
Many landowners and harvesters hold long-established harvesting and folio rights over seaweed on their shorelines. It is difficult for those people to understand how companies with no such traditional rights can now apply for licences to harvest what has always belonged to local communities. Claims have been made that local harvesters have damaged the seaweed beds. I strongly reject that suggestion. We were taught properly by previous generations how to harvest seaweed without harming the plant. It is very similar to cutting hay. You do not cut the root out but leave a little bit on, and it always grows back after an approximate five-year cycle. The fact that these shores have continued to provide seaweed for hundreds of years is proof that people have managed them responsibly. Our concern is that if large-scale industrial harvesting is allowed, of hundreds or even thousands of tonnes each year, the shore may not be protected in the same way, especially if harvesting is carried out by people with little understanding of the environment they are working in.
If licences are to be introduced, then they should be in the hands of landowners and experienced local harvesters, not multinational companies whose primary interest is profit.
Personally, I do not believe a licence should be necessary at all. We have managed these shores, like I said, for centuries without damaging them. Our ancestors protected them for us, and we are protecting them now for the generation to follow us. What we are passing on is not just seaweed harvesting; it is knowledge, stewardship, and respect for the shore. One possible solution would be to create a register of local harvesters, allowing all companies fair access to experienced people, instead of allowing one company to control the entire resource. Annual harvesting allocations could also be introduced to ensure sustainability and fairness.
When decisions are being made about seaweed harvesting, those decisions should be guided by the people who know the shore best - the harvesters who have spent their lives working it - not by those who have known it from reports and theories. Traditional knowledge matters, lived experience matters, and the voices of coastal communities matter. I thank the committee.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat. Those are the contributions from the representatives of the four groups. I now offer the floor to the one and only person who has so far indicated, Deputy Mairéad Farrell. She will have five minutes.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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That will be tight.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That five minutes will be for questions and answers.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Tuigim sin agus déanfaidh mé sin. Beidh mo chuid ceisteanna i nGaeilge ar dtús. Ar an gcéad dul síos tá sé go maith agus tábhachtach go bhfuil an cruinniú seo againn ionas go bhfuil muid in ann an plé seo a dhéanamh agus go bhfuil guth na mbainteoirí feamainne anseo i lár an Oireachtais agus go bhfuil deis ag daoine tuairimí na bhfinnéithe a chloisteáil, go háirithe na daoine ar fad atá anseo atá mar chuid den phróiseas agus a shocraíonn reachtaíocht a théann tríd an Oireachtas. Mar gheall air sin, tá sé fíorthábhachtach go mbeadh sé seo againn.
Táimid ag plé le bealaí éagsúla agus cearta éagsúla. Ceann de na cearta sin ar ndóigh ná cearta traidisiúnta. Tá a fhios agam go raibh Mike Ó Curraoin ag labhairt air sin sa mhéid atá ráite aige anseo. An cheist atá agam air ná cén bealach is fearr gur féidir linn na cearta traidisiúnta sin a chosaint.
Mr. Mike Ó Curraoin:
Ó thaobh an modh oibre atá againn, go háirithe i gConamara, áit a bhfuil tírdhreach difriúil uaidh sin suas nó síos i gContae an Chláir nó Tuaisceart na tíre, , níl againn i ndáiríre ach bealach amháin lenár gcuid oibre a dhéanamh agus caithfidh sé sin a bheith traidisiúnta. Nílimid in ann tiomáint síos ar an gcladach le tarracóir agus, tar éis lá oibre a dhéanamh, an rud a chruinniú suas. Nílimid in ann sin a dhéanamh. Caithfimid é a dhéanamh go traidisiúnta agus é a chur isteach i gclimín, mar a thug mé air níos luaithe, agus sin a tharraingt chomh fada le háit a bhfuilimid in ann é a luchtú isteach ar tharracóir nó leoraí nó mar sin. Níl aon bhealach i gConamara gur féidir é a dhéanamh ach go traidisiúnta.
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Is dócha gurb í an cheist ná conas na cearta atá ag na bainteoirí traidisiúnta a chosaint, agus i mbealach amháin is é sin lár na ceiste inniu domsa. Cén bealach gur féidir linn na cearta sin a chosaint? Ar ndóigh, in 2018, mar a dúirt daoine eile, bhí Damien English ag plé leis an gceist seo agus ag rá go mbeadh na bainteoirí feamainne a bhí ag baint feamainne ar feadh na blianta agus na glúine in ann leanúint orthu ag baint mar a rinne siad le blianta anuas. Anois, tá caint ar chlárúchán agus mar sin de. Rud nach bhfuil soiléir domsa ná cén bealach gur féidir é a chruthú go bhfuil tú á dhéanamh ar feadh na glúine nó na blianta. Beidh teaghlaigh áirithe a mbeidh an stuif sin acu agus a mbeidh siad tar éis é sin a choinneáil, ach ar ndóigh, tá a fhios againn ar fad go dtarlaíonn rudaí agus cailltear rudaí mar sin. An bhfuil imní ar bith ar Mike Ó Curraoin dá mba rud é go raibh clárú de dhíth?
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Cén dóigh gur féidir cearta na daoine atá ag baint feamainne go traidisiúnta leis na blianta a chosaint?
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Sin iad an dá cheist.
Mr. Mike Ó Curraoin:
An bealach gur féidir é sin a chosaint ná é a fhágáil díreach mar atá anois agus gan ceadúnas a bheith de dhíth. Ní chreidim gur chóir domsa ceadúnas a iarraidh le rud éigin a dhéanamh le rud atá i mo folio a deir gur liom féin é. Ní chreidim gur cheart domsa a bheith ag iarraidh ceadúnas. Cén fáth go mbeinn ag iarraidh ceadúnas nuair atá ceart agam? Tá sé díreach cosúil le bheith ag iarraidh ceadúnas le dul isteach i mo gharraí le píosa fata a chur nó féar a bhaint nó rud éigin. Rud atá sa folio agam, i mo mhapa, a deir gur liom é, ní chreidim gur chóir dom bheith ag iarraidh ceadúnas le haghaidh sin.
Le ceist an Teachta a fhreagairt, tá éiginnteacht mhór mhillteach ann. In 2018 dúradh linn gur linn í is go raibh cead againn í a bhaint agus leanúint ar aghaidh sa chaoi go raibh muid ag dul. Ní raibh aon ghá le himní; bhí tada dul ag tarlúint. Táimid ag an spota seo anois díreach go bhfuil muid sa rochtain ina raibh muid in 2018. Táimid faoi imní ar linn í? An mbeidh sí againn? An mbainfear uainn í? An mbeidh cead againn dul síos in 2028 agus leanúint leis an lá oibre mar atá muid ag déanamh faoi láthair?
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Tá ceist dheireanach agam mar tá a fhios agam go bhfuil mé faoi bhrú ama. Tá Mike Ó Curraoin ag plé leis an bhfeachtas seo le tamaillín, le cúpla mí anuas. Ar ndóigh bhí sé ag plé leis roimhe sin freisin. An bhfuil aon soiléireacht tagtha ón Roinn nó ó MARA faoin gcruthúnas nó faoin gceadúnas nó cosaint na cearta sin?
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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I mí Feabhra, sílim, nárbh ea?
Mairéad Farrell (Galway West, Sinn Fein)
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Níl aon soiléireacht tagtha?
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Whitmore is next. Just to make it clear, Deputy Farrell is replacing a full member, so she had that opportunity. Others will have the opportunity after the members of the committee pose their questions.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I thank everyone for coming, and Mr. Ó Curraoin, in particular, for coming up from Galway, because it is very important that we hear his story and what he has to say in relation to traditional harvesters. I met him a couple of weeks ago and he showed me exactly how harvesting is done and went through the whole process, including how an area is laid over for five years to regenerate. It was very interesting to see that on the day. Following up on his conversation with Deputy Farrell, Mr. Ó Curraoin said he has a folio on this site. Would this be the case for all traditional harvesters?
Mr. Mike Ó Curraoin:
Maybe not for all traditional harvesters, but for most landowners, definitely it would be the case. There are harvesters down there who would have asked for permission from landowners for the use of their seaweed. Money could have changed hands for the use of it. For most landowners, they would have a right on their folio. Maybe some of it was lost in transfer down through the years when land was transferred from father to son - maybe it was overlooked - but for most of them, they had rights on the older folios at least.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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That to me would seem like a good starting point to try to understand how many people would have those folios.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Okay, perfect. Thank you. To BioAtlantis, will the witnesses go through the process they have at the moment? They have licences for - is it 4,000 acres?
