Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 25 March 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Agriculture and Food
Live Exports: Discussion
2:00 am
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No apologies have been received.
Before we begin, I bring to everyone's attention that witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the evidence they give to a committee. This means that a witness has a full defence in any defamation action for anything said at a committee meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege and may be directed to cease giving evidence on an issue at the Chair's direction. Witnesses should follow the direction of the Chair in this regard and are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that, as is reasonable, no adverse commentary should be made against an identifiable third person or entity. Witnesses who are giving evidence from a location outside the parliamentary precincts are asked to note that they may not benefit from the same level of immunity from legal proceedings as witnesses giving evidence from within the parliamentary precincts and may consider it appropriate to take legal advice on the matter. Privilege against defamation does not apply to the publication by them outside the proceedings held by the committee of any matters arising from the proceedings.
Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against either a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.
Parliamentary privilege is considered to apply to the utterances of members participating online in this committee meeting when their participation is from within the parliamentary precincts. Members may not participate online in public meetings from outside the parliamentary precincts. Any attempt to do so will result in the member having their online access removed.
The agenda for today is in respect of live exports. We have Mr. Derek Maxwell from Maxwell Livestock Exports and Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh from the Irish Livestock Exporters Association. Tá fáilte rompu. They have both provided opening statements and will have the opportunity to read through them for five minutes each before proceeding to questions and answers with the members.
Mr. Derek Maxwell:
I am here today to give a general, practical, on-the-ground, real-life perspective on the livestock trade in Ireland. My business is based in County Roscommon. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before the committee today and to contribute to the discussion on behalf of those working on the ground in the Irish livestock trade.
I come from a farming background and represent a third-generation family business with a long-standing involvement in the cattle trade. I have been personally involved in the sector for many years, building on that foundation and continuing the work of those before me. My business focuses primarily on sourcing and trading high-quality weanlings, particularly high end suckler bred weanlings, working closely with farmers across the country. We operate a fast and efficient system, typically buying, feeding and turning cattle within a short period, supplying both the domestic and export trades. Through this work, I engage daily with primary producers, marts, feed suppliers and export channels, giving me a practical understanding of the challenges and opportunities facing the sector.
My role places me at a key point between the farmers and the marketplace. I see first hand how policy decisions impact both ends. I am here today to share practical perspectives and highlight issues facing the viability, competitiveness, the future of the livestock trade and the importance of the livestock trade. Live exports are of crucial importance to farmers across Ireland and to the overall functioning of our sector. They provide essential competition in the marketplace, ensuring that farmers have more than one outlet for their stock. Without a strong and reliable live export trade, farmers would be left increasingly dependent on a small number of processors, which would inevitably weaken their bargaining position and put downward pressure on prices.
From my own experience on the ground, I see how live exports underpin confidence, particularly in the weanling trade. Farmers need to know there is a constant demand for their animals, especially for the continental-type suckler bred cattle, which are highly sought after in export markets. The demand is reflected directly in the prices farmers receive at marts and on farms. Live exports also play a vital role in balancing supply within the country. At peak times of the year, particularly in the autumn, the numbers of cattle coming onto the market can exceed domestic processing capacity. Export outlets relieve the pressure and help stability in the price. In addition, the export trade supports a wide network of rural activities - from marts and hauliers to feed suppliers and veterinary services. It is not just about the movement of cattle; it is about sustaining rural economies and livelihoods.
It is important to recognise that the live export trade in Ireland operates to very high standards, with strict regulations governing animal welfare, transport and traceability. Those standards are essential and must continue to be upheld but it is equally important that the trade is supported and facilitated, not restricted unnecessarily. Ultimately, a strong live export trade is not in competition with our processing industry - it is a necessary complement to it. Both are needed to ensure a balanced, competitive and sustainable cattle sector that delivers fair returns to our farmers.
When it comes to animal health and vaccination, while the live export trade is hugely important, there are also very real challenges on the ground that need to be addressed to protect and strengthen it. One of the most significant issues we encounter in the viability of our trade is animal health, particularly in relation to respiratory disease in weanlings. That has had a direct impact not only on animal welfare but also on performance, confidence in the trade and, ultimately, the prices farmers receive. From my experience, vaccination is one of the most effective tools we have to tackle this problem. Where calves are properly vaccinated in advance of sale, they are stronger, more resilient and better able to handle the stress of weaning, transport and dietary changes.
However, the reality is that vaccination is not yet consistent across the board. This creates difficulties right through the supply chain. Unvaccinated or poorly prepared weanlings are more prone to illness, which can lead to setbacks, increased treatment and added pressure on animal welfare. There is a clear opportunity for leadership and encouragement at national level to promote more widespread, or blanket, vaccination of weanlings. If this became standard practice, it would significantly reduce health issues, improve performance and increase buyer confidence, both domestically and in export markets. Greater uptake of vaccination would also help reduce the reliance on antibiotics. That is a key objective for the industry and for policymakers alike. Healthier animals from the outset means fewer interventions later, which is better for the animal, the farmer and the long-term sustainability of the sector. In simple terms, better preparation on farms leads to better outcomes for everyone involved.
Another issue we have is journey times and regulations for the export trade. I would like to highlight the increased pressure around journey time regulations for livestock across Europe. Ireland, as an island nation, is in a unique position compared to our European counterparts. Every animal that is exported from Ireland must, by necessity, be transported by sea. This is something that simply cannot be avoided in the same way it can within mainland Europe. While we fully support high standards of animal welfare - it is essential that they are maintained - it is important that regulations also reflect the practical realities of geography. A one-size-fits-all approach to journey times does not take into account the additional logistical challenges faced by countries like Ireland.
From a practical point of view, excessively restrictive journey limits could significantly impact our trade. That, in turn, would reduce competition for farmers' stock and put further pressure on prices at farm level. I believe there is a strong case for Ireland to be considered for a degree of flexibility or exemption within EU rules, recognising our island status, while still fully upholding animal welfare standards. The industry has shown that it can deliver both high welfare and efficient transport when given a workable framework. It is important that any future regulations strike a fair balance between protecting animal welfare and maintaining the viability of the live export trade that so many farmers depend on.
In conclusion, the live export trade is a vital pillar of the Irish cattle sector. It supports farm incomes, underpins competition and sustains rural economies across the country. With the right support, practical regulations and a continued focus on animal health and welfare, it can continue to play a strong and positive role into the future. I thank the committee for its time and I welcome any questions members may have.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
I thank the Cathaoirleach, Deputies and Senators. My name is Lorcan O’Dochartaigh. I have been appointed by the Irish Livestock Exporters' Association as its trade representative. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before this committee today to discuss the current state and future of Ireland’s live export sector, a sector that is both economically significant and, I would respectfully contend, vital to maintaining balance within our broader agricultural framework.
Just last year, livestock exporters generated up to €500 million for the Irish economy. At the outset, I acknowledge the continuing support of Bord Bia in the promotion and protection of Irish livestock interests abroad. Its efforts in market development and in maintaining Ireland’s reputation for quality have been invaluable, to say the least. That said, there remains scope, and indeed a strong need, for greater dedicated support to livestock exports, particularly in advocating for the protection of the industry coupled with consolidating new and emerging trade relationships. Encouragingly, new relationships have been forged and it is my firm hope that closer, more structured collaboration between industry and Bord Bia can and will continue.
In that context, live exporters have taken the initiative in forming an association and nominating a representative to engage directly with competent authorities, both nationally and internationally, as well as with TDs, MEPs, and other European stakeholder organisations, to help resolve issues that impact our trade. The aim is to work constructively in the interests of all Irish livestock exporters, supporting the development of new markets and the protection of existing ones. Livestock exporters make a substantial financial contribution to Bord Bia - approximately €750,000 per year - via the statutory levy. Therefore, it is felt reasonable to request that a modest percentage of that funding be reverted to Irish Livestock Exporters' Association to assist in covering the costs of this vital representative work. I am sure we can all agree that a strong, properly resourced livestock exporters' association is ultimately in the best interests of everyone involved in the sector.
All too often, livestock exporters have found themselves overlooked or ignored in discussions and negotiations with Government bodies and EU institutions. That simply must change. Livestock exporters, as those most directly engaged in the trade, must have a seat at the table during any negotiations or discussions, going forward. I also wish to place on record my appreciation for the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. Officials there operate under considerable pressure, frequently seeking to reconcile opposing and deeply entrenched viewpoints. The Department’s position, often being between competing imperatives, is not an easy one and I wish to recognise that publicly.
Turning to some of the practical realities facing livestock exporters, shipping availability remains a critical bottleneck. Dependence on roll-on, roll-off, RORO, vessels with limited capacity operating across two routes, coupled with unfavourable weather conditions, has created genuine uncertainty in trade continuity.
Recent smear campaigns aimed at the walk-on vessel trade, some of which are personal in nature, are a cause for concern and threaten the viability of continued success in that field too.
