Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 26 March 2026
Committee on Drugs Use
International Perspectives on Legislation, Policy and Practice: Discussion
2:00 am
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Apologies have been received from Deputy Máire Devine and Senator Nicole Ryan. I am delighted to open the 20th public meeting of the joint committee and the fourth in our module on legal issues. Today, we will explore international perspectives on legal, policy and operational responses to drug use. Joining us online are Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva of the Porto Municipal Police and Dr. Mariam Jashi from the UNITE Parliamentarians Network for Global Health. They are both welcome.
Before we begin, I must read out a note on privilege. I remind witnesses and members of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such request.
I remind members of the constitutional requirement that in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. Members of the committee attending remotely must do so from within the precincts of Leinster House. This is due to the constitutional requirement that, in order to participate in public meetings, members must be physically present within the confines of the place where Parliament has chosen to sit. In that regard, I ask any members participating via Microsoft Teams to confirm, prior to making their contributions, that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.
Witnesses will each have five minutes to deliver their opening statements. This will allow plenty of time for questions and answers. If necessary, further or more detailed information can be sent to the clerk to the committee for distribution to members. I invite Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva to deliver his opening statement.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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Congratulations.
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
Thank you so much. I wish to make a disclaimer to the effect that English is not my native language. Member will find that out very soon. So, I ask members to be patient with me.
The criminalisation of drugs in Portugal, implemented in 2000 has been widely regarded as a innovative response to the challenges posed by substance dependence. Rather than adopting a punitive approach, the Portuguese model seeks to address addiction through a biopsychosocial framework, recognising the complex interplay between biological, psychological and social factors. This shift raises important questions regarding the nature of drug-related offences and the appropriate role of law enforcement. Specifically, it invites reflection on whether drug use should be treated as a conventional criminal matter or as a victimless offence embedded within broader social and health dynamics.
Traditional drug policies have often framed substance use as a criminal issue, emphasizing punishment and deterrence. However, such approaches frequently fail to address the underlying causes of addiction and may exacerbate social exclusion. In contrast, the Portuguese model redefines the drug user as a patient rather than an offender. This reclassification enables a more flexible and humane response, directing individuals toward treatment and support services.
The decriminalisation of drug use does not eliminate the role of the police; rather, it transforms it. In Portugal, police officers remain responsible for identifying drug use, seizing illicit substances, and referring individuals to the Commissions for the Dissuasion of Drug Addiction. This raises a critical question: has the role of the police fundamentally changed, or merely its formal expression? On one hand, law enforcement continues to bear a substantial operational burden. On the other, the nature of police intervention has shifted toward facilitating access to health-oriented responses. Importantly, police officers operate on the front line of social reality. Due to their constant exposure and immediate response obligations, they are frequently called upon to address situations that extend beyond strict legal enforcement. While it would be reductive to view police as de facto social workers, their role increasingly intersects with the social and public health domains, particularly in the context of drug use.
One of the most significant contributions of the Portuguese model lies in its ethical reorientation. By treating addiction as an illness rather than a moral failing or criminal act, it promotes dignity and reduces stigma. Despite its successes, the Portuguese model faces ongoing challenges. The resurgence of visible drug use in public spaces has reignited debate and raised concerns about the effectiveness of current strategies. At a broader level, the increasing proliferation of drugs across Europe underscores the need for continued reflection and adaptation. Drug policy must remain responsive to evolving patterns of use, trafficking and social impact.
From a professional policing perspective, the distinction between the pre- and post-decriminalisation periods is significant. Having operated within both frameworks, it is evident that the latter has produced more positive outcomes for society and for law enforcement institutions.
While the system is not without flaws, it has reduced the burden of criminalisation and allowed for more constructive engagement with individuals experiencing addiction. The Portuguese experience demonstrates that drug decriminalisation, when combined with a robust public health response, can provide a more effective and humane approach to substance dependence. It challenges traditional concepts of crime and punishment, particularly in relation to offences that lack a clear victim but that have profound social consequences. Nevertheless, the model requires continuous evaluation and refinement. The complexity of drug-related phenomena demands a balanced approach that integrates law enforcement, public health and social support systems.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank Dr. Leitão da Silva and invite Dr. Jashi to deliver her opening statement. I thank her for joining us. Dr. Jashi has five minutes.
Dr. Mariam Jashi:
I thank the members, my distinguished colleague and the Chairman. It is an absolute honour to join the session of the joint committee today on behalf of the UNITE Parliamentarians Network. Even though I am a former Member of the Georgian Parliament and a former deputy Minister of health, I will be speaking today on behalf of UNITE, which brings together 545 legislators from over 120 countries.
UNITE is the only network of parliamentarians, both current and former, that shares the commitment of advancing global health and advancing better health through better policy. UNITE operates the global drug policy desk, which promotes and supports legislators across different regions in adoption and enforcement of evidence-based drug policies. UNITE has focused on three major dimensions. First is the sustainable harm reduction service integration in universal health coverage services. Second is alternatives to incarceration and decriminalisation. Third is the regulatory frameworks relating to cannabis. The Open Society Foundation has been supporting these efforts.
I would like to highlight a couple of country examples of our work.