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Sorry, okay.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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An application, okay. Currently, the company buys from traditional harvesters.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Okay. The plan would be that, essentially, BioAtlantis would harvest directly itself.
Mr. John T. O'Sullivan:
The plan would be that we would not directly harvest, but that we would employ the traditional harvesters in Clew Bay. You can never identify all the folio rights, but we have exempted anyone with folio rights from our licence application. If there are people with profit à prendre rights, if they file them, then we will adjust the licence area again to take account of them.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Okay, but in the areas where there are not folio rights, the company would employ people to come in.
Mr. John T. O'Sullivan:
No. Again, we employ the local harvesters. It is very difficult work but we must also be aware of the area so realistically we will not bring in strangers to an area where we are dealing with the sea. It is too dangerous. We would employ the local harvesters to do what they have traditionally done. They are not changing the methodology employed. They are used a lot. They are skilled in what they are doing and have taken a lot of the hard work out of it. If there was someone who was a seaweed harvester as their main job and farming and other enterprises is secondary then, yes, they might be an employee of BioAtlantis or else work as a subcontractor to BioAtlantis.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Mr. O'Sullivan mentioned there was 76,000 tonnes.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Can he tell me where that figure came from?
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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That is a considerable time ago.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Turning to Ms Dubsky and Mr. D’hondt, Ms Dubsky mentioned that seaweed mapping and inventory would be really important. That would imply that studies have been done. Do that monitoring need to continue? If people are harvesting something, particularly on a more commercial basis, the risk is that they overcut and that they completely undermine the future. Is mapping done or is it only in small parts? What is needed to protect the sustainability of this?
Ms Karin Dubsky:
Two things. There has been some mapping done but we are not doing mapping often enough to pick up changes, particularly in the kelps. There was kelp on our east coast. We have such frequent strong winds now that it was pulled out. We just get tiny plants establishing and then they are pulled out again. That change is not being picked up. We need much more frequent monitoring. However the most important thing, which I did not mention but had included in my paper, was enforcement. Even if we were monitoring, our enforcement record is so incredibly poor. As Mr. Ó Curraoin asked, who would actually monitor and enforce? How would they enforce?
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. Deputy Joe Cooney is next.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Sorry, can I get a quick comment from Mr. D’hondt in case he has anything to say on that.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I have to be fair to everybody.
Mr. Dolf D'hondt:
I will be very quick and just say one line. Taking Clew Bay as an example, as it was mentioned, it is a special area of conservation, SAC. You are trying to cut seaweed in an SAC. I know special areas of conservation and special protection areas in a marine environment do not mean anything. I do not know how you can measure whether there is going to be an impact. There is no management plan or management measures. There are no monitoring plans. They do not even exist on the admiralty chart. They do not exist so it is very hard to ask us to see if there is going to be an impact if the special areas of conservation do not mean much. Harvesting that amount of seaweed inside a special area of conservation without any oversight or monitoring is very dangerous from an environment point of view.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Mr. D'hondt. Deputy Cooney is next.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank everyone for coming in today and for their opening statements. Mr. Ó Curraoin is really passionate about the seaweed harvesting. He said in his opening statement
What concerns many of us most is that recommendations are now being made to organisations ... by people and companies who have little or no real experience of harvesting seaweed ... Their voices are being listened to, while the voices of the people who have worked these shores for generations are being overlooked.
[...]
Claims have been made that local harvesters have damaged the seaweed beds. I strongly reject that suggestion.
[...]
What we are passing on is not just seaweed harvesting; it is knowledge, stewardship, and respect for the shore.
He finished by saying, which I was very impressed by, "Traditional knowledge matters, lived experience matters, and the voices of coastal communities matter." What are his thoughts of a register for harvesters that includes a requirement for training in sustainable harvesting methods and for processors to have a requirement to only purchase from registered and trained harvesters?
Mr. Mike Ó Curraoin:
I would be very pleased with that if it came to that. There should be a register, which would be the flip side, of recognised, knowledgeable harvesters put in place like we did with the fishing punts going back ten, 15 or 20 years ago so that they would be registered there and that would give a fair crack of the whip to every company in Ireland that is dealing with seaweed to get on that register and look up the contact details there and for them to be able to call and ask someone if they can supply a load of seaweed. People would be satisfied in their own minds that they would not be scampered or done badly on the shore and there would be no rough work or damage done to the shoreline and that it would be done traditionally like it was always done. There would be no fear of it being damaged or killed off the crop or kill it off in spots. They would be knowledgeable harvesters down there doing the job.
I definitely agree with training being done and my knowledge being passed on to the younger generation because they are not coming up. The youngest in this game now is 45 or 50 years and older. No younger people are coming forward. There is probably no incentive for them to come forward to go at it. I would welcome that training be done so that it would be handed down to them if it was a thing that they felt like. We do not know how things are going to fall out. Down through the years they would be able to go down the shore and make a living and get that proper training.
Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I have to agree with Mr. Ó Curraoin. A lot of the old traditions, unfortunately, are gone and the younger generation are not aware of them and what happened in the past. That is why I compliment him for raising this issue.
Mr. John T. O'Sullivan:
On that point, if I can sell to A, B or C, that has the potential to create havoc because if you start competing on the shoreline and everyone is paying the higher price, you are looking for lunacy. It sounds lovely but then who is responsible for the traceability of what is being harvested? Who is responsible for putting a harvesting plan in place? Who is responsible for one harvesting affecting some other area? Someone has to be responsible. That is fraught with danger.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy's time is expired. I will go to the members of the committee first so Deputy Mac Lochlainn is next.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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This whole area is a shambles really. I thank everyone for their presentations.
The State has known from the Attorney General's submission in 2018 that it needed to engage with the traditional people who had rights. My understanding is that the Attorney General's advice covered both of the areas that Mr. D'hondt mentioned in his presentation: appurtenant rights and profit à prendrerights. The Attorney General said that both must be recognised. To me, the State should have engaged with people who clearly had traditional rights, even though it might not be registered with Tailte Éireann. I want to get under the bonnet of that issue with the help of Mr. Ó Curraoin and Mr. D'hondt as to how we resolve that because I do not think we can move forward unless we, first of all, protect the rights of people who have been involved in seaweed harvesting for generations and longer. Can I get a sense of those from the two witnesses?
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I remind members that the questions, as correctly done by Deputy Mac Lochlainn and others, should be directed to the main contributors. It is the main contributors who can request one of their colleagues to respond. I do not have the right to call anybody except the main contributors.
Mr. Mike Ó Curraoin:
We had appurtenant rights on folios going down by landowners who lived along the west coast. They should be recognised. From what I saw, the application that was made by Arramara for Connemara was for five bays, but that includes the whole seaboard of Connemara. I have seen seven appurtenant rights on folios and we were told that they had established where rights were and were not and they were only applying for where there were no rights, but that is not the case. That is what I am worried about with this. We have been railroaded here and pushed aside.
There were reports and recommendations made to MARA going down through the years by companies, and by yourself, J.T., and you formed a group and there were recommendations made that were totally inaccurate. Also by Mr. Jim Keogh of Arramara, there were recommendations made and reports made where there were a lot of inaccuracies in them that we would like to be amended.
We feel pushed to one side for control. Nobody contacted the harvester. Although it was said that there was contact made, there was no contact made. There are a lot of inaccuracies. That is why I feel it is kind of dangerous dealing with this stuff.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. I am obliged to give one minute to Mr. D'hondt.
Mr. Dolf D'hondt:
I will be very brief. A lot of the questions asked by the committee can be answered by the explanatory notes that were brought out on 24 March by MARA. I know MARA representatives will be in the Chamber later and members can perhaps ask them questions. One of the things MARA stated was, after July 2028, traditional rights do not mean anything anymore. As has been said before, we are repeating what happened in 2018, where big companies are trying to get a stake. The problem has always been that the State cannot give a right to a company if there is already a traditional right existing.
A lot of the appurtenant rights have been transferred over, I believe, along the west coast. It is not all of them but the amount is 6,500 rights on folios. We do not know how many profit à prendre rights there are. There are 10 million records in the Land Commission held in Portlaoise, and if somebody went through them, they could see what was there and get a handle on it. That is one way of doing it. The way Damien English wanted to do it was to force people to prove they had rights, and from then on you could see what did not have rights attached to it and give that to large companies. We are back to the same thing where MARA is now trying to say there is a period at the moment where traditional harvesters get preference, but once July 2028 comes in, it will have everything under control because it knows exactly where there is a licence and can then give away large areas.
