Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Wednesday, 25 March 2026
Joint Committee on Social Protection, Rural and Community Development
LEADER Programme and Rural Development: Discussion
2:00 am
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I will address housekeeping matters and read the note on privilege before we begin. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity, by name or in such a way as make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that would be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with such a direction that I might make.
Members attending remotely are reminded of the constitutional requirement that to participate in public meetings they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex. This is due to the constitutional requirement that to participate in public meetings members must be physically present within the confines or place where the Parliament has chosen to sit. In this regard, I will ask any members that are attending remotely via Microsoft Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House complex if they wish to contribute to our meeting. I remind all those in attendance to make sure their mobile phones are switched off or on silent mode.
Today's meeting resumes our discussion of the LEADER programme and the impacts on rural development. In our first meeting we heard from Department and Pobal officials on the policy and administrative elements of the programme. Today at the committee we very much look forward to engaging with the local action group representatives to consider the operation and the wider programme impacts on communities and regions.
At the outset, I want to thank you all for attending to discuss this important matter today. I welcome our witnesses: Mr. Padraic Fingleton, chief executive of the Donegal Local Development Company; Mr. Andrew Ward, joint CEO at the Inishowen Local Development Partnership; Ms Maura Walsh, manager, and Ms Eileen Linehan, assistant manager with IRD Dulhallow; and Ms Roisin Lennon, CEO, and Ms Aileen Duffy, rural development team leader, with the Offaly Local Development Company. I now invite the witnesses to make their opening remarks.
Mr. Padraic Fingleton:
I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the opportunity to speak today about the community and rural development and in particular the delivery of LEADER in County Donegal. Donegal is a large, rural peripheral county with a low population density and strong rural character. While rich in community spirit, natural beauty and culture it faces significant culture challenges common to most rural areas but often more acutely in Donegal due to its location and remoteness. Weak transport links continue to limit access to services, jobs, and economic opportunities, making connectivity a persistent challenge. The county has long faced higher unemployment and lower incomes, although recent gains such as the Atlantic Technological University, ATU, and the growth in fintech, tourism, renewable energy and small enterprises has shown real progress. There is, however, that real dependency on the SME sector and traditional and seasonal industries.
We are also seeing important demographic trends. While the population has grown slightly we continue to experience youth outward migration alongside an ageing population. In many rural areas sustaining communities and services remains a challenge. There are also significant social pressures, including high levels of poverty and social exclusion, and challenges accessing healthcare and other essential services, particularly in remote areas. The defective concrete blocks crisis has also had a profound impact on thousands of households in the county.
Donegal is not to be defined by its challenges. There is strong resilience, leadership and innovation within our communities. Pressures are growing, however, with community organisations asked to do more with fewer volunteers and increasing demands on the responsibilities of community committees.
This sector is vital and needs to be supported and sustained.
If you were to design a rural development programme to respond to these on-the-ground challenges, you would arrive at something very like LEADER. It is community-led, flexible and locally driven. In many ways, we already have the model that works. We just need to ensure it is adequately funded.
Responding to these challenges requires strong inter-agency working, and that is very evident in Donegal. There is a genuine culture of collaboration and DLDC works at the heart of that, supporting communities and enabling local solutions. Our focus has been on building a strong community fabric alongside existing infrastructure, helping communities to attract young families, support employment creation, maintain vital services, look after an ageing population and, overall, improve quality of life in our rural communities.
LEADER, in particular, is vital in this regard. It does not just fund projects. What is unique is that it animates, energises and empowers communities, building the capacity for local action and leadership. It helps ensure no one is left behind. Without active support, the strongest communities will get stronger while others fall further behind. LEADER enables communities to generate local wealth and steer their own development. EU evaluations carried out by both the Commission and Council show that LEADER is cost-effective, high impact and indispensable in rural areas.
An important point is that local development companies, LDCs, do not receive core funding, unlike many other key agencies. LEADER is essential in covering core organisational costs, including the costs of staffing core roles, rent, light and heat, etc. A reduction in LEADER funding impacts not only the communities we serve but also the sustainability of LDCs themselves. Adequate funding allows us to ensure our staff are valued, compensated and retained and that their pay matches that in other agencies.
To show how the LEADER programme comes to life in our area, let me give a practical example: the Wild Atlantic Camp in Creeslough. Since 2013, the project has grown from a small initiative into a tourism destination. This has been supported by LEADER grants, amounting to €400,000, over recent years. At the time of the first investment, Creeslough was largely a pass-through village, with many local businesses having closed during the recession. There were two grants. An initial €200,000 in 2013 supported the construction of an astro-turf pitch, tennis courts and glamping units. In 2017, a further €200,000 supported 12 more glamping villas, helping the camp to transition to a 12-month operating season. Today, the Wild Atlantic Camp sustains 11 full-time jobs, generates over €500,000 in annual income and has transformed Creeslough into a vibrant, year-round destination. Since 2013, ten new businesses have opened in Creeslough. The investment has restored confidence, provided local amenities and given the village a renewed sense of vibrancy. This shows that strategic investment does more than support a single business. It revitalises the local economy, creates jobs, strengthens community networks and restores pride across a village. That is the wider impact of LEADER in communities.
Aligned with this, DLDC has provided comprehensive community development supports to Creeslough Community Association, particularly in strengthening the capacity of the committee. This work has allowed the association to generate funding for a community hub and support the employment of two staff.
I will leave the members with some key messages on delivering LEADER in Donegal along with my colleague Mr. Ward in Inishowen Development Partnership, IDP. LEADER does not just fund; rather, it mobilises, energises and empowers, and keeps Ireland strong. LEADER investment keeps villages vibrant and services within reach. LEADER's power is that communities decide what matters most. LEADER is essential to the sustainability of every LDC.
Mr. Andrew Ward:
I thank the committee and its Cathaoirleach, Deputy John Paul O'Shea, for the opportunity to present today.
The Inishowen Peninsula was one of the original pilot areas for LEADER in 1991. The programme has been at the core of development in Inishowen ever since. LEADER in Inishowen remains a catalyst for social, economic and cultural renewal. The use of the name “Inishowen”, which was rarely used previously but is now commonplace, was part of a pride-of-place initiative under LEADER I.
The seven principles of LEADER are the building blocks of its success, with innovation, partnership, co-operation and the bottom-up approach central to all activities under the programme.
Examples of the LEADER methodology working effectively can be seen in a number of projects. These include the Wild Ireland project, through which Killian McLaughlin was first grant-aided as a teenager for a small animal enclosure for rescued animals in his back garden. Thirteen years later, he was again supported to develop a 23-acre site, which has become one of the main attractions on the Wild Atlantic Way.
Spraoí agus Sport, a multi-award-winning social enterprise, received its first grant from LEADER. It is now nationally recognised, with its co-working hub, digital creative hub, child and family hub, together with its school-age services and, most recently, a community garden. It is host to the €9.5 million Tús Nua rural regeneration project.
After the textile industry disappeared in Inishowen, LEADER ran numerous IT programmes. Malin Head, one of the most remote areas in the country, lost 200 jobs. Forward Emphasis came to LEADER, saw the work being done and had its official launch in the LEADER offices while preparing its Malin Head base. It has provided many more jobs than the 200 originally lost.
Engineering has thrived in recent years in Inishowen. LEADER has provided catalyst funding for a number of start-ups that have grown to become part of the vital economic hub on the peninsula. Carndonagh was identified in 2017 as being among the areas with the fewest manufacturing jobs in the Western Development Commission area. LEADER has grant-aided two engineering companies in the town, trebling employment in one case and adding the machinery necessary for the production of heart stents in the other.
The added value of LEADER in Inishowen has been consistent over the years. After the Good Friday Agreement, a cross-border company was established between four LEADER companies, namely those in Limavady, Coleraine, rural Derry and Inishowen. This delivered Farm Futures, a cross-Border rural development grant programme, in addition to the Celtic Maritime Festival and Football for Peace, which brings together children from Inishowen and children from both nationalist and unionist backgrounds in the North. This was the first time Coleraine, a unionist-majority area, has ever given money towards a cross-Border project. These links are still strong. Inishowen Development Partnership is part of the Causeway Coast and Glens PEACEPLUS programme, alongside an Estonian LEADER group, under a border peoples project. Through these LEADER contacts with rural Derry, we are partners in a €7.6 million healthy active rural communities project and a shared island environmental project.
Through working with farming communities and using LEADER principles, we won the contract to deliver the agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, in Donegal, along with partners Inishowen Farm Innovations, BirdWatch Ireland and the Rivers Trust. The Colmcille Challenge, a transnational co-operation project with Islay, involved male and female teams rowing from Islay to Greencastle, Inishowen, with festivals at both ends. It was one of three of 1,000 transnational projects showcased at a transnational event in Brussels.
The LEADER application process would benefit from a tiered approach, with smaller projects subject to a simpler process. LEADER is often perceived as difficult by comparison with national programmes, and simplification would speed up the process for smaller promoters.
Implementation of the programme has been most constrained by the dwindling budget over the years. Inishowen had a budget of €8.3 million but this has been progressively reduced to €2.6 million, representing a reduction of nearly 70%. An amount equivalent to 2. 5% of the CAP budget is required for a new programme. There is pent-up demand that cannot be met, especially in tourism, enterprise development and the sustainable development of the rural environment.
When evaluating LEADER, it must be remembered that it is more than the sum of its parts. Its methodology is its strength and this has allowed it to pivot to local and specific needs. An example of this is that after the devastating flooding in August 2017, LEADER was able to support local communities, farmers and the Inishowen Rivers Trust in taking ownership in the mitigation of the worst effects of what was the heaviest rainfall in Ireland in 50 years. Through the Inishowen River Guardians programme, Slow the Flow and flood management and river restoration programmes, we were able, through the co-operation measure, to share learnings with other groups.
LEADER is at a crossroads with no guaranteed minimum funding and a reduced CAP proposed for the 2028 to 2034 multi-annual financial framework. We know that the LEADER-CLLD model works and has flexibility built into its DNA, which is vital in supporting rural communities in an uncertain future. We appreciate all the supports we have received through the years from the EU and the Government, and we take pride in how the seeds sown 35 years ago have grown to the benefit of all in our community.