We already heard from Dr. Leitão da Silva about the excellent example of Portugal, which is the most cited international example. Portugal has 25 years of experience of decriminalising drug possession for personal use that has led to substantial reductions in injected drug use, associated HIV infections and, more importantly, drug-related deaths. The second example we would like to focus on is Switzerland, which introduced a four-pillar balanced approach built on harm reduction, treatment, prevention and repression of illicit markets three decades ago. This model has led to a 50% reduction in overdose deaths, a 65% fall in HIV infections and an 80% drop in new heroin users. I also refer to UNITE's Geneva course on drug policy that more extensively describes the Swiss example.
We are also delighted to note and welcome Ireland's initiative in establishing the Committee on Drugs use in response to recommendations from the citizens' assembly. UNITE also cites Ireland as an example, not only for the substance of its policy discussions but for its approach, which is based on inclusive deliberation, cross-party engagement and a clear commitment to bringing evidence into parliamentary discussions.
We are seeing growing regulatory efforts around cannabis in Canada, Uruguay and parts of the United States. We see that drugs policies are no longer theoretical discussions. We also see geographic expansion of the drug policy dialogue, with engagement of legislators from Kenya, Mexico, Pakistan and Zimbabwe. Work has also started in Malaysia and Ghana. UNITE has supported regional dialogues in Europe, Latin America and the Caribbean. Most importantly, in 2024, UNITE helped launch the manifesto for a progressive EU drug policy.
While we are proud to witness the drug policy reforms, we have to also be aware that the sustainability of this hard-won effort for drug policies will be extremely difficult against the reversing trend in democracy and human rights. The latest report of Freedom House in 2024 reported 19 consecutive years of global freedom decline, with fewer citizens living in free countries. In this context, we all, at national, regional and global levels, should expect that policies will shift towards harsher approaches and that we risk turning drug control into a tool of repression.
There are four major messages from an international perspective. First, we, as parliamentarians, must ground every important policy decision on data and evidence. In this respect, I will highlight two important documents I am sure our fellow legislators will find interesting. The Global Drug Policy Index, which was launched in 2021, summarises the five dimensions of drug policies, which are the absence of extreme punishments, proportionality in the criminal justice response, health and harm reduction, and development and human rights issues. There is also the recently launched Health Policy Trend Report by UNITE, which summarises good examples of evidence-based policies across different dimensions of global health, including drug policy. Second, we must move beyond a false choice between public order and public health. Effective policies can and must do both. The Portuguese, Swiss and other experiences have documented that effective reform should be paired with investment in care, housing, prevention, reintegration and community-led services. Third, we have to ensure that the people most affected by drug policies are part of the policy discussions. Fourth, we have a unique opportunity as parliamentarians. We legislate, oversee budgets and convene public debates. We can insist that drug policy is judged not by ideology but how it reduces harm, saves lives and protects dignity.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank Dr. Jashi. I will hand over to members. They have seven minutes for questions and answers. On the basis of the rota that was circulated prior to the meeting, Deputy Ann Graves will go first.
Ann Graves (Dublin Fingal East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank both witnesses for their excellent presentations. It is great to hear about their experiences and about the work they have done over the years, particularly in promoting an evidence-based approach to drugs policy.
I will start with Dr. Jashi. One of the big takes, or one of the things that jumped out at me, from her presentation was the significant drop in drug-related deaths in Portugal. It is worth noting that drug-related deaths in Ireland are more than twice the EU average. From the figures we have, we know that there were 343 deaths in the South and a 169 in the North of Ireland in 2023. I would like to hear what she thinks the practical steps are that we could take to reduce the harm done by drugs, particularly drug deaths. How can we ensure we have a comprehensive health-led approach to drug use? Where can we help and where can we reduce those awful losses?
Dr. Mariam Jashi:
I thank the Deputy so much for the question. I will use the opportunity to say that UNITE is in a unique position to share the Portuguese example in full detail. I am sure Dr. Leitão da Silva will comment and add to my response and it will be important to hear his perspective. I have personally witnessed how harm reduction and integrated drug policy reform works in Portugal. It is exactly based on the needs of the most vulnerable people. We have not only seen community centres for reintegration but replacement mobile clinics for ensuring there is no barrier to accessibility of replacement treatment for drug users.
The UNITE secretariat in Lisbon would be delighted to provide the full package of Portuguese data, evidence and details of prevention, harm reduction, reintegration and the other two pillars of the programme. We would also be delighted to propose a study visit, if the committee is interested, to see the hands-on experience and how this very effective policy works in Portugal in daily practice. It has been a very balanced policy approach. What we see is mutually enforced collaboration between public health and law enforcement institutions in the country.
Ann Graves (Dublin Fingal East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. Jashi for that. We would be absolutely delighted if she could share the data with members. That would be great.
My next question is for Dr. Leitão da Silva. Our Citizens' Assembly on Drugs Use recommended a comprehensive, health-led approach. This was more in line with the Portuguese model rather than a traditional punitive model. Unfortunately, the draft national drugs strategy we received - it is still only in draft form and is open to public consultation - does not really reflect the positive, progressive, health-led approach. The drugs strategy also moves away from that; it has no reference to the social and economic causes of the drug crisis. What are the key steps we should take to ensure that our drugs strategy reflects a health-led approach and tackles the causes and consequences of that strategy?