The fear there is that large companies will not be looking at the environmental side; they will look at the tonnage. They will send the lads in with bags and cut whatever they can because they have a licence to do that and it would be fully legal.
There is another thing. One of the things MARA has stated is that, when it hands out a licence, it will ask the licenceholder to indemnify themselves and the State in case there are damages coming from people who have rights on it. The onus is on the developer to pay off anyone who comes up. It is a shambles.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Mac Lochlainn may have another chance to come in. The next member is Deputy Cahill.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome our guests and thank them for their opening statements. I wish to ask Mr. O'Sullivan of BioAtlantis a question. He has invested heavily in his company and he employs over 50 people in Ireland and ten overseas. I see he was supportive of the traditional rights. I live in Rossbeigh on a beach on the coastline, so obviously I would too. There is currently a company from outside of Ireland that is harvesting here and exporting seaweed. I note Mr. O'Sullivan's company is currently importing seaweed from Iceland and Norway as there is not sufficient supply here. That is absolutely outrageous to be honest. We should be doing everything possible to remedy that. I believe we should prioritise companies that are for the maximum value of the resource here. The licence conditions should be practical and clearly understood. Will Mr. O'Sullivan expand on what his products actually do and how they mitigate against climate change?
Mr. John T. O'Sullivan:
One of the key issues at the moment is that with climate change there are extremes of temperature, especially heat. It is not just Ireland. There is drought and cold, and it is not just outside the temperatures. Potatoes are a simple enough crop and everyone would say there are no big issues with it, but if the temperature goes over 25°C, the yield starts being reduced considerably. Water stress is a constant one.
We have built the science. This is serious science and you have to invest in serious science to get this. By applying the product, which is an extract from seaweed, on the crop, and we are only talking about 2 l of an application per hectare, that crop is protected for 15 days. The raw materiel is essential to us. We have to make sure it is taken care of or otherwise we do not have a business.
What happened in 2014 was shocking. It happened here in the Dáil. The last time I appeared at a committee was 2014, and I was objecting to the sale by Údarás na Gaeltachta of Arramara Teoranta to Acadian Seaplants. That agreement is under confidentiality agreement indefinitely - not for ten years, which they told us first, but indefinitely. What the hell has gone on here? That same company stopped the supply to us and basically tried to put us out of business in 2022. It now has an application. We have to import seaweed from Iceland and Norway because Arramara Teoranta controls most of Galway. That seaweed is being exported to Canada at no value to the company, no tax to the State - nothing to the State. It has not invested barely a penny in that plant since 2014. All I am saying is we need a resource-----
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There is only a minute left and I must give an opportunity to others. It is Deputy Cahill's five minutes.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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That is absolutely astonishing. In regard to MARA, it should be responsible for oversight. I have a number of questions. How is it performing in relation to its 2024 to 2027 strategic plan? I am hearing of huge delays in the issuing of MAC and maritime usage licences. Can the authority provide set time frames for licence applications? I had huge issues myself and have raised here previously my concerns around Renard pier and the slipway there, as well as many other locations in Kerry. How does authority handle complaints? How many people are employed by it? Are they all based on one site? How many public consultations has it had on maritime usage licences? How many members are on the board and does the board hold monthly meetings?
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Am I right in thinking those questions should be directed to MARA?
Mr. John T. O'Sullivan:
Yes, exactly, but I would make one point on MARA. We were with the Department of housing in 2014, which was madness. It has been transferred to MARA and we have no issue with that. There is a process and a structure there to establish the licences and we are okay with that. We do not have any issue with it.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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MARA will be here for the second session.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I can get my answers then, if we are under time pressure.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The next committee member is Deputy Ward.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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I thank all of the witnesses for coming in. Mr. D'hondt referred to difficulties in establishing long-standing traditional harvest rights. I ask him to go into more detail on that for me. How does somebody prove that he or she has the right? Generationally, what would we be dealing with? How far back? What are the potential solutions to this issue as he sees it on the ground?
Mr. Dolf D'hondt:
The issue of rights is quite simple. In 2018, the former Deputy, Damien English, set the bar such that people had to prove that they were continuously using that right for 60 years. That is difficult because one has to be able to prove that three generations of people have been using it and one has to have dockets to prove it, going all the way back.
From where I am sitting, we have gone past that because MARA is the organisation that is regulating it, even though it is not overseeing the actual cutting of seaweed. It is clear that there is going to be no environmental oversight or monitoring of the cutting of seaweed. When it comes to traditional harvesters who have been doing it for generations, they know what they can cut in a patch and what they cannot. That is fine but when it comes to large organisations taking huge areas, that is a problem. From my perspective, if we come to 2028 and we cannot get that changed, then all of this talk of traditional rights is out the window
Ms Karin Dubsky:
The Food and Agriculture Organization, FAO, has very good guidance on traditional rights and applying those rights. Some countries have adopted them as they are or have fine tuned them to their needs. Dr. Rebecca Metzner from the guidance section of the FAO was here in 2016 when we made our recommendations. There could be quite a lot in that. In the FAO case, it is not a question of proving 60 years of continuous use but of fine-tuning it to the particular area because harvesting might be intermittent but ongoing. There might be a ten-year gap and then something else.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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My next question is for Mr. Ó Curraoin. What would be the benefit of a register of traditional harvesters?
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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Would they be trained to a certain standard?
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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Right now, Mr. Ó Curraoin would not have confidence in that. Is that correct?
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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That is where the devastation occurs.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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Are traditional harvesters facing other issues?
Mr. Noel Thomas:
Can I come in on that? Mr. Ó Curraoin has been talking about this and I have been dealing with him for quite some time. The way this is going to work, no question about it, is that using the traditional harvesters, as far as I am concerned and a lot of other people are concerned, is the best and most sustainable and environmentally friendly way of continuing on with the business. If legislation is brought in under which they will require a licence, which is going to cost money, and small harvesters are going to have to pay for appropriate environmental assessments of the area, they will not be able to afford it and that will be the end of the traditional harvester. Ms Dubsky would probably agree that what the State should be doing is encouraging traditional harvesters. Subsidies or supports should be put in place by the Government to ensure that best practice continues. The small harvester should be supported with, for example, the environmental reports. The State should actually be paying for them or at least helping to cover the costs. Our small coastal communities are declining all of the time and there is a great opportunity here, with a seaweed industry, to support families in the coastal areas and help to keep our rural communities going in those areas. There is a great opportunity there and it is something that we really do not want to miss out on.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I thank the witnesses for being here this morning. Clew Bay is an SAC and a very important area. Communities and farmers right across Mayo are doing the right thing. They are trying to protect the coastline in the region. I have significant concerns here in relation to the level of tonnage that is being applied for in Clew Bay. I studied the public consultation documents carefully. Self-monitoring is a significant issue that should not be understated here.
Regarding the application that was submitted for Clew Bay, the Marine Institute stated that it is relying on data from 2016, 2013, 1998 and 2001, meaning that the current conditions have not been established. Furthermore, the NPWS stated that the application contains no proper assessment against site-specific objectives and no baseline habitats data. It also stated that it contains weak mapping of harvesting areas and makes unproven recovery assumptions. Further, the application contains inadequate analysis of the impacts of coastal erosion. How do the witnesses respond to the statements of those two public bodies?
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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One moment please. I want to warn everybody here that we cannot discuss individual licence applications. We must only discuss the generalities.
Mr. John T. O'Sullivan:
If someone made an application and was granted a licence, he or she would then have to start with a baseline study. That would be the only way. Is it out of date? Maybe it is, I do not know but we would have to start with a baseline study and then agree a harvesting plan with the harvesters on what areas should and should not be harvested. There may be areas that one would try to keep away from because of salt marshes, for example. If we look at the overall area that is harvested versus the size of the bay, we are talking about 1.5% of the area. However, we will have to take account of all of the different environmental factors like the wildlife, salt marshes, mudflats-----
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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My concern here is the fact that there has been no baseline data captured-----
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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-----and we are relying on data-----
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Lawless has two minutes for another question.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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In terms of the tonnage, Mayo has an estimated sustainable harvest of about 16,000 wet tonnes a year. The application that has been submitted is in the region of 10,000 tonnes a year. That means that one application alone is potentially going to account for over 60% of the entire harvest for County Mayo concentrated in one geographical area of Clew Bay. That is a significant application. It begs the question where the room is for native harvesters or potentially other applicants that come in. I appreciate that BioAtlantis has every right to submit an application, but the State has an obligation to ensure that a process is in place.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Huge questions remain in relation to that. Will Mr. O'Sullivan comment on that?