Added to that, the cost pressures facing road transport are stark. Under the current conditions, operating a livestock transport vehicle is now approximately €90 per hour purely in fuel costs, before accounting for labour, compliance or maintenance overheads. These are conditions that no enterprise can sustain indefinitely.
We also face growing difficulty in countering disinformation propagated by certain activist groups and NGOs. Much of what circulates publicly bears little resemblance to the factual record or the assurances built into Ireland’s animal welfare framework, which remains among the most comprehensive in Europe. These campaigns, while often well-intentioned on the surface, have in practice distorted perceptions of our trade and jeopardised the trust built by exporters over decades. It must be noted that Irish livestock exporters have been at the forefront of developing, implementing and maintaining the highest animal welfare procedures and standards among our EU counterparts.
Looking ahead, the most concerning policy development on the horizon is the anticipated amendment to Council Regulation 1/2005. As indicated, the reforms under consideration by the Commission, particularly regarding journey times, onboard feeding and stocking density, would, if implemented as drafted, effectively end Ireland’s capacity to participate in legitimate live export markets. This would not constitute reform so much as closure. It is, therefore, imperative that Ireland’s voice is clearly and coherently heard in the coming months, especially as we draw closer to assuming the European Presidency, and who is better placed to champion that cause than a robust, cohesive Irish Livestock Exporters Association?
Finally, I must draw the committee’s attention to a range of animal health threats emerging across our near neighbourhood, including epizootic haemorrhagic disease, lumpy skin disease and foot and mouth disease. These diseases are drawing uncomfortably close to our borders. Vigilance, contingency planning and strong co-ordination at both national and EU levels will be key to safeguarding Ireland’s health status and export continuity.
In summary, Ireland’s livestock export trade stands at a crossroads. The sector remains resilient, deeply committed to animal welfare and responsive to legitimate concerns. Yet it now faces compounded challenges - logistical, financial, reputational and regulatory - that threaten its viability. I urge that we continue to approach these issues, not as ideological debates, but as matters requiring evidence, balance and pragmatic co-ordination between the State, industry and our European partners.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for their presence. The livestock trade is very important to all livestock farmers across the country. Otherwise, as the witnesses said, the processors would have it all to themselves, and would lower the price that farmers get when selling their animals. We appreciate what the exporters go through and what they do. As the witnesses said, there are only two points of export, and we are more distant from the market than other countries. Exporters have a lot of things to contend with, including drivers' hours and regulations.
I have a few questions. I ask the witnesses to be brief with the answers, so I can get to the next question. Why do the witnesses believe the live export sector is important for Ireland's farming economy? I ask them to reiterate that point.
Mr. Derek Maxwell:
It creates competition. Since bluetongue came in, there have been more regulations, and the price dropped back rapidly when we had to slow down and step out of the market. It is all supply and demand. When we are there, we are pushing hard, and that will drive the price up rapidly. There can be a difference of €1 per kilo between a week when you are in the market and a week when you are out.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How could Bord Bia give exporters extra support? Would they expect more from Bord Bia?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
Bord Bia currently makes a lot of effort on our behalf and has created a lot of new initiatives. What we could avail of is more support in getting to meet with EU institutions and MEPs. At the moment, we are facing a lot of changes, and the costs we are absorbing are unsustainable. Bord Bia gave us 40% to 45% of a rebate on flights, bills and things like that but we need to open more doors with MEPs and have a stronger voice in Europe. We are an island nation, as Mr. Maxwell said, but we are very much underrepresented at an EU level. We feel that much more robust efforts on our behalf would give us a stronger voice there. We are facing unprecedented change coming from Brussels, in particular, logistical and regulatory changes.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Bord Bia collects a levy and the exporters pay towards that. Exporters would like to get some contribution back from it but for what purpose?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
That is correct. Live exporters feel they are contributing via the Bord Bia levy but not enough is being done for them with this levy. They would like to have some of it returned to help to cover the costs of marketing, advocacy and the general advertising of the business itself.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In what way do exporters feel they have been overlooked or not recognised in past talks with Government bodies and the EU?
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
They have no say when these decisions are taken.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The farmers depend on the exporters to move the cattle to keep the wheel turning. The exporters would like to be more involved in those discussions.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
That is correct. As the industry professionals and as those who are at the forefront of exports and animal welfare for those exports, we feel that decisions are being made by people who are not actively involved in the industry. As a result, exporters are faced with the changes that are brought in without anyone having to talk to them, negotiate with them or even explore the problems that those changes could bring.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
As we have only limited shipping routes and, of course, if there is bad weather, how does this affect live exports? In what way could this be improved?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
We could increase the capacity of the ships. We have limited capacity on the ships and a limited number of spaces available. When there are periods of bad weather or a backlog of general freight, it seems that the general freight takes precedence over livestock to clear the backlog, whereas the livestock is left behind. Leaving the livestock behind creates animal welfare problems that exporters have to contend with but it also creates the added financial burden of those trucks having to return home or not leave in the first place, resulting in extra feeding, extra care and everything else. There is a domino effect, and it knocks on. What should have gone on a Tuesday perhaps does not get away until Thursday. On top of that, the drivers who thought they had a job now have no job. Everything just knocks on. We could perhaps look at increasing the number of spaces on the ship, which would be a positive step forward.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have rising fuel costs in this country. I am sure it is affecting livestock exporters as they go through Europe. Have the exporters made any moves towards looking for extra help with the rising fuel costs?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
We need Government intervention. At this point, the cost of running a livestock vehicle is coming close to €90 per hour for every hour it is on the road. That, in itself, is unsustainable. For a ten-hour journey, that is €900 just on fuel. On top of that, we have road tolls, as does everyone else. We are not saying that livestock exporters are any different but all of those costs have to be added on to the cost of the animals in the first place. We are trying to trade with our EU partners when we are paying so much more on fuel than they are. We are paying so much more on ships than our EU partners. It makes that competitiveness very difficult to reach. It is crippling and if it continues to go the way it is going, it will cause an end to things.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There are proposed changes by the EU in relation to Council Regulation 1/2005. This is a threat to Ireland's future in live exports. Will the witnesses explain how?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
It is a huge threat to the continuance of Irish livestock exports, primarily on two or three of the main points that it wants to change. For example, it is talking about reducing the height between the decks on the trailer to increase more height above the heads. It is classified as a dead air space. At the moment, livestock exporters who are transporting calves are putting calves on three floors. The new heights it is trying to bring in will effectively remove that third floor. The men who are transporting calves will then be limited to transporting two decks of calves and that cost then becomes crippling. It will simply put an end to that trade. It is unsustainable to remove that deck.
On top of that, it is the same for the larger cattle. It is looking to increase that height. If that height increases by too much, you will not be able to raise the roof of the trailer as you will be breaking the 4 m height barrier that lots of company have, which is a problem. It is obviously a problem for the logistics but it is also a problem for police and everything else. It would put an end to that trade. It is also looking to introduce on-board feeding which we think is not really going to work either and will come with a host of problems in itself.
Another huge change it is looking to bring in is the change in the rules. For example, adult cattle can currently travel for a total of 29 hours - a 14-hour journey, one hour of a rest, followed by another 14-hour journey - after which they have to be unloaded into an EU-approved control post, unloaded, fed and rested for 24 hours. The vehicle is then cleaned, sterilised, rebedded and then the cattle are reloaded. It is looking to change that. We have not got exact figures but there is talk at the moment that the maximum journey time could very well be reduced to 22 hours. That would remove quite a large number of the customers that currently exist. For example, the south of Spain or south of Italy would be beyond reach, as would eastern Europe. They would be beyond the reach of Irish exports. Conveniently, they would be within the reach of our main competitors with the EU, particularly Germany, but we would be out of that. It would give them a kind of monopoly on trade going forward. Germany is also one of the biggest pushers of this change.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Our Department and Government need to take heed of this and ensure that it will continue as it is because it will destroy the whole sector.
Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. O’Dochartaigh and Mr. Maxwell for being with us here today and for their very insightful presentations. Everyone here understands the importance of live exports to our economy and to our agricultural industry but, as the witnesses have outlined, no more than many parts of agricultural sector at the moment, there are savage pressures and challenges facing live exports.
In relation to vaccination, Mr. Maxwell spoke about the variability of vaccination when it comes to cattle and calves being sold, and that it is leading to poorer health, particularly poorer respiratory health, in later life. How does he think we should address that? What kind of extra compulsory vaccination plans should we introduce?
We have seen a decrease in our live exports for the past two months as a result of bluetongue. As we are now introducing a bluetongue vaccine, and bluetongue has been reclassified from a category C to a category D or E disease at European level, will that mean that our trade within Europe should go back to where it was? Will the witnesses clarify this? My understanding is that if an animal is vaccinated for bluetongue, it presents the same as if it has had the disease. Will the recategorisation of the disease within Europe address that? Is there any way that it will address the way that, in terms of exports, we are now very unattractive to third countries looking to be BTV-3 free? We have already lost the Chinese market. Do the witnesses think this will go some way to addressing that?
