Oireachtas Joint and Select Committees
Thursday, 19 March 2026
Joint Oireachtas Committee on Children and Equality
State-provided Childcare Places and Early Childcare Matters: Discussion (Resumed)
2:00 am
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Apologies have been received this morning from Deputy John Connolly and Senator Nikki Bradley.
The agenda item for consideration this morning is a resumed discussion on State-provided childcare places and early childcare matters on which we have had a number of sessions already. We are joined at the meeting by Ms Frances Byrne, director of policy, advocacy and campaigning at Early Childhood Ireland; Ms Bernadette Orbinski Burke, chief executive officer, and Ms Mairéad Hurley, head of childminding services, at Childminding Ireland; Ms Karen O'Sullivan, chief executive officer, Cork County Childcare Committee; and Ms Assumpta O'Neill, county childcare manager, Wicklow County Childcare Committee. They are all very welcome.
The purpose of this meeting is to hear views of stakeholders on issues facing the early childcare sector and on the recent announcement by the Minister of the roll-out of publicly funded early childcare places.
The witnesses may be aware that the committee met the Minister, Deputy Foley, on 26 February to discuss these topics. The aim of that meeting was to afford members the opportunity to gather detailed information on how the publicly funded early childcare places will operate at present and in future. While the recent announcement on this matter is very welcome, it is important there is proper scrutiny and transparency regarding the delivery of the service.
I know many of the witnesses have been here previously but I will go through some housekeeping matters. We have one member on MS teams and I remind everyone that the chat function on MS teams should only be used to make the team on site aware of any technical issues or urgent matters that may arise. It should not be used to make general comments or statements during the meeting.
I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard I ask members participating via MS Teams that prior to making their contribution to the meeting that they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.
In advance of inviting the witnesses to give their opening statements, I advise them on the following in relation to parliamentary privilege. They are protected by absolute privilege in respect of the presentations they make to the committee. This means that they have an absolute defence against any defamation action for anything they say at the meeting. However, witnesses are expected not to abuse this privilege, and it is my duty as Cathaoirleach to ensure that this privilege is not abused. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, witnesses will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative that they comply with any such direction.
The witnesses will be allocated three minutes each to deliver their opening statements. This will be followed by a question-and-answer session with our members.
Ms Frances Byrne:
I bring apologies from our CEO, Teresa Heeney. I am substituting for her today as we had a number of time conflicts. I am the director of policy at Early Childhood Ireland. I thank the Chair and committee members for their invitation to discuss State-led services and issues facing the early years and school age care system.
Early Childhood Ireland is the leading children's advocacy and membership organisation. We work in partnership with almost 4,000 members to achieve inclusive, high-quality experiences for every child in early years and school age care settings, including childminders' homes. Early Childhood Ireland welcomes the State-led early learning and childcare capital programme. The latest figures, which may be superseded shortly, are that up to 40,000 children are on waiting lists for places in crèches throughout Ireland, while in other countries every child is guaranteed access to an early years and school age care place from the age of one year, whether this is in what we would recognise as a centre or in a childminder's home.
We view this intervention, the first of its kind by Government, as a very important step towards increasing the State's role in the provision of early years and school age care. We particularly welcome the news that universal design guidelines are to be applied to the development of these new services under the programme, including in purchasing and building plans. Early Childhood Ireland is keen to hear more details of these developments, including timelines for delivery, criteria for assessing applications and the decision-making process that will be utilised by the Department and the advisory group it has established, as well as the participating bodies mentioned by the Minister in her recent engagement with the committee. We emphasise the need for full and comprehensive transparency to apply to all stages of this process. Even if it must be applied retrospectively in year one, it is critical there are published criteria for success and that the lessons learned this year are made available on an ongoing basis.
While this programme and its potential impact are very welcome, we believe that the successful and sustainable expansion of services cannot be truly achieved until serious staffing challenges are comprehensively addressed. There are serious recruitment and retention issues and if these are not urgently addressed, this and other initiatives simply will not work. Alongside the employment regulation order, Early Childhood Ireland believes that ongoing inequalities remain in terms and conditions between graduates in our part of the system and those who work in primary schools, and these must be addressed substantially.
I apologise for going slightly over time. I thank the committee and I look forward to the discussion where I hope we, with members of the committee, can examine the challenges and the solutions in this vital area of children's lives.
Ms Bernadette Orbinski Burke:
I thank the committee for the opportunity to address it today. Ireland relies on childminding for a significant portion of its childcare capacity, and that capacity is now showing clear warning signs. Childminding Ireland is the national body for childminders. We support over 3,300 childminders and more than 10,200 parents. Childminding is a core part of the national childcare infrastructure, relied upon by tens of thousands of families every day. At least 13,000 childminders are working across the country, and this figure is likely to be materially understated, while up to 40,000 children under three are already on waiting lists.
The sector supports safeguarding and quality standards. We are increasingly concerned that the current regulatory approach is placing the sustainability of childminding at risk. The working group reform pathway originally proposed a supported migration into regulation, including infrastructure, mentoring networks, training and investment. The simple principle was to build the foundations first so childminders could transition confidently into regulation. However, we now see warning signals from the workforce. According to a recent survey of childminders only 24% intend to register, 32% intend to leave the sector entirely and 44% remain undecided. This is not stability; it is a workforce hesitating.
Among the most engaged childminders, progression is very low. Of 634 childminders who completed pre-registration training, only around 15% have gone on to register. This is not resistance to safeguarding. The concern is that regulatory systems designed for crèches are being applied to home-based childminding. We are also seeing barriers emerging beyond the regulations themselves. We are, therefore, asking for four practical steps. These are a system-wide review, independent review oversight, genuine input from childminders themselves in shaping solutions, and a pause before mandatory registration in September 2027 to allow this work to be completed. The question now is whether we respond or wait until childcare capacity has already been lost.
Ms Assumpta O'Neill:
I thank the committee for the opportunity given to Childcare Committees Ireland to join it today to discuss State-provided childcare places and other issues facing the early childcare sector. For context, Childcare Committees Ireland is the umbrella group for city and county childcare committees, CCCs, and provides a representative structure for them. There are 30 city and county childcare committees which operate at local authority level across the country.
The network of CCCs was established under the then Department of Children, Disability and Equality to provide for local implementation of national childcare policy. The CCCs' role is to act as the operational bridge between the Department and the stakeholders concerned with the early learning and care and school age childcare sector, including providers, potential providers, local agencies, parents and families. The CCCs provide the essential delivery and support mechanism at local level. In practical terms, CCCs help to translate national policy into quality services for children. Essentially the CCCs are the State’s local implementation partners, ensuring that childcare policy is delivered consistently, responsibly and in alignment with national objectives.
The CCCs warmly welcome the development of State-led early learning and care through a capital programme. The programme will deliver additional places in areas of the highest need. These additional places must accommodate children when they are aged between one and three years and continue until they start school.
The role of CCCs within the programme is to support the initial scoping of projects, working with community early learning and childcare operators, local authorities, developers and-or other interested parties. The local CCCs will support the preliminary submission to the Department.
The Department has engaged on several occasions with all CCCs to update them on the State-led capital programme. CCCs are uniquely positioned to work with organisations at the earliest stages in order that they can identify emerging pressures, regional disparities and implementation challenges. Where necessary, the Department is engaging individually with CCCs in relation to specific projects.
Childcare Committees Ireland acknowledges that despite increasing investment in the sector, there are still issues that impact on the delivery of childcare services. The predominant issue for both private and community childcare services is that of staff recruitment and retention. However, Ireland is not unusual in this as it is an issue that is reflected in many other European countries.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is proposed to publish the opening statements to the committee website. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Before I call members, I remind them they have seven minutes' speaking time, which must include time for responses from the witnesses. I will allow a brief second round of questioning if members indicate they would like to speak again, as I have no doubt they will. I ask members, when putting their questions, that they strictly adhere to the agenda topic under consideration at this meeting and to direct their questions to the witnesses they wish to respond. I will call members in accordance with the speaking rota circulated. If members are contributing via MS Teams, they should confirm they are on the Leinster House campus.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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I thank all the witnesses for being here today. I will begin with Ms Byrne who mentioned in her opening statement that in many countries children have a guaranteed place once they turn one year. What are other countries doing that we are not be doing here? What could we do to help parents stay at home until their children are aged one?
Ms Frances Byrne:
I thank Deputy Dempsey for the question. I am smiling because I am conscious of time. The short answer is that those other countries are investing around four times more than we are. Even though the previous Government reached the expenditure threshold of €1 billion five years early, which was very welcome, we are still lagging behind. Expenditure stands at €1.4 billion, which is not quite 1% of GDP. Sweden and others spend 1.9%. That is the short answer.