I have a second question for Dr. Leitão da Silva. The Department and An Garda were before the committee to discuss changes in legislation around punitive penalties for people in possession of drugs for personal use only. The argument against changing the legislation was that if people were stopped and had only a small amount of drugs on them, the Department felt that the likes of big drug dealers would use people to carry such amounts while having large stashes hidden behind walls. It did not want to change the legislation because of that.
It is nonsense as far as I am concerned but I wonder what the witnesses' take is on it?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
I thank the members for their questions. I will tell the committee a bit about our experience in Portugal. As I mentioned in my opening statement, I lived there before the legislation of 2000 and after. There is a huge difference between before 2000 and now, even though we had a hiccup in 2011. When IDT, the institute on drug use, was extinguished because of the Troika intervention in Portugal we had a setback. I know exactly what the concerns from the police side are, especially because people can divide up drugs if, under a trafficking strategy, the amount of drugs is reduced as it they will not be arrested if there is a police intervention. However, that is a very reductive way of thinking about policing in society. What is very clear from our perspective is that drug users are definitely not criminals. They are victims of a system. That is the first step we should take in addressing this issue in a conscious way. Second, the police will still be on the ground. Even though I may not understand in certain ways why there is still action by the police in referring individuals to the dissuasion commission, because I think the police should step back a little from that, at this stage our numbers are evidence of what we have in Portugal. Drug-related deaths in Portugal, when we compare the numbers with Ireland or Scotland, for example, are incredibly low.
As Dr. Jashi mentioned, one of our key points of success was this moral and straight approach to drug users and not identifying them as a criminal issue. Being a police officer, I am sure it requires a long period of reflection and adaptation by the police force and police officers. The police mindset cannot be switched with legislation; it takes time. Even after 25 years of experience, we still have some problems. I am not sure what the outcome will be from the public consultation regarding the law in Ireland but if you want to reduce the numbers of people who are killed - in my view, unjustifiably - the justification cannot be found for that-----
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I am sorry to interrupt but we have to move to our next questioner. We will come back if that is okay.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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I thank both witnesses for their presentations and for being with us. I am going to keep going with the Portuguese model, if Dr. Leitão da Silva does not mind. He stated that the "Portuguese experience demonstrates that drug decriminalisation, when combined with a robust public health response, can provide a more effective and humane approach to substance dependence." I am interested in the two-handed approach and what the roll-out was like in Portugal. Which came first? Were both approaches rolled out at the same time? Obviously, without the health-led approach, decriminalisation becomes a completely different conversation. Will Dr. Leitão da Silva talk us through, practically speaking, how both of those approaches were rolled out simultaneously, given that each was so dependent on the success of the other?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
They were simultaneous. For the police it was easy to implement because after the law came into force, police officers were suddenly not able to arrest individuals who possessed drugs. I will remind the committee of one thing that is very tricky, that is, the amount of drugs that is used for consumption. That is something that is not written in a person's ID and that is a very foggy area for the police. Something that should be borne in mind in every discussion is that this undetermined concept is sometimes very tricky for the police. The intervention was at the same time. From one side, the police were not considering the drug users as criminals and from the other side, we had a strong and robust public health response to treat people in terms of harm reduction and suddenly the numbers just came down.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Dr. Leitão da Silva mentioned that changing the police mindset takes time. That is probably something that is really obvious but when it is said out loud it makes sense. We are human. It takes us time to get used to new ways of policing and new ways of treating people when the law dictates that. To return to the time the law came into effect, there was a line in the opening statement about de facto social workers and perhaps more being expected of police officers in terms of having a better understanding of the social issues. Was extra training provided to the police force when that switch happened? Was this something on which police officers needed more support and training, given their role? Dr. Leitão da Silva stated: "While it would be reductive to view police as de facto social workers, their role increasingly intersects with the social and public health domains, particularly in the context of drug use." Given the switch in their role, were there extra supports needed or provided for the police officers?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
If I rewind the movie to 1999 from 2026, I would say that police at that time should probably have had more support. The world of drugs intersects even police families. It will definitely take time to change the police mindset. Basically, most of the drug users are sources of information for the police, as can be seen in criminal investigations, but this has nothing to do with decriminalising drugs. It places higher demands on the police to collect information and bring criminals to justice but, from my perspective in 2026, I would say the police should have had different support at the time.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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Focusing on the police force element of it, given that Dr. Leitão da Silva is a police officer and that this is his area of expertise, I wonder about potential pitfalls for us. Can he signpost the stumbling blocks? Was the cultural shift in the mindset one of the biggest stumbling blocks in making sure the change happened?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
Yes, because it is difficult to change the mindset from criminal to non-criminal. That is going to be the biggest challenge. Of course, there will be a huge reduction in paperwork and in police action with the courts and prosecutors, but I still emphasise that this will take time. Even 25 years after this law was introduced, and it was put into force in 2000, we still have some hiccups. This is a process. It is not something that will happen just with the law. To change the mindset requires a strong approach to the police, even in the way the police approach the citizen.
Evanne Ní Chuilinn (Fine Gael)
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That is understood. I thank Dr. Leitão da Silva. Does Dr. Jashi have anything to add on that mindset shift and what we can be aware of as we try to go down that road?
Dr. Mariam Jashi:
Let me add experience from Georgia in terms of partnership and collaboration with our police.