Mr. Derek Maxwell:
I will start with the question relating to respiratory health. What we are looking for is for it to be incentivised through the schemes and to receive the €80. The respiratory vaccine should be mandatory and should not be optional. There should be more awareness raising and a greater push for it to be done going forward. It is a no-brainer. Everyone is pushing for cattle to be antibiotic free and to reduce the use of antibiotics but the only to bring that about is to increase vaccine use. It is simple. I know that it cannot be really made mandatory but it will take a little bit of education to push forward on it.
In relation to bluetongue, I have asked the Department but we do not know yet what is going to happen in July. Meetings are taking place in the middle of April, and we will then know what is going to happen Europe-wide. At the moment, I think the way forward is to vaccinate but I would like to know how they will identify it. When a farmer vaccinates his calves in France, the vet does it. The card is stamped and, once they are stamped, they are marked as vaccinated. Every stamped card can be exported to the market without a PCR test if the animal is vaccinated but it remains to be seen how it will be policed here. There is going to be a lot of discussion on that.
Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Has the recategorisation of the disease already had an impact?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
The recategorisation of the disease would, on the face of it, be a good thing. It would clearly lower it down from a category C to a category D/E disease. There are strong signs coming from the Commission, although not officially as yet, that it may be deregulate altogether, which would be a blessing if it happens. Bluetongue is one of the more interesting diseases in that it is ineradicable. It has been here for thousands of years. In terms of vaccination for that disease, where will that leave us? At the moment, there is no distinguishable vaccination. It is a vaccine and once an animal is vaccinated, not to labour the point or put it too simply, it is virtually impossible to tell by a sero test or anything else whether it is a vaccinated or a contagious animal. That is a problem. There is then the myriad numbers that are involved. Is it BTV-3? Is it BTV-8? Is it BTV-12?
In response to the Senator's question about trading with European counterparts, as it stands, if you have the same serotype as the other nation, you can trade to that nation but if you have a different serotype to that other nation, you cannot. For example, most of the countries that have given a derogation want you to have a vaccine to cover all of the numbers from BTV-1 to BTV-29.
Most of those countries have no BTV disease higher than BTV-12 and there is no vaccine for them, so how do we vaccinate all the way up to BTV-24 when there is no BTV vaccine? The efficacy of the vaccine is still in question. There are very encouraging reports coming from the Netherlands. There are also reports coming from France that are perhaps a little bit concerning, particularly around fertility issues in dairy stock. That may be something that we need to look at.
At the moment, third countries are quite clear: they do not want the disease. Simply because we are unable to distinguish whether the disease is present or if it is there because of the vaccine, third countries are reluctant to trade. There is still manoeuvrability there for the Department and its officials, and for the Minister to perhaps create new stronger trade agreements. There is still scope there where they could do something. On the face of it, taking it simply as what the derogation says, it is a no-go. That is just it.
Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. O'Dochartaigh. It is very much a work in progress. There is a serious lack of clarity in all regards when it comes to bluetongue.
In their addresses, both of the witnesses mentioned the effect of propaganda on live exports. Most of us in this room are involved in agriculture or are from farming backgrounds. The campaign that is being led is not just against live exports, it is against dairy, beef generally and all forms of agriculture. To a certain extent, we let them get away with it. There is almost a reluctance to speak out against these people who are consistently slating our industry. How do the witnesses feel that we could best address this propaganda? Do they think it is something that can be done by us collectively, by politicians, farming organisations and the Department? It is something that we need to be stronger on. For too long we have let so many different voices out there get away with slating our industry and agriculture without coming out against them.
Mr. Derek Maxwell:
We have nothing to hide. We push to do the best we can for our cattle. If anyone wants to go and see the cattle arrive in farms, in whichever country it may be, they would be more than welcome. It is simple: if we do not do a good job, we do not get paid. They are our livelihood. We do nothing to hamper the welfare of the cattle. They get better treatment than ourselves. What we need is to get the right people from those organisations to come and look and to let them see the treatment that the cattle get. I think they do not want to listen or they do not want to hear. They have this idea in their head that everything we do is wrong. I do not know how we could ever change them.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
I agree wholeheartedly. I know that exporters, individually and as an organisation, have sought to reach out to some of the more vocal NGOs, both at home and abroad. On all occasions, it was a flat resounding "No, we have no intention of meeting you; we don't want to talk to you; we are not interested in what you have to say." As every member knows from being a politician, it is very easy to bring the people with you who already agree with you. It is a bit more difficult to bring the people with you who do not.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
It is also very easy to sit down and champion your chosen football team but it is a bit more difficult to sit down and have a conversation with someone from a different county who just beat you in the championship final. This is just what it is with the NGOs. As exporters and as an organisation, we are happy to sit down and have a chat with them. We are happy to hear what they have to say and to address their concerns and allay their fears. They are not so happy to engage. Of course they are very fast to engage via their social media networks-----
Eileen Lynch (Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Absolutely, yes.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. O'Dochartaigh. I need to move on to Deputy Fitzmaurice.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I welcome the witnesses. In fairness to the committee and the secretariat, they asked other large exporters but they were not available. I just want to put that on the record. They did not just choose a few; a number of them were asked but they were not available.
Deputy Lawless and I are going to put our two eight-minute slots together, if that is okay with the Chairman.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will ask seven questions. We will send a copy of them over so that the witnesses can address them. I want them addressed one by one, fairly snappy and fairly quick. I do not anyone to labour over them.
An issue has come to my attention concerning the clearance of cattle going out of the country in some counties. Vets are needed. Vets are needed on St. Patrick's Day, Sundays and on weekends. There are problems in some counties. Has that been encountered and what negotiations have gone on to resolve that? That is the first question.
In regard to the bluetongue situation in relation to livestock, some people say that if you vaccinate cattle some countries may not accept them, no more than the debate that is going on about TB. Could the witnesses clarify that?
Has Bord Bia ever gone with the witnesses to get new clients? I know it was said that it gives a rebate. Has Bord Bia gone with them to get new clients or do they have to do a solo run like a footballer trying to score a point? I want that clarified very clearly.
I have a question about European legislation and the 919 rule, especially in relation to calves. Mr. O'Dochartaigh might need to come in on this. Mr. Maxwell might not be doing that. In terms of the 919 rule, do we need more lairages in Ireland? How are we going to solve the 919 issue? Has any funding been sought from the Department? A Friesian calf was worth €40 or €50 a few years ago. They are worth €300 or €350 now, and maybe more. Have the witnesses looked at flying them?
In regard to exporting to third countries, is it possible to charter a boat? I know that some people do it or the witnesses do it themselves. How available is that? What is the future in that? Are there huge markets there?
What does the export sector look like in the long term, going forward, to third countries and to European countries? Mr. O'Dochartaigh talked about problems in Spain due to distance. How do we address it to get that resolved?
Mr. O'Dochartaigh is involved with the exporters. We do not want to talk about cattle alone but about pigs and sheep as well. What is the future like going forward in that trade? Deputy Lawless is coming in next.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The witnesses are very welcome. In relation to Irish and European legislation and guidelines, do we need larger and additional lairage facilities near Irish ports to ensure greater compliance with time restrictions, journey times and so on?
Will the current bluetongue situation in parts of Europe and now in Ireland be harmful going forward to Irish exports, either through additional restrictions or in terms of market confidence?
What is the current volume of live exports in the sheep and pig trade? Could the witnesses brief the committee in terms of viability? Are there opportunities to explore here? If so, how can we go about doing it? How viable is the market currently? Are there more third country markets for sheep and beef that we as a committee and the Department should be working to explore?
The next question is on the reduction in the suckler herd in the country. What are the implications of that for trade in the live export market and the wider industry?
Fuel costs were touched on already. What is the additional cost per load to the witnesses at the moment? Do they have proposals, as an industry, for the Government in relation to that?
My final question relates to the availability of ships and other vessels. How is that affecting the volume going abroad? How is it affecting labour in the supply chain in terms of truckers and so on? What safeguards do the witnesses think should be in place? Surely it cannot be the case that they are deprioritised at the last minute when they have a load of cattle in a lairage nearby. Is that currently what is happening and what proposals do the witnesses have to correct that?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
There were a lot of questions there together. I do not want to set a precedent on sharing time. We will start immediately with Deputy Lawless's clock once the eight minutes are up.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I meant for Mr. O'Dochartaigh to answer it.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It has been brought to my attention in my county.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
I accept some exporters have come to us to say they had difficulty securing vets at the weekend because one of the ferries is now operating on a Sunday. It is my understanding that the vets are Government employees and therefore it is their rules. I am not really in a position to answer that. I know-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. Let us move on to the next one.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is the ILEA satisfied vets are available to its members when they need to set sail?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
I know they may not be available in all counties at all times during their holidays or weekends. I have heard before that there is difficulty in getting Department vets. It is not just the vet. There are perhaps two vets on site and then there are agricultural officers, AOs, as well. There could be three or four Department officials in your yard on the morning of an export. It is not just as simple as a vet rocking up. There is also an opportunity to clear the cattle the day before they go. That is another option the Department could take, if it chooses to do so. It is my understanding that does not happen an awful lot in Ireland, but it can. It is within the remit to clear cattle the day before and allow them to go the following day. I know people have said they cannot get vets on holidays and there may be difficulties sometimes in getting them on Sundays. I counter that by saying if there were some sort of problem, such as really bad weather or large numbers of cattle standing around for a long time, the vets may be more agreeable.