There are also cultural and historical differences. The provision of early years and school-age care, as well as the first year of a child's life, which the Deputy referred to, are all seen as a public good and very much taken for granted. This is built into employer's systems, if you like. All of that then supports what happens. The final difference between Ireland, as of now, and those countries is that, notwithstanding the great work of the CCCs, in those other countries what we, for shorthand, call childcare is delivered via local authorities. That means there are two- and five-year planning cycles and they know the number of children who are coming. That means they are in a strong position to contact families before their child turns one to say, for example, they have found a childminder down the road, there is a setting and that the parents should have a look and make a decision based on what suits their child best. It sounds like nirvana to Irish parents.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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It absolutely does. I thank Ms. Byrne.
Will Ms O'Neill tell us how many interested parties have been in touch with Wicklow County Childcare Committee about State-led provision of childcare? Of those, how many, in percentage terms rather than specific numbers if they are not available, will meet the criterion of providing 100 spaces in an area of real need and that are not already a private service?
Ms Assumpta O'Neill:
I can only really talk about Wicklow. While we are here to represent Childcare Committees Ireland, CCI, I can specifically talk about Wicklow. In some ways Wicklow would be a similar county to Meath insofar as we have very rural areas and very urban areas and there is also our proximity to Dublin. In Wicklow we are looking at two projects at the moment. One is a greenfield site and one is an existing building. One is in rural west Wicklow. We have been working with that service for 18 years. Under the national childcare investment programme, which finished in 2008, that service had an application in for a crèche but, with austerity measures, it did not get the funding. We have been working with that organisation for that long. It is now looking at a greenfield site. The other possibility is an existing building and we are unsure whether that will work out. That is what is happening in Wicklow. I will pass over to my colleague who can fill the members in on the situation in Cork.
Ms Karen O'Sullivan:
In Cork we are also working with two organisations and, much like Ms O'Neill in Wicklow, we have been working with one of those organisations for the last 15 years. It is in an area of high disadvantage where the market has yet to provide full-day childcare. It seems the only option is for a community service. However, getting the funding available to start a community childcare service from scratch is incredibly difficult and can only be achieved through the State-led childcare programme at present.
The other group we are looking at is potentially a very quick project, in that it is a building attached to a local housing development and it is at shell and core stage already. A building like that could be turned around really quickly as long as it meets the criteria. We are in discussion with the Department around those.
Across the country, there are maybe another six or seven projects which are currently in discussion with the Department because they are groups that have buildings available to them that are ready to go through a purchase and refit.
Aisling Dempsey (Meath West, Fianna Fail)
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Childminders are very important to so many people and provide a fabulous service. We know that. I understand their hesitation around registration and putting themselves in a formal setting. Ms Orbinski Burke's recommendations seem valid. Regarding recommendations 1 to 3, is there any possibility they could be done within the 27 September timeframe if all parties were brought together and worked really hard on it? There are benefits for childminders to register. If we ironed out all the other issues, does Ms Orbinski Burke think it could be done?
Ms Bernadette Orbinski Burke:
Everybody would like to stick to the original timeframe if that were possible. However, it is a crisis and we really need to understand the blocks, find the solutions and implement changes. We need that vent so the pressure does not build up and people leave when the solutions could be coming. We know childminders are leaving every single day. They are not waiting for 27 September. It is difficult to communicate appropriately to members just how many childminders are not engaging in this system. I am sure the numbers may have moved marginally, but we know 634 childminders did the pre-registration course. One would think they are the earlier adopters who are open to it because they are looking to do it. Unfortunately, only about 15% of those went on to register. They do not see themselves in what they perceive to be the new system. They are the most enthusiastic childminders coming forward to embrace it. We are 18 months into a three-year transition period and only about 88 new childminders have joined the register in that time. There are 40,000 children on a waiting list and another workforce is in crisis.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In relation to Childminding Ireland, we are talking about 13,000 childminders. At this point, how many are registered with Tusla?
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That does not sound like a resounding success so far.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Around 24% of those recently surveyed said they intended to register and 32% intended to leave the sector entirely. The witnesses have already said there are many leaving the sector as we speak. Around 44% remain undecided. Out of the 634 who have completed pre-registration, only 15% went on to register. Those figures speak for themselves. This is an abject and absolute disaster. We have all spoken to childminders who say that this will not work for them. They see it as being too difficult. People have come up with solutions in relation to childminding that are hugely ad hoc in nature. We all want to see a framework and protections put in place, not only for the children but also for those who work in the sector but-----
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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There is always a solution but what do the will and funding look like? What needs to be done and who needs to do it?
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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When Ms Hurley says quality assure, she means that everybody understands what they are signing up to and what works but we are well away from that. What needs to happen at a governmental level to ensure that we do not have a disaster? It looks to me like a disaster has already started.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Okay. Childminding Ireland has had no major engagement at this point with the Minister. Is that correct?
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is that despite multiple requests?
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is not good enough.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Therefore, the Minister is not dealing with Childminding Ireland as it is dealing with a disaster. We all know the issues here. As elected representatives, we are contacted by people regularly. Obviously people do not go to a TD about the fact that they cannot get a childminding place unless they are dealing with a disaster and have hit too many brick walls. What do the proposals of Childminding Ireland look like at this point, as opposed to what the Government is attempting to do?
Ms Bernadette Orbinski Burke:
The Department is talking about a review of the regulations. We are lobbying to have a review of the entire childminding system because we are concerned that it might become about compliance with regulation rather than about retaining childminders, being good for recruiting childminders and so on. We need to look at the holistic position. There are various reviews coming up, including of the national childcare scheme, NCS, and we have been told that there is an opportunity for Childminding Ireland to take part in that on behalf of childminders. We really feel that we need everything in the one place. The review should cover all of that.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That would be Childminding Ireland tagging along with an NCS review. At some level, Childminding Ireland is not worried once it has a facility for a review of childminding but it has to be-----
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We need something that is comprehensive. In fairness, it is very hard to put a review together if the Department is not talking to organisations like Childminding Ireland which know the ins and outs. That organisation is conversing directly with multiple people who are involved in childminding and have been for many years, many of whom are actually exiting the sector at this point in time.
Ms Mairéad Hurley:
I can quote an email that is typical of mails I would receive on a regular basis. It states:
Hi Mairéad, I just want to let you know I'm not going to proceed with childminding due to the new regulations. I think they're very unfair to people who've provided a service that was working perfectly for the majority of childminders. Why fix something that is not broken?
That is from a childminder with 15 years' experience who has always been Garda vetted, first aid trained, child safeguarding trained and signed up to the child safeguarding and safety declaration. These are the people we are losing.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is Ms Hurley getting calls and emails constantly?
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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These are people who have gone through X, Y and Z in relation to due diligence and who have no issue with that. What is coming down the track as regards compliance, which is not meeting them halfway, is going to put their lights out.
Ms Mairéad Hurley:
Yes, they do not see themselves in the system. They do not recognise it. Again, I go back to my earlier point. We did not start by asking, what does quality childminding look like? That needs to be established first and recognised on its own two feet and then we need to work out how we go about quality assuring that because not everybody should be childminding. This is about safeguarding as well.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I understand that, and there is nobody here who does not understand the importance of child safeguarding. Ms Hurley is saying that the Minister has started in the wrong place. The system always puts in rules and regulations in relation to compliance, and that is fine, but we have not actually created the framework for those rules. We have just put a set of rules in place that are fairly arbitrary and the only thing we have told those people who have worked in childminding for many years is that there is no space for them here and that this is not going to work for them. Therefore, we are telling parents that they will have even less access to childcare into the future.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Not only are we not delivering affordable childcare, but we are actually getting rid of those who have been involved in its provision for years.
I would say to the Chair that we obviously have to make that point to the Minister as soon as possible. It is not okay in any way, shape or form that she has not met Childminding Ireland. We need to make sure that we arrest what is a complete disaster in relation to parents and childminders.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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All of the witnesses are very welcome today. I am very interested in the work of the childcare committees. Would each of them periodically report to the Department? Would they provide data updates on a quarterly basis, for example?
Ms Karen O'Sullivan:
Yes. Essentially the Department provides us with a local implementation plan on an annual basis and that is what we are funded to deliver. We would collate data on all of the actions in the plan and report them back, through a system organised by Pobal, to the Department. At any point, the Department can reach out to us if it wanted facts and figures around, for instance, how many childminders we have engaged with or how many services have come forward in relation to State-led childcare. The Department can request that information from us. We have a small group of national representatives which then collates all of those figures from the 30 committees and delivers those to the Department any time they are requested.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Just to be clear, it is done on an annual basis but also on an ad hoc basis.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There is a system to do that. Is that correct?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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In terms of the forward planning unit in the Department of children, have there been additional requests in relation to data since that unit was set up?
