Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I draw attention to the fact that witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity.

Witnesses who are giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as those giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on this matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by witnesses outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.

The committee will now hear from the Dogs Trust. Cuirim fáilte roimh Ms Sarah Lynch, the trust's policy, compliance and research manager, and Ms Niamh Curran-Kelly, its veterinary and welfare manager. Their opening statement has been circulated and members will have had an opportunity to review it. I will allow five minutes in which to read the statement, after which we will move on to a questions and answers session.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to appear before them today. I am the policy manager with Dogs Trust Ireland and I am joined by my colleague Niamh Curran-Kelly, veterinary and welfare manager. We welcome the opportunity to contribute to the committee's important work on dog welfare and control.

Dogs Trust Ireland is the country's largest dog welfare charity. Since 2005, we have been working towards a better future for dogs and the people who love them. Each year, we care for over 1,200 dogs through our rehoming centre and regional hubs, and to date we have rescued and rehomed more than 24,000 dogs. Alongside this front-line work, we contribute to policy development by providing expert advice on areas such as microchipping, breeding and education. Our ambition is to make Ireland the best country in the world for dogs and the people who love them.

In recent years, we have seen a significant rise in dog ownership across Ireland, alongside growing issues such as irresponsible breeding and exploitation for financial gain. This is having a direct impact on our work. We are seeing more dogs coming into our care, often in difficult circumstances, including people forced to surrender much-loved pets due to a lack of dog-friendly rental accommodation, the cost of living and dogs presenting with behavioural and health issues linked to poor breeding. Looking ahead, dog ownership in Ireland is likely to remain high, but its sustainability will depend on how well policy, infrastructure and societal norms respond to these challenges. Key to this will be a more holistic approach, one that recognises dog ownership as a public policy issue with implications for housing, transport, health and community life. It will require co-ordinated action across Departments, investment in services and education and a continued focus on responsible dog ownership.

With this in mind, I will focus on three areas today. These are the key policy measures we believe would deliver a step change in dog welfare and control in Ireland; the need to professionalise the dog care sector; and thoughts on the infrastructure and education needed to help Ireland on its journey to become more dog friendly. The four key policy measures we believe would significantly improve dog welfare and control in Ireland are ending cruel breeding practices, enabling full traceability of dogs, improved dog control and public safety, and enabling more dogs to remain with their family in rented homes.

First, we must end cruel breeding practices. Both illegal and poorly regulated dog breeding is leading to mothers arriving to us absolutely terrified, completely withdrawing from human touch, and to their puppies being born with birth defects and lifelong behaviour issues due to stress in utero. This in turn leads to a vicious cycle, with dogs being surrendered to local authorities with behaviour issues, potentially leading to dogs being destroyed and ultimately the taxpayer footing the bill. Dog control statistics from 2024 revealed that the number of dogs being put to sleep grew by 10% from 2023 to 2024. More alarmingly, this figure was up 93% compared with that of 2022.

Solving this requires a strengthened and fully enforced regulatory framework, including a review of the Dog Breeding Establishments Act and its associated guidelines. We need better oversight and improved standards, and meaningful enforcement is essential to ensure dogs are bred in humane conditions and that irresponsible breeders are held to account. This would involve stricter standards, such as sufficient staff-to-dog ratios, and requiring all breeders to be on a central database, making it easier to monitor and regulate the industry.

Our second policy recommendation builds on this. Traceability is the foundation of effective enforcement. We are calling for a centralised, Government-held database that connects all existing systems and tracks a dog throughout its life.

Third, we must improve dog control and public safety. This means properly resourcing and enforcing existing legislation, addressing irresponsible breeding and ownership, and investing in education. Dog control is not about breed; it is about behaviour, responsibility and prevention. A system that tackles root causes will be far more effective in keeping communities safe.

Finally, we have to bring about a situation where more dogs can remain with their families in rented homes. Housing is one of the leading reasons dogs are surrendered to Dogs Trust Ireland. Reforming rental legislation to prevent blanket bans on pets would reduce unnecessary relinquishment.

Alongside these policy measures, we believe there is a clear need for investment in training, accreditation and education pathways to build a skilled workforce of dog care professionals. Strengthening this sector will support responsible ownership and improve outcomes for dogs across the country. The increased demand for access to professional dog services is reflective of how a dog's place within Irish society is rapidly evolving.

Dogs have become more integrated into daily life. A key example is the National Transport Authority's recent consultation on allowing dogs on public transport. We strongly support this direction. However, as our submission to the consultation outlines, these changes must be underpinned by the right infrastructure, clear rules and public education to ensure they work for everyone – passengers, operators, and animals alike. If implemented correctly, these changes can make Ireland a more inclusive and accessible place, while supporting responsible dog ownership and keeping dogs with their families.

