Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received from Senator Nikki Bradley.

Everybody is very welcome this morning. Today we are resuming our discussion on technology, social media and children. We have been talking about this topic for a while. We are really excited that today the committee will have its first engagement with young people. We are joined from the National Youth Council of Ireland by Róisín O'Neill and Oisín Ó Dubhshláine, members of its youth advisory group, and Niamh Flynn, youth 2030 capacity development and training officer; from Youth Work Ireland by Aisling Maloney and Franek Dobronski; from Webwise by Orla Hanratty and Sarah Davitt, members of its youth advisory panel, and Jane McGarrigle, national co-ordinator; and from the Office of the Ombudsman for Children by Emilia de Búrca, member of its youth advisory panel. They are accompanied by Dr. Niall Muldoon, Ombudsman for Children, who is no stranger to this committee. Shakar Ali, from the Ombudsman for Children's Office youth advisory panel has been delayed but will join us later. They are all very welcome.

Technology, social media and children is a really important topic and we have been focusing on the safety and well-being of children online. Over recent months the committee has had a number of meetings on this topic with stakeholders, departmental officials etc. Today we will hear from the most important people, the people who are actually affected by this topic. We are really delighted to have them here. It is an honour and a privilege to have children and young people appearing before the committee this morning. I assure all those present that the members of this committee take very seriously the provisions under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, particularly in relation to engagement with children and ensuring their right to be heard and their involvement in decision making which may have an impact on their lives.

Members of the committee also recognise the valuable perspective that young people can bring to the committee's discussions on policy and legislative matters under its consideration. While we have a small number of individuals presenting to the committee this morning, I acknowledge that they all work collectively with other members in their respective panels and organisations in preparing for this engagement. Some of their peers are present today in the Public Gallery and they are also very welcome. I extend the gratitude of committee members to all the members of the groups represented today who might not be in the room. I am sure some are at school and doing other very important things. I know a lot of work went into getting here today.

This is the first of two public meetings with children and young people on this topic. It is the aim of members to engage with children and young people on all the thematic topics that we consider on our work programme. Next week we will have representatives from Springboard Family Support Project, Foróige and Youth Advocate Programmes Ireland.

Before we begin, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through. No members are appearing on Microsoft Teams. Regarding parliamentary privilege - committee members are well used to this - witnesses and members are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee today. This means they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege. It is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks, and it is imperative that they comply with any such direction.

I will take a moment to explain what all that means. It sounds like you are in a courtroom, but that is not the case. It basically means that if a situation arises during the meeting where comments are made that really should not be made, I will ask you to stop making those comments and it is expected that you would listen to my advice. I am obliged to advise all witnesses of this protocol at the start of every meeting. I am absolutely confident that the people here today will be very respectful.

The witnesses who are making opening statements will be given three minutes each. I know one witness has been delayed. We will start going through the opening statements and we might then go to questions from members, after which we can go back to the remaining opening statement just to give everybody their opportunity today. I know there are delays with trains, planes and all kinds of things. If witnesses need a break for any reason during the meeting, they can either indicate to the adult accompanying them or to me and I will facilitate a comfort break. Headphones are provided in front of all the witnesses as I believe somebody is giving an opening statement in Irish, which is a first for this committee and it is great that it has taken children to do that. I thank them for that. In front of all the witnesses are channel and volume buttons. It will be channel 1. Most should be said at 1 but if not, people can use the buttons to get there.

I will call the witnesses in the following order. We will start with the youth advisory group from the National Youth Council of Ireland followed by Youth Work Ireland, Webwise and then the youth advisory panel of the Ombudsman for Children. If its member does not arrive, we will go back to that later.

I will now proceed to invite the witnesses to make their opening statements.

Ms Róisín O'Neill:

We are here to discuss the topic of technology, social media and children, with a focus on the safety and well-being of children online. Our involvement with the National Youth Council of Ireland’s youth advisory group brought us here today. We can consider the benefits as well as risks of social media in young people’s lives. It provides a medium for self-exploration, expression, advocacy and education. However, young people are struggling to experience these benefits in our current digital environment, where algorithms favour shocking and aggressive content. This, paired with a lack of critical digital literacy education across generations and a limited understanding of social media as run by private companies with their own motivations, makes online spaces challenging to navigate effectively as an individual user. Therefore, we want support for young people and for our parents and guardians to navigate the online world critically and safely. We want to be part of the mainstream conversations, not shut out and pushed further into the darker, less regulated, less safe online spaces. As stated by Sunita Bose, managing director of Digital Industry Group Inc., "Swimming has risks, but we don’t ban young people from the beach – we teach them to swim between the flags." Considering this, we ask if a ban would address the risks that people are worried about, such as harmful content, toxic trends, and mis- and disinformation. We believe these risks require a variety of considered, well-thought-through solutions. Young people want realistic, nuanced, evidence-based, targeted solutions to the complex problems that social media poses. A blanket ban for a portion of society does not satisfy these criteria.

Mr. Oisín Ó Dubhshláine:

Fáiltímid roimh an straitéis náisiúnta dhigiteach agus intleacht shaorga, ach glacaim nóta de nach bhfuil sé ar fáil as Gaeilge. Fáiltímid ach go háirithe roimh oideachas do gach glúin agus roimh an gcreatlach um shábháilteacht ar líne. Ó shuirbhé na meán sóisialta 2025, tuigtear gur chreid beirt as gach triúr idir 15 agus 24 bliana d’aois go raibh bréagaisnéis feicthe acu ar na meáin shóisialta. Tá sé soiléir ón méid seo go bhfuil gá le béim a chur ar scileanna anailíse criticiúla in áit choisc.

Tuigtear anois ó K.G.M. v. Meta et al go ndeartar na hardáin le halgartaim mholtóireachta a chuireann le neart andúile. Léirítear é seo mar bhaol ar leith do dhaoine óga maidir le hábhar a chuireann fireannacht agus róil thraidisiúnta inscne chun cinn agus ábhar a bhaineann le gnáthnósanna ite míshláintiúla. Ní mór dúinn a chuimhneamh gurb é príomhchuspóir na gcorparáidí ilnáisiúnta meáin shóisialta brabús a chruinniú agus fógraí a dhíoladh.

Le baol i spásanna digiteacha a laghdú, ní mór go mbeadh comhráite ann idir ionadaithe Rialtais, ionadaithe sochaí sibhialta, daoine óga agus na comhlachtaí a bhaineann brabús ó na meáin shóisialta agus ón ábhar a roinntear ann. Tá sé ráite ag an Rialtas gur mian leis daoine óga a choimeád sábháilte. Sílimid go mbeadh a mhalairt i gceist le cosc trí dhaoine óga a bhrú chuig spásanna gan rialacháin, mar atá ráite ag Comhghuaillíocht Chearta na Leanaí. Mar mhalairt air sin, chuirfeadh rialacháin ar chomhlachtaí atá ag feidhmiú in Éirinn le spás níos sábháilte do chách. Ní hiad daoine óga na baol a bhaineann leis an spás digiteach agus ní laghdófar na baol céanna má bhaintear iad. Mar atá ráite againn, is mó seans gur in olcas a chuirfeadh sé an scéal.

Ms Aisling Maloney:

We are here as young people to share a simple but important message: children do not need to be removed from the online world; they need to be better protected within it. Social media is a central part of young people’s lives. It is where we learn, connect and participate in society. It can support identity, provide community and give young people a voice, especially young people whose voices are not always heard in these decision-making conversations. At the same time, we are increasingly exposed to harmful content, cyberbullying and systems designed to keep us online for as long as possible.

Too often, the conversation focuses on individual responsibility by telling young people to spend less time online or parents to better control usage. The evidence shows that the risks we face are not just about behaviour but are shaped by platform design. Features like infinite scroll, autoplay and algorithmic recommendations are built to maximise attention and profit, not well-being. The question is not simply how we limit children’s access to technology but how we ensure that digital spaces are safe by design. From our perspective, this requires a shift towards systemic accountability. Existing frameworks already provide strong foundations, but they must be fully implemented and enforced. Platforms should be required to assess the impact of their systems on children, ensure high privacy settings by default and reduce exposure to harmful content.

At the same time, we must be cautious about calls for blanket bans or overly restrictive age limits. These approaches can be ineffective, easily bypassed and risk excluding young people from important sources of support, information and participation.

Mr. Franek Dobronski:

Building on this, we believe that protecting children online also means investing beyond regulation. Digital safety is not only about what happens on a screen; it is also shaped by what exists offline. When youth spaces, clubs and services are underfunded or inaccessible, young people are pushed further into online environments without support. That is why youth work, education, and digital literacy are essential. Media literacy should not be a one-off lesson but a continuous part of education, equipping children with the skills to critically engage with content, recognise misinformation and understand how platforms shape what they see. Youth workers, educators and services also need proper resourcing to support young people dealing with online harm, including mental health impacts, cyberbullying and exposure to harmful content.