Ms Assumpta O'Neill:
I will take that question because I work quite closely with the forward planning unit. The answer is "Yes". The childcare committees did a piece of work in the autumn which looked at how many childcare facilities had been built under the 2001 planning guidelines. We were asked, where possible, to identify what was actually operational. That was done for each childcare committee area and covered the whole of the country.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Have they become new data requirements for the half-yearly reports?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I assume they will be.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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On the waiting list numbers, I am really curious as to how they are arrived at. I have seen various figures. I ask the witnesses to explain the formula for coming up with the number of children on waiting lists.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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There are 18 in Dublin.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Equally, there are children like my own who were never on a waiting list because no childcare providers were taking a waiting list. They were not taking additional names. I have serious question marks over the data.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Would Ms O'Neill like to see parents registering with the childcare committee so that we would actually have some accurate data?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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It is very important to do that and that there are accurate figures relating to the demand. As I said, I certainly have question marks over the accuracy of figures. I am not really sure how you can match up and deliver good policy if you do not have good data.
Ms Assumpta O'Neill:
Yes, and it is very difficult. That is why we are very different to schools. People would say it is very easy. Schools and the Department of education have a forward planning unit and they are able to do it. The difference is, as we all know, children before they start school are minded in so many different ways. Parents may take a career break. There could be informal care, namely, families and childminders. It could be in registered crèches. It is so variable.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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The childcare committees would have no objection to parents registering their interest for childcare with them if there was a technical solution or easy way to do that.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I am conscious of my time. The Department has compiled data on a local basis as to what it understands is demand versus childcare delivery, but it is telling us that this data is commercially sensitive. I struggle with how a Department can say data is commercially sensitive when we are relying on private and public providers to supply childcare, and we have a huge lack of childcare. Would Ms Byrne like to see that data published so that providers and childminders in the area could understand what the demand is and try to match that to delivery?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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All of it. It will not release the areas of highest demand versus unmet delivery.
Ms Frances Byrne:
I understand. We rely on the annual sector profile. It sounds very "insidery" but that is what it is called. All the data that is reported is self-reported data, which is fair enough. Providers are telling the truth; they have this number of children on the waiting list. Then there is an availability of places, but there is no match-up between that. I totally accept the Deputy's point. This is a very long way of saying "Yes, I agree". We agree.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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I do not understand the commercial sensitivity. Why is the State saying the data is commercially sensitive?
Ms Frances Byrne:
The State is investing so much that it has all become a bit blurred. Technically, we still have 70% in private hands, but a good portion of those settings are ECCE only, so every penny that is going in is State-provided. Of course they are owned by somebody, I am not arguing with the legalities at all-----
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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We know we need more childcare places.
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Ms Byrne mentioned that there are areas like my own in north County Dublin, such as Balbriggan, where there is a lack of community childcare services. How do the childcare committees go about supporting communities to set these up?
Grace Boland (Dublin Fingal West, Fine Gael)
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Where that does not happen? I do not think a lot of people realise there is an ability to set these up.
Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in this morning. A total of 0.3% of our GDP, which is the lowest in Europe, is spent on early childcare education in this country. That is what the problem is in Ireland. We are heavily reliant on for-profit and private services. We are one of the countries that heavily relies on that model to provide our early childcare services. Until we provide a public not-for-profit model in early childcare learning facilities, possibly with the childcare sector that is there or within the local authorities, we are not going to get anywhere.
The current model is not working. A total of 40,000 children are on waiting lists. That is basically for children over the age of two and a half. There is no legal entitlement for any child in this country to have childcare under that age. That is where the difficulty is. I know the childminders and crèches in this country will not hear this, but until we get away from that for-profit private service, we are going to continue to have these problems within the childcare sector. There are huge issues within every childcare service in this country, be it staff shortages, high turnover, trying to recruit and pay parity for the people working in these services. I have highlighted a couple of issues, namely, the administrative burden and the duplication between Pobal and Tusla and the stress it adds to the services that are there.
Until we actually know what we really want for quality early childcare in this country, and that is specified and clarified, we are going to continue to have these problems within the childcare sector going forward. I raise the level of education for staff within those environments and settings as well. That needs to be clarified as well. We probably have one of the lowest in Europe when it comes to education in those settings. How do we fix it all? Would the witnesses be more favourable to the model of the not-for-profit model, public services and community childcare facilities that could be provided? Would they be more in favour of that type of model?
Ms Karen O'Sullivan:
I thank the Senator. I do not disagree with her around the profit and the community provision. It is about investment across the board, although community services get more investment in things like building blocks and the State-led childcare is only for community services. Equally, community services are not without issue. They are reliant on voluntary boards of management to run a service, to employ people and to have all of those HR responsibilities. From the childcare committee's perspective, I have 88 community services in County Cork and my staff team spend a lot of time supporting those services with the general governance of and the difficulties of running a childcare service. It needs very careful consideration if we are to move away from what is now a majority profit-led childcare sector.
Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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Does Ms O'Sullivan think we are too heavily reliant on that for-profit private service model in this country?
Sharon Keogan (Independent)
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It is a catch-22 but nevertheless community childcare or even a local authority model does not matter; it is just the non-for-profit element. Could that be more financially sustainable with better pay parity than what we have currently?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I might just interject. Ms Byrne also wants to come in.
Ms Frances Byrne:
I thank the Senator for her question; it is the question of the day. Without trying sound too much like I do not have enough of a life, it is the question that keeps me awake at night because as the director of policy for Early Childhood Ireland, I wish I could answer it in a sentence. The Senator hit the nail on the head but it is very complex. At Early Childhood Ireland we would like a political vision. We would like to hear from Government to say a vision. There is lots of talk about a public model, as the Senator just raised. Does that mean fully public or more publicly funded and more managed? We would love a political visionary to say, this is what their party thinks - or indeed an Independent could do it if they were in government; I am not discriminating - and say that by 2035 or 2050, this is what our system will look like. Presumably one reason that has not happened to be fair to all elected representatives is it is the middle, in-between bit that is really complex. This is not Denmark in the 1950s; we have settings in Early Childhood Ireland that are on the go since the 1950s. They are all in private hands. They may not make much money and they may describe themselves as services but they are in private hands. There are also members who have literally borrowed and invested millions of euro in all of that. There are complex conversations to be had. In the countries where it is fully treated as a public good, that is where we know the highest quality for children is delivered. That is the big selling point. There are nearly 5,000 settings. Somebody needs to have very serious conversations with them about the transition to public if that is what it is going to be. The Minister's consultation that is about to come is very welcome but we need to hear what the vision will be if it is not that and how can we guarantee a place for every child and high-quality experiences for every child if it is not going to be public. It is not that we are not married to either; we think it is a public good and it should be treated as that but we are realists. This is not a brownfield site. There are very complex issues to be ironed out. The end vision needs to be about children - access and high-quality experiences for every child in their community.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I thank everybody for being here this morning. With all that in mind, in Ms Byrne's opinion, is the need for a single agency now greater than ever before?
Ms Frances Byrne:
It is certainly as great. We first looked for this in 2019. We were delighted to see it in the programme for Government. We had a little panic when it was not in the current one but the work is ongoing. To the best of our knowledge, it is still on track to open, we think, not before 2028. We would love to be wrong about that but it is absolutely needed. To be fair to the Department, it set up an expert group to progress that. It has not just waited - we watch everything. What colleagues from childcare committees have described is exactly what we have observed. There are in some ways much more demands being but on the childcare committees but there is a lot of improved engagement. Childcare committees are a key part of the infrastructure - so are Pobal and Tusla and others that move in and out - no one talks about the Department of the environment coming out to look at kitchens and all of that. The reason we looked for it is a very negative reason which was to do with the dreadful exposé in summer 2019 on RTÉ, which was terrible. When we analysed it, there were people across the board involved in State agencies who were aware of issues. It is not that they were not speaking to each other; they meet each other all the time but there was no central place for them to share intel and so on. There have been key improvements which we are kind of seeing across the board where clearly the Department is getting ready for the agency but it is just as needed. With a growing number of children and settings, it is more needed than ever. We are hopeful. We have no reason to think it is not coming.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Since taking up this very privileged role as spokesperson or our party on the issue, I recall meeting so many stakeholders at the beginning and hearing about that need for vision or long-term planning and to bring everything together into a structured future for the sector. I came up with páistecare with the idea that there would be a multi-governmental policy that would outlast any programme for Government. While Sláintecare is not without its flaws, it provided the template by which a new Minister would pick up where the previous Minister left off and the policy goals outlived. Does Ms Byrne think there is an appetite for that in the sector? Is there a possibility for that within the sector or a need for it?