Ms Maura Walsh:
A Chathaoirligh agus a Theachtaí uile, gabhaim buíochas libh as bhur gcuireadh a bheith anseo inniu chun chur síos ar an gclár LEADER. I am the manager of IRD Duhallow and I have been working with LEADER since its inception in 1991. At one time I used to be called the mother of LEADER in Europe and now I think I am the grandmother of LEADER in Europe.
LEADER started on the basis of the Future of Rural Europe policy of Jacques Delors. Like Inishowen, IRD Duhallow was selected as one of the first 17 pilot projects in Ireland. That first programme was a resounding success, especially in Ireland. It was studied and its lessons spread to the pre-accession countries at that time, which were Austria, Finland and Portugal in particular, with Ireland held up by the Commission for getting the programme right and for keeping the essence of LEADER. Mr. Ward spoke about this and I will be brief on it.
The essence of LEADER includes that it has an area-based approach rather than having a county or other political boundary. It is an area of natural development, often spanning over counties, and over countries in some European areas. It is led from the bottom-up at programme and project level. It is driven by a local action group, with the emphasis on "action" and not administration, with the implementation of strategic projects by that local action group. It looks at an integrated approach to development and not silos. We are challenged to be innovative and to try new approaches to address local needs. Networking and co-operation are also factors of LEADER, with groups networking at home, across Europe and outside the EU to share learnings and achieve economies of scale. On the financial side, we have funding from the EU matched nationally. We often forget that it is also matched locally when it goes to communities and businesses. There is a triple matching of the European funding.
To illustrate the long-term sustainability of LEADER, IRD Duhallow did a feasibility study in the first LEADER programme. We wanted to establish a small food training and production hub with four units, aimed at small home bakers who were under threat from the regulations at the time. Ireland did an external evaluation of LEADER and a criticism levelled at us was that marginalised unemployed people and people with social issues were largely excluded from the first LEADER programme. This moved us, as local action groups, to lobby at Government level to access the social inclusion programme, which up to then was mainly in urban areas and cities but not in rural areas. A lot of us were then working with social inclusion as well as with LEADER.
The big innovation in the second LEADER programme was that it covered all of the country. A lot of areas had been excluded and there was a big lobby to get them in. In fairness, it was Jimmy Deenihan, a Kerryman, who was the Minister of State with responsibility for rural development, and a national programme was put in place funded entirely by the Exchequer. The groups that were not selected for the European funding still had LEADER funding nationally but it ran on the very same terms. We hardly knew who was mainstream and who was European.
Duhallow emerged again at the time as one of those selected for the European part of it. We had a few extra rules all right but it was fine. Our food training centre was then modified because a new pressing need had been identified, which was that there was no meals on wheels provision for people living in remote rural areas, with ill-health being a big issue as a result, and there was also rural isolation. The rural social scheme came on board and we integrated both. We expanded and designated some of our units for meals on wheels for rural areas only and these were delivered by rural social scheme workers. Some of the food was also prepared by rural social scheme workers.
A new European policy emerged during Ireland's presidency at that time. This was called the Cork declaration and it proclaimed a living countryside. This addressed a big disquiet in rural Ireland and rural Europe. There was a theory that rural areas should remain untainted by progress and be a retreat or a playground for people from big urban centres. We were not having any of that in Cork. The Cork declaration was put through as a European policy. It gave LEADER a new focus, which was to address quality-of-life issues. Then we looked at providing solutions such as making community spaces more attractive, with playgrounds, parks and walks and upgrading sports halls to community centres. We got rid of the superser heaters at that time. LEADER's economic focus remained but there was recognition that rural Ireland depends on the ability of its people to live locally and commute to and from work, wherever they can find work. This stabilised our rural schools, shops and sports clubs, and it also provided a base for rural transport. At present, the new cry coming from Europe as well as Ireland is the right to remain, which states that young people should have the right to remain and live in their local communities and not be forced into cities or out of the country. This will be our new focus.
By 2008 IRD Duhallow had grown its meals on wheels to more than 30,000 meals a year. We needed a new purpose-built premises. Thankfully, the programme was large enough for this. It ran from 2007 to 2013 but I refer to it as the 2008 to 2014 programme. We had 10% of the CAP Pillar 2 at the time, which gave us decent funding. It enabled us to scale up our community food operation. We had new demand for community catering for communions, confirmations and funerals. We took them out of the pub and into community centres, rather than what had been there previously. We also expanded the roll-out of hot rolls and hot soup into a number of our secondary schools. Last year, with the introduction of the primary school lunches, we took on that challenge and we now provide more than 3,000 primary school hot meal dinners a day. We also state very proudly that all of this food is made from scratch with local produce from local farmers and local suppliers.
This LEADER project has grown through the various LEADER programmes to meet the needs of our region. It employs 72 people and puts out 4,500 meals a day. This is something that could be replicated throughout the country. It is not unique. It is a social enterprise. It has been recognised by the National Lottery good causes awards. We got the community award from the Irish Food Writers Guild this year for the high standard of nutritional food being produced and supplied to schools. Unfortunately, the pared-back LEADER programme will not be able to support the expansion that is required but we will be looking at other programmes.
There are a number of projects like these, which my colleagues have and will outline, which are testament to the success of LEADER. Miles and miles of our walking trails were first developed by LEADER. The outdoor recreation infrastructure scheme is now funding these. We have rural training hubs throughout the country. Sports facilities have been upgraded. We have safe, well-lit local circuit walks that came to prominence during Covid and saved a lot of people from total isolation. These are totally reliant on LEADER to be put in place in rural areas. LEADER has put rural areas on the tourism maps. Small businesses have not only survived but thrived with this support.
LEADER is the pillar programme in our view. It supports the delivery of so many other local development programmes in rural Ireland. It is our firm belief that any financial undermining of this pillar would undoubtedly result in its collapse and the collapse of many other programmes that depend on LEADER to deliver a range of local supports, including those aimed at mental health, migrant supports, social inclusion, environmental, cultural and social programmes such as the social farming programme which is very important, not to mention training, mentoring and the animation we do as part of our work.
We have set up substructures on all of our boards. These are structures that look after issues such as carers, those with disabilities, care and repair, warmer homes, friendly phone call services and community childcare. Many of us operate and run community childcare projects where the market has failed.
For the future, we want to see LEADER remain as a strong pillar of CAP with adequate funding. In our network we have reckoned this to be approximately 2.5% of Irish CAP, or €450 million. That is what is needed to adequately support our rural communities to address their unmet and emerging needs going forward to maintain a living, working and sustainable countryside. The choice of being an independent local action group or operating as part of a local authority should be facilitated as well with fair, open and transparent selection processes that recognise the specific features of LEADER, especially the natural areas of development that often transcend county and political boundaries.
Ms Roisin Lennon:
I thank the committee for its invitation today. Offaly Local Development Company is the local action group for the LEADER programme 2023 to 2027 in County Offaly and, like those of our colleagues, it has operated since 1991. Our company provides a range of integrated supports and interventions that help people live, work and participate fully in their communities. Our LDS creates strong links between a number of national and European initiatives, allowing us to maximise the impact of public funding for those individuals and communities who need it most.
This programme's first approvals took place in May 2024 and to date we have allocated in the region of 50% of our budget and 90% of our claims have been paid out.
My colleagues have already referenced some of what makes the programme work. For us, the nature of the decision-making associated with LEADER ensures that local solutions and opportunities are developed to meet the needs of local communities, enterprises and citizens at whatever stage they are at and not where we are at. Time is spent by front-line staff supporting and guiding applicants through the process, particularly those who may be applying for funding for the first time. There has been a strong emphasis in all of our LDSs to encourage those applicants who have never applied for LEADER before to apply for it, so there is a lot of work in that area. Building trust is a huge area, ensuring communities and enterprises have confidence in the programme while managing expectations of this programme. There is also the commitment of local communities and small enterprises that are willing to invest human, financial and voluntary resources to projects that strengthen the county.
Some key challenges for us have also been mentioned and they include staff retention. The local development sector struggles to compete with public bodies, making it difficult to retain experienced staff. On programme resourcing and funding, there is the decline of LEADER funding over successive programming periods. In 2007, Offaly had €11.5 million. In the current programme we have in the region of €6.2 million, which is not bad. However, this reduction is despite increasing expectations and development needs within rural communities. As Mr. Ward has referenced, smaller projects are the bedrock of our LDS in Offaly and, I am sure, of a number of LDSs around the country. However, they need to be proportionate in terms of the requirements for paperwork, auditing, applications, etc. It is difficult enough to get them to apply in the first place if we do not help them out in that respect.
For the impact of LEADER on the ground I will look at a couple of projects. Through the strategy we aim to ensure the county moves towards a more sustainable future. The work within the LEADER programme is a means to ensure the transition in Offaly is just, supporting those communities, enterprises and citizens most affected. I will start with the example of a placemaking project in Clara, Daingean and Ferbane. For those who do not know those communities, they are three peatland communities in rural Offaly. The placemaking project is a predevelopment initiative through LEADER to build community resilience and strengthen future opportunities for these communities. It explored the development of social enterprise, tourism initiatives, festivals, events and town enhancements that improve public spaces and strengthen community identity. This work is especially important in addressing challenges in the context of regeneration and economic change following the cession of peat production and the county’s transition to a greener future.
The second example is Create Green. This is a training programme developed in response to the realities of the just transition in Offaly and positions the county's creative, food and farming sectors at the centre of sustainable rural development. It provides practical support to these sectors to assist them to reduce their environmental impact and embed sustainable practices into their everyday operations. It has been recognised at European level as a finalist in the EU CAP network Agricultural and Rural Inspiration Awards 2025. Two of the participants have received LEADER funding directly. One is Kevin Dooley of Dooley Wool. It is a family farm-run business, which has been supported by LEADER since 2009, facilitating growth and enabling it to meet the challenges it faces daily. As a participant in the programme, this business is part of a wider local business network that supports businesses that are reviving traditional skills and creating sustainable products. Dooley Wool now produces 100% Irish wool bedding, throws and blankets. Since 2024, in partnership with Donegal Yarns and Magee, it operates a fully traceable wool product on this island. Dooley Wool currently has up to seven jobs, one of which is seasonal, and produces up to 5,000 products per year. This business started in the 1950s with Kevin's father, who has passed away.