Even though Georgia missed its chance six years ago when we had an excellent package of draft policy reform, we could not reach multi-party and cross-party agreement on the dosing component of the policy that Dr. Leitão da Silva mentioned. Dosing remains one of the most challenging issues in terms of enforcement. However, other elements of crime reduction, including opioid replacement therapies and community services have been effectively implemented in Georgia. This started in 2002, when Global Fund-supported projects were implemented. The Government of Georgia then took over the implementation of donor-supported programmes. Part of the implementation involved the training of law enforcement representatives. Training and education should be core components of a balanced approach to public health and public order.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. I was trying to do a quick calculation. This week, there were some figures released as a result of the work done by a particular MEP which captured that over 5,400 drug offences came before the courts in Ireland in 2025. An analysis of the District Court figures shows that nearly 4,000 of those offences were section 3 offences. Such offences relate to simple possession. This is a very high number. Dr. Leitão da Silva mentioned the narrative change. There is a narrative that is being set in Ireland to the effect that people are not being prosecuted under section 3. There seems an attitude of "Nothing to see here. This not happening. We are already, de facto, not really applying section 3." That illustrates how section 3 stop-and-search powers are potentially being abused in Ireland.
Section 15 relates to sale and supply. The provisions under that section would be sufficient, if there were adequate police resources, time and training available, to deal with concerns about supply. I do not want to misquote Dr. Leitão da Silva. However, I recall that he spoke to the previous iteration of the Oireachtas committee regarding the confidence he had in the ability of his country's police force to focus on the real target of the justice system, which is supply. Does he feel that section 3 of Ireland's legislation, which, as stated, relates to simple possession and stop and search, is necessary in order for the authorities here to be able to continue to pursue matters relating to sale and supply under different aspects of legislation and in the context of police powers?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
I am not very familiar with Ireland's section 3, but I will comment on what the Senator mentioned. In our system right now, even though it is not a criminal offence, in order to intersect drug users and take them before the dissuasion commission, we still have to go through paperwork in a police station, seize and weigh the drugs and send the individual involved to the dissuasion commission. The police still have powers of stop and search for these specific matters, but there is no criminal prosecution later on.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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There is no point at which there is a criminal prosecution. So if somebody does not attend a dissuasion commission, do they have to admit an offence to be able to receive the dissuasion?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
No. To go to the dissuasion commission, they have to say that they are a drug user. They sell the drugs and the police seize the drugs. It is still an offence. It is not a crime. It is a misdemeanour, but there is still a reaction from the state's point of view. However, it is not a criminal offence. The police are still engaged in seizing the drugs. It is a case of search, seize, wait and seal the drugs, and then send the individual to the dissuasion commission. It is not a crime, however.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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In Ireland, it has been stated that a health-led approach is actually an adult caution scheme and that it is at the discretion of the Garda Síochána. It is not automatic, and it is strike based. Does Dr. Leitão da Silva consider that health led?
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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Exactly. When I was looking at the District Court figures, I discovered that some of the highest numbers are concentrated in the larger cities. When you go deeper into the data to examine who in those cities is stopped, searched and policed, you get down to much deeper questions and observations around class. If we are having a wider conversation in Ireland whereby we are saying that drugs are used across all different types of groups and communities in society, we have to accept that not all of the people in those different groups and communities will be policed or end up in front of a judge for simple possession. How do the Portuguese authorities make decisions around who is stopped and searched and where they are stopped and searched? Is there a social class analysis that has become apparent since the Portuguese system was put in place?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
No, not at all. When we are talking about different types of drugs, we are dealing with different layers of society. For example, when we are talking about cheap cocaine, we can identify several groups that are using crack, for example. When we are talking about cocaine, we are talking about different groups. We do not make any distinctions at all. My experience is that we do not have that kind of frontier whereby if a person is from a higher class, he or she will not be subject to police intervention. That type of policing would be very unfair and profoundly illicit and illegal.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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It is probably different in Ireland. Would you be more likely to encounter policed persons in particular communities in some of the big cities in Portugal than you would in other communities? It is not necessarily that a distinction is made when somebody is stopped and searched and it then becomes apparent what type of community they are from. I am talking about the types of communities that are more heavily policed on the basis, maybe, of social deprivation.
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
I understand the Senator's point, but we do not make that distinction at all. Strongholds of drug consumption are usually connected with social neighbourhoods, but our points of interest are not just based on these specific areas. They are much wider. If you want to go deeper into drug dealing, you have to go to other areas as well.
Lynn Ruane (Independent)
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What is the position when it comes to supply in Porto? Is it still two weeks?
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations. To continue on the conversation around the differentiation between drugs for personal use and those for sale and supply, how do the police in Portugal draw the line between the two? Dr. Leitão da Silva just touched on it there. How do they decide?