Ms Frances Byrne:
There are divided views. There are people who are very concerned, as I spoke about before, ECCE-only where everything is fully regulated and every single penny is going in. People are still very concerned that this is their setting, it is often attached to somebody's home and they really want to understand. That is one reason we say there needs to be a vision a clarity. There will be difficult conversations; there is no point pretending there will not be if people are around that long. It is hard to gauge the level of opposition - that is not really what I want to say but I am conscious of time. In a longer conversation, we could all probably predict the issues that would come up for providers. On the political side, if I might be so bold - it our job to analyse everything everybody in this room, their parties and individuals say. As Deputy knows, given we have said it in public, we absolutely support the idea of páistecare. When we analysed policies from parties in government, not in government at the moment and even before the previous election, there was very little between the parties when we looked at our area. The Deputy is right; it will not happen in one Government unless something amazing happens. That would be brilliant but it is not going to happen, realistically. It would be quite disrespectful of the current system of providers that they would not be consulted. They need to be consulted. We hope the Minister's Shaping the Future will bring in some of these issues. It is complex and things are in private hands which is very off-putting for the State or politicians. They are nervous about going near that but there is a nice side to that we do not see in other countries which is we have accidental diversity. I tell the story all the time; the Deputy has certainly heard it before. I live on a small estate in Dublin 15. There are three Montessori schools on my estate. They are all quite different. For parents they are not but I poke my nose in and look at their inspection reports. Similarly, around the country, outside Dublin, in big areas and small, we have that diversity and community contact. If one goes into where all one-year-olds are in Denmark no matter if they are in the heart of Copenhagen or in rural Denmark, the setting looks the same and it is the same for three- to-six-year-olds. We do not have that. We have great diversity and we should try to hold onto that because families really like it and it is very good for children. There is not a place for everyone; if only there was but philosophically there is a place for every child, whatever is going on in their lives and close contact. We need to be careful about that in the alternative we create. That is why the consultation with providers is so important and with parents and families of course.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Would anyone else like to come in on policy?
Ms Assumpta O'Neill:
In relation to the consultations taking place, the childcare committees will facilitate them through the country. Approximately 51 are taking place between 20 and 30 April. We encourage all parents, providers and interested parties to attend those consultations which we will facilitate. There is a big media campaign about to start on that.
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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Are those consultations in-person only?
Aidan Farrelly (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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That is great.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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I thank the witnesses for coming in today.
We are dealing with community childcare facilities, particularly where I live in Donegal. I am engaging with a lot of them because we have a defective concrete crisis and 25 of them are officially affected at the moment and a lot more are coming forward. However, people are apprehensive about coming forward because children are coming into buildings that are structurally unsafe. When engaging with the providers I can feel the frustration, not only about being in a substandard building, but they also feel they are being taken for granted. They are highly educated and highly motivated and they are providing an essential service to a community. However, they feel unwanted and taken for granted. This is the problem with retention of services. They are constantly looking elsewhere. That is why we have a gap. I will run a number by the witnesses. My children went to a childcare facility in Drumkeen and there is another one in Ballybofey. Fifteen years ago, these childcare facilities had a waiting list of 34 people. I have done the maths. Now, each of them has a waiting list in the hundreds. Even if we built a new building in each community tomorrow, there would not be enough childcare facilities because there are not enough people to provide the services. What do the witnesses believe is the fix for retaining childcare services? What do we need to do?
Ms Frances Byrne:
I do not mind answering. It is like what I said to Senator Keogan a few minutes ago, or the Senator said it herself. It is about investment and, notwithstanding what Deputy Boland said, I agree. I know people who have put their children on multiple waiting lists. It is not that the waiting lists are not an issue - they are - but it is the number of places and the data management and so on. We are confident it is coming, but that is no good to a parent who is waiting for this September, or even the one after that in some parts of the country. We certainly need greater investment and, while it is hard to answer the direct question Deputy Farrelly asked about what it will look like and so on, the question we in Early Childhood Ireland can confidently answer if any Minister were to ask us, and every Minister in recent years has asked us, is, if new investment were to come, where the Minister should start. The answer is always "with staffing", because no one wants to see people on very low wages working with young children. It is immoral and unethical, but also there is a disparity between the graduates in our system and teachers, which should not exist. It is kind of ludicrous. We also know from all the international evidence that it is not that it is magic but that it is a big indicator of sustainability of relationships with children because staff stay. We have a 24% staff turnover, which speaks to quality, as do qualifications. Staffing is the first thing. That is where we would always start.
Ms Bernadette Orbinski Burke:
It just speaks to the point that we need to preserve childminding in these areas, certainly in the west where there are few crèches and childminders are the core of childcare facilities. We looked at Dr. Maxwell's review, who reviewed the regulations initially, and his recommendation is that there is a need to secure good quality standards in a way that does not lead to a major exodus of providers or substantial reduction in new recruits. For us, it comes back to the same thing, which is protecting what we have and making sure the new system encourages recruitment and retention. I am sure it would be of help to the Deputy in that situation if childminders were flourishing in his area as well as community centres.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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The Atlantic Technological University, ATU, is in Donegal and it is training childminders. We see them coming in, but we also see them leaving at the same time. They have come in with hope, and when they have been in the system for a few years, a frustration creeps in. I deal with a lot of these childcare community groups and retention is the number one issue.
I will move on. Has there been sufficient engagement between the witness organisations and the Department? Is there an opportunity for childminders to have an input into any consultations that will take place? That question is for Ms Orbinski Burke.
Ms Bernadette Orbinski Burke:
We have had contact with the Department through the bodies. For example, I am a member of the steering group and have colleagues on the communications group. Many other organisations are represented, but people cannot necessarily have an impact on the outcomes purely by being present. Certainly, when childminders were on some of the advisory groups and the regulations were being originally created or modified, there was some dissatisfaction and feelings that they were present but not necessarily being listened to. It is about trying to engage childminders who will have real input because they are the ones who know the solutions.
Ms Mairéad Hurley:
Just to back up that point, at the time just before the regulations were published, I brought a senior Department official and a senior Tusla official to visit two quality childminding settings, one in Wicklow and one in Wexford. Both officials were blown away by the standard, as I knew they would be, because there are many great childminders. Neither of those childminders is continuing as a direct result of this. That is the reality.
Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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I welcome the witnesses. I am sorry if my contribution overlaps. I was in the Seanad earlier and could not leave. My question reflects on the Childminding Ireland statement. On 4 December, I raised a debate in the Seanad on childcare provision, the new regulations and the growing concerns of home-based childcare providers in light of the new childminding regulations. In recent months, many childminders have contacted me to express anxiety about the future of their work. It is work that is essential to families. If even a fraction of these providers leave, the impact on parents, especially in rural areas, will be significant. Flexibility, continuity of care and affordable home-based options could all be reduced at a time when families can least afford it. Childminders are calling for proportionate, childminding-specific regulation that reflects the unique nature of care in the home. They are seeking clearer pathways for Garda vetting for all necessary adults, stronger financial supports to help with compliance costs, and protection of their privacy, especially around the publication of home addresses. It was important for me to state what they are calling for. The three-year transition period is welcome and has been welcomed, but it must be accompanied by a robust mid-transition review. I called for that last December.
I went through the Childminding Ireland statement, which mentioned that only 24% intend to register, while 32% intend to leave the sector entirely and 44% remain undecided. On the flip side, its request is for a system-wide review. We are almost halfway into it and it looks like we are going nowhere. Childminding Ireland has requested a pause before mandatory registration in 2027. Will it outline what concrete outcomes or reforms must be completed during that pause to ensure childminders can transition into regulation without destabilising the sector? The sector will crumble if we do not keep these people on board.
Ms Bernadette Orbinski Burke:
The Senator will notice that we have asked for an independent review and we want it to be a review of the whole system. We will need to be led by the recommendations of that review. However, a number of different barriers are already evident. My colleague, Ms Hurley, may want to speak about the emergency people.
Ms Mairéad Hurley:
I will give some of the examples of the reasons for the regulation. As I mentioned earlier, we did not start in the right place with this. We did not start with what quality childminding looks like. This is probably a big part of the reason we are where we are. As an example, in the legal classification, under regulation 3, a childminding service shall be prescribed as an early years service. This means that in law childminding is classified in the same category as centre-based early years services. As a result, any future measures or requirements that apply to early years providers in centre-based settings could equally be legally applied to childminders.