Helen Bracken is from Fox Covert Farm, a fifth-generation family farm in Offaly. The farm specialises in 100% natural hemp seed production and its products are stocked in over 25 SuperValu chains, Evergreen health stores and farm shops around Ireland. In 2020, the farm received €25,000 in LEADER funding for marketing and equipment, supporting business development and growth. Currently the farm supports an additional 1.5 jobs with this off-farm development and demonstrates a continued contribution to local employment and rural enterprise in Offaly.
LEADER is a programme that is effective in mobilising community, private and organisational resources to deliver sustainable, economic, environmental and social benefits for rural communities, businesses and citizens of our country. The programme continues to demonstrate a strong multiplier effect, which Ms Walsh has referenced. Public funding allocated to date in Offaly of €2 million has the opportunity to leverage a further €1 million in resources from the private and community sectors. However, if the programme is to continue to be developed with a meaningful impact for communities and enterprises, it will in our view require four key areas, namely, a ring-fenced allocation at EU and national levels for the next programme, adequate resources to support programme delivery, continuity between programming periods, which has been a challenge for us in the past, and sustained investment in the local development sector that delivers this programme on the ground.
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the four local action groups for the contributions. I invite members to discuss, and I remind those participating remotely to use the raised-hand feature and to deselect it after they have spoken. Each member will get seven minutes for back-and-forth questions and answers.
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the witnesses for coming today. It is great to hear about the projects being done across the counties. For my county of Meath, it is disappointing to see that it gets approximately €5.7 million in the 2023-27 programme. That is by a mile the lowest per head of population in the country. Every county is allocated €3 million to start with. All that Meath is allocated on top of that is €2.7 million, with a population of 222,000. For us, that is disappointing. Funding for Offaly County Council fell from €11.5 million for 2007 to 2013 to €6.252 million for this current programme. Has that happened across the board? What was the overall budget between 2007 and 2013 compared with what it is today? Do the witnesses know what it is across the country?
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Was it €250 million from 2007 to 2013?
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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What is it now?
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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Do we know the reasons for that?
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I have a couple of quick questions. I will ask them together so it will give the witnesses a chance to answer. How do they see community groups managing to cover the percentage of matched funding? Are community groups managing to get bridging finance? What interest rates are they paying back?
With costs increasing for building materials and construction costs, there are often price increases from the initial grant application. Are any measures in place to allow for this? Somebody touched on excessive red tape being blamed for the slow drawdown of funds. I came across that a good bit, where so much paperwork was involved. Should there be some kind of criteria where people like the witnesses could tell people at the beginning whether they had a good chance of getting the funding or not, instead of putting them through all the paperwork and then maybe being refused in the end?
Ms Roisin Lennon:
There are a couple of points there. As organisations, we are very conscious of community organisations and their matched funding. Getting 25% matched funding is not easy. Our staff support organisations to think about their projects and staging their projects. If they cannot afford to do the full project in one go, they can have a staged approach to the project. It is flagged early on with our local action group, LAG, and our board that this group may come in again for phase 2 of the same project. This is so the full 25% is not being paid out at the stage of application or approval. That is the first thing.
The second thing, and the Deputy touched on this, is building costs, etc. One of the things that is restricted within the programme is the procurement process under public procurement. You are bound by what you have publicly procured in the programme. The flexibility to change and adapt is restricted by that process. This is the point. The same rules apply to smaller projects with less capacity, potentially. Public procurement rules are applied across the board. We absolutely recognise that is a necessity. However, it restricts the ability to change pricing part way through a programme. You cannot do it. That is the other side of it.
Ms Eileen Linehan:
On the procurement issue, we were not previously allowed to approve projects subject to tendering, although we are on this programme. At least then people know whether the grant will be approved and they go out to tender then. There is a six-month sunset clause on that approval, however, so they only have the six months to do it.
On the administration the Deputy asked about, quite a bit of bureaucracy is attached to the application process and drawing down the grant. It is too stringent. It looks at things like proof that people wrote out seeking five quotes and proof they wrote telling four people they were not successful in getting the tender. All this stuff is looked for and it holds up the payment of the project until all those i's are dotted and t's are crossed. A lot of bureaucracy is attached to it, regardless of the amount of the grant and whether it is €5,000 or €50,000. That can be challenging as well.
On the Deputy's question on whether we can tell communities whether their project will go ahead, we are required to have an independent evaluation committee. Without pre-empting what it evaluates and decides, we have experienced staff who generally know whether the project will go through or not, depending on budget. We of course try our best, with the rules in mind, to let people know what we think about whether it will go through or not and the level of funding that will come up, but there are always going to be shortfalls where things might or might not be approved.
The budget is also a big problem. In Duhallow, we have our whole budget for the five years and certain headings might be €30,000 or €40,000. It is very challenging but we do our best to work with the communities. We now see a cocktail of grant funding happening. They will get a little funding from us for one element and might have to go elsewhere for another element of the project. That has a direct impact on the level-----
Johnny Guirke (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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I am sorry for cutting Ms Linehan off. Is support available for filling out expression of interest forms and application forms? On staff retention, are the organisations allowed, through LEADER, to pay staff what they think will keep them? What are the issues with retaining staff?
Ms Roisin Lennon:
There are two issues. Obviously, we are operating within the budgets of the LEADER programme and whatever they are. There is 25% administration attached to that, which covers staffing, overheads and lots of other things we do in the LEADER programme. That obviously has an implication as to how much we can pay our staff. If we look at the comparisons with other parts of the public sector, our staff are not getting paid the same wages because we do not have the same money, to put it very simply. We endeavour in other ways to support our staff. We are fortunate in that we have not lost staff to other agencies on the LEADER programme because they are passionate about what they do. One of the things in staff retention is the inconsistency between programmes. When a programme finishes, if another one does not start, there is a gap of a year, or two years in this instance under the new programme, where we have to retain staff. That can be challenging.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I welcome everybody. It is great to see the LEADER organisations today. LEADER has been a great friend to us all down through the years. I was a public representative in 1991 when LEADER came. I will take this opportunity to think about Anne Goodwin from Laois. She was taken from us all too soon. She was an absolutely fantastic person who reached out to everybody in County Laois at some time. I will start off by acknowledging that.
I have one question. Will the witnesses point out one measurable outcome from LEADER in their area that clearly would not have happened without that programme?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Creeslough, yes. That is grand. That would not have happened-----
Mr. Padraic Fingleton:
What LEADER allows, and it has a decent tolerance for it but we would like more, is risk. We are constantly coming to our communities to ask them for a bit of innovation, but we have got to match that with a bit of risk tolerance. If people are willing to take a chance and put up some of their money, we have got to be willing to take a bit of a chance with them and back them. How our organisations work is they are community led. Communities are put in the driving seat and it is our job is to get around them and support them. They know best. They have the ideas. They know what is best for their community.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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What proportion of LEADER-funded projects in the organisations' regions are genuinely sustainable after funding ends? How do they track that?
Mr. Padraic Fingleton:
The projects have a commitment over five years that the business itself is still viable. A lot of it comes down to the work in advance of the signing of the contract, where we are stress testing and looking at the budgets, plans, strategic plans and the viability of the whole project. We like to think that the majority, if not all, of the funding we have approved is for businesses and community organisations that are still going five years and beyond. We are finding that what is happening, as in the examples I gave, is we are setting up with one small investment but what that then means to the wider community and other businesses around is it attracts from a tourism point of view. For example, it brings footfall and that encourages others to take that leap of faith and maybe set up a business as well.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Applicants come to us as public representatives. Applicants are on to me consistently about slight delays. What is the single biggest administrative bottleneck? Is it at local or national level, when people come to the organisations to get the funding?
Mr. Padraic Fingleton:
It has a lot of checks. There are over ten checks. When it is compared to other community funding that is out there, it seems a less onerous task to get hold of funding under that other funding. One of the big challenges for us that we see, and we mentioned the word "risk", is funding can go from zero to €200,000.
It is definitely riskier to give out €200,000 than it is to give out a couple of thousand euro. The same rules apply, though, in respect of the documentation needed and the hoops a community organisation needs to go through. Something we would be seeking and constantly looking for is that there would be less onerous requirements for those smaller grants. In some cases, applications for these smaller grants are being made by the smaller organisations as well, and these are the groups that really need the support when making their first LEADER applications.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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What is the average time taken from when an application is made to when the money can be drawn down?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It would be four months, give or take.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Is four months an acceptable time?
Ms Maura Walsh:
I asked some of my colleagues in the south west what they would like before I came here, and one of them pointed out to me that the original LEADER programme had three layers. It went from the Commission to the Department of agriculture to the LEADER group, and then to the community. In 2007, we got our own Department of rural and community development. It was positive and I would not be complaining. It was great, but we then had four layers. The process was still flowing, though, and it went fast. Since 2014, however, we have now had seven layers. Well, we have six and so does Offaly, but the others have seven. It is now going from the Commission to the Department of agriculture to the Department of rural and community development to Pobal to the local authority to the LCDC committee and from there back to Pobal. From there, it goes back to the groups.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is the reason I asked the question. Could we ever imagine in our lives that could happen? Even from the point of view when we got our own Department to deal with it, and now we have this situation. This is why I asked the question. It is important for the public to know that here today.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Are smaller community groups being crowded out by more professional applicants and what is being done to prevent this? If they are not being crowded out, that is grand.
Ms Eileen Linehan:
One of the things that has come up for us over the years is this idea of shovel-ready projects, which is not the ethos of LEADER. In our company, certainly, we do not take that view. We do the closed calls once a year, because we are required to, but we generally have a rolling call. It is not a first-come, first-served basis. We would strategically target going out and working with the communities because LEADER is there to build capacity to get people to come in and apply. Our attitude is that everybody should have the playgrounds or whatever it might be. It should not be a cannibalism thing, where the community that might have a more experienced committee and is quicker off the blocks gets the grant. That is not what LEADER is about.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is not the case. That is grand. I thank Ms Linehan very much.
