Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 26 March 2026
Public Accounts Committee
Financial Statements 2024: Inland Fisheries Ireland
Financial Statements 2023: Inland Fisheries Ireland
Special Report No. 118 of the Comptroller and Auditor General: Governance, Internal Control and Value for Money Issues in Inland Fisheries Ireland
2:00 am
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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On behalf of the committee, I welcome the officials from Inland Fisheries Ireland: Professor Tom Collins, chair of the IFI board; Mr. Barry Fox, deputy chief executive officer; Ms Suzanne Campion, head of finance and corporate services; and Mr. John McPhillips, contract HR lead. We are also joined by officials from the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment attending in a representative capacity. I welcome Ms Oonagh Buckley, Secretary General; Ms Martina Hennessy, assistant secretary general; Mr. Gary Martin, principal officer; and Mr. Jim Whelan, principal officer. Finally, we are joined by officials from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General including the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, who is a permanent witness to the committee; and Ms Georgina O'Mahony, deputy director of audit. They are welcome before the committee this morning.
Before we begin I will explain some limitations to parliamentary privilege and the practice of the Houses as regards reference witnesses may make to other persons in their evidence. The evidence of witnesses physically present or who give evidence from within the parliamentary precincts is protected pursuant to both the Constitution and statute by absolute privilege. This means that witnesses have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, they are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if witnesses’ statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction. Witnesses are also reminded of the longstanding parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity.
Before we move to opening statements I will say that I think this is an unprecedented meeting this morning, having Inland Fisheries Ireland back before the committee so soon after having it here in December 2025. It is unprecedented and is born out of deep frustration at our previous engagement, which I think was less than helpful. There was a deep level of frustration among all members of the committee at the level of engagement and openness, or lack thereof, from IFI at that particular meeting. I ask that our witnesses are helpful today. If anyone feels they have any relevant information, I ask that they do not sit back and hold that information until the tail end of the meeting. I ask that they please be open, frank and forthcoming with any information they believe would be helpful for the committee in its deliberations and scrutiny of the financial accounts and affairs in Inland Fisheries Ireland.
I now call the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, for his opening statement.
Mr. Seamus McCarthy:
As members are aware, Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI, is the primary State agency with statutory responsibility for the management, protection and conservation of Ireland's inland fisheries and sea angling resources. These literally priceless resources include a huge network of natural waterways, important ecosystems and heritage artefacts, as well as diverse fish stocks. IFI was established under the Inland Fisheries Act 2010, amalgamating the former Central Fisheries Board and seven former regional fisheries boards. Amalgamating the boards was intended to achieve a more cohesive national approach to the work, and to achieve greater effectiveness and efficiency. The board of a State body is responsible for ensuring that effective systems of internal control are put in place and implemented. These include financial, operational and compliance controls, and the system for risk management.
The special report was undertaken to review a number of concerns regarding IFI's governance and the adequacy of its internal control systems. As the issues reported upon have been discussed previously by this committee, I do not intend to itemise them again today. I might point out that the nature, volume and complexity of the concerns raised about IFI's governance and systems of control were such that they could not be adequately dealt with in the course of an annual financial audit. My aim in issuing the special report was to try to clarify matters and to eliminate certain misunderstandings that had arisen. As it happens, some of the matters reported on have continued to evolve. My office has encouraged IFI to be as transparent as possible in its financial reporting about those matters and how they are being dealt with. One of the consequences of the governance issues that emerged is that, for a number of years, financial reporting by IFI has not been as timely as it should be. I can report to the committee that I certified the 2024 financial statements on 24 March 2026, that is, just two days ago. I intend, with the co-operation of IFI's management and board, that the audit of the 2025 financial statements will be completed before the end of this year, and that IFI's financial reporting will remain as timely as possible in the future.
To summarise briefly, the financial results for 2024 are as follows. IFI's income amounted to €42.7 million. Just under 90% of the income comes from State funding sources. Much of the remaining income relates to fee income for permits and licences, fishery rates, fines and forfeitures and project income. IFI's expenditure amounted to €41.9 million. More than 70% of the expenditure, or €30.7 million, was in respect of remuneration and other pay costs. The balance was spent on non-pay field operations and administration. I issued a clear audit opinion in relation to the 2024 financial statements. However, I drew attention in my audit report to a number of matters.
First, note 6f to the financial statements discloses salary payments totalling €155,000 made in 2024 to the former chief executive officer. He was on leave from March 2024 until his employment with IFI ceased in early June 2025. Salary payments totalling €77,000 were made in respect of the period from January 2025 to June 2025. In addition, the former chief executive officer received payments totalling €145,000 in lieu of the remainder of his contract term to November 2025 and for accrued leave untaken. A Workplace Relations Commission case subsequently taken by the former chief executive officer against IFI is ongoing.
Second, I drew attention to a disclosure in the statement on internal control about how income from a salmon tag bounty scheme was handled within IFI. The scheme was operated by the Marine Institute as part of a long-term salmon stock research programme. Over the period 2010 to 2023, the Marine Institute made bounty payments totalling €41,500 in respect of IFI staff participation in recovery of the tags. Bounty payments totalling €13,500 were lodged to bank accounts within the ownership of IFI and were recognised as income in the financial statements for the period from 2010 to 2014. However, from 2010 to 2023, further bounty payments totalling €28,000 were made to individual staff members and into bank accounts not controlled by IFI. Inland Fisheries Ireland investigated this matter following a protected disclosure, and has reinforced its controls around contract income.
Third, IFI discloses that it has incurred costs of €205,000 to date in respect of a collision that occurred in 2021 involving one of 15 vehicles in its fleet that were uninsured for a period due to an administrative oversight. There is also an ongoing Workplace Relations Commission case related to this matter.
Fourth, non-compliant procurement totalling €717,000 in 2024 was identified, relating to nine suppliers. The manner in which IFI's contracts register operated did not identify a significant number of the non-compliant procurement contracts.
Finally, members will recall that in March 2023, IFI discovered that formal delegated authority allowing its officers to initiate prosecutions was not in place. As a result, certain prosecution cases had to be discontinued. The statement on internal control for 2024 discloses that IFI had incurred expenditure of almost €277,000 in respect of its own and defendants' legal costs in withdrawn cases, and that it is awaiting court rulings in respect of legal costs for five other cases.
While it is regrettable to have to continue to report in this way, it is important that IFI bottoms out these governance and control issues, and takes the necessary steps to avoid any re-occurrence. This will allow it to bring its primary focus back to the vital tasks of protecting, preserving and developing the invaluable waterways, fish stocks and ecology within its remit.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I will now ask the chair of the board to deliver the opening statement on behalf of Inland Fisheries Ireland. As set out in the letter of invitation, Professor Collins now has five minutes to make his opening statement.
Professor Tom Collins:
I thank the committee for the opportunity of being here.
The Cathaoirleach referenced the meeting of 4 December. I looked at that meeting online. It was highly charged. Looking at it as an external person, it was clear to me that this was damaging to the organisation, to its reputation and to its credibility in the public domain. We have, of course, since that meeting, clarified some of the issues, which I have also dealt with in my opening statement. There were a variety of misdirections and misapprehensions by members of the committee with regard to some of the questions that were being asked, particularly with regard to car insurance and with regard to an alleged review conducted by the then Minister, Eamon Ryan. For the record, the then Minister, Eamon Ryan, never commissioned a review on the matter that was being discussed. Also for the record, the matter of the uninsured vehicle was never an issue that a summons was issued on with regard to insurance. A summons had been issued but it was not with regard to insurance. I simply want to place that on the record.
As a new board of IFI - we are in place since January 2024 - we accepted the special audit report that the Comptroller and Auditor General has referred to. We accepted all its findings. We do not challenge them. We have set about attempting to deal with what is undoubtedly a very negative legacy.
As I said, we are accepting all the findings in the report. We recognise this board is tasked with a serious job of cleaning up and dealing with the backwash. It is difficult to escape history, and it tends to catch up with us in all kinds of ways. This history is still lapping around our ankles, if I can mix my metaphors.
I am conscious I have limited time, but there are three things we now need to achieve as an organisation. First, as the Chair has indicated, we need to deal with any outstanding questions this committee has, and we will attempt to do that as well and as effectively as we can today. Second, we need to give an assurance that the systems to which the C and AG has referred are in place to ensure we are not back here again. Third, it is important to quickly call attention to the role, purpose and effectiveness of the organisation.
Because of the shortage of time, I will address a few quick issues people were concerned about. At the meeting of this committee on 4 December, the delegation was asked about protected disclosures, PDs. We have had 38 PDs into the organisation since 2022. Of that 38, 29 were anonymous. The majority of them were not moved onto the threshold or were not considered to meet the threshold as a PD, or alternatively, they did not stand up when investigated. Of the 39 that were submitted, it appears that a minority - certainly less than five - stood up and were upheld in investigation. However, it raises a question, and committee members also raised this, about the culture of the organisation. It is important with regard to PDs to say that any one member can submit multiple PDs. It is not in any way confined; there is no limit on what one can do. We are obviously trying to deal with anonymous PDs, which raise very serious resource challenges when we do not know the source. However, we have appointed a subcommittee of the board for culture and people. At the end of this year, we will launch a culture audit. When this board was appointed, we took on the task of meeting all of the staff in the field. We went around to all the regions and met the staff there. We found that the staff were generally very highly committed, had a high level of expertise and were highly dedicated. Anecdotally, I do not experience a culture issue in the organisation, but I realise and accept that people may take a different view on this.
As regards the reputation of the organisation, we are dealing with a WRC case, which the C and AG referenced, with regard to the former CEO. He has taken a case in the public domain for unfair dismissal. I will not be able to deal with this today, and I apologise for that now, because it is sub judicein the sense that we have sat for three days already in the WRC in the beginning of March, and we are looking at another four days designated for the end of June and the first three days of July. There is no guarantee the case will finish then. I can give the committee an absolute undertaking that we will, of course, provide to the committee whatever findings emerge from the WRC.
With regard to the long-term issues and the role and effectiveness of the organisation, it is important to point out, as I do in my statement, that we have 74,000 km of waterways in Ireland. On top of that, we have 300,000 acres of lakes. As far as I know, we have a coastline that is roughly the same length as that of France. Ireland has a massive job to protect its waterways. I have worked all my life in the world of higher education, where we talk about stats and student ratios all the time. To give a crude calculation, the ratio of patrolling range per person in IFI is about 320 km, which is 60 km more than the distance between Dublin and Cork. I mention that simply to say that this presents an enormous challenge in terms of managing prosecutions and managing and responding to pollution spills.