On the emergency cover, the regulation requires that a person must be available at all times to provide emergency cover. There is no volunteer who is available at all times for childminders to call upon. The biggest problem with this is that a lot of people feel that this is like their back-up person, but that emergency cover covers emergencies only. If a childminder requires cover for any personal reason, for themselves or their family, this is not allowed. If a childminder needs to attend an essential appointment, the regulations require that they close the service. Whereas in practice childminders would previously have arranged for a vetted person known to the children and agreed with the parents that he or she would step in to cover while they attend the appointment, under the new arrangement this is no longer permitted, so the childminding service must close. That is not going to be good for families or parents.
On children with additional needs, up until now a childminder, if they were registered, particularly in ECCE, could employ a person with access and inclusion model, AIM, frame support, but now under these new regulations they cannot do that. Childminders. therefore, have to turn away children with additional needs because of these new regulations, whereas before they could do that.
The childminding service handbook is excessive. It is generic. Every childminding home is different and how a family lives within that home differs also.
A childminder cannot remove anything from this handbook. It is part of the regulations. They must adhere to it. Under regulation 11, they have to adhere to what is stated in this book even though they did not write this book. It was written for them. They cannot take anything out of it. They can add to it. There are 26 pages in the handbook itself and there are another 26 pages of templates and forms. This is the reality of what we are trying to apply - regulatory tools that were designed for centre-based services - to home settings. I could go on.
Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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I suppose we are at a cliff edge in relation to childminding, especially in rural areas that I represent. It looks like this model is not working.
Ms Mairéad Hurley:
The pause is critical. We need the pause and we need the system-wide review. We need experts in the field, such as quality, experienced childminders, to lead this. They need to be the main, central contributors to this. They understand how quality childminding works and how it works in homes.
Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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I just hope it works.
Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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Our window to make it work is closing before the regulation is-----
Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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When is the-----
Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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Is there not a date for people to register?
Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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They are moving out of the sector completely.
Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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We are going to face an avalanche here.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I would like to start by welcoming the witnesses and acknowledging the great work they do. This is an important issue. I am conscious of the service providers, the workers and those who are often forgotten about in this conversation, the parents, who are passing over their most precious possessions to service providers. Behind that is often a guilt at having to go to work or deciding whether someone should go back to work or whatever. It is important to remember parents in every discussion.
I will start with the city and county childcare committees and Ms O'Neill or Ms O'Sullivan. Going back to the workforce recruitment and retention, which is obviously the same in any sector although we are dealing with our future because we are handing children over, what interventions would help with the recruitment and retention of their staff?
Ms Karen O'Sullivan:
The most welcome development over the last number of years has been the employment regulation orders because prior to those, as long as childcare owners were paying their staff the minimum wage, that was all that was required of them. The employment regulation orders, EROs, over the last number of years have at least brought in a degree of stability and recognition that if you have a qualification, you are entitled to more money. All of us sitting around this table could argue that the EROs probably have not gone far enough, but that is a decision we do not have any control over.
For people working in ECCE-only services, who are working the same as the school terms, the difficulty is they do not get paid during the summer. That is not how the funding works. They have to sign on in the summer. If you are holding down a permanent job, having to sign on over the summer is not easy but that is the way the funding works. That makes it more difficult.
It is an employee's market at the moment. Because there are so many childcare services, we are finding that childcare educators are moving around. They might be looking for a different experience in a smaller service, in a large full-day care service or with different age groups. They can move around and gain more experience.
We do our level best. We do careers fairs. We talk at third level institutions and the education and training boards, ETBs, to students. Occasionally, we get invited to secondary schools as well to talk people about careers in childcare. However, it is a vocation. Dealing with very young children is a difficult job.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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You have to want to do it.
Ms Karen O'Sullivan:
Yes, and that should not be the be all and end all. It should not be that your desire to work with very young children is what persuades you to stay. It should be recognised that through the workforce development plan, through nurturing skills and paying for people to go to university and do their level 7s and level 8s, and through the support of nurturing skills through the childcare committees - we run the bursaries paying for people to do their level 5s and level 6s - there is support out there. Things like the EROs really would help, but that is beyond our scope.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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Childminding Ireland expressed concern that crèche-style regulations are being applied to people who mind children in their homes. Can they expand on what particular elements they see? Obviously, they are two different settings. I would be grateful if Ms Hurley would expand on the current regulatory model. What poses the greatest risk there?
Ms Mairéad Hurley:
I spoke about the handbook. That is an example of it. Another one is risk assessments. They are not realistic for everyday childminding, childminders tell us, if they have to risk-assess an outing, for example. I spoke to a childminder last week who was saying she is not going to go to the local park, pay in on a Saturday in her time off with her family to risk-assess this and have a written assessment, and go again the following week. She said she is just not going to go. It will have a real practical impact on childminding. Quality childminding is warm. It is welcoming. These regulations do not support that. They actually inhibit it.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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I thank Ms Hurley. Ms Byrne of Early Childhood Ireland highlighted the inequities between early years graduates and primary school staff and I totally agree with her. Their work can be compared. There are huge similarities. What reforms would Ms Byrne like to bring in to see this change?
Ms Frances Byrne:
We would like to see a government, ideally this one, naming a date to have pay parity, as Senator Murphy O'Mahony has put it so well. Graduates are coming out of ATU, and my own alma mater, DCU, and because they are working with one set of children, teachers are turning that way and getting €42,000 a year - quite rightly. They are getting guaranteed maternity leave and sick leave. They are above the statutory thresholds. All of that needs to happen. It is very important. Their counterparts are turning the other way and going to work with younger children. As Karen has said, based on the ERO, they would be getting €21,000 a year if they are lucky when they walk through the door. That is not fair. They are both equally professional. They have both spent the same amount of time in university. To be fair to the Department of children, it has done a lot of work to bring qualifications on the early years side up to standard. To say it has brought it up to standard is not doing it justice. Many of them were, but it is all of them now. It is really good. We can confidently say this is like with like and this is not a case of apples and oranges. The only difference is the type of setting and the ages of children. We would like the Government to name the date to bring pay parity between graduates in settings, over the course of maybe two or three budgets, and as Karen has said, build up the ERO. It is not enough, notwithstanding the hard work of the trade union and the employers body and it needs to be improved. It is just undermining confidence and career paths and that is not good for children at all.
Margaret Murphy O'Mahony (Fianna Fail)
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Yes, it passes on. They pick up on things.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I thank all the witnesses for coming in this morning and for their opening statements. I will go to City and County Childcare Committees Ireland first. In terms of childminding, it now has a person in each of the committees that is there to support childminders with Tusla registration and all of that. I presume they are in every county and city. Are the witnesses concerned in any way about the work that they have in hand in relation to supporting childminders? If you take everything out of it - if you know nothing about childminding, if you have no interest in childminding and you are not across any of it, if you just look at the fact that, as per the end of 2025 - a number had already registered - 150 signed up and registered with Tusla out of 13,000 or 14,000 childminders. That is probably an underestimate. If you take everything away and you just look at that, there is an issue in terms of childminders not registering. Whatever the reason, it needs to be sorted out and quickly, because the figure is stark. What kind of feedback are the committees getting on that element of it?
Ms Karen O'Sullivan:
Certainly in Cork we have a childminding development officer, CMDO, and they are responsible for rolling out the pre-registration training programme which all childminders have to undertake before registering with Tusla. It is exactly as it says on the tin, it is a pre-registration training programme, so it takes them through all of the regulations and the registration process and goes into detail about running a childminding service. The difficulty is that there is still a lack of awareness among some childminders that the regulations even exist. I know that there is a communications plan for raising that awareness and bringing it to childminders. Childminders are going through the pre-registration training programme. For instance, we had one recently in Castletownbere and there was a really good turnout. I suppose there is a tendency for people to wait until nearer the deadline before making those final decisions. That is what we are finding anyway. They may be taking that time to make sure that their service will meet the regulations, so that they are doing everything in the right way and they are taking their time.
My big concern is that if we are to get even the smallest estimate of childminders, which is 2,500, over the line by September 2027, we would have to be working morning, noon and night to do so because of the pre-registration training taking time. We can only take so many at once. We do them online and in-person. My CMDO travelled down to the deepest darkest areas of west Cork to deliver in-person training. We are going to be coming up against a hard border of potentially not being able to deliver pre-registration training in time should everyone come forward all at once. There is a perception that because there is a delay and people have until September 2027 that they do not need to do it now.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Are the committees getting any feedback to the effect that childminders who do the pre-registration course do not register? Clearly there is a gap there. Are the committees hearing back that some might wait for the deadline, which is fine - but are the witnesses getting any feedback on the course? For example, if I went to a pre-registration course and I was happy enough I would just register. I would not think too much about it. Are the witnesses getting feedback in relation to that?