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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More general, please.
Mr. John T. O'Sullivan:
I appreciate the majority of the seaweed in Mayo is located in Clew Bay. We have taken out areas where there are potentially environmental concerns to bring down the area. We have done a thorough analysis. The plan has been reviewed by both the Department of agriculture and the National Parks and Wildlife Service, NPWS, etc. It has been studied. Comments came back from the public bodies. We have gone back around the circle again to reply to all of those queries to make the application as robust as possible. There is a constant interaction between the State bodies and ourselves on that matter.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Time is limited and I have to give an opportunity to other members. Deputy John Connolly has five minutes.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Gabhaim buíochas le Mike Ó Curraoin agus leis na cuairteoirí eile as a bheith linn. Tá cúpla ceist agam ar Mike Ó Curraoin faoin aighneacht aige. Dúirt sé go bhfuil imní air go bhfuil daoine agus comhlachtaí ag tabhairt moltaí do MARA agus nach bhfuil taithí acu i ndáiríre ar bhaint na feamainne. Cé hiad sin?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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An ndearna siad iarratas nó moltaí?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Cén phróiseas a bhí ann le haghaidh sin?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Nach raibh an deis chéanna ag na bainteoirí traidisiúnta?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Ní raibh deis ag na daoine atá cearta traidisiúnta acu aighneacht nó moladh a thabhairt don Roinn, ab ea?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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An bhfuil éinne linn inniu ar féidir leo an t-eolas a thabhairt dúinn cén sórt próiseas a bhí ar bun ag an tráth sin go raibh siad in ann moltaí nó aighneachtaí a dhéanamh don Roinn?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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An raibh próiseas ann? In his own submission, Mr. Ó Curraoin stated that recommendations were being made by people and companies to organisations such as MARA.
I sought an explanation from him as to who the people and companies were. I then asked him in what type of process were those recommendations made. He has made the committee aware that Mr O'Sullivan's company was among those who made recommendations.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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There must have been some type of process. Did the Department come and seek your input?
Mr. John T. O'Sullivan:
There was a communication with the Department because it was with the Department of housing at the time. I am not saying anything against anyone but the knowledge level on the foreshore, etc., was not there. There was an interaction between us, on that group, and the Department of housing to try to see could a process be put in place that would organise the licensing because, one way or the other, licensing has to happen. I do not see any future in it, either for the harvesters or others, if we do not have a proper licensing system. It would be great to say that everything should have be left as it was, but that is not how life works. Traceability is a key requirement these days. We are working in special areas of conservation, SACs. There is a whole body of legislation in terms of our environment and everything else.
The licensing system is now in law. Are we now going to try to stop the law again? We should just be careful here. I urge caution. Enterprise Ireland and Research Ireland have invested millions of euro in research by universities. Teagasc has also invested millions of euros. Where is the research going now? Where is the value being got for the State out of those things? It is being exported because we are not able to access the raw material. I can go harvesting and I can go up to buy seaweed in Clew Bay above in Mayo, but I would be breaking the law.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Because you have no licence.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The point is there are traditional rights there.
Mr. John T. O'Sullivan:
I have no issue with traditional rights. Anyone who has a folio number is one thing. We have absolutely no objection to profits à prendre. We are not going to do anything that affects traditional folio rights or profit à prendre rights, if the holders can justify it. There is no issue there. We will reduce our licence area to do that. We are not going to go to Clew Bay to try to bully the harvesters. We have better things to be doing. This is as important to us as it is to the harvesters. It is a two-way thing. We are trying to compete with Acadian Seaplants. The harvesters and the processors are a team. It is not A versus B. We want to be a team that works together to actually build an industry. That was the dream.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The clocks are around the room to give an indication when a witness's time is coming to an end.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The committee has sat for one hour and 15 minutes. I assure the witnesses we will discuss the various issues raised. The interaction was very robust at times. We will discuss this in private session in due course. We will be asking who decided that some people were invited to make submissions and for their observations, while others, such as traditional harvesters, were not. That is certainly something that we will raise.
We could have gone on for the afternoon but the clock has beaten us. I am going to suspend now and we will commence the second session in about five minutes or so. I thank those who contributed. Those who did not get an opportunity to contribute can blame the lead speaker, not the Chair.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Before we begin, I wish to read a note on privilege. Witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to the committee. This means they have a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at my direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity.
We resume our discussion on the topic of seaweed harvesting and licensing. The committee is joined by the following witnesses representing the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Mr. Brian Batt and Ms Shona Dennis; representing Bord Iascaigh Mhara, Mr. Rory Campbell and Ms Joanne Gaffney; representing the Marine Institute, Dr. Glenn Nolan, director, marine environment and food safety services; and representing Maritime Area Regulatory Authority, MARA, Ms Laura Brien, chief executive officer and Mr. John Evans, director of maritime usage licensing and planning advisory. We are joined from MARA in the Public Gallery by Mr. Padraic Dempsey and Suzanne Wylde; and from Údarás na Gaeltachta, Ms Dearbháil Ní Chualáin agus Ms Máire Ní Éinniú.
The witnesses' opening statements have been forwarded to the members and I will allow witnesses five minutes to read the opening statement, or they can do a synopsis in two minutes which will give us extra time for questions and answers at the end.
I call on the first contributor, Mr. Brian Batt.
Mr. Brian Batt:
I will give a synopsis of the opening statement in two minutes. I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach and members for the invitation to appear before the committee today. I am the head of the aquaculture and foreshore management division. I am joined by my colleague, Ms Shona Dennis, administrative officer in our shellfish and aquatic plants licensing team.
I will give some key points from the opening address. An aquaculture license is required by law for the cultivation of fin fish, shellfish and certain aquatic plants such as seaweed. The Department considers all applications in line with the applicable legislation. The process involves consultation with a wide range of scientific and technical advisors as well as various statutory consultees and a period of public consultation. As discussed with the committee in January, the timeframe for processing an aquaculture license varies depending on a number of factors, including the location, species, scale and intensity of production and the requirement for an appropriate assessment and whether the application is required to be accompanied by an environmental impact assessment report.
Decisions in respect of aquaculture licence applications are only taken following the fullest consideration of all consultations and public interest elements. The Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine has responsibility for the licensing of seaweed cultivation, which at present operates on a very small scale. Responsibility for permitting the harvesting of wild seaweed rests with MARA, except in cases where the seaweed being harvested is located on the foreshore of a fishery harbour centre or is being harvested for the use, development or support of aquaculture or sea-fishing. In these cases, the Minister for agriculture is the appropriate Minister under the Foreshore Act. As of this month, we have 37 aquaculture sites licensed for the cultivation of aquatic plants, and we have 50 seaweed-related applications on hand, 31 of which are for new sites. I have provided the committee with the breakdown per county. We have four land-based applications for seaweed on hand and every effort is being made by the Department to expedite the determination of all the standing applications.
Mr. Rory Campbell:
I thank the committee for the invitation to speak today about BIM's role in seaweed harvesting and licensing. Wild harvesting of seaweed does not fall within the remit of Bord Iascaigh Mhara. However, BIM has worked since 2004 to support the development of the seaweed aquaculture sector in Ireland by delivering targeted technical assistance, applied research, and capacity building initiatives to underpin sustainable sector growth. Seaweed aquaculture in Ireland is a nascent but vital part of Ireland’s blue economy, with the sector demonstrating potential for sustainable growth, innovation and diversification within Ireland’s blue economy. In 2024, the sector was valued at approximately €500,000, producing 500 tonnes of biomass, and supporting 29 direct jobs. In recent years, the number of active production units has increased from eight to 11. While modest in scale, this growth reflects increasing commercial interest, expanding technical capability, and a gradual shift toward regenerative aquaculture practices.
At present, we estimate that 39 aquaculture licences, covering approximately 1,200 ha are under review with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. If subject to a positive determination, these sites represent a significant opportunity to scale production, strengthen rural coastal economies and enhance Ireland’s contribution to sustainable marine bio-resources. In 2024, BIM commissioned the completion of an Irish macro algae cultivation strategy to 2030 with the aim of developing a sustainable, profitable seaweed aquaculture sector. The strategic analysis led to the identification of multiple actions that are grouped into measures to build and sustain the sector, grow the market and safeguard the future.