People might say that they have a supply of drugs to do them for whatever period. How can we know when that is not true and the intention is to supply?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
This is the million dollar question. Ultimately, information has to be cross-checked with other individuals. As we mentioned at the beginning, this is not just a police issue. There are social workers and consumption rooms on the ground, and if we can all have a sustainable platform to talk, we can make stronger and wiser decisions. However, as the Deputy mentioned - and his question is valid - it is very difficult for police officers to say that an individual only consumes once a day; it is the experience of the police on the ground that will decide that at the end of the day.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Leitão da Silva mentioned that there is a resurgence of visible drug use in public spaces and that this has reignited debate and raised concerns about the effectiveness of current strategies. How has that debate manifested itself? What are the arguments for and against now, and have they changed since this policy change in the early 2000s?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
One of the things we are currently discussing, especially with the spike in drug trafficking, mainly of cocaine, in Europe, is what to do about the public exposure to drug use. That is not well debated in Portugal either, because the only thing we criminalise, taking into account our drug law, is if individuals abandon syringes. That is a crime, but if they are consuming drugs in public spaces, sometimes there is nothing the police can do. The police can seize the drugs and send the person to the dissuasion commission, but the question should be asked as to whether this is the police's real job. I still have some doubts.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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We have a legalised drug in Ireland, much like in Portugal. It is alcohol, which has done enormous damage to society over many years in terms of domestic violence and economic deprivation in families and the social implications of it across generations are enormous. There are enormous difficulties with policing and the courts service and all the pressure it adds. Is the same valid with the legalisation of drug use in Portugal?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
I understand the question about alcohol because we have the same problem in Portugal. We are talking about two different areas, however, although, in some ways, alcohol probably produces a much more negative social impact than certain drugs. We have some legislation that controls the consumption of alcohol in public spaces, like the Netherlands has, but still, we cannot compare.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Leitão da Silva has experience in policing. One of the big complaints we have here, certainly in Dublin, is that people constantly complain about the strong smell of cannabis. It is becoming more prevalent. Certainly, in my anecdotal experience, there is more use of cannabis, and it is becoming stronger in its potency and smell. A lot of people complain about it and do not want to have to experience that, unless they make the decision that it is something they want to do. Has Portugal ever considered having geographical areas in cities where people can consume rather than impose their habit on other people?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
No, we do not have that. Taking into account my experience and knowledge of other places, I do not remember any place that has established specific areas for drug consumption. Even now, when we have cannabis with a high percentage of tetrahydrocannabinol, we do not foresee a need at this stage to have specific areas for drug consumption.
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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Dr. Leitão da Silva may have answered this already, but I am not sure I understood the mechanism. If people are found with drugs in their possession for personal use and referred to the dissuasion commission and they do not participate in it, there is no consequence for them. Is that correct?
Tom Brabazon (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
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In our system in Ireland, for all its faults and ills, when people have the ultimate sanction of going to court, the court holds the sword of Damocles over them such that if they do not seek treatment, the potential alternative is conviction. That is available in our court system. Portugal has nothing like that to persuade people to seek treatment.
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
Yes, persuading people to get treatment is based on individual freedom. That cannot be taken out of the equation. One of the good things the numbers reveal is what the situation was before 2000 and what it is after 2000. I am not using Ireland's numbers, but Scotland, for example, has a huge number of deaths in a population of 5 million. We have fewer than 100 in a population of almost 11 million. These numbers should make us think.
Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for their presentations and for the work they have done over many years in this area. In Portugal, when the law was changed in 2000, what additional supports were put in place to deal with people who were using drugs? What new processes were put in place as regards health support? Was training provided to members of the police force at that time regarding how to deal with it?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
As I mentioned previously, there was very little training. The challenges were much more in the harm reduction perspective and the public health reaction to the new law and less on the police side. The police, as part of the equation, were challenged to refer people to the dissuasion commission, but, as I mentioned in my opening statement, the answers cannot be divided into different layers. The response has to be balanced. As already stated, there is a biopsychosocial answer to this. This will not lie just with the police. That was much easier because police officers did not have to arrest people and send a case to the prosecutor and then the judge, which was time-consuming. The challenge was much more targeted at the social and health systems. For example, the challenge right now, when we have a spike in the use of drugs in Portugal, is not for the police but much more for the health system because of the comorbidities and all kinds of diseases connected with drug use.
Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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In Ireland, we have introduced a supervised injection facility. It opened in the past 13 or 14 months and is proving to be successful in the sense of assisting those who are injecting.
Were similar systems put in place in Portugal at the time, and are they still in place? Are there any lessons we could learn from the operation of those facilities?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
Unfortunately, while we have the very progressive law of 2000, the drug consumption rooms in Porto, for example, where I was chief of police, have only been in existence for three years. That is highly critical and should be questioned because I think we made the house upside down. We are just now opening the drug consumption facilities 20 years after the law was passed, which does not make sense at all.
These units are critical units for referring not just for comorbidities but also for individuals who need mental health support. That is something that can be easily criticised in our system, because drug consumption facilities have been in law since 2001, and they were just implemented in Porto, for example, in 2022.
Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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Looking at other European countries, is Portugal satisfied it has all the mechanisms in place to deal with this, or are there some new things being planned, based on what has been learned over the past 20 or 25 years? Is there something further that Portugal intends to do over the next five to ten years to deal with this issue? One of the problems in Portugal is the huge tourist population coming in, which I presume has additional challenges because of the volume. How is Portugal able to manage that from the point of view of assisting people who have addiction problems?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
One of the things I would like to stress is if you want a strong policy and a strong tool to tackle this phenomenon, you need money. You need to be subsidised for all kinds of strategies you want to implement. As the Deputy mentioned, Portugal right now is a spot for tourist activity, even though, and I have checked this information with the drug consumption rooms, DCR, we have a very low percentage - probably below 1% - of foreigners consuming drugs in these facilities.