We emphasise that responsibility must be shared but not shifted. Parents and schools play a role, but they cannot carry the burden alone while platforms profit from attention-driven systems. If we are serious about children’s well-being, regulation must address the business models and design choices that amplify harm. We encourage the committee to focus on three key priorities: enforce and strengthen existing regulation to ensure platforms are safe by design; invest in media literacy, youth work and offline supports; and include young people as partners in shaping the policies that affect us. Effective solutions will not come from restricting young people but from building a digital environment that respects our rights, protects our well-being and supports us to thrive.

Ms Sarah Davitt:

I am a third year student and member of the Webwise Youth Panel, which is a group of 35 students from across Ireland. I recently travelled to Brussels as part of the Better Internet for Kids youth panel, made up of youth representatives from all over Europe, to discuss our views on issues we face online such as social media bans and age verification.

Ms Orla Hanratty:

I am in a fifth-year student. I became a member of the Webwise Youth Advisory Panel last September. Discussing topics such as AI, privacy, peer pressure online, mental health and well-being, digital citizenship and our future with my fellow panel members has shown me how important it is that young people's voices are heard in decisions that affect us. Having a smartphone in 2026 means you are connected to the rest of the world 24-7, and this has been a fact of life for our generation from a very early age. We as a panel can definitely acknowledge and appreciate the positives of social media and the online world. You can easily learn new things, see other ways of life and, perhaps most importantly, find community online.

These days, young people are more digitally literate than ever, but just because we are so-called digital natives does not mean we are immune to the risks posed to us online. Two of the most imminent risks in the online world faced by young people are deepfakes and unregulated algorithms. According to a 2023 review, "State of Deepfakes: Realities, Threats, and Impact", deepfake pornography makes up 98% of all deepfake videos online, and 99% of the individuals targeted in deepfake pornography are women. As a young woman I do not think I am alone in feeling terrified hearing those statistics. Gen Z is often viewed as the woke generation, but I believe that algorithms are beginning to drag us back towards the past by promoting regressive and discriminatory ideologies. Algorithms prioritise engagement above all else, and hateful, violent and polarising content generates much more engagement than facts or tolerant conversations.

Ms Sarah Davitt:

We believe education is the way forward. The other youth members and I are very passionate about more being done through education. Currently there is very little consistency in how digital education is taught in secondary schools. For example, subjects like digital media literacy are still optional. As much as we would like to believe that banning will fix the online issues, it will not. All this does is shield kids from the opportunity to find a community, keep up to date and stay connected with the world. This is their future, our future. Kids are going to be online, it is just whether they are going to be safe online or not. By educating from an early age, we can help keep them safe online.

We would also like to see a safety by design approach in the online world. Making social media safe by design keeps kids online while keeping them safe. It also tackles issues such as unrealistic standards, disinformation and encountering harmful content that affects our whole community. Safety by design will mean algorithms are more catered to kids or age-appropriate content for the user. This will in turn help solve the issue of harmful content.

Ms Orla Hanratty:

We have two key recommendations to the committee. The first is to increase Government pressure on the companies behind these social media platforms.

Responsibility to stay safe cannot and should not fall solely on individual users, parents or schools; systemic change must come from the platforms themselves. Companies must be held to higher levels of accountability for not enforcing safety regulations. Stronger oversight, clearer consequences for non-compliance and mandatory safety standards are essential.

Ms Sarah Davitt:

The second recommendation is to expand and strengthen digital media literacy education nationwide for children, young people and parents. Young people and adults in Ireland are increasingly accepting online content at face value. On top of that, AI-generated misinformation is becoming more realistic and harder to detect. Critical thinking, source checking and understanding how platforms work must become core skills that are taught consistently across schools and communities.

We urge strong enforcement to hold tech companies accountable and a nationwide expansion of digital media literacy education in order that joined up education, stronger safeguards and built-in well-being supports are in place across platforms, schools and society.

We thank members for their attention. We are happy to answer any questions they may have.

Mr. Shakar Ali:

I thank the Chairperson and the committee for inviting the Ombudsman for Children's office, OCO, here today to discuss the topic technology, social media and children, with a focus on the safety and well-being of children online. We are here today on behalf of the OCO youth advisory panel. Our youth advisory panel, YAP, is made up of young people, aged 13 to 17, from all parts of Ireland and our role is to make sure that children's voices are at the heart of the OCO's work to promote and protect children's rights.

Over the past 12 months, children's rights in the online world have been a major focus of the YAP's work. Our 2025 reports, One Size Does Not Fit All and AI and Us, highlighted the panel's views on the impact of smartphone bans and AI on children's rights. In our view, the online world offers a lot of potential for children to enjoy their rights. However, for that to happen, more must be done by those in power to ensure that it is a safe and inclusive space for every child and young person.

For many YAP members, the main benefit of the online world and social media is its power to connect young people and allow them to express themselves freely. Article 15 of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child guarantees our right to form connections and engage with other young people who share our passions and interests. Today, this right is just as relevant for young people online as it is offline. In fact, due to the shortage of free, accessible physical spaces where teenagers can socialise, be creative and explore their interests outside of school hours, the online world has to fill a gap. For many, it is a space of connection and exploration, particularly for young people who are marginalised.

However, young people want action taken in order that they can feel safe in the online world. One area we particularly wish to bring to the committee's attention is the harmful impact of misinformation. Regular exposure to misinformation online violates our right under the UNCRC to receive information that supports our development and well-being. While the Internet and social media give us immediate access to a vast source of knowledge, children and young people are too easily targeted with misleading or inaccurate information. YAP members have expressed particular concern about misinformation around healthcare, dieting advice, harmful lifestyle trends and far-right, discriminatory content. This kind of material often tries to polarise young people and stir up feelings of anger, which can be damaging for our health and well-being. In an OCO survey published last year on extremism and discrimination, 63% of young people said they came across views they would consider extreme online, compared to just 6% in real life. This can lead to young people forming discriminatory attitudes and possibly placing their rights, and the rights of others, at risk.

We have serious concerns about how algorithms use our personal data to target us with this type of harmful content, undermining our right to privacy. Additionally, these systems are designed to target young people with material that will keep them engaged for as long as possible. As members will be aware, a recent court case in the US found that two tech giants were liable for designing addictive platforms. Spending excessive time on social media, especially when engaging with harmful content, can have a damaging impact on young people's mental health and potentially lead to addictive behaviours, undermining our right to health.

Ms Emilia de Búrca:

As we sit here today, several countries are exploring the possibility of banning young people from social media as a way of addressing some of the harm they cause. However, we do not believe this offers a meaningful solution. It simply puts the onus on teenagers to stay off social media rather than making social media channels safer in the first place. In our view, bans are a quick fix for decision-makers and fail to address many of the underlying issues beneath online harm. Bans deny young people access to the benefits of the online world and we feel that, in practice, they would be difficult to enforce, given how ineffective existing age-verification technology can be.

Instead, we also want more emphasis on digital literacy within the school curriculum in order that all young people can develop healthy habits and responsible behaviours online. We need the skills to identify misleading or inaccurate content. However, it is not just young people who need this education; parents, guardians and teachers play a vital role in supporting us to navigate the online world safely and responsibly. As such, they too must feel confident that they have the knowledge to offer effective guidance.

Education, however, is only one piece of the puzzle; social media companies themselves must play their part and so must the governments that regulate them. Like any business, social media companies have a fundamental duty to make sure that the young people using their products are kept safe. Companies must also guarantee that they will prioritise young people's privacy, safety and well-being when designing products they can access freely. As the online health task force has recommended, if toys are required to have a CE mark to make sure they are safe for children, why should social media sites not also have to prove that they are up to standard? Young people do not want to encounter dangerous or upsetting material online, but if they do, all social media platforms should have visible, easy to use and effective ways for young people to report it. We also need to feel confident that when we do report harmful content or misinformation, it will be quickly removed. There should be strong legal requirements on companies to tackle the issue of harmful algorithms and to prevent children encountering misinformation or extremist content via their platforms. More importantly, however, the Government must make sure that companies genuinely comply with these requirements and, if they do not, face serious sanctions.