In 2026, BIM's seaweed development programme will focus on de-risking innovation and enabling commercial scale through a co-ordinated programme of applied research, industry collaboration and knowledge transfer. Key areas of work will include demonstration of new culture systems, co-use of existing infrastructure, trialling direct seeding technologies, research on novel species, industry capacity building and the establishment of a dedicated seaweed working group.
Alongside and complementary to BIM’s development programme, BIM administers funding supports through the European Maritime and Fisheries Fund. Our current scheme in this area is the sustainable aquaculture scheme, which offers applicants up to 50% support for projects focusing on innovation, energy efficiency and animal health. Since 2022, BIM has awarded a total of €844,000 in grant aid support to 15 applicants in the seaweed aquaculture sector. The Irish farmed seaweed sector is well-positioned for sustainable expansion but requires targeted intervention to overcome technical and structural barriers. Through the 2026 seaweed development programme and beyond, BIM will continue its long-standing role in enabling sector development, supporting innovation, improving co-ordination, and creating clear pathways for producers to reach commercial size while maintaining high environmental and regulatory standards.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I should have said at the outset, ós rud é go bhfuil sé seo tábhachtach don Ghaeltacht, go bhfuil córas aistriúcháin ag obair anseo inniu. Má tá duine ag iarraidh labhairt i nGaeilge, beidh fáilte rompu agus beimid ábalta éisteacht i mBéarla ar an gcóras aistriúcháin.
With the Donegal dialect, I am sure everyone understood what I meant. Dr. Nolan will have either two minutes or five minutes. We have his contribution, so I ask for a synopsis.
Dr. Glenn Nolan:
I thank the committee for the invitation. I am the Marine Institute’s director of marine environment and food safety services. We work in support of the statutory remit of our agency. The Marine Institute Act 1991 established the Marine Institute as the State agency responsible for undertaking, co-ordinating, promoting and assisting in marine research and development, and providing services related to marine research and development that promote economic development, create employment and protect the marine environment.
We welcome the opportunity to discuss the important work that the institute undertakes and our scientific work that supports seaweed activities in Ireland. The work is consistent with the institute’s broad statutory role to provide the scientific evidence and technical expertise that can underpin policy decisions and robust management of marine resources. Our work across several key areas supports the development of the seaweed industry, informed by robust data and sound science. In summary, the Marine Institute’s contribution to seaweed harvesting and licensing takes the form of, first, summarising the value of the seaweed sector as part of the annual ocean economy report. Second, the institute provides seaweed licensing advice to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Third, we conduct targeted research and develop methods to assess Ireland’s seaweed resource and, fourth, we fund basic and applied research in academia, industry and government related to seaweed.
Our written submission further elaborates on the key areas of the institute's activities that support the seaweed harvesting and licensing process. We will be happy to take any questions the committee has on our work.
Ms Laura Brien:
I will take the five minutes but hope to get through faster. I am joined by Mr. John Evans, MARA's director of maritime usage licensing and planning advisory. I will outline the legislative requirements for harvesting wild seaweed, traditional harvesting rights, the role of MARA in implementing the Maritime Area Planning Act, and the need for a national policy on seaweed.
MARA is responsible for regulating development in Ireland's maritime area, which encompasses approximately 500,000 sq. km. MARA is central to the implementation of the system for the regulation of certain activities in the maritime area, including not only seaweed harvesting but also critical infrastructure related to offshore renewable energy, utilities, subsea cables and pipelines, ports and maintenance dredging. For clarity, to reiterate what our colleagues from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine said earlier, licensing of seaweed aquaculture and production is not within our remit.
Authorising the harvesting of wild seaweed has been a long-standing issue which predates the establishment of MARA. Prior to the Maritime Area Planning Act being implemented, any works or activities taking place on the foreshore were governed by the Foreshore Act, including the power to grant licences for harvesting wild seaweed. However, no such licences had been granted by the Minister between March 2014 and the establishment of MARA in July 2023, primarily related to concerns relating to impairing the rights of persons with traditional harvesting rights. The Maritime Area Planning Act sets out MARA's responsibility for licensing maritime usages relating to the harvesting, disturbance or removal of seaweed.
In our view, the legislation is clear and unambiguous. There is no distinction regarding the need to hold a licence between the holders of traditional seaweed rights under private law and those who have no rights at all. The MAP Act requires a maritime usage licence to collect or harvest seaweed, whether a person privately owns that section of the foreshore, holds other traditional seaweed harvesting rights or holds no rights at all. However, it should also be noted that existing rights holders have priority over new applications for licences, insofar that MARA cannot license another party over the rights of existing rights holders.
Where individuals are harvesting and-or collecting small volumes of seaweed for personal or domestic use and on a non-commercial basis, MARA considers such harvesting to be ordinary reasonable enjoyment of the maritime area. This is in line with a circular issued by the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment in August 2025. Such activities do not require a licence from MARA.
The MAP Act sets out the matters to which MARA must have regard when assessing any application for a maritime usage licence, MUL, including seaweed harvesting and collection. This includes having regard to the State's obligations under the environmental impact assessment directive, the birds and habitats directive, the water framework directive, the marine strategy framework directive and the extent to which the proposed activity is compatible with objectives of the national marine planning framework, as well as other Government policies. For all of the proposed activities, MARA consults other relevant public bodies and where the proposed activity screens in for appropriate assessment, in accordance with the habitats directive, a one-month period of public consultation is undertaken. When public consultation is undertaken, it provides existing seaweed harvesting rights holders an opportunity to comment or make a submission on the application at this point.
In terms of today, MARA has ten applications for the harvesting of wild seaweed on hand. All of these applications are under assessment with MARA. No decisions have been made in respect of these applications to date. All of our applications received by MARA are published on our website, together with any submissions received during the period of public consultation. MARA has also held 12 non-statutory pre-application meetings with potential applicants for seaweed harvesting. In these meetings, we provide potential applicants with guidance and information on any queries relating to a future licence application. When assessing an application, we must have regard to the national marine planning framework, NMPF, before granting a licence. With regard to seaweed harvesting, the NMPF aims to support sustainable seaweed harvesting having regard to its importance in a socioeconomic context to coastal communities, and developing and maintaining a fit-for-purpose regulatory framework.
In issuing licences, MARA needs clear policy guidance upon which to ground its decisions. Where such a policy framework has been established, such as the south coast DMAP for offshore renewable energy, it greatly facilitates effective and efficient decision-making processes. Where it is absent, such as for the wild seaweed harvesting sector, it can be a barrier to decision-making. MARA strongly encourages the Government to establish a strong policy framework for the wild seaweed sector in this regard.
I thank the committee and the Leas-Chathaoirleach for their attention. We are happy to respond to any questions they may have, although we would defer to not answering questions regarding specific applications that sit with us today.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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For the witnesses own guidance, the Chair will not allow specific questions. All questions will be of a general nature. Now, from Údarás na Gaeltachta, we will hear from Dr. Dearbháil Ní Chualáin. Tá dhá bhomaite nó cúig bhomaite aici.
Dr. Dearbháil Ní Chualáin:
Úsáidfidh mé cúig nóiméad. Tá ráiteas i nGaeilge curtha ar aghaidh agam, ach déanfaidh mé an ráiteas seo i mBéarla. Gabhaim buíochas leis an Leas-Chathaoirleach agus le comhaltaí an choiste. Táim an-bhuíoch den chuireadh atá tugtha dúinn inniu. Is stiúrthóir fiontar, fostaíochta agus inbhuanaitheachta mé. Taobh liom tá Máire Ní Éinniú, ceannasaí Nua na Mara, fochuideachta d'Údarás na Gaeltachta.
Údarás na Gaeltachta is the statutory regional authority responsible for the economic, social, cultural and linguistic development of the Gaeltacht, operating under the Údarás na Gaeltachta Act. Our primary purpose is to develop the Gaeltacht economy to preserve and enrich the Irish language as its principle language and to strengthen Gaeltacht communities so that they can sustain themselves, economically, socially and linguistically into the future.