Ireland is at a pivotal moment in how it supports dogs, the people who love them and society as a whole. The measures I have outlined are practical, achievable steps that would deliver meaningful change. There is nothing stopping Ireland from setting the standard for dog welfare in Europe.

Dogs Trust Ireland is a member of, and a subgroup chair in, the dog control stakeholder group, whose report is due to be published shortly. This report will set out a series of recommendations aimed at strengthening dog control and welfare in Ireland. We would very much welcome the opportunity to return to this committee, alongside the other subgroup chairs, to discuss the recommendations in detail when the report is published. We would also like to extend an open invitation to members of the committee to visit the Dogs Trust Ireland rehoming centre to see first-hand the work we do and the impact of these issues on dogs and their owners.

I again thank the committee again for inviting us to appear before it. We are happy to answer any questions members may have.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Lynch. She raised a wide range of issues. The committee has been discussing a broad range of issues, from microchipping and worrying sheep to dog control in general. Ms Lynch raised a number of other issues as well, such as housing and the surrender of dogs, for example. I have the rota from earlier. Senator Andrews is substituting for Senator Collins. I propose to go through the same rota we had from the earlier meeting, with approximately six minutes per member. There may be an opportunity to come back in again afterwards.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in and for the opening statement. Since 2005, Dogs Trust Ireland has gone through some 24,000 dogs. Is that correct? Were a lot of them rehomed or what is the story with those 24,000 dogs?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

With the 24,000 dogs we dealt with, rehoming and rehabilitation were our main focus. Those dogs mainly came through the local authority pound. We worked with the local authority pounds – we still do – to identify the dogs most at risk of destruction. As the Deputy may know, dogs who arrive into the pound as strays have five days to be reclaimed. If they are not reclaimed within five days, they are eligible to be rehomed by the pound, transferred out to welfare organisations or destroyed. We work with the pounds to identify those dogs most at risk and we take them in. If needed, we rehabilitate them with our trained behaviourists. We then find the most suitable home for them.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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That is some number of dogs, unfortunately. They are all either stray dogs or dogs dropped into Dog Trust Ireland premises.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

It is a mixture. We can have strays, particularly with the pounds. When we work with the local authority pounds, we identify those most at risk. Those dogs can be strays. In some cases, we accept surrenders. We have specific criteria in that regard. Again, we look at the dogs most at risk of destruction across the country or those that are the hardest to rehome. They may have behaviour issues, for example. A lot of dogs that have come from bad breeding situations will present with bad behaviour issues. People might not be able to deal with that behaviour. They might not have the funds to cope or train them. We will work with those dogs in order that they can be rehomed.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Dogs Trust Ireland cares for roughly 1,200 dogs per year. Ms Lynch mentioned regional hubs in her opening statement. Does Dogs Trust Ireland have many such hubs throughout the country?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

Ms Curran-Kelly can cover the area of the hubs.

Ms Niamh Curran-Kelly:

We have one rehoming centre in Finglas, Dublin. We then have three regional hubs. They are private boarding kennels that we lease and from which we rehome in the community. Those regional hubs are located in Kildare, Limerick and Galway. The hope is to continue that in order to continue rehoming throughout the country and catch as many people as we can.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

The good thing about having regional hubs is that leaving a home and going into kennels can be stressful for dogs. It is not good for them. It can affect their behaviour, making rehoming more of a challenge. The more it happens, it becomes more and more difficult. If we can keep a dog in their home with their owner until a more suitable home is found, we can then move them from home to home, which is a much smoother process for the dog.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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There has been a major rise in dog ownership across Ireland in recent years. Why is that? What is bringing about this major ownership of dogs?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

Covid was significant. While we do not have statistics, we all know dog ownership soared through the roof during Covid, whether for companionship, mental health or exercise. There were many different reasons. We saw it rise so much that it became hard to get a dog. Prices increased significantly and people exploited breeding and dogs for financial gain throughout that time. There was a significant rise but, unfortunately, in the following years, we saw a significant rise in surrenders. Maybe some people did not look into how to get a dog. They were an impulse purchase. They did not think about the responsibility and training needed. When some people returned to the office, dogs were left at home, stressed and not trained properly.

We are now seeing a rise in local authority dog control statistics. The number of dogs being destroyed was low, but we are now seeing it rise again. So many people were surrendering dogs that a lot of local authority dog pounds can no longer accept surrenders. They have to keep space for strays.