We had a tragic development in the River Blackwater in August. We estimate we lost anything up to 40,000 fish in the fish kill on that river. IFI was criticised by various people with regard to its response rate, in particular the failure to identify the source of the pollution. It is a matter of great regret that we did not. At the behest of the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, we commissioned an independent review of our handling of that particular episode. That was done and concluded on 30 January this year. The independent review was carried out by the EU joint research council. It concluded, by and large, that IFI had managed the investigation competently and comprehensively. However, it also drew attention to the fact that we did not communicate it very well, and called attention to the need, in particular, for an emergency inter-agency protocol. We are now leading out on the development of such a protocol and hope to have it completed in the coming weeks. Moving to my final point, with the indulgence of the Chair, the review also drew attention to the cumulative pressure on rivers like the River Blackwater. This pressure arises from multiple sources, but it is reasonable to assume that any river in Ireland that is in an area of intense agriculture and intense industrial development is going to be under severe pressure.
Questions were raised at the 4 December meeting regarding the River Boyne. I have lived on the Boyne for 30 years. I do not want to overstate things, but the Boyne is a sacred river in Ireland. It is named after the goddess Boann. It has sustained life in Ireland for 5,000 years, and in the past 50 years it has practically died as a river. The work of peat harvesting, drainage and intensive agriculture, along with a variety of other players, has managed to reduce, in combination, the returning salmon stock to the Boyne, which as the committee knows gave us the salmon of knowledge, to 10% of its conservation threshold. I feel that modern Ireland has become desensitised, or is increasingly desensitised, to the aesthetic ethic of environmental protection. In my view, it is simply a linear progression from people littering streets to polluting the River Blackwater or other rivers.
I will conclude by speaking about regulation of the environment. Given that the Secretary General of the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment is here, I do not want to speak for the Department here. The regulation of the environment and the achievement of water goals, carbon goals and climate goals is and is going to be a challenging undertaking. There is push-back from multiple interests and forces in the country, as is the case everywhere. We believe we are an important part of an ecosystem of regulatory bodies that are saving and doing their best to protect the environment from the kind of onslaught the River Blackwater incident drew our attention to.
The current discomfiture of IFI is probably of some comfort to those interests. In a sense, that places an even greater responsibility on us to solve the governance problems the Chair and the Comptroller and Auditor General alluded to.
While the events under scrutiny today predate the appointment of the current board in most instances, though I accept not all because the accounts for 2024 have now been presented to the Dáil, we completely understand as a board we will be judged on our effectiveness in dealing with the clean-up and backwash from these historical events. We recognise the absolute imperative of satisfying all our accountability responsibilities in this regard, including reporting to this committee, such that we regain public confidence in our capacity to deliver on the crucial national objectives we have been entrusted with.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I invite the Secretary General to make her opening statement on behalf of the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
I thank the committee for the opportunity to engage with it today on these important matters. In addition to the officials already referenced, I am joined today by Ms Catherine McGinty, principal officer, inland fisheries section, working under Ms Martina Hennessy who has responsibility for the inland fisheries function in the Department. Mr. Jim Whelan is the head of finance and Mr. Gary Martin is the head of internal governance in the Department.
Inland Fisheries Ireland, IFI, plays a critical statutory role in protecting and managing the State’s inland fishery resource, as the chair of the board outlined so eloquently. It is a non-commercial body established by statute in 2010. It is primarily funded by the Exchequer, with some €35 million provided annually by the Department to IFI. I am sorry my phone is ringing. It is my Minister, who has forgotten I am at the Committee of Public Accounts this morning. As is the case with all aegis bodies, it is important that the organisation operates to the highest standards of governance, accountability and transparency. The Department takes its responsibilities for the State bodies under its aegis very seriously. Strong structures are in place to ensure a consistent and robust approach is adopted in this regard.
The issues that arose in IFI, and which have led to the report under discussion today, were very serious and unacceptable and were treated as such by the Department. These matters have been very damaging for the agency and it has a significant task ahead of it to restore and maintain public confidence. Transparency and ongoing Oireachtas scrutiny will be an important element of this process. It is important to note the significant work that has been undertaken since 2023 to address these issues. A comprehensive programme of reform was developed by IFI, informed by an independent review carried out by EY, at the Department's insistence, to address the issues identified. It is encouraging that all recommendations arising from the EY review have been implemented, including measures to strengthen board oversight, clarify roles and responsibilities and improve governance and reporting arrangements. I acknowledge and commend the work of the chair and board members since their appointment in January 2024 to strengthen and embed governance standards and procedures within the organisation. It is to be acknowledged that it is brave of people to take over as board members of an organisation in such public disarray so they are to be commended on that. The Department remains actively engaged with IFI and its board to ensure these changes are sustained.
The EY review also included a number of recommendations for the Department, all of which have also been implemented. These focused on strengthening oversight and engagement arrangements, clarifying roles and responsibilities and enhancing reporting and information flows between the Department and IFI. In this context, it is important to note that the Department’s role is one of oversight, support and escalation. This role is discharged through formal governance mechanisms, including governance agreements and regular governance engagements. These mechanisms provide structured monitoring of performance, financial management, and compliance, while respecting the board’s independence and avoiding involvement in day-to-day operational matters.
In recognition that corporate governance is constantly evolving, the Department has recently established a dedicated corporate governance unit in respect of our non-commercial agencies. We previously had one for the commercial agencies. This unit supports a more co-ordinated, consistent and structured approach to governance and builds internal governance capability within the Department to ensure governance frameworks are applied in a more systematic way across all our agencies. The Department is also progressing new legislation to support IFI in delivering on its statutory remit. Much of our inland fisheries legislation is dated and fragmented, which makes it complex for IFI to enforce. Modernisation will help to streamline this regulatory framework, provide stronger enforcement tools and address pressures such as climate change, water quality and habitat degradation, all of which are essential to protecting our inland fishery resource.
As I mentioned earlier, a number of the matters discussed previously by the committee relate to issues that are the subject of protected disclosures or relate to ongoing employment cases. While some information may have entered the public domain, both the Department and IFI remain subject to the strict confidentiality obligations set out in the Protected Disclosures Act. For that reason, I hope the committee will appreciate that there may be limits to the level of detail, replies or commentary that can be provided in relation to certain matters. To the best of our ability we will answer the questions posed by members of the committee, but it will be within those statutory constraints. We look forward to assisting the committee members with any questions they may have.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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People should note that we will suspend proceedings at approximately 12.30 p.m. for a 15-minute break. I will now open the floor to members. The lead speaker today is Deputy Boland, who has 15 minutes. All other members have ten minutes. If time permits, on conclusion of the first round of questions and with the agreement of the witnesses, we will open up a second round of shorter supplementary questions.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The witnesses are all very welcome. I thank them for signing off the 2024 accounts in time for this meeting. We did not think we would have them so I really appreciate the efforts they made in getting them to us yesterday. I echo Ms Buckley's comments about people stepping into directorship roles, particularly when organisations have a history of tricky and complicated issues, so I thank them for that. That is not to say that I am not going to test them.
IFI has occupied far too much of the time of this committee. Its objective is to protect, manage and conserve Ireland's inland fisheries and we want to see it do so, but we have to be assured that corporate governance is in order, all the issues have been resolved and, as best we can, that we can draw a line under matters today.
I will turn to the 2024 accounts. I appreciate that matters are before the WRC, so I will try to go through this gingerly. The 2024 accounts make reference to the CEO contract and his departure. Was that CEO contract the template Department of public expenditure contract for CEOs for non-commercial space?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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We have been informed that the CEO was on leave for a period from March 2024 to June 2025. At any stage, was he paid full salary or half salary? What did the payment look like for that period?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate that. We will go carefully.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Was there a legal basis for moving him to half pay?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Did the template contract contain a termination clause?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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On three months' notice in writing. That is the standard and what is in the template at 6.1.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Was the termination by mutual agreement?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Did IFI serve notice of termination on him?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What date did IFI serve notice of termination?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It looks to us like the contract was terminated in June 2025. Was notice also served in June 2025 or was it served three months before then?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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He was paid in lieu-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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-----for the three months.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That brings us up to October 2025, if three months were paid in lieu. There was then an element of annual leave that was paid out. How much annual leave-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Did annual leave make up-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There was a payment of €145,000, but in reality those payments related to the three months' payment in lieu of notice and all annual accrued holidays.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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IFI was not legally obliged to pay out a contract. It was not contractually obliged.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is different.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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We need to be very careful here.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What I am hearing is it was almost coincidental that the contract was to expire in November, in that the IFI paid the three months' notice in lieu. Plus accrued leave, that took it up to November.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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IFI was legally obliged to pay three months.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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IFI would have been obliged to pay the three months anyway.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It had to pay the three months anyway.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Professor Collins said IFI paid out the contract. How much annual leave was on top of those three months?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Professor Collins is really saying IFI only paid an additional three weeks.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Yes, but IFI would have had to pay three months of those anyway.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Plus you would-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It was three months plus five weeks. Essentially, we are saying there was only really a three-week payment out to the expiry of the contract.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is what IFI was legally obliged to do. Looking at it the other way, we can get into setting precedents that do not need to be set.
Professor Tom Collins:
Sure. There was an entitlement, as there is in everybody's contract, to the three months in lieu. This was paid up. There was an entitlement to holiday leave. That was paid up. I will have to clarify with Ms Campion the specifics of the totality because I am concerned that I do not mislead the Deputy in any way on this. There was five months' salary, which was paid out in the contract. In addition to that five months' salary, there was three months. I think the question I am being asked is whether that was in addition to the five months' salary or part of the five months' salary.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Will Ms Campion please be clear? We really need to move along on this. Will she be very clear as to what was actually paid? Was there a severance payment here? That is what I am asking.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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On what basis can Ms Campion make that statement?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Will Ms Campion talk me through the actual payments? What did IFI pay for?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The template contract clearly states that IFI can terminate on three months' notice. Why did it pay over and above that?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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What is that payment classed as? Is it a severance payment? Is it a termination payment?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Did the termination letter state reasons for the termination?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is the basis on which the IFI-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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-----received legal advice-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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-----to pay out the contract.