The online world has a direct impact on many of our rights as young people, both positively and negatively, so when decisions are being made that will affect this part of our lives, it is crucial that we are listened to and that our views are considered, as is required by Article 12 of the UNCRC. We thank the committee again for this opportunity to speak to members today and look forward to discussing this topic further.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Go raibh maith agaibh go léir for all your opening statements, and well done. It is proposed to publish the opening statements to the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Before I call on members, I will explain to the witnesses what is going on because it can be strange to have people coming in and out and so on. They will see we have screens displaying the Dáil and Seanad proceedings. There are questions happening in the Dáil. There are also multiple committee rooms down here, which they will have seen. Sometimes members come and go because they have different responsibilities and different meetings, so please do not take any offence to that. When I go to the members, they will have seven minutes, and that has to include their questions and answers. Out of respect for the rota and the fact that people are in different places, I will be really strict on time. At seven minutes I will ding my glass, and then if people are still talking with ten seconds over, I will furiously ding the glass. That is just to make sure that everybody gets a chance to ask their question and get to the other committees or where they need to be. With that, I ask members to try to adhere strictly to the agenda and be as respectful as we possibly can with our extra special witnesses. As regards the order we will start with, at the moment it looks like Deputy Aisling Dempsey, then Deputy Ruairí Ó Murchú and then Senator Margaret Murphy O'Mahony.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I am glad the Chair explained about our coming and going. I am watching the screen with bated breath because my question will come up soon in the Dáil, but I am really interested in hearing the witnesses' views and I thank them all for being here. It is really good to see young people confident and able to speak in public. They did themselves and their schools and organisations proud today. I thank them for that.

I want to start with our engagement with the witnesses. This is a very formal setting and probably not how they are used to engaging with people regularly. I hope they enjoy the day, but how do we engage with them just on regular topics? What is the best way?

We open public consultations all the time. They can be online and in written form. How do we reach people when we are talking about these really important topics? How do you want us to engage? It is clear you know what you want us to deliver but how do we speak to you? That is for anyone who has thoughts on it.

Ms Orla Hanratty:

I appreciate that the Deputy is reaching out and she wants to make the effort to talk to young people. To keep engaging in conversations like these is the best thing she can do is to encourage those around her in her party, in other committees, in government and all of her other colleagues to do the same and keep reaching out to people, supporting the organisation like the youth panel, Webwise and everyone here today.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Orla. She mentioned critical thinking. It really worries me. One of the youngest TDs spoke earlier about a project he did in school. He talked about all the resources. He had to go to libraries and different organisations, and he got research off a community group. He said he put the same topic into Google or whatever it was and had the whole essay in 30 seconds that took him three months when he was in school to put together. We learnt critical thinking instinctively. We had projects to do and we had to. I worry for young people these days that they do not. Orla spoke about being considered woke and that we are regressing. I do think that. What are her views on how we tackle that critical thinking piece?

Ms Orla Hanratty:

It definitely has to start from the ground up. It has to be done in schools. I think everybody agreed on that today. Adults need to be encouraged to learn about it too. I am sure the Deputy and everybody present has seen some of the quite terrifying things online especially recently with the protests - the AI pictures of politicians or things going on. It is very frightening looking at the number of comments underneath posts agreeing with them. The best thing is to start in schools. When we put critical thinking into use, it is most important that we use it to analyse things we see online but like the Deputy said about researching projects in school, it can be taught in other ways than just showing kids is a picture AI or not. It is important to think critically when talking about this and analysing things we see online but in everyday life as well. It can be taught in so many ways, encouraging more proactive thinking and analysing everything we see around us.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Does anyone else want to come in, although I am really enjoying this over and back with Orla? One way we need to help young people is to provide different things other than the online world for them. We cannot shirk our responsibility to give facilities and other activities for them to do. Local authorities get stuck on would a skate park not be great for young people who do not play sport but what activities and facilities do the witnesses need as young people? Is it somewhere they can go online as a community together? Do they want community hubs? What can we do to make the online world a bit safer for them in a community base?

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Did Aisling want to come in on the previous point?

Ms Aisling Maloney:

I just wanted to come in on the first question the Deputy asked about how to engage with youth. No matter what approach you take whether you are doing outreach in schools, inviting groups to Leinster House or any other initiatives, it is important that youth participation and engagement is meaningful. For that, young people need to be involved at all stages of the process. We have great youth participation structures here in Ireland through different Comhairle na nÓg, the National Youth Assembly and the different Youth Work organisations we all represent. Young people need to be involved in the process, not just once-off consultations or conversations. We need to be involved at the beginning of these processes and throughout the implementation and in the monitoring and review as well. Throughout that we need spaces to come together and work together and the resources and the funding because that is what drives youth organisations. We cannot do our work or represent the voices of other young people if we do not have the support behind us. That would be my approach. Whatever approach you take, make sure it is meaningful.

Mr. Shakar Ali:

I wanted to answer the question on how to build community hubs. Foróige has a good understanding of how to do this. There is a place in Sligo called The Crib. It is my idea when I think of building community hubs for teenagers to communicate and gather. It is done very well although it is only once a week. All those other times we all have to resort to online interactions. If there were services set up all around Ireland like The Crib all week round it would help to solve this issue.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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As Deputy Dempsey said, that was excellent and far more eloquent than I am going be now so I apologise There is a certain theme across the board. I recall dealing with a number of young people in another committee previously. The first thing they said when we spoke about teaching resilience, digital literacy and critical analysis was the problem as far as they saw it was not necessarily with young people. The problem is with adults as well. I imagine with lot comments that were mentioned, it was not under 18s making them. I even had a couple made about myself as difficult as that it is to believe. It is two things. I can remember a time when Facebook was not a thing. That is before talking about TikTok or anything like that; I try to do as little speaking about Twitter as possible. They are huge corporations with huge influence. Even from a governmental point of view, there is always a fear factor because of the gains in taxation and employment, etc., which is all important but the problem is social media is the Wild West. Even compared with a couple of years ago, it is an absolute cesspit. We have seen successful cases against Meta on a straightforward basis - you have all said it - that platforms have been built to be addictive and keep people engaged because when they do, they make more money. These companies do not particularly care what keeps people engaged. The problem is what keeps them engaged is awful stuff that emotionally detonates. It is not necessarily great. The other thing is they use your own information against you. It can push any of us to a particular place. The fact is advertising works otherwise Coca Cola and McDonalds would not spend millions on it every year. I imagine we would all agree there needs to be far more pressure on those companies, we need to ensure they cannot misuse information on people and almost use it against them and they have to be held accountable for the absolute harm they do. All of us also need to learn critical analysis so that we do not accept everything thrown at us. As I said, that is not just about young people; it is also about adults. Do the witnesses know of examples where this has worked? It is brilliant what Foróige and Youth Work does. I have heard real examples where people have been put through the mill in relation to views they took from the Internet and were asked to explain them at times probably in a combative enough way. It meant they had to defend their position and, in some cases, it was only when that happened that they had to rethink it. Making that happen is very difficult because not everybody is going to be involved in Foróige or Youth Work. Have the witnesses seen examples where that worked? What is the best means of delivering that? Does anyone have a comment on how to hold these companies to account? There needs to be intent from Government.

Ms Róisín O'Neill:

The Deputy spoke about those large companies and the element of fear in that they bring in a lot of taxation for Ireland and a lot of employment is caught up in that. In a way, we are leaders in that sector.

I would also like us to be leaders in the sector of protection in that area.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I agree.

Ms Róisín O'Neill:

As well as having such great development, I would like there to be development in terms of protection and safety for young people online. That begins with us. Ireland is coming into a period with a lot of opportunities for leadership, so now is the time to start doing that. I am going to leave it there because I am sure other people have comments to make as well.

Mr. Oisín Ó Dubhshláine:

Tá acmhainn curtha le chéile ag NYCI dar teideal, Stop! Wait a minute: Critical social media literacy tool.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Céard é an t-ainm atá air?

Mr. Oisín Ó Dubhshláine:

Stop! Wait a minute: Critical social media literacy tool. Gabh mo leithscéal, tá mé ag labhairt i dhá theanga faoi láthair. An rud atá i gceist ná cleachtas gur féidir a chur i bhfeidhm le go mbíonn an duine ag teacht ar ais chuig na mothúcháin, is ag dul ar aghaidh leis an smaoineamh. Tuigimid anois go gcuireann an t-ábhar seo tine leis na mothúcháin agus muid ar líne. Is dea-nós é stad ar feadh soicind agus fanacht sula leanann tú ar aghaidh, ach tá sé an-deacair rud mar sin a chur i bhfeidhm. Is céad chéim atá i gceist.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Caithfimid rudaí cosúil leis sin a úsáid le go mbeidh seans ag achan duine rud mar sin a úsáid.

Mr. Franek Dobronski:

I want to shine a spotlight on an organisation that cannot be here and the work it does on providing digital literacy on this topic for young people in Ireland, namely, SpunOut, and the various services that charity offers. I highlight especially the empathy academy it has developed. This is a self-learning tool that teaches young people digital literacy skills and all the resources they need to navigate this space as a whole. I also want to highlight the incredible work it does. It has the navigator service, Text About It. The services it has all provide quintessential resources for young people who want to navigate online spaces these days. That work needs to be highlighted, especially on this committee.

Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What all the witnesses are saying is there is a pile of facilities in relation to this but it is about making sure we get them to people and whether that has to be done through school, youth work or whatever. I imagine it has to be probably through absolutely everything. We need greater action from a governmental point of view. The Data Protection Commissioner needs to take action using the Digital Services Act. The EU Commission needs to get real about it and not be in thrall to corporations as much. It also means the Government has a greater level of work to do because it is just far too dangerous a space. Again, these companies are not going to disappear. They are going to operate. We just need them to operate in a safer way. What the witnesses have all said is banning is not going to work. People will find a way around it and will also find worse ways to be online.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Go raibh maith agat, Deputy. We had SpunOut in here and its representatives talked to us about those resources, so we are definitely on the same page.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I welcome all the witnesses. I am blown away by their articulacy, their passion and the Gaeilge líofa. The future is bright. They are a credit to themselves and to all those who have supported them along the way to be the wonderful people they are today. Well done.

There has been a lot of talk about a total ban on social media. It is very hard to be young today but it is also very hard to be a parent of a young person, especially for people who grew up with nothing but the landline. It is a hard thing all around and there needs to be support for all aspects. I do not agree with a total ban because obviously there are some very good sides of social media. I will ask someone from each of the groups why they think there should not be a total ban, besides the obvious advantages. How do they think they can get involved at an official level so they will be listened to? They are living this and going through their youth at the moment. How could they get involved with forming policies, going forward?

Ms Emilia de Búrca:

Social media is such an important part of our lives nowadays. It has grown so rapidly. As the Senator said, two decades ago there was little other than maybe a telly and a landline phone but now you cannot take social media away from people. It is so much of our livelihoods. It is our school. It is our work and our passions. Most of my personal favourite things come from the Internet and from what I have found through my own searching. I love art and there is so much more there. On social media I have gone through such rabbit holes of finding different designs and different types. It is such a big thing, especially for young people. I would not be the person I am without the social media I have had access to.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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It is amazing.

Ms Emilia de Búrca:

It is so much more than, "Oh, everything is AI now". There is so much creativity and so much more to learn from others on the Internet, and to learn about ourselves and the communities we are a part of. I found out so much about the LGBTQ community through the Internet. I would not have learned that because no one taught it to me in school. I did not know how to ask my parents about it. All I had was the Internet and because of that I am so much more confident in myself as a person thanks to the access I have been given. To try to take that away now after so much has happened would not work.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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It would be detrimental.

Ms Emilia de Búrca:

It would not help. I am thinking of people who are like me when I was about ten years of age and getting my first iPad and downloading TikTok. I saw a lot of harmful stuff which I should not have and that probably impacted my life too, but I found such amazing communities, such amazing work and such amazing things I can be a part of and I can do. It makes me so happy. There are so many benefits to social media we need to highlight to ensure those are kept safe when we are putting in regulations that will benefit children in the long run.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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Well done. Thank you.

Ms Sarah Davitt:

I completely agree. When we were talking with the other youth panel members and Webwise, 80% of them were against the ban and I think 20% were for it. We understand social media disinformation and harmful content are online but banning it does not really solve any of those issues. They are systemic issues in the social media platforms. They are also societal issues and banning social media does not help or solve any of the issues that are in place. By banning it you are just obscuring opportunities to find a community. We have stuff that can help inform parents and teachers that is just not put into our education system. We are not being helped with how to use it safely and that is how a lot of these harms are being caused. We are not being taught the critical skills.

I have done digital media literacy education since first year but most of my friends in other schools have not done it. While we have the tools, what we are being taught is not the most up to date. I am thinking of the communities you can find on social media. You can find information. Through social media I found out about the Webwise panel. It gives opportunities to kids that schools cannot. Social media and just being online helps educate kids. What I have learned through social media is tremendous – through YouTube or TikTok. They can help us study. While we need to be taught how to use tools like ChatGPT and other AI safely and properly, those tools have helped me and so many of my classmates.

The main issue with social media is we are not taught how to use it. We could be taught how to use it safely from a very young age, along with the critical thinking skills, starting at primary school. I got no education on how to be safe online besides being told cyber-bullying exists and it is bad. We were taught not to use social media in primary school. Obviously, I am not encouraging young children to be on social media. I agree it is probably not the best way forward but kids are going to be online whether or not it is allowed. We need to strengthen the regulation and make social media companies accountable. It has been said so many times by all the panels but education needs to be brought forward and kids need to be kept in the discussion of how to roll it out.

If there are to be new regulations, or a ban, which most of us disagree with, young people need to be kept in the conversation. Social media has done so much good, but taking it away erases how much it has brought forward. We cannot get rid of social media. Young people are going to be online and if we bring in a ban, they are just going to get on it at 17 when they have not learned any of the skills to use it properly. We need to start from a young age because it is in our online world and it is just about whether it will be used safely or not.

Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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That is a good point. Unfortunately, I must go to the Seanad but I say "well done" to all the witnesses. They should be very proud of themselves.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank everybody for taking the time out of their busy schedules to be with us. As a youth worker, a dad and a very proud public representative, I am always privileged to be in the role but today is a particularly privileged day for me and for all of us here to have the voices of the witnesses heard. However, it should not stop at that. Quite often children and young people have an awful lot to say; it is the adults in the room who, too often, refuse to listen or do not want to hear them. I hope beyond hope that what the witnesses have to say today is heard, is seen and manifests itself in policy decisions on things that are not their issues. Online safety is not a young person's issue; it is a societal issue. The situation is ripe with hypocrisy because society has encouraged, if not directed, children and young people for the last 15 to 20 years to use online devices, social media and channels, which have had so many positives, as the witnesses have so succinctly said. We have heard some wonderful examples of how beneficial being online is for young people. We tend to lose sight of that.

My voice is not important. I will ask some questions. How would the witnesses feel if, after all of this, the State decides to implement a ban on social media for under-16s?

Mr. Shakar Ali:

If a ban was implemented, it would be catastrophic. It would be incredibly unuseful. If it had been banned when I was a child, I would have no skills to safely explore the Internet and I would come across things that are just as bad once I am old enough. Implementing a ban is not the way to go. We think filtering it is the best way to go. Twelve-year-olds should only be seeing content for 12-year-olds and 14-year-olds should only be seeing content for 14-year-olds, not anything more and not anything less. This is on the companies to make these changes.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If Róisín, Orla, Sarah and Franek will stick to a minute each, we will get the four of them in.

Ms Róisín O'Neill:

To be quite honest, even a small part of me would be relieved. I have a younger sister who is 13 and she is online far too much. Obviously, I am against this ban but we are all a little bit scared and a ban seems like the quickest way to fix that. A small part of me would be relieved that she would be protected from those harmful things we cannot control. However, we actually can control them. I would be relieved maybe at first but in the long term we would be looking at her not being able to deal with it then when she goes on at 16. Once we sit with it for a year or two, I think we will realise that it is not effective and we will actually be much worse off. In the moment, therefore, I might feel relief, but in the long term regret.

Ms Orla Hanratty:

I would be surprised if the Government brought in something like that. I may have taken this up the wrong way but from reading about the Digital Safety Act and the online safety code, I assumed the Government was not thinking about bringing in a ban for social media for under-16s. If the Government is not thinking about introducing the ban, perhaps we should be having conversations about how to keep the social media that we have access to now safe, rather than hypothesising about something the Government has no intention of doing. If a ban were brought in, on the same wavelength as Róisín, I would be relieved but suspicious. I was reading an article on the BBC about how two in five children in Australia still have access to social media. It would be interesting to see how the Government managed to work that out.

Ms Sarah Davitt:

Like the other youth representatives, I feel that if the ban came in, it would just ignore the information we have been telling the committee about. It would ignore the views of the youth. The ban is just delaying the issue until a later age. When they get on, they will not be as media literate. If we enforced a ban on social media, young people would not be rolling out education platforms on how to use it safely. They would just be receiving it at 16. If we were banning it, then in the Government's eyes there would probably be no need for the education to be brought in on how to use social media safely. It is just delaying it until an older age.

The ban ignores the issues we all face online. Misinformation, disinformation and all of that affects us all. We all saw the comments during the comments. They could all have been posted by kids but realistically they were not. If we go for banning social media, it just ignores the rest of society and the problems with social media that they face as well. The ban has not been working in Australia. When I was in Brussels, they were going through how it would work. The other panellists and I saw so many issues with how it was being brought in. If that type of ban were brought in here, I do not think it would be taken well by the public, and the youth especially. It would ignore all of the issues and would not address any of the real problems we face on social media.

Mr. Franek Dobronski:

What Deputy Farrelly said resonated with me. I agree it is a societal issue. I see it with my parents especially, who probably were not as digitally literate. I think a scrolling feature has been added on WhatsApp now and when my mom had been using it for a few minutes, I thought, "What is going on? This is not supposed to be happening". It just did not make sense in my head. It is very much a societal issue.