One of the problems we have right now is, as I mentioned, the public exposure of drug consumption on the streets. That is something we do not have a strategy for, or at least the right strategy. The issue lies in between the police and the drug commission in this context, and where there is a gap from my perspective, is with the social workers, who are probably not very well used right now.
Colm Burke (Cork North-Central, Fine Gael)
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I just want to ask Dr. Jashi about Switzerland, which she referred to in her statement. Looking at what Switzerland has done, is there something in particular we should be looking at where it has been successful? I know it has reduced the number of people using heroin, for instance. Are there things we should now be putting in place in Ireland? As I said, we have opened a supervised injection facility in the past 12 months and it is working. Are there other things we should be doing to assist people who have addiction problems?
Dr. Mariam Jashi:
I thank the Deputy for his question. Hearing from him and his esteemed colleagues, of course, every country has its own local context where the policies should be adapted in the context of how best to enforce and balance the approach. From Ireland's perspective, the Swiss model could be even more interesting to explore because it brings in the human rights and public health approach of prevention, harm reduction and reintegration of enforcement of stronger efforts at illicit drug market control.
We would be delighted, through the UNITE Drug Policy Desk, to provide a detailed description of the Swiss model that members could use for reference. The results are truly astonishing, with a 50% drop in heroin overdose deaths and 80% drop in heroin users. Switzerland has also introduced heroin-assisted health services for drug users where other approaches of drug replacement were not successful. The Swiss model could be a very interesting addition to sharing experience for Ireland.
As I have to leave - my apologies, I have another commitment - and since the committee has already advanced these discussions, I appeal to members and their colleagues not to miss this opportunity to adopt a balanced drug policy response. The examples from Portugal, Switzerland and some other countries have proven that it saves lives. Despite all the challenges that could appear on the law enforcement front, I am sure the optimal solution can be found.
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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I thank Dr. Jashi for that.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I want to go straight back to Dr. Jashi about the Swiss model. We all get the idea of where we want to be about harm reduction and I suppose the best - is she gone?
Gary Gannon (Dublin Central, Social Democrats)
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She is gone. She said she had to go.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, she had something. Anyway, it was that point around what repression of the elicit market roughly three decades ago looked like.
It is great to have Dr. Leitão da Silva here. I am going to follow on with that piece the Garda spoke about. If I recall exactly what the representatives said, it was that in most cases where somebody has been arrested for straightforward, simple possession, it is done on the basis that it is somebody who is known to the Garda. They said they saw it as almost a weapon being taken away from them in disrupting the sale and supply of drugs. I get that much of this depends on the individual garda and it leaves an awful lot up to them regarding what determination is made. The Portuguese figures speak for themselves. How do we sell to the Garda a Portuguese model that will also work here? As much as drugs are everywhere, and it is very different for somebody using crack cocaine versus cocaine, we have a particular issue in deprived areas whereby criminal gangs will use vulnerable people and engage people in criminal actions. I always have an issue in that as much as we are not going to out-police this - the war on drugs is well and truly lost - it is not okay to leave long-term drug operations in sight in these places. Much of the time, young people see it as, "That guy has been able to do that for ten years-plus. He lives in a nice house and has lots of money. That's a road I can go down". We also need to deal with that and with the chaos that is caused for wider communities.
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
I do not know if I got the Deputy's question right, but I understand all the arguments from the police perspective because, at the end of the day, they are my arguments as well. Currently, drug traffickers divide drugs into small amounts, for example, and send them to the streets so that if the police intercept them, they can always say they are for their own consumption. This is a strategy.
At the end of the day, the work of the police is much more than this and includes gathering information. If an individual argues that the amount of drugs they have is for their own consumption but we have strong evidence it is for drug dealing, we arrest them.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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On the basis of wider evidence and investigation, the police can still carry out an arrest.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What Dr. Leitão da Silva would say to the Garda is that what it wants to protect is not an absolute necessity for the work it wants to do.
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
Definitely not because we still have large seizures of drugs, there are still search warrants and individual searches, and we are still arresting people based on information. All of us know that when the police put an effort into arresting someone and identifying criminal actions, the people involved tend to change their strategies. The police also have to change their investigating strategies. As I mentioned, almost on a daily basis there are cases where people reduce the amount of drugs they possess in order to be identified as common drug users, but we have information on these individuals and we can prove very clearly they are not common drug users but drug dealers.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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This is useful. Dr. Marta Pinto said, when she was before the committee, that at one stage anything above a certain amount was possession for sale but this has been removed. She said drug dealers took action to try to use this level of flexibility. I am working on the basis that the police in Portugal also have an amount of flexibility, and if they see somebody they believe is vulnerable and a drug addict who is collecting drugs for themselves and their friends, as much as people should not do this, it is very different from somebody who is part of a drug dealing operation, and they can make this differentiation. If members of a drug gang are working on the basis of only possessing small amounts, this is something that can be addressed by the police and there is no restriction in how they can operate in this regard.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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No, and I accept that.
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
One of the challenges is to gather strong evidence and this is what we usually do. Sometimes we arrest people who have a very small amount and who could easily be identified as having drugs for personal use, but we have strong evidence that it is for drug dealing.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Dr. Pinto also spoke about the dissuasion commissions having other measures they can employ from time to time as regards slight punitive sanctions. Will Dr. Leitão da Silva tell me exactly how this works?