In terms of investigations and protected disclosures, IFI is only a cottage industry in protected disclosures, which I hope we can draw a line under. There are seven investigations in total, one of which is active. What is the status update on the one active case?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Will the Secretary General confirm the status of the one active case or investigation?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is the protected disclosures, but the Department's letter referred to investigations. There are two investigations into the report in 2023 and two investigation reports in 2024 and 2025. Two investigation reports concluded in 2024 and 2025 and one investigation initiated in 2025 remains in progress.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Did the Department receive one since 16 January?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Was that a protected disclosure? An anonymous-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Are there any Garda investigations? Has the Department had any updates from the Garda?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
Just very recently, as the Deputy may be aware, on foot of a close investigation that took place, which involved the question of insurance for a car that was involved in an accident, and based on the conclusion of that investigation, I wrote to An Garda Síochána. I referred the matter to them to ask them to look into it to see whether any criminal matter arose. They wrote back to us and said they required a complainant, as such. We had some toing and froing with IFI as to whether we or it would be the complainant. IFI did not feel it could be the complainant on the basis it did not itself believe there was a criminal offence created. On reflection and having taken internal legal advice, on Monday I signed a letter to the Garda saying they could take it that this was an official complaint. In other words, the Department has taken on the role of being the complainant in this case.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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That is now with the Garda.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the IFI review, reference was made to IFI expecting to see an external review being instructed once the new CEO is in place and that it is great it has now engaged a new CEO.
Has there been any preparatory work done on setting out the terms of reference for what that review will look like?
Ms Martina Hennessy:
I thank the Deputy for her question. We have not specifically drawn up the terms of reference, but we have been referring to matters such as the C and AG's report and the various reviews that have been conducted in the past. We will be using that report in conjunction with talking with the new CEO when he takes up position on 13 April. The Minister's intention is to write to the IFI after he takes up that position and to request that it set up and run that review. That was the approach that was taken in the EY governance report, namely, that this is a matter for the organisation to have ownership of. However, we will be working with it in developing the terms of reference for the review.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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On the legacy issues and all the cultural issues that have been referred to, I assume the Department will have very active engagement in that regard?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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On supporting the IFI through this transition period in order that it can get back to focusing on the day job, what does that engagement with the Department look like?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
I will go back to the EY report because that is a good analogy. It is great that we have a very strong CEO coming in. Both Ms Hennessy and I have worked with him in the past at An Coimisiún Pleanála, so we know him. What we are intending is that the review will be supportive of him onboarding into the organisation and making sure that he has a clear mandate to drive the important changes on the corporate governance side and the cultural changes colleagues in the IFI referred to.
Regarding the EY report, I was not around at the beginning of that process, but colleagues in the Department worked with the two section 18 appointees on the terms of reference for it. They were engaged in dealing with EY as it prepared that review. After the section 18 inspectors, I was briefed on the content of that draft report to make sure we were comfortable with what was coming out of it. We felt it addressed all the necessary points in terms of the governance. Obviously, our own Department was reflected in it. It was important that that be there. I anticipate that is the kind of hands-on approach that we will have towards this. I certainly anticipate being briefed on the contents of that review before it is closed off.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I thank the witnesses for coming before us. To follow up on the payments to the former CEO, was approval sought by the IFI from the Department for those payments?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Did the Department sign off or indicate approval of this process?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Obviously, the IFI was paying over and beyond what it was legally required to pay. Did it seek to get an agreement with the former CEO that this would be a full and final settlement and that no further money would be sought?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Was a document to that effect signed?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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The IFI sought it and it was declined.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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The IFI decided, based on advice and so on, that it should proceed with the full payout in any case.
To go back to the period from 4 March 2024 to 4 June 2025, the former CEO was being paid during that entire period, mostly at full-time salary and for part of that period at half-time salary. What sort of leave was the CEO on?
Professor Tom Collins:
Again, I am conscious of the rights of the employee under data protection and confidentiality. I can say in a general way that an employee in this nature can have sick leave, holiday leave, voluntary leave and garden leave. I am not saying that applied in this case and I am not trying to be pedantic in this. It was a different combination of those. It is important to say, and I can say this without impacting the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, that we could have gone down legal routes. We went into mediation. We could have gone down a legal route but chose not to do that because of exposure to other kinds of costs.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Over this period from 4 March 2024 to 4 June 2025, when the individual was being paid, it was registered somewhere at all times that he was on a certain type of leave, without going into the designation. There may have been different periods of leave.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Ms Campion is the finance person in this. She signing off on the continuing payments to somebody on different bases over time. Was she kept apprised of that as it happened?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Did the payroll tell Ms Campion that the IFI was paying this person because he was on X sort of leave, Y sort of leave or Z sort leave as time went on or was it just being paid, knowing that the person was not working?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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As the person who signs off on spending money, was Ms Campion aware of what sort of leave the former CEO was on?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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She was just told it was leave.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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On it being just "leave", now it has been clarified that there were designated types of leave. The average worker in the State, whether in the public or private sector, cannot be off on uncategorised leave for a year and three months and get paid. Professor Collins said that there was an appropriate categorisation. One can dispute whether it was accurate, but there was a certain type of leave at each moment.
Professor Tom Collins:
In all cases, there was. Over the period, we had several special board meetings on this. If we look at the accounts, there were 14 meetings in 2024 and 16 meetings in 2025. Many of them dealt with the situation concerning the CEO. My colleagues here were not included in these meetings. One of the reasons I wanted to present to the committee today was that my colleagues did not have access to the decision-making because of the confidentiality requirements we were working under. In all cases, every move we made was made with legal advice.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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That is recorded in minutes, presumably, as to the different types of leave and so on.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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To zoom out a bit, in Professor Collins's opening statement, he made very important points about the importance of our waterways and the decline in quality water. I agree entirely with the points he made about the River Boyne. When we look at the numbers that IFI has presented, there is one front-line member of staff for every 315 km of waterway, every 1,200 acres of lakes with coastline and estuaries. There are then marine responsibilities on top of that. In some ways, do some of the cultural issues flow from this? Is this an organisation that, in terms of resources, is set up to fail, a bit like the financial regulator, which, at one stage, had three staff sitting on Anglo Irish Bank and Bank of Ireland? There was no way it could properly regulate. Is what is happening here effectively that the IFI is so underresourced that it cannot protect our waterways?
Professor Tom Collins:
It is a really interesting question. In one sense, with the scale of the job you have to look at prioritising some parts of it. You almost have to say "well, we are not going to look there". You have to make very good decisions about technology. Digital technology and real-time monitoring are investments we need to make on top of the staffing resource. As for being on hand to watch for massive instances of what I always categorise as environmental crime - because this is not negligence but criminal negligence - it is very difficult to be every place at the same time, for sure. There are multiple things. In my submission but not my opening statement I said we have been dealing with the Department on new legislation. The Minister has specifically asked us to talk about fines. The maximum fine we impose for environmental crime is €5,000.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Yes.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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The European Commission, in its report on the Blackwater fish kill, said we should have fines of 3% of the annual EU turnover of the operator, which could be very substantial amounts into the millions depending on the operator.
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Why has that not happened? Why do we have such pitiful levels of fines for environmental crimes?
Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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I have a final question. Professor Collins referred to the River Boyne. Parts of the Boyne, as well as 466 of our rivers, have been redesignated as heavily modified water bodies, which effectively means they do not have to reach the same high standards of environmental health as other rivers and lakes. It is not IFI doing this but we are calling attention to the declining standards of our rivers and in particular the Boyne and then we are redesignating them in a way that means they do not have to meet the same standards. Does this have an impact on the work IFI is required to do or expected to do?
Professor Tom Collins:
No. Our work on rivers is so focused on salmon and the salmonid species. Again, I should have said in my address but I have it in the statement that we have a project on the Boyne led by a small team. It is on the Knightsbrook River outside Trim where people are restoring spawning grounds by putting gravel into the river. I saw the Boyne being drained in the 1970s and there was a devastating impact on the river and on the landscape. Obviously people who have been protected from flooding since then would not agree with me on that but we probably need to look at joined-up thinking in this regard. For instance, I suspect much of the flooding of the Boyne occurred due to the depletion of the bogs to the west of Trim. Are there other ways of retaining a great cistern of water? The Boyne in summer is reduced to a trickle and in the winter it floods. We need a management system that is very different. I am sorry, I do not want to be going on.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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My first question is probably for Mr. Fox. The last time the witnesses were here I raised concerns and asked questions specifically about the National Coarse Fishing Federation of Ireland in 2021, whether it had a sufficient accreditation programme in place and whether it was qualified to deliver the tender specifications that had been awarded. There was a commitment to circulate information on that to the committee. I did not see that response and the response to PAC queries sent on 14 January.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Briefly, if you can.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. If Ms Campion leaves it with the clerk I will look at it. That is appreciated.
I will move to the 2024 accounts. I do not mind who takes this question but it should probably be Professor Collins. He gave a lot of information and offered a lot of reassurance in his opening contribution about how the board will be judged on its effectiveness at cleaning up legacy issues, of which there are many. On the one hand he was saying that and on the other hand his opening statement is effectively accusing this committee of causing reputational damage to his organisation. I think it is the reputational damage and the bad governance of the organisation that had it in this committee in the first place and subsequently has it back here, so Professor Collins needs to own that.
In the presentation on the 2024 accounts the Comptroller and Auditor General has drawn attention to multiple matters, yet again. We are talking about four or five matters. We have the issue of the CEO, which has been discussed; the salmon research programme and the lack of control of receipts and bounty payments there; the cost in relation to the uninsured vehicle; the non-compliant procurement, yet again; and the €277,000 in legal costs. I believe the organisation is awaiting court rulings and potentially more legal costs in additional cases. Despite all of that being outlined, I think I am right in saying that all of the IFI officials were in position prior to 2024. I am just not sure about Mr. McPhillips as I do not know whether he is in on a contract basis but Professor Collins, Mr. Fox and certainly Ms Campion, who has been around a long time, were all in their roles prior to that date. Therefore, how can we have belief in the leadership? How can we believe everything Professor Collins said in his opening contribution about being ready to clean this mess up once and for all and draw a line under it so we do not see IFI back here? I cannot be assured the organisation's 2025 accounts will reflect more favourably on it, considering the facts laid bare in front of us today.
Professor Tom Collins:
I want to clarify that nothing I said in my opening statement was of an accusatory nature. It was of a clarificatory nature and I would not even dream of going into that domain. Many of the issues the Deputy refers to are historical. I accept some of them are current. The procurement one is definitely current but the uninsured vehicles one is not. It is pre-2024. The costs associated with it are also pre-2024. I am not at all saying other than that. I am accepting fully that the burden of proof is on IFI on these matters. Let me be very clear on that. The organisation-----
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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So Professor Collins is confident that the 2025 accounts will not reflect as negatively on the organisation as those for 2024.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Time will tell.