Joe Cooney (Clare, Fine Gael)
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Dogs Trust Ireland believes key policy measures would deliver a step change in dog welfare and control in Ireland. What way could that be achieved?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

It requires a collaborative approach involving the Department. We have seen a great move towards co-ordinating the responsibility for dog ownership, control and breeding by moving a lot of it to the Department of agriculture. That has been a positive move because it caused confusion when it was between two Departments. There is still a lot more that could be done, however. There is still quite a gap in communication and how this operates. Implementation still has to go through the local authorities. There is a bit of a gap in this regard that could be joined up.

A junior Minister would be a great way of bringing everything together. If we break down where dogs sit in this country and the number of areas they touch, a Minister of State could oversee those. There are doggy daycares, dog walkers and dog groomers. There are pets and working dogs. There are many different areas, including the breeding, selling, supplying and microchipping of dogs, as well as veterinary care and cost of same. There are a vast number of issues when it comes to dogs. If there were a junior Minister, he or she could oversee dog control, implementation and so forth, as well as look at breeding and implement effective measures for traceability. Issues around housing and the fact people cannot rent any accommodation with their dog could also be examined. We could look at ways to create a more accessible and inclusive place for dogs, their owners and society as a whole. We could look at dog control, what it looks like and what is needed in that regard. All those issues together highlight the need for a junior Minister or someone over it with sole responsibility to bring all these areas under the one remit.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for the opening statement. One of the things that always strikes me around this issue is that people talk about dog ownership and the difficulties in that regard, but the difficulties are mainly with the owners rather than the dogs. How dogs are cared for and how regulations are applied are other issues. There have been improvements and local authorities have made a lot of strides forward in the right direction in the past number of years. That is acknowledged by everyone. My local county veterinarian, James Madden, who is prominent in this whole area in County Leitrim, tells me that huge advances have been made and things have improved greatly. Of course, there are still difficulties.

Ms Lynch mentioned the traceability issue and microchipping. That is a big issue that needs to be taken under the one umbrella to ensure it is sorted out once and for all. It is clear that it can be done properly.

The issue on which I seek further clarity relates to the number of dogs that come to Dogs Trust Ireland that are considered problem dogs, vicious dogs or dogs that people fear. Are there many in that category or is that a small enough set of dogs?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

We get a whole range of dogs. People come to us with a vast array of issues and problems with their dogs. To be honest, there are sometimes dogs out there with behaviour issues. We are lucky as a rescue charity that we have trained behaviourists who work with dogs. It comes back to bad breeding. Every dog who is bred in an irresponsible way can have bad breeding. As I alluded to in my opening statement, puppies in utero experience the stress their mother is going through.

We have seen puppies come in whose mothers have been pregnant with them in really bad situations. The mother is going through stress. She may have had litter after litter. She could be forcibly impregnated again. She is having a really stressful time. That puppy is born fighting for its life from the get-go. It is born fighting the stress. They are stressed and that can carry through their life and that is where the bad behaviour can come from.

It is also about where they are born. Sometimes they might come to us to be born. Dogs Trust has the first and only "mutternity” unit. Sometimes those lucky enough can be born in the centre. The mother gets a calm environment to deliver her babies, but sometimes they do not. Sometimes they are born in poorly regulated and illegal establishments, or poorly regulated establishments. Those dogs can be born onto cement with a bit of hay on the floor. They might never see daylight. This is where breeding and how babies - puppies rather - are brought into the world is so important. When I say babies I always tell people that it is like the first year. We recognise that the first year for babies is so important in human development. We acknowledge that now and we have seen the science. The science is there for dogs, but it is there for the first 12 weeks. If dogs are not born in a suitable environment in proper, safe, clean surroundings and are not held by humans, do not see daylight, are not given food by a human being and just given automatic feeders, then they are terrified of humans. If they are brought into a quiet space and are then expected to go to a city centre or estate with children running around, lights, traffic lights and cars it is all terrifying. Habituation and socialisation is so important in a puppy's life because it gets them used to that. Unexpected noises lead to terror and bad behaviour. It is a big process and that can all lead on if they are not held properly, they are held badly, they are treated badly or if they are bred or trained to be a certain way. They can also be bred as a specific breed to be a certain way. That is why choosing the breed is so important for owners. They need to be aware of the characteristics of each breed and if the breed they are choosing is suitable to their lifestyle. That is why the breeding conditions are so important, not just for the dog and the future owner but also for society as whole.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Are there issues with dogs being bred and cross-bred to look pretty and to be a certain way? That is a difficult area because sometimes they can have traits that are not natural and can cause them difficulties as they go through life. That is an area where we need to have greater restrictions. To be a registered dog breeder I think you have to have more than six bitches.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

Yes.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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That means there are a lot of people out there who do not have that, or illegal ones with more than that. In general, I imagine a lot of people would be small time and could be using practices that are not good. How prevalent is that type of activity?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

It is very prevalent. You will see that a lot.

Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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Those are designer dogs.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

Exactly. You can think back to different trends with famous people and so forth. We see rising trends and certain ones come in. Different brachycephalic dogs like pugs and French bulldogs were popular for a while. That led to increased breeding for those breeds. Ms Curran-Kelly can speak to this as veterinary manager. There are severe brachycephalic issues where they cannot breed. They are bred so badly that they have to be destroyed, so we are literally breeding dogs just to kill them. Ms Curran-Kelly has probably seen a good few cases in our centre like that.

Ms Niamh Curran-Kelly:

We focus on brachycephalic dogs because we see French bulldogs and pugs, etc., everywhere. We are trying to go to physiological health. We see it now with dachshunds that are being bred with longer backs, so they are prone to issues with their backs. What we are striving for is innate health. Similarly, the way that brachycephalic dogs are bred means that their noses are shortened and shortened, and their heads are bigger. Mothers will even struggle to whelp those puppies, and they will most likely need c-sections. There is so much contending in it.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

We have to remember that people are being allowed to make a fortune off this bad behaviour and animal cruelty. They are charging thousands of euro for a dog that probably has to be destroyed after being born in pain, struggling to breathe and struggling to walk. There can be bad behaviour among such dogs because if someone touches them and they are in agony, they try to communicate that they are sore, and people do not understand dog language. It is a vicious cycle. If they are not bred well, there are so many issues. They go through pain. We can think of how we would feel if we were in agony with a sore tooth and someone were to touch us. People are trying to make them rarer and rarer and even down to a certain colour so they can charge an extortionate amount.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I have a few questions that need straightforward answers. The witnesses call for a centralised Government-held dog traceability database. What would the estimated cost be and how do they propose it would be funded and enforced?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

I could not comment on the cost. I would have to leave that to the experts. It is definitely worth scoping out, but I think there would be long-term benefits if we look at it.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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My questions just deal with dogs because I keep dogs. Can Ms Lynch point to specific enforcement failures under the current Dog Breeding Establishments Act? What concrete changes would ensure compliance to end cruel breeding practices?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

A review of the whole Dog Breeding Establishments Act is really needed. It is well overdue.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is now under the Department of agriculture, which has taken that over.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

Yes. Policy and legislation sit with the Department of agriculture and the implementation of it still sits with local authorities.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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When was it done last?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

I think there was a review in 2019, but I could be wrong. The Deputy should not hold me to that. There are also the guidelines that need to be looked at. The Dog Breeding Establishments Act looks more at the functional licensing parts of it and so forth, and what they have to display. You then have the guidelines, which are more about the care of the dog in those establishments. They need to be looked at. The guidelines are not on a statutory footing like the Act is, but judges have referred to them in court cases in terms of what they should be and what guidelines the establishment should be following. We really need to see an update of the Act. We need to see it reviewed to encompass the breeders outside it, as Deputy Kenny alluded to.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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How many dogs have come into the trust that are not microchipped? What is the rough percentage?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

It changes due to the way society goes. Sometimes it can be 50:50, with half coming in not chipped. You might get a high number that are chipped but are not registered. A chip is useless if it is not registered correctly. It might come in chipped and registered to an old owner, the initial breeder, or the first owner.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It was passed on. Nobody owns over half the dogs that come in, is that it?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

Pretty much.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Ms Lynch said they have communication with the local authority dog pounds. Is that to take dogs from the dog pound?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

Yes. We work closely with local authority pounds across the country to identify what dogs are most at risk.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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What percentage are they taking from them weekly, if there were ten dogs, for example? It is 70%. How many dogs are being put down? They are not rehoming all the dogs.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

How many are being put down with us? Our main function is to rehome all the dogs.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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What do they do when they do not get them rehomed? Do they put them down?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

No.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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They never put down a dog.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

We never destroy a healthy dog. We will keep working with the dog. That is why we have a behaviourist. We will keep training them and working on them. We have had dogs there for years, but we will keep them there. We have had some dogs there so long they have died naturally on site because they have never been rehomed. We have certain dogs called the underdogs. They are there longest and are harder to rehome. We always push them. We will keep working with them.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Do they ever turn away dogs?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

We have criteria we have to look at because we have limited space.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is what I mean.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

We can only fit a certain number in so we might not have space.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Where would the dog they cannot take in come from?