I echo what was said about the ban in Australia. If it was to happen in Ireland, it would just cause loopholes. Children are going to find other ways around it. Since they have already been exposed to it, they already know the sensation and the dopamine hit you get from scrolling. If anything, they are going to yearn for it more and search for it because once they have been exposed to it, there is no going back. You just want that more and it is never going to stop, or it could but it will be a persistent issue. The restriction of it in practice is going to cause people to go back to it. There is no going back. I just keep repeating myself but the point is it will not resolve the issue. There will always be ways to access it one way or another.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I will not be cheeky and try to wedge in another questions with five seconds. I thank the witnesses very much for their replies.

Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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I thank all the witnesses all for coming in. I look at social media from a different viewpoint. I am the father of four children and there is a battle in most homes, as we all know, but I look at it differently. I go back to when I was young, which was a very long time ago, and I look at what we had. It was the same kind of thing where we had headphones, music and video games. We had everything, but it was separate. Now you have everything in one. You have the power in your hand now. Power is knowledge, but how we deal with it in the long term is the thing. That is the biggest battle that is going on in houses up and down Ireland. A social media ban would not work because we are dealing with a very talented, intelligent group of people who have discovered VPNs and all that goes with that. Do the witnesses believe it is a societal thing? Do they believe that parents are not listening or are not in touch with what is going on today? Are we out of date? Do we need to change and evolve to come up to their expectations of society today?

Ms Emilia de Búrca:

I believe parents need to have that little bit of empathy with their children and the current state of our lives. As I said before, social media is a huge thing now. The Deputy pointed out that everything is on the phone. It is a torch, your homework, your music, your interests and your friends. It is all of that. Parents need to take that into account and if they do not, that is a shortcoming on their part. Change happens. It is how society works. Parents need to factor that in.

I know I am addicted to my phone, and I was talking to my dad about that.

I was trying to work out a solution where I could distance myself from it a bit. His solution was to give me some of his old CDs. I now have a pretty good collection of CDs and DVDs in my room. I find it comforting to have physical media because there is a process to it. It is not just clicking a button and music plays. You have to get the thing and put it in. There are steps to it instead of just clicking a button and it is done. It is important for parents to try to find that middle ground with their children. If they are wholeheartedly addicted to their phone, try to find something else they are interested in to get them off it.

I remember two or three years ago my whole life was on my phone. I would go home from school, scroll for hours and maybe do my homework. I would probably get into trouble the next day. Now I have found a community outside of social media through a youth club, which I found through social media. I also found that middle ground with my dad with music. Parents should encourage their children to find stuff outside of their phone and being stuck in their house. Especially after Covid, it became a big thing to be trapped in the home on your phone all the time. It is about trying to encourage more outside time and physical media to stop that dopamine hit from constant scrolling. For me, it has opened so many more doors and made my life broader, instead of being on a rectangle I keep in my pocket.

Ms Róisín O'Neill:

I empathise a bit. I will not say I get it because I do not have kids, but my mum is really stressed about my siblings' time on social media. She kind of feels like she has no help. There is a lot of talk about how parents should look after their kids and engage with them online and so on. However, a lot of the onus is being placed on young people and parents and not enough on the corporations and platforms themselves. The ban would exacerbate that a bit. It would place the onus on parents to make sure their kids are not bypassing it and place the onus on kids to make sure they are not online when they should not be. It is taking responsibility away from the platforms, which are the ones causing these issues. My mum would feel more supported if there were regulation and guidance from the Government on how to make these platforms more accountable.

Ms Aisling Maloney:

I will follow up on the point about giving more resources because we already do a great job teaching parents how to restrict how much sugar their children consume or how much TV they watch. We need to start doing the same by giving them a recommendation for how many hours per day or per week children should be engaging with technology, whether that is with their phones, TV or whatever other platforms they use. There is a generational gap. Everyone in this room who is under the age of 25 grew up with smartphones. I got my first smartphone when I was 12 when neither of my parents had one, so I was navigating that environment myself and not really knowing what dangers existed because there was not any education on it in schools at that time. Broader digital literacy education will not just help young people. It will help people of all generations because it is a societal issue and not just a youth issue. People from all generations need to know how to navigate the online space, how to be constructive and active citizens in the digital space and how to keep each other safe as well as themselves.

Mr. Oisín Ó Dubhshláine:

Mar a dúirt Aisling, is ceist don phobal atá i gceist anseo. Chomh maith leis sin, ní mór dúinn cuimhneamh más rud é go mbeidh cosc ar dhaoine atá faoi aois 16 a bheith ar na meáin shóisialta, an mbeidh cosc freisin ar thuismitheoirí, clubanna óige agus scoileanna pictiúir agus íomhánna de dhaoine óga a chur ar na meáin shóisialta? Ní féidir an saothrú sin a dhéanamh orthu agus ansin a rá leo nach bhfuil smacht ná cead acu a bheith sna spásanna sin.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Everybody is welcome. I am a youth worker as well. We do things well in Sligo with the CRIB. I always want to listen to the voice of young people. It is so important and we are delighted they are here. We often hear so much about the negatives of social media. We hear that so much. I have three teenage children so there is a battle about it in our house as well. They always throw it back to me. I think I am more addicted to my phone than they are.

We should be rethinking our use of social media as a society. As Emilia said, everything we do is online. We communicate with people. We get information and we read the newspaper. There is so much more to online use than social media. That is also a good differentiation. I often say that we play games online. We do crosswords and quizzes online. Social media is often thrown in as online use. There is so much more to online than social media.

I would not be in favour of a full ban, but I worry that big digital corporations would hate a ban. It would be their worst nightmare if there were a ban. I see where Deputy Ó Murchú is coming from. We are so indebted to social media for jobs and corporation tax. It is very hard to regulate it. There is legislation that we should be using. There are regulations that are not being implemented. The digital age of consent in Ireland is 13. How can we ensure that? How do the witnesses feel about digital ID and digital wallets? There is a bit of a question about that and gathering data. That is a question I have about people having digital wallets.

It is also about maybe delaying smartphones. I know there is an initiative in Sligo where they are trying to push smartphones out of primary schools. They want that in all schools in Sligo, not just in one area or in the town but the whole county. It is saying that we are not going to have a smartphone. How can we work around that?

I will also ask about critical thinking. It is not just about online use or social media. All of us need to start thinking critically about how the world operates. Youth spaces are an amazing place to do it, but not everyone goes to youth spaces and not everyone accesses Youth Work. Should it be through primary school or should it be a subject? Should it be part of the community services programme, CSP, or SPHE? Should it be about critical thinking skills in general and not just about online? I am just throwing that out.

Mr. Shakar Ali:

Teenagers now are a bit too far gone. Let us say you do not want to go to the CRIB, then you will not go to the CRIB maybe for the rest of your life, if the Senator gets what I mean. You will not be going there any more. We should target primary school children. When I was in primary school, they pushed out Foróige and told me all these good things about going to the youth club. I tried it and I really liked it. If we push out services like Foróige, Youth Work and so on, we can get the smartphone problem at the root. The Senator also said that online and social media are not the same thing. In my world, social media is apps like TikTok, Snapchat and WhatsApp. Online has far bigger reach like Google, Wikipedia, AI services and all of that. Social media and online are not the same thing.

Ms Sarah Davitt:

On integrating it into schools, in secondary school there should be a mandatory digital media class for all schools. I think it is an optional subject, but in my school it is mandatory. Critical skills can be taught in all aspects of schooling. They should be taught in every subject, but there should be a dedicated subject for social media and the online world in general because this is the future. Everything is digitised. Some State exams are typed and learning in general is going online.

Having a class that is dedicated for that would help. On age verification and the ID wallets, it is a lot better than a ban. Yes, there would be privacy risks, but whatever we are going to do, it is not going to be perfect. A ban is a lot worse than having age verification.

On pushing back phones until secondary school or age 13, I would completely agree. My parents were very apprehensive and scared of putting me online. I got my phone going into secondary school and I think it was the same with my siblings. On trying to get parents not to have children have phones, people have iPads, and then phones might also be needed just for safety issues, if you are going to school by yourself. Pushing it out as a nationwide approach is probably not the best idea, but having support for parents and giving them recommendations could be useful. Definitely, there should be a class that is integrated, especially in secondary schools but again in primary schools. Even when I was in primary school we were doing a lot less online. I am only in third year. A lot has changed since then. My sister is in primary school and has been having classes taught to her. She is taught basic things. I think cyberbullying is all that is taught in primary school, or that was my experience. They are not taught how to use it safely. Integrating it in all aspects of primary school is needed. Age verification is a good idea. Nothing that we roll out is going to be perfect. Again, a ban is a lot different from having age verification.