The bluetongue situation in Europe, particularly regarding export clearances and market confidence, is the same. I reiterate that. There are some countries that are not taking cattle even though they are vaccinated and are refusing to take them because they are not satisfied with the conditions of the vaccine. They are not satisfied with the evidence of the vaccine, its efficacy or the figures coming out for reproduction afterwards. They are not satisfied and some countries-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Could we lose market over there?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
We have already lost one or two countries. I do not think we will lose more, but we have already lost one or two. If we lose any country, it is a problem. One of the countries we lost, from memory, took 26,000 calves last year and 29,000 head of animals in total. It has closed its doors. That is 29,000 cattle that are not going. Those countries are still buying cattle; they are just not buying them from Ireland. That is the difficulty.
The third question was on whether Bord Bia secured any new clients or opened an international market. Bord Bia has on occasion provided customers. It provides them to all the exporters to avail of but whether there is a lead at the end of that or not is another thing. Has Bord Bia accompanied me? I can only speak for me; I have never been accompanied by Bord Bia. Any trade I have brought into the island I have brought in alone. I have never been accompanied.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. Keep going.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
The impact of the current proposed European legislation is that it is crippling. That is the simple answer. I see nothing in the new legislation coming down that will be of any assistance to Ireland in any way. Everything I see coming through is another nail in the coffin. I am not exaggerating when I say that if the new legislation is implemented as drafted, it will end Irish-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Has the ILEA engaged with MEPs?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
We are trying. We are working really hard. I do not want to continually labour the point but I am here in front of the committee today at my own cost, as is Mr. Maxwell. Mr. Maxwell is an exporter; I am not. When I go to Brussels to try to engage with an MEP, first of all, it is who am I? Why should they speak to me? Second, who is covering it?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What are the main legislative barriers Mr. O'Dochartaigh sees coming down the tracks?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Has the ILEA looked at flying the likes of calves, which I touched on?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
One of the exporters has done flights to Spain, which was the subject of a Member's parliamentary question. It was alarming how he got the information so fast but that is another story. It was very successful, although it was done with difficulty. There was reticence on behalf of the State, at some levels, to accommodate it. The animals were not flown from the State. Maybe the exporter did not get the assistance they required at the time, but animals were flown to Libya. It was extremely successful. It could not have been successful enough. We had the videos coming live directly from the plane, and sent back here to our own chief vet and deputy chief vet, as fast as it touched the ground.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have that, but let us summarise for the committee because we have to watch the clock or the Chair will stop us. The bottom line on it is Germany is very much of favour of these regulations, which will be crippling to Ireland so we need to get our MEPs on board. Our committee needs to know that. I thank Mr. O'Dochartaigh.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that four?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is that for third countries?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. That is grand.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
On the price of calves domestically and what factors are preventing a greater volume of calves from being exported to European markets, it is simply transport legislation. We then have the two primary lairages in France. When both of those lairages have hit capacity, they are at capacity and that is it. There is now extra shipping going on in the sense that, weather permitting, there is a ship almost every day, so we can get larger volumes out while not overcrowding the lairages. In order to increase the number of head and trucks going out, we would have to find more accommodation for them in France. That is difficult enough.
Mr. Derek Maxwell:
For interest's sake, because we are an island state, up to 20 January, we had a small leniency on the 29-hour rule to get us down to the south of France either to Bourg-en-Bresse or Bordeaux. That is wiped out now. All the trucks have to stop in Cherbourg, but when calves are going we cannot get into Cherbourg. We can go to Poitiers, where the facilities are not as good for the-----
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What would solve it? Give me a solution.
Mr. Derek Maxwell:
We need to get a small bit of a transition. We are talking about 45 minutes from loading. We are being stopped from doing our journey logs for 45 minutes. The ferry journey is 17 hours. The cattle have a rest on the lorry for 17 hours. There has to be some bit of a derogation for us being an island state. There was always leniency. When Australia brings in new regulations, it gives a transition period. We were told on 20 January this rule was being changed, but there is no room. There is not enough lairage space; you are crippled. For instance, tomorrow, there are 24 spaces on Irish Ferries and nine on Brittany Ferries, but there are 20 spaces at Cherbourg to lairage.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
The problem with that, in terms of the island nation, is it needs to have slightly more concern given to it by the Commission. Exporters are curtailed by the 29-hour rule, which was brought in by the Commission, but they are not in control of the weather, a slower-moving vessel or a myriad of things. When the vessel takes longer, their journey has taken longer.
That has reflected poorly then on the length of time that the journey took. On what Mr. Maxwell said, for the sake of 45 minutes, they should be allowed to continue to those lairages in the south of France and Bourg-en-Bresse.
I have to be honest. We are engaging with the Department to see if there is something that we can find there. We hope that will be looked upon favourably and the Department will see the need to allow us to continue onto that.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If we get another round, the witnesses might hold the number they are at, the way they answered the rest of them.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for their opening statements and contributions so far. It is very clear there are a couple of clouds on the horizon. One is the new legislation that may come in, which will cause major difficulties. Mr. Maxwell mentioned that one of the solutions would be a little more flexibility. However, that flexibility obviously will be temporary. What is the longer term solution? Does there need to be more lairage in place? Is the association looking at the three stages on trucks where calves can be put at three different levels? If that goes down to two, one third of capacity will be lost. That is obviously going to be a very major problem. How viable will business be if that happens? Will it be wiped out?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
If the third of deck of calves is removed from the trailer, in my considered opinion, calf exports will be finished. Under the current system of transporting calves by road, without an alternative method of transport, it would be the end of it. The cost of the shipment is substantial. That cost is based on a livestock vehicle, not what it contains. As it stands, the cost of that vehicle just to be on the ship is divided among the three floors and each individual head of cattle. That would be a natural corollary. If a deck is removed, it would mean taking the entire cost and dividing it over the cost of the two remaining decks. That cost would then be added on the cost to that customer, which would increase the price of thee calves. That would be non-viable. The customer would buy the calves from somewhere else. It would decimate the calf industry.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
What timescale are we looking at for this coming in?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
From what we are being told by the Department - I hope I am reflecting this well - it has already gone through two stages of the parliamentary procedure over there. It is going back to the parliament for a final vote. What way the vote will go is anyone's guess at the moment. There will be a two to three years of a bedding-in process. It would be five years perhaps before that is in place here. It may be slightly sooner or perhaps later.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is not imminent, but it is coming down the track.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
It is imminent enough when some of the transporters are maybe looking at buying a new trailer from Pezzaioli or a company like that. Those trailers cost €170,000 or €180,000. Someone who is minded to buy a new trailer for this industry would need to be watching what is coming down the line.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Going back to vaccines, the witnesses mentioned that with bluetongue, we have lost a number of markets. Are they outside the European Union?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are they markets where there is already bluetongue in the countries concerned?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
No. They may have zones. The issue for them is that each country is entitled to set its own derogations when it comes to buying cattle, as long as it is within the rules of the EU. During their negotiations, those countries were dissatisfied. I do not mean to speak to their country or their veterinary services. From what we can understand, they were dissatisfied with the information they were given by the Commission, particularly around the efficacy of the disease, what serotype the disease was and the information that was provided to them on issues involving fertility. As there were competing stories coming out, there is nothing official from Brussels to say that this vaccine works. Anecdotally from other countries, we know that one of the vaccines is no good. The other one is 50-50 and one seems to have a good result. The feedback coming from some of the member states on the vaccine with the good result is that it has quite a negative impact on fertility. There are issues going on there. That is the reason those two-----
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is not clean-cut, as some would suggest.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
It is not. One of the countries has simply said either prove the animals are the way they are, or it will not take them. That is what it has done, as is its right. One of those countries took 26,000 calves last year and 29,500 animals in total. That door just closed on 29 January.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
On the Minister's announcement that the vaccination will be included in the programmes going forward, does the association consider that to be a solution to anything?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
It is a solution on one side of it. Vaccination is always welcome. Is it a little bit late? I do not know. Questions around the efficacy and productivity of vaccinations are much better levelled at veterinaries, of which I am not one. On the derogations for other member states that we have read, if a country has BTV-3, it can trade with a country which has BTV-3. If that country has BTV-8, it cannot trade with that country. If a country vaccinates using Bultavo 3, which is what we are intending to roll out, that offers no protection at all against BTV-8. Other member states very close to us, and the UK which is not close to us, are experiencing BTV-12 and BTV-8. BTV-8 decimated England. BTV-8 was vaccinated for in France in 2024 and 2025. The Netherlands has BTV-12. How long will it be until we have it? What procedures do we have in place against that? We do not really know. That is the main reason countries have refused to take cattle. Although the vaccination programme is welcomed, and I am sure there are benefits from it, a veterinary would need to give more of an insight into that, as I am not a vet.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Going back to the lairage question, would additional lairage on the Continent assist?