Would it come from the pound that collects them in the counties?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

It could. The pounds will link with our regional teams to identity dogs that are most at risk or that we can help, some of which may require our specialist behaviour. They may be mums that are pregnant and have to come to the maternity unit. There could be members of the public coming in with a dog and we will try to keep the dog in their homes. We will not take it into the centre. We can offer training and work with people on how they can keep the dog in the home. Sometimes, we have to refer a dog to the local authority pound if there is no space. We also work very closely with other rescue centres across the country. We never say a full-on "No" to anyone. We always exhaust every option.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Is the rehoming of dogs increasing or decreasing?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

Does the Deputy mean in general or in Dogs Trust?

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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In Dogs Trust.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

It is pretty steady at most times. Every year, we receive 900 to 1,000 dogs. When we see bad breeding establishments increasing, it gets more challenging for us as that can block up our system because we have more tricky dogs to rehabilitate and try to rehome. It then takes longer to work the dogs through the centre, from when they come in until when they are ready to go home. Some dogs are so traumatised by experiences they have been through in their early days that they may be on medication for the rest of their lives. Sometimes, we need a special owner because the problem is that people think they can get a dog at the click of a finger. We are used to buying things off the Internet, but we need owners who think about it.

William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Dogs Trust is doing good work. I wish it well and hope its financing continues.

Last year, I dealt with a type of case that never came up in all my time as a councillor. Laois County Council was allocating houses in Portlaoise and a lady rang me who had been successful in getting a house from a voluntary body. She was taken off the housing list. She rang me in floods of tears one morning at 7.15 a.m. saying that she was after getting a letter in the post saying she could not bring her dog. She had her dog for 13 years. To be fair, I acknowledge that the chief executive of Laois County Council intervened and the lady was made an exceptional case and allowed to bring her dog. This was a house, not an apartment, and it was never said that this was a part of taking ownership of the house. I thank all the people in the country who look after their dogs well. There is an awfully high number of dogs being brought up very poorly.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in to the committee. I have visited Dogs Trust, which is a wonderful facility. The work the organisation does and the kindness and care its staff show dogs are second to none. It seems as if it is under siege because of the number of dogs being surrendered. The witnesses mentioned that the organisation could not take in surrenders. People are now just leaving dogs at the gate and disappearing. It must be really difficult, emotionally and mentally, for all the people working in animal rescue centres to deal with the cruelty and abuse they see every day. I acknowledge the wonderful work those staff do.

Everybody who is involved in legislation should be compelled to go and visit a rescue, whether it is Dogs Trust or one of the other many rescue centres. I often say in the Seanad that rescues are a reflection of Government failure in the area of dog welfare. I am not sure if statistics are available on the number of rescue centres, but there are an awful lot of them around. The work they do around the country in the regional hubs and in other rescue facilities is incredible. The staff experience stress and show great commitment. A lot of the rescue centres are surviving on a pittance. What makes it worse is that when they get a tiny grant from the Government they are expected to thank the Government, even though they are doing what the Government has failed to do. I find that really frustrating. Ms Lynch said, "Our ambition is to make Ireland the best country in the world for dogs and the people who love them." It would be nice if the Government adopted that policy because we would no longer have the welfare issues we have now around dogs.

The number of dogs being put to sleep is alarming. It shows the failure of the Government to deal with dog welfare issues and the surrender and rescue of dogs. Traceability is a huge issue, as is microchipping, which the witnesses alluded to earlier.

On breed-specific bans, in the previous Dáil term, the then Minister, Heather Humphreys, introduced a breed-specific ban on XL bully dogs. All evidence shows that breed bans do not work. They do not work anywhere else in the world, and they are not working here. The owner is generally the problem. If the owner of a dog is not looking after it, whether it is worrying sheep or in the city, the owner, not the dog, should be held responsible. The XL bully breed is expected to pick up the tab for a Government failure and owner behaviour. That is just not right.

The Government gave €19 million to the greyhound sector, which still allows surgical artificial insemination. I raised this issue recently in the Seanad. A lot of people are not aware that this procedure involves the female dog being cut open and having its uterus is removed, after which semen is inserted, the uterus is reinserted, the wound is sewn up and the bitch has to carry the pups until birth, while recovering from that. This is a sector that gets €19 million of taxpayers' funds.

There was a case involving four dogs in Parteen in County Clare. Clare Animal Welfare inquired about what was happening with them, as did I. There is no come-back or accountability for what happens. The CEO of Greyhound Racing Ireland said that 3,000 greyhounds are being killed every year. I believe the figure is higher than that. That is just not acceptable. We have to do better. The Government has clearly failed, and the sooner that is acknowledged, the better. The Government's treatment of animals is lamentable.