The new CEO is due to take up their position in the coming weeks. Are all the organisation's board and leadership positions now filled?
Professor Tom Collins:
No. We are in process. We are three board members down. We are a small board anyway, as there are only ten of us. Last year we lost three members, for various reasons. One was through sickness and they ultimately passed away in January of this year. One left for professional reasons; she changed her job. One other member left and I cannot be sure exactly why but I suspect she may have had some issues with some policy positions. We are down to seven. We have the Public Appointments Service, PAS, working on filling those vacancies as we speak.
On the senior leadership team side, we have the new CEO starting work on 13 April with us. We have begun an induction process with him. He has met the board already, met the executive leadership team already. In the coming weeks we will be meeting individually with each of the board members. We are concluding a process which the CEO involved in, in filling the post of head of HR, people and culture. We are also coming to the conclusion of filling a post for head of ICT. Certainly we need to strengthen the senior management team. Clearly when the new CEO comes in, as has been mentioned, we would hope the review that was raised here might also work in our favour and draw attention to areas where we do need new staff, new specialists and experts.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What is the longest period that any of those senior leadership roles have been unfilled?
Professor Tom Collins:
The head of ICT is a new role. The head of HR has been vacant. We filled that post last year. It was filled initially on an interim basis, then on a full-time basis by the same person but then that person left. We now have an interim person in place. The HR function, since I have been around, has never been unoccupied, though not necessarily by the same person.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In the conclusion of the written submission, not IFI's verbal contribution today, it states "It can be reasonably concluded that Ireland will not reach its carbon/ climate, biodiversity or Water Framework Directive goals without robust environmental regulation." I presume IFI has had communication with the Department on what powers it might need to implement that. What has the response been?
Professor Tom Collins:
Yes, we have engaged with the Department. I consider we have a really positive working relationship with the Department. The Minister wrote to us back at the end of last summer, looking for input from IFI on legislative changes that the Department and the Minister were considering. We have made a detailed submission to that, which I think we have included in the documentation we supplied. We would be immediately saying the punishment needs to reflect the crime. That is one of our strong mantras around the environment. It is difficult to bring a prosecution through the courts in the case of a fish kill, in particular, without finding a direct source. I personally wonder if we should not have powers of entering premises, of seeking documentation to try to pin actions of criminal or nefarious activity on to perpetrators. I know Mr. Fox contemplated the legal issues a lot. He might want to comment on that.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I realise I am running out of time. I wanted to raise a few things with the Department but we are in the dying seconds of this. Professor Collins has highlighted that IFI has a really good working relationship with the Department and that is positive to hear. Considering the constant scandals, and the few years that have been in it, I am not ashamed to say that I do not have confidence that it will be any better next year but time will test that. I presume the officials are going to tell us today that they have full confidence in the IFI leadership. The thing I want to tease out is whether there was any consideration of rolling up IFI and giving its powers to another State body such as parks and services, for example, or something like that?
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is very honest.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
We have every confidence in the board. It is a really strong board and we are moving as fast as we can to fill those three vacancies that the chairman mentioned. We are appointing a very strong CEO and he will be given every support by the Department to get the job done within IFI. We need an organisation with the role that IFI has but we need to update the 1959 Act, which essentially is what a lot of this work is based on. The focus of that Act is largely around illegal fishing. It does not reflect the pressures that have been mentioned on our rivers around pollution, climate change, nature-based solutions needed along the waterways and so on. We had been working on consolidating legislation, and then of course the same people who were dealing with the legislation were also dealing with all the corporate governance issues. One of the reasons for the split of corporate governance out away from the policy areas is to allow the policy team focus back on the policy. The Minister is now minded to do a shorter piece of legislation first, which will address those fines and the enforcement powers and bring them into the modern era. Then we will go back to the consolidated legislation and really do an overhaul of it. Maybe, but it would be a Government decision, in the context of that, it might be decided that, for example, alignment is needed with other agencies that have responsibilities in the river area. That would be, I think, part of a broader reform. We are going to do the fines and enforcement first.
Joanna Byrne (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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And keep an eye on good governance while we are at it.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I thank the witnesses and the Comptroller and Auditor General. The opening statement from IFI states: "Former Minister Eamon Ryan did not at any time commission a report into the matter of the uninsured vehicle – contrary to a number of assertions by a member." For the record, I am presuming that I am the member. The statement continues: "These inaccuracies contributed to many occasions at that hearing where interactions between the IFI delegation and the Committee were at cross-purposes and cast a very negative pall on the proceedings." The cross-purposes, Mr. Collins, was that your senior management team did not inform the committee that in February 2025, they knew and they discussed the report that former Minister Eamon Ryan sent to the board of IFI. They were the inaccuracies, not mine. They were the inaccuracies. It is as simple as that. I would appreciate if you corrected the record on that. You have come in here and you have split hairs in relation to the inaccuracies at that committee. You did not once say that the inaccuracies of the committee were that your senior management team did not disclose when I asked or when Deputy Geoghegan asked about this report.
Professor Tom Collins:
If I can respond to that, Deputy, I have no wish for recriminations of any sort in this meeting. I looked at that meeting as it unfolded from the comfort of my sitting room. There was a question raised about a review commissioned by the then Minister Eamon Ryan. I had been all over the review that you mention. It had come in front of the board. I had written a detailed response to it, but I did not actually realise until well into the meeting what review you were referring to. Now, I think that is fair on both sides because----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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I think that is completely unfair.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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One investigation was sent to you by the Department in February 2025. I asked that question. What other investigation could I be speaking about?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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There was not, though.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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But there was not.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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There was one, so there could not have been multiple. You said there could.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Just for clarification, were there other investigations that you were dealing with at that time?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The RSM investigation, because I referenced RSM.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Only one of those was conducted by RSM.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Was one shared in February 2025?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That was based off a protected disclosure made in relation to the uninsured vehicles.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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So why did it say here that the former Minister Eamon Ryan did not at any time commission a report into the matter of the uninsured vehicles?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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But we are splitting hairs there.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That is completely and utterly spitting hairs. The Department sent you an investigation. Why did Mr. Fox and Ms Campion not disclose to me at that time, or to Deputy Geoghegan, that that was the report? They were present at the audit and risk committee, ARC, meeting on 24 February and they were present at the board meeting on 26 February but they failed disclose at the committee, until the very end to be fair to Ms Campion, that that was the investigation.
Mr. Barry Fox:
I will take that question. The reality is that there was a lot of confusion around this discussion at the last attendance. The RSM report was never mentioned throughout that meeting. It was never referenced. The other point to make is that on five occasions the Minister's report was referred to. On nine occasions the Deputy actually talked about a second summons and he asked me about a report into it. That is exactly what it says in the transcript. The last issue was relating that the CEO had actually admitted that he knew about the issue of the uninsured vehicles on the day of the accident. That completely confused us on that day.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Did Mr. Fox fail to tell the committee that the RSM investigation was brought to his attention at the ARC meeting and the board committee meeting?
Mr. Barry Fox:
No. I was focused in on the Minister's report because, as the Deputy will remember, the meeting was quite intense and it was quite heated at times, or that is what we felt. My focus was on trying to remember what a Minister's report was. In fact, the Deputy may recall that I asked my colleague on the day did she know anything about a Minister's report. It was confusion-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Is this the same colleague that actually did an investigation into it?
Mr. Barry Fox:
Deputy Geoghegan asked every witness from IFI if they were aware of that report. As we now know, one of the people who was in the room had actually done a freedom of information request, FOI, relating to the RSM report, and they did not understand what we were talking about. There was a lot of confusion. I apologise for that confusion but certainly it was not intentionally done.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That confusion beggars belief. It was discussed at the meeting by the board and by the ARC in February 2025. Anyone within the room with any sort of knowledge of what went on in the board meetings would have known exactly the investigation that I was speaking of. Ms Campion, you carried out a report on behalf of the board or the ARC, I am not sure which one it was, into this report and you failed to acknowledge it.
Ms Suzanne Campion:
What I can say is that there were three of us here at that meeting and none of the three of us knew what ministerial report the Deputy was talking about. I can say also that there are reports generated by Ministers that are commissioned by Ministers and this was not one of them-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Hang on a second, you said there were three of you here that day and you did not know-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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You said at the end of the PAC meeting to the Chair that you exactly knew what was happening.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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So you did know at that meeting.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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That was two separate conversations. The first conversation was in relation to the investigation, which Ms Buckley has now said that she commissioned, through her Minister, Eamon Ryan, at that stage. I presume that the then Minister, Eamon Ryan, was well aware of the investigation.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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A Minister would not be kept informed of an external investigation that was commissioned by his Department?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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So now the Department is now becoming the complainant in this.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Which criminal matter are you referring to?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Presumably you are putting yourself down as the complainant-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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-----if the Department fully believes that, knowingly, IFI produced false documentation to An Garda Síochána in relation to an uninsured vehicle.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
On the balance of probabilities, the investigative report found that this was done. Although, having read through all the documentation myself, I can see why, for example, the chairperson himself does not believe so. I think there is a very arguable case. However, in an excess of prudence, perhaps, and having taken legal advice, we decided as a Department that we would like the appropriate authorities, which in this case is An Garda Síochána, to come to a conclusion themselves.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The legal advice of the Department is basically saying that because of this investigation, it believes that the IFI knowingly gave false documentation to the person who gave the protected disclosure to the Department in relation to the uninsured vehicle-----
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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The Department probably would not take the case, or become a claimant in a case with An Garda Síochána, if it did not truly believe that what went on is a matter for An Garda Síochána.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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How many cases is the IFI currently involved in at the WRC?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Are they all staff members?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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So there are nine currently. How many does the IFI expect?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Legacy cases. How many does the IFI expect to happen or continue? Are these nine the only ones that the IFI expects to happen now?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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So the €205,000 that has already been spent on the uninsured vehicles more than likely will probably go up based off one of those WRC cases.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Do we have an estimated cost of how much will be added to the €205,000 cost that will be incurred at the WRC? Currently, €205,000 of taxpayers' money has gone on the uninsured vehicle issue. How much more will this cost the State?
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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We could be looking at a quarter of a million euro.
Eoghan Kenny (Cork North-Central, Labour)
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Perhaps it would be.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank the witnesses for being here and the members of IFI for coming back to us again this morning. Just a couple of points of clarification first. Have any members received training in preparation for this morning's appearance at the committee? If so, who provided it?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay, and how much did it cost?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I assume a price was procured beforehand.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Was it one day of training?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How many days?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Five?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So a week's worth of training.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Who gave that advice?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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So the Chair's advice was taken?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I felt the previous training had been ineffectual.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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For the previous attendance there was no training. Is that correct?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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There was training paid for before the last attendance?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Over the course of those five days, what did the training focus on? Who was involved in it? Were the board members involved? Who participated and what were the modules of the training?