Nearly 90% of the Gaeltacht is along Ireland's coast. The marine sector and blue economy is an important part of our mandate. We appear before this committee today, not as an advocate for any single interest. We appear as the statutory body that carries responsibility across the Gaeltacht, supporting the marine sector. We support enterprises that process and export seaweed products operating within coastal communities that have harvested these resources for generations and work to ensure that the marine environment on which both depend remains productive and healthy. We see all sides of this question from a position of statutory responsibility. It is from this broad vantage point that we offer our submission.
Seaweed harvesting on Ireland's western seaboard is one of our oldest maritime industries. It sits within Údarás na Gaeltachta's enterprise development mandate. Seaweed processing operations supported by Údarás na Gaeltachta provide direct and seasonal employment to significant numbers of people across the Gaeltacht coastal communities and are among the longest established employers on the Connemara coastline. Through our subsidiary, Nua Mara, at Carna research station, Ireland's first dedicated marine innovation centre, a new generation of enterprise is developing seaweed-derived bioplastics, high-value bioactive ingredients for food and pharmaceutical markets and community-based ecological monitoring systems for protected coastal waters.
These enterprises are conducted primarily through the Irish language, embedding in communities where the Irish language remains the daily language of work and life. The ecological and maritime knowledge of these communities, encompassing tidal cycles, plant expertise, patterns of growth and regeneration, and seasonal harvesting rhythms, have been developed over generations and is deeply rooted in local experience.
The long-term viability of Ireland's coastal seaweed beds is not a limitation to the sector. It is its most essential asset. Sustainable harvesting - rotational, hand-cut and calibrated to regeneration cycles - is entirely compatible with ecological integrity. Údarás na Gaeltachta acknowledges that MARA has made significant efforts to communicate clearly with the public on this complex framework. Údarás na Gaeltachta fully supports the principle of a robust, science-based licensing framework for seaweed harvesting. It does not have any direct operational role in relation to individual harvesters. That falls outside our mandate. However, the viability of our client companies depends entirely on a functioning, sustainable primary harvesting base.
Through Nua na Mara at Carna research station, Údarás na Gaeltachta is already supporting a new generation of enterprises, developing seaweed-based bioplastics, high-value bioactive ingredients for food and pharmaceutical markets, and community-based ecological monitoring systems. These enterprises represent the future of Ireland's blue economy in the Gaeltacht. Every one of these enterprises depends directly or indirectly on the viability of a licensed, sustainable, community-rooted seaweed harvesting sector.
Údarás na Gaeltachta wants to see a sustainable, well-regulated seaweed harvesting sector in the Connemara Gaeltacht. We want any company operating in this sector to have the legal certainty needed to operate and grow. We want traditional harvesters to have secure livelihoods and the additional employment opportunities that these licences would generate. We want all rights holders to have their property rights respected. None of these are in conflict. The concerns expressed by coastal communities can be fully addressed within a well-constructed licensing framework that properly acknowledges all existing rights, provides for ongoing monitoring and includes a clear, accessible pathway for rights holders that can deliver for all parties.
Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I strongly support the traditional harvesters. Our own should be the first to benefit, and that includes Irish companies.
MARA, which is responsible for regulation, should also be responsible for oversight. How is MARA performing on its 2024 to 2027 strategic plan? I am hearing there are huge delays in the issuing of maritime area consents and maritime usage licences. I have raised the prolonged delays in processing aquaculture licences a number of times, as the Leas-Chathaoirleach knows. Regarding MAC and MUL, can MARA provide set timeframes for license applications? In Kerry, I had huge problems progressing Renard pier and the slipway there, as well as a number of other projects throughout the county.
How many people are employed by MARA? Are they all based on the one site? How many public consultations has MARA had on MULs? How many members are on the board? Does the board meet monthly?
Ms Laura Brien:
I will try to take the questions in the best order I can. Currently, we have a staff headcount of 66 out of a maximum allowed headcount of 69. We have continued to operate a very active recruitment policy since we were established.
Those last three positions are currently under recruitment, so by the end of the second quarter of 2026 we expect to have a full complement of 69 people working at MARA. We have 11 members on the board and generally somewhere between six and eight board meetings taken place each year. The MARA board is a governance board so it oversees MARA's operations, but it is not a decision-making board with regard to individual decisions. I hope that answers those questions.
In terms of numbers of applications determined, and the number on hand, to date we have made determinations on 29 MULs. Actually, that is not correct. It is in fact 35, with approximately 33 on hand. Since we were established, we have focused primarily on high priority applications. We prioritised internally with regard to the applications that came in to us. Our prioritisation was primarily focused on key infrastructure projects such as offshore wind, ports, telecom cables, dredging and utilities. We have not yet processed to determination any seaweed licences. They are under assessment but they have not completed the assessment process. All of the applications are on our website and the Deputy can see we have gone out for public body consultation on those but no determination has yet been made.
I am trying to get through all the Deputy's questions. In terms of timelines, there are probably three stages to issuing a maritime usage licence. There is the initial assessment stage where we identify whether the application screens in for further appropriate assessment or whether the Natura impact statement provided by the applicant is complete. We are targeting that to be completed within 30 days of starting the assessment. If it is screened in for further assessment, there is a 30-day period for public consultation and, following that, we have a legislative requirement to complete the assessment and have it minded to determination of our licence, again within 30 days. To date, for approximately 70% of our licences we have completed that final minded to determination piece within 30 days of the closing of the public consultation period. We were open for business from day one when we were established in July 2023, even before we had staff recruited and ready to go. We are continuously improving our processes.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know whether Deputy Cahill is satisfied but his time has expired.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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I thank all the witnesses for coming in. I will get right into it. First, I want to speak to the witnesses from MARA. Small-scale harvesting for personal use does not require a licence. How is that defined? Would a small-scale harvester who sells small quantities of seaweed locally be required to hold a licence? I will give another scenario. I am from an island community off the Donegal coast, Arranmore Island. There is an abundance of seaweed all along the coast. How is this defined?
Ms Laura Brien:
To clarify, in August last year, the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment issued Circular MP01/2025, which clarified that "an activity which is non-commercial and constitutes an individual or group of individuals' ordinary reasonable enjoyment of the maritime area ... is not contemplated to be included in the application of the definition of maritime usage." Our interpretation of that is that if the harvesting is small-scale and for your own use, then no licence is required. If you are harvesting for your own use, we determine that to fall under the definition of "ordinary reasonable enjoyment of the maritime area".
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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There is no proper definition of it. When it is for your own use you could harvest it and turn it into whatever you want.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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That is fine. I will move on to Údarás na Gaeltachta.
Given the evidence of its client companies losing growth and opportunities due to licensing uncertainties, what is the economic impact of such uncertainties on Gaeltacht communities?
Dr. Dearbháil Ní Chualáin:
There is uncertainty there and that exists in other industries as well where there is legislative uncertainty. That is why we welcome the certainty that these changes bring. It is something that our client companies welcome as well. It is very hard to quantify the impact it has had on the economy and on our companies, but they welcome the coming changes and it is something that they are very open to.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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That is great. I thank Dr. Ní Chualáin. I have another question for BIM. What role does BIM have in supporting the wild harvesting of seaweed? Do wild harvesters benefit from BIM support?
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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Okay. That is fine. I will move on to the Department. The Department will publish the heads of a Bill to amend the Fisheries (Amendment) Act 1997 in order to update aquaculture licensing. Will the Bill have significant regard to seaweed aquaculture moving forward?
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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Okay. That is fine. My next question is for the Marine Institute. What is the Marine Institute's role in advising the Department on aquaculture licences and what are the key issues it examines as part of the process? Are there ways to improve the process?
Dr. Glenn Nolan:
Our role is to act as a technical adviser to the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Among our staff we have benthic ecologists, ornithology people who look at the impact on birds, habitats and so on, and also issues around the dispersion of chemicals and pollutants from certain marine activities. We provide that advice and the Department is part of the licensing process. We are a technical adviser to the Department.
We conduct our work in the most expedient manner that we can. As our colleagues in MARA alluded to, there are instances where we have to go back and clarify certain things but applications can take time. In general, if the appropriate information is provided to the Department and the Marine Institute we work very quickly to assess the impact on the marine environment and whether licensing an activity should be permitted. We do not make the decision but we give advice on it. Sometimes we also advise on the mitigation that might be applied in some cases to allow the activity to go forward, but with some licence conditions in place.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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I thank Dr. Nolan.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses very much. I am happy with the presentations. My first question is to MARA. I am just looking at the guidance on the website, which says there are transitional provisions currently so that anyone who has traditional rights or was active in harvesting prior to 2021 should make themselves known. How can someone prove they have harvesting rights if they do not have a folio and there is no tangible official document? How long would they have to show continued usage of a site?