Deputy Aird mentioned surrendering.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The Senator is leaving very little time for the witnesses to respond.

Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein)
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In relation to the NTA, a lot of people have said to me there is trouble on public transport already and adding dogs to that will not make things any easier. I do not agree. I ask the witnesses to comment on the NTA allowing dogs onto public transport.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

I thank the Senator for coming out to us recently. It was lovely to have him. I also thank him for his comments on our team. We are so lucky that we have a great team who work hands-on with the dogs. They have seen dogs coming in from horrific situations and have turned them around. All credit goes to the team in Dogs Trust working with the dogs.

In relation to the National Transport Authority consultation, I believe it is possible to allow dogs on public transport. Some people may have a concern. It is like everything related to making Ireland more accessible to dogs and their owners. It is about putting great infrastructure in place. Everything can have guidelines, boundaries and guardrails. It has to be done alongside education. We are trying to get people out of their cars and we want to encourage them to use public transport, but people cannot even bring their dog to the vet on a bus.

We submitted to the consultation, as I shared in the briefing document. It is really about education so that it is safe for dogs, for their owners, for passengers and operators alike. It is similar to what we did with the property rental situation. Everything is possible once there is good infrastructure in place and education to empower dog owners and empower those around them. It is something that could be given consideration. It works in the UK. Doctors in the UK have a partnership with Trainline where they provide guidance and education. We see dogs on public transport throughout most European countries. Once guidelines and education are introduced it is definitely possible.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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I lost our family pet five weeks ago. It is like losing one of the children in the house. We had him in the house for 13 years. He was one of two pets we had. It was devastating.

The former Minister, Heather Humphreys, was mentioned with regard to a Bill she brought in. We all know that dogs have been bred for badger baiting and for fighting. There is an element who breed dogs for those activities. It is barbaric to say the least. I welcome the legislation to ensure such dogs are being lifted from an element of people who are still breeding them. We see them coming into pounds on a regular basis.

I support everything that Dogs Trust Ireland is doing. Without the service it provides, God knows where we would be. Criteria are needed around puppy farms and around breeding. I fully believe that once a pup is born, it has to be brought to the vet to get the parvo shot and so on. A chip has be put into that dog and it has to be registered to the registered breeder. It is incumbent on the registered breeder if he sells that animal to somebody else that they, on a simple app, should be free to take up registration of that dog. Similarly, when an animal is born on the farm and that tag or system will follow on to the next owner, so the responsibility follows on to the next owner. If that animal gets out and does damage, there is a registered owner attached to it. That responsibility should always lie with the person that sells the animal. The licensing law needs to tighten up that.

I am a sheep owner. We know sheep worrying happens to flocks of sheep, especially at this time of the year. We have heard that from the hill farmers association. We 100% have to tighten up that part of the legislation, where ownership is registered to the next owner. Is every dog that Dogs Trust takes in and rehomes microchipped and registered to that owner? In regard to behavioural issues in dogs that DTI sees, when a family is rehoming that dog, how trustworthy can that dog be when it is brought into a new home with children? The ask from this committee is what more we can do with legislation to strengthen the hand of DTI and of dog owners.

Ms Niamh Curran-Kelly:

With regard to microchips, every single dog that comes through our door is checked for a chip. If it does not have a chip, it gets one. At that point, it is registered to us and we are the registered owner. When the dog goes to a new owner, that change of ownership is done again by us. The dog is sent home and the certificate is in the post a week or two later. As Ms Lynch said, the number of dogs we see that are chipped fluctuates. It is the law, so every single dog is chipped the moment they step through the door.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

An issue we are seeing across the country is that sometimes it is not happening. It is supposed to be that the dog is microchipped with the breeder. The whole purpose of the microchip was to have traceability to see it came from this breeder and ended up in the pound or it went to this home. We can see the journey that dog has taken and if we get a dog in, we can see it was born in a dog breeding establishment, DBE, and ended up in the pound. We can work with our behaviourist to understand the stress that dog has been through or, if it has been through three families at only one year old, we can say that no wonder it has this issue. That is where it should work. In my work with local authority dog wardens, they see that breeders might microchip dogs but not register them to themselves, or register to the owner they give or sell them to. There is then no trace of who the breeder is.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Is a licensed breeder not compelled to register that to themselves before they move it on?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

They should.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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If a puppy farm or a breeding centre has six breeding bitches or more - everyone knows the average litter of pups - and is not doing that, it is a failure straight away of the system.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