Mr. Barry Fox:
The modules of the training were very clear. It was to answer open and honestly to the committee, to think about our answers before we answered to ensure that we gave the correct information and to think about and ensure we could find the information under pressure. That was it. It was to test us to make sure that when we came in here the next time we would be in no doubt when we were answering questions and that we would be open, accurate and frank.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I would appreciate if Mr. Fox could follow up with me on the costs associated with this training. Is Ms Campion aware which budget line that would come out of?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Did Professor Collins participate in the training?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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How much of it?
Professor Tom Collins:
It was not days but more in terms of hours, probably six or seven. I would contextualise this against the background of the last meeting that we discussed at the outset. For whatever reason - and I am not going back into it - that was not a positive outcome for IFI. We would make absolutely sure as a board that the next time we would try to ensure that any mistakes that may have been made would not be made again.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In the training were the witnesses advised about the making of opening statements?
Professor Tom Collins:
No, not in any detail but in a general sense of course we take as much advice as we can. I am struck by the question. If I go in to play a game I am expected to have trained for it. If I go into an environment of teaching in a classroom - which I have done a lot of - I would expect that student teachers have gone through the training for it. I do the same.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If Professor Collins reads back the transcript he will see that I have cast no aspersions or made no judgments. I have simply asked questions, which is what I am meant to do.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Yes, but Professor Collins is struck by the line of questioning. While he has rejected Deputy Joanna Byrne's comments that it was not of an accusatory nature, in his opening statement Professor Collins said there was misdirection by members at the previous meeting of the Committee of Public Accounts. What would Professor Collins define as a misdirection?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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With the greatest respect, that is now twice Professor Collins has questioned my questions-----
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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If he could just answer the question.
Professor Tom Collins:
If I am asked a question concerning a report which is named definitively as being of one name and the report has a different name then I consider that a misdirection. It is inaccurate but I am not attributing any motivation to it. I am simply saying it was a misdirection. If I am driving down the road and I read a sign indicating that the local town is to my left but the town is to my right, that is a misdirection.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Okay. When did concerns about the IFI first come to light to the Department?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
A very good question. The protected disclosures started coming in at the beginning of 2022. There was an incident involving dormant accounts funding in 2021 that came to light as part of the accounts, but in the greater scheme of things that did not appear to be as significant and, on reflection, perhaps it should have been. I would say the flood of protected disclosures started in February 2022.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Hindsight is a great thing. Should the Department have done more sooner with regard to IFI?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
I should point out that this predates me so I am speaking from records and memory. The Department actually did act extremely swiftly by the standards of this. From February to April, the Department had already written a number of letters and was commissioning reports. Without necessarily linking the two things, the Department wrote an extremely serious and trenchant letter to the chair of the board on 27 April and the chair resigned the following day. A very significant amount of effort was put into investigating the events surrounding this because, as the Deputy says, these really serious protected disclosures were arriving. The Department has an oversight role and it has a governance role. It is not in the weeds; it cannot be running the place. Also, there is a board there for a reason. The Department acted to see whether the board could address these things and I would say it did so quite fast. Within a year of the first disclosure arriving, the Minister had acted on a no-fault basis to in fact remove the entire board, replace it with the section 18 appointees, and then move to appoint a brand new board to address all of that. A senior counsel was hired to do a report into the activities of the board and it arrived in the summer. When the section 18 appointments were made, the Department then required the EY report to be procured by the IFI and has worked very strongly and closely with the board to ensure that those EY results are implemented. On this one I think the Department has quite a good story to tell.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Following the meeting in December did the Minister or the Department consider seconding staff directly to IFI to allocate resources and give a bit of added attention to the organisation?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
We certainly did not consider seconding staff from my Department. We did have some discussions with the Minister as to whether we would appoint a temporary CEO. However, at that point the CEO process was so far advanced we felt that our efforts were best spent just trying to get to the end of that result.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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In his opening statement Professor Collins was at pains to make a point about protected disclosures. "There are no limits to what people can do", are the words I think he used. From this I inferred that of the 38 disclosures, people could have made multiple disclosures. Is there a rationale for saying that? Could that have been 38 individual disclosures or why would Professor Collins make a statement like that?
Professor Tom Collins:
By definition, I do not know until I get a report. Even with the report in the board, I will not always know where a protected disclosure arises from, so I just do not know. The rationale is purely based on the possibility that one person could make and can make multiple protected disclosures, particularly if they are anonymous. For instance, of the protected disclosures we got between 2022 and 2025, as I mentioned earlier, 29 of the 38 are anonymous. I really do not know. It is a possibility but I cannot speculate on it.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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To clarify, who made the determination on the thresholds for consideration of all the protected disclosures?
Professor Tom Collins:
As a board, we are obliged under the Act to designate a person to manage protected disclosures. We have such a person designated within IFI. Last July, because of the numbers coming in, but also to open up the process and make it easier for people, we created an online portal through which protected disclosures could be made to us. The portal is managed by an external agency, namely PwC, which will do an initial assessment as to whether a disclosure meets the threshold. Sometimes, it might say it is a matter for HR. If it is a named or signed protected disclosure, we will, at that point, write back and say that. Submissions may be advanced to be managed under the protected disclosure processes within the organisation if they reach a particular threshold.
As I mentioned, we currently have three protected disclosures under investigation. We have had two that were partly upheld and one upheld. That is the up-to-date picture.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank Professor Collins.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Department officials and everyone from IFI who is here today. It has been well aired and discussed over the past few weeks and months that we, as members of the committee, found the first meeting with IFI very frustrating. In fairness, I thank the witnesses for their continued engagement with the committee and for working to respond to a lot of the questions we put to them in writing.
I have three issues to raise today. The first concerns section 6.3.1 of the C and AG's report. At our meeting of 4 December 2025, I pursued a very specific line of questioning in respect of that section, outlining my perception that there was an over-claim or some wrongdoing in terms of mileage claims by an individual. At the end of that discussion, Ms Campion agreed to review the matter to ensure that there was full clarity as to what was the actual story. I was incredibly frustrated by that issue on the day. It is important to note that, since then, the C and AG has issued a clarification regarding the title of that section of the report. I have withdrawn my remarks from 4 December. However, a commitment was given to review the matter. What did that review find?
Ms Suzanne Campion:
Our review was conducted immediately after the meeting. It was passed to the C and AG's office, and Mr. McCarthy offered the clarification thereafter. We are completely in agreement with him that these were unnecessary, not irregular, expenses and that they were property constituted, signed off, approved and paid by Inland Fisheries Ireland. However, our review did point to inadequate controls within IFI.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I want to make sure I have this correct. Will Ms Campion confirm clearly for the committee that the individual in question did not breach any IFI policy rules or procedures in submitting those mileage claims?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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To clarify, is it correct that the individual abided by the policies?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It is really important to clarify that. When I started my line of questioning on 4 December, I was of the opinion that this was a massive breach of the policies, but, obviously, that is not the case. However, this issue has highlighted, as the C and AG has said, that there was maybe a systems failure within IFI that should not have arisen.
I have another question on this point. When the IFI representatives received the C and AG's initial report - and they were in possession of it for five months or so before the previous meeting - did they ever raise any questions about that section or did they accept it as it was?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I understand. It is really important to clarify this. Ms Campion was involved in the organisation during the period in which those mileage claims were submitted.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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This happened in the normal course of business.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I wanted to clarify that matter. I appreciate the response on it, and I appreciate the C and AG's clarification. There was confusion on my part in the context of the line of questioning I pursued. I want to make sure I get it clear today for the record that the individual in question did not over-claim, as I said was the case. The answers I received that day allowed me to pursue that line of questioning and I stayed going down that line. I just wanted to make sure the facts of the matter are abundantly clear today for IFI and its staff.
The second issue I raise is to do with the payments to the former CEO. Did IFI seek approval from the Department for those payments? Did it receive approval?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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If the former CEO's employment ceased in June 2025, why was he paid until the end of November 2025?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious of that. I am aware the matter is before the WRC. To clarify, was legal advice given to IFI to continue paying the CEO up until November?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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When did the contract end?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Was his contract due to end in November?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That is clear. Do IFI and the Department agree that this arrangement was a termination or severance payment, with payment made as part of an arrangement to end the individual's employment with IFI? Do the Department officials have an opinion on that?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
As far as we were concerned - we looked at this very carefully and, as Professor Collins says, IFI kept us informed - this did not form a severance payment per se. If it were to be a severance payment, it would, under Circular 09/2018, have required the sanction of both the parent Department and the Department of public expenditure and reform. Having looked at the matter, we felt it was within the board's rights to determine it could make this payment in the circumstances and that it was not, strictly speaking, a severance payment.
Again, I cannot go into the details, but I can, having been involved in these circumstances in the context of both matters relating to severance and my position with the parent Department, speak in generalities. The circular expresses that in very limited circumstances, a severance payment can be agreed by way of legal agreement between a public servant and his or her parent Department. This normally arises where the relationship has broken down for some reason. In my experience, the Department of public expenditure applies a very strict set of rules around severance. As it happens, those rules were actually negotiated by me when I was in a previous role in that Department. They are known as the HSE terms and they include strict rules about what is permitted in terms of severance based on length of service and the quantum of weeks relative to that. In my experience, they do not allow, for example, for there to be any enhancement of pension or anything like that. A very strong business case must be made for that to take place and the terms of agreement of the severance have to be sent to, and approved by, both Departments. In my experience, it is often the case that they may recommend changes, particularly around transparency.
In this instance, as far as we were concerned, we were kept informed of what was going on, it was within the rights of IFI to make this payment and it did not count as severance.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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So the Department did not sanction the former CEO being paid for those five months. Was that an executive decision of IFI-----
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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-----or a board decision of IFI?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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It was a board decision of IFI to pay the individual out to the end of contract-----
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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-----plus any other entitlements. Okay.
The last topic I want to deal with is particularly around the IFI credit cards. There is one aspect I found interesting about it. In 2020, IFI had made 53 credit cards available to its staff to use and there was a combined spend of over €148,000 on those cards. By the end of 2024, IFI had reduced the number of cards in operation to 17. How many cards are in operation right now?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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What was the rationale for the number of credit cards that was in use, and primarily what were they used to spend on?