Ms Karen O'Sullivan:
Our CMDOs were asked to contact childminders and ask for their feedback, particularly those who had undertaken the pre-registration course and had not gone on to register. For a lot of them it was a case of "Oh there's no rush." The childminders who have gone through the pre-registration training have found it very helpful. They have not found it particularly onerous or difficult but what we are getting back from the childminders at the moment is that there does not seem to be an urgency.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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Are the childminding development officers across the detail of what the inspections are going to look like and are they able to share that information with childminders as part of the pre-registration course?
Ms Karen O'Sullivan:
At the moment there is what is called a pre-registration assessment. Tusla will come out to have a look at the home and talk to the childminder and make sure that it will meet regulations. Tusla has done sessions with our childminding development officers to explain what that looks like. Obviously Tusla is the one that makes those judgments and it cannot impart all of that information to our childminding development officers. It is part of the pre-registration training as to what that pre-registration assessment looks like. Tusla has a dedicated number of inspectors who are undertaking those pre-registration assessments and they are available to talk to childminders. We cover that as part of our work.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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If there was a bit more clarity on that it would ease a little bit of worry among childminders. None of us would like somebody coming into our family home.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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That would help. That is a barrier and there is a lot of concern around the inspection process. When it is not being said or spoken about publicly it is almost adding to the anxiety around it.
I will move on to Childminding Ireland to ask about the upcoming review. I really pushed the Minister about when the review will take place. There is no point in us losing childminders week in and week out when we could just get the review done, look at what the issues are and sort it out. Nobody wants to lose childminders. It is a win-win for everybody that we get this right. We should get it right. The Minister said that maybe it would be in the first quarter, and obviously that is coming to an end. I presume the witnesses want to see that as quickly as possible in terms of the entire regulation.
Ms Bernadette Orbinski Burke:
Absolutely. The Department is saying that it is hoping to do it as soon as possible as well, so hopefully within the coming weeks we will begin to see some sort of movement on it.
To go back to some of Karen's comments as well, if I may, there will be some people who hesitate and wait, but I think it is a very optimistic view to think that if you are doing a pre-registration course now that you are going to wait such a long time to register. We cannot take that risk. This is a massive change-management project. We really have to be honest about it. A lot of childminders who have done the pre-registration course told us they thought that the training was very good, and that they did not have a problem with it, but they just did not see themselves in that new system as it appeared to them from having done that course. The numbers speak for themselves. Yes, there will be a proportion who are maybe taking their time, perhaps putting in some extra fencing or whatever it is they need to do, but there is such a disparity in that only 14% or 15% who at this point are converting. We really need to increase those numbers.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It now falls to me and then we will go into a brief second round. I want to try to get a bit of a consensus because there are three different groups of witnesses. They are all aligned on the fact that there is a crisis and a bit of cliff edge but there seem to be some differences in their opinions on engagement and other things.
I want to get a consensus on the pause that Childminding Ireland is proposing. What are the thoughts of the CCCs and Early Childhood Ireland on a pause? Would they be in favour of a pause or not in favour? We might start with the CCCs. I ask them to keep it as short as possible because I have about five questions.
Ms Karen O'Sullivan:
I would not be in favour of a pause for the simple reason that it has taken 30 years to get to the point of regulation of childminding. It has been a very difficult road for everybody concerned. I think that if we pause it, there is a danger of it not restarting and it going on the long finger.
Ms Frances Byrne:
A pause would be difficult because there is a transition period. It is actually infuriating to analyse the childminding action plan because of all the overlap but that is a side thing. For us, it is really important that it happen. However, we also think that if there is something wrong that is going to stop this but it can be fixed by the Department or the Government, it should just be done. The upcoming review and, indeed, the wider review of the system around shaping the future should really look to address that.
This has to happen. We need it to happen. There will be challenges. We have looked at other countries. There is a temporary drop-off but it usually recovers. Nobody speaks about this because we all talk about centres in, for example, Denmark. I have done it as well. Childminding is part of all the systems we all look at and say we wish we had that in Ireland. It is very difficult and I think that the sooner the Department of children can get the next round of the communications out, the better. This means wider societal consideration-----
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I might move on to my next question, if that is okay. The next piece I want to look at is the overall picture. Childminding Ireland has, say, 3,300 members and they are very engaged. All of them are registered and have done many courses. I would say they are the cream of the cream, even though all childminders are warm, engaging and passionate. We have over 13,000 or 14,000 childminders in general, though, meaning there are still 10,000 who are not represented. Have there been any studies of childminders more broadly rather than just the membership cohort? How many childminders are represented by Early Childhood Ireland?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Registered with the-----
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is that the one you get when you register with the CCCs?
Ms Frances Byrne:
No, with Tusla. You have to be registered with Tusla to be our member but we have seen that number growing. What we have been doing is preparing for this knowing it was coming. For the last few years, we have built considerable expertise from international examples of where we have seen it go very badly in some countries and understood why. We have been working since last year with groups of childminders who do intend to register. We have been doing different pieces of work with them.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Obviously, it is different per county but would the CCCs have sight of most of the 13,000 to 14,000 childminders? Do they have an overall picture?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Per CCC or-----
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Is there crossover between that 1,200 and the-----
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is probably a huge cohort of childminders we have not engaged with so far. We are just noticing that they have not registered.
The next question I have is on engagement. Deputy Ó Murchú wants a strongly worded letter sent to the Minister. I just want to get it right as Cathaoirleach. I think the CCCs have pointed out very good engagement, especially around the new State-led childcare but also in general. Early Childhood Ireland also seems to point out good engagement. I understand that Childminding Ireland has said there has been practically no engagement recently, but looking back, there was the steering group and the advisory groups. I think Ms Hurley pointed out that the Minister and Tusla had not come to see what quality childcare looked like but then did come to see a quality setting. I want to get clarity across the board on where we are with engagement.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Childminders were represented on the steering and advisory groups but Childminding Ireland did not feel its recommendations were taken on board. Is that it?
Ms Bernadette Orbinski Burke:
That was certainly the feedback we got from the childminders who had been on the initial advisory groups. We have not done the same survey of the new groups, which would be the communications and steering groups. I would like to make a point, if I may, and that is that childminding was working. It really was.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I know it was working but we did not necessarily have oversight of-----
Ms Bernadette Orbinski Burke:
Yes, but it was not problematic. We have checked with our insurers and there have not been any cases against childminders in the past five years. Obviously, there are people who should not be childminding in the same way there are people who should not be teaching, etc. We want to try to prevent that as much as we possibly can.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I think that is a part that this committee takes extremely seriously when we are looking at child protection.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We have had a number of sessions this year. We should not be waiting for a problem. It is probably good that we are being proactive here, since it has taken 30 years. We are dealing with some very sensitive cases in here that are five or six years old and you only find out about them after the fact.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I think this is a good thing; it is just trying to anticipate what is coming.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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When was Childminding Ireland's last engagement with the Department or the Minister?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In the short time left to me, before we issue any letter from the committee, the witnesses might come back to us on when exactly the Department or the Minister stopped engaging with them-----
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Childminding Ireland has requested to meet this Minister.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Okay. We can work with that. We will go into a second round and go with the speaking rota. I will start with Deputy Ó Murchú.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis na bhfinnéithe go léir. In fairness, the witnesses have been fairly comprehensive in relation to the issues that exist. This is about what quality childminding looks like and then adding checks and balances. We all get the idea of an emergency cover system that would not work for childminders. We all understand that nobody is going to design a battle plan to take kids a week or two weeks later to a park. That is just ridiculous. As mentioned, rules for centre-based childminding were delivered to those who were childminding in their own homes. That is nonsensical in any way, shape or form.
In fairness, the Chair is going to make sure that a letter is sent to the Minister. I think that is required. The fact that-----
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As a clarification, we will discuss it in our private meeting.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, but I have no doubt. Not that I would ever speak for anyone else.
The witnesses have stated explicitly that they have never met this Minister on these particular issues.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is straightforward. Everyone has talked about "disaster" and "avalanche" from the point of view of those who are leaving childminding at this point in time. I get the point that was made earlier about some not necessarily wanting to see a pause but we have an opportunity if we have the review to deal with these issues. There can be proper engagement and then we can actually get on.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, that is straightforward. What we want to see is a Danish-type model or whatever else, but does Ms Byrne accept that we cannot deliver that straightaway?
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Even if it is going to take a period to do, has Ms Byrne seen sufficient evidence that we are any way close to a plan or road map that can deliver this?
Ms Frances Byrne:
What is very reassuring in the Irish system is that even during Covid-19 the Department of children held a series of consultations and appointed expert groups. We have ended up with what we call in-house "the four bibles". We have First 5, which was published before Covid-19, and is the first early years strategy that Ireland has ever had. People from other countries look at us when we say it and say that they do not have one of them. It is ironic because some of those countries have better systems than us. First 5 is really important and everything falls from it.