Mr. Oisín Ó Dubhshláine:

Beidh mé sciobtha. Sílim nach é cosc an rud is measa do na comhlachtaí. Sílim gurb é srianadh ar an ábhar ar fad atá ann an rud is measa a bhféadfaidís a fheiceáil. Maidir le smaointeoireacht chriticiúil, bheinn ag moladh clár ar nós Jigsaw agus na piar-oidí a bhíonn aige. Molaim go mbeadh sé mar chuid de na hábhair mar a bhíonn ach chomh maith leis sin go mbeadh sé spraíúil agus go mbeadh craic ag baint leis. Is é sin an rud a bhíonn daoine óga ag iarraidh a bheith bainteach leis.

Ms Aisling Maloney:

In an ideal world we would have this education in our formal education system but schools and teachers are already under so much stress and they might not have the capacity or the knowledge to have these classes taught. Youth work and youth organisations are already building young people with these skills and this experience. We could have a structure where we actually have the non-formal education system complementing the formal education system. We have the national curriculum for schools and education in a formal setting but maybe we should start looking at a curriculum on non-formal education to ensure we are not stressing capacity when there is no need to. Youth workers already have so much experience in this area and know how to teach young people to have these skills. We should be bringing them into the fold instead of creating two separate approaches to this.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are all very welcome. I want to give them as much time to speak as possible. I am a mum of nine-year-old twin girls so I am trying to do my best for them, and also as a legislator. If you were in my shoes, what would you like to see this committee recommend? I will start with Emilia because she spoke so passionately. She is a teenager who already has social media, but what about those who have not yet had access to it?

Ms Emilia de Búrca:

Especially for younger children who have not yet been exposed to social media or having a phone, I would say to keep it off them until they are at least in secondary school. I know a lot of people who were given phones and access to social media very young. One of my friends got a phone when they were nine years old, like the Deputy's daughters. They were so addicted. It was really hard to talk to them for a while, because all they would talk about was playing Roblox or what happened on TikTok. It does kind of feel excluding sometimes as a young person, hearing your friends talk about what happened on whatever social media platform when you do not have it. It can feel excluding but I do think sometimes it is best for the young person to stay off such a huge network. I was also given access to social media not long after my friend. One thing I would recommend instead of social media is video games. They can still be addicting but they are less harmful because you have full control over what your children are seeing and absorbing. Your brain is actually doing something instead of just mindless, numbing, constant scrolling. For young people, it is hard to keep them off social media, especially when it is such a huge thing. However, doing so might benefit them more because, especially for young people, it can be very dangerous given how impressionable you can be the younger you are.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Delay, yes. Orla, can I ask you as well what content you have seen that you would class as misinformation or disinformation, or not age-appropriate?

Ms Orla Hanratty:

Am I allowed to talk about that or is it a sensitive topic?

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Start talking and if I need to stop you, I will.

Ms Orla Hanratty:

There were modular homes that were going to be built in my town. They have been built now. This group of far-right extremists set up a Facebook group that I think now has around 48,000 followers. Our town only has a population of 17,000 or something. It is obviously gone nationwide and even out of Ireland as well.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Or bots.

Ms Orla Hanratty:

Yes, 100%. On the content I would be seeing, there are despicable AI pictures and videos. They are such realistic videos of people pretending to be immigrants, saying "Here is how I got into the country" and that kind of thing. Obviously the comments are-----

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Horrendous.

Ms Orla Hanratty:

They are unreadable.

To go back to the Deputy's first question, as legislators, I am sure the members are all aware of Coco's Law and how people can be prosecuted for online bullying. I think the same should be brought in for online hate and discriminatory speech online. When people post these things, the platforms are not taking them down. People are claiming free speech but obviously there is a difference between free speech and hate. That would be the biggest thing that I would love to see.

Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is an interesting point. I am a lawyer. One of the things people can do, if someone prints something in a newspaper that is defamatory or discriminatory, is take a civil legal case. What I have a real issue with is that online, people can set up anonymous accounts. We do not know if they are a real person and we do not have a real address. That needs to be addressed. Whether people post anonymously or not on the platform, they should have to show they are a real person with a real address, so those civil cases can actually be taken against a person who is making defamatory statements or engaging in hate speech.

Ms Orla Hanratty:

It should be a priority for the Government to bring in legislation making that a criminal or civil offence, so that people can be prosecuted. People will stop fairly quickly when they realise they can get in trouble for the things they are posting online.

Ms Aisling Maloney:

The first thing I would do as a legislator would be to recommend more investment and dedicated funding streams for youth information services, youth work and digital literacy projects. Coming from a Youth Work Ireland perspective, the biggest challenge a lot of youth work organisations face is funding. We depend a lot on the different European programmes and the EU funding streams, especially Erasmus+, under EU youth goal 4 on information and constructive dialogue. We need a lot more domestic support in terms of funding because there are just not a lot of avenues for us to do these projects. The drive is there, as is the capacity and willingness to participate in these projects. Young people are really looking for ways to strengthen their knowledge and skills in this area. There are just not a lot of opportunities out there, or, if there are opportunities, they are quite competitive because there is so much interest in them.

The other recommendation I would make is just to have that piece on meaningful youth participation in all stages. If these policies are going to come into place, young people need to be part of those conversations from the initial design and planning stages up until they are signed into legislation.

Ms Sarah Davitt:

I would recommend strengthening tools and legislation we already have. The Digital Services Act is amazing legislation but it sets out guidelines and that is the real issue. Having guidelines is all well and good, and a lot of positives have resulted from the Digital Services Act, but obliging social media companies to follow them would increase the Act's productiveness.

The online safety code is different. Making it so that the social media companies have to follow it and making those companies accountable will improve things for our youth and for our country overall.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There are still a couple of members who want to come in. We will give each of them seven minutes and we will then have time for a second round.

Before I start asking questions, I will say that I am in favour of safety by design and age verification, linking back to the way films are classified by age, for example, 13, 16 or 18. However, I want to play devil's advocate for a minute. At the beginning, everyone was clear about not being in support of a ban in any way, shape or form. Then, when we talked about bringing in a ban there was going to be some relief. Then there was a conversation about the whole world being online but if people could go back, they would delay it a bit further. For the witnesses' age group and the age group that currently has social media and had it from a young age, now the thought of a ban is the worst thing in the world because a lot of their world is online. They have learned how to communicate, build a network and get information. However, if they did not have it, at what age would they have liked to have got it?

Say Róisín has a sister, if everyone can imagine having a younger sister, at what age should they get social media? Everyone's hand has gone up - I love that. We look at Australia and say the ban did not work because two young people in five are still accessing social media. However, three in five are not. I am not comparing vapes or alcohol because there are no positives in the case of vapes or alcohol, but there are positives to driving a car and we apply age limits to driving a car because we wait until people have impulse control to manage that. We can give teenagers digital literacy when they are in school and all the way up and when they are 16 they have that impulse control. I am not saying I want a ban. I am just playing devil's advocate. We will go with Oisín, Franek, Sarah and Emilia, and then see if there is time for others.

Mr. Oisín Ó Dubhshláine:

Phléamar cén saghas cruth a bheadh ag cosc ar rud éigin mar seo. Ní bhainim mórán úsáid as na meáin shóisialta. Fiú agus mé ag fás aníos, níor lean mé treochtaí agus rudaí mar sin. Ní bhfuair mé TikTok go dtí go raibh mé i mbliain a sé agus 17 bliain d’aois. Tá an fhadhb leis an gcosc ná rá le daoine óga nach bhfuil cead acu é seo a dhéanamh in áit iad a mholadh chuig rudaí dearfacha. Luaigh an Teachta carranna mar chomparáid. Más rud é go mbreathnaímid air ar nós siopa, is féidir le daoine óga dul go dtí siopa ach ní féidir leo alcól a cheannach ann. Tá rudaí ar leith nach féidir leo a dhéanamh, mar a bhí an Teachta á rá, ag aois a 12, a 16 nó a 18, srl. Má bhreathnaímid air mar sin, beidh srian ar an ábhar in áit ar na daoine iad féin.

Mr. Franek Dobronski:

I acknowledge that our generation, the generation that is growing up with social media right now, is a bit different. We were the first generation to be introduced to social media at the start of it. What it has now become is completely different from what we started to experience, especially back in 2021 or 2022 when we properly got into it. That needs to be acknowledged because my younger brother is 13 and I do not want to say he is chronically online but he is. His generation is tied to being on the computer, playing games online and being on social media. He has Instagram and he is 13. I do not know if that is legal. I did not have my first contact with traditional social media, such as Instagram and Facebook, until I was 16. I am going to be biased when I say there should be stages to when a young person can access certain parts of social media or digital areas of it. I got my first electronic device when I was 12, for my communion. I played normal games, watched YouTube videos, basic stuff. When I was older I got Instagram when I was 16 and then I progressed from there. Now I am an addict like everyone. It should happen in stages. People should be introduced to media electronics for a certain age. Maybe when they hit 16 you can introduce the social media. That is what we are talking about right now. From there, through the curriculum or, as Aisling said, informal spaces can adjust into educating young people on how to navigate these spaces from there onwards. There should not be an outright ban. It should be introduced in stages in line with the capacity of the young person to home in on the information. That is my take on it.