Ms Suzanne Campion:
Fadó, fadó, there were imprest accounts given to a lot of staff who were on field work. It was proving incredibly difficult to get the claims back on imprest accounts so credit cards replaced imprest accounts. They were gradually reduced. The main thing to say is that pretty much everything that goes through a credit card is through the normal procurement procedure. If you need quotes for a purchase, you still need them if you are doing it by credit.
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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My next question would have been whether there were levels of spending on these credit cards that warranted procurement.
The only concern I have is that there were 53 credit cards in 2020 with a €148,000 spend and when the number of credit cards reduced all the way down to 17 in 2024, there was still over €100,000 spent on them. That indicates that the concentration of spend on those 17 cards was much higher. On what basis are the three cards remaining used for today?
Albert Dolan (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank everybody for coming in today. My first line of questioning will be in relation to fines and whenever IFI fines somebody. In his opening remarks today, Professor Collins stated that prosecutions can result in penalties of up to €5,000 to somebody in relation to an offence and that there is a recommendation to increase that to 3% of annual turnover. What mechanism would IFI use to do that? Is there IFI legislation already in place to do that or how would it do that?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When did that recommendation come?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does IFI have the legislation and the powers to increase fines above €5,000? Is that in situ at present? Does IFI have that in place?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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IFI does not have that legislation in place at present.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does IFI have the legislation in place?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Did IFI run public events in relation to modernising its legislation in 2013?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Mr. Fox does not know. Okay.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How long has it been?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
The legislation dates from 1959, so I would say some considerable period of time. We have been working on consolidating the legislation, albeit it has never reached the top of the pile, if I could put it that way. However, the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, is clear now, particularly on foot of the Blackwater and the report we got from the European Commission. The Minister of State wants us to advance as quickly as possible the enhanced fines legislation. Now we have managed to restructure the Department so corporate governance has gone elsewhere. The team that are now responsible for inland fisheries policy will be in a position to start moving forward on that.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has the Department that listed in the legislative agenda?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What year was that placed on the agenda?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The end of last year.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. So it is on the programme for this year. Which month is that coming up on?
Ms Martina Hennessy:
We are hoping that the heads of Bill will go to Government for approval as part of the summer programme, so in the coming months. There is a meeting with the Attorney General's office today just to firm up around that. Then we would look to progress the legislation over the latter part of the year.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine.
We need IFI. From talking to different people over the past few weeks, I realise that IFI is a necessity. Given everything that went on previously, it worries me but IFI has given a clear outline today to my colleague, Deputy Joanna Byrne, that moving forward it will be a different story.
I want to ask in relation to Fáilte Ireland. Does IFI have a relationship with Fáilte Ireland and the need to increase angling and the tourism industry in Ireland? Is there a relationship there or how does that work?
Mr. Barry Fox:
Yes. We would engage regularly with Fáilte Ireland. When we are doing international events, we would liaise with it on stands and stuff like that.
A lot of the development of our domestic recreational angling - bringing new entrants into the sport, etc. - is something we do ourselves. We have just recently established a new unit in IFI which is going to drive that throughout the country.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has IFI a plan and a strategy for that?
Mr. Barry Fox:
The person was appointed late last year. They are working on that strategy at the moment and how that is going to be rolled out. It is going to consist of angling and education in schools, which we do currently, but a kind of a more ambitious plan, and then the development of opportunities to partake in recreational angling and working with our stakeholders to drive that.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Have we deadlines and numbers? Does IFI know what it is doing over the next few years? Has it a deadline?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has IFI key performance indicators?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I have been told that angling could create a lot of tourism within the whole country, given the fantastic assets that we have that IFI is in charge of. I want to ensure that would happen.
Mr. Fox mentioned the angling facilities that are available at present. Has IFI increased them over the period? Has there been increased fishing or angling resources put in place?
Mr. Barry Fox:
We would work a lot with stakeholder groupings around the country in developing angling and developing angling opportunities. We have a lot of infrastructure that we maintain on an annual basis and that would increase, depending on what happens year on year. The Deputy will be aware that a lot of these infrastructure pieces get damaged from time to time so our staff go in and ensure that they are in good upkeep.
Certainly, in regard to the angling product itself, we are focusing on natural fisheries - wild brown trout, wild salmon, course fisheries and pike fisheries. We will be working consistently to try to develop those to increase productivity.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many development staff has IFI got?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has that increased or decreased in the past ten years?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In 2021, Inland Fisheries Ireland opted not to reapply for the Dormant Accounts Fund and for the education outreach programme. By all accounts, it was a great programme. It was built upon the Dublin angling initiative and engaged with groups, such as the Irish Wheelchair Association, Traveller community groups, Acquired Brain Injury Ireland and the Garda youth division. That engagement with the Dublin angling initiative has continued. Would Mr. Fox be able to provide an overview or contrast of the education and outreach programmes for 2020 to 2025? Does IFI still have outreach programmes? Can we get a view of the levels of activity in regard to these?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is good.
Mr. Barry Fox:
-----and is very successful. It ran a very successful event last weekend in Dublin. There were approximately 130 attendees at the Dodder river. The initiative is very well received in that regard. It does a lot of school visits and touch tanks and different kinds of education pieces around our native fish species. Our regional staff then go into schools and do our Something Fishy programme. That is outside the dormant accounts funding, but is something that we actively do every year.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Has there been an increase or decrease in the education outreach programme?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Fox. Speaking to anglers, I have been told that by-laws 806 and 809 are counterproductive in terms of Lough Corrib. They are providing blanket legal protection to coarse fish across the State. They, in effect, provide legal protection to an invasive species in that lough. At a meeting of the board of Inland Fisheries Ireland in February 2024, there was reference to a pubic consultation on that issue. I would like an update on the status of that. Was there a public consultation?
Mr. Barry Fox:
Yes, there was a public consultation. We consulted on the amendment of both by-laws. As the Deputy might appreciate, it is quite a complex area, with competing priorities, as I am sure some of the committee members are aware. Lough Corrib is probably the premier trout fishery in Europe, truth be told. It is an exceptional water body. Lough Sheelin would be similar. Work is ongoing to assess those consultations. There was significant interest. We are going to be drafting a plan soon, in the next couple of months.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That meeting was in February 2024, so nothing has happened-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What deadline or timeline is IFI giving them?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Mr. Fox for answering my questions.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for being with us. I am one of the last speakers, but I will try to ask some relevant questions. I will go back to the opening remarks by Professor Collins and the protected disclosures. I think the total was 38 to date. Is that correct?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was over that period. Okay. In trying to extrapolate from that what the culture of the organisation might be, Professor Collins made the point that the disclosures do not all come from different sources. Can he elaborate? How any sources are we talking about? For those 38 disclosures, how many sources were involved?
Professor Tom Collins:
I honestly do not know. I cannot know. As I mentioned, 29 of them are anonymous. I do not know how many different people would have sent one in. As I mentioned in the opening statement, anyone could submit multiple disclosures. I do not know, truthfully, and we have no way of knowing.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is no way of knowing. Is the Department able to clarify the issue of how many different people made disclosures? Could one person have submitted all 39?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can we say if that is the case?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Multiple people.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I just want to get a sense of whether this is one person with a particular agenda or if there are multiple sources.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are multiple sources, okay.
Mr. Gary Martin:
To clarify, the Department has received 27 disclosures in relation to IFI. That is separate from the numbers that IFI has received directly. There may be some overlap in the allegations made. We have had nine anonymous disclosures among those 27, so approximately one third. The ones that come from named persons come from multiple people.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Let us clarify the overall number. The Department has 27 disclosures.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Thirty-eight and 27 need to be added.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is a total of 65 protected disclosures.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Have we any sense of how many have been determined? How many have gone through the system?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is that to say that the others are concluded?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
Yes. They were either determined not to merit investigation, so did not meet the standard of protected disclosure or come from the right sort of person, or they have been investigated and the investigation is complete, and any recommendations from them have been communicated as necessary.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Buckley. I will go back to the issue of the chief executive and the payments at the end of his tenure. Professor Collins mentioned various types of leave. I know he was cautious in what he said, due to the ongoing issues, but it is fair to say that he said there were a number of different categories of leave involved in that 15-month period.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was also said, in terms of the severance payments and the overall concluding payments, that 75 days of annual leave were included.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was 78 days, so over 15 weeks' annual leave was paid as part of the final package. Is that to say that the 15 months' leave included no annual leave?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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The individual was not working for 15 months. None of the period included annual leave.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, I know it was paid leave but it did not include-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There were different types of leave involved but none of it included annual leave.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Somebody was out of the organisation for 15 months on various different types of leave, which had been approved when going from one type of leave to the other. At any point was it suggested that annual leave might be taken when there was an accumulation of 15 weeks?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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How much annual leave did that position hold per annum?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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There was an accumulation of 78 days at the end. I am making a point. If someone was out for 15 months, it might have been suggested that some of that annual leave would be used as part of the process.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was not, so we decided to pay for 15 weeks of additional salary.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I understand that. Annual leave is accumulated. However, there were different types of leave involved-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----in this case.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will turn to the delegated authority issue. The Comptroller and Auditor General has highlighted that €277,000 was accounted for in the 2024 accounts as relating to abandoned cases and legal costs. Is there more to come in legal costs?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is okay. It was over that period. How many cases are involved in that €277,000?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Are a further five unresolved?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Will there be additional legal costs involved for them?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Would that be costs from the IFI side and from the defendant's side?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I will move on to a separate issue. It has been highlighted in the 2024 accounts that €205,000 was spent to date on the collision that took place in 2021. Is that the totality or is there more to come on that?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. I understand there is a WRC process. Could Mr. Fox give us a breakdown of the €205,000? What exactly was that payment for?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Insofar as she can.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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If I can, I might just turn to the Blackwater while Ms Campion is looking for the information. Professor Collins mentioned the Blackwater and the catastrophe that happened there last year. He also mentioned the independent review that the Minister asked to be carried out. He used the phrase that "by and large" it endorsed the IFI's role in that. By and large is not 100%. What elements of the IFI's role did the report identify where potential improvements could be made?
Professor Tom Collins:
I suppose there were two in terms of the response and perhaps a number in terms of preventing it again. In terms of the response, there was the absence of an interagency crisis management protocol. It alluded very strongly to that. Even from my position, during the Blackwater fish kill period I went to Mallow to the meeting which the Minister had convened and I heard the dismay in the locality about this catastrophe. The JRC report pointed to a need which we had already identified, namely, that there needs to be an interagency protocol and different roles for different players. In that protocol there is a need for a lead agency. There are questions such as whether the lead agency can dictate when testing will happen. Can it dictate that laboratories that might be available to one agency would now be devoted to this? That is the kind of-----
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not mean to be rude but I am caught for time. In terms of the IFI's ability to get to the root cause of the pollution source, will the changes recommended improve its ability to do that in the future?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is the biggest issue for the public, first, that such a catastrophe can happen and, second, that no source is identified in terms of the cause of it.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, but is Professor Collins saying the IFI is better equipped as a result of the measures taken?