We have a workforce development plan, nurturing skills, which has already been mentioned. Again, we were all highly consulted about it and there is nothing in it that we disagree with. An expert group met and published the Partnership for the Public Good report, which included a new funding model, and all of that has either been implemented or is in train. We also have the childminding action plan. What we do not have is the vision needed to knit things together and it is really frustrating for us. There is no sequencing between the plans. They are all being implemented but in different ways and times.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is there an element of ad hocery?
Ms Frances Byrne:
No, to be very frank, it is kind of the way the Irish policy system works. This is not necessarily because it is the Department of children. It is just that you have a job to do every day to implement plan A and you get on with it. There is great leadership within the Department, so that is not what I mean. We actually believe that political vision is needed and a Minister, government or Taoiseach to say this is where we are going and this is where we are ending up, whatever the answer to that is. We have heard that crèches may look like national schools, crèches may be public-private partnerships, social enterprises and all of that. However, if someone stood up and said it will be one, or all of them, by 2035 or 2050, and this is overall direction of travel, it would be much easier for the officials to take out plans, revise what needs to be revised and then there is a pathway. That is our view and that is what we have looked for in the last two Governments.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Byrne is talking about a working public childcare system. Does she accept that there may be multiple parts to it?
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Ms Byrne is talking about engaging with those that are in operation. Many private owners have put a lot of resources in. A lot of private owners say they would be happy enough to shift to a public system that worked if their employees and themselves were given adequate compensation. There is also the issue relating to pay parity. Is Ms Byrne saying that what is missing is a Minister who sets down datelines, guidelines and then drives it through?
Ms Frances Byrne:
No, as Deputy Farrelly said earlier, it is more than one government's job. It is our opinion that we need a political leader to say it. We would then like other political parties to fall behind it, so that no matter who the Minister for children is in five years, it will still get implemented. For us, it is not political party work, it is cross-party, societal work that needs to be done to agree on that vision.
Ruairí Ó Murchú (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We need to deliver on that vision. It cannot be like Sláintecare that goes on forever.
Charles Ward (Donegal, 100% Redress Party)
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I am going to continue in this vein. If we look at this from a different point view, what is the ideal model? Will all of the witnesses answer this question? Is the Danish model the ideal model? I have also heard people talk about the Icelandic model. What is the witnesses' vision? They are the people on the ground and carrying this system. This is where we need to go. We need to hear what their vision is.
Ms Frances Byrne:
I do not know if the Deputy heard me earlier, but this sometimes keeps me awake at night. It is really difficult, and we realise that it is a big challenge, particularly in our political system that has elections every five years. For us, the most important thing is that the people who are delivering services now, including childminders, need to be consulted about what that will look like. There also needs to be a reality check. We have people in the Irish system who are investing from abroad and who are making a lot of money. If there was more of a public model and more of the public management that goes hand in hand with that, their profits are going to drop. All of that has to be considered. There is a big fear politically that places would go. We do not say that we need a political vision lightly, but, at some point, somebody has to be that brave politician who says that it will be done by X date and that we co-create what it looks like, while still keeping in mind what is best for children. It could be that we end up with a number of different options. From a governance point of view, the State-led services could look like a national school with a principal and so on. Others might go into social enterprises. I wish I could answer the question in a sentence, but we just cannot because of where we are. It is not a brownfield scenario or Denmark in the 1950s.
Ms Bernadette Orbinski Burke:
I want to bring to the attention of the committee the fact that childminders relatively earn so little. They could be earning a lot in certain geographical areas, but we carried out a survey recently and the average rate is still €5 an hour. Childminders are self-employed and can make their own commitments with different families, and it could depend on where one lives, but the average rate is coming back strongly at €5 an hour. We are not really in that for-profit bracket. In some ways, we are mirroring what the Deputy is suggesting but childminders need to be consulted. I am sure they would be delighted if there was more investment, and they could earn more than below minimum wage.
Ms Mairéad Hurley:
For us, it is quite simple: make it more possible for more people to childmind instead of making it impossible for those who are doing it. That is the reality and that is what this system is going to do. This is a huge opportunity for so many more people to be brought into childminding, but this is going to reverse that possibility.
Ms Assumpta O'Neill:
As a manager of a city and county childcare committee, I am conscious that we implement policy at a local level. My own county is diverse. Wicklow is very rural in parts, and it is very urban. It is not a case of one size fitting all in Wicklow. It is different. We need childminders. We need community-led and State-let childcare facilities, particularly in areas where the private market is not going into and that is a lot of rural south and west Wicklow. That is the reality. A combination of a lot of things is needed. Ultimately, we need to think about the parents and children who are attending these services and whether their needs are being met. It is not simple to say that it is one way or the other. When I think about my county in particular, it is a combination of many things.
Ms Karen O'Sullivan:
My ideal model of childcare goes back to something that Ms Byrne mentioned. It is that diversity. If I want to send my child to childminder, I can. I do not have to search, it is there for me whether I want to send my child to a Steiner school; a Montessori; a play-based preschool; a large, full-day care provider; or one with small, intimate services. We should be able to provide, high-quality, accessible and affordable childcare to children and parents in whatever way that takes shape.
Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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We are all here to discuss how we are going to regulate the model. There are hurdles. In rural Ireland, every village and town has a childminder called Mary or a childcare provider that has put many kids through their hands. I take it that Ms O'Sullivan does not want to put a pause on it, but I think a pause has to be put on it. We have spent 30 years trying to get this far. It could really undermine it if we pause it now.
We all want child safety but we are pushing people out of the childcare market. It is a vocation. Childcare is what people want to do with their lives but they are being forced out. That is why the numbers in the sector are going to drop. I have not been involved in any dialogue on the letter that is going to the Minister. It is obviously infuriating for the witnesses and for the 3,300 childminders they stand up for. It is awfully disappointing that the witnesses have not had any dialogue with the Minister or the steering group in the Department. Am I right in saying the review is coming out in the next couple of weeks?
Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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Do the Department and this leading body have all of the figures Ms Orbinski Burke has provided today?
Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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They still have not come to the table, however.
Ms Mairéad Hurley:
A review of the regulations alone will not be enough. The review must be system-wide. It must look at how quality childminding works, how childminders can be supported to continue and how to entice new childminders to start. Childminders really need to see that the Department is willing to create a system that genuinely recognises how childminding operates. Therein is the problem.
Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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I stress the urgency of the issue of the communications from the steering group and the Department. I missed the first part of this letter that is going out to the Minister for-----
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is a proposed letter.
Mike Kennelly (Fine Gael)
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As a Government colleague of the Minister, I think that is vital. I do not want the witnesses to come back here in six or eight months' time, in September, and for us to have lost more by then. If these guys are dragging their feet, let us get them out to the witnesses' organisations and sort this out.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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On that, it would be very welcome for us to communicate with the Minister. I have been asking her to meet with Childminding Ireland for six or seven months now. It shows manners and it is also the best way to get this sorted out quickly, rather than leaving things as they are, which is just not working for anybody, especially not for children and parents, not to mention childminders themselves.
I have a question for Ms Byrne and one final question for Childminding Ireland. I will ask all of them together. Ms Byrne's opening statement made really important points on the State-led model, what it is going to look like, what the criteria will be and the lessons that will be learned after the first eight. That is really important because we have very little detail. We had the officials and the Minister in last month and we got some detail. By the end of this month, they are going to have more work done to identify the eight. They will begin on a rolling basis, starting with the first, moving onto the second and so on. There is movement and it appears to be moving quite quickly. However, we do not have the criteria and that level of detail, which we really need. Does Ms Byrne want to make a further point on that?
On staffing, the recruitment and retention of our educators, it is alarming to see staff turnover of 30%, 40% or 50% in some counties. The alarm bells have been going off for a long time now. I presume the witnesses are of the view that the joint labour committee is not working. You might get 50 cent or you might get a euro and then go the Labour Court to see when the increase will come in. It is not really a way to set wages in a sector that has such a recruitment and retention crisis.
Ms Frances Byrne:
I will take the second question first, if that is okay. While I am certainly not bashing the JLC, it is what it is. Negotiations have to happen and a compromise has to be found. As another contributor said, it would be really welcome if the base wage, which is now over €15 an hour, was much higher. The workforce plan is really welcome. It includes valuing childminders, professionalising the role, continuing professional development and some kind of professional association, which somebody needs to put together. These are all really important. Teachers have all of these. We want teachers to have these to keep up the standards. There is no issue with that. We would all agree that, no matter what time in the evening you put on CPD courses for educators or childminders, they will come in flocks. That all has to happen. It is happening and the Department is moving on a workforce plan. However, that is not why people are leaving. They are leaving for financial reasons. Something else absolutely needs to happen on pay. The JLC has made a difference and is making a difference in ensuring a guaranteed minimum wage and providing that confidence but something else needs to happen. We are saying there should be pay parity between graduates. Other people have other views.