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Ms Lennon has a comment as well.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I am sorry, Ms Lennon. She is my near neighbour in Offaly. We are always giving out that they are getting more than us. Go ahead.
Ms Roisin Lennon:
Absolutely. Long may it last, that is all I will say. I will give a concrete example of smaller projects. We have 15 projects going to our next evaluation in April. Hopefully, the total sum of money to be allocated will be €278,000. The average amount of the grants is in between €7,000 and €10,000.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Right, so that answers that question. I thank Ms Lennon very much. Which types of rural areas or groups are still not accessing LEADER funding? If there are such groups, then what is the reason?
Mr. Andrew Ward:
First, LEADER is probably one of the last bastions of any hope for the smaller groups. If we look at programmes going back, everything now, it appears to me, has been made more difficult for smaller groups. The difference in LEADER is the staff. Our staff have been there since I have been there basically, since 1998, and they have great experience in working with people and in trying to bring them forward. When we look at the amount of money there now, and this is central to this, and we then look at the groups, what is tending to happen is that groups are shunning LEADER. They are going towards more national funding, which is easier to get and less onerous. I think, though, that LEADER-----
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Could Mr. Ward give us an example please?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Yes. It always was.
Mr. Andrew Ward:
In this programme, it has been the area where we have found it the hardest to get buy-in. Business, environment and tourism have been easier. The community sector is tending to look at programmes that come out. They just appear, and suddenly they may be 100% funded and the paperwork may be easier, and community groups will naturally go for them.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Right. That is a pity, is it not, from the point of view of the ethos of LEADER?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is a huge problem.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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That is great.
Mr. Padraic Fingleton:
To go back to the point about the smaller groups, the beauty of having LEADER within the local development companies is because of all the other programmes it has as well. In particular, there is the SICAP programme. Groups can come and we can offer something of what we call the wraparound or one-stop shop in respect of supports. Some governance supports can come out of SICAP, and it can also help them with a little bit of strategic planning or some policies and procedures and the like. The fear is, as was said earlier, that some communities are getting stronger and very good at filling out the grant applications. A huge role we can play in the community is in ensuring other communities do not get left behind. As I am sure the Deputy is aware, we are finding a lot of the local development companies have that reach into communities and that relationship and trust with them.
On the aspect of struggling with some certain groups, one area for us in Donegal is around theme 3 and environmental section. A solution is more funding in the area of animation, where we will be able to get out, work with communities and encourage them regarding what opportunities are out there to access LEADER funding in that particular area.
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Mr. Fingleton. I call Deputy Pat the Cope Gallagher.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Is my time up?
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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It is.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It is a pity that the Cathaoirleach would not give us a little bit of a minute because we have no clock to go by. I am sorry. Will there be a second round of questions?
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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There will.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach.
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy got nine minutes.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I am not saying that. It is just that the clock is not working, so we do not know.
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I am being very good to the Deputy.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Cathaoirleach for the opportunity. I have a group coming in, thus my request to get in earlier. The presentations were very interesting. It is not only that we listened to the witnesses, but we have their written submissions here for reference. My association with LEADER goes back a long way, as long as some of the other people here. I was the Minister of State in the Department of the Gaeltacht at the time of the pilot projects. I think there were 13 in the country.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That is right. There were all of those projects. I remember very clearly, because all politics is local, that I was anxious to get the Donegal Gaeltacht in, as well as the Galway, Mayo, Cork and Kerry Gaeltachts. We were told we could not get them all in, so we combined them and we got them in, against the wishes of some people at the time. It has worked very well. We cannot forget those who were involved in those pilot projects, because they laid the foundations. The success of those pilot projects resulted in coverage for the whole country. It was beneficial. Ray MacSharry was the European Commissioner at the time and he fully appreciated the problems we had in rural Ireland and the necessity of providing funding. The bottom-up approach was a winner.
I have one or two questions for Mr. Fingleton. How could the programme be simplified? He might say it is simple anyway, but how could it be simplified further for communities seeking funding? What can LEADER do to support weaker or less organised communities? Reference was made to the fact that some communities are better organised than others. Can those weaker or less organised communities get support to prepare their applications?
Mr. Padraic Fingleton:
We have touched on some of these points. We mentioned the responsibility regarding the production of documentation when getting these applications in. We mentioned the difference between grants that can go up to €200,000 and grants sitting around single digits of a couple of thousand euro. There should be a relaxing of the rules for those smaller amounts of money. For the smaller groups, it might be their first time applying and we would be encouraging them to go for only a small amount of money because of their capacity to handle the cash and the project and get going.
You would also be very mindful of the matched funding and that they do not overexpose themselves from the point of view of the requirement to do a significant amount of fundraising or even to borrow money. In some ways, you are trying to ensure that they hold their own. At the same time, however, if both the paperwork and the responsibility are huge, that is an awful deterrent for groups to actually move forward. In some cases, smaller groups would not come to us because of those requirements. There is definitely something there between grants for large sums and those for smaller sums, and having something to distinguish between the two.
There is a great deal of exposure when these audits come in. An audit comes in after a contract is signed and the work is done. Many of the areas the audits drill down into relate to procurement. One would ask why we do not do those audits a little earlier, perhaps at the contract stage. That takes a huge amount of exposure away from a community group, namely not coming in when all the work is done if the area that the audit is really focusing on is procurement. That is something to consider.
There are ten steps involved in LEADER process. When we look at other funding programmes, they do not involve ten steps. I appreciate that we are dealing with EU funding, but in other instances it is Exchequer funding. It should not make a difference if it is EU or Exchequer funding. The EU funding has gone too far out, however, and there needs to be some sort of pull-back and alignment with the Exchequer funding that is available. That would significantly help in the area of LEADER funding and that of community-led funding, which, we feel, is the most important approach in dealing with communities. Again, within all of that, there is procurement and some way of relaxing the rules a bit for smaller projects. Those are a couple of the things we believe are required. I do not think my colleagues have any other suggestions. We are just trying to simplify this, particularly for smaller groups, in order to encourage them to come forward.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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If that is to be done, there is no point in us talking about it here today unless there is a follow through in terms of what the committee can do or who can pursue that by way of simplification. Is the goal to convince Europe?
Mr. Padraic Fingleton:
We have a very strong relationship with the Department in the first instance. Mr. Fintan O'Brien appeared before the committee a couple of weeks ago. We have good engagement and we want to continue with that. As we enter into the next LEADER programme, we really need to get that on the agenda as a co-design or collaborative piece of work and that we really work towards bringing in some of those changes and pushing back hard at Europe. There is some flexibility there. Within certain other EU countries, there might be a little more lenient approach as regards what is required in the context of drawing down funding.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Does Mr. Ward want to come on that?
Mr. Andrew Ward:
I have been involved in LEADER for a long time. What we hear is that every round of LEADER is going to be simpler the next time. It is getting more difficult. If we go back to the LEADER methodology, as I think we should, instead of coming from the top and saying this is how it will be made simple, we need the Department, the development officers and the people who are working on the ground to sit down, like we do with the community groups, go through it step by step and come up with proposals that will work.
Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is the bottom-up approach and I think it is a good idea. Is there any support the committee can give? It is interesting to hear that there are some countries in Europe that have a more simplified process. It should be a common one, like the Common Agricultural Policy, which is the same throughout Europe. There should be a common LEADER as well. I thank the witnesses for their contributions.
Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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Those of us in this room and people outside of it recognise the importance and strengths of the LEADER programme over many years. The community-led approach, the fact it operates on the basis of local knowledge and expertise, the trust with communities and enterprises and the holistic approach that results from programme being under the same roof as many other programmes and schemes are some of its core strengths. Then there is the marriage of social inclusion and community development. Crucially, underpinning it all, are economic diversification and economic development in a rural setting. That is the strength of the programme. However, some of the weaknesses and challenges - I have been outlining them for many years - relating to complexity and the lack of funding have been outlined. I would bring it back to, perhaps, a lack of belief on the part of the Government.
What must be very frustrating for the witnesses - it is very frustrating for me - is that the lack of belief is based on nothing. We see it with the removal of the national programme, the cuts to funding and the added complexity. Deputy Aird has left the room, but I was going to point out very briefly that it was former Minister Phil Hogan, as a member of former Taoiseach Enda Kenny's first Government, who brought in the seven steps as part of the reforms that also abolished town councils, merged local authorities and upended the whole scheme in many respects. It is important that we acknowledge that this has been a long time coming and that it has its origins in 2014.
In that context and in the context of the cuts that have already been discussed, there is another risk coming down the tracks in terms of the negotiations on the budget at European level. The Irish Local Development Network's new name escapes me.
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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It is the Local Development Companies Network, LDCN.
Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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That is it; it will catch on eventually. The European LEADER Association for Rural Development, ELARD, has been advocating, as have individual LEADER companies. How much of a risk is that in the witnesses' view? How dangerous will that be if those negotiations do not succeed? What are the risks and what steps can this committee and we, as public representatives, take to strengthen the hand of the LEADER rural development scheme in Ireland?
Ms Maura Walsh:
For IRD Duhallow, it is about looking at LEADER as being a public good rather than a cost. LEADER is a public good for the smaller groups, the smaller communities and the rural areas whose projects are not shovel ready; they are looking for a new handle for the shovel. They are depending on LEADER. Certainly, policy at Government level will have to look at what investment we are going to put together by means of this method. I am not referring to other methods; I am talking about the amount we need to come up with by means of this method. At network level, we have come up with a figure. We have strategised, broken into down small groups and all the rest. The figure we have put on it is €425 million. Some are looking for €450 million, but €425 million is what we settled on.
Coming back to Deputy McGuinness's point about Meath and this business of €3 million per county. The county is not what LEADER is about. It is not County Cork equals County Leitrim or wherever. It should be per natural area of development. If we are looking at that, we are saying that there should be a minimum of €4 million and then funding per capita on top of that, so you could look at that.