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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But the IFI is not there yet.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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How long will the process take to be better equipped?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
If I could make an intervention, that recommendation is directed at the Department. The Department has to designate a responsible body to do that and then resource it do it. That is going to take time to work through as there are a lot of potential stakeholders involved and lots of bodies that have responsibilities in this area. That is a job we will be working through this year.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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This year. Okay. Perhaps I might get an answer on the breakdown of the €205,000.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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Okay. I thank Ms Campion.
Séamus McGrath (Cork South-Central, Fianna Fail)
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So the totality there was €229,000.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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To be honest I was struck by the opening statement from Ms Buckley. She stated:
As is the case with all aegis bodies, it important that the organisation operates to the highest standards of governance, accountability and transparency. The Department takes its responsibilities_
What does she think of that statement in terms of whether the entity has operated to the standards which she would have thought they should have in the past 15 years?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
As my statement also makes clear, we do not think so. The Department took action in the period from 2022, to the point of replacing the board and asking it to make very severe changes to the governance of the organisation. Our concerns became really clear in early 2022 and the Department acted thereafter to try and secure the IFI and to bring it to a place where we can say it meets those standards. One of the most important acts we did was to put in the chair and the board and task them very particularly, as the Minister has done also, to lead the governance reforms that are needed at a central level.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Ms Buckley has spoken about people being replaced but there are probably a lot of people who still remain in the operation. We cannot force people to leave. How does she believe the mix of cultures will be able to operate? When does she think it will be effective in cleaning up what has happened, for the want of a better term, to ensure it does not happen again?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
As always happens when you have got a corporate governance issue in an organisation, the vast majority of people in the organisation are just doing their day job and they are doing it well. They are out in rivers. We have heard all of that from the chair.
The problems that have arisen here seem to have been, largely, within the central organisation of the body. There has been a litany of issues around that. I have confidence in the board to lead and I have confidence in the incoming chief executive, whom I know personally – it is a very strong incoming person – to lead this organisation. Between the board and the new chief executive, and with careful oversight by the Department – we have an oversight role, we cannot do the job for them – we will equip them with the tools they need to get this job done.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I know the board is not going to be as hands-on, due to its very nature. I understand that, as I have worked as a board member on different entities. Given my finance background, when I have operated in companies where there is a board, it is always that bit to one side. I always feel sympathy for a board answering for the day-to-day operations because ultimately the members are typically not involved in the day-to-day events and they could not be expected to be, yet often in a situation like this one they are called upon to answer questions although they have not been involved in the day-to-day decision-making. Ultimately, the board operates at a remove.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What is the full length of time?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is over two years without a CEO.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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How long has Mr. Fox been there?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I suppose Mr. Fox has seen a lot of turmoil during that period. What are his thoughts on it? Was what he walked into what he expected?
Mr. Barry Fox:
I started my career in the regional boards, which was the previous inland fisheries structure. The organisation on the ground has been doing an excellent job, and it was when I came into the organisation. There were certainly issues. There is no doubt about that, but with the section 18s being appointed and the new board and the support they have given to the staff and the executive, things have progressed quite well.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Would Mr. Fox say it was a failure at the top then, rather than across the board that got us into this situation?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I am just asking Mr. Fox for his opinion.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is fine. I just asked. That is okay.
There are so many financial areas. As someone who comes from a financial background myself, as an ex-auditor, it is all jumping out at me. Take the number of credit cards. I never let out credit cards when I was working at any company because credit cards are ripe for people to use when they should not. They are impossible to follow or track. There was a situation where it went from 53 credit cards to 17 to three. Is that correct? That makes sense. I do not know how there were 53 in the first place.
Who is responsible for insuring vehicles?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Are all the vehicles insured at different times?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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They all come up together?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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How did it happen that one of the vehicles was uninsured? Or were they all uninsured?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Was the whole fleet uninsured?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That is what I am asking.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It was 15 vehicles in total and they were just missed. Okay. I just was not sure. For how long were they uninsured?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Okay. What was the date again - 15 August?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It came to light when the accident occurred.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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How many vehicles does IFI have?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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How many staff does IFI have?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I thought I saw a number where there was use of up to 400 vehicles. Is that correct?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Were there any vehicles that IFI was in ownership of or paying leases on that it was not using on a day-to-day basis?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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That could not happen, no?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Even on a day-to-day basis they might be sitting in a shed for a couple of weeks.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Can Ms Campion tell me about the bounty system for salmon. That is confusing me. Were there payments into bank accounts, payments to staff and payments to third parties? What was the situation there?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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When did it finish?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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In the accounts, the period we are covering is 2024.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Can Ms Campion clarify what was happening there in 2024?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What is a bounty for a tag? How does that work in layman's terms?
Mr. Barry Fox:
For context, the Marine Institute operated a bounty scheme for returned coated-wire tags, which is a microscopic tag that is inserted in the head of a juvenile salmon. The juvenile salmon then migrates out to sea. When they return as adults the tag is recovered and it gives an estimation of marine survival. This programme was going on for 47 years. There was a public bounty scheme where any angler or person who recovered one of these tags could make a claim to the Marine Institute for the bounty. The bounty was €10.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Where did the staff come into it?
Mr. Barry Fox:
On foot of a protected disclosure, IFI undertook an investigation into this. I can speak to the detail of the investigation because it is now closed. We determined the disclosure was upheld and that persons within the organisation had received payments but we could find no evidence of wrongdoing.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, yes. I know. It was just in the course of their job.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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By how much did any individual employee benefit?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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So we know roughly, is it a couple of hundred euro or what is the amount?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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So it received it itself.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Who was paying it?
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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The Marine Institute was paying IFI and then that stopped.
Joe Neville (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Thank you.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Following our last engagement in December, did the Minister write to Professor Collins on foot of that engagement? What was the thrust of the Minister's correspondence?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Did he express concern with the information or lack of information provided at the meeting?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You might furnish the committee with a copy of that letter, Professor Collins.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Did you bring that letter to the attention of the board on its receipt?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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When did you inform the board?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Concern was expressed that members of the board only found out about this letter from the Minister through the media and that was the first it was brought to their attention. Would that be accurate?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It was reported in the media and certain board members only found out about this letter subsequent to that media coverage.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You are not aware of that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is news to you?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. You might furnish the committee with a copy of the letter. I will go to the payment to the former CEO. At our previous engagement, I asked Mr. Fox about the decision to cut pay from full to half and then have it restored. He said he was not aware of it. He said it was a decision taken by the board. You said earlier, Professor Collins, that this was a legal strategy or based on legal advice. Legal advice was given to cut it from full pay down to half pay. Is that correct?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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IFI was given legal advice to go from full pay down to half pay.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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IFI considered its policy. There was no legal advice.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Why was the decision then taken to restore it to full pay?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was that based on legal advice?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was the wrong legal advice given in the first instance to reduce it down to half pay?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You made reference that agreement had been sought with the former CEO to come to some sort of severance agreement. When did that take place?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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At what stage could agreement not be obtained?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The decision was then taken in June shortly thereafter-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Who was aware of that process of trying to come to an agreement?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was the board aware of the content of what was being discussed-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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-----in all terms of that agreement.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was there anyone else? I am sure the deputy CEO was fully across it.
Professor Tom Collins:
No. The deputy CEO was not nor the head of finance, as we said earlier. Two staff members attended those special meetings, with respect to the confidentiality of the employee who was then the CEO. The two staff members included the head of HR who has since left the organisation.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You and the board were fully across every detail within that agreement.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In December, I asked Mr. Fox if he knew anything in relation allegations of blackmail. He said he had no knowledge of any allegations of blackmail. Do you still stand over that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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So you gave incorrect information in December that he was not aware of an allegation of blackmail.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was Professor Collins aware of an allegation of blackmail?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It has been reported that the former CEO was allegedly being blackmailed to stop a fraud investigation he had initiated. It has been cited publicly that that was by a serving Senator. There are also serious allegations with regard to a former Taoiseach that he had put pressure on. Are you aware of those allegations, Professor Collins?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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So you only became aware of those at the WRC.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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So you only became aware back in January at the WRC.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Were these issues raised through protected disclosures? Were any protected disclosures made to IFI citing concerns around these issues of political interference or allegations of blackmail?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There were no protected disclosures.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Were protected disclosures of that nature made and received by the person dedicated to dealing with protected disclosures on the board?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Were protected disclosures made to the Department highlighting these serious allegations?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You have some live protected disclosures. From that, I can take that these possible protected disclosures that were made are still live.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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To go back to the agreement that had been sought with the former CEO, you said, Professor Collins, you were fully aware and briefed on the legal strategy to come to an agreement with the former CEO. At any stage was the former CEO asked to withdraw protected disclosures he had made?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was a condition attached at any stage as part of a proposed settlement agreement or severance agreement that protected disclosures would be withdrawn?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I ask you to think that through. Give it the time, as your PR people said. Take the time and think it through thoroughly. Was a condition attached in the proposed severance agreement put to the former CEO that he would withdraw protected disclosures?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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If I read from a document I have seen, a condition had been proposed that the employee confirms that he knows of no facts which give rise to a protected disclosure in relation to the employer or to any current or former employee, officer or director of the employer in relation to the Department and that any protected disclosures raised by him in relation to such parties are hereby discharged.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is factual, what I read from there.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I find it deeply concerning that in a settlement arrangement being put, IFI had as a condition that protected disclosures would be withdrawn.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, he would withdraw protected disclosures.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was the Department aware of the content of what was being proposed or had been put to the former CEO?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
I will try to be more helpful on this occasion but I must start by again stating that, unfortunately, there are live protected disclosures being investigated by the Department so I cannot speak to detail. However, I can speak more generally.