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am using the wrong term. It is more the idea where somebody the commission is dealing with is not to be in a place where they were causing a nuisance or where they went to score drugs. She spoke about the fact that there could be a ban on these people being in certain areas or possibly going to a nightclub.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach:
I thank Dr. Leitão da Silva for joining us and sharing his experience and expertise. It is incredibly valuable to us. I want to clarify a couple of issues, particularly with regard to the Portuguese model. I also have questions on the Swiss model and the evidence provided to us by Dr. Jashi, and I would like to follow up with some questions to her on this. My first questions are on the Portuguese model. Portugal has not legalised drugs, it has decriminalised them. Will Dr. Leitão da Silva confirm it has decriminalised all drugs and it is not just cannabis and cocaine?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
In Porto there are specific areas, usually areas where the police have difficulties gaining access from a geographic point of view. They use this protective environment to sell drugs. They are usually strongholds which the police attack once in a while, when they have enough evidence to arrest, seize and search.
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
We cannot say this as we have had the same strongholds for the past 30 years, since I was a police officer in 1994. Even though they change sites once in a while, depending on police action, the same areas are usually identified. I am not saying they are low class areas but they are social neighbourhoods where the way the buildings are built means is much easier to sell drugs because there is architectural protection of illicit activity.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach:
I do not need Dr. Leitão da Silva to provide them now but have statistics been gathered in Portugal on the sale of drugs since decriminalisation? I am particularly interested to understand whether the sale of drugs has increased in a dispersed way or if it has increased in a concentrated way. If this is data Dr. Leitão da Silva thinks he can get his hands on at some stage it would be useful.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach:
My next question has been asked a couple of times but it is important for us to understand policing practice. The police in Portugal understand the drugs themselves have been decriminalised.
If somebody is consuming drugs in a public space, the police then engage with that individual but consumption in a public space is not decriminalised, is it?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
Previous experience with the individual or with the context of the individual. Most of the time the police are much more keen to work purely as a law enforcement agency. There could be information available that can connect the individual to criminal activity. Most of these individuals, even though they are drug users, are connected with other criminal activities, especially minor criminality like theft, for example.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach:
I am over time but I will ask one more question, if I may. I hope I am not abusing my position in the Chair. In Ireland we have an injection facility. We do not have a consumption room but we have an injection facility. It is only for injectable drugs. Was Dr. Leitão Da Silva aware of that?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
Yes, there are only three and that is one thing that can be highly criticised because we do not just have drug users in Lisbon and Porto. These kinds of facilities can reorganise drug consumption around major cities which can have a direct impact on drug dealing as well. This is something that can be highly criticised. The DCRs should be spread around the country to avoid this kind of concentration of drug users because this will have a direct impact on drug trafficking.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach:
In terms of policing, one of the criticisms I hear often about policing in Ireland is that there can, at times, be an element of containment in policing practices. If activities are contained in a certain area, the policing of that area is, either intentionally or unintentionally, facilitating a level of activity and there is an efficiency to that. Dr. Leitão da Silva spoke about the three consumption centres and the activity that they have attracted. In that context, is there an element of containment going on?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
No. We are probably very similar in terms of rights and how we think about it. I have a very close relationship with the officer in charge of the drug facilities. At the beginning, the police were not very welcome in the vicinity of the facilities, but suddenly people realised that the police were part of the solution and not part of the problem. We had major fights in front of the facilities, and we had stabbings and other kinds of criminal activity in the vicinity of the facilities. Therefore, most of the consumers prefer to have the police force nearby rather than far away. That is something that I would like to write about in a scientific paper, to explain the role of the police in these kinds of facilities. Based on the experience of drug consumption rooms in Porto, the police force is not alien but is a co-worker to a certain extent.
Ann Graves (Dublin Fingal East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank our witnesses for the discussion, which has been very enlightening. I was a bit flippant about our draft strategy earlier. We are moving forward and it is positive that we are moving towards a health-led approach. However, I have some issues with it, one of which is the change in legislation. Even among members of this committee, there will be different views on the legislation. Indeed, even within my own party, there are different views. However, this discussion has clarified quite a lot for us, particularly the fact that it is discretionary and is left to the discretion of the police. In that sense, the change in the legislation is somewhat moot.
To follow on from what Senator Fitzpatrick said about the concentration in areas where drugs are sold, presumably selling drugs is still a criminal offence while using them is not. If there are areas which are almost like markets for drugs, would it not be the case that the police would swoop in on those areas and charge the people who are actually selling the drugs or are they given free rein to do what they want?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
The drug dealers are easily identified but sometimes it is very difficult to gather evidence because most good drug dealers are not touching the drugs. One of the things that is very easy to see in Porto and in other places, not just in Portugal, is that the police just change the drug-dealing corners. The police sections are not solving the issue of the drug consumption. They can solve one small part of the drug trafficking issue but they are not solving the main issue that we are discussing here, which is drug consumption. There are some authors who argue that the police have just changed the corner where drugs are sold, and we see that very clearly in Porto. We had a huge police operation in one of the social neighbourhoods. We had a strong presence, 24-7, for three months in one neighbourhood and the only thing that we saw was a spike in drug dealing in a different neighbourhood.