Going back to the point about how we include the groups that are furthest away, I can put my hand on my heart and state that there is no community in Duhallow that has not gotten LEADER funding during the period. We have worked very hard to make sure that happened, but there are communities that have not got funding. Those communities are like the ones I mentioned, such as, for example, carer's groups. It is the communities of interest rather than geographic communities. The environment is a big element. There is a programme that is put together in Ireland that goes to the Commission to be approved, and that is where we need to exert influence. It is in this regard that we look for the committee's help in influencing people.
Fintan O'Brien will be writing that little programme that will go to the Commission, but I hope we will all be inputting to it. I would like to see the animation and capacity-building element of LEADER in it. It used to be a separate element and I would like it to go back to being a separate element again, where you would have an ecologist or environmental officer, somebody that is qualified on our staff. We are good and we are gifted, but we are not that good. You need somebody with specific expertise for instance, to tackle invasive species. How would we even know them. We need a lot of that kind of stuff to be included. Does that answer the question?
Ms Roisin Lennon:
In relation to the point Ms Walsh made about animation, the importance of it in this programme, and any LEADER programme going forward, cannot be stressed strongly enough. The expectation is that we will do more with less.
We are expected to animate local communities that are hard to reach, have never accessed funding before and may never have the resources in-house to do the application themselves. Traditionally, we had an animation budget, as Maura said, that was separate from administration and allowed us to do that work. That is gone in this programme, yet the expectation is that we are going to deliver on that. We do not have a problem doing it. However, there is a resourcing issue that needs to be very clearly addressed. Animation is a core part of this programme going forward, and if we do not make it a core part again and suggest that it is administration, we are missing a huge area of development.
Mr. Andrew Ward:
In relation to whether I am worried, the answer is "Yes". LEADER got 10% of the CAP. The last time, it got 5% of the CAP. There is a 25% reduction in CAP and farmers will obviously be looking to get as much as they can. The LEADER model, which Europe has embraced, is community-level local development and in a European context, we talk about regional funding, fisheries funding, social funding and agriculture. The Government has said that it wants to support LEADER, but the bottom line is that the amount of money it is most likely to get from CAP is going to make it smaller. A decision has to be made nationally, not at EU level, about whether we want this programme. We are here making the argument for the programme. We are saying that it has worked and that its methodology is what underpins it. If we are true about supporting it, we have to sit down to see where the money is going to come from. In my opinion, blindly going on and saying we will get it all from CAP is waiting for a train wreck.
Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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The other set of questions relates to Ms Walsh's submission and the notions about the right to remain and the living countryside, which originated during the last time Ireland held the Presidency of the European Union and the Cork declaration was developed. In a way, we have seen the declaration turned on its head in the national development plan and in the housing plan published late last year. The GAA's demographics committee, which I met in Croke Park, has done a huge amount of work on banú na tuaithe - I am not quite sure of the phrase in English. It is the movement of people, particularly young people, out of rural Ireland and it is really down to the lack of housing. When we look under the surface, it is about the lack of infrastructure, difficulties with planning and the lack of delivery in smaller towns. Outside of the LEADER programme, to what extent are these issues hampering the development of rural communities and their economic growth?
Ms Maura Walsh:
It is a massive question, but housing and the right to remain are major issues. Other rural areas may be flying and there are three or four cars parked in every yard now, but they are there because there are three or four adult children who are still in the house and should be in their own houses. That is probably the reason.
Another thing we need to look at, and it goes back to my friend Phil Hogan, is the whole policy of local authorities and where their focus is. I am not sure that the best use of our local authorities is having them focused on whether a playground should have four swings and two slides or three swings and five slides. That is not what local authorities should be at.
If we look at water, wastewater and the role of Uisce Éireann, there are villages, towns and rural areas that are totally hampered. They cannot put in another house. The local authority cannot put a house in because the water treatment plants are not up to standard. When we had council housing, it took care of that bottom stratum that is now in the rental domain and HAP is now running into millions of euro. I am not so sure that we could not look at that again and elevate the councils back up to the areas they should be looking at. The LEADER groups should be let get on with what we were doing and doing very well. I think that might be part of it but that is a decision, again, on national funding. Ireland has thankfully been in a very strong position financially and has been able to take some of those measures on board at a national level, which is important.
The concept of the right to remain is one that I loved when I heard it. Kilmoyley has the right to have a hurling team and so does Ardfert. They should not have to amalgamate and call themselves Cillard like the camogie club. A lot of this is happening right across Duhallow as well. It is important that we take these things on board.
There is also the question of size. How big do we want suburban Dublin to become? Do we want it to go into suburban Meath and suburban Longford even? That is not healthy either. There is room and we cannot stay hollowing out rural Ireland and sucking the whole lot of it like a big hoover into the eastern region. It has to be balanced.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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We got into some deep philosophical thoughts there, to be quite honest. I will not-----
Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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They are essential to the future of rural Ireland.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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They are, and as a person who comes from rural and lives on the border of three counties with three provinces, I am totally aware of the role of rural Ireland. However, when we go back and talk about the role of local authorities versus LEADER companies when it comes to putting in playgrounds, we then also have to talk about community groups. The reason these projects go under local authorities is for insurance purposes. I am just saying that, and I will move on from there. However, that is where we have to balance how we have sustainable communities that have viable inputs versus development. The water gets muddied at local level for that sustainability piece, and that is another conversation. One of the reasons I got into politics was that I believe that the west of Ireland should not become the playground for the east. That is why I am in politics and why I will champion LEADER at all times. The work it has done since its inception has been absolutely invaluable. When I look across east Galway, and when I go into Offaly on one side or Tipperary on the other, I can see the work of the LEADER companies right through it. Maura and I spoke earlier about the work that Steve Dolan and Karen Mannion have done. Both have done incredible work with small ponds of money.
In relation to Andrew's comments, we need to look further and beyond as to how we can ensure the sustainability - and I talking to Deputy McGuinness's point - of the LEADER companies going forward. We cannot rely completely on the agricultural side of CAP that is negotiated every five years. There is a sustainability piece, whether that sits under enterprise or social protection. To me, there is an enterprise element because we are talking about sustaining jobs in rural areas. That is where I agree with Maura. We maybe need to see the LEOs in the local authorities taking some of that funding so it can be used better for local community groups.
The witnesses spoke about animation. We have gone to the next level of the conversation about where we need to go with this and how we, as a committee, can support the LEADER companies to bring it from €3 million to €4 million. What is the definition of animation? What is the risk that the companies would have to carry? Will the witnesses explore that a little further? I want to hear about how we can support LEADER companies on this. When I think of animation, I think back to the very beginning when funding was got through the LEADER programme for the workhouse in Portumna. That was done under animation. That was a building that had fallen down and this year we are going to host the national commemoration of the Famine. It will be the first time it will take place in a rural area. It would not be happening if we had not had that animation thought at the start. Will the witnesses tell us how we, as a committee, can help the LEADER companies?
Ms Maura Walsh:
Animation should be looked at as a separate element rather than a portion of our administration where it is competing with rent, rates, light and heat. That is what we are basically saying. We are still doing the work, but we are doing more with less. It should be recognised that some groups should get animation grants and grants worth certain amounts of time to help them put their applications together, so they are not competing with the Glenamaddys that have huge resources, know-how, shovel-readiness and expertise. They should not be competing. We need the Glenamaddys to go ahead and do better, but we also need animation grants for the smaller groups to work together. There are a lot of new communities and housing estates on the verges of towns and villages. They need to be built as communities to help them assimilate into the one that was there already.
Perhaps they need to find their own little bit, too, and it is about that kind of work. What we are saying is that the funding cannot be found within our 25%.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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Is that where we could see the expansion? I talk continuously, with the support of the Chair and everybody here, about the role of social enterprise and the disability community, and their opportunities for employment and participation. Ms Walsh's organisation cannot do that within the funding it has at the moment. We are looking to actually support, develop and sustain pathways. Perhaps the work is within the LEADER programme within their communities. Am I thinking the right way?
Ms Maura Walsh:
The Senator absolutely is thinking the right way. I worked in the ESB for 13 years before I came to this job. I remember Tralee at that time. Whether it was the post office, An Post, Telecom Éireann, the ESB and all those State and semi-State councils, we all had staff and every shop in town had a messenger boy who took clothes to be altered up and down. That was our disability sector. All of those businesses are now trying to tread water to stay in place. Everyone in that shop has to be working at 110% capacity. They are squeezed out. Those people have been squeezed out of areas. The ESB has now subtracted to TLI Group. There is no space anymore. The space is in social enterprises, mainly the social enterprises that have been generated, set up and operated by ourselves or subcommittees of ourselves as LEADER groups.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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There is an EU target for inclusion.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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We have an EU target of 6% for people with additional needs in the workforce. Is there a way of coming together and creating that capacity to provide support, whether it is in the childcare sector or the Meals on Wheels programmes that Ms Walsh was talking about, so we can train, adapt and support?
Ms Maura Walsh:
Our percentage is quite high. I will have to look at my figures, but I think we are close enough to one in four. It is one in five if not one in four coming from the disability side. Within the meals service, depending on the disability, you cannot put someone in front of hot ovens.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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That takes time.
Mr. Padraic Fingleton:
I will quickly touch on Deputy McGuinness's earlier comments on the sustainability piece and the importance of LEADER for local development companies. We do not get core funding, so we are looking to get 25% to fund the basics. If overall funding goes down to 25% or a lower number, you start to stretch the organisation. LEADER and SICAP were the main two funding programmes that were underpinning development companies. There is, as Mr. Ward said earlier, real concern about where the funding will come from.
In respect of funding, we are tying to protect where we are but we are also trying to enhance and grow it. At the moment, our staff within LEADER are stretched. They are finding themselves working mainly on administrative work. It is a huge missed opportunity to get out there and try to support those organisations that need help.
We touched on disability services. We would love to give more placements within community settings, but it is about capacity building and human-to-human contact to build people's confidence, awareness and skills, to be fair to people with disabilities so that when they step into placements they are set up for success, in the truest sense.