As I explained to the Chair's colleague, the Department operates under a set of rules if a severance arrangement is to be sanctioned. One thing that would need to be done is for the mediated agreement to be sanctioned in all its terms. We review the legality of the sanctioning of the agreement put before us and one of the things we look to is to make sure it is in breach of no law or that no rights are waived that cannot be waived. It is those aspects we look to. We would not be in a position to sign off on a document that, for example, was in breach of the protected disclosure legislation. We would address that in our communications with anyone.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Did the Department sign off on the proposed severance agreement we are discussing here?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That included the former CEO withdrawing a number of protected disclosures.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
As I have said, I cannot go into the detail of this but we approved what we understand to be the final version to be put to the CEO, which he ultimately did not accept. That was sanctioned, not just by us, but by the Department of public expenditure and reform and it would have included legal review. It would not have included anything that did not pass muster from a legal perspective.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I find it deeply concerning. Was a rationale given as to why that proposal was not accepted? Professor Collins?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was it on the basis that they were not prepared to withdraw protected disclosures? Had that been given as rationale?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You never heard that. That was not communicated back through your legal people to you, who had said your fingerprints were right across this process.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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You were informed thoroughly and kept up to date and you had detail of this. Did your legal team come back to you to give a rationale as to why this agreement was not being accepted? I again ask you to think that through thoroughly.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I will conclude on this and will try to come back in on the second round of supplementary questions. I find it deeply concerning and uncomfortable that the withdrawal of protected disclosures would be included as part of a settlement proposal. I would question that and seek information from the Department about the legal process because I question the legality of including the withdrawal of protected disclosures in an agreement, given the seriousness of the allegations, as I see them, that were contained in those protected disclosures.
Is it agreed with the witnesses that we open up a shorter round of supplementary questions? It is agreed.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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With regard to the settlement agreement, as a standard in any employment matter, it was to be in full and final settlement, and that was the position. It is common practice in employment matters that a settlement offer is based on it being in full and final settlement of all claims, except for those which cannot be contracted out of. I ask the Secretary General to confirm that IFI, the Department and the Department of public expenditure would have taken advice on any settlement offered to the former CEO.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
I am assuming IFI did so, as we advised. I know it was reviewed by our internal legal team. I recall that the letter of sanction that came back from the Department of public expenditure expressly asked for an additional piece of transparency to be included in the final settlement agreement to ensure it could be appropriately reported, including, for example, in the accounts of IFI.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I just want to confirm that IFI did get legal advice on the settlement agreement before it was offered to the CEO. We have had three sets of legal eyes look at that settlement agreement, and they were all happy that it was in compliance with Irish law and could be offered.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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As the CEO is entitled to do, he declined to agree to the settlement. It is perfectly within his rights to do so.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I want to go back to the legislation. I am a bit confused. Will Ms Buckley tell me how long this legislative process has been going on? What year did it start?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
There are two separate pieces of legislation, which may be the cause of the confusion. For a very long time, as I understand it - I do not know how long - we have had a proposal in hand that we would consolidate the fisheries legislation that goes back to the 1950s. However, on foot of the Blackwater fish kill, the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, having listened to concerns from IFI and the report from the Commission about the inadequacies of the enforcement mechanisms, asked the officials to pull out the key parts of that legislation and update them first. That is the proposal that we started on from late last year.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Did the modernisation and consolidation legislation ever go through?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That was ongoing from 2013. I have letters here that show it went out for public consultation in 2013. How long did that continue?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It has been continuing since 2013 to make one piece of legislation.
Ms Martina Hennessy:
It is a huge undertaking, as I understand it, because the Act covers so many different areas that require modernising and being brought up to the standards that we would expect today. The reason it has taken so long is that the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, wrote to IFI after the fish kill incidents to ask it to identify-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why was it not in place before this? It was out for public consultation in 2013. Why was it not done between 2013 and when the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, came into office?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many years has the Department been working on it?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It was from 2013 until the Minister of State, Deputy Dooley, came into place in 2024. That is 11 years.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I am saying this because fines of €277,000 could not be implemented because there was no legislation in place.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Whatever about the fines, I have a document that shows that a lot of people were going to be charged, but they could not be charged because there was no legislation in place. Is that correct?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The IFI can initiate prosecutions for serious environmental breaches, such as fish kills. Formal delegated sanction from the board is required for IFI officers to initiate prosecutions. In March 2023, in response to a legal challenge in the prosecution, IFI discovered that a formal sanction of IFI staff was not in place. This discovery led to IFI withdrawing 50 prosecution cases. Were those cases not withdrawn because there was no legislation in place?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There is no legislation.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why was the Department trying to make legislation in 2013?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why could the fines not be implemented?
Mr. Barry Fox:
To clarify, under the Inland Fisheries Act 2010, the functions of IFI are with the board of IFI. Whatever functions the board does not reserve for itself have to be delegated to the CEO, who, in turn, will delegate them to the specific head of function responsible for that area. That process was not in place.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why was that not in place?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Why did that happen?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Department explain why that did not happen?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Department not there for oversight?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Department not have a role in IFI? If IFI is not carrying out its governance, does the Department not have a role?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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When it was reported to the Department, what did it do?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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It was not resolved because a lot of offences were withdrawn. Fifty prosecution cases were withdrawn.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What has happened since then regarding the 50 cases that were withdrawn? Have procedures been put in place so this will not happen again?
Mr. Barry Fox:
Yes. We now have a scheme of delegations in place, which tracks all of our delegations. For the delegations to the executive, we can confirm that they are all in place and are checked on an annual basis. The board reviews the scheme of delegations at its meetings. We do not believe this can happen again.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What was the total loss at that stage and the legal costs?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Was the Department notified that there was €277,000 in costs?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Regarding the management of Aasleagh Lodge and cottages, where is that at now?
Ms Suzanne Campion:
The cottages have recently received planning permission and the folio has been split. The properties are uploaded onto the OPW, as is protocol, and once the time limit has passed, we will be able to go to the board for approval. It will then go on to the Department, which will then go on to the Department of public expenditure for approval to sell and retain the funds.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Does that mean that Aasleagh Lodge and cottages are still sitting with-----
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is the value of those cottages?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How many cottages are there?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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There is also the lodge.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Are both up for sale?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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What is happening with the lodge?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Who is rolling out that training and research centre?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The IFI. How much is that costing?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Are the lodge and cottage both currently vacant?
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The lodge is being used for training. I did not think that was actually happening yet.
Cathy Bennett (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I have some concluding questions. I will return to a line of questioning I had been following around the protected disclosures and the serious allegations of blackmail that were made. Have the allegations Mr. Fox said he was made aware of six months ago and Professor Collins said he was aware of been referred to An Garda Síochána by IFI?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I ask the same question to the Department.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Department aware of any criminal investigation regarding the content of some of those protected disclosures?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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An investigator from-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The investigation Mr. Martin was talking about-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The witnesses are not aware of any investigation by An Garda Síochána at the moment.
In relation to the particular clause in the settlement that was rejected, I feel very uncomfortable. Will the Department give sight of the legal advice that was given for the inclusion of the provision that protected disclosures would be dropped? As far as I can ascertain, there is no provision in place, certainly within the protected disclosure legislation, to give merit to a position or approach like that.
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
Unfortunately, we have live investigations under way into protected disclosures in the Department. I will, regrettably, not be able to give any comfort to the Cathaoirleach on that. I also suspect that our legal advice is something we would hesitate to make available. I can say, as have assured the Cathaoirleach, that Department officials do not sign off on agreements that would be in breach of laws.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to the appointment of deputy CEOs, we know Ms Campion was a deputy CEO at one point. How long did you hold that position for, Ms Campion?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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How long are you, Mr. Fox, currently in that position?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Reappointed by?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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At our previous engagement, you said there was provision within the legislation for the appointment of deputy CEOs. What section of the legislation provides for that?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Does that make reference to it being temporary or does it define durations for the deputy CEO?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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In both of those instances, were the positions advertised internally or externally?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Were they advertised?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was that September last year? At what stage was that advertised?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Prior to that, were the positions advertised internally or externally?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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There was an internal procedure but they were not advertised.
For me, a deputy CEO role is for a very short period of time, not for an extended period, as we have seen in the IFI. Is this something that was given approval for by the Department?
Ms Oonagh Buckley:
We have mentioned how long the organisation has been without a CEO. It is important the organisation can run and there is somebody with the authority to take decisions about things like staffing, budgets and so forth. Yes, the Department was aware of the way in which the IFI was seeking to manage the vacancy at the very top of the organisation.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Had the Department given approval?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Were no concerns expressed by the Department in terms of the process or length of time the deputy CEO roles had gone on for?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, please check that. I welcome the appointment of the new CEO and look forward to engaging with Mr. Kelly at some point in the future.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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We will see. Did anyone here apply for the position? Mr. Fox, did you go for the position of CEO?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Is it a private matter for yourself, Ms Campion?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Was Mr. Kelly the unanimous candidate put forward by the board to the Department?
Professor Tom Collins:
The appointment was managed by the Public Appointments Service, PAS. I was on the interview panel and there was one other member of the board on the interview panel but the process was managed by the Public Appointments Service. It came forward with the nominee to us. The board approved that unanimously and the board then sought the approval of the Minister.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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I will move on to the process of bringing people through the courts, the failure, the number of cases that were ultimately dropped and the costs incurred as a result of that failed process in IFI.
I ask about the strategy pursued by IFI in relation to a court case involving three persons in Donegal. Local angling clubs were dragged through the courts at great cost, it has to be said. I am sure you are aware of the case to which I make reference. It concerns fishing rights on the Gweebarra river in Donegal. Are you aware of that case, Professor Collins?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is not outside the scope because, as has been highlighted in our previous engagement, it involves the strategy of bringing people through the courts when there was no legal basis. We know that authority had not been handed over to IFI to proceed in those cases, so there were no legal grounds. Hence, at great cost, those cases have been dropped. I am trying to establish if there was a legal basis in the context of the rights and strategy pursued by IFI in court cases of that nature.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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It is an historical case that has been through the courts.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay, IFI was fully entitled. Are you totally satisfied that there was a legal basis to pursue that case?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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The issue of fishing rights within the Gweebarra river-----
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is resolved. Who holds those fishing rights?
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. That concludes my line of questioning.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine. We have a copy of that letter. I acknowledge that and I will ensure that is circulated to all members of the committee.
John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
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That concludes our engagement for today. I thank the chair and his officials from Inland Fisheries Ireland for attending. I also thank the officials from the Department of Climate, Energy and the Environment and the Comptroller and Auditor General, in his absence, for his and his colleagues' attendance. Is it agreed that the clerk will seek any follow-up information and carry out any agreed actions arising from the meeting? Agreed.
The committee will next meet on Thursday, 16 April 2026 with the Department of Education and Youth to resume discussions on the appropriation account 2024; Vote 26 - appropriation account 2024; the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023; and chapter 7 - protecting the State's investment in the schools estate.