Ms Sarah Davitt:

Looking at what Australia has done, the outright ban, especially at 16, has not solved any of the issues and there are still people on social media. As for some of the safety by design aspects for instance, I have an Instagram account and when creating the account I put in that I was under 16 because my parents were watching me. I put it in and now, at night-time, I do not get notifications from social media and I do not get notifications from Instagram after 7 p.m. There are screen limits of an hour and the only way I can change that is if I put a parent on the app. I am online but I am doing it safely. It is the safety by design approach.

The problem is a ban would be more supported or more realistic, not that I would support it, at 13 because the development stages between 13 and 16 are a massive jump. If we ban social media, none of the education would be brought forward. You can bring education forward on how to use it safely. There are so many ways to get around a ban, such as a VPN which is really easy to use. It does not help parents either because, like everyone else around, the children are going to have social media. I am not 16 yet. People are going to get around it. The ban does not address any of the issues of how to use it properly when they are 16. It just places more pressure on parents and it will put a lot more pressure on the education system. Instead it should be rolled out slowly from primary school to when the students are older in secondary school.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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To share the time I will go to Róisín and then quickly to Orla.

Ms Róisín O'Neill:

I agree with what the others have said. I do not have much to add. I would point out that there is not a whole pile of research done on this. Personally, I would like there to be numbers and to have scientific data to back up the idea that a ban is the best way to protect young people or at what age that should be done. Maybe we could look into funding that kind of research. Then we would have a better idea, a roadmap I suppose.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is hard to do that research when Australia is the first place to do it. It is evolving so fast.

Ms Orla Hanratty:

I can understand why everyone has conflicting views on banning social media. The idea that we would then play outside all the time is great but when it comes to the reality, nobody wants to give up their phone. On rolling this out slowly, if I am to play devil's advocate, I personally find it hard to imagine doing it in the way that movies are rated. I find it hard to see how it would be done practically that, at age 13, people could have this and, at age 15, they could have something else. Irish people, or maybe everyone, are protective about their rights. It would probably get to a point where people would ask why the Government is telling them that they can only have a public account. It gets to a point where it is just not feasible in reality.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes. As someone who posted online about the digital wallet that is only being trialled and consulted on at the moment, there was a lot of negativity and pushback. I am sure if we go for full age verification and identity verification, there will be pushback. We will move back to Senator Cosgrove. I am conscious that more members might come back in.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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We are here to listen as well.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am going to have a second round. I want to give everybody time for some closing thoughts as well. If another member comes into the meeting, we will have some further questions. We usually go organisation by organisation but everyone is very engaged today so we might have one minute per person for closing remarks and members will have three minutes each now.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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Going back to what Orla said about the comments online and the example she gave, so much of that happens. So much hate is being spread. Even on Facebook, you used to be able to turn off the comments.

You should be able to turn off the comments. Some Facebook media accounts leave the comments on. They should turn them off. There should be that option.

From my experience with my own children, when they got phones first - mine were 11 and 12 - they were just mad for them at the start and then it kind of aged out a bit. In first year and second year they could not get enough of their phones. My daughter is 17 and she and her friends go out they have phone piles. They are way better than I am. They slag me off all the time about it and say I cannot tell them to get off their phone when I am always on my phone myself. I can see the importance of phones for the 13-year olds and 14-year olds for making friends and connecting. It is difficult to be part of those groups if you do not have a phone. Could young people from an older age group encourage younger people to have a digital detox? Would they do that? When we try to do that in our house it does not go down well, but we all feel better when we do. We play games and we talk to each other more. Do the witnesses do that? Do any of them want to come in on that? Do they see a role for themselves to talk to younger people about things like that - that it is good for you to get off your phone?

Mr. Oisín Ó Dubhshláine:

Molaimid rudaí mar sin. Bím ag obair le daoine óga agus cuireann siad ionadh orm go minic le rudaí mar seo. Tá gach duine ag iarraidh réiteach a oibreoidh uair amháin agus ansin beidh muid críochnaithe agus in ann bogadh ar aghaidh chuig an gcéad fhadhb eile. Caithfimid iarracht a dhéanamh arís agus arís eile. Is féidir cluichí boird a dhéanamh agus, an tseachtain dár gcionn, folláine, aclaíocht nó pé rud a dhéanamh. Is gá go mbeadh gach duine solúbtha faoin réiteach atá uathu.

Ms Róisín O'Neill:

From personal experience, me and my friends rarely use our phones when we are talking to each other. I wonder if there is a case to be made that because we grew up with these kinds of technologies, we know how to regulate them. Not everybody does. The way the apps are designed certainly does not help but growing up with them certainly gave us a little bit more expertise on when we need to put the phone down and when we want to talk to each other. My younger brothers play poker. I am not sure if I am supposed to promote that, but when they play they have a strict rule that their phones go in the corner. Young people are able to regulate phone use but we would like help from the Government and the corporations.

Nessa Cosgrove (Labour)
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I think so. Young people have a big role in educating younger people about that.

Ms Orla Hanratty:

When it comes to older young people influencing younger young people, it all circles back to having places to do these things. Senator Cosgrove mentioned the youth centres in Sligo and nationalising that kind of idea.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I know I told the witnesses they are protected against defamation in what they said but they should be careful about getting their siblings in trouble. This is all recorded.

Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for bearing with us. I am sorry that I had to step out into the Committee of Public Accounts. It is a really open-ended question. I want to reflect on how positive and important this morning has been. I will remember it for the duration of my time in Leinster House. If there was one message they would like to be remembered as part of their contribution today, what would it be for policymakers, the State and the people who have the ultimate final say in policy?

Mr. Franek Dobronski:

This has been echoed already throughout the room: we want to know that what has been said here today is actually going to be taken seriously, and will be taken into discussions in the Dáil or wherever else. That is my only ask. I do not want to speak for everyone but it is important that what we say here today is heard, that people are held accountable and that we are at least informed and know that what was said here today is being taken seriously and is being taken forward. That is my only ask - that we did not go for nothing.

Ms Aisling Maloney:

I will keep my message short and sweet. The message I want everybody in this room to remember is that you cannot build an online world that is safe for young people without building it with them.

Mr. Shakar Ali:

I want to reinforce the fact that children should be a part of this conversation because this conversation affects us a lot.

Ms Sarah Davitt:

The online world is the future. It is just whether the Government is going to make the regulations or there will be hypothetical bans with young people in mind. When we think about the generation that is growing up: we are the future and we are going to be online. It is just whether it is regulated and enforced with the young people in mind and thinking about how it will affect our future.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am going to talk about something that is probably a bit uncomfortable - chat companions. It is coming down the line. This is live and in public, but we are going to the coffee dock and we can have conversations in private. Last week we saw in America that a man divorced his wife and his chatbot encouraged him to enter the robot world and he eventually took his own life. A couple of days ago somebody had a chat with an AI companion and ended up engaging in gun violence. Twenty years ago we did not have the online world like the witnesses have. We did not have Tinder, Bumble or any of those things. I do not know how the current generation is starting to meet people and enter into romantic relationships. I will not embarrass them because I know this is online and their friends are probably watching. I am concerned that in two, three or five years' time people's first romantic and intimate relationships, or even close friendships for those who do not want to talk about romance, will be with AI companions. That has not even entered the discussion here today. We have one minute left. We know we can talk in the coffee dock later. I do not want to embarrass anyone. There are still loads of hands up. We will start with Róisín. I think she was the first with her hand up.

Ms Róisín O'Neill:

I do not want to harp on but it comes back to regulation. Those kinds of comments should not be made by chatbots in the first place.

It is about encouraging communities. People are turning to these kinds of chatbots first of all because they are so easy and, second, because maybe they lack community. Especially in America, community is really hard. We are a little bit better off in Ireland but not perfect. It is about encouraging community and helping people to foster real connections. That comes from youth work, sports and investment into communities. Those are my two points. It comes back to regulation and fostering community.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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One in ten Irish adults had a relationship with a chatbot last year, so it is not just America. I will get a quick contribution from Aisling.

Ms Aisling Maloney:

Following on from that point, it is about addressing the root causes of why people are turning towards these platforms - it is because they lack a kind of community in their day-to-day lives. That is especially important for young people. If young people do not have a third space - if they are going from home to school and back in the afternoon and they are not going to sports clubs, youth clubs or community groups and getting involved in the volunteering side and meeting with young people in their area, they miss out on a huge aspect of their social development and that is why they turn to these online spaces. It is because they are not fulfilling that need in their day-to-day lives. That is especially the case if young people do not get on well in school, if they are experiencing bullying or they live in a rural area and there are not a lot of facilities for them to go to. That is why investment in youth work and youthwork space is so important - it is because it provides a third space for young people to grow into themselves and become more confident in building social relationships.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I know there are still loads of people who want to come in. We will go to Deputy Dempsey. Everyone will get a chance to have a final say.

Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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If it is okay, I will let the discussion continue. It would be a good use of the time.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is fantastic.

Ms Orla Hanratty:

Regarding AI chatbots and how dangerous they are, the root cause of the people being lonely has been mentioned and described so well by the girls. AI is quite unregulated. I know the EU AI Act has been brought in but these things are still going on. It is not just in America; these things are happening all over, so the legislation has not worked that well.

AI is putting such bad things into people's minds and fostering dangerous conversations. AI large language models are trained from gigantic datasets taken from Reddit, Twitter, Quora and these kinds of places. The data is fed uncurated into the large language model. A lot of the conversations that are going on are hateful, discriminatory, racist and misogynist. The list goes on.

All that information is already there. The large language model is taking it in, embedding it, amplifying it and giving it back to people. It is not just romantic relationships. People are having friendships and conversations with these chatbots, and they are amplifying these ideas.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is a very good point.

Mr. Shakar Ali:

AI should be filtered, just like YouTube and YouTube Kids. That is an example I like to use. There should be an AI bot intended for young people. I am not talking about children aged 12 and under but about my age group. I do not want to be talking to a chatbot that can be my therapist, partner and other things. I want to talk to a chatbot that can help me with school and that I can use as a tool, not as another person because, let us be honest, ones and zeros will never be a person and an AI bot cannot be a therapist. Something like "AI Kids" should be set up.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is a business there for somebody.

Ms Sarah Davitt:

With all that has been said about AI, people are taking what AI says at face value. A lot of young people or even adults do not realise that the information taken from the likes of Reddit and Wikipedia might not always be factual. In general, regarding romantic relationships and other stuff like that, young people in Dublin do not have a place to go. There is sport, but what if you are not a sporty person? It is the same with a lot of other things. There are school activities, but what if you are not having a good time? There needs to be a place where kids can go to communicate because they are not receiving it from the outside world, so they are turning to the online world. We have to teach people that the chatbots might not be right or what they are saying might not be true. We should show them how to detect if a chatbot is spewing out false information. This goes back to the point about AI needing to be integrated into school programmes because kids are going to use it online regardless. The idea of rolling out an AI platform dedicated to kids or even education could be such a great tool. AI is becoming so common and popular that it will probably continue to be used. People need to understand how it works, where they are getting their information and that they should not share everything with the chatbot because it will be kept.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I, for one, am looking forward to the robots that will be in our houses and will bring us coffee, walk the dog and put on the wash. If they give me daily affirmations as well, that will be great. There is one more member who wants to ask questions but I want to make sure that the witnesses have time to wrap up. We will give them one minute each to wrap up and if that member comes in, we will allow her to ask a couple of questions.

Mr. Shakar Ali:

I thank the Cathaoirleach. To echo what everyone has been saying all day, there should be no ban but there should be stages to social media. I want to reinforce the point that online and social media are not the same thing. I am not asking for no filters on online use, to an extent, because there are some things that need to be filtered out of a young person's feed. Chatbots should be safer for children. Parents should manage children's phone use. They should not let their children download dangerous apps like Grok.

Ms Emilia de Búrca:

I was a wee bit of a hypocrite earlier when I said that it is a great thing that young people are able to access the Internet to find their own communities but that it should also be restricted for younger age groups. I wholeheartedly agree with the idea that social media should be accessible in stages. It is so important for young teenagers, in particular, to try to find themselves and their community, especially if they are not a sporty or social person. Social media can be a great way to find that. If social media were accessible to young people in stages, it could help them avoid falling into that dangerous category who find harmful content while also being able to find themselves and communities they are interested in. One thing that may help this is pushing stuff like youth clubs and activities that are not just sports out to younger people. That would help get young people off social media, develop better social skills and be happier as a generation.

Ms Róisín O'Neill:

I am going to reiterate the importance of engagement. We want the committee to keep talking to young people and inviting us to these kinds of things. We also want it to take into account what we say when we are here because we not just here for a day out.

There needs to be stricter regulation. The tools that we already have also need to be implemented strictly and the Government should not be afraid of these companies and should hold them to account for our sake.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Go raibh maith agat. The witnesses' submissions will be treated the same way as those of any other witnesses. We cannot give them extra treatment, but they will be given the same treatment. Their submissions will be put into our report in the same way as those of other witnesses. One way they will get extra treatment is that they will have the chance to informally chat to members in the coffee dock after the meeting. That is just out of respect to their ages, because there may be some things they do not want to put on the record. However, their testimonies today are very much going to be part of the conversation.

Mr. Oisín Ó Dubhshláine:

Táim thar a bheith buíoch as an deis inniu. Díreoidh mé arís ar an achoimre scríofa a chuireamar le chéile faoi phíosa brú. Iarraim ar na baill uilig an achoimre sin a roinnt lena gcomhghleacaithe agus an comhrá sin a bheith acu leo. Chomh maith leis sin, ba mhaith liom go ndíreofar ar chur chuige iomlánaíoch. Is ceist don phobal í seo seachas ceist do dhaoine óga amháin. Tá baol ann do chuile dhuine a bhíonn ar na meáin shóisialta. Mar sin, cén fáth nach féidir réiteach a bheith againn a choimeádann gach duine slán agus sábháilte?

Ms Aisling Maloney:

As a young person coming from a rural and disadvantaged area who was never really guaranteed opportunities like higher education, social media gave me access to youth information services online that helped me to navigate secondary school and university. Seeing the impact that those youth information services can have is what made me take my first steps into youth advocacy and get involved in different youth organisations in Ireland. Those different opportunities have led me to now being one of Ireland's UN youth delegates and getting to have conversations like this with really important decision-makers at EU and UN level. In those conversations, we call for the same things the whole time. However, this room today is where we can really have an impact, considering it is in an Irish context. I reiterate our calls, therefore, for strengthening regulation, having meaningful participation in these processes and investing in youth work and youth organisations.

Mr. Franek Dobronski:

I want to build on what everyone has said and to echo what Aisling said. As I said earlier, what we really want is to be taken seriously, with the committee making sure that everything we say is taken into account. We also want to have meaningful dialogue between politicians and young people. Like Aisling, social media has really helped me to develop my literacy, understanding and involvement in youth work and these spaces. If it were not for social media, I would not necessarily even be in this room. I may not have seen the opportunities and programmes I have wanted to apply for to develop certain skills or interests I have. I have also learned more about some things in the same way.

I was recently lucky enough to be elected as a congress youth delegate to the Council of Europe and I saw the opportunity to apply for that programme on social media. I am able to avail of these opportunities, learn these skills and develop my interests in these areas because of social media and because these opportunities are out there and publicly available for young people. I want to echo that this is very important.

Ms Sarah Davitt:

As everyone has said, it is important that kids are kept in the conversation. We appreciate it so much when we are heard. Young people's views need to be listened to. We are the ones online. Everyone or most of us in this room will have a social media account or have been online before. Banning social media is not the way forward. A safety-by-design approach will help our whole community. We are all online. We all use social media and are affected by these issues. Children are more susceptible to a lot of them, but a safety-by-design approach will help all of our community.

Again, AI needs to be integrated into the education system.

Social media has given me so much. I got onto Webwise because I saw it on Instagram. It helps kids and it is important to remember the positives of social media. It is such a great tool. If we utilise it to stay safer, it will help our youth and our whole country overall.

Ms Orla Hanratty:

I suppose I am preaching to the choir because everyone is here and listening to us. The committee members have been so receptive all day and I really appreciate that. To be blunt, it says a lot that it has come to this. As Deputy Aidan Farrelly said earlier, online safety should not be our problem. I am and a few other people here are not even old enough to vote for our Government so we have to rely on these people we have not elected to do right by us. If we are here with so many suggestions and so many things we have problems with, maybe enough is not being done. I appreciate how quickly everything moves but this is our Government. I really appreciate that the committee listened to all of us today and I hope this is a productive call to action.

Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Our other Deputy got stuck asking another question in the Chamber so that rounds us up and the witnesses finished the day off really well. I thank them all so much for coming and for being so prepared. I know it might have been very difficult for some of them to leave their studies and come here today but this is equally as important as a day in school or other courses. I know the witnesses are spokespeople for their groups and organisations. I know a lot of planning went in to getting those submissions ready. They have definitely done themselves and their communities proud.

We are listening. We hear the calls loud and clear to talk with our colleagues. My colleagues are sick of me talking about online safety but this gives me another excuse to bring it up today. We will take a photograph after this and continue our conversation informally. Next week, there will be another three groups coming in on this topic. On every topic we do, we will engage with youth groups. I think it is part of nearly all of the committees' work programmes, so this will be ongoing.