Ann Graves (Dublin Fingal East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Dr. Leitão da Silva.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I will just continue on from that. I can think of a number of issues that have arisen, even in the last while, where there is an element of drug-taking, some of it very chaotic. Obviously, drug dealing happens not very far from that. In an awful lot of cases, we deal with residents. While it is right to say it is displacement, the residents will be happy enough if that activity is displaced away from their front doors.
Dealing with the underlying drug problem is a far bigger issue. Dr. Leitão da Silva has sold the Portuguese model very well and has addressed some of the issues where objections had even been made by the Garda. The bigger point is that it will only work if the support structures are there because there is not much point in putting someone into the equivalent of a commission of dissuasion if we do not have whatever supports are required, be those in health or whatever else.
Perhaps Dr. Leitão da Silva could speak to us more on the visibility of drug-taking and the fact that it is an issue. Beyond that, what are the advantages that he has seen? We have seen some of the statistics on lives saved, fewer people engaged in dangerous drug-taking and all of that. From his point of view as a police officer and what he has seen, what are the positives and some of the negatives that still need to be dealt with?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
Let us start with the negatives. Public exposure is one of the things that we should address at this stage right now in Portugal, especially since we have had a huge augmentation in the number of drug users, which means much more public exposure. Technically, we should do something on this.
The positive is the reduction in the terrible amount of paperwork for the police and the amount of time this took before 2000. I do not just mean the police, but also the courts and prosecutors. I think this has not yet been studied and it would be a very good PhD thesis to check it out and see what the effective cost in terms of money and resources was under the new law and with in the reduction in numbers. That was clear since the very beginning. The Irish system is probably different, but when we arrest an individual, the police officer takes the individual to the prosecutor and has to stay until the first hearing with the judge. That is very time consuming. When we take this action into account along with public safety, it means one less police officer on the front line for other criminal stuff, so the change was very effective from our side.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I can imagine. We have all seen the courts being loaded with an awful lot of issues that relate to low-level criminal drug activity. From time to time, they have been able to deal with the chaos and the criminality that comes from this, and the wider society that can be impacted on it.
I have one last question. Has Dr. Leitão da Silva any proposals for how to deal with visible drug-taking?
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I thought that would be the answer.
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
I have to admit that it is quite a headache for the police. There are people who have nothing to do with drugs who are living in a peaceful environment and suddenly they have someone with a syringe in their front entrance. They ask for the police to go there and it is very difficult for the police to enforce. Sometimes, the police just report to the spot and they ask gently of the individual who is using drugs to go somewhere else. Still, this is something that should be addressed.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I can imagine the difficulties that creates for the police in Portugal. Obviously, it is something that needs to be addressed.
Dr. Leitão da Silva spoke earlier about when the troika was in. This system works when the resources follow those who need them, be those resources health related, education related or so on. Have any cutbacks impacted on this? Does he believe it is sufficiently resourced now to give the maximum optimal output?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
One of the things we faced on the ground when the IDT was extinguished was a lack of support, which should never have happened. At the end of the day, it is the police who report to the scene. They are probably one of the only public institutions that reports 24 hours a day.
I would like to stress that if you want to put money in a strategy, you have to put money into the police force, social security, medical facilities and mental health strategies. Sometimes, we tend to minimise the impact of drugs on mental health. There is a huge impact, especially because a lot of people who are on the streets were initially completely fine but right now have some mental health diseases that could have been prevented had we had enough investment in that beforehand.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We have a similar issue here in relation to that.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach:
Historically, we have called it the Cinderella of the health service, but Dr. Leitão da Silva is correct and it is not. It should not be.
We are coming to the end of the meeting and I just have one question. Dr. Leitão da Silva mentioned that there was debate now around the merits of the decriminalisation process in Portugal, particularly as it related to the public prevalence and openness of drug consumption in public places. Dr. Leitão da Silva spoke about the challenges from a policing perspective. Is there a timeline for a formal review? I understand from his contribution that there is public and political debate on the issue, but is there a schedule for a formal review of the operations?
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
The committee will probably know that the previous mayor of Porto was very vocal regarding the public exposure of drugs. There are some types of legislation that are critical politically and are very critical to change because we are talking about ideology and a lot of different issues. I think it is going to take time. Even though there may be political debate about the public exposure of drugs, it will take time and as far as I am aware, it is not definitely on the political agenda of any of the political parties in Portugal. There is a major outcry from some communities, as I mentioned, that are not very happy to have drug users at their front doors. The debate will have a political impact but there is no agenda currently for that.
Dr. António Manuel Leitão da Silva:
Taking into account that I am abiding with the committee's rules and that, while there is no secrecy, this is a reserved arena, when a person abandons a syringe in Portugal, it is a crime.
To be honest, I think that it should be an offence, especially in the vicinity of some facilities, for example, schools and hospitals.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach:
Absolutely.
I sincerely thank Dr. Leitão da Silva for his contributions. No other member has indicated that they want to speak, so I will conclude our public session. I thank Dr. Leitão da Silva and our other witness for their time and for their engagement with the committee. The meeting is adjourned until 12.30 p.m. on 16 April 2026. Go raibh maith agaibh agus slán.