Mr. Derek Maxwell:
It is dependent on location also. It is about getting as far down the road as we can to get to our destination farm. Our second problem is that when we leave Bordeaux, we can make an awful lot of rural farms in Spain within the tachograph time for the truck. If drivers have to leave Poitiers, they are not going to get within nine hours. When they have to leave Poitiers to Italy, it adds three hours to their journey. Their tachograph time will be up and the driver will have to pull in and have cattle sit in the trailer for nine hours while he takes his time off.
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Whose responsibility is it to ensure additional lairage is provided there? Who would be able to make that happen? Is that just a commercial decision in France?
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is it to France's advantage, as a buyer of cattle, to provide that lairage?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
The way we have it in Ireland has been working for decades with no issues. The control post in Bordeaux has served Ireland exceptionally well for more than 20 years. The one in Bourg-en-Bresse has done likewise for 26 years, without incident and without as much as a dead animal. That is quite a record that there could be truck after truck going into the same dwelling, week in and week out and year after year, without a single incident, not one. The animals are extremely well cared for. For Irish exporters to be able to get to two those control ports is, from an animal health and welfare point of view, fundamental and vital. To make them go into lairage before that, for example, in Cherbourg where they are now, increases the length of time the animal will be in the trailer until the next stop over the next leg of journey. The effect of that is more tired and more hungry animals. To lairage the animal the second time going down the road, the driver is introducing another onload and reload and perhaps other pathogens. They do not need to be in that lairage. The best thing for Irish exports is to leave it as it is and allow Irish exporters to get to Bordeaux and Burgen-en-Bresse. From there, they can hit their customers in Italy well within their legal permitted driving time and well within the legal permitted maximum journey time by the EU. The same applies as regards Spain and Portugal.
It is the same in Poland, Romania and Bulgaria. They can reach all of those destinations perfectly legally, in terms of the roads structure-----
Martin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
With healthy animals.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I need to move on to Deputy Cleere but before I do, I want to clarify one or two points. Mr. O'Dochartaigh is talking about a change in regulations which would increase the height of, or the amount of space on, a lorry.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is he basing that on losing a certain volume or number of calves?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is he basing his figures on the price of a calf from a couple of years ago or the price today? If one goes to any mart, one will see that the calf price has gone up dramatically over the last year, so the value of a load is much higher now than what it was a year ago. Are the economics of it based on current or past calf prices?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, but there would be a significant difference this year.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
Yes, there would be a significant difference this year but that price could well fall back before the end of the year. Regardless of the cost of the calves, the cost of the ferry remains the same. When you are taking the costs of the calves and one third of that load is taken away, the cost of the transport is the same regardless of the cost of the calf. If it costs €10,000 in transport, for example, for three decks of calves, it will still cost €10,000 for two decks of calves, regardless of the price of the calves that are in the trailer. That is the issue. They are losing one third of their capacity and the cost of that third is then added on to the other two thirds.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
On the question of losing one third of a load, it is proposed that the height be increased. Is it not possible for the trailer to be increased in size? There could be an absolute maximum on the size of the trailer but you would still be able to take three decks on the trailer.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
The largest calf market available to Irish exporters is the Netherlands, which is buying, on average, 85,000 calves per year. The maximum height limit for a vehicle in the Netherlands to travel on the highway is 4 m. That is it because there are quite a lot of bridges in the country that would decapitate the truck. Outside of the bridges, anything higher is in violation of the rules so the police can, and will, penalise any vehicle that is driving with its roof off.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The height of a truck is based on the lowest bridges.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is the Irish Livestock Exporters Association pushing that at the moment? Could three decks be fitted under the new conditions?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
With the new conditions-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The trucks are 4 m at the moment.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank our guests for coming in. My questions are not directed to anyone in particular and the witnesses can jump in whenever they want. We will try to cover as much ground as we can in the eight minutes available. Is there a maximum journey time permitted for live exports? How is compliance with that monitored?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
There are two genres of live exports and one is calves. Calves have a maximum journey time of 19 hours under current EU rules. That is broken up, with a first move of nine hours. So, nine hours into that journey, there is a stop for an hour to provide food or water and some rest and then the journey continues for a maximum of nine hours, at which stage the calves have to either be at their final destination or taken into another control post where they are unloaded and rested for 24 hours. For heavier cattle, sheep or pigs, the maximum journey time is 29 hours, broken up into 14 hours, one hour for rest and water and then the final 14 hours. Again, they must be at their final destination or put into a control post to be rested and fed.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are there any independent inspections at ports before animals leave Ireland? Would the witnesses be aware of many breaches of the rules?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
There are independent inspections. For example, when the trucks are being loaded in the yards in the morning, the trucks are inspected for roadworthiness, obviously, but also that they are cleaned and sterilised inside, there is adequate bedding and drinking water on board, that their tanks are filled and that they have forced ventilation which is working. The trucks are also checked for capacity, that there is enough space inside the vehicle as per EU rules to contain the animals that they are transporting. The driver is also checked as well. When the truck goes to the port, those same checks will take place at a departmental installation at the port.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Are they also checked in the arrival country?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
When they arrive into France, for example, and they go into the control ports there, the animals are offloaded into a shed, put into individual pens and veterinary inspectors will arrive there. They will control the cattle and, if necessary, control the vehicle and driver as well.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Fuel costs are obviously very topical at the moment, given what has happened in the last few weeks. What kind of impact is that having on the business?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
At the moment, the guys are having to continue because they have no other option. They must go on but the costs have gone over €50 per hour. A large vehicle like that, hauling that sort of cargo, is burning about 35 litres per hour. Obviously, at €1 per litre of diesel, that was €35 per hour but we are at over €2 per litre now. It is almost at €90 per hour and if that gets any higher, we are going to have to look at other options.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In terms of economic and market considerations, what proportion of Irish cattle, sheep and pigs are exported live versus processed domestically? How has that changed over the last five years? Have the witnesses seen much of a trend change or is it pretty much the same as it was? I do not need the exact figures, just-----
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Would it be mostly cattle?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay, I understand.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
Irish exports were down slightly last year in comparison with the previous year. That was mostly to do with prices. Because the disease was spreading through the Continent last year, there was a bigger demand for Irish cattle but those cattle came at a premium price. Those who were really after the cattle continued to buy but those who were a bit more concerned with market value did not buy so many. The margin of being up and down last year was minimal. We still put almost 400,000 head away so there is still a strong demand for Irish cattle, particularly premium cattle. There are strong existing markets for them and exporters are constantly opening up new markets in third countries, which is to be welcomed.
The North was an interesting market. The value of exports into the North last year was €93 million but it closed this year because of the prevalence of bovine tuberculosis. Thankfully, through good negotiations on the part of our Department of agriculture, Bord Bia and, to a lesser extent, the Irish Livestock Exporters Association, we were able to get that market reopened, which was very welcome. It was crippled early in the year but €93 million is a considerable sum of money.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How would Ireland's live exports policy compare with other EU states in terms of welfare standards, monitoring and so forth?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
We are also very vigilant in terms of drivers. The drivers are second to none and are really dedicated to their job. All of the vehicles meet EU standards. Changes are made to vehicles prior to being told by the EU or the Department to make them. The modernisation of all of our export yards was done prior to being instructed to do so by the EU. In terms of animal quality, the animal health and welfare standards met by Irish livestock exporters really are second to none. We would rank above other major exporters like Denmark, the Netherlands or Germany. Ireland could rival any of them in terms of drivers, vehicles or the welfare procedures for the animals themselves.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
In terms of live export practices, I know the witnesses are individual in terms of their own entities, but are there many live exporters in the Irish market?
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Could a reduction in live exports strengthen domestic processing jobs?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
No. Livestock exports are fundamental in creating market viability because, as we could see at the beginning of this year, whenever bluetongue, or the fear of it, started to spread throughout the nation, on 29 January or whatever, live exports stopped because we could not get certs to go anywhere. Walk-on ships going into third countries stopped immediately. When those ships and the viability of that market stopped immediately, and it did stop immediately, within days the factories slashed their prices. When I last looked I saw that the kill price for beef was back 40 cent or 45 cent per kilo. That is evidence of the livestock exporters stepping out of that market. Once they come back into the market, however, that price should recover. The factories took advantage of that, which is the nature of their business. I do not complain about that, but it just shows the importance of livestock exporters to give farmers an option. That is what I mean.