When local authorities go out to visit them they can see that the dogs were microchipped but they cannot tell whether they registered to themselves or the new owners. What we would like to see and what we call for is a Government-held database. If there is a database on every breeder that is with the Department of agriculture, and if every breeder had a profile on that database, that would then compel them to record all the details of the dogs they have on their sites, for example, how many breeding bitches they have, how many stud dogs they have, how many puppies are born, how many are born dead, how many die or are born with defects and whether they have microchipped them.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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A full database.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

Exactly. They can show the dogs are registered to themselves or who they registered them to when they have moved on. It is a failure of the regulations if both the buyer and the seller do not change the ownership. It is incumbent on both. We see that it does not happen; sometimes on one side and sometimes on both sides. We need to see the breeders doing it.

We are also hearing from local authority dog wardens not just about the licensed breeders but what we call backyard breeders. Backyard breeders are people with less than six breeding bitches. To be a qualified DBE requires six or more breeding bitches. Those with less than six are not registered as a DBE. We are seeing that some of these are buying chips online. They are not certified chips. They are not registered with the database and the breeders are implanting them. The wardens will see the number if they scan it and will know it is not with an official database. The breeders have chipped the dog themselves and are definitely not registering it to themselves. They tell the buyer they will send on the paperwork and change the details but nothing shows up. It is not on any official database. That is an issue that we see.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Should they be closed down, in Ms Lynch's opinion?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

That microchipping activity definitely should not be going on because it is illegal.

Paraic Brady (Fine Gael)
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Do we give powers to the pound to lift these animals at that point where they have not been registered? Is that legislation we need to give to local authorities?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

Every local authority is different when it comes to the powers dog wardens have, whether they are authorised under dog control, animal health and welfare or the DBEs. It might be an animal health matter if it is not a DBE. That would have to be looked at in an independent local authority situation. I would love to see all local authorities having a uniform approach to dog welfare.

I am so sorry for the Senator's loss, by the way. That is awful.

Michael Cahill (Kerry, Fianna Fail)
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I will be very brief. It may have been raised already or possibly at previous meetings, but sheep and lambs being killed by dogs is a huge problem in my county and no doubt in all other rural counties as well. There are repeated incidents and in cases in Kerry farmers have suffered not one or two but three attacks and huge financial losses as well as losing their stock. In the context of microchipping or whatever, what can we do that would improve that situation to protect farmers' sheep and lambs? I have no doubt that in the coming weeks and months I will be hearing about and seeing cases in my constituency of Kerry, as will others. What is the best way to address this?

Ms Sarah Lynch:

It is a very challenging situation, from what I see. It is horrific and awful and I really feel for the farmers, who go through such psychological torture when it comes to that. From everything we have heard, it is very distressing for all involved. Even the dog owner is sometimes unaware that it is even possible. We do not have the full solution but there has to be collaboration between local authorities, dog owners and the community. Some of the members, as TDs in the community, are hearing about what is going on. It really comes back to making dog owners aware of their responsibilities as dog owners and making them understand what they are taking on when they get a dog. We have to have ongoing education campaigns to inform people of the responsibility they are taking on when they get a dog. From talking to some wardens, they might see people moving from towns or urban settings to more rural settings within their county and they honestly do not think their dog could get out. They do not even put the thought into securing their property, first of all. That could be looked at on a community level with an awareness campaign.

Effective data also matters. We can never do anything if we do not have the data and do not understand what we can do to help. If there was a really great system in place whereby great data was collected such that we would be sure every single attack would be reported and collated, then we could identify the hot pockets and where exactly there are problems and we could look at establishing a really effective system. Why would the Government want to invest money in a big sheep-worrying campaign that was going to hit Dublin? We can forget about that and maybe focus on, say, the area in the Deputy's county where this is really common. What can we do? We can bring it back to the community and to the local level. It is a local issue, as the Deputy rightly said. The best place to start is with effective data collection so we can identify those pockets and what we can do, whether through national rescues like us, local rescues or getting the message out through dog wardens.

There is a lot to be said for community. People usually know and can identify those dogs that may be at risk or people who are a risk - irresponsible dog owners and so forth - and will know what can be done to try to help with that. It is a tough issue but it is about making dog owners aware of their rights and responsibilities as owners and working with the local communities and with farmers on what they can do to increase their coverage and security, although I am sure it is much more complex than I understand. I thank the Deputy for bringing it up.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Lynch. First, I acknowledge the loss in Senator Brady's family of their pet. A dog really does become part of the family. I see that at home and I know it from so many other households as well.