Mr. John Evans:
It is a challenging question. Tailte Éireann has information on the number of folio rights that have seaweed registered to them.
In that case we have a known quantity. It is something people can point to. In the case of people who have traditional rights, it is a much more difficult thing for them to demonstrate and for us to assess. The approach we are proposing to take on that is that the person in question would need to demonstrate continued usage over a period of time.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Over what length of time?
Mr. John Evans:
It would need to be generational. They would need to give a declaration to us that that is the case. When we issue a licence on that basis, if another person presents with evidence that they in fact own those folio rights or traditional rights, the licence would be suspended and made void in that instance. That is the pragmatic approach that we are taking.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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How could they prove that? For example, if I came to you to say that I have been cutting here since I was 15, and my father also cut here, would that be sufficient for you or what evidence would be required?
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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It is as simple as an affidavit. They do not need any more evidence other than saying "I am swearing that this is the case." If someone else said similarly, the licence would be suspended and there would be an appeal on that basis. Essentially, if anyone out there is harvesting and they know it has been in the family, they need to get an affidavit. Is that actually explained anywhere for people? I am not sure whether that is being put out there.
Mr. John Evans:
I think it is set out in the guidance that we publish on our website, although maybe not to that explicit degree. We have to take a pragmatic approach. We are working off legislation that is very black and white, but this is an area where there are varying shades of grey. The main thing that people in that situation need to understand is that if someone else can demonstrate those rights, there is a problem there.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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I am not going to talk about individual licences. A number of licences are in place at the moment. Does MARA have to wait until after 2028 in order to assess them?
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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How can a licence be issued if people have not been given an opportunity to make a claim on their traditional rights?
Mr. John Evans:
In most cases, the licence application will be subject to public consultation because of its environmental impact. There will be an opportunity for people to present information on any licence application at that stage. The other thing I should say is that the best way for people to record their rights is with Tailte Éireann - they should go through that process to make sure they are recorded properly.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Have public consultations been held? Has MARA spoken to the different communities about how they can go about this process? There is a risk that people may not understand. One of the key concerns of Údarás na Gaeltachta is that there is not a specified pathway for people. It would appear that there potentially is, through this affidavit process. It beggars belief that the agency responsible for cultural and economic heritage and everything within the Gaeltacht is not aware that this is how this happens. Has there been communication in this regard? Until that happens and until there is a significant amount of time for people to lay claim to this, I do not believe that any licences should be allocated. Once they are allocated, those individuals will have a right that MARA has issued. Not only will they have a right but if, for example, a Canadian company was to be issued a licence under the recent SETA legislation and there is a change in Government policy, they will actually be able to claim for 20 years worth of profits that were lost. This could lay us open, as a State, to huge claims going forward. It seems to me that the homework has not been done in this regard.
Ms Laura Brien:
We are aware of the challenges around the existence of historic rights. There are two reasons we have been taking a very deliberative approach to the assessment of the applications that have come into us. The first reason is the ecological context. Basically, are these licence applications consistent with the amount of seaweed that can be processed within particular areas? The second reason is the impact on traditional rights and the obligation of any applicant to MARA to be able to demonstrate that they are not asking for a licence on top of existing rights.
We are at the starting point of this assessment process. A lot of the questions that were raised are exactly the questions that we are thinking about internally with regard to how to make sure we are not going to license a new user on top of the existing users. We are being very deliberative on that.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Some members did not get an opportunity because of the five-minute rule. If so, they can communicate in writing with the committee and get into consideration when we are assessing it. I call Deputy Mac Lochlainn.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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This is a mess. I appreciate MARA's honesty in its opening statement on the lack of a policy framework that it is operating under. It is being asked to issue licences with no policy framework. Indeed, we have been stuck legally for over a decade. However, we have testimony from traditional seaweed harvesters that nobody has engaged with them or helped them. In many cases, these are elderly people. I appreciate Mr. Evans's clarification that people can prove they have been involved in this generationally. However, who is actively on the ground? Who is engaging with all of these traditional seaweed harvesters? That is deeply alarming. I agree with Deputy Whitmore's point that, particularly in the case of a Canadian company, that it could be issued a licence. This is outrageous stuff. It is a collective failure of State and State agencies that have not engaged with these communities, have not sought to protect their rights.
I draw everybody's attention to the Supreme Court case of Barlow and others v. the Minister for Communications, Marine & Natural Resources and others. These were mussel operators in Waterford, Wexford, Donegal and Limerick. This is legal precedent in this State that Article 10 of the Constitution obliges our Government where we have natural resources to protect them, and not offer them for sale. The issue here, it could be argued back, is that the legal framework that MARA operates under provides the legal basis to do so. I do not know. MARA has been left in the situation by the State where there is not a policy framework. There has been an absolute abdication of responsibility by the State and its agencies to engage with those communities.
I want to delve deeper into this in terms of MARA, the Department and maybe to a lesser extent, Bord Iascaigh Mhara. All three delegations can answer this. How have they proactively engaged? We have had testimony that no engagement has taken place. Are they proactively engaging with traditional seaweed harvesters to vindicate their rights? Are they helping them to prove that they have rights? Is there anybody on the ground in these three agencies - MARA, Department of the marine and BIM - making this happen, ensuring that their rights are being vindicated and maybe putting a freeze on license applications until that is resolved? We have already lost 12 years. This is far too important to rush through now. I want to get real clarity on that.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I ask brief answers please.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Is there practical engagement? Is MARA reaching out, going into those communities? I will ask the same question of the Department of the marine and BIM.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is an honest answer. Is the Department of the marine proactively engaging, going into those communities and helping people to deal with this?
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Department aware that any Department is engaging with these seaweed harvesters?
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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There is then no Department engaging, to the knowledge of the Department of the marine. It is extraordinary that it is not engaging with seaweed harvesters. Neither the Department of the marine nor any other Department of which it is aware is engaging with seaweed harvesters to have these issues resolved.
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is fair enough. Is BIM aware of any proactive engagement with seaweed harvesters to help them to resolve these issues?
Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Here we have it. Not a single agency of this State has proactively engaged, even though the Attorney General has ruled on this matter, to assist lay people who have been involved in traditional seaweed harvesting to vindicate their rights. That is how we are in this mess. I will leave it at that.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy. Needless to say we will take that into consideration when we are discussing this in private session.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Ar an pointe céanna, can I just clarify something? MARA has advised us that it seeks intergenerational proof of traditional rights. Am I correct that Tailte Éireann has a facility or mechanism whereby people can register their traditional rights?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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On that point, I may have been misled on this but is there period of 60 years duration for which proof has to be provided of traditional rights in a family?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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In the absence of the Minister and in the context of the point that MARA has made here about the necessity of developing a policy on harvesting wild seaweed, is the Department progressing the development of that policy?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Is it under housing?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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MARA told us of the need for a policy and that it has sought one. Is it aware that the Department is progressing that?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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At what point in the current licensing process does public consultation come into play? Outside of the statutory bodies that MARA has to consult with, at what point is there a period of public consultation where anybody can make a submission on a licence application?
Mr. John Evans:
Under the legislation that we operate, public consultation only arises where there has been an appropriate assessment that determined that the application needs to be screened in for full appropriate assessment. The consultations we conduct with other public bodies are on a non-statutory basis but they are very important to gather the information we need to make an assessment.
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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Who undertakes the appropriate assessment? Is it MARA or is it the applicant?
John Connolly (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The point that was made earlier is very welcome, namely that existing rights holders have priority over new applications for licences. MARA cannot licence another party over the right of existing rights holders and that is obviously very reassuring for existing rights holders. Mr. Evans outlined the process to Deputy Whitmore earlier. It might be the case that an existing traditional rights holder had not been recognised but a new licence can be repealed if that subsequently comes to light. Is there a specific process by which it must or can be repealed?
David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I am someone who does not know much but who has been listening all morning. I have a couple of questions following on from Deputy Whitmore's questions. My family owns a foreshore. My grandfather harvested seaweed but my father did not and neither did I. Now I want to harvest seaweed. If I get an affidavit because my grandfather harvested in the 1950s and 1960s, does that give me a right?
Mr. John Evans:
I would be reluctant to answer that directly on the basis that every application is different and it will fall to the circumstances of every application. This is the position we find ourselves in. Every application has to be examined. I would make the point that the scale of the applications we are receiving varies in size from tens of hectares to several thousand hectares so we have to take them on a case-by-case basis.