Peter Cleere (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Perfect. My time is up so I will pass on to the next speaker. I thank the witnesses.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I understand Mr. O'Dochartaigh has been appointed by the Irish Livestock Exporters Association. Are all the 22 livestock exporters members of his association?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
How many are?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there a reason for that? There may not be. It may be just choice.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is grand, but it is interesting there is a collective, which is important.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Therefore, the other thing I would like to know is-----
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
No different from politicians.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Excuse me. I want to go through some comments and then I will ask the witnesses a few questions.
We know that live animal exports from Ireland were worth an estimated €480 million in 2025, up 14% when compared with the previous year. That information comes from the Bord Bia Export Performance and Prospects 2025-26 report, so we are dealing with facts here. That is particularly interesting. The report was published in January 2026 so it is up to speed and relevant. It shows that cattle exports make up 80% of the total value of the live animal trade, at €390 million, which is a very substantial amount of money. The overall total also included the export of live pigs to Northern Ireland, worth €85 million, along with the sheep sent to mainland Europe. We know from this report, which contains the latest, most hot-off-the-press figures, that the number of live cattle exported for 2025, as confirmed, stood at around 380,000 head. That is very similar to the 2024 figure, so there is a steady and consistent level of business. That is an important point to make.
Bord Bia warned in its outlook of this sector that there are "several headwinds on the horizon" when it comes to live exports, including "Proposed changes to EU transport legislation around journey times, feeding intervals, age at transport and space allowances" that "will create challenges in the short to medium term for the unweaned calf trade in particular". Will the witnesses comment on just that segment first?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
That is what I was alluding to: the height requirements. Mr. Chairman questioned me over that. Currently, calves are 45 kg, they are onto three decks of the trailer and, despite what some people claim, they are fed on the farm before they are loaded. They are then fed on the ferry a dry food that was specially created for them to provide essential nutrients and vitamins, totally bypassing the system they needed to get the energy into them. That goes onto three decks. This height increase the Commission talks about bringing in is therefore the height increase on each floor. When that is removed that height is gone. That is what the Commission means by that.
As regards the feeding system, the Commission is looking for calves to be fed after nine hours of transport. It will allow the boat journey to be considered as a rest period for adult cattle, but it will not be a rest period for calves, so the calves have to be fed after nine hours. We currently feed the animals the dry matter on the ferry, but the Commission is talking about introducing a milking system into the trailer.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
These are the feeding intervals.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
Yes. As regards the feeding intervals, the animals must be fed after nine hours. We will feed them in the yard, nine hours later we will feed them milk on the ferry, nine hours later we will feed them again, and then there is the lairage in France. The lairage is currently 15 hours. We feed them again after another nine hours, and then on the road we feed them again.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is my understanding of that. We are of course talking about the unweaned calf trade, which is a very significant trade in itself.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I want to stick to the Bord Bia report and facts rather than conjecture. "The current relative price point of Irish animals is impacting competitiveness", the report states. Do the witnesses agree with that in terms of the impact and the categories of livestock? There are various categories of livestock, of course. I ask the witnesses to talk to me about competitiveness and how it will affect the trade.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I know it is obvious but I want the witnesses to articulate it here for the committee. There are people listening in and they need to understand it.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
Every added cost that is put into the animal now will have to be added on to the actual quality of the product when it will be sold. The result of that increase in the cost of the animal is an animal being more expensive for the buyer. If the animal is made too expensive for the buyer, he will simply buy the animal elsewhere. Whether or not we like the language, this is a commodity, so-----
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It impacts cost.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
This Bord Bia report goes on to describe the short-term outlook as remaining "broadly positive" due to "tighter cattle supplies in Northern Ireland and ... [the] demand for Irish cattle in established export markets". It is pretty buoyant and confident. That is what Bord Bia says. What is the witnesses' view on that in the short term?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We take it from that there is a strong demand, so it is positive.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have a few obstacles we need to overcome.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The witnesses might set out in three sentences their level of engagement with the Department. Mr. O'Dochartaigh pulled back there-----
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----so maybe the engagement is not good-----
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
-----but I ask the witnesses to tell us briefly about their engagement with the Department. Then I want to go on and I want them to tell me and this committee their level of engagement with the Commission and how positive it is. Then I want to finish with one line: I want them to tell me the three key asks they are making of this committee.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is good to hear.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
By and large, yes. It is like any other industry. There are difficulties to be overcome. The Department has a job to do, and its job at the end of the day is to ensure that rules are complied with on one side and, on the other side, that it is able to create conditions where animals can be traded with other companies while staying within the confines of the EU. The Department has a precarious position and, in general, and in all fairness to it, it does a very good job of it.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The witnesses' engagement with the Commission and the three asks.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
The engagement with the Commission is positive to a degree. It is harder to get to because we are a relatively new organisation in that the live exporters have really only started to congeal since about 2019 and, as the Senator has rightly pointed out, three or four of them are still-----
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
"Congeal" is a great word, is it not, in this sector?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
It is one of those fits-all words. We are trying and we reach out to others who feel, for whatever reason, aggrieved or not able to join at this time. They are always welcome. There is no impediment to their joining up. We go to the Commission often through the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. We have great relationships there, and if and when it is needed, we will go directly to the Commission. When I have gone to the Commission before I have found it to be accommodating.
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Finally, and with your indulgence, Chair, what are the asks? What are the witnesses asking us here today?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
We are asking the committee to engage at all levels to ensure Ireland remains competitive. Our island nation, and I know this is something that is probably bludgeoned to death every time any committee comes in, does need to be looked after. As we are able to sit here now, we can sell excellent cattle at a greater cost than a lot of our neighbours. However, one thing that would prevent us from doing that is changes to Article No. 1/2005 because that would make the job non-viable. It simply could not be done. It would render all other efforts into live vessels, and getting live vessels to deliver cattle to Italy is near impossible. It could be done, but at what cost?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes, at what cost.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
Then we are looking at alternative methods that are in the pipeline and people are working on. We have some ground to cover there, in terms of both the exporters themselves and the Department. There are lots of new ideas floating around and it is a wee bit scary. The biggest threat to us is changes to Article No. 1/2005.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for coming in. I come to the committee as a farmer as well and want to say how important the export business is to this country. Some people in the country have different views that if we had fewer exports, there would be cheaper beef on the market and on the shelves. I do not believe that for one minute. I try to tell them that and I think they know that themselves now. I just wanted to say that you can see it.
The price of cattle is set in this country by the number of cattle that are wanted by the boys who buy them for export. Whether you are in Carlow of a Monday or Bandon, Skibbereen or anywhere else in the country, you can see that yourself. You can see and notice a difference when we have bad weather and are not exporting calves that there is a change in the calf market. This year is different from any other year because calves have been a good trade for the whole year. I have never seen such a high quality of calves as this year compared with the past seven or eight years in any mart I have been to. Some will argue that milk being cheaper now means calves are being fed better. It does not matter. I am just making that point and I commend everybody who is showing calves at the moment. I compliment them on the quality of calves they are producing. Thank God they are getting a good return for the investment and work they are putting into them.
That leads us on to talk about transport lorries with three decks. I would love to know who came up with the idea, and how many in a room came up with the idea, that there should be two floors rather than three floors on a lorry, and the height restrictions. The minute you feed a calf, the calf sits down and snores. I have been feeding calves since I was a little fella and the biggest job we have in the evening with some of the calves is to get them up to drink because they are still asleep. My point is that there is room for debate in all of this and those people who are bringing this idea need to come down on the ground and look at calves. Research is being done by Teagasc on feeding calves once per day in a 24-hour period. The research is being done to see if there is any stress on the calf and it is proving there is no stress. I am just making that point.
I am getting away from what we want to discuss here today, which is that our priority in this country is to ensure our senior officials who are dealing with this issue in the Department of agriculture are hands-on. Not every cattle dealer will agree. Of course they will not. They are watching their own patch the whole time, the same as us as politicians. The point I am making is that cattle dealers are all doing the one thing, which is exporting and looking for new buyers out on the Continent, and that is the most important thing. It is about getting cattle from A to B, to the highest standards we can get from an animal welfare point of view, but within reason. That is the most important thing.
The second most important thing is the vaccination of weanlings, especially. If we can come out earlier in the year and encourage farmers to do that through advertising, it would be a great boost for everybody. The witnesses came out and were the very people who went into marts and said they would not buy cattle unless they had been vaccinated. To be fair, that is all right. We will leave that aside and I will not get into an argument with the witnesses over that. I ask that they come out earlier in the year to say that. I do not have any problem with vaccination. It is important. I know we have a scheme in this country where you get compensated for vaccinations as well. It was reduced a bit but that is neither here nor there. It was a very good scheme. It is still there and it is a matter of making sure we put it in place and that all cattle are vaccinated.