I thank the Deputy for her agreement on State-led services. One of the reasons the system in Denmark and across the Nordic countries is untouchable is that it is taken for granted. One of the reasons it is taken for granted is not just that it reduces levels of child poverty and improves economic outcomes, but that people really trust it. The reason they trust it is that, if you are living in a particular area, you know the maximum fee that anyone can be charged depending on their income and the minimum fee. Most of the costs are covered by State investment. Transparency is a good thing. This is a big experiment that the Minister is embarking on. It is really welcome. We wish it was more than eight but we will obviously take it. For us, it is really important that lessons are learned and that the results are published. Even if mistakes are made here and there, let us put the results out and learn from them. Everybody wants this for lots of reasons, no matter what vision for the future different people might have. That is why we are looking for transparency. We really want trust in the system to grow and to be robust into the future because we want it to be untouchable. To put it very simply, we want the Irish taxpayer to have ultimate confidence that this will never be rolled back. This is a good thing. Whatever we learn, we want it published.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I thank Ms Byrne. I have a question for Childminding Ireland. One of the most concerning issues today is the number of childminders with years or decades of experience who are choosing not to continue doing what they love to do. They love it. They would not do it otherwise. You have to love what you do if you are looking after children. At a time when we have more than 40,000 children on waiting lists, the idea of childminders leaving is really concerning. Will the witnesses give us a flavour of the childminders who are deciding not to continue, to register or to proceed and their level of experience?
Ms Mairéad Hurley:
It is a mix of all and for many different reasons. Childminders are telling us that the new system poses many barriers but provides no incentives. There are literally none. I believe it was Deputy Farrelly who spoke earlier about the incentives for childminders. There are no incentives in this for childminders. There are only barriers.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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I imagine that, in the vast majority of cases, childminders have already done what is now being asked of them as regards insurance, health and safety, and Garda vetting anyway.
Claire Kerrane (Roscommon-Galway, Sinn Fein)
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That is where the issue is.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will just go back to the county childcare committees. It was mentioned that the Department has engaged with all CCCs on several occasions to update them on the State-led capital programme. What did that engagement look like? Were all CCCs nationwide grouped together or was there individual engagement?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is a work in progress. It is very exciting and we want it to succeed. In the first year we will have eight buildings. We know it will be not-for-profit but we also know before it ever exists that it is a struggle to get not-for-profits going. Perhaps the fact the buildings will be provided and potentially kitted out will be some help. It falls to the CCCs to help to develop not-for-profits and I would like to know what this looks like. Is there a particular template the CCCs follow with regard to trying to raise interest, meeting groups and going all the way through? Are there guidelines or templates that are followed?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is not a national guideline or template document.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This scheme is very new but the CCCs' responsibility for helping to set up not-for-profits is not new.
Ms Assumpta O'Neill:
We have some guidance documents in relation to governance. Ms O'Sullivan and I are around long enough to remember previous capital programmes under the equal opportunities childcare programme and the national childcare investment programme in the very early parts of this century. We have a lot of experience working with community groups. As I said earlier, and Ms O'Sullivan mentioned it also, we have been working with some groups for 18, 20 or 25 years. In relation to the State-led sector, some of the groups will be existing groups that need to expand. In my case a sessional community preschool is looking to go into full day care. It has been existence for a long time. Work will need to be done in some areas on setting up new groups. It very much depends.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I had a public meeting in my area last year about childcare and there was a big crisis. There were a lot of parents there. Perhaps it was not quite as organised as in Deputy Kerrane's area, which we hear a lot about, where it is all set up and ready to go. If I wanted to support a group alongside my CCC, is there anything I can hand to a group of parents in terms of a template document if they are thinking about coming together?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps it is something we can ask the Department for. There will be eight State-led this year with regard to not-for-profit. Over the rest of the term of the Government we will need more. Many parents are coming together in crisis situations and they could download such a document.
I want to go back to the survey Childminding Ireland did, which is very stark. How many people took part in the survey? Was it all their own members?
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The survey which found that only 24% intend to register. Ms Orbinski Burke said that in a recent survey of childminders only 24% intend to register, 32% intend to leave and 44% remain undecided.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That would be great as it might be worth seeing. The Department will-----
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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And information on what pool it came from and if it came from Childminding Ireland's members. The Department will do another round of communication but there are 13,000 or 14,000 childminders and we have not engaged with a lot of them because they have not come forward. A national survey would be very good to understand exactly where the ones that have not engaged with the three groups here are at. It is important that we get their opinions also.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is it, and they come in all shapes and sizes, such as grannies and neighbours. We will now go to each witness group for closing remarks and we will go in the same order as we did earlier. The witnesses will have two minutes each and we will start with Ms Byrne.
Ms Frances Byrne:
I hope I do not sound patronising when I say I really enjoy coming before the committee. This has been the case for years and not only with the current leadership of the committee, and it is certainly continuing. Some committees can have a little bit of political footballing but it never happens here. It is really appreciated. We watch the committee very carefully and we know it has been looking at something which is outside of our bailiwick, although it is part of our work every day, which is child safeguarding. It is very welcome that the renewed committee has taken this focus. I take the opportunity to say this because it is our first time in with the new committee.
Early Childhood Ireland's policy requests are very well known. We want a new investment target. We are not looking for anything to happen overnight in this investment target. We want to see pay parity and we are certainly very open to listening to other proposals on pay. It is absolutely where it is at and it is the number one priority. As the committee has heard me say, and I am sorry but it will hear us say it again, we really would love political vision. We really hope that Shaping the Future will allow a broader discussion. The truth is that even though Early Childhood Ireland covers approximately 80% of crèches and settings in terms of our membership, nobody has done the groundwork to survey people on what they would like. I do not think this would be fair because we would need to have a question on a reaction to something. We recognise this is complex work but overall it is really important societally, which is why we think there could be political agreement on accepting and recognising that early years and school-age care is a public good and that we would move towards whatever it looks like to ensure, as said earlier, that every child in their own community has access to high-quality experiences.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We will now go to Childminding Ireland.
Ms Bernadette Orbinski Burke:
I thank committee members for their questions today. They have been challenging and thoughtful and we appreciate them. One of the biggest challenges is the disconnect between how policy has been designed and the day-to-day reality of childminding. Many childminders tell us they simply do not see themselves in the new system for a number of different reasons. They do not trust the system and cannot see how childminding in their own homes fits within it. Many feel it will take away from the benefits for children. Childminders tell us even if they continue childminding there will be fewer outings, fewer home-cooked meals, less flexibility for parents and less freedom and ease in the days. They will not be able to offer children with additional needs spaces due to not being allowed to support them, even if the child's needs require it. I will take the committee back to our four requests. We are looking for a system-wide review, independent review oversight, genuine input from childminders themselves in shaping solutions, and a pause before mandatory registration in 2027 to allow this work to be completed. I thank the committee for its time.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We will now go to the city and county childcare committees.
Ms Assumpta O'Neill:
We thank everyone for giving us the opportunity to come here today. We really appreciate it. From our point of view, because the work we do is to implement national policy locally we are in a bit of a different position. We would like people to realise we are here to support and advise all stakeholders. This means parents, private providers, community providers, potential providers, local authorities and any other agency thinking about getting involved in this very exciting State-led opportunity. If members know of projects, and I am aware of some of them in some counties, the county and city childcare committees are there to support people through this process. We would really like to see the needs of all parents and children being met throughout the country, and enough affordable high-quality accessible childcare available, and this can be in many shapes and forms. Because we work on the ground we realise there are a lot of challenges. It will take a long time for us to get to the stage where we can minimise these because there will always be challenges. It is about how we deal with the challenges and about looking for opportunities in these challenges.
Keira Keogh (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank all of the witnesses for the very engaging conversations today. I apologise for the challenging questions, which are all necessary.
It might be nice to take a moment to thank everybody who is working in this sector, especially childminders and childcare workers in the centres. They are doing amazing work, and we need a lot more of them. I am just back from a trip to the United States on behalf of the committee. We have a long way to go in Ireland, and we may be behind in Europe, but they were envious of our early childhood care and education scheme, ECCE, and a few other things we have going on. We have a long way to go but we do have fantastic providers and childminders in Ireland doing great work. Go raibh míle maith agaibh.