We need more funding for the animation piece. I sometimes describe our role using a sporting analogy. We are like the coach. When the athlete wins the race, he or she runs around the track but you do not see the coach running around the track. We are somewhat hidden. We are happy to be hidden because it is community-led and person-centred. They are the stars and we put them out front. Sometimes you do not know what you have until you lose it. There is a real concern across the board about funding, and any drop in funding at all, because there will be knock-on effects for the organisations. Ultimately, it is about the organisations and the work they do. The work we do is people-focused and all about our staff. Ms Lennon earlier touched on our ability to reward staff to the levels that they should be rewarded. At the moment, we are under pressure as we try to compete with other agencies out there. We are not getting the funding and are not able to reward our staff and are, at times, unable to retain our staff. That is hugely important in a place of work where it is all about building relationships and trust.
Ms Roisin Lennon:
A couple of points have been touched on. We hire development workers. When we go out to employ people, they are development workers. The clue is in the title. If we do not allow those people to be development workers, we are doing injustice to the communities we are here to serve. That is the point. If more of our time is being spent on paperwork and less of our time is being spent on developmental aspects, we are missing a huge element.
The Senator asked about the disability piece. It is important that LEADER, as a programme, is housed and has those wraparound supports we have spoken about. We have WorkAbility, for example, in Offaly and other parts of the country. The WorkAbility programme is specifically for people with disabilities to get them employment, to work with employers and participants to access that route. We, as a local development company, should be able to support that with access to other amenities through LEADER. At the moment, we cannot because the budget is not there to allow us to do it. What local development companies are now doing is seeking funding through other channels. For example, we recently put in an application in for social enterprise. As organisations, we are constantly trying to get funding from other places to deliver the services that we should be delivering.
Mr. Andrew Ward:
When we talk about animation and so on, some of the most entrepreneurial people you meet left school early. I know of a business. The gentleman who owns it has moved on to the local enterprise offices, LEOs, and Enterprise Ireland and is now employing a lot of people and doing a lot of work. He said that when he first walked into the LEADER office, he was scared stiff. If it was not for the fact that we sat down with him and our staff went through it and guided him, he said he never would have looked for a grant. We were the first step and the catalyst. I see LEADER as a catalyst programme. I can give an awful lot of examples in that regard. That has been lost. If it is not funded properly, we are losing that.
There is the whole thing of digitisation and all that. There are people who are being left behind and who need a helping hand. Sometimes when people are left behind, it is as if they are behind. Perhaps they are ahead. People who work on farms are completely innovative. They are innovating every day of the week. I come from a fishing community where there are fishing boats. I know there are no more innovative people than those with fishing boats because they have to be. They have no option. If something goes wrong out there, you have to do something about it. There are communities that are innovative and may need a help to start with. That is where the animation comes in, too.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I recently completed a LEADER application with the chamber of commerce in Portumna. I have first-hand and lived experience of completing it and understanding all the gateway processes. It was frustrating. That frustration was not brought to bear on me by the LEADER company, because it is doing its job and companies have to go through the gateways. Companies produce the receipts and do the first part of it. Perhaps time passes and those companies' applications are out of date because three months and one day have passed. They then have to go back through the whole process again to get the tender so they can get through the process. Communities get frustrated, too, not realising what must be done to move an application to the next stage of Pobal. We have gold-plated the funding mechanism because the EU is attached to it. I totally agree with what Mr. Fingleton said. We can see how the sports capital grant is done. A pitch could be being built for six, eight or ten months, but the price came in a year ago and we are still working off it. We do not go back and ask for retenders, over and back, all the time. However, we do that with small community groups. That seven-stage process is frustrating community groups. Some of them do not have the expertise or bandwidth of time to stick it out.
Mr. Padraic Fingleton:
The Senator mentioned bandwidth. It is a reflection of where we are with the community and voluntary sector at the moment. They have always been known for filling the gaps that mainstream services and Exchequer funding should have been funding to cover. There is a dependence on the community and voluntary sector, which is now stretched, and demands on the committees in community organisations. That sense of responsibility and expertise is needed. Now more than ever, we need to ensure we maintain, sustain and get in around these wonderful community leaders and support them in their roles. We need to encourage more people to come forward at a time when fewer people are coming forward. That is a particular shift we have seen post Covid. We really need to look after that space because of the dependency on the work these people do in providing wonderful supports and services in their own communities.
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I have a few questions. Today is all about LEADER and its future in terms of the CAP. There is probably a broad discussion to be had on how LEADER groups and action groups can get involved in the community and voluntary sector and be more supportive in terms of providing core funding and a commitment to programmes.
The most recent LEADER programme was allocated €180 million, which was 5% of CAP. Will the witnesses give me a breakdown of that? There was EU funding and then there was a national top-up. Will the witnesses explain to the committee the requirement in place for that?
Mr. Andrew Ward:
The overall CAP has been reduced by approximately 25%, so if we are talking about a 25% reduction to that €180 million, it would mean €45 million less for LEADER. That €135 million will not cut it. There is huge inflation, especially when anything is being built or done. I am not going to point to the children's hospital but we see it everywhere. It is seven years since the start of the last LEADER programme. As regards the €135 million, we may as well be honest and say that if we want a realistic programme, we have to fund it. How are we going to do that? I articulated my big fear before. The Government says that LEADER is an integral part of the rural development mix, but what is the practical application of that? What we need now is people to sit in a room and sort this out. If we just depend on CAP, especially when farmers have been asked for a 25% reduction, it is unrealistic to think that we will have a programme that will meet the needs that are there.
Mr. Padraic Fingleton:
It is about trying to protect what we have and, more so, about trying to get back to the levels that are required. Ms Walsh touched on the figures earlier. We were at around €400 million and now we are down to €180 million, so we are trying to get back to that level. Under the current programme, LEADER receives 5% of CAP Pillar 2. We have looked at this internally and, as Ms Walsh mentioned, a lot of work went on in the background within the network. The ask is that we try to put something on it. It is 2.5% of the overall CAP that is there. Within that, there is the European funding but we are also looking at the existing matching funding but the matching funding at the moment is-----
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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That is my next question. How much is the European funding and how much is the matching funding?
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Yes. Those are the figures I wanted. That is perfect.
Ms Lennon mentioned the tiered approach for smaller projects, which is very interesting. We have all dealt with LEADER projects over the years. It would be interesting to find out if a position paper has been on this by the local development companies or local community development networks. How do we approach that? It is great to talk about it but we need to have a position paper on how to push it on. That could be a real runner for the next programme.
Ms Roisin Lennon:
There are other funding models and programmes that have a proportionate risk attached to the grant aid provided. If the grant is under €10,000, the auditing requirements are reduced. We do not need to reinvent the wheel. We just need to look at those programmes, some of which are funded from Europe to see if we can apply that approach to LEADER.
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Is there a position paper?
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps that could be circulated to the committee. Once it is submitted, would the LCDN then submit that to the Department? Is that the process?
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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On the ten steps that were mentioned, do the development companies have proposals for how that process could be narrowed down?
Ms Maura Walsh:
We will work on that as well. There is space for everybody. I am not saying that everybody should have independent LAG status but those of us that want it should have it and those that want to continue to work as part of the LCDCs should do that. There is an over and back on silly things before it goes to evaluation. As Ms Linehan has said, we funded our environment calendars and we have the invoices, the numbers and everything else and we were then asked for photographs of the boxes of calendars to prove that we got them. The project's payment was held up for that reason. There is a level of that which we would say should not be happening.
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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What is the witnesses' position on that? How many steps would they agree to?
Ms Eileen Linehan:
I do not think it is even about the number of steps. It is about the logical process. When we put a project up for payment, or even for approval, after evaluation, the proposal goes up on the customer relationship management portal, CRM, and Pobal looks at it. There are steps to move it on. The development officer will move it on for me and then I will move it on at my user level. Then, when Pobal looks at it, it may bounce it back to what is called "level 4", with a lot of questions. The development officer then goes back and looks at the questions, after which it goes through the process of moving it back up again. Pobal then looks at it again and if there is something else, it is bounced back down again. We are all logging in and logging out and moving it up and down, all of which takes time. A practical approach would be to have it stay at one level while we answer the questions and then move it on. There are a lot of things like that to be looked at.
A suggestion was made earlier about procurement at contract signing. It is a big risk for communities. Even as development officers working with communities, we are kind of nervous when they are going off with their grant signed. We might think, "Oh God, the inspector could come in two years' time and see there was a date wrong and it was sent out before that date". We had that happen to a project. The community could get a letter telling them the grant will need to be paid back. That might not happen and we will work with them but it can cause stress. With things like that, a more practical and helpful approach would help.
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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There will be a position paper.
We heard earlier that LEADER is part of the community-led approach but that other grants have taken over in the community space. How could the LEADER companies interact more with Government Departments, not just the Department of Rural and Community Development and the Gaeltacht, which is the parent Department, but all of the Departments, on issues such as disability, health, social services and so on? How could the LEADER companies proactively work better and maybe achieve more as a result? I have been on the boards of LEADER companies over the years but the reality is that the witnesses are on the ground, they have the knowledge and the expertise and they have the people ready to do that. Instead of rehashing everything, how can we utilise the LEADER companies to make life better for more people and deliver more services, not just from the parent Department but from all the other Departments? I would like to see that being advanced more. What are the witnesses' views on how they would work in partnership with other Departments?
Ms Maura Walsh:
We would absolutely welcome that. It is an excellent idea. We would like to get what we call the "wraparound". For example, that would mean having the Ability programme work with social enterprises we have already set up in our area. It makes so much sense. The ball is back in our court. We need to set out our stall and have open days. One of the things we have done locally has been to invite as many Ministers and people from other Departments to come and see what we are doing on the ground because they may or may not know about it. That is something we intend to continue.
However, as a network, one of the things we did at our last meeting was our CEO, Máirin Ó Cuireáin, invited people in from the PEACE programme. They openly said it was their first time realising how much we were doing as groups on the ground, and we will see more tick-tacking there but it is an excellent point. We need to do that at network level with many Departments.
Mr. Padraic Fingleton:
In our organisation, we call it the three Rs. We have the reach into the community - and every development company has that in every county - and we have the relationship already built up over years of investment and working, so there is trust there, that is, their trust in us as always being seen as an honest broker. We have no skin in the game other than to empower and support them in helping build their capacity. The third R is around our responsiveness. We react to the needs and challenges in the community. We need to be agile and flexible and not many other agencies are afforded that flexibility. That is a huge selling point for us when talking to other organisations and agencies that work in rigid structures. We are then a huge conduit in rolling out the delivery of programmes across all the sectors in a county and across those areas where we have the reach and the relationship already built up. We leverage off of that and the ability to react and respond very quickly.