That brings me to the most fearful thing at all, which is bluetongue. We need co-operation and to work with each other to know what will happen. Vaccination is being rolled out and compensation is being given. A lot of cows are in calf at the moment and cannot be injected. We meet any requirements we have to meet because that is so important to our country. You never miss the water until the well runs dry. You will not miss what exporting will do unless it stops. If the witnesses do not mind me saying so, it would be a total disaster for this country if the exports stopped in the morning because there has been a huge change in this country over the past 20 years. Look at the number of cows that are in this country. There is only so much grazing block, so a lot of the boys with a larger number of cows sell their calves immediately. There are a lot of people still out there rearing calves, although there are not as many as there were. There are new people back on the market this year rearing calves. They had not reared them for many years because of the price of cattle. That will change again and when it does, if we did not have an export market for the calves, we would be in serious trouble.
That is enough about calves. Now we will go onto weanlings. It is the very same thing with them and with the heavier cattle, sheep and pigs. We are an island that produces a lot of stock. I am not saying that as a farmer, because the witnesses would accuse me of blowing up my own industry, but they are saying that people on the Continent, if they have a choice, will buy Irish cattle because of their quality, the exceptional land we have and the taste of the meat as the end result. They say you can taste the difference. It is like how nearly the whole world looks in awe at how Aidan O'Brien is able to train horses, and an awful lot of it goes back to what is in the ground that nurtures the horse. That is what they talk about in this country, whether it is true or not. The bottom line is they cannot beat it.
The point I am trying to make is that if there are questions or asks of this committee to talk to the Department of agriculture, that needs to be done. What I will be asking is that we be shown us as a committee why they do not want three layers on a calf lorry. That is my opinion. I have seen through the years that there are fans and everything on the lorries. You can see them. A person could sleep on one of the lorries that the calves go over on. I am saying that very clearly. The trailers are comfortable for calves. How will we prove this for the calf? We could stop a lorry on the road and look into it and all of the calves will be sleeping. There might be one calf standing up and that is all. She will get up to yawn and sit back down again. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. There needs to be common sense here; that is all we need to say. There are a lot of people out there who are against exporting of cattle or putting them on a lorry and say the calves are stressed. That is grand; they are entitled to their opinion. The people like us, however, who are producing the cattle for export need to have our say to ensure we can prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that during the transport of cattle they are in no way being ill-treated.
Is there any country that we have gone into with cattle-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It will be a short answer.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Yes. Is there any country we have gone into with cattle that would not meet the standards we would want as producers of the cattle going over? No. I thank the witnesses. Will there be another round?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Thank you. Yes, will we do four minutes each with the same rota. Deputy Healy-Rae is next.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Maybe we could come back to those questions.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I think it is important that-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Deputy Healy-Rae will have four minutes so Deputy Lawless will be on in four minutes' time.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the Chair.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Senator Boyhan should have mentioned his brother Edward, who is involved in the cattle business.
He has heard of Edward, has he not?
Victor Boyhan (Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is not a declaration of interest that I have to declare.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
This is one of the most advantageous meetings this committee has had, both from the facts emerging here and the value of live exports and the part it plays in our production of cattle, sheep and pigs here in the country; it is vital. We would be at the mercy of the processors and the factories or whatever, if we did not have the livestock market operating as it is.
I want to ask a few quick questions. Is the ILEA getting any subsidy or help at all from the Government, the Department or anyone? No. In that regard, these rules being brought in must be fought by the Minister for agriculture and the Department to help these people. Did the witnesses say it was 31 or 32 operators?
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That is not even one for each of the Twenty-six Counties. It is absolutely vital that this livestock trade continue, unimpeded in any way by any begrudgers or by any of these activists who go out of their way to hurt farmers.
As regards the removal of the third layer of calves from lorries, and considering the fact we are the furthest away, the Department needs to step in. If there are layers needed, the association must highlight it to us, the Department and the Minister to ensure it will always operate. We need the witnesses, because we would be at the mercy of the factories if it were not for them. We know when there are storms on the sea and they cannot travel, and when we are around the mart selling calves and they, the buyers, are missing, we go home fairly small in the evening with hardly nothing; that is the truth. We really dependent on them.
If there is anything we can do as elected representatives, the witnesses must ask and get us involved, and not when the thing is hurt or damaged. However, we need to act on this third thing right away. We as a committee must write to the Minister for agriculture and the Department to highlight what we have learned here today and to iterate how much we depend on these operators here. We know there are other operators that would have been here today but were otherwise taken up. However, we appreciate the witnesses imparting their knowledge and outlining it here for us, because I can see they know every aspect of this. From injecting a calf and putting it on the lorry to putting the driver behind the wheel, they know every cog in the wheel that has to turn before the calves are landed at their destination, and we appreciate that.
It is so important that the exporters keep operating. Like I said, fellas would go home with fairly low pockets, more often than not, if we did not have the livestock trade. To hell with the begrudgers and the people who are trying to stop the live trade. The likes of Deputy Aird and myself and whoever else, as farmers, we know what it means around the marts in Kenmare, Castleisland, Cahersiveen or Skibbereen or wherever it is. The exporters are the difference between farmers surviving or not, and we appreciate them very much.
Any time the witnesses wish to come in again, we will always be there to ask the Chairman and to help them.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
The live export trade is fundamentally important, and it is very clear from the witnesses' contributions today how pivotal that export trade is. We have all seen the documentary on television regarding the beef trade and how tightly it is controlled and so on, but the actual antidote to that is the live export trade.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It is fundamentally important, and without live export trade, farmers right across the country are reliant on the price of a small number of producers; that is the truth of it, and that is how important this is. I see that in marts in Mayo, in Ballinrobe, in Balla and in many other parts of the country. I second Deputy Healy-Rae's proposal to write to the Department and the Minister regarding the importance of live exports, and what is coming down the tracks with all the different types of regulation that, according to our witnesses, will cripple the trade.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
To be helpful, it relates to a COM that would have been there maybe a year and a half or two years ago. If we go back, we can revisit that COM and make a submission on it. If the Deputies write to the committee, we can put that together.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We also need to hear from our MEPs on this. Live exports are very important to the rural economy, and our MEPs need to be fighting for the export trade and farmers across the country.
I have several questions, as does Deputy Fitzmaurice. In the brief time we have left, could the witnesses come back to those questions, please?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
With the export of sheep and pigs to the Continent, in the main cases, the export of pigs onto the EU mainland is predominantly breeding stock. There is some other stock going out. It is not as high as it would be to the North, but it does go there.
The sheep trade was and is a good trade. Last year, it suffered slightly for two main reasons, one of which is that the price of sheep in Ireland was good for farmers here. It was driven by the export of sheep from previous years, which helped to drive up the price of sheep at home last year. The domestic price of sheep was good, which then made the cost of exporters buying those sheep to try to sell them into Europe non-competitive. That was coupled with the fact that the Eid festival was very early last year, and that held back many ram lambs. Our lambing season was too late to supply that meat, so they were back a little, but it will come around again.
A couple of years ago, we opened a new market which was very exciting for us. We sent 5,000 sheep to Azerbaijan, who loved the sheep and have been on regularly since then looking for more. It is difficult to get them transported there, but not impossible - we have done it before, and it is an exciting opportunity. From there, who knows where we can go. There is a strong demand for Irish sheep, but price is currently the thing that is a bit shaky.
It is the same with third country options for sheep and pigs - there are such options. There is currently a large interest from an African buyer. That would have to be done with a vessel-----
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
And it is over a million sheep. That would be some job if we could get it, but first we would have to secure ourselves one million ram lambs. That would be an excellent job.
We could certainly go out and corner the job. We have the expertise to do it and we could organise a ship, but we just might struggle to get the one million sheep. That could be our problem.
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Do the witnesses need the one million to make it viable?
Paul Lawless (Mayo, Aontú)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Have the consequences of the decline in the suckler herd been an issue?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank Mr. O'Dochartaigh.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I was not going to start off on this but I will because the witnesses mentioned that suckler farmers need subsidies. On the suckler farmers, there are over 200,000 right, good, genuine suckling cows gone out of the system in this country. The finest of stock men were involved. A lot of them are now in dairying; I have no problem with who goes into dairying but the problem was they could not justify the work they were putting in for the end result they were getting for their weanling. How many would you talk to today who would have stayed in the business if they knew the price of a weanling was going to be where it is today, which is where it should be? The price of the weanling would not be where it is today if it were not for the exports markets we have. We will leave it at that because I do not know what we can do now to get those people back in business. Are we ever going to see the suckler cow sector grow? I do not know.
I would be remiss of me not to mention the Friesian dairy cow heifers that were exported to Third World countries through Bóthar. I wanted to mention that. The Irish sent those heifers over to those countries, and we can see the benefits. I often saw pictures and videos where they would go into a community and feed a couple of families with milk. I acknowledge the people who were involved in organising all that.