David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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If one of the corporations came in and looked for a licence on my foreshore, would it get it?
David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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Does that then go back to what Deputy Whitmore said with regard to CETA? Let us say a Canadian corporation comes in and gets a licence to farm my foreshore. Then MARA finds out that I should have got that licence and it takes the licence from that corporation. Does that open us up to problems?
Ms Laura Brien:
While we have not got there yet and have not completed a full assessment process, we do actively put conditions on licences in general. I am not predicting what we are going to do in this instance, but we would certainly be considering things such as putting conditions in the licence that said the licence is subject to no other licence holder having the right within this area and in the event that there is another licence holder, this licence is then void or rescindable. To go back to an earlier point, people harvesting or collecting small volumes of seaweed for personal or domestic use do not need a licence. That would come back to a particular situation, if it was within that. It is only those collecting seaweed for commercial use or collecting extremely large volumes who need to apply for a usage licence from MARA. We want to make it clear that small-scale traditional harvesters are not required to hold a licence within the confines of the circular issued by the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment last summer.
David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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This morning, Mr. Ó Curraoin said he was harvesting seaweed for use as a fertiliser. If I want seaweed to fertilise my own ground, I do not need a licence.
David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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There is a problem, however, if my grandfather did it and eked a living out of it, for example, and my father got a job somewhere else in Galway or in the Gaeltacht and so did I, in that there is money in this now. I read somewhere that it is going to be worth €22 billion by 2028. These companies are investing millions in factories so there is money here. If I can get a licence, I can make a living on my land from foreshore harvesting seaweed in an eco-friendly way. These companies are not coming in for the good of their health or to protect our shorelines. They are in it to make a pound and that is fair enough. That is business and that is what makes the world go around. When do we hope to get to a stage where people who are applying for licences can get them? It seems to be going on for years but we do not seem to be moving on. Maybe I have read that wrong but from what we heard this morning, it is going on for years and nobody can get their head around it and try to get it sorted.
Mr. John Evans:
The Deputy has hit on the policy challenges that we face. We have to get through them as best we can on a case-by-case basis. When we look at some of the recording of rights that exist on folios today, some of them make reference to the right to gather seaweed by donkey. This is an activity that has been going on for a very long time but we are now in a modern era so it needs to be examined in that context.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I thank all of the witnesses for coming in this afternoon. It is very clear that the whole issue of the foreshore and ownership of same is incredibly vague at the moment. Does MARA, as the regulator, have a responsibility to first ensure that we have proper mapping of the foreshore, and proper identifying of the native harvesters who have long-standing traditional harvesting rights, before any application is considered?
Ms Laura Brien:
In that sense, there are two aspects to an assessment that we would be doing. The first is the ecology, which is how much seaweed grows in the area and how much can be harvested. The second piece then is the existing rights and who has rights there. There is a role for Tailte Éireann in mapping with regard to the tracking of folios that have rights attached to them. We are not a science agency. We are a licensing agency. We have neither the skill set nor the mandate to do the ecological mapping of what the carrying capacity is.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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In the absence of that mapping-----
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Allow Ms Brien.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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If I can, Chair-----
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, the Deputy can, after Ms Brien is finished.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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I appreciate the point the witness is making but-----
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, it is normal and reasonable that the Deputy allows Ms Brien to finish. Then the Deputy can ask the other question. Is Ms Brien finished?
Ms Laura Brien:
Let me make one more point. Today, when an applicant comes in to us, we put the onus on them to do that mapping piece to identify where they want a licence. We require them to give us the information with regard to the area and their assessment of what the growth area is of the wild seaweed. We do not actively do that mapping. We require the applicant to come in and be able to demonstrate to us that they know what is there and that the area can sustain the level of harvesting they are proposing to do.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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The point I am trying to make is that in the absence of a clear mapping system, it is difficult for MARA, as the regulator, to issue any licence because issuing a licence to a large-scale commercial seaweed harvester, in a vacuum of a lack of information, will potentially ensure that an application may be successful and encroach upon the native harvesting rights. That is the key point that must be addressed before any large-scale application should be considered.
In terms of the licensing, 2028 is coming down the tracks. The applicants will have to pay €2,000 to MARA as well as provide a significant amount of ecological and environmental reports. Currently, there is no distinction between the large-scale companies and the small traditional harvesters. In Ms Brien's view, should there be a distinction? This is because that barrier will potentially push a lot of small harvesters in terms of their ability to even apply.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Perhaps that is a question to the Department then.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It seems all of your answers have been that the Department has no input. What is the Department's involvement?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Can I ask a question on aquaculture then? Is Mr. Batt satisfied with the current system of self-regulation whereby individual companies are monitoring themselves? What compliance is currently in place in relation to ensuring that a fair harvest of seaweed is happening?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
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Yes. I am referring to seaweed harvesting on the coast.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Making a distinction. You were also talking about all types as fish as well and shellfish.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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As for those who are harvesting seaweed, if somebody took a-----
David Maxwell (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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On a point of clarification, that person who gets a licence to cultivate the seaweed goes and harvests it, but it is the ordinary person going down to the foreshore that Mr. Batt's Department has nothing to do with.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There are less than ten minutes left and I want to ask one or two questions relating to MARA. When someone applies for a licence, whether as an individual or a company, where do they advertise that? Is it nationally or locally? When it goes for public consultation, where does MARA advertise the public consultation? Is it online or in the national media?
Mr. John Evans:
Any application is published on our website. All applications can be viewed there. That is a form of consultation. People can have a view of that.
The legislation currently does not require that an applicant, on application, has to advertise that they are taking an application. That is not required. If it emerges that the application is subject to appropriate assessment and the public consultation is required under that, the applicant is required to place an advertisement in a national and a local newspaper.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Are they required to place a notice, as they do for planning applications, on or at the site?
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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If someone wants to build a shed, to put it mildly, in the country, they have to advertise that they are applying for planning permission so that everyone can see it. The people involved in harvesting who I have represented over the years, and continue to represent, all need to be computer literate and have computers. It can happen that it can slip through. If it is in the newspapers, it can slip through very easily but at least it is in the local newspapers. It is not in any newspapers. I believe that is something that consideration should be given to.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Not at the point of applying, however.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Would it make any difference if it was advertised at the initial stages? Does the current position deprive people who want to object of their rights?
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps we will discuss in committee if it can be done at public consultation. It should mirror what happens in planning applications.
How long does MARA have to process an application? Is there a statutory number of months?
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Is that a decision within 30 days?
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Whitmore may ask one short question.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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Ms Brien stated that environmental considerations are an important part of this process and that it is important that any application is consistent with the amount of seaweed that is there. I would query whether we have that data available to us. Ms Brien stated that at present it is self-declared as such by the applicant and that the monitoring is self-regulated. What is there to prevent a company or an individual getting a licence and completely over-harvesting to the point that it wipes a particular seaweed population out in a particular area?
Ms Laura Brien:
There are two things there. The first is when they apply for a licence to us, we require them to provide us with the scientific basis on which they are proposing the volume that they would be harvesting and we assess that for reasonableness. As I said, we have not yet gone through that. We are doing that with the first ones. Second, we put conditions in all our licences. Again, we have not gone through it for seaweed yet but I imagine that when we get to that stage, we will be specifying a volume of seaweed that can be harvested.
We have a compliance and enforcement team in place in MARA. It looks at compliance with regard to all of our current licenses and our maritime area consents. It would then have a role in assessing compliance of any seaweed harvester with the conditions that are put on their license.
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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How many people would be on that team?
Jennifer Whitmore (Wicklow, Social Democrats)
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How many ecologists are in that?
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Is there is a short question from either Deputy Maxwell or Deputy Connolly? No. Dá bhrí sin, sin deireadh leis an gcruinniú. Ar ndóigh, beimid ag plé seo ag cruinniú príobháideach den choiste amach anseo agus feicfimid céard a dhéanfaimid ansin. Cuirim mo bhuíochas in iúl do na finnéithe a tháinig anseo inniu agus a thug cur i láthair. Gabhaim buíochas leo siúd ón Roinn Talmhaíochta, Bia agus na Mara, ón mBord Iascaigh Mhara, ón Marine Institute agus ó MARA as na ceisteanna a d’fhreagair siad. Sin deireadh leis an gcruinniú agus tá súil agam go gcasfaimid le chéile amach anseo arís.