Mr. Andrew Ward:
Mr. Fingleton said a lot there but at a local level, we are very good at linking in. Whether it is with Fáilte Ireland or the LEOs or anything else, LEADER is very good at innovation and bringing people together.
I do not think the added value and innovation of LEADER are recognised at a national level. I will give an example. Going back to when we had the four LEADER companies, with three in the North and ourselves, we decided we wanted to see if we could have an Ireland, Northern Ireland and Scotland linkage. We went to the Scottish Parliament, got all-party groups together there and the Parliament had a debate on the basis of what the LEADER company in Inishowen had put to it. We then spoke at the British-Irish interparliamentary body about the idea of having a Northern Ireland, Ireland and Scotland strand within INTERREG. We then met the Taoiseach of the day and it was introduced. That would never have happened without LEADER and it has been worth tens of millions. It is because we are nimble and flexible, have contacts and are able to move forward. That needs to be protected.
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the witnesses for that.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I am glad to get the opportunity to welcome all the witnesses here today, especially Ms Walsh from IRD Duhallow, who over the years, has helped our side of the county in east Kerry in Gneeveguilla, Tooreencahill and Rathmore. There are signs of her work in many places.
I was at other things in the morning, but I heard the witness saying there that the areas, as defined, should not be on county boundary lines and I totally agree with Ms Walsh on that. What has actually happened is the Sliabh Luachra area has been split into two. Parishes like Ballydesmond and Rathmore are on both sides of the boundary, while Gneeveguilla is only a couple of miles from Knocknagree. They are the one people, as such, who live the same way and have the same kind of values and everything like that.
The CAP reduction, which has been fairly well signalled at 20%, will have a serious impact on the LEADER programme. If push comes to shove, I am worried about the rural social scheme, which is a very valuable scheme for many people who work in it and have done so over the years. Will that be safe or will that remain as it is?
Ms Maura Walsh:
The rural social scheme is safe in that it is Exchequer funded and is funded through the Department of social protection; it comes through the LEADER groups. However, the LEADER programme is like the trunk of the tree and the rural social scheme, social farming and all the other social inclusion schemes are all the branches that hang off it. If that trunk is so weakened and eroded, I worry the other things will fall and that would be a shame.
That is why we say LEADER groups and local development companies are a public good and should be seen as a public good in the same way as a school or hospital. If there is such a percentage cut, they are not going to suggest a cut of so much of the school. We do not do that. We should be ranked in that level and it is important that is the way we go forward, rather than saying "Tsk tsk, they are cutting and we will take our cut as well". I do not think we will. We have set out our stall nationally. It is 2.5% of the value of CAP, the money value on it is €425 million and that is where we need to go.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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As regards the enhancement works, will there be a reduction in all the great work that has been done in the local villages and town?
Ms Maura Walsh:
We come in at the €425 million, which is what we are looking for, or 2.5% of the value of CAP. This should improve rather than decrease, especially for those of us who have got massive cuts. We are down at €1.2 million for our north Cork leg, and €1.1 million I think in south Cork. That is not a programme, it is only a measure. However, we need to get that back up to the level of money that will sustain all the communities there, and we are more than willing to work at that.
Danny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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That is good, at least. I heard the Ms Walsh mention housing, which is a common topic, practically every day, up here. If words were concrete blocks, there would be enough houses for everyone, and two for some.
One of the things I have been highlighting for a long time is the number of vacant houses in villages, one after the other and even out in the country. People lived in them before, and for whatever reason, they are vacant now.
Do the witnesses have any ideas for Government as to what or how we could deal with them? I have said the tax should be reduced. Some people are in the 50% tax bracket and it is not worth their while to go renting out houses, and the rules are very strict so they cannot get their house back. Do the witnesses have anything to add to improve that or change the landscape in the amount of properties that are vacant?
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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That would be outside the remit.
Ms Maura Walsh:
It is and it is not. We did a fairly extensive search in Duhallow when our Ukrainian people came in and some of them were in temporary accommodations like Laharn and Banteer. Rather than sending them off to wherever, we looked at what houses would be available and those that were able to be rented and taken up straight away, so we have added in a good few.
On the derelict houses, that is an excellent idea. There are probably issues of ownership with some of them, because somebody emigrated and the last person died and nobody knows which fourth cousin where owns them - there is a bit of that. There are grants in place at present for both vacant properties and dereliction properties, but I would like to see this money only be available to those people who would purchase those derelict houses to develop and live in themselves. I would not like to see a REIT or whatever coming in and buying them all up to have a conglomerate for renting.
Some houses were maybe rented at low rent because it was a neighbour's child or whatever, and now they are stuck with the 2% on the couple of hundred they were charging, so there are bits there.
We can look at that. When we are putting in our submission, we will address it. We have a role in that too.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Do the local development companies have enough autonomy to respond to local needs or is central control undermining their impact?
Mr. Andrew Ward:
Maybe this has more to do with individuals than anything else, but LEADER is nimble and flexible in comparison with other programmes. In fairness to my board and people like that, I have very little constraint when trying to make things happen. From talking to those working in other organisations, I know they do not have that advantage. There is flexibility and nimbleness within LEADER, and that allows for the value-added aspect of LEADER. This means that when things happen, and I have given the example of the flooding in Inishowen, LEADER groups can adjust very quickly and move towards the issue. I would frame it slightly differently. I see it as one of the core advantages of LEADER.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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What percentage of total LEADER funding in each area goes on administrative costs versus front-line projects? Is that acceptable?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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If the witnesses could change one rule or constraint in the next LEADER programme, what would it be and why?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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Moneywise, what does Ms Lennon mean by a smaller project? Can she give an example?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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But there would be great rewards as a result.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I want to make an important point. I might not have another opportunity to do so. It is very important that public representatives see what is going to happen regarding funding. If it gets into a situation where one is playing off the other, it is no good to anybody. The LEADER funding has to stand on its own past record. It has to be shown what will happen out there if the reductions that have been talked about come to pass. Ms Lennon alluded to the farming budget. This is what I see that Europe is trying to do, and it should not be allowed. It behoves us, as public representatives, to try to ensure that does not happen. It is a difference.
We need to remember one thing. We are now net contributors, as a country. There has to be a row-back, whoever is talking about this. All my experience as a politician is that if you want something done and people start talking about it, they can get an opportunity to react to what the people involved, like the groups represented here, are saying. I do not like to see this. It will not be good going forward.
There is no such thing as finishing a LEADER project. Projects come and go, and they have a time limit. That is grand, and we accept that. However, LEADER is a programme that is there among the community all the time, with all the new opportunities coming up every five or ten years, or whatever the case may be. We can see it following through since 1991. That is important. I would like to get the views of the witnesses to help us.
Ms Roisin Lennon:
I am delighted that the Deputy is a passionate advocate of LEADER, as is everybody in this room, which is brilliant. The Deputy asked an important question earlier as to whether we could point to one project that would not have happened in an area without it. The example I would give is Dooley Wool. That business would not have been possible. This comes back to the point that Mr. Ward, Ms Walsh and all of us have made. Those projects get seed funding from us. It could be €50,000 or €10,000. From that, we can see the impact of LEADER on that community and that business. Kevin Dooley is now importing into Donegal, one of the leading areas for wool. That is an incredible achievement for him. He has stated clearly that he would not have got there if LEADER had not given a bit of backing and encouragement back in 2009. That is the importance of LEADER. Everybody can point to an example like that. If we lose it, we are losing much more than a grant-aided programme. The grant-aided programme is very limited, whereas we would be losing all of the expertise and development that goes with that.
Mr. Padraic Fingleton:
As we are looking to go forward, we are also looking to reference back and have an evaluation of the LEADER programme and its impact. There have been several recent reports by both the Commission and the European Council on the costs and benefits of the implementation of LEADER. There was a further study in 2022 looking at the social added value of LEADER, which was evidenced from marginalised rural regions. One of the outcomes was the recognition that every €1 invested by LEADER yielded a social return of €1.75. A further piece of research was done by the European Commission in 2023, which was a summary of the CAP strategic plans. It recognised LEADER's ability to respond to the multiple needs of rural areas in fields such as employment, social inclusion, rural services and rural innovation and competitiveness. We will happily send on those three reports to the committee. It is good to produce those reports as evidence since we are, naturally, championing funding for the future.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I will ask a simple question. The witnesses would have dealings with semi-State bodies. What was the reaction from Bord na Móna?
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am trying to do a greenway or a walkway - I do not want to call it a greenway. Bord na Móna is waiting to do all of its work first, or that is what it said to me. I said that is not acceptable because it could take ten or 15 years, and we want something now. Bord na Móna has the land. There should be a lot more co-operation.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I know about that.
Ms Roisin Lennon:
We have had recent experience where a community organisation, an athletics club, got a lease arrangement from Bord na Móna in Daingean. There are options out there. There are examples out there that we can use. It is not easy, obviously. It owns the land, so it has to be happy with whatever is being done.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I would argue with Ms Lennon on that. It was State land. Responsibility was given over to Bord na Móna, and we are just giving it back to the community, that is all.
William Aird (Laois, Fine Gael)
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I am only making the point. It has outlived its use.
Ms Roisin Lennon:
I agree 100%. I referenced just transition quite a lot in my statement. Like the people in Laois, we probably feel that it was not the fairest transition ever. What I would say is that we have to work hand-in-hand, and we do not have any option but to do that. We will continue to do that for as long as we can.
Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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We know from the testimony of the witnesses and from the record that in 2007, there was €465 million for the LEADER programme in Ireland.