To go back to what we are here to talk about today, my concerned, which is coming up more often, is that the EU makes rules that suit other countries but do not suit this country. Before we were net contributors to the EU, we were maybe not in as strong a position as we are now to say, "Stop, that does not suit us". We are an exporting nation. We have to export our cattle. We are doing it in the best way possible and complying with all the rules that are there. It is a step too far, however, when A, B or C rules are brought into it. I am just making the point.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We have to make sure we stand up and be counted and say to the EU that we are not allowing this to happen.
My argument is that wherever and whenever it starts out in Europe, that is the time our representatives should be in there to say, "Stop, that does not suit us". Somebody just decided that we will take one floor out of a lorry with no backup reason. It is not good enough to do that, in my opinion. Come with the statistics, show us what the reason is and if that is the case, we will do it. It is the very same with any welfare issue. I am all for animal welfare and so is everybody else. I do not know a farmer who does not look after his cattle. How many times have I said it? How many times did it happen to my own mother - the Lord have mercy on her - when we would be told, "Bring that calf into the back kitchen". The red light outside may not have been working, or something like that. What was that all for? It was to keep the calf alive. How many houses did we go into and see newborn lambs in beside the fire? Why? It was to keep them alive. This is not a cost. It is something that is built into you. It runs in your veins. There are people who are genuinely out to upset the whole industry and who do not appreciate the work and commitment that go into animal husbandry.
I know there have been cases. I saw cases where lads hit a calf and it is wrong but, then, you go in to get a calf up and she lets fly at you. Did anyone here get a kick from a calf? I will say one thing; it is one of the worst things that can happen to you. Whatever way the way they do it, it is awful. I am only making the point. I am not making any excuses because I have no time for it. I even see it when I go into a mart myself. I would say to a person, "Go easy on that calf", when people are going against you.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That kitchen with the lambs is our kitchen at home.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Would the Chairman disagree with me? He does not. That is my point. I am passionate about what I am saying and that is why I wish the witnesses well.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We need to move on.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If there is anything we can do, I hope we can do it because we need to keep the live export business going.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I have one or two quick questions before we finish up. I ask the witnesses to bear with me for one minute. I want to try to pin down the availability of vets when the trucks are travelling. There is a vet when they are going onto the vessel. Is there somebody who travels with them, and is there a vet at the receiving end when they arrive into an EU state or a non-EU state?
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
There would be veterinary inspections prior to boarding the ship. On occasion, when the trucks are loaded onto the ship and chained down to become one with the ship, there is often another final vet check taken to ensure ventilation is provided, the water is turned on and there is enough space for the vehicles and everything. Then they will be checked again. There is often a Department vet on the ship but that is not mandatory. That does not always happen but they do it on occasion. It is crucial, too. It should be noted that the drivers themselves pay particular attention during the journey. They will visit the deck three or four times during the journey to inspect the cattle and make sure everything is okay. If anything is not okay for any reason, they will deal with it themselves, if they can, and if they cannot, they will make a call. They have done that. They have called to vets here and in France.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Once they arrive at their destination-----
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is there a vet in both EU and non-EU states?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Whose vet is that? Is it a Department vet or a-----
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
It works slightly different in France because we have the Department of agriculture here, which has the vets on its team. In France, you have the direction départmentale de la protection des populations, DDPP, and its vets are more governmental. The job of inspecting cattle in the control posts is done by a private vet authorised by the DDPP. When the private veterinary practice comes and sees an issue that is of concern, it would report that immediately to the DDPP, which would then take over. For the initial animal health check, it is done and recorded by a private veterinary practice. It will report and liaise with the DDPP.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Does Deputy Fitzmaurice want a couple of minutes?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Did the Chair get an answer to the rest of his questions there.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Most of them.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Around the country, is there the market? Ireland was synonymous with the Belgian blue trade going to Italy. The suckler herd has reduced by 250,000. Is that causing a problem? Are there certain markets the witnesses are basically struggling to fill now or are there others in competition? I know when bluetongue was in place, parts of France were stagnant. The cattle could not move. That is changing. Will that make a difference?
What can the committee do? I note the witnesses talked about the legislation in Europe in regard to the transport of sheep, calves, weanlings or bigger cattle. What can we do? First, have the witnesses spoken to the Department or done anything to try to get funding or a pilot scheme for flying calves out?
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Just one second. That is the first thing. Second, how can there be better co-operation overall to make sure we protect the live trade? It is well known that if you do not have a good live trade, you will not have a good dead trade. That is a saying going back the years. What is the witnesses' ask of this committee as regards working together here for the future? What would help? The one thing I would say - and I will probably get criticised for saying it - is that I would like to see more cohesion among all the exporters overall because you have to ring nearly everyone individually. If you are fighting a battle, you want your army with you and not everyone doing their own thing.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
I suppose I could answer the last question first. There is cohesion among the exporters when it comes to dealing with difficulties.
That is why they have nominated people to advocate on their behalf. Could there be more cohesion among them? There absolutely could. That is an effort that is ongoing. We are trying to build the relationships between them. The fact I am here shows there is an element of success and the fact we are able to export as well as we do is another example of the success. It is about letting the businesses at the ring remain at the ring. That is their commercial business which I am not even involved in; it has nothing to do with me. When there are issues or when there are association meetings, they are able to come into those meetings and behave as adults, follow and discuss the agenda and leave alone whatever is not part of the agenda, so they are building an avenue and getting better and there is stronger cohesion than would appear. A lot more goes on than people might assume. One or two exporters have not yet come into the fold. We are hopeful they will and negotiations are ongoing about that.
On approaching the Department for any sort of help to fly calves, at this stage the answer is "No" because it is still very much in its infancy and at the moment the most obvious route for calves is the road. It is working well. It is under threat and we will have to look at and address that, as we are doing, but there are many other things to examine first, such as where to get the plane and where to bring and land it. There are a lot of things for us to take care of before we go to the Department to discuss the plane.
At this juncture, it should be noted there is also the rise of the greener vets. I am not suggesting the Department has them. The Department is very good. I am just saying those greener vets exist and that is perhaps a small problem on the main Continent as well, that there are new vets with new ideas who are not export friendly or farming friendly. It begs the question why they became vets. They are the same people who talk about pet parents and such things. It is mind boggling.
The suckler farmers need to be supported by the Government because that is where exporters are getting the bulk of their quality produce to sell. Suckler farmers are vital and need to be supported at all levels. To support suckler farmers back into the business, I suggest some sort of scheme under which they can be supported so they can have confidence to come into the market. They are frightened. It is not the same rearing a dam or bull of very high standards in terms of vaccination, fertility and breeding. A lot more goes into that animal than one of lesser quality, even an R grade, and people are nervous about stepping forward, investing a lot of money and then finding when they get to the mart or the factory that their animals are treated as being the same quality as R grade ones after a lot of investment.
Exporters give them a valuable way out. We can still supply those markets - thankfully my colleague here and others like him are delivering quality cattle to those markets - but as the sucklers continue to decline, the cattle are declining with them. That may be an advantage to some other organisations, but it is certainly not an advantage for live exports or farming. It should also be pointed out that a lot of effort was made 60 or 70 years ago to get those kinds of genes here from the Continent to produce those kinds of animals. Great work was done by a small handful of individuals and to allow that genetic profile just to disappear would be a crime. Suckler farmers need help and they need it from the Government by any means they can get it.
I think I covered everything the Deputy asked.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I thank the witnesses for their contributions. It was a real eye-opener for many people. Animal welfare is a massive issue. Deputy Aird mentioned the kitchen with the calf or lamb. That was always our kitchen at home where I grew up and it is the same in households right across the country and for our neighbours. I am certain of that. Animal welfare and farming are inter-locked.
There is one other item relating to the earlier meeting to deal with before we wrap up. If members do not have additional contacts today, it is proposed the secretariat will contact the departments of agriculture in Latvia and Lithuania regarding information on their policies to encourage women in farming, the reasons for high female participation in farming and any information or contact details they have for the relevant groups working in that area.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Is it okay if we also send numbers to the committee?
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
If you have them, send them today.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
It might be tomorrow morning.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
We need to finalise the details without delay.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Okay. That is agreed.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
Gabhaim buíochas le gach duine as páirt a ghlacadh
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
I ask TDs and Senators, those engaged with parties and not, to engage with Members here and their party colleagues who are MEPs in Europe to perhaps make it a little easier for us to see them so we can be more effective and get some of the changes stymied. At the moment, reaching MEPs is difficult.
Mr. Lorcan O'Dochartaigh:
Yes. The same people who are pushing data centres and pushing to cover green grass with solar panels are pushing the changes to legislation. It is not all an accident. Therefore we need our MEPs to be a lot more robust and stronger in standing against them. Perhaps the door could be opened for us to meet these people so we can deal with them directly.
Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
I will arrange a meeting with one MEP for you.
Aindrias Moynihan (Cork North-West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source
That concludes the business of the meeting.