I have one or two quick questions. It was said that about half the dogs that come through to the trust are microchipped. I am trying to understand this. Owners have for a number of years been obliged to have their dogs chipped. Are the dogs coming to the trust without chips spread across all ages or are they mostly puppies? Does the trust get adult dogs that may have been born when it was not required? I am trying to get an understanding of whether there has been a change or which way it is going. Is the trust at this stage mostly getting puppies that have not been chipped?

Ms Niamh Curran-Kelly:

No, it is dogs of all ages.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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The trend is not towards chipping, or there does not appear to be a trend.

Ms Niamh Curran-Kelly:

I would say there has probably been an increase in the number of dogs coming to us that have been chipped. However, going back to the registration, if it is not up to date or if there is nothing on it at all, it is as if they have not been chipped. It is useless without the registration behind it.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

Throughout the country there have almost been phases. At the beginning, there was a huge blast of microchipping and there were awareness campaigns out there. We did some research around the time and for a couple of years thereafter. At lot of them had been chipped and that increased, but then it got to a point where there were a lot chipped but they were not registered or the correct details were not registered. With every change of ownership you have to update. I do not think people are aware that dogs have to be chipped registered and that they have to be in possession of the microchipping certificate to prove the dog has the chip and that they are the registered owner. We found certain steps were missing. We did amnesties for people to change their details free of charge, because there is a cost associated. Speaking to dog wardens now, there may be an increase in chipping but is the dog registered on one of the Irish databases? Are they Irish chips? Are they coming in via the Internet from abroad? While dogs might be chipped, as Ms Curran-Kelly said, that is completely useless if it is not an Irish chip registered on one of the four databases, if there is no information or if the details are for the initial breeder whose phone number does not work any more. These trends go up and down.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Does the trust sterilise or neuter the dogs it rehomes before they are passed on to a new owner?

Ms Niamh Curran-Kelly:

A lot of the dogs that are coming through are puppies so they go home with vouchers for neutering when the time is right. We neuter in house and we also send away a lot of people with vouchers to establish that relationship with their vet practice, because the information that people get through their vet is invaluable and we do not want to take away from that. The vets are there and they are solid pillars in every community for information throughout a dog's life. It is about establishing that meeting point immediately when adoption is happening.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Are the people who get these vouchers obliged to sterilise the dog?

Ms Niamh Curran-Kelly:

We follow up on them.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Is the trust getting 100% on that?

Ms Niamh Curran-Kelly:

We work with a lot of people.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

We work with local authorities across the country. Dog wardens usually identify those most at risk. With the cost-of-living crisis, for example, some owners cannot afford neutering, so we work with them.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I need to move to the topic Deputy Cahill raised, which we have discussed a number of times, relating to dogs worrying sheep. We have had witnesses in who outlined how, for example, a dog might be released off the lead to go for a run while the owner is out walking on a hill. There will be other dogs whose owners will not necessarily know where they are because they might have drifted off at home, but there are certainly dogs loose in the owner's full knowledge because they have been released on the hill when the owner is walking. That is a great concern to sheep owners. Many of my neighbours are sheep farmers.

I was in St. Gobnet's Wood over the weekend. There are signs all over the place asking people to ensure their dog is on a lead. Despite that, we come across them on the hill and there is concern from sheep farmers about the destruction that would be happening there. How should we deal with that and make it safer for sheep and for everybody involved?

Ms Niamh Curran-Kelly:

Dogs are animals and they have natural instincts. It comes down to responsible ownership. Someone walking in a field might not be aware of six sheep that are present, but the dog will know how many sheep are there. With our education campaign we are trying to let people know it is their responsibility to be in control of their dog at all times.

Ms Sarah Lynch:

We are back to the education campaign, the awareness campaign and the responsibility of dog owners. When people take on a dog, there is a safety element. Is their house secure? Do they have a secure property such that the dog cannot get out? Have they engaged in training classes? Is the dog even able to come back? I know that is not the absolute----

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of the person who goes for a walk on a hill and releases the dog. There is no amount of-----

Ms Sarah Lynch:

Training is an essential bedrock. A completely untrained dog is at more risk of getting out in general and getting everywhere. People need to look at their own property and the security measures for keeping the dog in for the protection of not just sheep but also people and everything else. It is also about choosing a dog wisely. Owners need to train their dog so that its behaviour is good enough in general. It is back to making dog owners aware of the responsibility and constantly hammering that home. If there is data, we can look at effective campaigns in specific areas.

Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
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As Deputy Ardagh did earlier, I thank responsible dog owners for looking after their dogs. I thank the Dogs Trust Ireland for the huge work its members too. That concludes the business for today.