It was down to €250 million for 2014-2020. The Minister has told me repeatedly - it is a matter of public record - that there was no cut because it is €250 million again for 2021-2027. That is the €180 million plus the €70 million for the transition period. We all know that €250 million went a lot further in 2014 than it will next year in 2027, the final year of the current programme. The very modest ask for €425 million for the next programme is too modest. That is not to be critical but when one acknowledges the good work LEADER does, the social return and dividend in our communities and the multiplier effect for every euro spent in our rural communities, that is far too low. If the Government was to really take rural Ireland seriously and acknowledge the value of the work the various LAGs have completed over the many years of the LEADER programme, it would recognise the dividend and the potential for every euro put through the LEADER programme. What would the witnesses like this committee to do? Would it be worthwhile for the committee to present a report based on the previous meeting with the officials and Pobal, our meeting today and the witnesses' submissions? If they were to give a set of short, sharp bullet point recommendations that such a report would include, what would they be?
Mr. Andrew Ward:
It comes down to money. It goes a way from platitudes in the programme for Government that it means something. If something could be put in place whereby we could work out where this money would come from and how it would be delivered - my fear is we are walking into a train crash and at the end of the day, LEADER has the potential to become worthless. If the Government is serious about what it is in the programme for Government and that LEADER is central to the development of rural Ireland, it would be helpful if this committee would encourage the various Departments to come together to see how we can have the living countryside and LEADER and make it work. It is that disconnect between what is said and making it happen. I would like this committee to help us in bringing that together so that we are in the real world, talking real figures and not just talking platitudes which at the end of the day will lead to a programme that virtually worthless.
Ms Maura Walsh:
I would welcome if this committee put a report together. The Chairman asked us earlier to come back - the network of all of us is having a strategic planning meeting in Athlone next Monday. I will reach out to the groups that are not part of that network as well. I have a good relationship with all of them. It is important that we sit down as a network. I can say what I would like to see in it. I would probably have been one of those who said "only €425 million?" but that was the consensus and that is what we are going with. There are areas such as simplification of rules. There were programmes before that were attached to LEADER coming through our Department like CLÁR. There was a formula that whatever was put up by CLÁR, LEADER had to put in another third and the local authority had to put in the final third. I would like that kind of initiative to come back, especially for playgrounds and things in hard-to-reach communities. I would like simplification of rules - going over and back, taking photographs of everyone at the training course every week to prove they were there and not just the attendance sheet - mother of God. A lot of progress had been made in the rules but perhaps the Court of Auditors reports are being taken very much to heart and perhaps there should be a bit of pushback. That would make the programme less complicated for those involved. We will undertake to come back to the committee with a very comprehensive document. There was a fabulous recent report by the OECD which we can draw on as well. It has been evaluated several times but for the committee's benefit going forward it would be important that we reference all of those and the context, which we will.
Conor McGuinness (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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I formally propose that the committee compile such a report. I am not a full member but I would be more than happy to be involved in that process if possible. The report would contain recommendations and we would transmit it to the Minister.
I already mentioned the holistic approach and the key benefit for rural communities. There are so many other schemes under the LEADER umbrella that are not directly related but happen because it exists. In Waterford LEADER Partnership which I met recently there is social farming, Tús, RSS, a trails programme and any number of other schemes, programmes and projects that take place in various different LAGs. What is the danger to those really important pieces if we do not get the result we all want for the LEADER programme in the next one? Will Ms Lennon comment?
Ms Roisin Lennon:
I think Mr. Fingleton referenced it - we do not get core funding. For our organisations to exist we are really dependent on two programmes, namely, LEADER and SICAP. If there is a cut to one, as Ms Walsh described, the branches of the other will start to die. We cannot continue to resource endlessly without getting a resource under those two core programmes because they cover all of the overheads. They are proportioned but those other programmes are in danger of being diminished. They might not go but if LEADER is reduced and a company does not go for LEADER next time because it is not economically viable and it cannot afford to, that has an impact on all of the other programmes that company runs.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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I thank everybody for their contributions. On Mr. Ward's point, it is not platitudes within the programme for Government; they are serious commitments that have been prioritised. The programme for Government is our Bible. To have anything named in it means that is the prioritisation. I will agree with him - it is about funding but at least it is in the programme for Government for us to argue for the funding. That in itself is a good start. I would go one step further. I recognise the work the witnesses do and then I see funding allocated to other areas and Departments and I do not see the delivery coming through as quickly or as regimental. The rural regeneration programme gets a lot of money - I think €1 billion under the national development plan is allowed in the rural regeneration programme. That is a hefty sum - we can go into all of our own constituencies and see what is delivered, what is in the pipeline and what has been allocated but not started. I would love to see a mechanism for the role of the LEADER programme working in conjunction with the rural regeneration programme because it goes back to supporting our communities and to the most important part which is delivery on the ground. That is what makes the difference. I see in my own area a lot of money is allocated but there is only one project over the line, one in the pipeline and about eight more sitting over there while the local authorities are building up staff and everything else. If there were core skill sets that could help bring projects though, it would make a difference. It is only a point of thought but if I was in the witnesses' shoes, I would put a pitch in.
I want to go back the basics - Ms Lennon spoke really well about Meals on Wheels. In Offaly, there are a lot of Meals on Wheels but a lot of it is not funded. Will Ms Lennon comment on the non-funded element? Offaly Local Development Company carries the burden if it is not funded. Where is not being funded from?
Ms Roisin Lennon:
We get core funding for our community services programming which funds staff and Meals on Wheels to a degree. We run a series of lunch clubs in addition to those core-funded Meals on Wheels. We do not get any core funding for those.
The service is costing us money. As a company if we wanted to be very brutally honest and look at the economics of it-----
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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If we just peel it back for a second, who is being supported? Is it older people?
Ms Roisin Lennon:
Yes, older people and people living in rural isolation who are not part of the disability sector but are maybe not engaging with society in the way they could or should if they were given the right infrastructure to do it. We are very strong on this. It comes back to the social benefit and social gain of what we do. There is a huge social impact from what we do in the lunch clubs, for example. We have put a monetary value on it. We are doing that currently. We need other State organisations to back us in supporting those people to be part of it.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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Is that the Department with responsibility for older persons?
Ms Roisin Lennon:
Currently, we have a very good relationship with the HSE, which has been giving us additional funding. I would welcome the opportunity to know who at Department level we should be talking to in relation to this. We were considering the Department of Health.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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That is exactly the Department.
Ms Roisin Lennon:
The HSE is very supportive of what we do in our company in relation to our meals on wheels service and the other services we provide. However, the HSE is constrained because there is lots of other stuff it needs to be doing as well. We need to look at it because it is a very valuable service and it is absolutely oversubscribed by communities who want it in their local area. We have to cut our cloth to our measure.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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Perhaps Ms Walsh would expand on that point about the service being oversubscribed and maybe not supporting enough but actually there is the real need. Sometimes there a disconnect between the need and the funding. The witnesses know the need and we need to fund the gap.
Ms Maura Walsh:
Going back to wearing my economics hat, there have always been three definitions of social enterprise. One is the community enterprise which the community can run so that there is an income. A second model was where the State subcontracts. The third one was demand deficient. In other words, the demand is there, but the people with the demand do not have the money to back it. That is the element of social enterprise that has not really been addressed that much in Ireland. We are looking more at the other models. There are huge opportunities in things like the circular economy. There are certainly opportunities in the basics, like Maslow's food and shelter. A lot of people are living under the radar in rural Ireland in appalling conditions. We would not even call them outhouses. As I said, if they were dogs, the ISPCA would be there to rescue them, but they are people. There are elements that we could look at as groups and we have the agility and ability to do that. I would love and it would be good if each of us as LEADER groups of local development companies were able to write our strategy, as Ms Linehan referred to earlier, for what is needed in our area, but we are somewhat confined. We have to write a strategy for LEADER and a strategy for social. We should be able to do a holistic one, but the core funding of us as organisations should be looked at so that we could address those other areas. Who goes out when there is a storm or deep snow? We go out with workers from the rural social scheme, RSS, and Tusla, end of story. Who does the food? Who does the meals? Every region will have to have a provider. By 2030 we are facing nearly a doubling of our over-65 population. Those aged 65 to 70 will probably be a good bit more agile than they would have been a generation ago, but even allowing for that and let us say it is even a 60% increase as opposed to 100%, that is a lot of people. Instead of paring back or cutting down our bit of the tree trunk they should be fattening it up and putting a few stay poles on us and the people coming after us to make sure they are there to provide those supports and work across government. We are not exclusive and we are available to have relationships with all Government Departments.
Ms Roisin Lennon:
Mr. Fingleton made a point earlier about how we are putting more and more on the community and voluntary sector to fill a gap. We have sent papers about social enterprise to various organisations. If it was profitable, a private enterprise would be doing it. That is the first thing to bear in mind. The second thing to bear in mind on the social enterprise piece is that they are boards of volunteers who have come together and who now have a legal responsibility, with all of the administration requirements and revenue requirements of a legal entity. Their staff are paid basic wages but they are expected to be the devil and all.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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And they do not have the tools to do the job, such as the van to go out to do the meals on wheels deliveries.
Anne Rabbitte (Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, Chair, if I am hogging time on this, but it is a huge issue. If we do not have the basic fabrics, from a meals on wheels perspective, and we do not have a designated social enterprise with responsibility for it that is properly funded with the tools, the staff, the training and everything else that goes along with it, what if we were to have another Covid outbreak again in the morning? I think of Gort, where a certain pub did a lunch trade all the time and there were 41 individuals who got their lunch there every day because that was what they did and it was part of their day. Covid happened and they were kept at home. It was a question of how we get the food to them. Therefore, we need that register. That risk register ties in everything, such as with Storm Éowyn, because at least there is somebody holding that register.
John Paul O'Shea (Cork North-West, Fine Gael)
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We are out of time. I thank all participants for today's session. It has given great feedback on the LEADER programme in particular but also on the companies that are providing outreach support for the LEADER programme and many other programmes. It has given us a great deal of food for thought in terms of our continued deliberations in this committee. I thank the witnesses, Ms Lennon, Ms Duffy, Ms Walsh, Ms Linehan, Mr. Ward and Mr. Fingleton for their contributions and for providing the briefing materials in advance. We very much appreciate that. Following on from Deputy McGuinness's comment, we can take that away in terms of producing a report. I know the witnesses want to furnish us with some further detail as well, which will enhance the report.